Roger Penrose Says "Gravity Collapses the Wave Function!"

[@TheoriesofEverything]

Get 10 FREE meals at HelloFresh.com/freetheoriesofeverything Click here for the BEHIND-THE-SCENES "highs and lows of meeting Roger Penrose": curtjaimungal.substack.com/p/the-highs-and-lows-of-meeting-roger Sir Roger Penrose main episode (September 2024): kzbin.info/www/bejne/qXjQZmNriauAmLc

[@_John_P]

Penrose is right, there are no hidden variables. The issue is being unable to measure something without interfering with it, and the measurement itself changes the system in a somewhat random way, so one has to repeat the experiment a large amount of times to try to pinpoint statistically what the correct answer was likely to be. Einstein is also right, if you could probe the answer without interfering, the result would be 100% classical, no such thing as superposition. And as a consequence, FTL backpropagation is a problem in the theory, not in nature. The EPR problem is then automatically solved because superposition is only required in the mathematical model, and the entangled system is no longer entangled, i.e. the colour of the pair of socks is whatever it was when the socks were separated, and manipulating one sock does not change the other.

[@BeKind-ve4id]

Re: shilling hello fresh, I ask you to take one chicken cacciatore dish and put it in front of Bob and put the same dish in front of Alice. If the chicken is facing Bob, does it mean the pasta must have a half spin and must be facing Alice? Enquiring minds want to know.

[@Alice_Sweicrowe]

​@BeKind-ve4id No, but it does mean the science communicators can continue to communicate. If you haven't learned about the travesty that is modern scientific funding then you're in for a treat. That is a 4377 of a rabbit hole to jump into and will give you a better appreciation of the bs scientists have to go through just to science. In other words, your parameters aren't defined and are thus invalid. Khan academy is one free tool that could help that. There are a few more as well, but khan is the most accessible as far as I'm aware.

[@Alice_Sweicrowe]

​@@BeKind-ve4idAlso, if you ever really want to know what their angle is, just follow the money. I'm not going to tell you how to do so, just that you can learn. When you do you can find out who's paying them. When you find that out you can find out the payers agenda. After that use the results as necessary. Just, if you get into these kinds of things learn how to do it right before you do it. Exhaustive research and as many trainers as is safe and practical to deal with. But, you're a science buff so you might never need this stuff, so long as you don't invent anything too beneficial in too corrupt a place.

[@aroemaliuged4776]

Shameful advertising on the back of Roger Penrose

[@RealTechnoPanda]

He is 93 and still so sharp. That's quantum reality!

[@michaelmello42]

I could listen to Roger Penrose all day. What an absolute treasure to have this man on your podcast and others that he has frequented on KZbin. We are blessed to have Roger with us and still going strong!

[@brendawilliams8062]

I’ve to listen if I just simply see his name. A genius of the era

[@jonschlinkert]

I was about to say the same thing!

[@aardvarkmindshank]

Not so sure. He talks in riddles half the time.

[@a.s.2426]

@@aardvarkmindshank Yup. Terrible communicator in this conversation.

[@Naturamorpho]

I'm such a fan of Roger' Penrose's! Always inspiring conversations!

[@cliveaw1206]

Curt, you're an excellent interviewer and interlocutor

[@donny5530]

Theres really very few scientists as flexible and adaptive in their thinking than Penrose. He has never stopped being humble and driven, and eager to educate. Could be 60 years old in this interview, the way he thinks and talks still, you'd barely tell the difference.

[@a.s.2426]

Agree he is humble and seemingly still open minded despite him saying he is not. I think, however, while the words he was saying were clear in the sense they were recognizable immediately he was quite unclear in his intelligibility here. He speaks without providing context.

[@mightyoss]

I’m high

[@serphystus]

Best stoner channel ever

[@paulmichaelfreedman8334]

These channels require a good dose of THC. It increases your brain's ability to absorb important information

[@Axiomatic75]

​@@paulmichaelfreedman8334It's even better on mushrooms, trust me.

[@blijebij]

Sir Roger Penrose perspective on this is very interesting! Cause it shows there is a missing element within a system that wants to combine GR and Quantum mechanics within one reality. I find this fascinating when I think about it. Gravity probabilistically influences which state will dominate, without fully eliminating the superposition. This means there is always a probabilistic distribution, and gravity is just one factor that determines which of the quantum states is more likely to be observed. When pondering about this, that would lead inside my mindset to a more nuanced acceptable path. Further it looks like we are not discovered yet the complete perspective of the quantum world yet.

[@brendawilliams8062]

I can follow the program and understand. Doing the equations would require a lot of practice. , and interacting with excellent Educators.

[@BackTwoBaySix]

Bro is using the best physicist of the century to shill hello fresh

[@ACTopo]

Nobody at hello fresh can even slightly comprehend the value of this as retrocausally.

[@ValidatingUsername]

Society wants people who watch this content to stay home and learn to cook I guess 😂

[@infamousted4960]

Yes.. it puts a nasty taste in my mouth. It was "goodbye fresh" for me.

[@ACTopo]

@@infamousted4960 C.J. gotta make a living to be fair.. but yea

[@ACTopo]

@@ValidatingUsername the mysteries of the moment continue to keep us in awe of its irrationally lovely happenings!

[@moe531]

What a phenomenon Penrose really is, the collapse has to do with gravity and the proper time in particular, everything must tick with the same rate in the same pubble!

[@rafaelguida2317]

Thanks for bringing us such intricate interviews!!! I'm very interested in Penrose's ideas and the quantum measurement problem. There is one aspect, however, which I still need help clarifying. Is it the sole presence of a big enough gravitational field which collapses the wave function, or is it the super position created by a large enough mass? In the first case, this could contradict phenomena like the fusion at the sun's core , which "require" quantum tunneling to happen at it's scale. However, if it were the strong field which was collapsing the wave function, wouldn't this prevent the fusion by loosing the quantum aspect ?

[@uazuazu]

Even Penrose says he doesn't know in this interview. He's pointed out the specific contradiction, and says it requires a new theory. But having a specific detailed contradiction narrows things down. But anyway, at the sun's core there is weightlessness (no gravity) but huge pressure, so the sun is not affected. Remember that within a spherical uniform object, the material above your radius cancels out, and you only feel the effect of the material below your radius.

[@eternaldoorman5228]

This is a really great interview. I'd love to have a chance to talk with Roger!

[@zdzislawmeglicki2262]

A quantum state is as real as an image on the old CRT TV screen. It is drawn by a hot spot (a particle). It has all the properties of mass and charge distribution given by the quantumly calculated probability density. But when you capture the hot spot (the particle, this is the neasurement) you classicalize it, and from now on it stays frozen in the position where you've caught it and the distribution disappears, because there is nothing drawing it any more. What is it that makes the particle jump within its quantum probability envelope? It's the quantum field the excitation of which is the particle. This quantum field, as has been shown by Prof. Nima Arkani-Hamed, is an object that is not bound by strictures of space-time, which is how you end up with quantum nonlocality of entanglement… Just saying.

[@PMA65537]

13:10 I wasn't allowed to change anything in the book .. about the retrocausal thing

[@wilfridabenaabena2041]

I find Nassim Haramein explanation of the collapse of the wave function more accurate: the atom was first described as a particle; then later as a wave; to finish as both. The collapse of the wave function would be the interference of the wave with whatever medium it is going through. Nothing to do with consciousness or the measurement. I would add that gravity is an effect not a cause thus not a force. It curvature of the spacetime is a good description of the effect of gravity. A curvature is not a force but a potential. I didn't study "Einstein Fields"' equations but if those predict gravitational waves it could be a misinterpretation of a something else. There are no Effects without Causes. That's the Principle of Causality. Gravity is felt where there's a cause for it. With all this science should focus on how to cancel the Effect of gravity.

[@advaitrahasya]

11:24 The dual "paradigm" is nuts. Existence plays by the same rules at all scales. The real paradigm (unconsciously accepted assumptions) remains unnoticed, and underlies both the "classical" and "quantum" notions. Penrose is excellent at seeing the necessities. Maybe put him in a room with Pavel Exner and others who have escaped at least some of the wrong underlying assumptions.

[@elektron2kim666]

It's a mine field..... I mean a mind-field. "What are you thinking about?" "Nothing." "You are not like that. You always drift into the unknown." "It's a secret." "I want a collapse now."

[@julianpilbrow4963]

What are dogs do provide so called paranoib schizophrenics their humanity.

[@julianpilbrow4963]

What are dogs do provide so called paranoid schizophrenics their humanity.

[@fibonaccisliberabacirevisi6454]

Collapse of the Wave Function (crossroads of quantum mechanics and GR) Minimum value of mass wherein the quantum superposition of states will collapse towards a final state and the emergence of gravity. Minimum Mass (Mo) = 1.825E-17 kg Gravity is an emergent property of the universe and does not exist in the quantum world. The properties of gravity can only be observed if the total mass reaches Mo.

[@julianpilbrow4963]

Pause for just one moment to consider that New Zealand's new users of Hanzi comprising a significant presence, may not themselves require syllables in order to understand how Auckland's sewerage system works.

[@jamesc2226]

Light is a particle when humans observe because to humans time is linear. Light is a wave when no human is present and linear time is not involved. The observer determines the outcome. Obviously a being that experiences linear time vs a being who experiences non linear time is the key. We are talking physical beings vs spiritual beings.

[@esorse]

If gravity collapses the wave function and gravity is a property of space-time * , then Minkowski-Hamilton's characterizations of relative medium-quantum energy don't leave anything left? * If "duration" in Einstein's apparent definition of time as 'the duration of the motion between items', means monotic sequence where no term is less than the previous one and the difference between successive terms of the same modulus is equal, then it's founded upon Newton's objective - reality exists indepently from us - temporal conception?

[@stringsseeds]

Gravity collapses the wave function is actually in string theory with a much more complete description. It's the AdS/CFT correspondence where AdS side has only gravity without quantum theory and the CFT side has only quantum theory without gravity. There's a much deeper reality as gravity is an effect where before it's string that looks like graviton as cause. When the string represents graviton as the cause is activated then the effect of gravity is felt. That's why we can never see gravitons because it's not a 3-dimensional effect. String theorists are unaware of strings as causes and what comes out in spacetime are effects. Strings are Seeds in Yogacara Buddhism which are also causes. It's when these causes are activated there are effects of "gravity" or spacetime (dynamical), and upon this spacetime as a platform where our cognitive activities take place hence quantum theory has fixed spacetime. This is exactly how gravity collapses the wave function. Different beings have different Seeds or causes hence different types of strings or graviton (👈 all are causes not in 3-dimensional spacetime) and hence spacetime is dynamical.

[@Jacobk-g7r]

5:31 super position doesn’t mean it is all its differences at once but more like in a state that can share to all those positions. Imagine yourself and then all your potentials, they don’t exists separately, you can share them into being by understanding and sharing into them. What i mean is that nothing is too far but it does get easier over the differences shared into being. It’s like relatives sharing and expanding the range of possibilities.

[@ywtcc]

Is the background vacuum, or is it disorder? I'm not so sure we can do better than separate signal from noise, in this kind of analysis at the cutting edge of experimentation. It seems to me that the idea of adding pure wave functions on top of a pure vacuum isn't quite what's there when measured! (You wouldn't believe it was a real measurement if there wasn't some noise.) Also, I think it's perhaps better to deconstruct the problem of spacetime as a set of solutions to an orientation problem. Surely a proposed spacetime will only be accepted experimentally if it provides answers to some kind of orientation problem, or the experimenter couldn't point a sensor at it.

[@JohnBerry-q1h]

Maybe it's the 3rd dimension that forces the wave function to collapse. When you have only a 1-dimensional line, the line can extend endlessly, in either of two opposing directions. When you have a 2-dimensional plane, the plane can extend endlessly, in any outward direction that lies _within the plane_ of the plane. Within such a 2-dimensional plane, endlessly extended 1-dimensional straight lines can exist. But we live in a 3-dimensional world, and all the foregoing lower-dimension "endless extension" properties *cease to exist* within each of the 2-dimensional surface planes (of which there are 6) that "come together" to define a 3-dimensional box. To form a 3-dimensional box, you use a quantity of [6] 2-dimensional planes. Each 2-dimensional plane is parallel to ONLY ONE of the remaining [5] 2-dimensional planes, so as to form a set of [3] parallel 2-dimensional planes. For each identified "parallel pair" of 2-dimensional planes, the identified pair exists PERPENDICULAR *to both* of the remaining "parallel pairs". Now, in terms of the 3-dimensional box that has just been defined, imagine that you are a straight line, that exists within the plane of one of the 2-dimensional surface planes (of the overall 3-dimensional box.) Under these conditions, as a straight line, if you attempt to extend endlessly (in either of two opposing directions), *you can't.* Why? Because you quickly "run into" an edge boundary, where two 2-dimensional planes meet, existing in an orthogonal orientation with respect to each other. As components of the wave function pass from the realms of 1- and 2-dimensions (where everything can exist in an endless manner), the wave function components eventually come to the 3rd dimension, and if they have to deal with existing within the 2-dimensional surfaces of a 3-dimensional box, the wave function components suddenly have to deal with no longer being permitted the property of being *endless.* Thus, the collapse occurs, similar to the outcome of a speeding car running into the rockface of a mountain.

[@adama8570]

This constitutes the very core of both relativity and QM. For one thing two entangled particles can never be in the exact same gravitational field! Furthermore if time itself is both quantized and non-sequential (cf Dr E.Nordström) we don´t need to see quantized gravity as a phenomenon in itself since we get it into the bargain.

[@JungleJargon]

General relativity explains the changing rates of causation throughout the universe on a large scale. It’s gravity that determines the measure of distance and the rate of time which together determine the speed of things happening including the speed of light.

[@jl-dq5ch]

Why do we say collapse of the wave function? Isn't it technically an excitation in the quantum field? Like looking at a bar chart where the baseline is the field and a spike on the chart would be like a spike of energy in this field creating what we think of as a particle?

[@charliekelland7564]

If I understand Penrose correctly you could test the proposition that Gravity collapses the wave function by establishing some state of quantum superposition on the surface of the Earth and the same state on a spaceship at a Lagrange point and the superposition would last longer in the latter case... is that right?

[@aimickelson9102]

Dumb question here-but is there a state of superposition we can consistently measure?

[@edwardlarson6110]

Given the utter weakness and negligibility of gravity in the microdomain, how is Penrose's idea not a form of spontaneous wavefunction collapse or narrowing? I think it's on the same (right) track of thinking as GRW.

[@sonarbangla8711]

What Penrose is claiming as quantum and classical reality and how it relates to speed of light and retro-causality, may have an element of truth, but begs for a formulation. On the other hand principle of equivalence and superposition, should have triggered a Wave of research resulting in a formulation, even if it is based on speed of light (which is a tested truth) and so some other explanation may emerge.

[@alex79suited]

Penrose is a favorite. Peace ✌️ 😎.

[@skhi7658]

Here is the theory of everything: What actually happens does not happen necessarily rather accidentally but always sufficiently to continue on the one hand the causal chain of local events and on the other hand guarantees despite it a scope for freedom. Thus to immediately depict the correlations ( changes in the relationships to each other) everywhere and at any moment .

[@YoutubeGuru-h1w]

Maya

[@robertjames4908]

So the Universe could be quantum retro-casual Boltzmann Brain. The 'Brain' collapses into existence at a point in time and then constructs a self-consistent classical universe retro-casually...

[@malcolmstartrail9573]

Yes that could be a possibility in an infinite universe, there is an infinite number of possibilities and I really do like the Boltzmann's brain theory

[@arcticantic1768]

if "collapsing wave function" means revealing properties then any interaction reveals properties. For instance, CMS at Android collider registers these revealed properties.Thus "collapsing" loses sense and remains only in homo sapience mind as interpretation. Because gravitation is everywhere, so interaction is immediate upon birth and whole life-cycle of the particle. At least Higgs field provides immediate interaction and provides mass, isn't it "a collapse"? Copenhagen interpretation still is an interpretation, though most popular among us hominids.

[@duongkstn]

no understand what he said, but love him so much :)

[@ltandrepants]

is a particle (matter/us/everything physical) a wave interference pattern?

[@classicalmechanic8914]

Quantum information does not propagate in past light cone. Quantum information can only travel in present which would appear to be in a past light cone in your reference but from the perspective of distant observer it is in their present.

[@Bobbel888]

In total, is there just one quantum object?

[@Darisiabgal7573]

I’m not sure why this is an issue. If we just consider the double slit experiment the QM reality of a photon or electron splits along two paths and the spreads out and interferes with each other. The fact that this can be done with split beams confirms the fact that in a coherent state a particle is everywhere. It’s not just probably on this side or that side of the slit, it’s on both sides. If it was true the particle subdivided then we could see -1/2 charge hitting the screen in two places or to photons with half the frequency, but that doesn’t happen. The coherent state cannot be “real” I think in the end it gets down to finescale of spacetime and the principle of least action. But yes, there is a quantum reality that sometimes agrees and sometime disagrees with classical reality. This is actually something that happens in the normal world and can be quite useful. If you take a mm x mm piece of graphene. There is at least one orbital that covers the entire sheet. In a classical model the electron travels from carbon atom to carbon atom. In a quantum model the electron is in coherence with the sheet, thus the electron is everywhere. And as it turns out, for very short lengths the sheet is super conducting. You put the charge and it’s immediately available at all points, because there is at least one (often 2) electron in one orbital that covers the entire sheet, thus you only need a limited number of coherence decoherence events to get the electron from one corner to the opposite corner. Where was the electron…..everywhere.

[@saltybits9954]

Nobody has ever seen a photon

[@glamdrag]

@@saltybits9954 im looking at a bunch of them right now

[@The_Ascension]

No offense. Whether left or right; up or down spin. This isn't enough to explain non locality even if the collapse occurs through gravity. Speculations should sway more to a constant field where spin is irrelevant.

[@aimickelson9102]

I appreciate the metaphorical reasoning, but I’m not sure it proves collapse is BECAUSE of 3D reality. First, 3D is a ambiguous term as it can be used to describe point geometry or spacetime. Here, you’ve defined “3D” as a non-continuous, finite plane and noted that collapse is also finite. So while there might be tautology to your reasoning, it is not necessarily causal since the your setup begs the original question.

[@rotatingmind]

Isn't Jonathan Oppenheim saying too, that gravity collapses the wave function?

[@MatrixVectorPSI]

13:50 He's way off.. "Quantum reality propagates along the past light cone". There is no such thing as "quantum reality" or a past light cone. Bob and Alice's particle spin orientations were determined at the time the object was "split" or entangled, not at the time the object was measured. Everything happens in the present, there is no retro causality. There's no instant communication either.

[@KaliFissure]

Gravity is the prime mover. Gravity, acting on mass free space evolved all matter.

[@rickgoranowski9428]

Does 'is' gravitationaljy collapse into the equal sign?

[@Killer_Kovacs]

Timespace seems to tend towards Miosis when energies are introduced to the gravitational fields. Outside of tunneling, everything local including quanta is subject to the causality of relativity. I wonder if there isn't a vacuum within quantum particles

[@josephrendon6969]

“Gravity is as gravity does.” Forrest Gump

[@JKDVIPER]

No, it’s just that, matter displaces the empty black vacuum like a fluid. Albeit thin, it represents room. Volume and temperature density and buoyancy. We are moving and spinning that means each mass is charged with that kind of velocity and motion. So at a base; each mass on the planet is being flung through space while turning. As the object moves, it collapses SPACE actually, around itself, a constant changing shape where what was filled is now empty. Like a liquid shadow space changes shape. In doing so it creates a vortex as well, it also keeps matter collapsing on top of us at a constant rate. All these work in tandem to make an EFFECT. Not a force, not a particle. An overall effect. Gravity. Our atmosphere displaces the cosmological constant, in doing so those two SUBSTANCES meet. We know that the atmosphere doesn’t rip apart our gas air oxygen and argon nitrogen and carbon dioxide, because those gasses quite naturally hug the planet from thermodynamics. Gas is attracted to our planet so is an accretion disk to a black hole. My idea is that mass is blowing out the edge when it compresses beyond the weak and strong force. Displacement might be causing the expansion at various rates depending on density. I think he’s on to something deeper. He’s talking about way down micro style. It may be. Mathematics and astronomy in tandem is no joke.”

[@aimickelson9102]

How are you defining space? The empty black vacuum?

[@JKDVIPER]

@@aimickelson9102 yes. Specifically. Because of the fact that matter settles as we can see by density, example being our core VS the atmosphere, we can tell that the heavier denser and therefor high temperature regions tend to be at center, thus when concerning black holes the amount of weight we’ve guessed, probably snuffs out any motion and we know molecules don’t survive without plenty of empty space for entropy. But, inside a black hole core, matter is crushed to a point where the forces of nature are dominated. The 8-10 solar mass black holes ring out so much empty space that they ADD to the overall volume in the process was my idea. ☺️👍💯

[@aroemaliuged4776]

Theories of sponsoring hello fresh

[@cdenn016]

As scientists we should always be careful to say "might" instead of "does" apropos theories. It's a big peeve of mine. Gravity "MIGHT" collapse wavefunctions. Might. Weve no idea if it "DOES"

[@uazuazu]

He's saying that gravity breaks the QM equations in a way that apparently only waveform collapse can resolve. It's definitely an interesting perspective, and definitely suggests that gravity might play a part. Definitely a MIGHT until we have testable theories, though.

[@MatrixVectorPSI]

Yes and no. The observer phenomena and retro causality have been properly debunked. And he's mistaken in his interpretation of Superposition. Superposition just means that the object has been excited enough by an EM wave to exist in multiple "or" states. The object does not exist in multiple locations as if it's an "and" wave. It just exists in one place and the observer isn't sure where or what it is until they make a measurement of the system. The observer will only ever find the gravity of the object in one location. Little paper on classical QM www.youtube.com/@LisaHubbled/community

[@drgetwrekt869]

i have the impression that gravity has a role in this, but the situation could be slightly different

[@YouriCarma]

Sir Roger Penrose: "The whole of special relativity goes down the tubes. The whole of modern physics does. So that's not a good idea." On the contrary I think that's an excellent idea!

[@alex79suited]

The issue with gravity that I have is this. When we say the mass of the object deforms the space. So, the issue is that if mass deformed the space, all objects would do this equally 🤔. Regardless of mass, all objects in the infinite ♾️ space are equivalent to the space. So all objects would have the exact same effect, and the truth is they do. The effect is 0Msquared. EM = 0Msquared. Or VEM = 0Msquared. Closed environments in an open environment. But if the great attractors were a prior events then the space around the galacty's may have its own EMFSYSTEM? That's why it's tough sledding. I think the environment around the galacty's may be closed as well. It's how far up is the environment closed. That's the issue for me. The entire CMB may be a closed environment system inside of infinite ♾️ space. If that's the case, how old is it? And how many are there? Peace ✌️ 😎. It's not as easy as some of I will say my colleagues think it is. It's very deep thinking, and it's tough. But we will get there.

[@bunnyban5365]

The best physicist still can’t explain how ufos work He needs to learn from grey aliens how physics really work

[@Alice_Sweicrowe]

This better have a very clear path to testing, including on how we can figure out what gravity actually is. Until then, anything like this is still just guessing.

[@aimickelson9102]

I would say it’s modern day philosophy which has a methodology. Much more than guessing. Look how far gauge theories have gotten us

[@Alice_Sweicrowe]

@@aimickelson9102 Ambiguous statements are ambiguouslly ambiguous.

[@wohargRadu]

One should not take the wave function "collapse" too seriously. The wave function is not real and lives in a complex Hilbert space so that it cannot really "collapse". What looks like a "collapse" is that an Eigenstate is measured while before the measure the wave function is just a framework which allows to compute the probability of measuring Eigenstates and it works perfectly. In that sense it might be misleading to suppose that there exists a quantum "reality" obeying to the same causal local rules as the classical "reality" does. GR is a theory about the classical reality while QM is a theory of measure on quantum systems. The Schrödinger's cat is not dead AND alive, but the result of a measure will be 100% dead OR 100% alive.

[@aimickelson9102]

@@wohargRadu To me, this is equivalent to saying we shouldn't take time seriously because time is both past AND present. That may be the case, however, the forward experience of time (i.e. the measurement) shows us an entropic asymmetry. If gravity has an asymmetrical tendency towards locality, then theories underlying the collapse may be as serious as the laws of entropy. And we are working through a unified theory right?

[@wohargRadu]

@@aimickelson9102 Well the time appears only in the phase of the wave function (complex exponential) so that it doesn't play any role in the probabilities which are the only real information we can get about the system. So there is not really a measurable process of "collapse evolving in time". Once the measure is done, we measure without surprise an Eigenstate and we were 100% sure that this is what we would measure anyway. So yes, in a way it means that you don't need to take the time seriously because you cannot measure the phase of the wave function which is a complex number. Perhaps QM will be replaced by a non local realistic theory one day but I think that the odds are against it.

[@fireside9503]

Are we intentional or not? Whatcha think, Penrose?

[@dattamiruke8337]

A long time I have been waiting for someone to claim that "quantum physics is dead wrong". I always thought this was the case, when studying it and trying to make sense of the particles and their hierarchies. Every time something could not be explained, out comes a new particle. Strange quarks et. al. I was convinced this is just arbitrary explanation. Hopefully someone fixes this soon, and let the Schrodinger's cat keep purring peacefully. 😆

[@Bobbel888]

How would the EPR effect translate to photons?

[@aroemaliuged4776]

Theories of hello fresh

[@RossanaHoerr]

Great analysis, thank you! A bit off-topic, but I wanted to ask: My OKX wallet holds some USDT, and I have the seed phrase. (alarm fetch churn bridge exercise tape speak race clerk couch crater letter). How should I go about transferring them to Binance?

[@ThePaulTM]

Hi Kurt. I have watched a few of your videos on the theory of everything. If your theories are for everything how come you do not show the 3D Geometry for the 118 elements. It seams you only show mostly 2 dimensional equations. Are you one of the Academics that think that 3D Geometric Order that is produced by QUAD STEP and CubicWonder should be suppressed from the face of the Earth ?

[@InnerLuminosity]

We clearly exist within a self simulation ❤

[@tobyclayton2597]

Solipsism is somewhat narcissistic 😂

[@Vito_Tuxedo]

@InnerLuminosity - It may be clear to you, but it is not clear to me. If it were up to me to simulate everything that I experience as my version of "reality", I promise you that there are several aspects of reality I would exclude. In any case, I''m just curious whether you realize that your assertion can neither be proven nor disproven, which makes it of questionable utility...you know-sort of like the pointless argument about whether free will exists.

[@jake-t2y3g]

@@Vito_Tuxedo I don't think they mean that we are personally doing the simulation. it's likely they are referring to reality doing the self simulation.

[@cliveaw1206]

Very masturbatory yes.

[@Mikeduffey_]

🤘

[@TheWayOfRespectAndKindness]

Time is gravity. Time collapses the wave and any unnatural superposition. In GR space and time are conceptualized as "one". I disagree with this concept. Time gradient creates the illusion of Space curvature, Space itself does not curve.

[@TomBarber-s6b]

Cool

[@mihailpramatarov]

i have similar thoughts, that time collapses the wave function, but i think it was Lee Smolin, who introduced this idea. maybe time is the electrical field and space is the magnetic one.

[@20tiiimes]

Didn't have a scooby what he was going on about

[@nosuchthing8]

What?? What about something in space?

[@donbarile8916]

... waiting for physicists to discover absurdity.

[@808bigisland]

I am on board with Prof Penrose. The wave function collapses not by gravity. It’s time.

[@johnlord8337]

Gravity Collapses the Wave Function. This is truly a no-brainer. A gravity well around a large gravitational object distorts and supercompacts the very 3 matter space-time fabrics and the 3 Aether space-time fabrics. This literally overcomes the steady-state cosmic tension of the space-time fabrics, with their equi-balanced gravitons and tensor bosons (Aether tensor bosinos). Such action overwhelms and subsumes their gravity, energy, forces, fields, leading to an eventual collapse of their gravity waves. Then yes you can collapse the very space-time. BUT !, ... even with our own Milky Way galactic core of a massive black hole, this hasn't created such a disastrous condition. The same applies for all the (~ 700+ trillion) young stars and mature stars that still exist within their multiple space-time fabrics and steady state cosmic tension. Tensor bosons hold the graviton fabrics together (gravity force), but also holds them apart (electric force). Cosmic tension is in a steady-state, or micro-cosmic "breathing" where the fabrics have their own energy pattern flows. Such energy flows are quantum entanglements in the matter universe particles (1-5% cosmic mass), while sub-quantum entanglement happens in the Aether domain particulates (95-99% cosmic mass). So the comment is more theoretical or philosophical physics, ... because the overwhelming data of anything real across the whole infinite unknown volume of the cosmos (Aether) ... across all solar systems, galaxies, constellations, ... shows that this isn't (hasn't ?) happening now (or happened in the most-ancient of the past ?).

[@zhavlan1258]

Портного игла человечеству давно известна. Но стоило Зингеру, ушко иглы перенести … . То же самое нужно проделать и с опытом Майкельсона Морли 1881/2024 г. Этот опыт нужно перенести на самолёт или автомобиль и будет Вам сюрприз и прогресс в Большой науки. А так по старинке, будем всё штопать тёмные да черные дырочки.

[@adaptivealph8052]

Sounds like the little rocks are Bitcoin

[@aroemaliuged4776]

How many times are we going to see this?

[@platonicgeometryportal5567]

I agree Mr Penrose. Quantum Reality and Classical Reality!

[@aarrvindmbd1974]

He's not for the general audience

[@a.s.2426]

Right. I think I'm in that particular audience.

[@LuisAldamiz]

Quanta are the Yang, Space-Time the Yin, the ultimate "observer" that appeases all that tingling uncertainty into the certainty Einstein always clang to: "the Moon is still there where I'm not watching it".

[@paulkohl9267]

No offense Curt, but your video titles for Roger Penrose do not make sense. He is not the greatest scientist alive (who ever really is?), and he is most certainly _NOT_ the father of QG (that distinction goes to Wheeler).

[@williamstraub3844]

I have all of Sir Roger's books, and have read many of his scientific papers. His "Road to Reality" is one of the best books I've ever read. But quantum microtubules, wave function collapse by gravity and the like make me think age is finally catching up with his brilliant mind.

[@СергейИванов-ы1п8э]

Microtubulous is good idea, there is quantum effects in neuorons whish take fundamental role in how brain processing information, the graviti collapsing wave function is solid bs

[@nathenwesner9856]

Why is it so hard for everybody to grasp that the whole world is idea. The wave function collapses when you entangle yourself with the universe aka , being alive.

[@helicalactual]

I don’t buy this as, you don’t collapse a wave function. You glean it. It passes over your body effecting the bioelectric field, or sensor, generating entanglement, sending an efferent/affront signal to the detection object. Which generates an internal system state registering the passing wave function, which means it’s simulated on every observational level, however it’s only repeatable, it can not communicate the subjective experience exactly, only what is “repeatable”, then the internal geometry changes due to entanglement, resulting in “experience” etc. there is no actual collapse.

[@emgimeer8212]

The fact that there are ANY commenters thinking they know better than this man is crazy. ToE has the absolute WORST fans.

[@TheBinaryUniverse]

But you never know. Throughout history, progress has always been made by someone either destroying existing theories and ideas, or at least changing them in the light of new evidence or better ideas. Your contempt for all commenters is potentially misguided.

[@Vito_Tuxedo]

@@TheBinaryUniverse - Jeez...that's funny. I was just reflecting that some commenters' apparent contempt (or at best, disrespect) for the way Sir Roger is potentially _destroying existing theories and ideas, or at least changing them in the light of new evidence or better ideas,_ is potentially misguided. Anyhow, I took @emgineer8212's remarks to not apply universally, to *_all_* commenters on this channel, but perhaps I'm mistaken. 😎

[@AlexanderShamov]

I think the format of the discussions on this channel encourages this to some extent. There's a limit to what can be exlpained in non-technical terms. People who have never encountered ideas of this level of depth and complexity, i.e. the majority, may get the false impression that they understand something because to them this sounds just as vague and hand-wavy as their own ideas. So they feel encouraged to try to do the same, with none of the knowledge or hard work that's actually required to do anything in sciece.

[@Vito_Tuxedo]

@@AlexanderShamov - You might be right, but if so, that suggests that "the majority" of negative commenters are eminently unqualified to pass judgment on the worth of what Sir Roger has to say. But I guess that actually makes sense. The physicists I know are brilliant people with achievements of their own, and they all share a profound respect not only for Sir Roger's past achievements, but also for the new ideas he is currently exploring.

[@aroemaliuged4776]

Roger was helpful at the least to have a conversation with you And now fkn hello fresh is a money maker on his back Fkn shameful

[@a.s.2426]

Shameful to make a living? Come on. You don't have an income?

[@user-dc9ew8qv4j]

So wait a second, information can travel back in time? What does this suppose to mean? Nothing should be possible to go back in time, Although here we are talking about Quantum reality, but still, the impact in the past will be classical. So you are solving a paradox with a paradox.

[@RiotSociety666]

Wrong 😂

[@lorcanoconnor6274]

Terrible attitude Curt. You’re visibly impatient and seem to take smug pleasure in finding words for Penrose or interrupting while he has lapses in focus. He’s 93 and smarter than you have ever been. You set up the interview and are profiting off of it.

[@TheoriesofEverything]

Hi there... The Penrose part was explained here: curtjaimungal.substack.com/p/the-highs-and-lows-of-meeting-roger. They weren't interruptions, but we had to edit that in for reasons explained in the article. I appreciate the feedback. I'll certainly take it to heart and improve for next time. - Curt

[@aroemaliuged4776]

We have seen this before Shameful We shall unsubscribe if you keep it up

[@saltybits9954]

Gravity & Photons doesnt exist. It is an attribute of magnetism.

[@СергейИванов-ы1п8э]

His ridiculous idea about gravity collapses wave function goes against deep philosophical viewing of wave function as a black box hiding system from the observer. It is all about observer who is the only thing who collapses it, not gravity

[@VonJay]

“Observation” means stimulus. And what he’s said before is that the “system” per se becomes so complex that gravity has to step in. In technical terms, when a system becomes too energetic or massive, gravity starts to take noticeable effect. That’s why superposition only works to a certain point/energy/mass. Why this is relevant to observation is because for us to observe anything at very small scales we have to give those scales a bit of energy. We can’t observe anything without a transfer of energy. So the energy level that will give us a desired observation is too massive to neglect gravity, that is why we cannot see beyond the collapse of the wave function. Again, that is what he proposed and I’m only writing it here because what you wrote is really unclear.

[@01warmus]

You don't think Penrose knows that point of view? Nothing deep philosophically about black box interpretation of the wave function, nowadays its literarily a starting point for the discussion. If you want to end it there sure, but its definitely not Penrose being ridiculous.

[@Vito_Tuxedo]

Occasionally Sir Roger makes reference to people who are very disturbed by his ideas, which always seem eminently reasonable to me, to the extent that I understand them. I haven't encountered many such people, but I see that some of them are posting here. That's fine; all are entitled to their opinions. But I do admit to being somewhat surprised that Sir Roger's ideas are labeled "ridiculous" simply because they point out the deficiencies of an incomplete theory.

[@blijebij]

​@@Vito_Tuxedo Precisely, he tries to hold a mirror up to quantum theory to show its inconsistencies. I think that is very good, it shows he is not dogmatic, he evaluates, very realistic approach. In a way Sir Roger Penrose is besides his other high standing qualities also a true philosopher.

[@СергейИванов-ы1п8э]

@@VonJay You decided to give me a quick explanation of the physical aspects of the observation procedure, and suddenly it seems to me that you confused the topic of this video and our conversation with another phenomenon characterizing the concept of Planck length