The Lesbian Gaze

Why does it feel so...male-gaze-y?
The unc*nsored version is no longer available on Patreon, but there is an extended version: / verityritchie
Spoiler warning for: The Handmaiden, Blue is the Warmest Colour, and Portrait of a Lady on Fire.
Video essay by Ada Černoša and Verity Ritchie
Verity's Twitter: / verilybitchie
Verity's Instagram: / verityritchie
Ada's Twitter: / theliterarybi

[@verilybitchie]

Edit: The uncut Patreon version ended up having to be...a bit cut. But it is still a little bit longer and has more bad words in it lmao. www.patreon.com/posts/lesbian-gaze-74968923

[@lampje5185]

Have you ever considered working with nebula? I can't afford multiple patreons for the KZbinrs I love but i have a nebula account I'll probably keep paying for. Anyway, looking forward to (the censored version of) the video!

[@alexmottierart]

@verilybitchie You might be interested to know that Jules Maroh, the original author of the comics 'Blue is the Warmest Colour' now identifies as a nonbinary transmasc queer/bi. He is very active still in the feminist and queer comics artists scene in France, if only because women, nonbinary people and in general non-white, non-cis, non-men and/or non-straight artists are really badly treated by the French art industry - and their fans. Ps: I'm a former French comics artist, nonbinary AFAB, queer, and disabled, who's left France to start a career as a queer painter and part-time librarian in England. To think I feel more welcome as a very queer person in TERF Island than I was in France explains how Abdelatif Kechiche could do this loathsome film!

[@jaredfontaine2002]

Complains about the male gaze then charged money on Patreon for male watchers see uncensored versions of the naked female bodies. At least the women where paid in Blue is the Warmest color LOL

[@nyshyn307]

Censoring "uncensored" is hilarious to me for some reason 😂😂

[@alexmottierart]

@EJ Tattersall You think me being nonbinary queer and disabled, and Jules bring transmasc and queer/bi are just "a storm of labels"? Well thank you for invalidating our existence, I guess. But also, who asked for your opinion?

[@sarahlizzieful]

I'm writing a lesbian love story at the moment. Someone told me "if your characters have to kiss to seem like they're in love, they're not in love." Trying to generate non-sexualised love and intimacy that isn't just 'gals being pals' is tricky.

[@oof2672]

thats such a poignant way of putting in and a helpful writing tool. good luck on ur story :)

[@duetopersonalreasonsaaaaaa]

Hmmm, maybe this is because I'm on the aro/ace spectrum a bit, but what's the difference between how you treat a good friend and how you treat a partner if not for things like kissing?

[@Tijopi11]

@@duetopersonalreasonsaaaaaa Hi aro/ace person, bi-romantic ace here! The reason writing romance and love is so difficult without relying on kissing or sex on screen, is because...it's exciting. It's not just because people want to get their rocks off on seeing sexy scenes, it's just the way writing is. It's the same for creating male and female cartoon characters. Is a female squirrel and a male squirrel visually different? No, and we don't want to put extreme gender stereotypes in our movies by drawing a pink fluffy squirrel with a rack and eyelashes. But visual difference is much more interesting to us. A square and a circle is inherently more interesting than two circles. In character design, you'll want a short fat character and a lanky tall one, instead of two short and fat characters. The same principle applies to your squirrel characters - stereotypes are frustrating, but fact of the matter is, it's more visually interesting even if at the expense of subtlety. Unlike books, you can't hear the inner dialogue of the characters in a movie. So what's the easiest way to prove to the audience that there's love here? Show don't tell. Saying "I love you" is going to be less exciting than a kiss or even a caress. The problem is amplified when movies only give you an hour to tell a story, and all emotions need to be exaggerated and amplified. We need to keep the audience constantly entertained. Real love doesn't happen in an hour, it happens with steady commitment and affection over months or years. So how do we compensate when you only have an hour of film? Kissing and sex is the easiest way to show a climax of passion and love for another person. Sometimes there simply isn't a way around it with the limitations of media and film, but books naturally have more room for nuance. Oh and to answer your question, commitment and infatuation are usually the answer. How I feel about the person I'm dating versus a friend is going to be different, same as how I feel about a friend versus a stranger. It's a difference in how comfortable you feel around them, whether or not you can see living together, how often you think about this person, how emotionally intimate you are...basically everything a 'normal' relationship has, just minus the physical touch. Allos do this too via long-distance relationships, but they tend to struggle with the lack of touch.

[@sarahlizzieful]

@@Tijopi11 Pretty much yep! As you say, in a book it is much easier, where the character's emotions can be revealed to the audience. In any story though, you can convey romantic love by figuring out what each character in that relationship needs, and having the other character provide it for them. Hélöise in POALOF needs to be seen for who she really is, Marianne sees her, intensely. But: this can be achieved by a non-romantic relationship as well, so the line is indeed tricky. It's why queer baiting is so easy: writers can heavily imply that two same-gender characters are in love, in every way that audiences interpret that (longing glances, intimate touching, even declarations of love) and because they have never explicitly done anything sexual with each other, the writers can turn around and be like: "Obviously they're just friends!"

[@paracuna]

@@oof2672 OMG OUR PFPS MATCH

[@MakaMizuki]

"Um sir. You may wanna zip up, your male gaze is hanging out." This is gold

[@antmack8751]

..plea

[@seraphilight]

Fun fact: The reason Jennifer's Body bombed- even tho it's fucking amazing and a classic- is because they decided to portray it in a feminine gaze *for the horror aspect to make the male viewers uncomfortable*. It succeeded. The boy was never important, it was a story of two girls- friendship, love, and betrayal.

[@seraphilight]

Also, male viewer backlash gave Megan Fox- one of the sexiest women alive- body issues for a long time.

[@greywolf7577]

Yet I don't see people who complain about the male gaze ever complain about the female gaze in other movies. There seems to be this idea that if a movie is made to attract men it is bad, but if it is made to attract women it is good, which is a very biased way of looking at movies.

[@Homesicktraveler]

YES I love Jennifer's body

[@Denmenta]

The reason it bombed was because it was marketed as a sexy horror movie, making use of the male gaze in the trailers, and when the horny dudes got to the cinema they found a piece of media that was not at all what they expected (and thus the word of mouth was that the movie sucked, killing any chance of success at the time)

[@mhawang8204]

@@DenmentaBingo! The marketing was very misleading. It was not sexy girls making out for boys. It was about female rage and intense friendship fringing on romantic relationship. When the boys realized it was not made for them, they disliked it and called it a bad movie. Newsflash: You can dislike a good movie. Everyone’s got different taste and expectations. It’s not a reflection of a film’s quality though.

[@killerfoxes2909]

Listen - I do want to mention this. The Handmaiden is THE go to liked movie for all my bisexual and lesbian friends in Korea. Not defending it, just mentioning how it is seen in the country it was made. Also, I think it is important to understand how taboo homosexuality is in Korea still. There were people, who watched that movie, and were convinced thar the two main characters WEREN’T lesbians or bisexual. Yes, I know how impossible tjat sounds. They liked the movie, but are himophobic, and somehow convinced themselves of some insane thinfs about “they were just individuals who loved each other outside of sexual preference” or some crazed reasons like that. I just think comparing The Handmaiden to any other film in the West needs rhe context of how hard it is to make media with queer charactes in Korea. Maybe those sex scenese, as vulgar as they were, helped the movie get made. I don’t know, I just know queer women love that movie here. My partner’s favorite actress is Kim Tae-ri (my partner is a Pansexual Korean woman) and with the exception of the Nightmare Before Christmas (she loves Tim Burton), it is probabluy the movie we’ve watched rhe most. I feel like “The Handlaiden” being a landmark film in tbe country it was produced in…needs to be taken into account. Anyways, I am done lol.

[@jusagosi]

thanks for this comment!!! i've had two korean friends, one as a teenager and one as a young adult, and both of them had similar opinions as what you've described: "loving each other despite their sex/gender". it's not an opinion i've heard so much from fellow latinos or even americans, so yes, it shows how important it is to take into account how different societies view homosexuality and women's sexuality in general

[@luiysia]

also the addition of the dynamic of japanese imperialism vs korean resistance to that imperialism (and the even greater superstructure of english cultural imperialism) adds so much to the story. for instance the code switching between japanese and korean served a very similar purpose to the metaphor of the gloves in the book.

[@Njeon]

Exactly! Super important aspect to consider

[@lumr.8726]

yeah, this is something that i've seen in a lot of asian works as a whole. some authors always make excuses saying things exactly like that instead of addressing their sexuality properly.

[@yuin3320]

I wonder if these same Korean homophobes are also some of the male makeup users that the majority of American, European, and Russian homophobes would be quick to call gay, and maybe even weak, simply for wearing makeup while having dangley bits. It's so strange how arbitrary these attitudes can be.

[@rosefinchie]

that whole "invisible male spectator" concept is why i thought i was straight for so long despite being a woman who was relating to male POV characters being attracted to women

[@grandempressvicky6387]

Why did you have to expose me?!!!

[@FruityHachi]

same

[@odabuu]

I'm confused, you thought you were straight even though you were attracted to women? So you realized youre not straight and attracted to women?

[@grandempressvicky6387]

@@odabuu Lemme answer by explaining it from my perspective. Since most mainstream films/games are filmed from the male gaze perspective, it made it hard to see that I was attracted to the women in the media and not just relating to the male character's perspective. Furthermore, the male gaze is for other males. I rarely enjoyed seeing women portrayed the way they were (I was a bit of pickme growing up), but when I was playing with my dolls, my protagonist character would always be a straight guy (even during role play). Even when I played MMO RPGs, I would play as the guy romancing all the women. It's only when you reflect on it do you realise you weren't straight whatsoever 🤣

[@odabuu]

@@grandempressvicky6387 so, you're not straight but the male gazed confused you into assuming a male role or prospective when it came to your attraction to women (which you thought was straight because that's what a straight man would do). Now you view your attraction to women from a lesbian point of view which better fits your view of women?

[@illtumor908]

as a lesbian this topic makes me feel physically sick to the stomach and i just really appreciate how directly you talked about it in this video, it was very well done and you hit the nail on the head about the sort of turmoil that i and many others feel about this, thank you

[@pamelotms5867]

Is youre pfp quanxi?

[@illtumor908]

@@pamelotms5867 yes!!!

[@emmaevergarden]

A women of cultur with lesbian queen quanxi

[@safegourd]

I agree!!

[@beeaggro2593]

It's kind of the catch-22. Like you have to be explicitly horny in Eastern media because of how transgressive it is. Hell your pfp is the crowning examples of that

[@larissab.8699]

How often I heard men openly COMPLAINING that lesbians dont usually look like and act like in the movies!! Its almost like sapphic people are still PEOPLE not just a liveaction porn genre Im a bisexual woman with a gay relationship and I dont owe any man to be the embodiment of his fetish, I JUST WANNA LIVE

[@paracuna]

@@vice2versa can you read?

[@paracuna]

@@vice2versa not her probpem if you're too dumb to understand simple sentences.

[@Dis_Dis]

@@vice2versa There are these things called words. You can read them and decipher their deeper meanings. Try it sometime.

[@rootfish2671]

They hardly ever show butch lesbians in movies and if they do they're jokes

[@larissab.8699]

@@JamesGaming257 Ofc men are not a unit but individual people with individual ideals too, i dont condemn all men and Id be pretty stupid and hypocritocal if I did. It was just enough men saying that for it to irk me, and yes if I say there were complaining to me, they were indead COMPLAINING TO ME. But instead of sympathizing or just moving on bc you know youre not that kind of man and that you cant know the lived expierience of a sapphic woman you want your "not every man" badge. I thought it would be obvious that men TM are not all the same but you can have your obligatory certified and worded out "not every man" badge here if it makes you happy dear knight of your people

[@v.4mp]

the male gaze is why i never accepted i'm sapphic until recent years. i always despised so much the way lesbians and women as a whole were and still are portrayed in media. this video made me feel so validated. thank you

[@butterflypooo]

Sort of same for me but how trans people are viewed in the media. At least we got their eventually ❤

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

@@butterflypooo we haven't gotten there.... the media still hates us (tho less so than 5-10 years ago)

[@butterflypooo]

@@transsexual_computer_faery I mean at least we found the courage to embrace our true selves. Queer media still has a ways to go … probably until there is no more need for queer media at all bc it’s just so well incorporated into society and all media.

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

@@butterflypooo thsnks

[@cmegan06]

I am a lesbian but used to watch gay men's movies way more because they felt like deeper queer narratives and were more relatable

[@YYui420]

What frustrates me as a lesbian is that while I understand representation is important, it’s really annoying that some media I enjoy, and is admittedly sometimes horny and smutty is seen as being bad on it’s face value because it’s not high art and might also pander to other people. I think sometimes we worry so much about good representation we can’t just enjoy our garbage sometimes. Straight people can enjoy absolute garbage all the time, but for some reason it feels like we aren’t able to.

[@misspoppyp]

This is one of the views I wish more people didn't feel so scared to hold. While I agree with a lot of points made in the video, I feel it kind of minimizes the genuine appeal to ALL genders of just being able to enjoy your smut. Fuck the "male gaze", I'm a girl and I WAS looking at her tits ! Why? Because they're hot ! Fuck off, it's a movie. She consented to be there in that position. No "male gaze" forced me to feel or think this way, I just do and always have. While I 100% agree that the male gaze can fuck up movies and dilute them into oozing piles of sex appeal nonsense, I also think that discrediting any sexualization of women of as the "male gaze" is ridiculous. There are multiple scenes in multiple *good* movies where men are stripped naked for no reason other than to ogle at their muscles, or whip their hair back and forth and they come out of the water, all these scenes taken from a female's perspective. The "male gaze" is actually just the human gaze. That character is naked for no reason other than because you know you wanna see it and it'll help with rating. We can try and explain away why and how, and we can try to blame men for sexualizing women, but at the end of the day I'm a woman and I do all the shit that is shamed in this video! All in all, I think what's most important is how we treat each other in our day to day lives, not the filth we consume on our own time.

[@cicadeus7741]

This! Im a homoflexible (id'd as lesbian for almost a decade, whoops'd my way into marrying my one straight panic exception) woman and i LOVE sexy, titillating, gorgeous shots of other women. And, currently being with a man who i love **like** a woman, im just as.. pervy i guess. The curve from his soft stomach to hip to thigh entrances me, the smooth rolls of muscle across his back still enthrall me, just like feminine thighs and spines and stomachs. I feel like its expected that lesbians have to be pure, virginal, to escape the "live porn genre" bullshit we put up with. But we are human, and sexual, and voyeuristic, and we can love watching and being watched.

[@jack1447]

@YYui420 Totally agree. I like my garbage, too sometimes. I think this video is saying that if a movie/show is claiming to have good representation and show things from a feminine prospective, they should. Tho, I don’t think it’s bad to like said movies/shows.

[@rougestarlight4308]

OMG THIS

[@Gingersnaps_the_pumpkin_kitty]

Yes this is a good point, but to be fair as a bisexual I have this issue with ALL romance and ESPECIALLY those involving women as a woman. Because honestly people do not know what love is, let alone how to write or depict it. Love is a choice we make in the actions we take and behaviors we display. It isn't inherently erotic or romantic. It isn't even always intimate or emotional. My key piece of evidence is the phrase love thy neighbor. It's meant to encourage you to do well for your community and the people in it. _Because that is love._ And Sapphic Love is particularly well known for that type of engagement due to the nature of womanhood under patriarchy. Men are encouraged to be more comfortable making other uncomfortable than comfortable, even if it means sacrificing other lives for it. Women are told to stake their own comfort on the comfort of others around them on the other hand, even if it means sacrificing their own lives. Women and anything related to them are often ascribed asexuality while men and things related to them tend to receive an air of hypersexuality. If there were ever a concept where a theme about that distinction in philosophy about Love would be poignant, it would be Love between women. *I find this to be a tiresome problem because honestly romance as a genre is filled with so many awful implications in so many pieces of it's media, **_I'm not shocked but I am disappointed._* So I DO think this is a problem, but also you should be allowed to enjoy what we have available as well. I think BOTH can be done. Edit: Essentially YES twilight does exist... But also I would still like some more _actual_ love stories as well as my trash, especially as a woman. REGARDLESS of who's in the coupling.

[@TruceLucid]

As a bi cis woman, for so long i was worried I was just fetishising other women, just like men did, because that was all I could see in media around me ( pg or not pg) It took me forever to feel like I belonged, that I wasn't stealing other people's space, and that it was just who i've always been ( not someone else's fetish) Thank you so much for your videos, you always manage to articulate with so much precision the turmoil I've felt my whole life.

[@saartjhh]

This is so accurate

[@Wwhdduendjdhhfmwosdn]

THISSSSS I’m non binary, but when I thought I was cis I felt so guilty, constantly questioning and examining wether or not I was fetishizing women, it’s nice to see I’m not alone lmao

[@LeafyK]

Exactly. Same here.

[@novelle.27]

same… I still struggle with the idea of being bi because of this. I had maybe-feelings for a girl in high school and still wonder whether that was “real”

[@nyxie2877]

I didn’t realise I was gay until seventh grade. Being autistic, I just assumed crushes were a complete choice and you chose whatever boy everyone thought was cutest, leading to some extremely emotionally loaded masking. That first crush was a whirlwind. It literally had me rocking back and forth in the middle of a concert.

[@SunniestAutumn]

Abdellatif Kechice and Park Chan-Wook really said: "Lesbians are so cool. If only there were lesbians, but for men."

Yuck! The kind of perv who ask any lesbian couple "can I join?" 🤢

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

and then i became a lesbian

[@alexanderfo3886]

"Black people are cool. If only there were black people, but for white people."

[@melancholyman369]

@@alexanderfo3886 race and sexuality aren't interchangeable and aren't comparable fuckwit🙄

[@Cologram]

I believe those are called straight women

[@bread6552]

In defense of Director Park's "The Handmaiden": I'm a queer woman who was born, have grown up, and is living in South Korea, And I can SURE that if this movie hadn't ended up with that awkward sex scene, most of the viewers in my country could not recognize their relationship as that of lovers. (Even though there's another sex scene in the middle of that film!) S.K. has extremely conservative and patriarchal social standards, so a lot of people just can't even imagine the same-gender relationship is a possible thing-and just not a passing confusion. Thus you must push the hardest and farthest to make people latch on to a queer representation. You can argue that then it didn't have to be a form of reenacting, but I think it needed to be like that in this circumstance. Because the scene made it undeniable that they were doing sex in the context of the movie's own story, as self-referencing. I also agree that there were some better ways to do that, wholeheartedly, but it feels too harsh to portrait it as the result of a pure male-gaze.

[@Kayla4217]

as a bisexual, I can now identify the reason why I didn't watch or partake in Sapphic media because it always seems like I was objectifying them by watching, like I felt dirty even though I did want to see what WLW looked like because I was afraid of approaching women in the real world, and now I realize it was because even though I was a woman, a queer woman, I was assumed to be apart of this male gaze as part of the audience. So many WLW live action uses a male gaze camera view that it felt dissonant from the way I viewed women in real life, with their faces and their spirit and other things that made them women, and not just lesbian pornstars.

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

as a trans woman (lesbian) , at 34, i still am trying to find my way out of the male-gaze POV of , er , "lesbianism" ... smh

[@halcyonandonandonandon]

Finally,I feel seen

[@TheLadyDelirium]

I think the male gaze in media, can be very confusing for young women who are questioning their sexuality. Seeing how women were viewed by men didn't correlate to know I viewed women I was attracted to, so it left me wondering if what I was feeling was real. When I was about 19 I discovered writers like Sarah Waters and I finally felt understood.

[@azurda7483]

This is 100% relatable to me

[@Kagomai15]

@@TheLadyDelirium Yes oh my god I just realized this summer that I really have been bi this whole time I just didn't know because I'm not a straight guy

[@sabrinapyun7290]

For THE HANDMAIDEN, I feel like you could interpret the final sex scene as Hideko reclaiming the stage that she was forced onto by reenacting that scene with her lover on her terms. I feel like when you're forced to pander to the male gaze as a woman, it means something to take it for yourself.

[@amarie5620]

That's what I thought too.

[@i.147]

same....the scene they 'reenact' is the only one that seemed to fluster hideko for a bit (she loses a bit of her usual composure, dabbing her forehead with a hankerchief), specifically the one about lesbians. she was never allowed to have her own sexuality as she was forced to play a role in other's, in men's. in that final scene she makes hers something that was meant to use her as a puppet, and on her terms.

[@tuanaarac6074]

I absolutely agree you about this

[@Alyzzardo]

Exactly. Context matters. I didn’t feel like a creep when they were sharing that moment. They were reclaiming their power and being in control. The male gaze left the room when the women were actually strengthening each other in that moment. They ARE performing and we ARE watching, but it is a victory, not a fetish. They aren’t performing for men. I’m so annoyed that people feel this way about that scene. Enjoying the scene does not equal male gaze. I’m so tired of people telling WLW what a guilty pleasure is. The women were actually able to fully enjoy each other without men around, so why can’t we just have that!?

[@bigpeen-whiteliquid]

exactly

[@lydiaausten698]

This video explains so well the sentiments I have about 'blue is the warmest color'. I literally stopped watching the movie, because of the coldness, emotional distance and for me unnecessary focus on sex scenes, that felt stinted. I read the graphic novel before starting to watch the movie and was very dissapointed of the film. Thank you for putting the finger on the source of my icky feelings about the film.

[@TheBiggestMoronYouKnow]

No, no, you misunderstand, that’s just artistry /s

[@sonte.theFoodie]

@@TheBiggestMoronYouKnow No, that's their opinion. You misunderstand, people have different ways of viewing things, opinions, and preferences. Just because the artist made art, doesn't mean we can't dislike it

[@natevans8024]

@@sonte.theFoodie they were being sarcastic bb

[@sonte.theFoodie]

@@natevans8024 That's unfortunate lol

[@sonte.theFoodie]

@@BleedForTheWorld I'm talking about more than a sex scene. But whatever. It's just a movie people watch them

[@wddrshns]

i really like the handmaiden but this is a great video that helps me understand why some parts of the movie make me uncomfortable

[@AW-uv3cb]

same.

[@ellem4749]

yo same here ! i hold it close to my heart but at certain points i remember just sitting there like hmm 😭😭

[@majonaisse3986]

Yes! I honestly thought I was being homophobic or something by being uncomfortable in some parts lol but I'm glad I'm not the only one

[@krose2880]

Exactly! I thought that it was weird that I didn't enjoy some scenes as much as other people did.

[@madeofcastiron]

@@majonaisse3986 omg same. i’m a lesbian and i really love the movie’s plot and setting, but you can never catch me watching the sex scenes. they’re just Too Much.

[@ehidnicus]

I remember "Blue is the warmest color" making me and my then gf actually feel uncomfortable watching it. The explicitly of sexual scenes felt really forced and unnatural and I was not surprised when I learned that director put both actresses through hell during filming. I own hard copy of the original graphic novel and I actually read it before watching the film and the way they twisted it still makes me cringe :^) What was a devastating story about first love, exploring sexuality, regret and loss of a loved one turned into basic 2 hour soft porn for men (as a bi woman i did not enjoy it at all)

[@elise3455]

Yeah I watched it for the first time a few years ago and could not fathom why it had such high reviews. From what little I remember, the characters/story was boring and the sex scenes completely tasteless and devoid of emotion; tailored for the male gaze.

[@angelsunemtoledocabllero5801]

The movies is 3 hours long not 2 and only like 10 minutes have sex.

[@jaxj968]

yeah i remember watching it and it just felt like porn to me :(

[@leonp7235]

Read the book

[@ev6564]

I think something viewers need to consider is that The Handmaiden is also a romance film, not just a commentary on lesbianism or coming of age/sexuality film. A realistic sex scene is not appealing for romance and erotica lovers. Even heterosexual sex scene are not realistic in romance films and novels. I get that people hate the male gaze, but I think the criticisms are too much sometimes. It's like they forget that it is not only men, but women who love passionate romance and erotica. Why do I want or need to watch or read a realistic (AKA plain and boring) sex scene for? Don't women have to deal with that type of sex enough in real life. Now we need to suffer with it in our romance films? And I'm sure many other women feel the same way. Sure, the male gaze doesn't want realistic "boring" sex scenes but neither do women who enjoy erotica or the passionate romance lover. The sex scenes in Handmaiden didn't turn me on, but they were romantic and sweet. It's clear the couple loves each other.

[@jordanbrown3887]

THANK YOU!! I've been scrolling through the comments and yelled "THAT IS THE POINT OF THE GENRE" at some point. I their love was vicerally felt onscreen. When I watch romance - I want the build up and the action! The Handmaiden gives us the whole experience! The film wasnt gratuatious, where it became a soft porn, yet had an amazing show of storytelling that kept me hooked on the film. It's so great to hear people aggreeing with me about sex in films and also that I should no longer feel bad about liking the film.

[@ev6564]

@jordanbrown3887 I love the film myself so yeah, you definitely shouldn't have to feel bad about liking it. The romance in the film was 😍

[@MotherNature43]

FR! As a sapphic, I really enjoyed that scene and it's so annoying how anything with wlw has to be completely deprived of sexuality or sex because it's 'for the male gaze'. Sapphics do in fact enjoy watching women have sex!!!

[@cameronb.9099]

even tho I do agree with you, I found sex scenes in The Handmaiden really boring and not “spice”, “hot” or “aesthetic” at all lol. they just look like straight women who are trying to have sex for the first time, it was really awkward for me. but yeah, other than that, i feel you

[@MotherNature43]

@@cameronb.9099 I mean, it was their first time having sex...

I always found sex scenes between women in films utterly inaccurate, the only exception was the movie "Bound" by the Wachowski sisters. Everything was relatable in that one, the flirting, the relationship between the two women, and the sex (hot!). I'm a pansexual trans man, and in general I find extremely boring the fixation on penetrative sex in all media (het, straight, gay, lesbian). There's so much more to do! Movie directors obviously lack imagination or counselling by people who do have sex 😝.

[@hana-a-cha]

As a (likely) agender person who's somewhere on ace spectrum, damn do I agree. The obsession with penetrative sex is annoying. Actually, I'd say we could have more sexual content that doesn't single in on genitalia, in general. Power to you if that's what you like, but there's so much more interesting stuff some people do in their bedrooms that could be shown in a wonderfully exciting, artistic ways.

[@sarroumarbeu6810]

Oh I love the jab at the end of your comment 😂😂 it seems like it's true

[@sarroumarbeu6810]

@@hana-a-cha I totally agree with you and OP

[@ImAnBoosterBaby]

I want to add Sense 8. Unsurprisingly also by the Wachowski Sisters.

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

@@sarroumarbeu6810 virgin shaming is awesome yeah

[@MrMogarth]

I remember a scene in the Queen's Gambit where the main character was in a hotel room with the chess reporter and they were just discussing playing a game of chess. There was no overt innuendo, no nudity, they were fully clothed several feet apart but the tension in that conversation and the way the scene was filmed made me blush.

[@jade_tayla]

nothing happened between them because the chess reporter character was gay….

[@Gabby-hw7my]

Yes! The tension in that scene made me blush

[@MrMogarth]

@@jade_tayla lol that wasn't the point of what i said you just made a whole new sentence

[@BBaaaaa]

@@jade_tayla please read again, that's NOT their point at all /genuinely

[@sincerelysara3003]

What episode was that

[@sarah_cook]

This was amazing. Totally great. I really appreciate this being free for everyone. That said, the patreon version is even better.

[@guilhermesavoya2366]

We should also talk about the Gay Gaze. That is "male homossexuality for women". It is very interesting how much gay-centered media can be divided into "gay media for women" and "gay media for gay men". Think the difference between yaoi and bara, lol

[@crystalidentity]

I am a mostly hetero (somewhat bi) cis-female who is still puzzled and trying to understand the cis-het-fem obsession with BoyLove/Yaoi. I mean, I don't mind reading that fanfic, since sex is sex and hot is hot, so okay, sure - but I'm puzzled by the *total obsession* of these women, like there's absolutely nothing else for them! Sitcoms like Coupling (by Steven Moffat) simultaneously mock and pay tribute to the cis-het-male obsession with "lesbian" porn (the character Jeff explains it as "a jam sandwich minus the bread, and just the jam"). So I kind of get that. But I am curious to know more about where this cis-het-female fascination with imaginary male homosexuality comes from? Also, it's interesting to note that this fetishization of male "gayness" is way more common amongst very niche nerd/fandom female circles, rather than out in mainstream popular culture, like the stereotypical Male Gaze is. I'd love to hear a cultural analysis of this topic, yeah. 😍♀➡♂➕♂❓ *The Female Gayze* !

[@kwarra-an]

@@crystalidentity I think fundamentally it boils down to the same "motivation" as the cis-het-male obsession with lesbian relationships: one hot guy is hot, and what's hotter than that? Two hot guys being hot together!! same as one hot lady is hot, two hot ladies are twice as hot together. There's some added nuance regarding no women being objectified, etc, but idk a lot of that seems like post-hoc rationalisations.

[@Kikua1612]

I don’t know the references you’ve included, so I really can’t speak to those, but I think the reason a lot of women (esp. straight women) go into male homosexuality spaces, is down to the sheer lack of places where women aren’t objectified and/or harassed. Don’t get me wrong, straight women pouring into lgbtq+ bars is annoying, and I can’t speak for how it feels to be a homosexual man being sexualised by a woman, but I think it’s about the freedom from straight men and the objectification that happens all the time in every day life. In terms of looking at adult media in particular, a lot of women are able to enjoy a sexual moment of one or more people that pertain to the woman’s sexual orientation, without having to watch the degradation of women. I’ve never heard this particular topic discussed before, thank you for posting your comment 😊

you’re right. theres alottt of deep internalised misogyny and straightup misogyny in the queer community that drives women to turn to mlm stories to escape but thats invading mlm space as well. we need to work harder on eradicating misogyny from m/f stories and f/f stories and for straight women to stop obsessing over mlm and completely ignoring f/f and calling it allyship. definitely a complicated issue. and it only gets worse when these women hate on any female characters that interfere with their m/m ship. its a horrible cycle of dehumanising women and fetishising gay men

[@ocean4086]

​@@Kikua1612 this is what I don't understand with the defending of the existence of BL when it's obviously the sexualization/romanticization of gay men. the male gaze is definitely as worst as the female gaze. yet nobody really talking about it. and when bring up the topic. it will somehow boil down to the patriarchy or men rather than the fact that they just like seeing 2 cute men kissing. It is pretty much the same thing as female gaze, yet the reason is difference. the existence of BL series is still incredibly absurd to me on how socially acceptable it is. not to say that "you" (not you in particular) can't enjoy it. but can we actually get real?

[@sensitivedivinity]

this is so important to bring awareness to, I hate how sexualized we are as lesbians. we are human beings, not just a fetish or fantasy. i can’t wait to see more realistic representation, not entertaining the male gaze.

[@harrietr.5073]

You mean oversexualised? Not that you want lesbians to healthily sexualise eachother but stop systems of oppression to sexualise us for male demographics? Because saying Sexualistion means the former.

[@Hextator]

I really love how the comments are an assortment of people sharing that they've had their feelings validated by this video, and of people explaining how different the context of The Handmaiden is for viewers familiar with the culture of the film's country of origin. There are even some great suggestions about tangential "gaze" concepts to consider. Good discourse in comment sections is so important for adding value to any social media post, and in this case, it's like getting a whole extra video essay for the price of just a few minutes of browsing.

[@hey-hg4ks]

as a closeted lesbian teenager growing up in northern england, it’s so hard to feel sapphic and accept yourself as sapphic. i’ve had battle after battle trying to convince myself maybe i like men, i will, right? it’s still not ok to be gay here, and if i was, boys would just throw horrible abuse and derogatory terms at me. media i consume, or try to, is often lesbian or sapphic. 90 percent of the time, it’s either been cancelled, one of them dies or the lgbt representation is a side ship, some part of a love triangle or some side plot they throw off.

[@bendemare5270]

I'm so sorry, I hope it will get better. It is totally good to be sapphi, you matter, being sapphic is pure, and you remain a worthy multidimensional individual. Hug🫂

[@cup_of_tea755]

lesbian from yorkshire here, people dismiss good representation as unnecessary without understanding how important it is for people to know they aren't alone and there's nothing wrong with them.

[@VanEyck123]

Here is what Park Chan-wook said in an interview about the protagonists overwriting the memory of the abuse in the last scene of "The Handmaiden" and reclaiming power and pleasure for themselves, with which Sarah Waters, whose book the movie is based on, fully agreed: "And another sex scene is right at the end of the film in the cabin on the ferry. The act of using the bell, it is mentioned in one of the readings, right? In one of those pornography novels. Some people have pointed out to me why would they actually take cue from a pornography novel which she was forced to read. When we look at our real lives and how people live, even if somebody was able to escape oppression, it doesn’t mean that traces of the oppression somehow disappear altogether. It’s not as if you are formatting a hard drive. It’s not as if you are able to just with a click of a finger start from a blank page. Your new chapter in a new life away from oppression, it still has to start from somewhere and it starts from you who has that past experience. With that behind, even though she had been forced to take part in these readings, she’s able to use an element from that and use it for her own pleasure and her own way of taking care of her desires. And in doing so, I felt, my writing partner and I, that this is subversion. This is inspired by the Sarah Waters ending actually. When Sue and Maud are reunited, Maud is actually writing an erotica herself. And I couldn’t figure it out. Why would she be writing erotica? This is what her uncle’s been forcing her to do all her life. Why would she engage in that sort of activity? And then I realized well she would do it on her own terms. She would write it out of her own volition and this is coming from her. This idea that Hideko when she was reading erotica that deals with the silver bell and when she was forced to take part in those reading sessions, it was an unpleasant thing for her to do, but if she’s using the silver bells as part of giving herself pleasure then it takes on a completely different meaning. And the idea that this kind of subversion is something that Sarah Waters, in the recent conversation that I had with her, she found to be very interesting indeed and she really liked it and she had seen the film twice. She agreed with my take on the subversion aspect of it."

[@arkhamknight5801]

Thanks for posting this.

[@andromeda6801]

Too many KZbinrs don't do any research that doesn't confirm to their confirmation bias.

[@balalaika852]

I don't see much subversion in participating in your own oppression. Waters ending is also not subversive or freeing. If you've been beaten to do something, "choosing" to do the same thing to yourself is not freedom.

[@s-man5647]

@@balalaika852 when you are free for the first time, you may want to do something you were forced to do just to feel what it's like to be able to _choose_ to do it. context matters. eventually, you might decide to stop doing it (perhaps because you got it out of your system, healing takes many forms). after all, It's now your choice whether to keep doing it or stop.

[@balalaika852]

@@s-man5647 I disagree. Plenty of people choose to self harm exactly in the ways they even been abused. The choice itself is not freeing, you need to understand why a person is making the choice. The book is set in an era where a woman could not make her own money. The choice to carry on doing something humiliating so that you can survive in a world which doesn't allow you employment, is not freedom and is not subversive. There's nothing freeing in having to do what you were forced to do out of necessity.

[@AppleStrawberryLove]

I have had discussions with friends about similar issues in wlw romance novels/erotica. There's a lot of them that just always seem to be like "What thing can I replace the male anatomy with?" As just.... the only way to have sex. You have to stick something in there. And I'm just like "....there are other ways."

[@n4l9bx]

I guess 95% of my masturbation doesn't count as a sexual activity, because there ain't no sticking anything 🤣🤣

[@AppleStrawberryLove]

@@n4l9bx Yup. But yeah... there's one author in particular that I ran into that I'm convinced is a man because I cannot believe that a woman would be this set on "You stick thing in hole and that's how you do this." Every. single. scene. "Stick thing in hole." "Stick other thing in hole." "Stick multiple things in." At this point, I keep reading the series more to see if anyone breaks it to the author that "women are turned on by other things. This really isn't the best way to do it."

[@n4l9bx]

@@AppleStrawberryLove Lol. Making your own fun with it, excellent! 😆 Perhaps someone in the know can gift the wo/man a vibrator and some other accessories with a nice card saying 'explore yourself, enjoy yourself' and save everyone from the awkward? ...I'm now already sorta invested in this theory of yours 😄

[@Aaditri44]

And when their brain can't comprehend how lesbian sex works they just assume that we smash or pussys until something happens😔 and then they're 100% sure of being funny and relatable when they do the scissor gesture like hun??

[@mysryuza]

Do those people not know what foreplay or scissoring are? 😂

[@rosannabini2505]

I can't tell you how elated I am to finally see an analysis of Handmaiden that pays proper deference to Sarah Waters. It was a good film, but Fingersmith's story is so much stronger, and it's always kept me from raving about the film like everyone else. Also your analysis of the male gaze vs lesbian perspective was excellent, I hadn't looked at these films through that lens before

[@coolnerdzroc]

I’m a little intimidated by how long Fingersmith is but I’ll definitely need to get round to it. I really enjoyed Handmaiden and I’ve heard the book has a lot more twists

[@rosannabini2505]

@@coolnerdzroc it's long, but very accessible; I reread it every couple of years. Her writing is always fantastic and imo it's her best work

[@angelreader4564]

you should watch the play version if you can. i’ve never gasped that loud in a theatre before, despite knowing the twists!

[@rosannabini2505]

@@angelreader4564 don't, one of my greatest regrets is not being at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival when it premiered. I don't think it's been produced over here yet, I need to get back to convincing my creative partner that we should produce it!

[@RuffledFox]

@@rosannabini2505 I LOVE tipping the velvet but didn't enjoy Fingersmith that much . Not because it was not a good book, I just found it SO depressing it was a hard read lol.

[@gabbee4626]

I feel like the male gaze has corrupted me. I can't stop viewing myself and other women through the same lens. Even in my efforts to train myself out of it or to subvert it, I'm still policing my pov and positions with the gaze in mind. In a weird way, I want to somehow erase my relationship to my body and my sexuality and start again.

[@angelicasysnila5476]

I am going through the same, my gaze isn't my gaze anymore. I wish the media wasn't like this. Seeing all those male centric stuff since a child really shaped my gaze.

[@boredagain1]

👀

[@bonjour570]

same, now im not sure if im acc sapphic or is it just the exposure to the male gaze

[@artheaux666]

Even the things I’m attracted to is very male gaze as well. Like I’ll find myself staring at women and the thought isn’t personal attraction, just oh this is what a man finds attractive. And I’ll even fix myself to be that way, that if I’m not “male gaze” I’m unattractive. It’s the worst. If anyone has a solution pass that my way please 😅

[@sinzones3909]

@@artheaux666 (dumb lesbian who doesn’t think of men here) i guess replace the male gaze with your own gaze? i’m trying to realize how i think when it comes to how i and other women look and i think that’s it? for some reason, probably because i’m dense, i never thought beauty standards was something that was supposed to apply to me. so i still don’t internalize that and the male gaze as something relevant to myself or others. in my head i’m the only spectator- there’s no male to follow. to me, i’m attractive when i follow my personal tastes, even though some of those tastes aren’t universal. stare at something for a while and try to decipher what *you* think is beautiful. stare at yourself and compliment things *you* like (i have a big mirror in my room so i tend to do this often without realizing. just catch a glimpse of myself and go ‘oh my hair/eyes/boobs/hips are pretty today. anyways’). slowly replace the man in your head with yourself. i think part of the reason why people think of that is because they’re told what to like and to live up to societal beauty standards rather than finding out and appreciating what they personally find beautiful. so find what you like, and think more of what you like, and follow up more on what you like. when you think ‘what would a man find attractive’ try to replace it with ‘what would i, the smartest bestest person with the only good opinions ever find attractive?’

[@aztektheultimatewoman]

As a queer, trans woman who does want to write stories about sapphic intimacy, I do often worry that anything I create will inevitably be tainted by my socialization growing up being taught to be a man. That I will never truly be able to view women as being “like me.” That my attraction to them will always be in some way heterosexual. Videos like this help to ease my fears. Thank you very much. ❤

[@WitchOracle]

As a sapphic cis woman, I genuinely feel like your awareness of the issue will go a long way in your creations. If it helps, you can choose to view what you create as one point along an ongoing conversation or progression, instead of an end point of an idea. There is always room for improvement, responses, analysis, growth, deepening understanding, etc. We will always need more queer women to talk about queer woman experiences, so I hope you will continue to create and share with the world

[@aztektheultimatewoman]

@@WitchOracle That really is a beautiful way of looking at it… thank you for your words. It seriously means a lot.

[@aztektheultimatewoman]

@CH Perhaps this is controversial, but I don’t necessarily see anything wrong with men or masc people writing sapphic stories. Not in principle, at least. The problem is the way men almost always go about it. There are ethical and… *less* ethical ways to write those stories. But the simple act of being masculine or a man does not mean that you *can’t* write lesbian content, so please don’t feel like you did anything wrong.

[@saartjhh]

As a queer cis woman I find it's super difficult to recognize what part of my being queer might just be the internalized male gaze. If I were to write a sapphic story I would struggle with this too, it's just so ingrained in our brains. Like: am I writing this with from my internalized male perspective? Or am I being true to my own feelings? It's f*cked up in so many ways that as a queer person our brains and even our queerness itself is in some way colonised by the cishet male perspective...

[@Albinojackrussel]

As a queer cis woman I also suffer from this fear. That I have been so trained to view women through a male lense that I'll struggle to think of, or portray ~them~ other women as anything but this sexualised other. The fact that I had to go back and edit the above sentence from "them" to "other women" feels like testament to this. You're not alone in this worry, it's something a lot of women struggle with. It's very noticeable that my cis het mother will immediately common on if a woman if very attractive and I've never seen her do that to a man. I'm confident she is attracted to men, it's just that she's so socialised to think of women in these terms that she just does it.

[@julesk3816]

really love this video, i think it encapsulates a lot of why i feel alienated from a lot of lesbian romances in film and cinema. so much of the framing of these romances sacrifices authenticity and passionate intimacy for the aesthetics, to make sure it remains appealing to the male gaze. also, i think it's important to note the specific kinds of women who tend to get portrayed in lesbian romances intended for general audiences. they're typically white, thin, and attractive per male standards (as you rightly pointed out in the 'shaved pits' part). even if a character is butch, she won't be SO butch that she becomes too ugly for the male gaze. fat lesbians, hairy lesbians, lesbians with not one ounce of femininity, non-white lesbians who sidestep stereotypes linked to their race/ethnicity, i want to see more of THOSE kinds of lesbians in film and television.

[@astoldbynickgerr]

ALL OF THIS- YES!

[@dragoncup9099]

Thank you.. yes more of those types of lesbians and just women in general. Please .. its all just so blatant and so obvious, dont understand why more people arent talking about this.. perpetual sexualization of women in all media and deciding how they should look to “be women”

[@greywolf7577]

You don't think that lesbians like aesthetics? There seems to be a lot of people with this feeling that "if men like it, it must be bad", which I think is an unfortunate way to view things. Women don't have to like something that men like, but they shouldn't treat it as bad.

[@hildegrim9929]

@@greywolf7577 they should, thank you

[@BBaaaaa]

@@greywolf7577 the idea Jules brought is the fact that the "aesthetics" are currently being the ONLY representation MOST times in the media. Not that no lesbian likes it or that it is inherently bad, just that it's the only thing having focus in those movies/series which looks a lot like fetishizing, 'male gaze-ey' and even a bit of 'lazy representation' in their point of view. That's their point in the comment, not what you ended up interpreting it as :)

[@fionamclary7631]

One of the things I really fiercely love about Fingersmith is how Sarah Waters shows that abuse victims are just as deserving of love and happiness and a future regardless of their own sexualities. She could have made Maude uninterested in sex or porn, but instead Maude becomes a porn writer and is rather kinky. This subverts the victim-blaming idea that only "pure, innocent" victims are deserving of compassion, and that if they were "deviant," they must have deserved their abuse in some way. It shows how the problem with sexual abuse is the abuse part, not the sexual part. Haven't seen the Handmaiden but it sounds like it doesn't go into this as much, which is unfortunate because I think this is a really important theme of the novel. Also, because people online love to make assumptions: of course asexual, sex repulsed, vanilla, etc people who have survived abuse are just as valid and their stories deserve to be told.

[@misspoppyp]

I really really liked that part actually! I was interested in seeing this, but when I saw that it portrayed that victims of SA can be sexual, I was really happy and dying to see it. It's rare that you see that kind of humanization of a victim. It's always humanizing in and infantile way, that they didn't consent and therefore cannot consent. But they can! They are in charge of their own sexuality and the reason the abuse was wrong was not because they cannot consent (too pure and innocent) but because they chose not to and decision was violated (independent and in charge of their own bodies).

[@hadliellehawkins1964]

tbh my opinion of those scenes in the hand maiden is that the scenes themselves are very graphic and almost pornographic, but it's not meaningless, like I think that depiction was an artistic choice, further characterizing hideko in her tortured relationship with men and their sexualizing of her. the "naughty stories" she eads for them have desensitized her to those things, and shaped her perception of sex. So in the last scene, I feel like its hideko and sookhee reclaiming what has been pushed upon them. i really appreciate how the director would have closed shoots during these naughty scenes, so that the actresses could be more comfortable.

[@PotatoHero524]

Yeah personally I don’t see the difference in Maud writing porn and Hideko reenacting it, I actually really hated that scene in Fingersmit

[@jusagosi]

it's okay if they're reframing their sexuality while clothed apparently

[@naomiperez7257]

Yeah, when she reads the lesbian porn it's so disgusting the meaning they gave to it because it's purely for man entertainment, but at one point when she is with sookhee she bites her shoulder softly like the story mentions but this time she is giving it a new meaning, to use it with the girl she loves.

[@PalitoSelvatico]

I agree, tbh I think the scenes are cute, it really feels like they are enjoying themselves and it's how I as a woman fantazise about other women. How can movies show sex between women without it being considered Male gaze? should all lesbian movies be pg13? I think Blue makes it in a way that is almost gross, specially because it's unrelated to the narrative and the scenes are too long. But the Handmaiden is about sex. Also I dont think what they are doing is THAT explicit or strange...

[@Ann-yo6sv]

yes, everyone misses the moment with a handkerchief. Hideko's aunt wiped her forehead with it when she read a heterosexual story, when, as Hideko, she was indifferent to these stories. but in the story with the bells, she also needed to wipe her forehead and at that moment she realized her homosexuality

[@naaaiya]

As an asexual lesbian I find it hard to not only find media with good representation but media without such a focus on sex. I’m not grossed out by sex but I don’t particularly like watching it, so when I see it so often it can be quite annoying since I either have to sit there absentmindedly or skip ahead and break the flow. I don’t want for shows to have no sexual actives at all because it’s a natural part of many relationships and just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean I take displeasure in watching it, but when you’re not someone actively consuming it it brings into question more often than not why they’re having sex in the first place

[@yoannam.2243]

Show with good sex scenes is "Young Royals". And they don't even show the actual sex. The scenes are really beautiful and well made, they show the love between the the two characters and aren't there just to have sex scenes. In fact they are there for the actual plot. So well made scenes that sometimes I feel like I don't have to see it, it's their pravite moment. And the director and the writer are women so that why. Female gaze. The whole show is chef kiss. It's not focused on sex *these scenes are rare and in my opinion that is one of the reasons why are so good* or sexualizing people. It shows how two people are in love and it's beautiful. If we take out the sex scenes they not gonna take away of that but as I said they are there for the plot.

[@theshermantanker7043]

Wait... An asexual lesbian? Ain't that an oxymoron?

[@asterwood]

@@theshermantanker7043 if someone is an asexual lesbian it literally just means when in relationships it's about the romantic aspect not the sexual aspect

[@imnotheather8441]

Asexual lesbian?

[@chappellroanplsgotomanilaibeg]

You'll love Warrior Nun, mostly about ninja nuns fighting demons, but the best show rn with slow burn bi and lesbian mcs.The cinematography and fight scenes are phenomenal as well.

[@joonnhee]

When working on The Handmaiden, Park did collaborate with a lesbian filmmaker though? I think a lot of the points in the video made are extremely valid, but, at the end of the day, who is deciding that just because the women are being shown sexually means that it is for men (in The Handmaiden in specific, not movies like Blue is the Warmest Color)? Why can't it be for women? I don't see any factor that goes into either of those scenes throughout the movie that suggests it was created for men. I'm also curious what people might have to say about the cultural difference. Taking into account that this was made in Korea in 2016, I wonder if any of the criticism changes. Watching this video was interesting and enjoyable, thanks for bringing light towards these sorts of topics.

[@alexhazydreams]

I have to say as a bi woman, I mostly liked "The Handmaiden" as a whole, but I felt really puzzled with the ending. I felt like the two characters recreating that scene as the first thing they do after escaping really cheapens the whole meaning behind their escape to begin with. It's like, now they're finally free to live as they please and love each other, so, you know, of course the first thing they want to do is to recreate a scene from creepy uncle's book. To me there was so much potential in this story: at its core it's a story about women liberating themselves using their own wit. This ending does not sit right with me but I think Verily is right here: the story was not really written for me, as the spectator is expected to be a straight man. It's like I'm seeing something I was never intended to see. "Portrait of a lady on Fire" is a much better exemple of an actual subversion of the male gaze (and also I love it so much omg).

[@AmethystAnna]

I read the ending as tragic, showing that the characters can never escape the trauma of their past and were doomed to repeat it forever, it was the only way it made sense to me

[@peaceandloveusa6656]

@@AmethystAnna It's actually quite common for people to re-enact their trauma in a safe space for therapeutic purposes. Them doing it once they escaped could be seen as them announcing to themselves they will never have to do it on someone else's terms ever again. This would also explain the weird posturing of the scene, as though they were doing it for an invisible audience.

[@eev14]

@@peaceandloveusa6656 That is my interpretation of it.. Something that helped me overcome some sexual trauma was being intimate with a girlfriend in the shower, showering with people was ruined for me and especially with men, but showering and having an intimate moment with another woman was very healing and gave me a sense of what it's 'supposed' to be like. So I don't agree with this type of negative thinking others are doing, I don't see it as a 'dirty' act that exposes some sad reality, I see that scene as healing and making something that was once so scary a positive experience.

[@FruityHachi]

they were recreating a scene from a book? that totally flew over my head, i was watching the movie with poor quality subtitles so i missed a lot of the things

[@alexhazydreams]

Some interesting perspectives here that I had not considered. Thank you to everyone for speaking your opinions in the comments.

[@chucklemaster9809]

The degree which you have to censor this work depresses and infuriates me. Great work

[@angelicasysnila5476]

I think what youtube does is kind of good. Like this channel wanted to explain some deeper stuff about the movie that's why this channel would've used those scenes, but there are so many males who would upload the same scenes for male gaze purposes if they got a chance to, ofcourse which isn't possible because youtube is strict. and to see which channel has good intentions and which doesn't isn't possible, so it's better to just not allow nudity as a whole. This is my thought. I maybe wrong and there maybe other ways to work on this issue which yt can't.

[@quirkyblackenby]

@@angelicasysnila5476 that’s not why KZbin is strict on nudity. It’s because of their advertisers. They do not care about the male gaze and lesbians

[@Itriedbeingcreativebutfailed]

As a lesbian I think realistically portraying sexuality and love is very important. Mainly for lesbian audiences. I was very scared in my first long term relationship because everything about it was so stigmatized

[@cup_of_tea755]

Lesbian relationships always seem to be only sexual for men to enjoy or completely unsexual, which is fine for some but makes it seem like lesbian sex is somehow dirty or problematic.

[@MISSMADISONMEDIA]

@@cup_of_tea755they literally want us to think the concept of a “lesbian” is pornographic in nature. You cant even search the hashtag lesbian on social media because they assume its porn. Try it!! It’s sad asf

[@docopoper]

I've always found suddenly becoming aware of the male gaze kinda sickening as an AMAB trans person. It feels like being assumed to hold an identity that is so fundamentally antithetical to how I want to be seen and how I want to treat people. Like I'm being assumed to be the exact sort of person I fear people will imagine me as when trying to be myself in women's spaces. It's so yuck.

[@skycharts7054]

That hit way too close to home! :') I'm also a AMAB trans person who started identifying with that not too long ago, and something that really makes me feel dirty is trying to be myself as a woman, but I notice some "masculine" behavior that were taught to me still ingrained in my own behavior. And that just makes me feel bad, like this is something I can't get rid of y'know. But that's something that we can work to not get in our way eventually! Thanks for the reflection!

[@alymaldonado]

It can even be disencouraging to feel like you have attached the male gaze (and other male stuff) to oneself. At least for me, I was even thinking about that I'm actually cis because I was just angry about all that male socialization and I wanted just to get rid of it and at the same time it was so hard to get rid of it that I thought it was just part of my personality.

[@jan_Masewin]

As a gay transfemme my own attraction feels like a cancer inside me because of an awareness of the male gaze. How can I possibly like women and still respect them at the same time? Male socialisation has had no solution

[@TransTheVoid]

For me, long before I realised I'm a trans woman, I had started avoiding looking directly at people, because I did not want to even be assumed to look at anyone in such a way. It was disgusting to even think about reducing people to just sexual objects and like, I wasn't even thinking about it in terms of gender and sex of the observer and their target. Rather, just the idea itself of objectification of people had always seemed abhorrent to me. It didn't stop me from enjoying porn, but there was a difference, since porn was designed to be sexual. Even then, I never got those discourses about which part of woman's body is the most sexy.

[@johnmacdonald9857]

As a cis man I feel the same way. I hate having my identity automatically associated with predation and the male gaze. I am cis but I am quite gender-nonconforming too and I like to hang out with girls and exist in women's spaces. But I've always felt I need to make it obvious that I am queer or gnc in some way. So even though my expression is quite fluid (I like to be more masc some days and more fem others) I find myself presenting masc way less often than I want to because I've afraid of being perceived as a predator or an 'outsider' just for looking cishet. I think this something that is not talked about enough, whether in relation to the experiences of AMAB trans folk or even just cis men. I've also found that I shy away from 'checking out' girls due to my awareness of the male gaze and my desire to not be associated with straight men, but I find it is generally exceptable for me to look at other guys. It definitely feels like there is a double standard here and I don't know how we go about dealing with it. I think what it seems to reveal to me is that we are too wary of cishet men just existing (cis men shouldn't be ashamed just for having attraction to people) but in the other direction we maybe aren't wary enough of predation that comes from someone who isn't a cishet man.

[@Suited_Nat]

I relate to this title omfg- like I see myself as bi- but it’s so annoying to see women x women relationships made for men.

[@insertunoroginalnamehere6189]

@@vice2versa maybe because usually if a lesbian love story is targeted towards hetero men, it might just fetishize it or show stuff that hetero men would "usually" "want" to see (same for boy love targeted towards women) but I'm not sure

[@TacticusPrime]

My friend often complains that he can't read m/m fanfic for the same reason. It's, 99% of the time, made for straight women and clearly has their gaze.

[@musicjunk1000]

you are right.

[@theshermantanker7043]

@@user-xq9lt6ij2s Fairly certain the other guy is talking about how men are being shamed for this sort of thing in the movies in the first place (male gaze and whatnot), when most aren't actually responsible for it aside from a few weirdos, which is sort of a half truth half inaccurate statement in a way

[@user-fl8ye2ge3r]

@@insertunoroginalnamehere6189 menos don't watch romance,LoL, usually womens are the main targe.

[@Spoz20]

Don't get me started on this topic in regards to anime. Lesbians have been used as bait in idol anime and slice of life anime just to get their mostly male audience even hornier for the characters.

[@mari-us6zg]

How crazy! I just watched the handmaiden on Monday, so I’m excited for this video.

[@princessrailgun9223]

I read the Fingersmith late last year and oh my god it was such a ride to read. I loved pretty much every second of it and I had no idea there was so many films based off of it. I read Tipping the Velvet (by the same author) before that and I 100% recommend it to any one who liked Fingersmith. It was these books that reignited my love for reading again

[@TheLadyDelirium]

Sarah Waters books are so good. The unexpected twists in The Fingersmith were amazing to read, I wish I could experience it again for the first time. I first read it almost 20 years ago but it's great to know that they are still gaining new fans.

[@heda_k7258]

OMG Love Fingersmith! Sarah Waters is brilliant. Read Affinity by her.

[@princessrailgun9223]

@@heda_k7258 lol im actually reading that right now!

[@heda_k7258]

@@princessrailgun9223 a woman of refined taste I see.. haha. ugh I’m like green yellow, you are in for a treat! Wish there was a Sarah Waters bookclub to discuss them with. Do you know of any? Maybe one should be started.

[@princessrailgun9223]

@@heda_k7258 unfortunately, no i dont know any. the book club i currently attend is mostly lgbt and online so i have at least recommended her stuff to other people! do you know of any other books that are queer historical fiction? i started with She Who Became the Sun and i've been on a frantic search for more ever since

[@izzyolsson5269]

When I was in my mid teens, I bought Fingersmith at a book sale for $1, with ZERO knowledge of any lesbian content (nothing on the blurb alludes to it, I swear!). My Baby Queer mind was blown. I simply couldn't comprehend reading historical fiction (my favourite genre at the time) written by a woman (who is a lesbian) about lesbians. I'd still say it's one of my all time favourite books.

[@cvbattum]

Fingersmith is a brilliant novel, one of the best I've read. If I may be so free to recommend more historical lesbian books that I thought were absolutely fantastic, for anyone coming across this wanting more, look at Last Night At The Telegraph Club (Malinda Lo, married to a woman) and Fried Green Tomatoes At The Whistle Stop Cafe (Fannie Flagg, self-identifying lesbian). Honestly for representation I'd recommend the latter even more, because the lesbian relationship is never explicited in the book ever. Anyone with half a braincell can read between the lines that the two women are really in love with each other, but it's never ever shown.

[@yorick2284]

I enjoyed Handmaiden a whole lot, and then when the last scene came up, I felt so... cheated. Like "I thought you were on my side, movie. And here it is, the scene for men to gaze upon'.

[@dontpanic5278]

That's the part I disagree with. The handmaiden is about women reclaiming their sexuality. When freed from the controlling men in their lives by escaping on the boat, they are free to enjoy their own sexuality for themselves. The metal orbs that used to be symbols of abuse are the clear metaphor for the liberation. You could argue that the sex scenes are a bit too dolled up, but so is the visual style of the entire movie. Every shot is very painterly, so it makes sense for the sex scenes to be shot the same way.

[@Beth-ky6db]

​@@dontpanic5278 where can you watch the movie?

[@Ummmmmmmm841]

@@Beth-ky6db its on netflix for me

[@skabadabadooo534]

@@dontpanic5278 for sure but why did sookhee say she wanted to breastfeed hideko in the sex scenes that is so fetishy and creepy you cannot tell me otherwise

[@asverith]

It wasn't on your (or my) side at all, it was like this the whole time. Off-puttingly so. I don't get why it gets so much praise for being "subversive" at all

[@chickennoodles8451]

Thank you for talking about this, I was trying to figure out why the handmaiden just wasn’t sitting completely right with me, this was very liberating :)

[@MaxiGoethling]

I knew nothing about Blue is the Warmest Colour when I watched it a few months ago: it started out so promising at first, but then it got worse and worse, by the end I was just left speechless and actually mad at what I just witnessed.

[@danielaardila5081]

That was my issue with The Handmaiden, I love the movie, but definitely the sex scenes in a second rewatch (and a few years later) hit very different and not in a positive way, without the original story this would've been the scenes that I would've change, the sex scenes feel like many lesbian sex scenes feel, like a show and not a very personal and intimate moment between this two characters. I love how you take things that are very loved and respected and tare them to pieces to see a different, and sometimes obvious, perspective.

[@Beth-ky6db]

where can you watch the movie?

[@PalitoSelvatico]

I disagree, they look really intimate to me. the close ups, the way they look at each other smiling, the first one starts with them looking for comfort and trying to please each other. Ask yourself how a scene of sex between lesbians should be filmed to be considered correct?

[@elevatornotworthy5781]

@@PalitoSelvatico A realistic one that is not pornographic it's not that complicated

[@mr.rainc0at614]

I think director Park's intention towards that scene is very hit-or-miss. It's meant to make you uncomfortable. Park has always thrown a message towards his audience and the question here is simple; aren't you not drawn to this pornography? Is this not giving you some f'ed-up entertainment? Quite frankly, it's just really executed questionably because, well, Park is a man. And he just couldn't convey that idea without gazing with his own, male, eyes.

[@the_crypter]

​@@elevatornotworthy5781 No offence but it's such a reductive and simplistic take, it's a movie lmao, that's like saying every movie should be a documentary because 'it should be realistic, it's not that complicated'. When every scene is almost framed in a 'painting' way in handmaiden sexual or not, why do you want the sex scenes to be like amateur realistic porn with unshaved hair ? What do you want, the whole movie to be cinematic with great lighting, framing, blocking and shot composition but when it comes to sex scenes lets just give 100 bucks to 2 actual female lesbians, tell them to have sex, film it with a go-pro and put that in the movie ?

[@scarlb12]

I agree with your comments about the framing of the final sex scene in Handmaiden but I happened to rewatch the movie literally yesterday and noticed something about the bells I previously missed. The bells were extremely silly but I did think they were meant to be something Hideko had always wanted to try or perhaps the one story from those books that she actually connected with. During the blackout she is able to keep telling the bell story without reading it, which I interpreted as being because she liked it. It would have been better if afterwards she was like well glad I got to try that but it was better in theory than in execution, and also a bell cannot ring while muffled inside an orifice.

[@EroticInferno]

They are different when you consider that this is a Korean film where nudity and especially same-sex nudity are never portrayed. It’s not like the west where you see sexualization of characters constantly. That’s much rarer in Korean films, especially Korean period pieces. Showing full body nudity of same-sex individuals is a huge step in normalization. Especially because it shows it happening in the past.

[@GomushinGirl]

As someone who lives in Korea and has been watching Korean films for decades now, let me assure you, nudity in film is common here. While TV media (used to be) more conservative, film for a very long time has featured lots of sexualized characters and situations, including nudity and sex scenes. There have even been portrayals of same-sex relationships in Korean film prior to the Handmaiden, although few were quite as graphic. Heck, the King and the Clown (a period piece) predates the Handmaiden by more than a decade, shortly followed by yet another gay historical piece, A Frozen Flower. Momento Mori presented a lesbian relationship almost twenty years before the Handmaiden, and Yellow Hair was an erotic thriller centered on lesbians from the same year. Handmaiden was explicit, but it wasn't the first in any real sense except for its commercial acceptability, possible because of Park's previous success as a commercial director and international film darling on the festival circuit.

[@dundundun7215]

I don't think he was normalising anything, that last scene looks vulgar, not intimate or even seductive. It makes you extremely uncomfortable, i don't know if it was the intention but thats what it felt like to me watching even censored

[@AngelofEresos]

@@dundundun7215 "It makes you extremely uncomfortable" No. No it does not. It makes me feel prideful. It makes me feel like the stage the women were once forced to dehumanize themselves upon has been reclaimed. Its vulgarity is a display of power. Much like how Mary Read was said to pull her shirt down to reveal her breasts to an enemy she just slew, to make them realize they had been killed by a woman. Sure, it might be a vulgar display that could titillate the male eye, but it isn't _about_ that. It's about saying "fuck you" to the patriarchal mechanisms of control that held these women's power hostage in the very moments they steal that power _back._ That's how it makes _me_ feel. How could I ever be unnerved by, as they read to me, brash declarations of female empowerment?

[@cocomuffin4666]

​@@AngelofEresosbrilliantly put

[@sk8085-b]

I'm so happy that many people are helping others understand the cultural context of THE HANDMAIDEN in the comments

[@ladymorwendaebrethil-feani4031]

At least in Pride's text, it is understood that the "lesbian gauze" would necessarily be a romantic asexual gaze... I cannot understand this, because this whole discourse is based on the premise of the existence of a feminine essence where women are incapable of have sexual desire for other women. This all seems to be based on that sexist idea that "men are visual and women are romantic". This completely erases the potential positive impact that the sexually desiring female gaze could have (and has) on feminist artistic production, on the one hand, and on the other hand, it all silences the victims of sexual abuse committed by women, because all of this is part of an essentialist vision. where women never look at someone with sexual desire, let alone dehumanize and abuse other people, especially other women. The problem with male gauze is not the man's sexual desire, it's the narcissistic desire for dominance that men possess because they feel they need to dominate women in order to rise in the patriarchal hierarchy. This desire is actually less sexual than power. For men, sex is a tool for displaying their power and it is because of this that women are reified, who become a commodity or an asset to be negotiated, disputed and displayed by men in competition. Male gauze is not the result of simple sexual desire, this desire itself is actually natural and innocent. Misrepresentation occurs because the man is not desiring the woman herself and also that she desires him. He wants other men to desire his dominance, demonstrating that he is capable of subjugating women, so much so that besides homosexuality, the most despised trait within men's circles is the submission of a man to his female partner. When a man does this, he loses his status in the men's group. Ignoring that there is a whole structure of male competition that causes this gauze is essentializing the phenomenon and thinking that "the female gaze is always pure and chaste". This is basically returning to the patriarchal Christian view that women can only be virtuous (not forgetting the etymology of the term here) if they are chaste. In this way, the lesbian woman herself appears in the discourse as a pure and chaste Diana who does not sexually desire her partners, but only platonically admires them. Amazing how sex is still demonized. The result of this is that sexuality is more repressed in society and men become increasingly competitive and aggressive. This is the great blind alley that contemporary feminism has entered. We need to liberate sexuality from the dehumanizing sexist logic of competition and the pursuit of power. As long as this exists at a more fundamental level, nothing will change, and considerations that reinforce the essence of one gaze or another will only reinforce the underlying logic.

[@Aaditri44]

I do enjoy ""sexy"" lesbian content that would problably get described as "male gaze" even tho I wouldn't call it that, so I kinda feel that many people want to completely eradicate lesbian sexualization as it is tiring and uncomfortable, but they end up trying to cancel any type of explicit sexual intercourse that is appealing to the viewer, just because it's not a realistic sex scene it does not mean it's unappealing for women, I agreed on many points of the video but after reading your comment I think you're the one I agree with the most

[@fuchsfarben]

The fact that a majority of men (sadly) only connect intimacy with overt sexual actions is something that jumps out with this too. And that's so sad, I wish the whole "men don't show emotions" bullshit would've never happened, they get deprived of so many meaningful and amazing experiences because they are emotionally stunted in a way, where they have to learn to see intimate moments in things other than sex, like a freaking newborn.

[@KossolaxtheForesworn]

well we men are expected to be stoic, and its like the only way to show emotion is to be a crybaby. its like the only 2 things that seem to exist for guys. no one says "Oh you should be allowed to feel pride about x" or "oh you should let your self be happy" no, its always on about how men should cry. edit. also just cos men dont show emotion doesnt mean we dont feel it. id say a good portion of us are suicidally depressed, but our pain is not taken seriously so we dont talk about it and only suffer in silence. so its like "you should show emotion. NO!! NOT LIKE THAT!!"

[@paulgibbon5991]

@@KossolaxtheForesworn While we're talking about harmful ideas that filter into us through media, I think that at least some people imagine that "getting a man to open up" is like the scene in so many romance novels where the brooding and scarred hero reveals the one discrete incident that turned them into an aloof misanthrope, following the loving ministrations of the heroine, and once that single confession is out of the way, he immediately goes to being perfectly well-adjusted. It's never messy or ugly, it's never long-term trauma that builds up from hundreds or thousands of "little things", and it never goes on too long.

[@harry31619]

What more passionate than sex? Besides being sexual what else is there?

[@raven3moon]

@@harry31619 Being passionate just means that you have very strong feelings about something. You can be passionate about reading, sports, art, dancing, history, cooking. It's anything you enjoy a lot. If the only thing you think you're allowed to really enjoy is sex, then you're severely limiting how you experience life.

[@theagaram9581]

@@harry31619 oh wow do some men actually think that sex is the only passionate thing in the world?

[@SchatzInaoriginal]

As a bi woman I remember feeling insecure and worried about being so turned off by the depiction of intimacy in the handmaiden. There is so little sapphic media out there that I feel pressured to enjoy and feel represented by even the smallest crumbs we get. I do remember feeling a sort of fetishization in those posed scenes stated in this essay. That those depicted moments were very far from feelings I could identify with and were even low key triggering. I think there used to be a phase in my life when I would happily allow men to fetishize my attraction to women, because back then it was the only positive response I ever got to my sexuality and after being discriminated against, made to feel dirty and wrong for same sex attraction, having someone happily lust over you seemed like somewhat of an improvement, because it often came with the so sought after ✨male validation ✨ I think it's also part of why I sometimes felt uncomfortable in pursuing my authentic desires for women, because there was this very subconscious idea of engaging in this performance. To follow the script invented by men, as the characters end up doing in the movie. So to go for conventionally attractive women. The main way I learned to desire women was modelled after examples I've seen that were reeking for the male gaze, so I initially tried to reproduce it. After some actual exploration and consuming more media made by and for LGBT people I'm realizing that it's completely different dynamics and things that make sapphic relationships joyful and attractive to me. I find myself much more attracted to unconventional looking people and I found that intimacy has been much more rewarding as an act of mutual exploration instead of the idea of each person trying to consume the other in some way. It was really interesting and helpful to see some of these feelings explored in this video!

[@Kikua1612]

I can relate to this far too much! Thank you for commenting 😊

[@Gnomereginam]

I feel like I might be bi but every time I've tried to analyze it, I've tried to see women as they're portrayed in media for men and decided I'm not into them. But I think the male gaze just might be the problem. I mean I don't watch Edge of Tomorrow for Tom Cruise...

[@greywolf7577]

The problem I have is that there is this idea that "the male gaze" is bad because it is something men like and women don't. But we don't demonize women for liking certain things sexually. If a woman finds a man attractive, no one claims she is "fetishizing him". There is too much of this idea that "if men like something, therefore it is bad". We need to break out of that.

[@rumjhumgupta7137]

@@greywolf7577 I completely agree. I see so many women being obsessed with bl but dont think thats fetishization? Both men and women are capable of finding people attractive and also objectifying.

[@bendemare5270]

thanks for commenting 💗💜💙 bi is awesome

[@eat_pray_porg8450]

Came across this video essay somehow by accident/the algorithm. I'm a cis-het, Gen X man who has slowly been trying to deprogram a lot of the patriarchal programming that I have undergone as an unknown participant since...forever. I honestly don't have anything helpful to say, as I am obviously not a woman or a lesbian. But this was very educational to me and has definitely added another dimension to explore in my ongoing therapy. Thank you.

[@tamatebako_yt]

The humility in your comment really spoke to me. I was immediatedly like: Aww, you don't have to say that...don't beat yourself up about that sort of stuff. Not sure what that says about me. Because, maybe you should. Maybe you should in the same way I feel bad when I do something wrong I did not intend to. It's actually a good way to come to terms with oneself and one's past, as long as you don't hold onto it. Tomorrow is always more important! Regardless, hope you're doing well in your life!

[@Darkrose517]

I've seen "Fingersmith" the mini-series and I loved it, but I've never actually seen The Handmaiden, I think I'll definitely watch it now, even though it makes me sad that it defers so much from the book's end.

[@SeleneSalvatore]

And "Tipping the velvet" adaptation too is nicely done as TV mini-series

[@RainyDayWolf]

If you love Fingersmith I don't recommend Handmaiden it's unnecessarily disgusting.

[@the_crypter]

@@RainyDayWolf I kinda disagree, unless you are like 16 who can't look at shades of grey, The Handmaiden is much more well made by any metric of objective comparison, regardless I think it's mostly the western audience which has issues with The Handmaiden because the movie is pretty universally celebrated especially among Korean and Japanese lesbian circle which I guess has to do with the acceptance surrounding homosexuality which is still pretty much a sin in most non-western countries.

[@hildegrim9929]

@@the_crypter well, I'm 22 and found this movie absolutely disgusting. What an ageism

[@the_crypter]

@@hildegrim9929 No, the point wasn't the actual age, it was to highlight the immaturity of being unable to see the complexity and reasoning behind certain things. People are like, 'The lesbian sex scenes aren't realistic', but I want to say, it's not a documentary.... The entire movie is unrealistic, it's intentionally directed and shot in a very 'every frame a painting' kind of way. So I have no clue why people expect the sex scenes to be suddenly realistic ? It's not an amateur high school film project. Even the sex scenes are shot in an artistic way with things like symmetry/blocking/framing in mind, which are all very intentional. I am sure some people would have found the movie not 'disgusting' if they had just paid a couple of actual lesbians few bucks to have sex and shot it with a GoPro and then put that in the movie ? The '16 year old' part is actually about the people thinking the movie is objectively bad because of few seconds of sex scenes which some western people personally don't enjoy, which is just being delusional.

[@SamWiseGamgee42]

Portrait of a lady is the best lesbian movie I have ever seen and I'm a lesbian I'm obsessed

[@SamWiseGamgee42]

Also the director is a lesbian

[@amarevanhook7453]

That movie smacks

[@soomi]

As a lesbian: Thank you! People always wonder and ask me if I'm into any lesbian media/series on tv, etc. I just can't mention anything other than that I watch real authentic lesbian creators on youtube, because that seems to be my only source that gets it. I do watch some Asian lgbtq+ drama series for fun, but they are 100% straight gaze for sure. While it's funny once in a while I can't fully take it seriously most of the time. I def. hope queer media quickly gets serious, so I can finally watch some of it.

[@manicuregroove]

as a lesbian, my recommendations are

[@robin-hr7tc]

​@@manicuregroovei am homophobic

[@bigpeen-whiteliquid]

you when lesbians do anything sexual: male gaze

[@cup_of_tea755]

@@bigpeen-whiteliquid The male gaze is just media made with an assumed audience of men and shockingly most lesbians don't cry male gaze whenever they see lesbians being sexual.

[@JordanSullivanadventures]

Honestly I don't feel like the Handmaiden is particularly male gazey. I know I'm biased toward liking Park Chan Wook's work in general, but I really felt that the work was subversive and empathetic towards its sapphic protagonists. As an AFAB enby, I found the Handmaiden both very fun to watch, as there's a lot of mystery and double crosses, and very hot! I hated BITWC and honestly couldn't even finish it bc it didn't connect with me in the slightest. I wouldn't put these two films in the same category. I wish I could find Portrait of a Lady compelling or sexy, but it just didn't really do it for me. Idk personal taste.

[@KB-ug3zn]

The handmaiden is literally a critique of the male gaze, like that’s literally one of the main themes it’s going against in the film idk how people think it IS “male gaze-y” just bc the women have kinky sex. Like the last scene particularly even if you think it’s cringe has a intended purpose. She’s reclaiming her sexuality with someone she loves instead of being forced to do it. And what she knows about sex she knows from those books she was forced to read. Not sure where people’s media literacy went when it comes to this film.

[@KB-ug3zn]

I also agree with you about portrait of a lady on fire, nothing was compelling about that movie in the slightest, to me personally.

[@AleAKiM312]

@@KB-ug3zn verily isn't saying the handmaiden is male gaze-y because the two female characters have kinky sex..... it's male-gaze-y because of the way the female characters are framed/posed within the sex scenes... a director can attempt to critique something and still end up replicating the pitfalls they were trying to critique. The handmaiden is a great film, but it's disingenuous to act like it doesn't have its shortcomings in its depictions of sex between two women

[@sandraschafskaese8471]

Do I agree with the Handmaiden analysis? No. Do I think it’s valid? Absolutely. But first off I just wanted to tell people to not be ashamed of liking the movie just because different opinions/interpretations exist. It’s my absolute favorite film and definitely my favorite romantic movie as an asexual cis girl. Himikos aversion to sexuality really got to me and I honestly found the physical aspects of the romance to feel so incredibly hopeful for a future of love however she wants to live it. But I also understand how things you see as harmful to a community you are a part of being praised to high heavens sucks. I feel that way about The Secretary when it comes to the way the main characters self harm is portrayed in that film. Feeling misunderstood and invalidated by media really sucks. So long story short: thank you so much for sharing your point of view because I’ve already seen so many comments by sapphic people feeling validated by this video and I think that’s amazing.❤

[@cmegan06]

Huh, as a lesbian I've always liked the handmaidens tale but hated the ending, thank you for helping me collect my thoughts on why.

[@mhawang8204]

FYI: The Handmaiden's Tale and the The Handmaiden are two very different things 😂 But I know what you mean

The Handmaid's Tale??

[@angelsunemtoledocabllero5801]

The Handmaiden´s Tale? The TV show?

[@georgeuferov1497]

All controversies aside, this video makes me realize how many subconscious nuances every film and scene contains and how complicated everything actually is

[@beepot2764]

God I love the BBC fingersmith and I love that Sarah waters was involved with the whole production for fingersmith and tipping the velvet.

[@GrainneMhaol]

Thank you for articulating some of the problems I had with The Handmaiden (lurching tonal issues aside). I was ripped to shreds online for preferring Decision to Leave and admiring the restraint of the latter. It's hardly a coincidence that the choreography of the main sex scene in Handmaiden seem almost identical to that in Blue is the Warmest Colour.

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

This is why I like the BBC's Fingersmith better. They're. both based on the same book but there is romance in the love scenes in Fingersmith while handmaiden just seems exploitive and pornographic.

[@Beth-ky6db]

where can you watch the movie? (handmaiden)

[@arianabridges9412]

@@Beth-ky6db Amazon prime

[@greywolf7577]

You'd think that if men like a lesbian sex scene, then lesbians would like it too. Are people suggesting that lesbians just don't like sex as much?

[@GrainneMhaol]

@@greywolf7577 Perhaps you should watch the video instead of asking bad faith questions that you already know the answers to.

[@itsi6306]

This is such a good video and helped me understand so much of my struggles with popular media

[@tcrijwanachoudhury]

Cool video! ♡ As a former art student, it was weird how loads of girls in my class really loved Blue is the warmest colour bc they felt it was "subversive" but i didnt really see how it was different from any other film.

[@Matthy63]

I will say that the fact it came out in France when it did, when queer identities were being so heavily questioned by conservatives and used as fodder for the culture wars - that was big, in the same way that, say, t.a.t.u being huge in Russia when they were was many people's first exposure to queer representation, even though that representation was fake and deeply problematic. People forget how little representation there was at all, compared to an age with 3627181818 queer Netflix shows, most of which are hot garbage. So it served a purpose for queer communities within mainstream French culture when it did, it was just very obviously made for straight people with all the problems that come with that.

[@tcrijwanachoudhury]

@@Matthy63 thats very cool, thank you. It comes to show how very little is black and white

[@highlyquestionable9802]

@@Matthy63 as fake as it was, at least we had t.a.t.u back then. now it's completely illegal to even talk about queer people in Russia.

[@NiaNamora]

I remember when it first came out... I was so excited when I first heard about it. I had heard so many good things. Finally a *good* lesbian movie... I couldn't even finish it. People that talked it up really did me a disservice and I can't believe they did. I remember it was wildly acclaimed for a bit, then suddenly the general consensus started to change (even from those who originally proclaimed it a a work of art). I am specifically speaking of the attitudes I see from the Sapphic community. I think there's a few reasons for this. As the other commenter said, it opened doors. I don't think it was the best lesbian movie at the time but it was marketed well and was easy to find (while others remained obscure and were difficult to find or just not available in certain countries). I think as more content came out and was more accessible, the movie started falling in praise.

[@gh0st_b0yfriend]

Your analysis is always so nuanced and spot on ❤️❤️❤️

[@hannahprince3512]

I can't even find lesbian corn that doesn't feel like it was made for men

[@lordnokia4222]

THIS ^

[@rayphantom2547]

FACTS 😭

[@halcyon.x]

that exists?? 🥲

[@angelsunemtoledocabllero5801]

Hannah. Just google "porn for women". Is that simple

[@Atinakiwis]

you are so right i hate that so much

[@NaeOnYT]

"Portrait of a Lady on Fire" is S T U N N I N G.

[@tayschannel2695]

4:25 I’m not asexual but I think life as ace looks like this:

[@hi-rh9cq]

I've always found the fetishization of us queer folk incredibly odd. I'm a bisexual trans man, therefore I've seen this from both aspects, being creeped out by both men fetishising lesbians, trans women and masculine women but also women fetishizing gay men, trans men and feminine men. It seems a lot of them don't even realize what they're doing wrong, they genuinely believe they're allies.

[@Seeker7172]

Men are horny. Welcome to the world.

[@gracelarsen3648]

I’d love to hear your thoughts on A League of their Own (the show not the movie). I think it’s the best lesbian rep I’ve seen

[@KaterinaDeAnnika]

I really will disagree with listing the handmaiden like it did something wrong, or is a disservice to the lesbian genre. As a lesbian myself, and a lover of the original book (fingersmith) and it's BBC Adaptation, I found it amazing. It took the subversive sexuality that was hidden away in Victorian England and made everything harsher, and more on display. That is reflective of the way in which the Japanese ravaged Korean society in an even harsher version of British colonialism. We needed to feel that uncomfortable gaze, esp when it involved women and a KOREAN under the gaze of Japanese occupiers and usurpers. It takes the story of repressed and manipulative lesbians from fingersmith and makes it a critique on all the forms of repression and violence, sexual and otherwise, in Japanese occupied Korea. As a lesbian I also want to see more aggressive forms of media that aren't just slashers. I want edgy, harsh, manipulative, struggling characters. Representation includes having those characters of every sexuality. I never felt that the handmaiden was anything but wonderfully done, and it is an all time favorite of me and my wife. Seeing it on this list really really bothers me

[@moonchild-kr9xk]

i believe that the male gaze is not merely the presupposition that the target demographic of a specific movie is a straight man only, but it also necessitates a certain cultural hegemony. As in, basically any randomly picked movie when deciding what to watch will most probably be written for a male spectator (except, of course romance, the "female" genre) Hence, i believe there is currently not really such a thing as female gaze, and there doesn't need to be one.

[@bossyboots5000]

That's an interesting point. And yes, the vast majority of movies not only assume a male audience, they also present a male protagonist. Usually with 1 token woman, who is of course impossibly beautiful and presented for men. Gena Davis has been funding studies on the glaring gender disparity in film and has presented some really depressing facts. Your point makes me wonder 1) is objectification inherent in any gaze, male or female - and can a female gaze objectify and still be feminist (or would such a thing be internalised sexism). And 2) if the defining characteristic of the male gaze is objectification, whereas the female gaze by definition would view female characters as whole and with agency. If that makes sense

[@alexmottierart]

@@bossyboots5000 Wooooof you made me question 1 artistic project or 2 that I'm planning to do!!! As a nonbinary AFAB queer who's an artist, I want to do a series of paintings called 'queer gaze' with lots of women's butts (because I like women's butts a LOT), and each butt would have unrealistic eyes painted around, so that the disembodied butt looks back at the spectator. And now I'm wondering: will it really be empowering, or am I objectifying women too?!?!? 😢😢

[@attentivechair3248]

@@alexmottierart I mean it'd still be objectifying but the thousand eyes would make the spectator feel very uneasy right and unable to enjoy the butt as usual, so I kinda like that idea. But how is that queer-gazy? I'm lost.

[@selkrasouza6262]

I’ve heard of the female gaze being a thing within the context of yaoi/BL.

[@bossyboots5000]

@@alexmottierart perhaps evaluating the purpose of the project and unpacking the underlying reason why you want to present female butts in the first place as a vehicle to show the female gaze may help you answer that question. I also think the painting itself plays a huge role in that - the angles, the lighting, the perspective all craft the image and final result - and the way you utilize the area can mean the difference between objectification and appreciation, or objectification and flipping the gaze. I hope that helps some. I think the fact that you're asking yourself this will help yield the result you want. Edit: typo

[@boba_anon]

I remember that Blue Is The Warmest Color movie adaptation was so amazing to me as an early teen; I still identified as a cis female lesbian, trying to figure out my own sexuality, so that film made me feel heard. However, looking at this video made me realize that these films aren't perfect, which is ok. I'll probably read the movies more. But, even if I don't like them as much, I think it's still an experience to interpret and understand better within my now adulthood. I really appreciate your perspective :3

[@greywolf7577]

There seems to be this idea that only men like sex scenes and therefore sex scenes are bad. But women can like sex scenes too. And even if only men liked sex scenes, that doesn't make sex scenes bad. There seems to be people who view anything that men like as problematic, which is a sad view.

[@AleAKiM312]

@@greywolf7577 this critique is not about whether men like the sex scenes or not, and it's also not about sex scenes being inherently wrong or bad, and it's also not about sex scenes needing to not be explicit in order to meet some specific quality of 'goodness'.... it's about the way the female characters are framed and presented to the audience. That's it lol.

[@iwant2ducks39]

THANK YOU so much for making this video, lots of love

[@hozie6795]

Weirdly enough, I actually finally sat down to watch (via 100% legal definitely not-illegal means) The Handmaiden after the start of this video where you were seemingly praising it so unreservedly. I had heard it mentioned as a good film a few times and I knew the basic plot structure but this finally got me off my ass to watch it, and I didn't finish the video first because I didn't want any spoilers beyond already knowing that there's some twists and turns and that the two women are in lesbians and end up together. And then, after I finished it, I was like "OK, time to come back and finish the video," and experienced the plot twist of the century where it turns out that actually, you didn't think it was a great example of averting the male gaze. Overall I still thought it was a decent watch and I enjoyed the film well enough, but I remember specifically feeling pretty odd about the ending where they're reproducing the lesbian pornography Hideko read from. I don't think it's fully out of left field-the scene where Hideko is reading from that particular work and there's the blackout and she closes her eyes and clearly begins to imagine herself in the scene (presumably with Sook-hee) is framed as like, the first time she's ever derived any pleasure or joy from her uncle's books, so there's some kind of continuity there that I don't think is necessarily problematic or destructive to the film's themes and messaging-but it did strike me as a pretty odd way to close out the film. Like, what exactly are we supposed to take away from it other than "and then Hideko and Sook-hee fucked in a kinda kinky way, and will probably continue to fuck until either the Shanghai Incident in '32 or the outbreak of the Second Sino-Japanese War in '37 ruins their idyllic Shanghai existence." The unironic scissoring scene also kinda threw me, as did the complete lack of awkwardness for two virgins going at it for the first time ever. That being said, it did have its moments of genuine eroticism, I think? The scene where Sook-hee is filing down Hideko's sharp tooth with the thimble in particular, and also whenever they stuck to just kissing it was pretty good. I think it just started deteriorating into pornographic cliché when the sex scenes were allowed to go on too long and become too detailed. That isn't to say that I don't think it should've had explicit sex scenes, but a little bit of subtlety and inventiveness in content and presentation would've gone a long way. Overall, I guess I'm happy to report that I don't have a male gaze? Honestly, as a transfem, it always kinda puts me on edge when people start talking about this stuff because it makes me feel like everything I watch is going to be a litmus test for whether or not I am exhibiting some kind of male socialization, even though I literally have known cis queer women who have told me that Megan Fox in Transformers was their sexual awakening and that's like, *the* iconic example of the male gaze in modern popular cinema. I guess while I was watching the film I felt awkward that the sex scenes weren't really doing anything for me despite it supposedly being such a wonderful male-gaze-averting movie, so coming back to this video after I finished was kind of a weird relief.

[@butterflypooo]

I had the same issue with Ammonite (2019). It’s meant to be “progressive” bc the two females are less ashamed of their relationship … but all of their love scenes are alone, their whole world is alone, and in the dark, and dirt. And the sex scenes lack intimacy and feel so rough. The sex scenes read like two people who haven’t seen another human in years and is relieved to just have sex with anyone … it doesn’t add to their relationship and feels separate from it. It was cool to learn about the history of paleontology though and that’s about it.

[@butterflypooo]

@Luci Evelyn I had to look up why it is wrong to say “females” and I am starting to piece it together. I am a trans man and only came out a bit over a year ago. I have always used both terms interchangeably to refer to myself and all sorts of women. I experienced a lot of misogyny when I was living as a women (I’m a rape survivor and was sexually harassed a lot throughout my life and into adulthood), but I didn’t notice ever being called a “female” in a derogatory way. I’m not saying this doesn’t happen, just that it wasn’t on my radar. Idk how I missed it though. I abhor the term “biological women/man” and “female” seems to allude to that. Trans people are biological too. We aren’t smoke and like air. But thanks for bringing this to my attention. I definitely don’t think that women are defined by their organs or reproductive ability, that’s just odd to me. I do notice that “female and male” are more formal and hence feel a bit awkward, but I was not aware of the scientific distinction, or I was on some level but didn’t think about it much … Have u seen Ammonite? What did you think of it?

[@RB-jl2qb]

Calling women females is at least accurate compared to men who actually believe they can be women or even more ridiculously, female. Female is not a feeling or an act. It’s a biological fact.

[@butterflypooo]

@@RB-jl2qb thank you for commenting and sharing your transphobia today. :) No less, on the page of a content creator who is also transgender herself. ^^ You win a prize for being the 100th person (on the entire planet) to say something incorrect and rude and in the last 10 hours. 👏🏻🥳😝

[@RB-jl2qb]

@@butterflypooo being transgender doesn’t mean you have lost your brain cells and believe you are literally the opposite sex. Most transsexuals understand they are not women or at least definitely understand they are not female. If they were female they would not be trans. It’s not transphobia to understand reality. What are you a 5 yr old ?

[@horizonkyun7203]

@@butterflypooo i think saying “female singer” or “female actress” is chill but when it’s used as a proper noun it’s often in a misogynistic context. “females” just feels like it’s referring to animals or something yknow

[@AISolipsil]

This just popped up in my recommended and I love it. Thanks for this thoughtful analysis.

[@batmanfan2005]

This seems like a good opportunity to ask for a video about MLM stories and how they are for the most part by straight women for straight women and there is very little space for stories for and by gay men which is very sad.

[@violetjade64]

so true

[@valentine.58]

yes please i need that video ;-;

[@delarlie9186]

ooh yes that would be such a good companion to this video

[@skinsey85]

Right! All those fantasy gay Wattpad stories of 1 Direction. I didn't realize that was a thing among cis straight women until recently.

[@batmanfan2005]

@@skinsey85 And my biggest problem is that when i or some guy rights an accurate to real life gay story they have the nerve to tell us that's not right like stop shoving your heteronormativity in my sexuality.

[@Aristogeiton367]

Thank you so much for this video. I'm literally crying and laughing at the same time.

[@rania6674]

as a lesbian i gotta say handmaiden is still my favorite movie (havent watched the og or portrait of a lady on fire yet) even with the crude ending it was overall such a well made movie with a great story

[@Emily_North]

Comment For Engaygement🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈

[@dayuajeng]

I’m Indonesian, not a native English speaker, trying to share my thoughts here. I can’t mention my sexuality here. I do have critiques here and there for the films mentioned, and agree with some analysis, but to merely conclude that some scenes in Handmaiden are a pure male gaze is also a bias from white audiences. If we wanted to talk about male gaze, we need to address WHITE male gaze, and whiteness is important here. Please read other comments about Handmaiden, especially abt how to bring a queer narrative in Asian culture, South Korea to be exact (according to context we talk abt). While we see one thing, we should not turns blindside on other things. For instance, I personally think that we can not just compare apple to apple between the gloves scene of Handmaiden and Fingersmith. Intimacy between same genders are common in SK/ Asian cultures. For me, the Handmaiden scene is their playful side. That’s ‘the only’ time where Hideko can be relaxed and they both can have their space. The gloves are indeed just a property. Pls correct me but the gloves came to Asia from colonization?? So ofc it brings different sign. It’s probably main items in Fingersmith context. So we can not generalize what is intimacy, as it’s a spectrum depends on the contexts. And to be fair, this video can not just pick film and unroot it from its origin. It does give comprehensive understanding. It’s not hand in hand to bring Handmaiden, be compared with other white queer experience. Pls don’t repeat what whiteness often do to POC bodies, defining what is oppression/intimacy/how things should look like.

[@Kattlarv]

Having looked into this for years, it is something I see in all media. Especially "not for youtube kids" parts of the internet. Like... it's almost scary how anything that contains any variant of female, straight or lesbian: MUST be about or for men. It adds up fast if looking at the 3 archetypes women are allowed to be. 1: Wants to pleasure men. Out of "obligation", or to get wealth/fame from it. 2: Wants pregnant. 3: Ice queen. (almost always evil. As: What MONSTER wouldn't want to do 1 or 2?) Which, leaves lesbian characters especially in a precarious situation to begin with. Anything that doesn't focus on pleasuring men, becomes offensive.

[@Joyride37]

I enjoyed the critiques of Handmaiden because the sex scenes always rubbed me the wrong way. I adored the movie, but they were so graphic it took me right out of the film (especially the scissoring part. Really?? scissoring???) and felt less about the character's emotional journey and more about titillation. I got to live in Korea this past year and I don't think that whatever artsy uno reverso Park was trying to do with the sex scenes worked all that well, because I had a few male Korean acquaintances via work and school say they loved the movie solely bc of the sex scenes. Note that Korea is relatively more conservative than the US when it comes to homosexuality (the vibe felt like 1980s US) and some of these friends were pretty casually homophobic (I only told a few of my group I was a lesbian outright, and they were all closeted in some way or were expats from other countries). Like calling trans women "things" and saying they avoid Itaewon because they didn't want to be hit on by the gay guys there. The only positive comment, in the few times gay people existing came up, was the Handmaiden/sex scenes one. Disappointed, but not surprised.

[@lightofthelives]

There was 'scissoring' in one of the sex scenes because that is the only pleasurable thing she knew how to provide with. She was taught not really anything else so of course she's going to take away from the books she's been forced to read ever since a kid. Obviously you can be uncomfortable with it but it's there for that reason. Its telling and showing the viewer that hideko knows only what she's grown up with even if it seems .. uncomfortable

[@kosinneji9602]

I agree with you comment completely. Just to add to that, there's nothing wrong with tribbing. It's a very real thing and It feels good too. Though there are different ways to trib and they only used one way...the male gazey way (like in porn)....which is normally uncomfortable for most of the lesbians I know including myself.

[@elise1151]

I don’t know why people act like scissoring/tribbing is so insane for wlw people. It’s very intimate and pleasurable. What’s wrong with that. I haven’t seen the handmaiden but this comment annoyed me. Just because you don’t like a sexual act doesn’t mean other people won’t like it either

[@FreenBeckyFB]

@@elise1151 👍👍👍

[@greywolf7577]

If you don't like the sex scenes, that's okay, but there seems to be this idea that if men like certain things like sex scenes, then those things are bad. Which is a toxic view since men's interests shouldn't be seen as less valid than women's.

[@deprimada3560]

I really like Park Chan Wook, but I also really enjoy watching you roast him thoroughly

[@stellabrown9128]

Honestly I feel like this connects to why some of the best queer rep is actually in cartoons--owl house, STEVEN UNIVERSE OFC, etc... in a show directed towards children, the sexual aspect is removed and thus the need for male gratification diminished. Ruby and Sapphire feel so natural because they're just two people in love, loving each other without the third wheel of a male spectator demanding that they perform for his pleasure, Amity and Luz, likewise, are so sweet and true because they're just treated as two young people learning to love one another and deal with those emotions. thank you for coming to my ted talk XD

[@ferretbutnot2881]

I am so sad about how 'blue is the warmest color' turned out, the graphic novel was so good

[@TheLadyDelirium]

I didn't realise it was based on a graphic novel. I'm looking forward to checking it out.

[@josefinebliss2801]

@@TheLadyDelirium It is and the creator of the novel did not like the movie and was not even allowed to be part of the making of the movie that was based on her work.

[@TheLadyDelirium]

@@josefinebliss2801 That's such a shame. I guess she didn't own the rights to it for whatever reason. It must have been heartbreaking to see her work adapted into something she was unhappy with.

[@rootfish2671]

It's never butch lesbians being portrayed

[@kerryjung479]

GUILLTYYYY i am indeed a raging lesbian on the hunt for raunchy lesbian shots

[@matttriano]

Do you feel attacked by this video essay?

[@gustavotcb3904]

I think the fear of being castrated goes a bit beyond just the fear of femininity but I see what you mean

[@bendemare5270]

what are your takes? develop

[@considermycat]

Absolutely loving this, having seen the Patreon version. It reminds me of one of those CIA documents that gets released with redactions that leave it as an array of black lines with the single word “the” halfway down 🤣

[@MiguelHernandez-oj3mf]

This was just great and it really motivated me with my bachelor thesis! I'm currently writing about the female and male gaze in love movies. Thanks a lot for your input! Keep up the great work!

[@espeoradar]

I watched the handmaiden w my now fiancée since all the sapphics on tumblr were going nuts for it, and you've perfectly encapsulated why that last scene made us feel so weird lmao

[@arkhamknight5801]

The final scene is about them reclaiming their sexuality on their terms that's why it's there

[@felipest6926]

​@@arkhamknight5801 you'd think that would be clear enough....

[@bingusdingus2880]

YOO i find this topic super fascinating - thanks for covering it! EDIT: the cameo of sickos guy is much appreciated

[@idlerwheel]

I don't know why everyone is so mad about the male gays? I for one love them :::whispers in ear:: OOOOHHHHHH

[@Lanagrant-s8p]

I actually enjoy both movies. I think they both have great acting and photography. But i Always find weird that no one talked about the intimate scenes in The handmaiden the same way they talked about Blue. I"m glad you pointed that out

[@blorpobingus]

I know a lot of sapphics who love the handmaiden, and while I think its important to analyze and call out the problems with the movie, i also think that sapphics should be able to enjoy media that isn't that great if they so choose to!

[@mhawang8204]

I mean, we watch The L Word. Lesbians know how to enjoy “bad” media. The internet discourse(TM) changed that and now everything has some moral value that needs to be uphold. At least we can be self-aware while consuming media.

[@blorpobingus]

@@mhawang8204 yup! being an informed and critical consumer is good.

[@70memories]

As a bisexual woman, I simply just beg not being seen as the embodiment of a fetish😢😢