Rogers & Spencer .44 Army: Possibly the Best Civil War Revolver

[@gwivongalois6169]

Wow, a civil war contract fulfilled on time and with alle the guns produced and accepted. That's a wonder in itself.

[@donjones4719]

Not just the US Civil War. That's a wonder for any firearms contract worldwide.

[@anon_y_mousse]

I wonder if it's the only time it's ever happened.

[@DB-yj3qc]

First and last time that's happened especially with out cost overrun's

[@Babayaga962]

It honestly kinda wholesome

[@michaelwright2986]

And the only thing that went wrong is that they were never used. Just can't win.

[@southronjr1570]

My Father joined the North-South Skirmish Assoc in 1968 and fell in love with everything to do about the matches and histroy, he even convinced the owner of Euroarms of America to hire him when they opened up in the early 70's as Vice President. Part of his job was obtaining and sending over to Italy, original civil war arms to be reverse engineered for introducing into the American reproduction market. He was responsible for several guns being placed into production including the Georgia Armory rifle and more importantly the EoA Rogers and Spencers revolvers. Well fast forward 20+years and he had long been gone from EoA and in payment for building a match grade 1855 Springfield for a team mate, he is offered a David Ball Accurised Rogers and Spencers. He accepts and about 6 months later, the gunsmith David Ball is killed in a car wreck on the way home from a National match in Winchester VA. All of the guns he touched instantly skyrocket in value and collectability. My father never would sell his Rogers and Spencers revolver. My father, Brannen M. Sanders, passed away in Aug of 2021 at the age of 75. Prior to his passing, he had discussed his arrangements that he wished, while my family members were not agreeable to letting me follow his wishes to the word, I was able to greatly upset certain family members by following one of his wishes. I waited u til the graveside service and specifically requested we have an open casket at the graveside to place flowers in the casket with him, being his youngest son, I insisted on going last at speaking before he was lower into the grave. At the end of the few words I had to say, I removed his Rogers and Spencers, fully loaded and sealed with beeswax and guns com wax, and placed his Rogers and spencers, one of the batch from the first shipment of Rogers and Spencers brought in by him from Italy by Euroarms Of America, and placed it in his hand. He had requested a loaded gun placed in the casket with him on the off chance that come judgement day, he doesn't like who he meets when his grave is opened, he wants to be able to shoot the devil in the eye.

[@richardw.9579]

Got to admire a man like that.

[@dzonbrodi514]

Lol that's nuts. Great story, thanks for sharing

[@cammobunker]

I own one of the Italian repros of the R&S. I can tell you it's a dream to shoot. The grip might look awkward, but it hangs the revolver just right and the whole thing just works. The R&S revolvers are a favorite of the old North/South skimish association competitive shoots, and are possibly the best single action C&B revolver design ever made from a target shooting/accuracy standpoint. They aren't fast to cock, as the hammer spur is a bit awkward to reach, but other than that they work like a charm. There was even a specially made target version from a euro manufacturer using special barrels and tuned lockwork.

[@JohnSmith-yv6eq]

Feinwerkbau?

[@normanmccollum6082]

Cool! I'm jealous!

[@robertrobert7924]

I own one of these also with a 45 LC conversion cylinder. It is a beautiful revolver.

[@jesscobb2279]

Does Uberti make them?

[@corneliussulla9963]

@@jesscobb2279 Nobody is making them at the moment. Unfortunately.

[@AllAhabNoMoby]

These old style percussion revolvers are SO beautiful.

[@brandonobaza8610]

"Well, I'm from Utica, and I've never heard of Rogers & Spencer" "It's more of an Albany revolver"

[@LouCooper]

Hits Eleven O'clock down here in Aus: "Ooh, new Forgotten Weapons video".

[@H.W.Robots]

Ahh a fellow Aussie of culture I see :)

[@brentfellers9632]

6 am in British columbia 🇨🇦, coffee and gun Jesus...gonna be a good day eh

[@thejayman1886]

6 am in saskatchewan. Drinking my morning joe. Greetings from Cana- HEY BUDDY WHAT ARE YOU DOING ON MY PRECIOUS CANADIAN LAND?

[@downunderrob]

Nine Thirty here on the West Coast of Oz. G'day to our Canadian cousins.

[@TK--ch9jl]

Me sitting in the midwest at 8 am: hmm what is ian talking bout today?

[@mottee]

Not only the Italians, but the mighty Feinwerkbau made a Rogers & Spencer copy, called FWB History no 2. It's still THE cap & ball revolver of serious black powder competition shooters. Unfortunately it's been out of production for many years.

[@corneliussulla9963]

Yep. I have one. Paid 1300€ for a used one. I will never sell it.

[@maximilianfranz2158]

Wow, i never knew Feinwerkbau was popular outside Germany

[@mottee]

@@maximilianfranz2158 Sure they are. As for completely off topic, I collect FWB air guns 😊

[@anon_y_mousse]

@@mottee Guns are never off topic, no matter what propellant they use. :)

[@pkre707]

I think the thing I love most about these Ian’s videos is all the esoteric history. That these people who at the time were not considered famous or anything, made their mark and are remembered hundreds of years later for their creations, effective or not. I can only dream of making such a mark. The historical world of firearms is just fascinating!

[@lordbertie7429]

Especially for people like me, who are not gun guys and only really interested in the stories and history! It's been said before, But Ian is an excellent presenter considering the niche history he is teaching

[@metrazol]

When in doubt, just keep emailing different people at the DoD until money comes out.

[@myfavoritemartian1]

Sweet looking revolver. I can see where a lot of the Colt problems were finally fixed. That flared grip, the smooth curve of the grip to the frame are really nice. As is the loading lever latch.

[@45auto]

While I've heard of the revolvers I've never heard their history before. Thank you, sir.

[@marks1638]

So, the best Civil War revolver that never saw action during the Civil War or Indian Wars. Interesting! I remember seeing one at a gun show a few years. I was wondering why the guy had a Bannerman Arms Catalog next to the gun in the display and now I know why. He was too busy with other customers, and I never got to talk to him, so I wonder how he got that particular gun. I've always liked the back stories behind guns. That's why I enjoy this channel and enjoy talking to owners of old or peculiar arms. PS. I'm enjoying the Forgotten Weapons glass I just received a couple of weeks ago.

[@AsbestosMuffins]

what a wild time when you could buy a brand new civil war revolver and jump into your model T

[@crazysilly2914]

people were still using cap and ball percussion revolvers up until WW1...

[@josephseed7100]

Felons still do

[@juancarlossegadecanosa67]

My favorite black powder revolver, I love those grips, wide at the base, perfect fit in my hand.

[@areed2000]

1000% markup! Banner knew how to make a fortune on the tax payer dime.

[@Kladyos]

So do plenty of politicans! 🤣

[@Dapstart]

@@Kladyos And businesses. Basically every "non-profit" hospital both makes a profit and receives federal money on top, despite handily bankrupting customers the same.

[@johngz3413]

1200% profit

[@BobSmith-dk8nw]

@@randbarrett8706 Our Health Care System is run for the benefit of the Lawyers and Insurance Companies - not the Patients. .

[@con6lex]

Common problem. When I replace a piece of gear I keep the old one around way to long, but then it is almost worthless.

[@firstconsul7286]

These guys were in Utica, huh? That's not too far from home. Learning more and more about how Upstate NY isn't just a crap hole in the middle of Rochester and NYC, first with volunteering at Ft. Ontario, and learning the military history about the area, and now that there was some pretty cool manufacturing going on nearby. I bet some of these revolvers went to Ft. Ontario since that's just around the corner.

[@parrotraiser6541]

Surprising that anyone wanted black-powder cap-and-ball pistols in 1901; obsolete, but not yet old enough to have acquired a glow of historic nostalgia.

[@lobsterbark]

Maybe the cost of ammo was a factor here? I don't know precise numbers, but I get the impression that back in the day metallic cartridge ammo was quite expensive. Reading training manuals and such from back then, I get the impression that the cost was so high even organizations such as miliaries couldn't afford to buy enough for what we would today consider the bare minimum of range time. The technology for making large numbers of precision things (like shell casings) was quite bad at the time.

[@erik_dk842]

They were much cheaper to operate. The famous Ed McGivern shot thousands of rounds with Remington 1858's

[@Psilomuscimol]

Only applies to gunfighters though. And if you were one, you got free ammo every victory.

[@Radioactive661]

Amazing videos as always ian, much love and respect from Australia

[@brian8152]

amazing bluing for such an old gun. my colt 1892 DA revolver has pretty good bluing still as well but this looks even more uniform (tho on the colt its a shinier blue in the spots that the finish remains).

[@georgesheffield1580]

Most likely a polished rust blue job ,like London guns

[@SuperFunkmachine]

I wonder if they had an oven to do them all at once.

[@CandidZulu]

Very popular with target shooters in Europe! Feinwerkbau made a reproduction of it called History No2. A high end BP target gun.

[@Chiller01]

Nice solid looking revolver. I would feel a lot more comfortable behind this gun than many of the revolvers of small manufacturers of the period.

[@danilonakazone386]

Its nice to see and hear a happy story about gun making! Kind bad the guns never saw use, it would be nice to know how they performed in use, but Its really nice how good condition they are!

[@capnstewy55]

Now that's a markup worthy of a movie theater.

[@shawnr771]

Very nice pistol. Thank you for the lesson.

[@leppeppel]

Even with that intro, I was still waiting for a catch that never came.

[@AndrewAMartin]

The catch was that they never saw service and spent decades in a warehouse before being sold as surplus when they were long obsolete. Seems like the Army forgot they existed...

[@TotalRookie_LV]

It might sound awful from a business and financial point of view, but makes sense to keep the best in the arsenal and get rid of junk.

[@cheyannei5983]

Speaking of junk, we have a lot of M1 Abrams (NOT A1'S) equipped with the dinky, old 105mm, first gen armor packages, etc. We should probably divest ourselves of them and get the ball rolling on an M2 so the A1's can take their spot.

[@thejayman1886]

@@cheyannei5983 hahaha fgm-148 Javelin go *WOOSH KABOOM!*

[@cheyannei5983]

@@thejayman1886 The K2 actually has a Javelin-esque missile launcher from the 120mm. It's very nice. The tank can have infantry acquire the target and fire indirectly from five miles away. Top attack EFP, so ERA tiles aren't effective.

[@thejayman1886]

@@cheyannei5983 Nice! Thanks for the extra information bro!

[@sypernova6969]

oh man! I want to see you load, shoot and reload that beast!

[@davidjernigan8161]

Really well built. It looks like it could be loaded up and shot today with no issues.

[@pappamike6231]

My thoughts exactly.

[@davidcox3076]

It's a shame they never got issued after the war. They would have stood up well to service out on the western frontier.

[@tropicaltrucker4425]

I just got my hands on one of these as payment for some trade work. It was in rough shape but after 4 hours of restoration and headache; it is looking really good. It is insane how few parts are in these old girls. The hammer on mine has been slammed into the cylinder a few to many times so its got a little bend to the right, (got a buddy who is going to heat it and press it back into shape) but aside from that; The numbers all match up and it is ready to have a few lead balls and fire tossed through it for the first time since dirt was invented.

[@rkirschner7175]

OUTSTANDING. Thank you. 🦅

[@howler6490]

What a great piece...such simplicity...awesome work by the originators. Looks "just like all the others " but definitely deserves its own segment. Well done Ian...

[@loupiscanis9449]

Thank you , Ian . 🐺

[@majorlee76251]

Fine shooting revolver. Got the replica.

[@corneliussulla9963]

Me too. German production by Feinwerkbau. The flagship of my collection.

[@majorlee76251]

@@Angelum_Band dont have a Remington, but better that the 1860 army colt

[@JamesThomas-gg6il]

I would have loved to go through bannerman's warehouse.

[@johngaither9263]

Bannerman built a Castle on Bannerman's Island in the Hudson River. The castle was built from cement that rifles from a South American revolution had been smuggled in. Smugglers use cheap materials in their line of work, so the cement wasn't any good. So unfortunately, neither was Bannerman's castle.

[@davedoane4281]

It was a great revolver to do a metallic cartridge conversion with. never got to hold a conversion but have seen them behind a glass case. If you ever get your hands on one I would be interested in seeing a video.

[@corneliussulla9963]

Btw the Rogers and Spencer has one big flaw. It lacks a hammer rest in the back of the cylinder. No groove like in the Remingtons, nor a pin like in the Colts. So, you would either load only 5 chambers or walk around with the risk of the hammer on halfcock.

[@loboheeler]

Yep, the Remington has a great easy to use cylinder safe position. It also does not require a tool to remove the cylinder. I can do a "Pale Rider" cylinder change fairly fast with my Uberti.

[@corneliussulla9963]

@@loboheeler Yep. I do have some spare cylinders for my Remington but had them only once at the range. After having to clean them, I decided that it wasnt such a great idea after all. ;-)

[@JohnSmith-yv6eq]

@@corneliussulla9963 Before ultrasound cleaners?

[@corneliussulla9963]

@@JohnSmith-yv6eq I dont have such space technology. But I have a small wire cup brush and a cordless screwdriver.

[@AndrewAMartin]

@@corneliussulla9963 No need for such aggressive cleaning tools - soap and water and an old toothbrush are sufficient. Black powder residue isn't THAT hard to clean... Bonus tip: hydrogen peroxide makes a great hand cleaner for black powder...

[@ddimoulis]

"All you have to do is rotate it 90 degrees" - proceeds to turn the screw 45 degrees . HAahahahah. Love ya, Ian.

[@stevejorgensen5274]

A little late on this. Quite a few years ago I ran across a R&S cartrage conversion at a gun show. The price was cheap but I has already spent the cash I had with me. The tag said it was in 44 Colt. I almost went back with cash to buy it but didn't. I regret not going back as it would have went with my original Colt Richard's conversion. As always great video.

[@richardmedeiros4337]

I had a repo one, and out shot a friend with colt 45,must have been lucky that day,great fit in the hand and easy to load

[@YaoiMastah]

I'm a happy owner of one of those Italian reproductions. And I must say, it is absolute by far the best shooting gun in my collection. No hickups, never jams, fits perfect in my hand, unlike those Remington revolvers. It's a delight to shoot, and I've even won several competitions with it. And all that for a meagre 25 euros (I got it secondhand).

[@Gordonseries385]

👍 Thank you for the history, Ian. Take care!

[@KVW22]

Another great video, absolutely love the civil war Era firearms, favorite videos from you, keep it up!

[@SkarabCZ]

Beautiful video. There is something magical about 19th century revolvers. Greetings from the Czech republic.

[@tltc191]

Utica, NY for the win. Home if Savage arms and Rogers and Spencer. Right down the road a bit from Remington Arms in Ilion, NY

[@brucebello2049]

Great story Ian, thanks for bringing it to us, cheers

[@chaddnewman2699]

The ruins of Bannerman’s Castle sit on an island in the middle of the Hudson River just north of West Point. Fascinating man and I was tickled to learn of his connection to these pistols.

[@timbaskett6299]

Really a great looking pistol. Even above the Remington 1858, my personal favorite large bore cap and ball revolver.

[@TimberwolfCY]

Man, it's nice to hear a story that actually turned out well. Seems like a great wheelgun there, wow.

[@carlettoburacco9235]

That Dealer ...... when he sold 4 out of 4982 he was already in the black. When you see old photos from the turn of the century, you still see a lot of similar ones around. Not a bad deal

[@BIGGIEEEECHEESE]

First thing I wake up to is a forgotten weapons video…today’s going to be a good day

[@LordRaa]

It's heartening to hear about a successful Civil War contract.

[@Vincent-S]

Always nice to hear of the success stories of the Civil War gun manufacturers that didn’t either constantly fail to meet their contract quotas in time or by volume and got their contracts cancelled and slowly disappeared a while after or just outright died when the war ended because surprise, surprise, wars don’t really last forever.

[@stevewarren4292]

I know that by 1901 cartridge revolvers were common, but I suppose percussion firearms were still in service. This was probably a good economical alternative for someone on a budget that just needed a utility firearm in 1901.

[@tberkoff]

I'm surprised you didn't mention that it looks very much like the Remington New Model Army revolver.

[@RedGnoll]

Maybe it's a little too obvious. They look even more similiar to the smaller caliber Spiller & Burr in the way you remove the cylinder, although they're made of proper blued steel.

[@22BOZIDAR]

The Spiller and burr, is a copy of the Whitney revolver.

[@RedGnoll]

@@22BOZIDAR Yes, I believe Ian made a video on the S&P a while ago explaining this, which is where I saw the disassembly process with a similar screw holding the loading lever in place I believe.

[@wolfmann2023]

I enjoyed the video especially the history lesson, thank you for that Ian

[@danielburgess7785]

Ian does the homework, also has an encyclopedia in his head.

[@hbowlan]

Now that is a well designed gun. There is a beauty to this kind of design.

[@KathrynLiz1]

The R&S owes much to the Remington New Army design, many features of which it embodies. The Rogers' action work is not as robust as the Remington but nevertheless it is a fine revolver; the only one IMHO that is in the same ballpark as the Remington for reliability. I do love the grip on the Rogers... it's one of the nicest single action grips shapes ever made. A fine weapon by any standard.

[@johnpatrickmcp]

A few years back at a garage sale I found some early 1900s copies of the bannerman catalog and man I wish I could have a time machine to go back and order some things out of it.

[@David_Crayford]

Nice beefy clicks as you rotate the cylinder on this old thing. 🙂

[@AccidentalNinja]

Nice to hear a success story rather than them biting off more than they could chew.

[@Shaggy8675]

I used to have one, shoot it every week. Amazing gun and the best sa trigger i ever had including tuned s&w revolvers Had to part with it, but stil miss it.

[@wjgrind]

nicely done, of the few original pistols of that era I have the R&S feels the best in my hand. If it had been issued early in the war we would be talking about it instead of the 1860 Colt or 1858 Remington.

[@Eddythebandkid]

I did enjoy, Thank you too Ian

[@jessestreet2549]

7:21 "the crap got sold", cue the anguished cries of the Colt Army .44 fans. p.s. i owned and assembled a cva .44. great design.

[@jaredniehaus3242]

What a beautiful pistol. I can tell it’s well made just by looking at it.

[@brian8152]

ive heard of the Pattengil double action revolvers, i see them on gunbroker sometimes

[@johnchristopher20]

I live 20 miles from “Bannerman’s Island” as it’s known. There are videos about it on KZbin; I recommend looking at them for a fascinating history story.

[@theangrymick9743]

I’m less than 5 miles from it myself. I see it everyday on my commute.

[@Old.Monkey.Bones.]

Excellent video Ian, pleased you have done this one. I have one of the Feinwerkbau R&S revolvers and it shoots very well indeed.

[@redsky8509]

I had a pair of modern made ones. yes fantastic pistol.

[@erikbender1]

I have a navy arms reproduction. I wanted it because my grandfather showed me his original that he paid 4.00 for.

[@interestingoldthings4889]

A lot about this design is reminiscent of the Whitney (and its Spiller & Burr copy) revolvers, down to the sight arrangement, the flared grip, and the way the cylinder axis pin/rammer assembly is retained. The overall proportions are different, but the details are similar.

[@albertforletta1498]

Thank you for the work and time that you put into your videos. I watch all of your videos, and I am always entertained while I’m learning something interesting.

[@jack1701e]

Honestly this gun is if nothing else aesthetically pleasing. Looks no nonsense and reliable!

[@d33b33]

Funny how the same... ratio still exists in US surplus sales in Europe. Not guns, obviously, but Hummers, Blazers etc. They're sold in lots by the kilo to licensed buyers and the bidding ends somewhere in the 60-70 Euro cent per kilo. A hummer is 4000 kilo, so 2600 Euro for a US surplus Hummer ($ to € roughly 1:1) is an incredible deal if the car was a pristine garage queen, of which there are a rare few. There are also be IED victims in the lot, or ripped from the woods while it had trees growing through them, and everything in between. So I go the this guy's website and the H1 6.2 liter diesels start at 25K Euro. He says yeah each one of those has about 18K euro's of parts and labor in them, combining wrecks into working, decent looking H1s but full of spray painted over get this sh!t out the door snot welds. If you do the math, it's Francis Bannerman's same margin, but going 26 cents to $3.10, up to 70 cents to $6.25 per kilo. This scrap dealer is using Francis Bannerman's formula in 2022.

[@erik_dk842]

The way surplus auctions are set up, you would think that their purpose was to get as little revenue as possible. Whenever there are items of interest for common people, they lump them together so the total price gets out of reach, even though the price per unit is very low. I have also heard stories of army personnel deliberately destroying stuff right before the auction.

[@JohnSmith-cn4cw]

Always learn something from these videos.

[@randywatson8347]

That is a beautifully machined revolver.

[@josephalexander3884]

Excellent video as always. Thank you.

[@greenbroccolistudios1275]

Nice revolver Stranger! *Eagle sound*

[@geoffreyrussell660]

How about a video on Francis Bannerman??

[@variacenavsiav9945]

Nice to hear about miracles. Puzzle is puzzle. Thank you.

[@shreksleftnut8190]

I would love to see Ian talk about how firearm manufacturing has changed over the centuries, from ye olden times to modern stuff. He visited that factory making links for ammo, and that was cool(IMO). As he said in this video, making guns isn't easy. And he's gone on record in other videos to talk about how it takes a long ass time to get shit set up to make em. I'm just saying it's a topic I'd be interested in hearing more about... gimme likes so he can see?

[@shreksleftnut8190]

It's the kinda thing that would take multiple videos to cover different eras, gun types, countries' specific methods, etc.

[@davidcarr7436]

First thing in the morning coffee and Forgotten Weapons

[@CurtHowland]

I've always preferred the revolvers with a top-strap.

[@kartapuce3814]

A beauty.

[@seanfoltz7645]

That's so sad that such a good gun ended up with a history of "sat in a warehouse for forty years and then was finally released to the public long after it was obsolete."

[@ronaldjohnson1474]

And then sold for pennies on the dollar. Typical government waste!

[@schwkrls]

I swear this is the first successful contract I've ever seen on this channel. Even many big-name firearms start off pretty rough.

[@fhorst41]

Wait... you're in PA? In my back yard? Welcome to the area. Love your videos.

[@bwhog]

Hmm.. Never heard of this but I like what I see! I should add this to my list.

[@jensenwilliam5434]

Love guns . Thank you for your videos!!

[@antjeeismann4684]

I enjoyed the Video! 👍

[@nlb2000]

Traded a scooter for one a few years ago.......... I didn't even know what it was when I traded, took a risk and it looks like it paid off lol

[@Psilomuscimol]

I bought a running Vespa for $100 and sold it for $200 to a guy in my neighborhood

[@pripjatyfighter3786]

4:01 "So let's take a look what they came up with" = LET ME SHOW YOU ITS FEATURES!!!

[@johnwillis4706]

I inherited two of these from my Grandfather. Each revolver has two spare cylinders. They are in excellent condition. My Grandfather got them from his father. Not sure where Great Granddad got them.

[@raznaak]

99.64% chance they're from Bannerman 😂

[@remiel3315]

My dad and I both have a Euroarms Rodgers and Spencer, and compared to my lyman 1858 new model army, they are a lot smoother in some respects, but slower to remove the cylinder compared to the 1858, and accurate as hell, ours are .452-454 bore diameter, Id love an original one

[@VoidmageCassidy]

So happy I was awake at 9 for this

[@smittywerben3400]

There is a company here in germany called Feinwerkbau that made replicas of these revolvers. These are some of the best muzzleloader revolvers, well regarded amongst sportshooters but prices of these replicas are very high. See you next year at IWA 2023 Ian.

[@motog6436]

Next time we have a civil war we'll have to hold on to all the surplus until nostalgia kicks in and they become valuable antiques. What else are we gonna do with all the ARs when the gun stores only sell phased plasma rifles?

[@georgeboultadakis8530]

Best replica, peitta from Italy 🇮🇹 hands down

[@notme123123]

You should do a story on Bannerman and his island in the Hudson River.

[@thejayman1886]

I know I said this before elsewhere but, can you please do a sand and or mud test on the 1886 winchester? You have not done a mud or sand test on a lever action rifle in a long time. I think the 1886 is a good fit for a sand test because it has strong locking blocks with tight tolerances. Thanks! Edit: thanks for the likes everyone. I hope Ian sees this. If you're reading this Ian, know this; you're my hero. You're a lot of peoples hero. God bless.

[@mattnw42]

or a 92 or 94

[@thejayman1886]

@@mattnw42 I want to see the 1886 because nobody ever talks about it. It is the red-headed middle child. It deserves its time in the sun because it is extremely underappreciated for what it is and was.

[@thejayman1886]

@@mattnw42 this is pretty much what you're looking for though: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nGacpXuFbZJ7oqs

[@tommyw.9424]

@@thejayman1886 I love the 1886, it gave us the great 1892 in its scaled down form and the weaker but also great 1894 action.

[@thejayman1886]

@@tommyw.9424 I have my great grandfathers 1886 chambered in 40-65 (26" octagonal barrel, dual apperature open-ring peep sight") and I love it. I care for it daily. Best shooting gun ever. Recoil goes straight upwards not backwards into your shoulder. The only "bad" thing I can say about it is that cleaning is a pain in the ass because the gun is not designed to come appart.