Romans 9 Commentary by Leighton Flowers

[@dougplug493]

Leighton, thanks very much for your study on this. I've been a believer for 39 years, grew up in Southern Baptist circles and have been debating Calvinists in my own ineffective way for years. Although these thoughts have crossed my mind in study, I have struggled to organize and articulate. This is very helpful! Much needed ministry in my opinion.

[@nicholascarter6543]

Amen. Praise God

[@tyn3496]

As a fellow formerly confused calvinist, thank you. Just thank you.

[@d.ryanwebb1166]

This is exactly what I've been looking for. Praise God who inspired you to make this video, and thank you for being ready to His will!

[@redfaux74]

Wow.... this is meaty and full of gravy, vegetables and nutrients. And compassion. When I hear this, I think of the song "Vessel of Honor" by Wade Spencer. Great message. Very humbling. I cannot wait to meet Jesus, my Savior, and kneel at His feet.

[@mariepybus894]

Amen

[@redfaux74]

@@mariepybus894 - Have you heard that song? Look it up on KZbin....

[@adamali4846]

This is the best commentary on Romans 9 I have ever had the privilege of hearing!

[@Kris-sg7op]

So grateful for your book! I was conflicted with the contradictions being passed off as"just one of God's paradoxes we weren't meant to understand".

[@bigdbeatty]

Thank you so much for your explanation. Romans makes so much sense now! its all coming together. I go to a Calvinist church and every sermon and every bible study is defending Calvinism. Do you ever wonder why they spend all their time and have to work so hard to defending their doctrine. I engage in long debates with all the educated leaders of the church on Calvinism. A simple, pew sitter, bible reader like myself, learning from Dr. Flowers, can frustrate them so much they have to bring in reinforcements and call more scholarly Calvinist to engage in discussion with me. Thank you Dr. Flowers!

[@johndisalvo6283]

Way to go Bekah!!!!!

[@ThaNewDealer723]

Amen Bekah! A lowly pew-sitter, making them scramble for back up. Hope you've been well and are holding strong in Truth.

[@JamesLee-pb6dl]

You go Bekah!!

[@d.ryanwebb1166]

May God give you strength, courage, wisdom, understanding, and knowledge, and may He go before you in might, casting down falsehoods, to give you the victory. God bless you!

[@lindapb6529]

Beautiful. I do want more, so I'm buying the book, thanks

[@lindapb6529]

kukak bear I'm sorry, was my post directed to you?

[@sp4gsus]

kukak bear so the only book you own is the Bible. I think that’s a load of you know what. You probably have 5 copies of the potters freedom, 2 or 3 chosen by Gods and at least one systematic theology on your shelf admit it!

[@sp4gsus]

kukak bear books are simply teachings in written form. It’s the same as hearing a message. Do you go to church and hear a message? Why would you, according to your philosophy, if the “bible is sufficient”? The Bible talks about teaching in a positive light except when it’s false. Train up a child...should the child say to his parent I don’t need you I have the Bible! Paul writes to Titus in your teaching show integrity and sound speech etc, well why should Titus teach someone if they have the Bible to teach them? Teachers will be judged with greater strictness...in this statement God condones good teaching. As well as the flip side...I don’t permit a woman to teach....so there is teaching that is acceptable and useful. Your reasoning is faulty. Why go on KZbin to listen and critique messages if you have everything you need from the Bible? God uses men to explain and shed light on his word. God has used leighton in a powerful way to contend for the faith and help some who have been led astray by a false teaching brought into the church by certain men who crept in unawares. I praise God for that. I have learned and grown closer to the Lord with the help of godly men who have written great books which give glory to God by their illumination.

[@christopherlampman5579]

You are the only non-Calvinist/non-Catholic I know providing deep theological insight on these issues.

[@elizabethneil2658]

I know this is an older video, but I needed this

[@kevinteichroeb6997]

Thank you, Dr. Flowers, for all your hard work.

[@karenlippett4342]

once again brother, you have served the body of Christ well. Thank you thank you for your diligent walk through of your book. Blessings to you and your family. Keep going.

[@mindaheath1484]

This is so insightful, I have never heard or read such a clear explanation of Romans. I also want to add that I can see no practical advantage of subscribing to a Calvinistic view.

[@djohnson3093]

Wonderful job brother! I'm really enjoying The Potters Promise. It's slow going as I'm beating your references to death but it sure has been worth it! Romans 9 makes so much more sense when applied to the Bible as a whole and not just bits and pieces of stand alone verses. Imagine seeing Romans 9 in a way that isn't in opposition to the rest of the Word of God. Thanks for your hard work and God bless!

[@darryld.8616]

I suggest you read The Potters Freedom by James White and compare. Also read The Death of Death in the Death of Christ by John Owen. Shoot plus read The Attributes of God by A.W. Pink. You will hopefully then put Leightons book down in a fireplace somewhere...trust me.

[@stevenestes9355]

No thanks, I want to hear truth not Augustine's corruption of scripture.

[@elijah11162]

Wow, thanks professor. I grew up under calvinist teachers like R.C. Sproul (who I admit was a fantastic Bible teacher), but something just didn't sit right with me. This is really helpful.

[@orangepeel3465]

Excellent

[@fedot86b]

God bless you! I knew that God is Love, the only stumbling stone was this chapter, and now all clear.

[@unschoolinghomesteader7395]

Watching this for the umpteenth time. Thanks Dr Flowers.

[@SheepDog1974]

Until the scripture becomes memorized

[@makingsmokesince76]

This was superb. Many thanks and God bless.

[@kevinburtnick7818]

Leighton, superb video! It would be wonderful if your book was available on audible. Some of us are on the go much of the time and audible is my goto for listening. I hope you consider that. Lord Bless you and your family ..and keep up the good work. Jude 3 --->Contend, contend, condend! 2 Tim 2:15----> study, study, study and context context context You nailed it Brother!

[@alexmccormick759]

Such great teaching! I have to get this book!

[@artistjra]

Thanks so much for your explanation of Romans 9. You certainly made it's proper understanding very clear. It is astounding to me how people can follow the teachings of John Calvin, who thought nothing of having anyone that disagreed with him killed. I sincerely believe that he was never saved. He had NO LOVE for his fellow Christians. I believe that he was demonically inspired to impune the character and heart of God.

[@adlyemontanez8074]

this was a perfect explanation

[@sethpawlik]

Thank you Leighton.

[@godsaveamerica2611]

I’m glad you clear that up because Paul wanting to be accursed and cut off from Christ because of his kinsmen, according to the flesh, for no longer being handlers of the oracles of God makes so much more sense.

[@GR-dk5ju]

since not sense @20:19... might want to check that out if a second addition is ever published. Regardless, thank you for your work and ministry - I know I speak for many when I say it's been a great help and encouragement. God bless.

[@malvokaquila6768]

Fantastic exegesis Dr. Flowers.

[@emmanuelwillis]

Thanks for the video! Very insightful!

[@baruch4401]

Thank you Sir! Great teaching that lifts my spirit. I've come to the conclusion that it does not matter what the Calvinists believe, what matters is what the Word of God, the Bible, says. Obviously the two are diametrically opposed.

[@SpielbergMichael]

Praise God for this great video !

[@ricardotiger2601]

Excellent

[@omnitheus5442]

Definitely sheds light on why the majority of Calvinists are also Replacementists/Supercessionists.

[@toomanymarys7355]

No. They are right about supercession. Read ANY major Christian figure before 1700. ANY. Dispensational, there-is-a-true-Israel-remaining theology is far more of an unbiblical innovation than Calvinism is. At least they can point to Augustine as evidence!

[@mosart7025]

@@toomanymarys7355 Wouldn't the Roman Catholic church's dislike of the Jews have something to do with that viewpoint before 1700? Oh, and Luther's?

[@RealInsaneGalvatron]

I read Romans 9 just on my own, without a Calvinist present, and I came to the same conclusions they believe. My struggle was reconciling it with verses like John 3:16. I just started this video but I'm hoping you'll be the first non-Calvinist in my 19 years as a Christian to explain what this does mean. Usually I'm just told what it doesn't mean, despite seemingly clearly teaching that.

[@Pianonote78]

God loves the world. He sent his son. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. He that believes not shall be damned. Those who are damned can’t blame God, he sent his son. They reject his message and die in their sins. Any questions?

[@SheepDog1974]

​@@Pianonote78😂good summary

[@sarahherzog7422]

Thank you for all you do, your content has helped me understand so much!! God bless u!!

[@DrGeorgeAntonios]

I appreciate your ministry and hard work, very helpful. Would God however you use the King James Bible. Aside the fact that the other versions sound so hard on the ear and like guy on the street, they also change the words and then every one chooses their pet version that matches their doctrine, as Calvinists also do. Either way, God bless you.

[@deshrajkumar7355]

Thanks sir!

[@vishalsuresh3637]

A reading of Romans 10 and 11 will provide a better understanding of Romans 9. In brief, it says that God uses the fallen ones to call unbelievers. The fallen ones don't remain fallen but can be made full (Romans 10).

[@rob5462]

It amazes me how Calvinists cannot see the obvious if they read Romans 9 in the context of Paul's quotations of the OT. There certainly is blindness and personally, I cannot escape the conclusion that 2 Cor. 4:4 provides us with the source of this blindness. The roots of deterministic theology in Gnosticism and Manacheiam which the apostles identified as antichrist confirm, to me, the reasonableness of my conclusion.

[@jdoe97]

The lot is cast into the lap but its every decision is from the Lord. Prov 16:33 I would wonder how you interpret this verse.

[@GatheringJacob]

I will get the book and read it. I don’t think it was a good choice to read the book on video. You should have just expounded verbally what was in it. It was hard the follow along in my view.

[@jamesjohnson8918]

I'm just grateful that God looked down the hallways of time and show something in me that was worth saving. God crammed His irresistible grace right down my throat.

[@loganross1861]

Leighton can you do a show on Freemasonry in the SBC? What you say is great, but if Freemasons are entrenched in the SBC then there’s little reason to think we’d be safer in the SBC. that’d be my big concern, that there’s just an equally if not more dangerous agent.

[@sezor9764]

Praise the Lord. I've been made known by the Spirit that the children of the flesh are the children of the law and the Children of the promise are the children through Christ(the ultimate promise before the foundation of the world). Christ shall rule over the Law for he is the Law. The sign through Jacob coming out right next by grabing Esau's heel is the sign of Christ coming after the age of law(but not separated). Jacob i loved but Esau i hated. The sovereign decision by God for Jews to disobey is the potter making for dishonorable use which would lead to gentiles obedience. If we read the entire chapter with this in mind than it will all make sense but we can never Question his sovereign decision making. And i dont think its for individual election for salvation. For if i continue reading than its all crystal clear for rom 9.

[@themotorcycleguy5980]

What about john 3 and 2 half of john 6? So it's it totally up to me? What about it being a work of the holy spirit? Cause when i was saved, i hadn't been to church in years, hadn't heard any preaching, didn't care nothing about God, but when i broke down over allot of things and didn't have any reason to live, out of nowhere while i was crying, i said jesus if your there, if your real, if you can help, please help, attend that was it. Then i after a few days i started craving the bible, started reading and praying and started to see all my sin while i read, and repented, the holy spirit changed me, made me a new creature and gave me new desires, and been growing and producing fruit ever since.... if it was me, where did jesus come from, since i hadn't thought about him for years? I was born of the spirit but was it my decision?? I want to know

[@tivmego]

Those are exceptions. The norm is that someone preach the gospel to you. That is what doctrine means. Doctrine doesn't mean God cannot act outside the standards. The case of Paul is an example, the case of Lydia is another and there are muslims who come to Christ through dreams and visions. These are exceptions NOT the norm. The doctrine is that someone reach you with the gospel and you believe it and confess with your mouth(notice again this is not assuming a person who cannot speak cannot accept Jesus).

[@MrFahimself]

People are not saved by regular church attendance. People are saved when they believe the Word of God (Christ). From what you have said, it is because you believed, that you genuinely cried out "Please help" :) Was it your choice to humble yourself and cry out to Christ to save you? God saves the humble. Remember the account of the prodigal son. He was once lost, he was once "dead" (separated from God). But one day, He decided to come back home. And His father graciously accepted him. This seems like what has happened to you. In your "dark place", you remembered the gospel message you heard ages ago. And you humbled yourself and cried out for help. Grace and peace be multiplied to you.

[@danielletracyann]

Yes but did you decide in that moment you wanted Jesus? Was that your choice to call out to Him?

[@Dmlaney]

its funny how Calvinist claim that you are misrepresenting them when they end up saying their theology is shrouded in mystery which means that they dont even know what it means... hahaha

[@loganross1861]

Dmlaney lol that’s hilarious...and so true...

[@Dmlaney]

Finally a Calvinist who can answer all of Leighton's questions. Get ready Leighton... hahahah

[@emmanuelwillis]

Oh the doctrines of “grace“/doctrines of demons has blocked the light of God‘s word from another soul that God’s Son, Jesus Christ, died for kukak bear. Maybe you could watch some of Dr. flowers videos all the way through with a humble heart and you might learn something.

[@20july1944]

Kucky: Most people are going to hell, right? I'm sure we agree on that.

[@JohnQPublic11]

kuku bear = all ad hominem no plausible arguments.

[@yeshuaislord3058]

thank you my brother leighton!

[@joemarisolmeron8798]

Amen7x I hope I could buy your book sir It just not possible here in auh

[@samwilliamson5152]

Hi Dr. Flowers, It seems the translation of verse 22 is of great importance here. Use of the phrase “although choosing” vs “wanting” and the terms vessels of “wrath” and “mercy” vs “noble” and “common” use greatly changes the scope in which interpretation could take place. Could you provide some reasoning as to why this translation should be used over others which make a non-Calvinistic reading harder?

[@froginda4321]

I know this is going to ruffle feathers, but have you ever taken a look at the American Translation of this Chapter? I know when referring to other translations people start to freak out a bit, but most don't even know who the people are translating the Bible they are reading to begin with. Anyways, you probably know who Edgar J Goodspeed is and how much he contributed to the modern translations people use to this very day. I was watching this video and decided to look at it in many of the translations used today, ESV, KJV, NASB, etc. I was looking on the bookshelf and the American Translation (aka. Goodspeed Translation) caught my eye. The explanation you give in this video about Romans 9 is displayed in this Translation. I was wondering if you might comment on this? Maybe you think the Goodspeed translation is inaccurate, idk? It's worth taking a look in any case. Romans 9 is kind of a tricky Chapter. One could easily read it and think its jumping back and forth from one semi expressed thought to another. Keep up the good work!

[@rodneyanderson2600]

Great video

[@thearamsay9578]

Just one thing: Hagar wasn’t a prostitute. She was a secondary wife of Abraham, and the whole idea was far up by Sarah.

[@sanchezsanchez2700]

Pastor Flowers. Do you have this is Spanish.?

[@djkinglz7019]

Why is your position always off the back of Calvinistic attacks. Can you make clear your position as though Calvinism didn’t exist? Meaning positively? I thought this was a commentary of Romans 9? Not a counter-Calvinist view of Romans 9?

[@SheepDog1974]

I tend to agree. Teach me the text. Don't attack the opposition view

[@josephirgang6470]

It's really not uncommon to address known opponent positions to scholastic commentary. The institutes by Calvin himself or Systematic theology by Wayne Grudem address known opponent positions. Honestly its not that weird or out of bounds. In most cases its even helpful in my opinion.

[@jonathandavid9720]

Flowers is knowledgeable that most of Romans 9 IS presented by many thru Calvinist lenses, hence the “alternate” view.

[@villarrealmarta6103]

Basically, many people have been chosen to hear and know the special revelation about Jesus Christ. I am an example. But there are some who lived and died and never had. Do you see the grace in that? I have received undeserved grace, for that is what grace actually means that it is undeserved. I am no better than those individuals who never heard about the messiah. But God worked it out so well for me that he made sure I would receive this grace. All to him I owe.

[@brianvanderkodde7113]

Those that have never heard the gospel and die have nature to testify to them according to Psalm 19. The Holy Spirit seeks to use many things to draw them to an understanding of himself. If they respond to His conviction he will give them more light. If they don’t respond then he allows them to continue in their futile thinking. I know a person that was raised in the Andes her in Perú where I live. Her village was entirely Quechua speaking and she had never heard the gospel. One day she realized that the sun could not be God. She asked God to reveal himself to her. He died and she trusted Christ through the vision she received. Years later the missionaries arrived to her village and shared the same message of Christ that she had already received. Many people have shared similar experiences. God is not willing that any should perish. He is completely just and loving.

[@daveh8405]

So God is completely at the mercy of people to make their decisions and then he will use their actions to bring about his will?

[@graftme3168]

This was excellent!

[@samanthathedog5678]

In the golden calf passage they rebelled after the exodus from Egypt, and in the new testament times they rebelled after the exodus from sin. In Exodus they stumbled because Moses took so long on the mountain, and in the new testament they stumbled because of Jesus.

[@rogeliohernandez3719]

I don't know why I can't share your videos. Many friends have informed me, they can't open it. For example: Sovereignty Decalvinized. Any idea?

[@profetik777]

Almost half way done with the commentary and I'll be honest I still dont see it. If anyone would like to discuss with me please let me know bc I'm getting a lot of preamble and disclaimers that seemingly, in my opinion, just try to normalize the stretch required to turn Romans 9 to something esle....w. all do respect. I'm going back to finish this 2 hour video...pray for me bc I really want to know the truth.

[@TimothyFish]

What do you not see?

[@Skyler-v3]

Reformed expositors are very much clearer and consistent on these verses most especially Dr. James White, wow he’s really a great guy. 😍

[@rob5462]

Reformed expositors are very much simpler but totally wrong and frequently arrogant.

[@janepatton8100]

@@rob5462 Arrogance is a personal trait. I don't think it comes attached to opinions that oppose your view.

[@JamesLee-pb6dl]

Nah

[@clayton4917]

Does Flowers believe Esau was saved? Are we told in the scriptures?

[@pken75]

Is the word adoption in verse 4 irrelevant to salvation?

[@sanchezsanchez2700]

Pastor Flowers. Do you have anything in Spanish. Unfortunately In my culture we have two big Pentecostal and Calvinist Baptist beliefs and in my opinion both are somewhat correct but. I find it hard to believe me in a God who created a humanity to be condemned with out any opportunity for salvation.

[@edsnyder2801]

There is but One Spirit Of Truth! To abide In Christ, is to follow Christ! The Doctrine Of Christ! It is Only the Doctrine Of Christ that shall lead Us (THE CHURCH), into The Way Of The Truth (JESUS). The scriptures that the apostate church today are wresting to their own destruction have been clearly made known! The things that are hard to be understood in things pertaining to Salvation, have been clearly made known to All! But the tares believe that The Lord has bought the tares, his enemies, the children of the wicked one, whom JESUS openly and undeniably proclaimed to their faces who they really were! Jesus cannot lie! The tares have departed from the simplicity of The Doctrine Of Christ! You see, the time that they ought to be teachers, they have need that someone teach them again the first principles of the Doctrine Of Christ. But, and if, Any have fallen away? Then it would be impossible to renew them again unto repentance! Matthew himself, as All True Disciples of Christ understand The simplicity of The Doctrine Of Christ. Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a Son, and thou shalt call His name JESUS; for He Shall Save His People from their sins. A 4 year old child can understand this concept! It is The Doctrine Of Christ that Paul uses to bring Us (THE CHURCH), unto The Unity Of The Faith, in whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named! Predestination and election are both inseparable from the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery of the Gospel! The preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of The Mystery Of The Gospel has been clearly made known unto All Nations (All Men), therefore All shall be without excuse! Jesus clearly Promises the reconciliation of All Things! But the All Things, do not include the tares, the children of the wicked one, who willfully, perversely, and deliberately wrest clear scriptures unto their own destruction in things pertaining to Salvation, that HAVE BEEN CLEARLY MADE KNOWN!

[@haasklaw764]

What accent do you have Mr. Flowers? Sounds super familiar

[@iJedi_aye]

Texan

[@ladillalegos]

What is the name of that song ?please ( and singer)

[@nesto2851]

What’s the song name in the intro

[@EricSmyth4Christ]

God throws a dice and Wills the dice to roll "on their own" and to generate a "random" value. (The reason is for His Glory, but you can also use God's Entertainment, or God's Expression of Creativity, or God having Fun for the example) The dice themselves will have different effects depending on what number is shown at the end. At the same time of the roll, even before He rolls it, God knows what each of the dice will land on be before he throws it, because He is All-Knowing. Should He throw them? If He throws them, does it mean he pre-destined the dices' value? Should He not be held directly responsible for the dice values at the end? Should the dice be held responsible? Both?!?!?!? If He doesn't throw them, it's because it's not worth it to, if He does, it's because He feels it is worth it overall. Well, if the dice lands on something negative, who is to blame? Does God get glory in good and bad rolls? Where do bad rolls come from? How can a dice that is made from a Perfect God ever roll negatively, even under the effects of Free Will and Randomness, since both those things come from a Perfect, All-Good God? The Calvinist I think believes that God has to get all the credit. I mean, He created the dice, the surface, and even the creatures and energy within the dice to move. The Calvinist also believes that the losing red dice did have choices, regardless of God essentially creating everything and throwing the dice the way He did, but were weaker dice to begin with so followed suit. The Calvinist gives names to red dice and blue dice that will eventually land on different values, and assumes they are pre-destined because God is sovereign over the roll and more. The Calvinist understands that thinking about God from the perspective of a Dice block is overwhelming. Both the dice and God are responsible according to some Calvinists, since a red dice cannot practically make blue dice decisions, even if they could theoretically. The Free Will Party just says it like it is. God threw some dice, but as creatures and energy, why can't we, as the energy within the dice, try to manipulate the dice's final roll with the incredibly complex energy we got from God right now like He decided to allow??? They notice that their choices have at least a quasi impact on the dice (reap what you sow), and correctly assume that God gave them Unique powers to move around, so they practically do. To now make matters more complicated also apply the following statements from God to the dice God loves the diceGod would rather the dice land with big positive numbers that have feel good effects, than with small, negative numbers, that have fiery effects Why did God make red dice when blue dice feel better and are more profitable?

[@EricSmyth4Christ]

I have a question and small rant, but I have to include it here because as another comment it. Let's say these dice are being rolled, and they aren't humans, but let's say there are actual literal dice God rolls in the back of his mind sometimes, and he does apply feeling effects to them, and creates a creature based on the roll and give them feelings based on the outcome. One dice lands on 3 and one lands on 4. 3 is good, 4 is better. Let's say he created a pony for 3 and a grown horse for 4. Would anyone complain that God was doing this? I feel like it's not a big deal. Now, what if God rolled a 1 and a 6 and created a Monster and an Angelic Creature? What if God tortured the Monster? What if the Angelic Creature questioned God for rolling dice, "creating evil" and even hurting the creation he created? What if the answer was "God liked it?" "God was applying justice" or "God was rolling dice" or something like that. What if the Monsters and Angels had free will, but the monsters always chose to hate God? Calvinism certainly seems more lax when you make God bigger and the clay smaller, but the Free Will argument is better still because of what the Bible says about man getting to experience what God has for them by applying different abilities we have as creatures, like humility and faith, which again, both sides believe come from God.

[@Hebrew42Day]

Romans is exegesis of the old testament. Any exegesis of Romans that doesn't start with Torah and Tanakh is twisting scripture.

[@iJedi_aye]

Just a note: the T in TNKh stand for Torah ("instruction"/Law). N is for Neviim ("prophets"), and Kh is for Ketuvim ("writings"/history). (The K turns into a Kh at the end of a word.)

[@shawnpullen8406]

This video has enough ads... I understand the need to have them but I'm just trying to listen to his teaching and every 5 minutes or less there's an ad or two.

[@SheepDog1974]

A KZbin trick. Start the video then fast forward 10secs before the end. Let it stop, then press play again... It will run with no ads

[@iJedi_aye]

Or just use an ad blocker.

[@jdoe97]

Dr Flowers, while you have some great insights into this passage, your entire argument that Paul is speaking of an election to service clearly falls apart in verses 23-24. The text clearly states that God has vessels of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory from both the Jews and the Gentiles. The Gentiles were not part of the Abrahamic promise. Thus at a minimum this makes your conclusions in the potter section of the text invalid as Paul is clearly talking about salvation here rather than service. As such this also calls into question that the previous section of the text is talking about an election to service unless Paul is changing topics midstream, which he sometimes does but does not appear to be the case here.

[@jonathanrocha2275]

If the remnant in Romans 11 are chosen by grace - apart from works - why wouldn’t the Gentiles be too?

[@chiamtateng1973]

Jacob however was born and to growth up as a weaker man but turn up to be a deceitful man. but he trusted God and received the salvation of Christ.

[@JuliexSteadman]

...didnt Jacob become a changed man through His trust in God though...

[@markpalfenier5851]

I get stuck on the one line in the chapter, that is "Then why does he still find fault ?" Who is the questioner referring to jews ? Gentiles? Individuals? Old testament people ? New testament people who?? It seems out of context and it is not congruent woth the rest of the chapter

[@swordmasterpublications]

19:35 Why would you think Peter was "known to be associated with Rome"?

[@lololololol8677]

Because it is a historical fact

[@swordmasterpublications]

@@lololololol8677 based on what evidence?

[@lololololol8677]

@@swordmasterpublications IRENAEUS “The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus” (Against Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]). TERTULLIAN “[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter” (Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:2 [A.D. 200]). THE LITTLE LABYRINTH “Victor . . . was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter” (The Little Labyrinth [A.D. 211], in Eusebius, Church History 5:28:3). EUSEBIUS OF CAESAREA “Paul testifies that Crescens was sent to Gaul [2 Tim. 4:10], but Linus, whom he mentions in the Second Epistle to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21] as his companion at Rome, was Peter’s successor in the episcopate of the church there, as has already been shown. Clement also, who was appointed third bishop of the church at Rome, was, as Paul testifies, his co-laborer and fellow-soldier [Phil. 4:3]” (Church History 3:4:9-10 [A.D. 312]). OPTATUS “You cannot deny that you are aware that in the city of Rome the episcopal chair was given first to Peter; the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head-that is why he is also called Cephas [‘Rock’]-of all the apostles; the one chair in which unity is maintained by all” (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [A.D. 367]). EPIPHANIUS OF SALAMIS “At Rome the first apostles and bishops were Peter and Paul, then Linus, then Cletus, then Clement, the contemporary of Peter and Paul” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 27:6 [A.D. 375]).

[@swordmasterpublications]

@@lololololol8677 so nothing in the Bible, just a bunch of uninspired sources?

[@SerpicoVendemion]

15:06-16:16 44:06 55:33

[@roylegeneral3813]

Leighton Flowers in his book "The Potters Promise" has this to say (all to deconstruct Calvinism).: " "The attribute of God’s Sovereignty is not an eternal attribute. Sovereignty means complete rule or dominion over others. For him to be in control over others there has to be others in which to control. He can’t display His power over creatures unless the creatures exist. Therefore, before creation the concept of sovereignty was not an attribute that could be used to describe God. An eternal attribute is something God possesses that is not contingent upon something else." Flowers clearly denies the eternality of God, the aseity of God, the immutability of God, and the simplicity of God, all to try to deconstruct the Calvinistic interpretation of Scripture.

[@chiamtateng1973]

Dear Dr Flowers, Romans 9 25 As He says also in Hosea: “I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved.” 26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There they shall be called sons of the living God.” (NKJV) Hosea was telling the Israelite that one day God will pass by the Jews and received the Gentiles as His own. We will touch on the sovereignty of God and men freewill in the issue of salvation. The sovereignty of God is His power to chose whom He will give His limited amount of extended love to. Both saved and unsaved will live a terrible life if God stop giving us His extended love. As explained by God in the event of Jacob wresting with the angel, Jacob was too strong for the angel to overcome. This is to tell us the power of the body of sin in our body and the influence of the devil is beyond the angels whom God had given to us. It also means God could not overcome this power of evil in our dimension. Both God and the devil can only convince us to do their bidding, but the power of influence of the devil over the natural men is stronger than God’s power of influencing men decisions because of the body of sin in our body. God can only remind us to do the right thing. The devil can stimulate of body to bring us to anger, sexually aroused, fear, bitterness and other evil feeling and adding on, by continuing to tell us all the advantages of sinning against God. God has to do more in His dimension by supernaturally take out the strongholds of the devil through working on our spirit in His dimension. But the taking out of stronghold in His dimension is an extended love. All the love God could rightly give to mankind had already given during the creation. Any more love from God is an extended loved which can only be given after mankind had loved Him. But only Christians can love Him because they have a real relationship with Him. This is why the amount of extended love of God is limited. God sovereignty in the issue of our salvation is who He will give His extended love to. God made a promise after Abraham exercised His faith in God that He will continue to give this extended to anyone who walk this path call “the just must live by faith”. God sovereign choice is to chose anyone who exercise faith in Him for more of His extended love. How then does the Bible say God chose us for salvation before the creation of the world? In the dimension of God there is no time and thus He must choose whom to save before the creation of the world. But He must also choose those who will respond positively to His calling because of His righteousness and his promise to Abraham. God continue to chose those responded positively as we live our life. But because there is no time in the dimension of God, we all had lived our life in the dimension of God. Thus, God had already given all of His extended love to all those responded positively to Him in His dimension. Therefore, right in this very moment in our dimension, God must choose who He already saved in His dimension. This is how God choose those who He will save in His dimension before the creation of the universe. As God take the devil strongholds from us, we enter into a state when our mind is clearer and are ready to be enlighten by God with the truth or the true reality. This is when we all has the freedom to respond positively or negatively to the calling of God. This is when our freewill participate in our salvation. After God had clear a part of our mind from the strongholds of the devil, we can either will our selves to accept the reality and denial ourselves off the pleasures of the world or fall back to sins of the world because we love our sins too much. This then is our freewill.

[@chiamtateng1973]

God can also chose someone who refused His calling altogether and give His extended love to him until he accept Jesus. the giving of the extended love by God is completely up to God but God had promised Abraham this path "the just must lived by faith" to Abraham. thus who so ever respond positively to the calling of God, He must give more of His extended love. God however, retained the right to give His extended love to whom he wanted even those who will never respond positively to His calling because He is the creator of the universe.

[@chiamtateng1973]

(I added more) Hosea was telling the Israelite that one day God will pass by the Jews and received the Gentiles as His own. The Jews are like Esau the first born who reserve their birth right and blessing from God the Father in heaven because of the relationship of Abraham with God. We the Gentiles is like Jacob in the narrative found in Genesis where Jacob stole the birth right and blessing from Esau. The gentiles do not deserve a higher position or priority or blessing because none of our forefathers has the kind of relationship Abraham had with God. But God the Gentiles and Abraham are of the same race of Adam and thus passed the blessing of the Jews to the Gentile. As we explained the laws given to the Jews will not lead us to heaven. But God had chosen the Jews as the light of the world. They are supposed to be the evangelists of the world. The temple in Jerusalem is meant to be the HQ of the religion Judaism if the Jews had accepted this path “the just must live by faith” and abandon the Laws as the way to salvation. The whole world would have accepted Judaism. But they killed Jesus and the blessing of “as the light of the world” has now been passed to the Gentiles. Christianity in this way will replace Judaism as the religion of God. Our HQ in Rome will replace Jerusalem. We the Christians had become the lamp of God for the world.

[@johnellis7614]

TRUE BIBLE VERSION Romans 7 TBV 1 And rather than lack conviction brother know it as an absolute fact with all your physical being. For the Ten Commandments speak to our hearts, in that this Law of God establishes dominion over a man during all the time he has the breath of life. 2 For the married woman to the living man is bound by the Law. If then dies the husband, she is set free by the Law and free of the man. 3 And so, when alive is the husband, an adulterous she would be called if she became the wife of another man. If then dies the husband, set free she is by the Law, the not to be her an adulterous with guilt having become the wife of another man. 4 And so, brothers of mine, likewise your god-ego husband has been put to death, for you are now in submission to the Law through the body of Christ. For now is the marriage of you to another, to the one from death having been brought into life. Now is the ability to produce fruit to God. 5 When therefore we were with that physical husband, what suffering, what guilt of sin, this through the Law working in the emotional part of us. For the produced result, the death of a god-ego. 6 Now also is that god-ego unable to escape from the Law, now it is lifeless, in which we were held fast. And so, serve do we in a new spirit of life, and not the old written word. 7 And so, because sin increases when the light forces darkness to give way, what then? Shall we say that the Law is guilty of sin? Not shall it be! For the guilt of sin I would not have known except through the Law. And my envious desires I would not have known unless the Law had said: “Do not desire enviously to enrich yourself upon the misery of another.” 8 Desire coupled with opportunity was then taking advantage of. For the guilt of sin brought on by that Commandment produced in me every desire for pleasure, just to kill the thought of death. Without therefore the Law, guilt of sin does not exist. 9 My god-ego then was alive without the Law. But when it came, that Commandment, the guilt of sin came to life. 10 My god-ego then died, and it was discovered by me that the effect of this Commandment was to bring to life the spirit mind by putting to death a god-ego brain. 11 For the guilt of sin, opportunity having through the Commandment, thoroughly deceived me into thinking that greater and greater pleasure would eventually but an end to the thought of death. And in this way it killed itself, as my god-ego expired in dissipation within itself. 12 And so, the absolute Law of God is holy, and this Commandment is holy, and ultimate right, and good. 13 That which brought about good for me, did it then cause my spiritual death? Not by any means, but so that sin by the bright light of the guilt of sin, through the good in me, it had the ability to accomplish emotional death. That might become by excessive acts of sin, the guilt of sin, through this Commandment. 14 Know and understand this, that the Law of God is the Holy Spirit, it truly is. I on the other hand was born without a spirit mind, as it was, traded for the knowledge of good mixed with evil. Which cursed the earth with an intelligence dictatorship, by the pretense of good being used by everyone to hide evil. 15 For what is produced by industry the people do not comprehend. Not then what is desired is this labored for, but that which is hated these are the goods, services and war materials produced. 16 If then that which is not desire this is the product of industry, an absolute conviction is established that the Law of God, in effect, and in actuality, is the essence of absolute good. 17 Now, when I decided that my god-ego had to die, no longer was I a party to what the body was trying to accomplish. For then the brain and the other organs dwelling in me were guilt of the sin. 18 For I saw clearly then that nothing that dwelled in me, that is in the physical brain of me, was of any good whatsoever. For a willing desire was within me, but the power to accomplish the good this I did not have. 19 For not then was my desire accomplished to fulfill the good, but what I did not want, for harm was what my body did. 20 If then what is not desired I thus accomplish, no longer am I performing it. For then surely the organs dwelling in me are guilty of the sin. 21 Enlightened therefore by the Law, the desire of mine was to do the good. But as for my person the evil was within. 22 And because of knowing this, I derived hope and courage then in the Law of God, according to the inner mind. 23 But I saw then another law in the brain cells of me, attempting to destroy the Law of God that was in the spirit mind of me. And so, it took captive the emotions of mine, by the law of sin with its fear of death that was in the organs of mine. 24 Wretched and being crucified by the fear of death, I was that man. Then I asked myself, “What is lacking in me, what must I do to gain salvation from this body of death? Then 25 came a realization that gratitude was all God wanted from me. For then feeling that I had been blessed with more then I deserved, I received a grateful giving heart that could do no sin. For it is by a grateful heart that a man has full faith and trust in God, and with an absolute conviction of eternal life is able overcome all fear of death. For surely, all the way, salvation is a free gift from the heavenly Father, through Jesus Christ the Lord and master of us. So then, I for an absolute with my spirit mind serve the Law of God, but by the physical brain the law of sin.

[@iJedi_aye]

Sounds pretty Gnostic, painting the physical body of a person as sinful and the nonphysical parts of a person as holy and righteous.

[@ronwolcott5839]

Thank you. Can't believe I assumed a Calvinistic perspective for many years. Your explanation makes it a no brainer. Duh.

[@rodneyhowell7398]

My question is that we are born with a sinful nature that we get from Adam when satan tempted him to sin.Lucifer and Adam were sinless until they both sinned. The sin nature that we have makes as sinners and keeps us from knowing God personally. How can that be justice when we didn't have the same opportunity to Know God in the same way Adam and Lucifer did?

[@villarrealmarta6103]

Rodney Howell are you asking why does God hold us accountable since we have been born with sin and didn’t choose that?

[@dannyreasons6070]

That is a good question, and it is answered by God in the New Covenant, He has taken away the sins of the world through the blood of Jesus, so that now we can partake of the tree of life just as Adam and have life eternal.

[@gerardosalazar9410]

But we have a personal relationship through Jesus Christ

[@iJedi_aye]

Per Romans 1, Psalm 19, and other passages, it's clear that God has revealed Himself through His creation. God further revealed Himself through "Moses and the prophets"; and everyone who will not accept them will also not accept Christ. There are tons of "missionary stories" where someone who has never heard of Jesus or the Bible sees that their cultural religion is hokey and looks for the truth, whereupon God provides more information to them and/or tells them where to find it (dream, vision, strong sensation, audible words, etc.) via missionaries who are carrying the gospel.

[@nonconformist58]

I have enjoyed this teaching but do have a Scripture reference for Hagar being a prostitute?

[@Rightlydividing-wx1xb]

Jeremiah 18 alone refutes Calvinist's view of the potter, nations can turn from WICKEDNESS or RIGHTEOUSNESS and God- the potter- will not do what HE PLANNED! Case in point- The Ninevehites-in Jonah. Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, 32:35 INSTANTIATE THAT MEN DID and CAN RUN CONTRARY TO THE WILL OF GOD! These two examples alone UTTERLY refute the 9- not 5- points/doctrines of Calvinism. God's breathed words teach His doctrines, including His plans, in PLAIN LANGUAGE from GENESIS TO REVELATION. Leighton often says one has to admit or acknowledge that they are a sinner- this is WRONG. Salvation attained under the present covenant- under GRACE, is explained in PLAIN LANGUAGE and includes, by Paul and Peter, hearing the MESSAGE ABOUT JESUS CHRIST and, believing it with FAITH, RECEIVING FORGIVENESS OF SINS and the HOLY SPIRIT thereby being justified and regenerated and all that ramifies thereafter- rescue from the domain of darkness being brought into the kingdom of Christ (Colossians 1:13); seated in the heavenlies with Christ (2:6); citizenship in heaven (Philippians 3:20),etc. All of these and the rest of what is explained to the body being found in the EPISTLES ADDRESSED TO THE BODY OF CHRIST SPECIFICALLY, not the gospels so called, Jesus'coming to Israel alone (Matthew 15:24) under the law of Moses, sending his disciples only to Israel (Matthew 10:5-6) as PROPHESIED. They reject him as PROPHESIED and he, according to God's plan, is sacrificed- buried, raised, and sends the Holy Spirit to Mankind, prior to Daniel's 70TH week of years in Daniel, including wrath to PUNISH THE WICKED ON THE EARTH AT AN APPOINTED DAY, with the present message/ gospel of grace to all that will believe as God is the Savior of all men and women, especially those who believe (1 Timothy 4:10). CALVINISM'S 9 points: 1) their DEFINITION OF SOVEREIGN 2) MITICULOUS DETERMINISM teaches that God decides EVERY SINGLE thought word and action including every SINFUL thought word and action that every person will think, say and do 3) A SECRET WILL OF GOD is created to try to REMOVE God from being guilty of sin for CAUSING EVERY SINGLE SIN EVER COMMITTED 4-8) 5-POINTS called TULIP 9) A FALSE GRACE to try explain how one can profess to be saved when they are not regenerated or elect, etc.

[@mariepybus894]

Wish my brother could hear this but he want believe it he says God doesn’t save everyone for salvation

[@iJedi_aye]

Well, God *doesn't* save "everyone"; He made salvation *available* to everyone. It's up to each individual whether to accept that offer or not.

[@kenfroehlich444]

And it wasn’t the whole nation it was only (Luke) the leadership Pharisees and Sadducees.

[@chiamtateng1973]

Romans 9 27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved. 28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.” (NKJV) Continuing from verse 26, Paul is saying Judaism will not work for God. It will take way too long to reach the number of Saints whom God had predestined to saved before the foundation of the earth. After more than one thousand years, at the time of Jesus, only very few of the Israelite accept the path “the just must live by faith” to salvation. The word “though” should read “if”. Verse 27 means, if God were to allow the Judaism to continue on for much longer so that the natural Israel be like the number of sands of the sea, still only remnant will be saved because after one thousand years the heart of the Jews was so hardening that God has to turn to the Gentiles. Verse 28 is explaining God turning to the Gentiles to cut short the time that would be required so that the numbers of saints God had predestined to save would be reached in a shorter time. This is His righteousness and mercy because the longer it takes for the predestined number to be reached the more unbelievers will ended up in hell. Taking and Giving the birth right and the blessing from the Jews to the Gentiles will cut short the required period of time for God to do His work on earth. By the time of Jesus there is no hope for God to make Judaism work so that it can be the light of the world. Romans 9 29 And as Isaiah said before: “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah.” (NKJV) The word “Sabaoth” is the word Host. We know the word Host are the angels. As I had explained the power of the devil of influencing human is far greater than the angel because of the natural man. Verse 29 “Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed” is saying unless “the Lord of host” who is God, participate directly in our salvation, we would all be totally destroy like in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah. In the stated two cities only Lot and his family were saved. But, further on, our Bible does not tell us whether, any of the Lots family members were saved. Even Lots salvation was not clearly stated in Genesis. God sent His son and directly interceded to create a path “the just must live by faith” by paying for all the sins of the whole humanity so that those whom He had given special calling could be save. The words “a seed” is also referring to our Lord, Jesus.

[@iJedi_aye]

Where do you get that God has only a certain number of people that He wants to be saved?

[@chiamtateng1973]

@@iJedi_aye by interpreting Romans 9.15 ‭Romans 9:15 NKJV‬ [15] For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” NKJV Not all will be saved.

[@iJedi_aye]

@@chiamtateng1973 And where does that say that God is talking about salvation? Paul is quoting Exodus 33:19, where Moses asked to see God's glory to confirm that God's presence would be traveling with the Israelites, and God gave His reply. The way that God showed His grace and mercy towards Israel by bringing them out of Egypt and sending His shekinah glory with them is the same way that He shows _us_ His grace and mercy by bringing to fruition the promises of the Messiah through whom He selected to be in the genealogy of Jesus. Did only _some_ of the Israelites get to leave Egypt, or were all brought out of bondage? Of course, they were all released. Did they all get to see and enter the promised land? Well, no, because of their unbelief. Does God offer salvation to only some ("the elect"), or is it offered to everyone? In many places, He says He offers it to everyone and tells everyone to accept it. Is everyone going to be saved? Well, no, because of their unbelief. (John 3:18) ------------------------- But you still didn't explain how you got that there's only a particular number that God wants to save.

[@chiamtateng1973]

@iJedi_aye you want a verse from me that explicitly says,'There is only a particular number God want to save.' ,there is no such verse, I think. It is by the implications of Romans 9. My understanding of Romans 9 is that it is mostly about individual salvation. You, however, disagree, I believe. This is where we differ. Salvation is offered to all. But only the elected by the Father will be saved. There is no time or future in the realm of the Father. This is why the Golden Chain of Salvation is all in past tense. Romans 8 '29For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.' Everything had already happened in the realm of the Father. We are just living it out. The Father already chooses whom He will save.

[@iJedi_aye]

​@@chiamtateng1973 To what exactly are they being predestined? To be saved? No, that's not what verse 29 says. It says, "To be conformed to the image of His Son." God is guaranteeing that those that are, have been, or will be saved _will be reshaped_ to look like Christ. It's predestination to _sanctification_ for those who believed (and are thereby saved), not _salvation_ per God's unknowable whim.

[@timothydavis1885]

Hagar wasnt a prostitute. How you can come to this conclusion I have no idea. However, the rest of your exposition of Romans 9 is very good

[@Gernatch]

Now you’ve gone and done it Leighton. Get ready to be reviewed on the Dividing Line...

[@austinross7437]

There is no reinterpretation here. This take is consistent with, as well as supported by much of scripture and other scholars. He has a justified interpretation of Romans in light of scripture. Fruit is being harvested in both camps, but whether their view is (more) correct is what is trying to be understood.

[@austinross7437]

I was referring to fruit from their ministries, which goes beyond their respective channels. Both see lives changed and are influential in the instruction, counselling, and encouragement of Christ-like character in those lives. Both do actually have this fruit. Again, his interpretation is consistent with not only the text of Romans, but also of John, Acts, Corinthians, of Ephesians, and more. This is important because instead of eisegetically confining your interpretation of Romans 9 to Romans 9+your presupposition, you have to interpret it in light of what the whole book says, what the author says of this topic in other books, what different authors say about this topic, how does this fit into the overall story of salvation history etc. Any good exegete would agree with that. If you don't follow that process, an interpretation is truly bound to be faulty. If you don't think this fruit exists, it is possible that you just aren't allowing the possibility to cross your mind. This isn't all he does, but this is what this channel is devoted to addressing. And it isn't attacking.

[@20july1944]

CC: Would you hate so many people so passionately and unforgivingly if you weren't a Christian?

[@20july1944]

Chris: You and Jesus both have an infinite amount of hate inside you, right?

[@bobfree1226]

Yes of course no man can come to God without His Grace, the Prodding of the Holy Spirit , with Jesus dying on the cross.ALL 3 being God share in mans Salvation. But this does Not mean that God draws an elect amount of souls only an thats that,Jesus said when I AM lifted up i will Draw ALL men unto Myself, But its Obvious, that ALL men will not come an many will reject the drawing or calling.ITS not in the exact words but in the Context of what is meant. IF only an elect amount are drawn and saved as calvanists say then Why does God command all men everywhere(conclusive) to Repent.Why would jesus plead with men to turn to HIm,if again only a certain some were already Chosen for Salvation and btw Forced to believe . This would make it all Senseless. IF God chose already an elect for Salvation, then there is no Need of evangelizing ,the Cross or even the Bible as it would all be a sham.THink about that fact there are Calvanists that dont even Evangelize for this very reason and at least there Honest.

[@marcsalyer9725]

Just like to make the point that it is not the majority or any significant number of Calvinists that teach not to evangelize. A Calvinist might argue that Free Will believers understand that they are responsible to go out with the gospel to CONVINCE others to believe and STILL most DON'T DO IT! That kind of argument doesn't put a scratch on the surface of either doctrine as long as adherents to both sides continue to evangelize as we are commanded to do.

[@johnyates7566]

Then all the reformers are wrong but u are correct ,wow

[@jonathandavid9720]

Even the reformers had disagreement

[@destroso]

Every 2 minutes I get a commercial

[@tommycapps9903]

Brother Flowers Picirilli sounds like Pick-a-really. Hope that helps a little.

[@rkirkpatrick01]

"... God often makes choices..." Is Leighton Flowers an open theist now?

[@fedot86b]

After Paul proclaimed the assurance of salvation for God's chosen people in Romans 8:30: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." Paul anticipated his opponent's objection, who might ask, is God really faithful to His chosen ones? Look at the Jewish people, aren't they God's chosen people? But why did God not bring them to salvation? In Romans 9:1-3, Paul responds, "I speak the truth in Christ-I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit-I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race." Paul answers by saying that God's promise to bring the elect to glory has not been refuted by the Jewish people. God's promise was fulfilled for the elect remnant of Israel because we see that not all of Abraham's descendants are chosen, only those from the line of Isaac and even from the line of Jacob. In Romans 9:10-12, Paul says that those whom God has chosen for salvation will come to it, regardless of anything else, and Paul himself is an example of this. In Romans 11:1-7, Paul says that God has not rejected His people, and a remnant has been saved by grace. But can we conclude that those who became obstinate did so because God did not give them enough revelation about Himself? In Romans 10:21, Paul says that Israel became obstinate despite God extending His hands to them all day long. And there is still hope that those who are obstinate can come back and be grafted in, and Paul tries to stir up zeal in them for God and save at least some of them. Romans 11:14,23 says: "in the hope of somehow arousing my own people to envy and saving some of them... And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again."

[@iJedi_aye]

Romans 9:10-13 do not refer to God's selecting people _to be saved._ He's choosing them to be a part of His means of _providing_ salvation.

[@TheEmptyeye]

a lot of double speak to say election in rom9 is about service not salvation. then say salvation is part of it but frame it again around service. ?Paul was willing to be cut off because israel wasnt living up to there job of spreading Gods word??? - doesnt make sense.

[@bobfree1226]

ill take GODS word and His sons word over all men. Paul said that no man seeks after GOD in Romans .yet tells the Athenians that GOD appoints the exact times an places that All should live so that we might SEEK and Find him or grope for him.WAIT Jamse White says a fallen man will not seek after GOD .Yet again Jesus pleads with men to turn And GOD Commands all men everywhere to REPENT. WAS not moses chosen and didnt he make some mistakes.didnt Paul also make mistakes!! i see in SCripture a GOD who gave man a free willl as evidenced by setting a tree.A GOD that appears as Jesus pleading and seeking lost men. all sorts of men. the Gospel was given Freely for ALL men to take part in. many jews rejected it an then it was given to all but from the beginning Jesus was to be a Light also to the Gentiles. GOD is a respector of no one -so why would he just choose and force a portion to heaven and send the majority to Hell forever CAUSE he knew they would be sinners. SENSELESS to me.

[@jonathandavid9720]

Agreed. I would add the the “no one seeks after God” is not a static statement on man but a dynamic transition state, since it follows with “12 All have turned away.”

[@alfigs2148]

Romans 9:4-5 >>>>> How can an Adoption to sonship --- an election to service? >>>>> How can receiving the Divine Glory be an election to service? >>>>> How can the Covenant be an election to service? >>>>> How can the promises of God be an election to service?

[@melissaschubert1653]

How can they be anything different? We are called to follow Him and then serve Him from there with our lives!

[@iJedi_aye]

- God selected the Israelites to be "His people". - God showed His own glory among them. (e.g. the pillars of flame/cloud that covered the Tabernacle) - God made His covenants with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, etc., not the rest of the world (and even some of the covenants were with particular descendants, like David). - God gave the Law through Moses, an Israelite, and reminded them over and over and over via the prophets (including Samuel and John the Baptist). - God set up the Levitical priesthood and system of sacrifices to use, well, the descendants of Levi, the third son of Jacob. - God gave most of His promises alongside His covenants, from Adam down through Abraham and Jacob to David (and even some promises to gentile nations, per some of the messages from the "major" and "minor" prophets) and eventually culminating them in Jesus of Nazareth. The ones chosen in each of these scenarios were all picked to help bring about the coming of the Messiah and Jesus' offering of Himself for the sins of the entire world (I John 2:2), thereby offering salvation from sin to *everyone* (Acts 17:30b), with the acceptance of that offer by faith as the only necessary qualification to receive it (John 3:18).

[@alfigs2148]

@@melissaschubert1653 Election to sonship will result to service not the other way around Election to receive the devine glory will result to service, again, not the other way around Leighton's mind is backward

[@alfigs2148]

@@iJedi_aye All are true but it doesn't make God's election to salvation false.. Both are true because both are in the bible

[@iJedi_aye]

@@alfigs2148 If by "election to salvation" you mean that God picks certain people to be saved and others to go to Hell, then no, the Bible doesn't teach that, unless you force a certain interpretation onto the text. God's election includes picking certain people to serve Him in particular tasks (e.g. the patriarchs to be the family through whom Christ would come, the prophets to bring His messages to various peoples, etc.) and choosing His methods of setting up and distributing salvation. He chose grace and faith instead of works, so that none of us can boast about any of our own qualities that somehow made us deserving and so that absolutely anyone who turns to God, no matter their past actions or choices, will be saved. He doesn't choose for some people to turn to Him and others to not. God doesn't make our decisions for us on our behalf.

[@Gernatch]

Am I wroioiong?

[@Dmlaney]

yes

[@chiamtateng1973]

this is what Paul meant about the clay. God has the right to use those clay (men) who trusted Him to make them into Honorable Pots and use those clay (men) who did lived a loving life but do not believe in Him to make dishonorable pots. this seen unfair and Paul was trying to explain why it is indeed very fair. by nature we would all say the man who did lived a very good life should go to heaven not those who live an evil life but trusted God. this is the unfairness Paul is trying to explain. The Just must lived by faith.

[@chiamtateng1973]

21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? "same lump of clay" means all men were going to hell. there is not one who can be consider to be righteous , even those who had exercised faith in God, their faith do not cleansed them of their sin. by right, just exercise faith in God will never redeem us from our sins. all our sins must be dealt with. it is the mercy of God which open a path for men to enter into heaven by exercise faith in Christ. without the death of Jesus on the cross no man can enter into heaven even if they had exercised a huge amount of faith in the God of Abraham. by exercise faith in God does not make us more special than other and this is why Christians and non-christian were described by Paul as the same lump of clay. our faith itself will never cleansed us of our sins and will never make us a better clay than other.

[@chrisstevens1156]

@@chiamtateng1973 same lump of clay seems like a specific ref to Israel. Not the gentiles

[@chiamtateng1973]

the answer here are the words "same lump". both the Christian and the unbeliever are in this one lump because none was able to reach heaven on their own.Even with the effort given by the Christians to God, if not by the grace of God none of the Christian would be born again. it was not our effort that qualified us for the Holy Spirit. God would not be forced by righteousness or fairness to give us the Holy Spirit after we had exercised faith in Jesus . He gave us the Holy Spirit because of His mercy. our God opened a path by His mercy and made a promise to give to the children of Abraham. we received the Holy Spirit because of the mercy that is found within the promise of God not because of our effort. this is why Paul put all Christian both Born- again and those who are not Born-again Christian and all the unbelievers in the "same lump" of clay.

[@auggiebendoggy]

1.27.40 - No Pharoah would object, why am I being blamed if God makes me disobey. Whey do libertarians always twist this? Pharoah was rebellions because God raised him up for this purpose. Seems clear to me. I agree Calvinists aren't right about this chapter but they have that part right.

[@jonathandavid9720]

Pharaoh already made the choice to disobey,and hardened his heart, then God hardened it more.

[@auggiebendoggy]

@@jonathandavid9720 God told Moses before he sent him, he (God) would harden him so that he won't obey his command (let them go). Pharao is doing so because God hardened him which is Paul's point Rom 9. That is why Paul anticipates the objection. Paul's point is to show part of Israel is in unbelief because God has a plan and he hardened them. That is what Calvinists say and I believe they're fully correct about that point.

[@contemplate-Matt.G]

Yes, Dr. Flowers...."Israel" means "prince of God". However, this term ultimately does not portray ethnic, national Israel. Jesus is the "prince" of God. Think about that because there is a whole lot of implications with that fact. Anyone who knows what this means will unlock the key to Romans 9

[@iJedi_aye]

"Prince" didn't always used to mean just the "son of a king"; it used to include any sort of political ruler. This is why the KJV uses "princes" throughout to refer to rulers. It's also how Machiavelli meant the word when he chose _The Prince_ for his book's title.

[@halimak625]

Leighton, you handsome dude...😎

[@sp4gsus]

kukak bear no one ever said the believers heart prior to salvation is good and if they did they are simply wrong. That’s what calvinists read into our position and use it to attack us even though it is never stated by any of us! On the contrary, the heart is sick, the heart is deceitfully wicked and every traditionalist believes that...in agreement with Calvinists! Here is the key brother and learn it from scripture, it could not be stated any clearer: It does not take a good heart to turn to God in repentance and be saved. Where does it say that you ask? It’s implied all over the Bible but stated clearly in Isaiah 55, scriptures you know well but refuse to receive: LET THE WICKED forsake his way and the UNRIGHTEOUS their thoughts and RETURN to the Lord that he might have mercy on them, and to our God for he will ABUNDANTLY PARDON. I capitalized the words Calvinist glasses are unable to see. May you repent of this wicked heresy called Calvinism and realize ANY MAN can be saved by the abundant grace of God through the atonement provided to every man by the death of his son Jesus who is praised forever amen. What leighton looks like means nothing but what he brings to the table is the correct view of soteriology and it’s not because God zapped him so he can see it, no it’s because he studies Gods word prayerfully...the scriptures which are able to make a man wise unto salvation. Once someone’s heart is pierced by the truth of the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation and turns to God in true repentance THEN my friend God seals him with the Holy Spirit and begins a good work in his heart conforming it to become like his own. Satan has cleverly deceived you as he did leighton and myself but the mighty word of God is victorious and overcomes any incorrect doctrine.

[@20july1944]

Kuck: Do you love the people in hell?

[@Hebrew42Day]

halima k he's married.

[@halimak625]

Elwood M. Buel i know, so is it prohibited to pay him a compliment?