Struggling With Romans 9 & Calvinism? WATCH THIS! | Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101 | Theology

[@ThroughTheKJVBibleInOneYear]

Can we just take a moment to appreciate that Leighton is one of the few people on KZbin who considers a 20 minute video to be a "short". And for him, that's actually correct. 😂

[@Call_Upon_YAH]

*These words are not mine.* These are the words the Ruach HaKodesh (YAHUAH's Set-Apart Spirit) uttered through me when I prayed to YAHUAH; asking him what *he wants* me to say, knowing the truth. Blessed are they who keep YAHUAH's word: "Know that YAHUAH is the name of the Most High and YAHUsha is the name of The Son. Come out of her, my people, who have fallen to the deceit of Constantine. Who know not my name and say they love me. I have made myself known. I have heard you and I am here. There are many who are yours to be saved. I am he who knows all that you are. Come to me, here are they who are mine. Make haste to come, here are we. Give in to them who speak of me, they are yours. I am here for you. Know that all is for them, here are we. Give not to them that are against me. I am he who sees all you do. Come to me out of her, all are here for me. Do what I say. Out of her, come. All are here." Exodus 3:13-15 KJV 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. John 5:43 KJV 43 *I am come in my Father's name,* and ye receive me not: *if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.* 2 Corinthians 6:17 KJV 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and *touch not the unclean thing;* *and I will receive you.* Isaiah 52:6-7 KJV 6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I. 7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! 2 Corinthians 6:1-2 KJV 1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) Romans 10:1-3 KJV 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Romans 10:13-17 KJV 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 *How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?* 15 *And how shall they preach, except they be sent?* as it is written, *How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!* 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. *For Esaias saith,* Lord, *who hath believed our report?* 17 *So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.* Nahum 1:7 KJV 7 The Lord is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and *he knoweth them that trust in him.* Hebrews 3:15 KJV 15 *While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.* Isaiah 52:11 KJV 11 *Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing;* go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the Lord. John 14:15 KJV 15 *If ye love me, keep my commandments.*

[@marcfischer114]

For me it's way too short! I need at least one hour to get my brain stimulated!

[@LandmarkBaptists]

Excellent point! A much needed moment of levity. 🙂

[@recoveringknowitall1534]

So.. rather than comment on the content of video, you make a smug, adhom comment that you obviously think was very clever and "thoughtful". Amazing people today.

[@markdeduke606]

The question isn’t about Leighton🙄

[@ryanhoward8694]

We’ve been working through Exodus with my teens on Sunday mornings. We’ve come to the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart, and I’m using that as an opportunity to discuss Romans 9-11 thoroughly from the Provisionist perspective. 😃 Your videos and “The Potter’s Promise” have helped me IMMENSELY in understanding that passage. Thank you!

[@joshbeard9809]

so you come to scripture teaching with your biases then? I hope those students have others who given them other perspectives so they can learn to do exegesis, discern, and think critically. Thus, come to their own conclusions rather than your preconceived beliefs. A good teacher will teach with a variety of views or perspectives. Otherwise you are only teaching them what you rather than what scripture is telling them. God bless!

[@ryanhoward8694]

@@joshbeard9809 Is that how Calvinists teach? Do Calvinists present all different viewpoints fairly and let people choose? I don’t see that happening hardly ever. Further, where does that approach end? Should we present openly heretical viewpoints when teaching Scripture? Should we equally present Arian, Modalist, Adoptionist, etc., views of the nature of God alongside Trinitarianism? No, sir. I don’t accept your foundational premise. I will teach what I firmly believe the Bible teaches like any good Bible teacher should while also facilitating discussion of different theological opinions.

[@joshbeard9809]

@@ryanhoward8694 First, that isn't my point. Who cares what Calvinist, Molinist, Arminianist, or anyone else teaches. It is what good teaches teach. Second, yes we should teach all different views. Even heretical and other possibly incorrect beliefs or views. If you are confident in what you believe this is what you will do. You will present your views but also other views. This is part of critical thinking. Otherwise, presenting only your views you are influencing your views and beliefs on others and possibly not open for scrutiny or debate. Third, you are not teaching what the bible teaches. You are teaching from your biases, assumptions, and prejudices. We all have them and is something at least 99% of humans do but just don't realize it.

[@ryanhoward8694]

@@joshbeard9809 Ah, yes. I remember when Jesus, the apostles, and the church fathers said, “Teach heretical views as equally valid options.” Can you help me remember where they said this? I’m having trouble finding it. Also, Calvinism, Arminianism, and Molinism aren’t heresies, just to be clear. You’re making massive unwarranted assumptions, one of which is that, in teaching the Bible, I am presenting my views without walking through alternatives and debunking them while demonstrating critical thinking skills and teaching them. Yeah, I do that. You seem to have the notion that one can’t hold to and teach a certain viewpoint while simultaneously demonstrating and teaching critical thinking. That’s just patently false. Those are not mutually exclusive options. (I would note that in this very conversation you are taking a stance and dogmatically asserting it without presenting other options. If your claims are true, why are you trying to persuade me of your viewpoint? Why not just lay out the options and let me choose for myself? You are violating your own claims.) Yes, we all have biases…so what? Where does the observation that we have biases get us? That doesn’t invalidate any of my views unless you can demonstrate that my biases have led me to incorrect conclusions. You have biases, too. Does that make your views invalid?

[@joshbeard9809]

@@ryanhoward8694 You are missing my point. I never said teach heretical views as truth. I said those who are confident in what they believe will teach not just from their biases, prejudices, and what they believe. They will teach about other views or beliefs they disagree with. This is critical thinking 101. It is what empowers people to think for themselves rather than come to your conclusions or someone else's conclusions. It is also important to point out. I am not just talking about views on scripture. I am talking about anything some teaches. I have read books and been in classes where the write or teacher did this and loved it. I hate when writes or teaches only teach their views. I eventually either only believe what they believe or completely reject what they say. Yet, when multiple views are presented I remain more open-minded and less opinionated and come to a more secured view on the topic where I decide what I believe and what I don't. I did this with Soteriology and as a result more confident in what I believe. Instead of being biased towards one. I know that Scripture supports a combination of all three major views and nothing else. For example having a will to make choices (God has a will so of course we do not just one that is autonomous like Him) and predestination are both true. Scripture supports both. How many times when we look back on our lives we can see God's hands at work in our life through the people and circumstances He placed us in. Even when people come to Christ. God is using our choices and His knowledge of future events (predestination) to bring this about. This is what is so amazing about God and His sovereignty.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

Anytime you use one chapter to interpret the whole Bible instead of using the whole Bible to interpret a single chapter, you have a problem.

[@littygamer9008]

Isn't that what arminianists do?? Also there's more than just one chapter

[@littygamer9008]

He who began a greater work in you shall bring it to the day of Jesus Christ our Lord... Phil. 1:6 and also in Ezekiel 37:1-10 (I think) God breathing life into DEAD dry bones (key word being dead) when a person is dead they literally can't do a thing, not even breathe... And we were dead in our sins until Jesus gave us faith... Faith is a gift... Not something you work to get.. also in Romans 9 it says God will show mercy on whom he shows mercy, therefore, it doesn't depend human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. And all the different verses of God's elect and predestination.... What verses do Armenians have?

[@bobbyadkins6983]

@@littygamer9008 What verses do Armenians have? By that, you mean non-Calvinists, right? We have the whole Bible. We have verses that teaches God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. And that we are to love one another.

[@littygamer9008]

@@bobbyadkins6983 okay.... What's your point

[@bobbyadkins6983]

@@littygamer9008 Humble yourself. Where's the love?

[@solochristo491]

Pastor Mitchell is great! He has such a firm grasp on Romans 9. He just did a multi-part series on his channel refuting Calvinism that I highly recommend.

[@DR-xr7gv]

What is his channel? Scott Mitchell’s

[@solochristo491]

@@DR-xr7gv It's called The Bible Made Clear.

[@Call_Upon_YAH]

*These words are not mine.* These are the words the Ruach HaKodesh (YAHUAH's Set-Apart Spirit) uttered through me when I prayed to YAHUAH; asking him what *he wants* me to say, knowing the truth. He with ears, hear: "Know that YAHUAH is the name of the Most High and YAHUsha is the name of The Son. Come out of her, my people, who have fallen to the deceit of Constantine. Who know not my name and say they love me. I have made myself known. I have heard you and I am here. There are many who are yours to be saved. I am he who knows all that you are. Come to me, here are they who are mine. Make haste to come, here are we. Give in to them who speak of me, they are yours. I am here for you. Know that all is for them, here are we. Give not to them that are against me. I am he who sees all you do. Come to me out of her, all are here for me. Do what I say. Out of her, come. All are here." Exodus 3:13-15 KJV 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. John 5:43 KJV 43 *I am come in my Father's name,* and ye receive me not: *if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.* 2 Corinthians 6:17 KJV 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and *touch not the unclean thing;* *and I will receive you.* Isaiah 52:6-7 KJV 6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I. 7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! 2 Corinthians 6:1-2 KJV 1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) Romans 10:1-3 KJV 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Romans 10:13-17 KJV 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 *How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?* 15 *And how shall they preach, except they be sent?* as it is written, *How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!* 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. *For Esaias saith,* Lord, *who hath believed our report?* 17 *So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.* Nahum 1:7 KJV 7 The Lord is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and *he knoweth them that trust in him.* Hebrews 3:15 KJV 15 *While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.* Isaiah 52:11 KJV 11 *Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing;* go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the Lord. John 14:15 KJV 15 *If ye love me, keep my commandments.*

[@Provision463]

Leighton, I am a lifelong Calvinist. Well, just my adult life. I was a 2-Point Calvinist…Total Depravity and Perseverance of the Saints. Toward the end of Seminary I started listening to Sproul. Then I reluctantly filled in the UI, but was never comfortable with Limited Atonement so I guess that made me a 4-Point Calvinist…which Sproul affectionately called “a confused Arminian.” You haven’t brought me out of Calvinism yet, but you’re making progress. Can you point me to good scholars that show in great and compelling detail the Corporate Election view of Election over against the typical Individual Election approach in Romans 9-11? I stumbled (on KZbin) upon Dr. Jerry Walls and his student Paul Sloan. Paul had plans of attending an English college to work on his PhD. I got the sense that both Sloan and Walls would eventually be liberals before long. I hope I am wrong. I would also be helpful to have good scholars who likewise address the other Calvinist passages such as Ephesians, John, etc. Looking forward to your reply.

[@redreeler4905]

If mixing the Bible and making it fit a narrative is correct then Calvinism is right, but I know it isn't for every Calvinist I know takes words like whosoever in John 3, and Romans 10 KJV Bible and say it doesn't really mean whosoever like the other 105 times it's used in the New Testament how disgusting!!! Calvinist need to get a real grasp on Revelation 22:18-19 without adding or subtracting!!!

[@jeffpaton9667]

Elect in the Son, by Robert Shank is a great book on the issue. I was not getting anything out of it for the first two chapters and then the light went off. I started over and the chapters made a lot more sense to me. Corporate Election has been around a long time, but few works dedicated to exhausting the issue are available that I know of.

[@ulisesmachado3780]

@@redreeler4905 The problem you have is the most common problem that the majority of Christians have nowadays. It’s a sin trying to live your faith out through a third person. There’s no such a thing called “Scholars” in the Bible that have lead anybody to Christ. Look at Paul, who was instructed by Gamaliel the best scholar during his time. Did he lead him to Jesus? NO. The New Covenant was never meant for that The New Covenant grants us direct access to the OWNER Of THE BUSINESS. When you read Acts 17:10-12; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Isaiah 54:13; John 6:45; John 14:26-27; John 16:13-15; 1 John 2:27;The Chapters 8,9 &10 of the book of Hebrews you understand that. You don’t need Augustin of Hippo, you don’t need Calvin YOU NEED A TRUE RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. The Lord has provided everything we need to live the Faith as designed by Him. 2 Peter 1:3-15.

[@ContatoDigital-oq8ho]

Steve Gregg

[@mikelyons2831]

Great work Brothers. To those refuting Calvinism, regarding Romans 9: Be sure to show'm Paul's conclusions in 9:30-10:4. Then 10:8-13 (how to be saved, all can be saved) 10:16 & 19. Then 11:23 (unbelieving Israel can be grafted back in by believing). 11:32! 12:3 (measure of faith dealt to all, see Eph 4:7-8 too) 16:26 (all nations). Like the Gensu knives commercial "But wait, there's more!" Take'm back to the purpose of the letter/Epistle & that it was/is meant to be read in it's entirety. Note chptr 9 precursors: 1:16-17. 2:24. 3:9, 29-30. 4:9. 5:18. 6:14. & That the adoption is not salvation but 8:23 (remember, all have sinned AND fallen short of the glory of God... these mortal bodies can't withstand the presence of God or live eternally. At least show'm these, it only takes 5 minutes.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

You've done a great job, picking the key passages in Romans to take them to. Excellent work! Outside of Romans I like to add Galatians 4, and Eph 1:11, 2:11-16, and 3:6.

[@dalewier9735]

Thank you, I am preaching thru Romans now and you have saved me hours of study time, time that can be better used praying for this flock that is so hungry. Blessings

[@fzr1000981]

"No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him". There are priorities to the will of God. Divine Election is irrefutable doctrine

[@mikelyons2831]

@@fzr1000981 "Divine Election" was an extra biblical invention by Augustine to try & best Pelagius...then picked up by Calvin. All are drawn (John 1:9, 1:29, 3:16-18, 12:32, 12:47, 16:11) besides Isaiah 45:22, Matthew 11:28, Luke 9:56 (vs 55 if using ESV), Acts 17:30-31, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19, Romans 5:18, 10:11-13, 11:32, 1 Timothy 2:3-6, Titus 2:11, Hebrews 2:9, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, Revelation 22:17. You know who is prevented forbidden restricted from calling upon Jesus for salvation in those passages... answer, no one. God only redeeming a pre-selected elect few would give 👿 more souls after his hoodwink-bamboozle in the Garden. Why do you think former Calvinist Leighton has a dedicated YT channel refuting Calvinism? Because it's not biblical.

[@fzr1000981]

@mikelyons2831 I don't think any of you people are in the faith and you're all humanistic phony "Christians" bent on your little invented war. I could go through every passage you cited and easily dismantle it. What games do you play with Ephesians 1...before the foundation of the world, God foreknew...nothing needs to be added to that...there are priorities to the will of God, #1 being His own glory, or no one would be lost. You're just wrong and you will be proven wrong. There are so many more important things for the Church to be concerned with, such as personal holiness

[@lindsaysimplified]

I am actually in the process of leaving Reformed Calvinism and this keeps coming up when people challenge me. I’m not sure who I am without Reformed Theology. I left the prosperity gospel for Calvinism almost 12 years ago, and so now leaving Calvinism, I almost feel lost. 😅 Your videos have been so helpful.

[@brucejane7395]

Study the Bible without a theology. All theologies want scripture read thru that prism. Read the theology thru the prism of scripture. They all are man made, and contain truth and error. The wheat and tares. The tares are in all theology. The log and the specks: I can see the error in your theology, but not the ones in mine.

[@goyonman9655]

​@@brucejane7395 Paul was a theologian So was Peter And John

[@brucejane7395]

@@goyonman9655 Paul was a student of the scriptures under Gamaliel. He was a Pharisee, one who studied the scriptures. Peter and John were fishermen. John wrote an eyewitness account. Mark wrote Peter’s eye witness account. They both wrote letters which were Pastoral in content and not theological arguments as Paul did.

[@goyonman9655]

@@brucejane7395 They are clearly theologians Read the Bible. They are doing Theology there

[@Gablesman888]

Just considering from what you have said that by studying Calvinism (which is in no way a religion or denomination) you for the first time in your Christian walk really know why you believe what you believe. In other words, you for the first time realize there is more to your salvation than some prayer you prayed in VBS or the time you may have "walked an aisle". You realize that maybe, just maybe, you were chosen before time began to spend eternity with Christ. You did not choose Christ like you would choose which cola to drink. God chose you first. Think about that. God bless you in whatever you do.

[@elteacher6410]

Saddest part about this young woman: Calvinists will not accept that calvinism wrecked her faith; they will say it was The Lord God Himself who wrecked her faith.

[@JD10503]

Her faith was wrecked because it was never given to her in the first place. The elect will remain in Him to the end, and the reprobate will not, no matter if they think they are elect or not.

[@jjphank]

And Paul didn’t understand Calvinism when he wrote Romans nine because he says he wishes he could be cut off for the sake of his people, Israel; this means he didn’t understand predestination in the Calvinistic sense! God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross!

[@Kenuel-Chavis]

@@TimothyBlevins1127 Agreed. It's absolute nonsense.

[@HappyPenguin75034]

And when someone blames someone else for leaving the Church - you applaud it as true. 😂

[@odstzero22]

​@JD10503 i think you should be very careful making statements like that because we know that causing others to stumble is a very serious offense. Making assumptions about one's faith is exactly what other "christians" did to job.

[@Drspeiser]

What timing! I've been reading through Romans 9 yesterday and today

[@godsstruggler8783]

When I first read Romans as a two month old Christian, I said to God (around Chapter 9) something like: "I really don't understand this. I know that the Bible is true, so will just have to wait for an explanation some day." I asked my then pastor and he couldn't offer an explanation. As the years passed by I eventually found myself in a heavily Calvinistic fellowship. They often appealed to mystery when stuck. Yet I remembered my words to God and how I trusted Him to reveal that which I need to know when I need to know it (maybe not until eternity, even). 22 years later and Romans 9 now actually exposes the error of Calvin. What an extraordinary irony.

[@johnknight3529]

I believe his error, was the same error those first humans in the Garden made. (And most likely the error Satan made). They underestimated God. Because they didn't realize they have no way to rightly estimate Him.

[@nikao7751]

​@jasonr9678so are you trying to say it's only for the Thessalonians? C'mon man, don't be so myopic.

[@patrickteo9444]

I do not think so🙏

[@nikao7751]

@jasonr9678 he chose all who would choose. If you're a Calvinist, you can never claim to know that you have been chosen, like an arminian, you will never know till you get there, and that's just sad.

[@nikao7751]

@jasonr9678 so you made a choice to respond, or are you a robot? Which I could totally believe that you are a robot, especially if you hold to Calvinism.

[@donalddandrea9893]

Clarity is our best friend. As always, thank you for you love of Bible Truth.

[@tonygardiner5585]

what exactly was explain, can you help me?

[@KevC1111]

This is the precise reason why calvinism is so abhorrent and dangerous. I'm both saddened and angered by this.

[@dw6528]

DW: Its interesting to watch how Calvinists typically respond to the underlying doctrine - and the percentage of Calvinists who work very hard to evade the aspects of divine evil within it. In my many dialogs with Calvinists over the years - when I mention the fact that Calvin's god creates the vast majority of humans throughout history - specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire - for his good pleasure - I would say 99% of Calvinists will insist that is not what Calvinism teaches. Well - of course - it is not what Calvinist pastors and teachers are going to present to their congregations - because they know those congregations would dwindle down into a tiny handful of hard-core sadistic personalities. And that is not the kind of congregation any Calvinist pastor wants to have. Consequently - Calvinist pastors (John MacArthur, and John Piper for example) present a highly "Arminianized" version of Calvinism to their congregations.

[@nervestriker5798]

🗨 Kev 🗨 You seem to be an authority on this topic. You were the 5th to comment and yet more agree with you than all of the other comments placed so far (according to the likes). It is for this reason I thought I'd engage Baptists. No, I'm not Calvinist, but a Seventh-day Adventist. There you have it... transparency from the outset. I'm well aware of the feud between Baptists and Calvinists since Calvinists are trying their same tricks with SDA. I had much interaction with them, mostly in KZbin comments since I'm not on social media (although considering starting a Twitter account). My question to you is: What would your response be If I accuse Baptists that: 1) they're as unlikely to debate SDA as Calvinists are accused of being unwilling to debate Baptists 2) Baptists are as much responsible for souls becoming unbelievers as Calvinists are. Yes, #2 is a serious charge and shouldn't be taken lightly. However, please consider the following: When we consider Luke 18:8 vs Rev 14:12 (KJV), whose faith is being questioned and whose faith is being endorsed by JESUS HIMSELF⁉️ In OT God made a big deal about faith as much as Jesus makes a big deal of faith in NT. Statements such as: 1) the just shall live by faith 2) without faith it is impossible to please God -- Hebr 11:6 Since it wouldn't make sense for me to give a biblical definition for "just" and "please", because I would just be accused of: 1) eisegesis 2) being out of context, 3) .... .... .... 999...), I have no choice but to depend on the "father of American education", Noah Webster. I ask that you check the definitions for the abovementioned two words and let me know if they're consistent with, or support Revelation 14:12. Also a reminder that Jesus said Elijah shall come again and restore ALL THINGS. We know this cannot refer to John the Baptist, since he didn't restore anything. Notice also that to restore, doesn't mean to change, but to restore to its originality. So if Elijah shall come again BEFORE the second coming (Malachi 4), what is he going to restore if ALL THINGS doesn't include: 1) the Sabbath 2) dietary laws 3) to be announced (I wanna deal with this one separately) I would be grateful if my questions can be addressed. Thank you. Ps: Are you Kevin Thompson from Beyond The Fundamentals?

[@KevC1111]

@@nervestriker5798 I am neither an "authority" nor am I Kevin Thompson.

[@dw6528]

@@nervestriker5798 DW: Hello. I can provide a fair amount of info concerning Calvinism - what the underlying doctrine is - and why Calvinism is a belief system that is in conflict with itself. But I am not familiar enough with the Baptist organization or group to be able to address any questions concerning them. Blessings!

[@nervestriker5798]

🗨 DW 🗨 Thank you for your message. May I ask what is your spiritual background our affiliation? I'm a Seventh-day Adventist.

[@Aquines]

Great insight by Scott into the reading of Romans 9 and how it points back to OT passages . Thanks Leighton for you guest watching from Dublin Ireland

[@nikao7751]

Way to bring it on home there at the end Mr Flowers, the simplicity that even a child can understand. ‭Luke‬ ‭18:17‬ ‭KJV‬ [17] Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

[@midnighthymn]

This right here is for anyone who says that there aren’t major implications as to how we interpret the Bible. This woman went on the biggest podcast in the world and basically gave those who reject God more ammunition for doing so because of her (correct) noticing of the issues that result from the Calvinist interpretations of Romans 9 🫣

[@nikao7751]

Yep but we're all still responsible for what we hear and see. Me and my brother were presented with this interpretation, I called BS, he chose to run with it and say he's one of the bad ones God created, because he loved his sin and darkness more than light, not really because he thought God created him to be bad, in the end it's just another excuse to live a lie, and remain wilfully ignorant.

[@jjphank]

God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinists it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross!

[@GaryMeissner-h1f]

I have no trouble with Calvinism. The last 4 years of Calvinist teaching , has been such a blessing. God saved me in 78.The fruit is abundant. So thankful God lead me to a Calvanist, reformed Church. The 🌷 just makes sense. My joy has no limits. You guys sound frustrated. Keep praying God will lead you into all truth. 🙏

[@a.k.7840]

Excellent points by Scott Mitchell concerning logic and how we're designed to think and understand things. 👍

[@amapola53]

I really thank God for Dr. Flowers. I could not be swayed by Calvinistic "logic," i.e., you must be regenerated first before you can believe! That never sat well with me but listening to Soteriology has helped me understand why my spirit could not accept TULIP. Thank your clearing up all this for me. I could only rely on the verses that faith comes by hearing from God's Word and not by election. And that we first hear the gospel and if we believe it, then we are reborn! Sealed by God's Spirit. 🙏🙏🙏

[@AslanRising]

Where does Gods word teach that the unregenerate can possess and exercise saving faith?

[@shredhed572]

The question is, why are you in opposition? This person is doing your god's will under your system. Why are you opposing god?

[@AslanRising]

@@shredhed572 are you replying to me?

[@AslanRising]

I'm gonna assume you are replying to me. First, there is no my god and your god, there is only the God. Second, I asked a simple, reasonable question. I did not say what I believe the Bible teaches about this. Third, your question reflects you do not understand Calvinism in the least. I encourage you to learn more before you accept or reject something.

[@MichaelVorster-zz1je]

Thanku gentlemen,I'm a new Christian,so for clearing this contentious matter,I'm hugely grateful Shalom Jesus Amen❤❤❤

[@grizz4489]

Wow, i wonder how many others there are out there and through out history like this young lady. She explained herself well, without any notes at all. Its really rather sad. Keep it up Dr. Flowers !

[@Turboilmental]

This is why we must look at ALL of scripture, not just isolated text. Romans 9 must be read with Jeremiah 18:4 for complete context and reference. Christ and the Apostles always quoted Old Testament as their reference and we must do the same to have the complete picture or difficult passages. Jeremiah 18:4 “And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.” The Potter didn’t cause the spoiling, it spoiled of its own volition and he used it for a new purpose. A vessel for wrath. So the clay was intended for honorable purpose but after spoiling it was reworked.

[@nikao7751]

Could not the vessel still of it's own volition not go along with the wrath?

[@jalapeno.tabasco]

since when do you just get to jump out of the context of the and pick whatever old testament passage you wanna use as your lens? you aren't Christ or the apostles.... keep reading 5 Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, 6 “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.

[@jalapeno.tabasco]

"The Potter didn’t cause the spoiling, it spoiled of its own volition and he used it for a new purpose. A vessel for wrath. So the clay was intended for honorable purpose but after spoiling it was reworked." yeah, Adam caused the spoiling... and you just made up your own interpretation.... i could do this with literally anything passage

[@dalewier9735]

Wow, as a believer of 35 years and pastor of more than 15, i am so impressed with this young lady's sincerity, candor, and knowledge of scripture. Who among us seeks with this level of commitment. The calvanist will say that she had the answer but refused to accept it. what she said was she did not find/ was not given an answer to Romans 9 that was not evil, and i agree. I was lead out of calvanism after attending seminary because calvanism does not represent the nature of the Lord God that is revealed by Him in scripture. Thank L.F. without you i would be without resources to confront what has become "cultish" behavior by the Southern Baptist and Missionary Baptist seminaries and mission boards.

[@AVB2-LST1154]

Yeah, I used to believe that God was a sweet kindly old grandfatherly type seated in heaven stroking his beard and petting a kitten sitting in His lap looking down from heaven smiling on us sinners, then I read Revelation. Revelation 8:10 “the third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from the sky,...and it made one-third of the water bitter, and MANY PEOPLE DIED from drinking the bitter water.” Revelation 9:3-4-5 “Then locusts came from the smoke and descended on the earth, and they were given power to sting like scorpions. They were told not to harm the grass or plants or trees, but only the people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were told not to kill them but to TORTURE them for five months with pain like the pain of a scorpion sting.” Revelation 9:18 “One-third of all the people on earth were KILLED by these three plagues-by the fire and smoke and burning sulfur that came from the mouths of the horses.” Revelation 13:10 “Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison. Anyone destined to die by the sword.” Revelation 14:9-10-11 ““Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand must drink the wine of God’s ANGER. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be TORMENTED with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have NO RELIEF day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.” Revelation 14:19-20 “So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and loaded the grapes into the great wine press of God’s wrath. The grapes were trampled in the wine press outside the city, and BLOOD FLOWED from the wine press in a stream about 180 MILES long and as high as a horse’s bridle.” (There is about 1.5 gallons of blood in an adult human being.) Revelation 16:21 “There was a terrible hailstorm, and hailstones weighing as much as seventy-five pounds fell from the sky onto the people below. They cursed God because of the terrible plague of the hailstorm.” Revelation 20:15 “And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.” Revelation 21:8 “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars-their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

[@nathanpoole9661]

Thankful for Leightons content. Been very eye opening to say the least❤

[@davidward5225]

Upon first reading Romans 9-11 almost 50 years ago, with no one telling what it meant, it was clear to me that the passage is about Israel and I still believe that.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

You're right. Paul's overarching point is that, where the Jews have always taught God only chose them and did not choose (and therefore hates) the Gentiles, this was never true. God loves all people. In Romans 8 Paul is describing the blessings that the justification of the Gentiles being brought back into the family of God has delivered. He's describing the idea that the Gentiles now have the same blessings that the Jews have always said that they themselves had, so that all people are equally blessed. And he knows that whenever he's said this part of his message in the synagogues throughout his travels, that this was the point where the Jews lost their minds and tried to stone him. So now, in chapter 9, he turns to remembering all of their hateful allegations and objections, and he recounts for us all his winning rebuttals. So yes, his focus now absolutely becomes Israel.

[@betharnold2125]

I’ve just read Romans 9 two times yesterday and came up with the same interpretation as is taught here. I am so glad I have never been taught Calvinism. How heartbreaking that those glasses have been put on people.

[@itzakehrenberg3449]

Calvinism: "About 99% of the human population will burn in Hell for all eternity and there is nothing they can do about it". That's "good news"! Lol!!!

[@thinkerj]

The perverse part of that is the belief that God will let anyone burn in hell for all eternity.

[@recoveringknowitall1534]

Please understand this... everyone listening to this video and considering the issue of Calvinism. There is no difference in Calvinism and what is called "hypercalvinism". They are the same. Hyper Calvinists are just more honest with what they believe and why. Those that say they arent "hyper calvinist", when pushed to the logical consequence of their beliefs, are either honest and admit to their double election, or dishonest and try to tell you they arent like "those" hyper Calvinists. There is no difference other than degrees of honesty and self awareness.

[@TheMidnightModder]

It's been almost 2 years since I've left Calvinism... I'm still struggling with the beliefs it gave me...

[@oterosocram25]

It is a struggle indeed. Never been a Calvinist, I knew very little about it until I started to question certain views in salvation from the calvinistic view until I got to Leighton’s book the potters promise. I now visit a reform church and oh boy, it is hard to confronting people in love 😮‍💨

[@TheMidnightModder]

@@oterosocram25 Yeah... But I will say, as a former Calvinist, you're truly doing the Lord's work going to a "reformed" church and teaching about the truth of God's word. I don't suppose Calvinism breaks everybody, but to whom it does, it REALLY breaks them. And a lot of the stories I've heard from people who left the church, they were surrounded by pre-destination doctrine.

[@joshgaston7839]

It's like leven in the dough. It's so hard to get out once it's in there and subconsciously, you'll catch yourself reiterating what they teach.

[@jalapeno.tabasco]

@@TheMidnightModder the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing...

[@TheMidnightModder]

@@jalapeno.tabasco Is that some sort of argument for Calvinism?

[@witch_painting_memory]

I know it's unlikely, but if you ever managed to get on the Joe Rogan podcast to talk about that passage and other difficult passages, that would be absolutely amazing.

[@AlexanderosD]

I like what one of your guests said once, "Romans goes past chapter 9..." And Leighton I want to thank you so much for showing me the rabbit past the duck in Romans 9. I never had a Calvinist philosophy, but I still wrestled with that specific mention being other than specific individual election, until I heard your hermeneutics and exegesis on it and thought "that's it! That's what I've been trying to articulate!" Funny, we talk about context but Calvinists don't put chapter 9 in context with the other chapters.

[@jalapeno.tabasco]

itching ears...

[@marlondelrosario635]

Its so sad how calvinism has poisoned a beautiful verse because of the lens. Shes confuse, may God call her back to His grace.

[@BonnieDavis-tu7jg]

John lennox 's book "determined to believe?" is very helpful

[@howard4tex]

We're saved by God's grace, alone, through our faith in Christ, alone.

[@nicholastrudeau7581]

You mentioned people walking away from the faith due to a calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9, and a young woman who has her own KZbin channel came to mind for me. Her name is Kristi Burke. I can say that with such confidence because she stated that it was a young man that she was dating that was a calvinist that basically jump-started her deconstruction. And she mentioned Romans 9 and one of the Bible passages that letter to her deconversion.

[@ScottMelton-k5c]

Love God. Love Jesus. Love others. It’s very simple. Let God , in his perfection, do the rest. We won’t understand everything until we are with him.

[@officialDavidRees]

She really doesn't have a problem per se, her feelings are correct. The calvinistic interpretation of Romans 9 feels evil to her because it is. I pray she can make the connection between what she feels and what scripture is actually telling us about God choosing Israel. I praise God for all of those that are coming out of calvinism and yet remain in-Christ.

[@patrickteo9444]

It is not the interpretation of the Calvin reform church that shocked the young lady, it was the truth story of God walking with the Jewish nation shocked her! The problem of today, we tend to think our God is ❤️ n tend brush away His justice n wrath. ‘The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom’ iaiash 55:7-9 is a good start to surrender to! Unless we can totally embrace the divine sovereignty of God expressed in the Bible as it is, we will not make good believers of Christ! Reform theological interpretation on sovereign of God is DEAD on👍🙏the naked through God not talk about by the Church. You guys argue about wording, whatever, you do, you wil not be able to clear God😂😂😂He does not know your defence! Go through, Job1:12, Iaiash 10:5, 55:7-9, John 3:15,16,27 John 6: 37,44,36,47 Act 4:27 n many more, have demonstrated the sovereignty of God. The Tulip Truth’s glory is not to reform churches please brothers! There are biblical facts ! Amen!

[@officialDavidRees]

@@patrickteo9444 no amen. Taking a few verses out of context and saying calvinism is the only truth is a lie breathed straight from the mouth of Satan. TULIP, not found in scripture, is the very thing Paul warned us not to fall for. You may have been saved by the true Gospel but you're preaching something else now.

[@avranju]

I find the Calvinistic God abhorrent too. But I wonder whether one can make the case that the reason the division over this point of doctrine exists in the Christian community is because the ambiguity is in the scripture that both sides use to defend their position. There are many passages of scripture that seem to make the Calvinistic case and there are many passages that seem to refute Calvinism and it seems to boil down to personal hermeneutical preferences to resolve the ambiguity.

[@davehammer9000]

@@avranjuwell said- this is the problem I couldn’t get around, that there are verses that, based on plain reading, conflict, and one can lean into the interpretation that they favor, rather than the message just being inarguably clear from the get-go I would think that a truly divine message would be faultlessly clear and understandable to its reader more than anything man could create, and I just don’t see this sort of clarity/understandability from the Bible

[@avranju]

@@davehammer9000 I think there are things scripture is clear and unambiguous about and my view is that foundational doctrines, "mere Christianity" if you will, belong to that category. It seems to me that being wrong about Calvinism, in the final analysis, doesn't amount to much. As the apostle James put it, true religion consists of looking after orphans and widows and in keeping oneself from being stained by the world.

[@BrianAz]

Good stuff. Ol' Megan does the same damage against the understanding of this passage and Christianity in the eyes on non-believers as the charismatics do with all their misuse of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. So many non-believers watch clips like that where she speaks in ignorance and then instantly use it to confirm their unbelief. That is the danger of not being able to clearly understand these complicated verses and use them as a weapon.

[@RUT812]

Don’t paint all Charismatics with the same brush! We are not monolithic. There are some major differences in theology and church practice.

[@joeldemings7064]

That was very helpful, especially explaining that the context is talking about the nation of Israel. Obviously, there were individuals who believed when Christ came the first time, but the nation as a whole rejected him and therefore, as you mentioned, they ironically became the pharaoh of that Passover.

[@TimothyFish]

I've heard that Derek Webb is no longer claiming to be an atheist. I'm not exactly sure about that, but a friend of mine had some involvement with him with regards to some Christian event.

[@JohnQPublic11]

As Reformed Theologists disheartedly shuffle through “the Gates of Hell” they’ll hear John Calvin giving a poetic rendition of Romans 9 with Disturbed’s “Down with the Sickness” playing in the background.

[@Mathew247]

John, I've see you on here for a long time now. You hate Calvinism as much as I do. You're a smart thinker. I think you will get this right away. I'll start by pasting a post I just made above and ask you to pause and think about it.... I recently published a work and in it I show that Jacob and Esau depict nations in Rebekah's womb but they are not Edom and Israel. The purpose of the quote from Malachi is not to show which nation Jesus came from, something everyone already knows. There is a more spiritual meaning at play. The context and conclusion is that Jews were missing righteousness for thinking that it was attained by law...while Gentiles were attaining unto righteousness by faith. The contrast throughout Romans is Old Covenant/ New Covenant...Law / Faith...Letter/ Spirit...Law/ promise...Flesh/ Spirit. The two "nations" that were in Rebekah's womb were national Israel and the Church. That is Paul's point and that is why his kinsfolk of the "flesh" were not getting saved save a small remnant.

[@evolgenius1150]

Or nickelback.

[@davidmedina7169]

It occurs to me that if Calvinistic interpretation of Roman 9 is referring to individual predetermined election, then how can a non-elect person be “grafted” back into the Olive tree after being broken off? Can’t be non-elect, then elect right? Rom 11:23. “And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again”

[@samvogel2368]

There are also many who have "left the Christian faith" that weren't calvinists. Agreed, Westborouh Baptist church is an awful representation of the Christian church- their behavior is NOT BIBLICAL.

[@climatematters6632]

I spoke on "what is the Gospel" last Sunday. First point the Gospel means (translated) good news found in OT and NT. If you find any 'gospel' which is not good news … it's not the Gospel! End of! 🤔

[@blackwater642]

This is true. It’s hardly good news for sinners to learn that God hates them.

[@jjphank]

God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinists it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross!

[@JD10503]

​@@jjphankBut you can't escape that fact either. God's wrath, anger, and yes, even hatred shouldn't be watered down for the sake of some feel-good preaching. The true Gospel should not make people feel good. It should put them in absolute terror of a God who not only can drop them into Hell without a second thought but would be well within His rights to do that very thing.

[@jjphank]

@@JD10503 Junior, drink your milk. The milk of the word explains it all. God truly is love! he does use fear to save -23rd Jude and first corinthians 9:21 …..but most people are saved from seeing his love of his son, who died on the cross for their sins.!

[@Gablesman888]

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. "John 6:44. The word translated "draws" is the Greek word "helko". This word means (1) "to draw or to drag off" and (2) to be driven, forced, urged, impelled. It is a word that suggests force. Elsewhere in the NT this word is used in such places as describing how Paul and Silas were dragged before the authorities (Acts 16:19) and when Paul was dragged out of the temple (Acts 21:30). There are other dragging uses. Kittles' Dictionary of NT words describes the meaning as something like "to drag by overcoming with irresistible force". And note that the editors of Kittles are anything but Augustinian in theology. What the John 6:44 verse means (and supported by verses in the OT as well as the NT), is that Jesus is saying that God must do something to us and for us before we have any chance of knowing Christ in a saving way. God does what He told Moses that He did with the children of Israel: "You did not choose me, I chose you". Jesus will reprise this teaching in John 17, with Nicodemus in John 3, and later here in chapter 6:65: "...no one can come to me, unless it has been granted him from the Father." As it says in Jonah: Salvation is of the Lord. No wonder Jesus refers to Himself as the Alpha and the Omega. No wonder Jesus is referred to as the "author and finisher of our faith". God makes the first move. God has to make the first move or we are not saved. Yet there are still Arminians who insist on saving themselves first. They will not admit it, but they believe they possessed some degree of self-righteousness before salvation rather than God first introducing them to the truth of His Word through election. Dead men are just that. Dead. Only God through His Holy Spirit can quicken the dead to life. Lazarus did not come out of the tomb so as to be alive. Lazarus became alive so he could come out of the tomb. Eternal difference.

[@AVB2-LST1154]

My best guess is that all those sinners on Judgment Day that God dragged into heaven while they screamed and kicked against the goads will be the first to fall on their knees and praise God for being forceful.

[@Gablesman888]

@@AVB2-LST1154 My factual message (no guesswork involved) is that your fantasies are running morbidly wild like most A/Ps. Now just look at what you blogged: "dragged...screamed...kicked". Will you please name those people for an awaiting world? Do you really know anyone who fits that description? Really? You have moshed yourself headlong into one of the silly result cul-de-sacs that afflict the secular humanism that is so A/P. You need to understand the Gospel. Not so fun fact for you: You did not employ any Bible verses to back up your fantasy. Note I employed Bible verses (and left out a hundred at least) to make my point about a loving Almighty God who elects and calls His own to Himself. If you haven't already, there is still time to catch the train. Romans 8:28-30.

[@godslittleman5451]

I heard a non- Calvinist say in a debate, “there’s about 40 to 60 verses they use to prove Calvinism” -me thinks, “wow, that’s a lot of verses. 🔑 We calvinists aren’t calvinists because we like it, it’s not popular, it’s not pleasing to men, it slows down evangelism. We aren’t calvinists because we like it. We believe it because we are being honest, and we are compelled to see the whole counsel of God as having value.

[@cseay50]

It’s just amazing how Dr. Flowers has gone through these voluminous numbers of verses, chapters and books of Scripture to attempt to convey what the Holy Spirit really “didn’t” mean to communicate. Without getting into “Calvinism,” it’s pretty obvious to most objective readers that a man chooses his ways but you will fulfill God’s destiny and purpose for your life. Just curious, according to the second chapter of Proverbs, where does genuine revelation/fear of the LORD come from and what’s the two step process for achieving it?

[@patrickbarnes9874]

I have a very difficult time feeling much more than a lack of respect for Megan Phelps. I converted to Christianity on my own with no church or tradition involved. I read Romans 9 for the first time without any outside influence. I saw the part about the twins and about the potter and clay and it initially did sound evil but that didn't match my experience with God. Since both were quotes from the Old Testament I went and looked up where they originated and read those passages. I was like oh, okay, this is referring to how God chose Israel to be the nation through which His word and redemption would come to the world, that makes sense. It took me all of 2 minutes to dispel the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9. I did it without even knowing there was such a thing as Calvinist and non-Calvinist interpretations of the Bible. All you have to do to drop the Calvinism out of Romans 9 is read it responsibly. If you read something that includes a quote, look at where the quote comes from. It's not difficult. It's not complicated. So I really cannot respect her tale of having gone on a quest to find some way that Romans 9 isn't evil. Exercise normal reading comprehension skills. That's all that is required to see that Calvinism's interpretation of Romans 9 is nonsense.

[@jjphank]

Good for you to catch it so quickly!! Keep up the good work! God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinists it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross!

[@jen4um]

Best comment ever. You were discerning and searching the scriptures rightly. Thank you so much for your comment.

[@grahck4391]

If I was confronted with someone like her, I would show her the passages from the Old Testament that Paul quotes from and show her the whole context in the Old Testament: Genesis 18, Genesis 21, Genesis 25, Jeremiah 18, Malachi 1, and show her that all of those passages are referring to the nations of Israel and/or Edom, not individual people. Once I've shown her those, I would ask her one question: Would Paul take a passage out of context? After that, I would show her an interpretation that is consistent with the context of the passages Paul quotes from.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

If Romans 9 supported Calvinism, then Romans 9 would contradict the rest of the Bible.

[@couriersix7326]

Only if your reading comprehension is that of a 5 year old.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

@@couriersix7326 1 Corinthians 13:2 [2]And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

[@astrawboiii1853]

@@couriersix7326is that your fruit?

[@jimyoung9262]

Good talk. Thanks.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

2:48 No Megan, Paul isn't "painting the picture that God made some people for the purpose of torturing them and made others for mercy." He's saying WHAT IF that were true? I guess you don't know this, but the unbelieving Jews believed and taught that God did that for centuries. They taught that THEY (big surprise here) were the mercy ones and the DIRTY GENTILES (again, big surprise) were the torture ones. Someone should have taught you this (or if you ever hang out with any Jews you'll figure this out) because it's an EVIL and RIDICULOUS thing to teach that God did this. But Paul knows this is terribly wrong, and he sees that if it were true, then based on how things were turning out, the Gentiles would be the mercy ones now because they're the ones following God and God's son, not the Jews. So IF it were true, which it IS NOT, then wouldn't the holier-than-thou Jews in Paul's audiences throughout his ministry be the torture ones? Paul is asking a hypothetical to which he expects the answer No," not "Yes."

[@richsellskc]

EXCELLENT review of Romans 9. Romans 9, 10, 11 are aimed at the Jews and the topic of unbelief. I am reminded immediately of so many verses regarding faith....one in particular.... But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Heb. 11:6

[@Nazareyes-zu3ul]

Great points. I will add that God didn’t garden Pharaohs heart by tweaking or manipulating his heart like some toy but rather God hardened his heart by taking the life of his first born son, by a harsher judgment for his pride. Pharaoh was already proud and ruthless and God made a point of him and used him to demonstrate His own power and wrath. If we harden our hearts to the Lord we make ourselves vessels of wrath, if we seek Him we are reshaped into vessels of mercy and grace. Freewill

[@Stills777]

“And remember, our Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him- speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.” ‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3‬:‭15‬-‭16‬

[@jamesba-xd7xf]

great video brother!

[@Redeemed26]

This was a good discussion for those who've had some theological training. It would be great if it could be done on a layman's understanding. One of the thoughts that came up, was that some people believe the hyper Calvinistic, few of Romans nine due to the fact that old Adams nature is still present, even after salvation. So they have assumed that God has rejected them..

[@robinq5511]

That's exactly how heresies can shipwreck faith: offer them some truth then use scripture to deny it.

[@blackwater642]

An interesting thing about Megan Phelps and all these Calvinists that Dr. Flowers features, who deconstruct their faith and leave Christianity, is that >they remain Calvinist,< even as non-Christians. The god they don’t believe in will always be the Calvinist view of God. They will give up Jesus for John Calvin. Kinda makes you wonder about their salvation to begin with.

[@ryanemge7659]

She wants to have that problem with Romans 9. Its super easy to find alternative interpretations.

[@YingGuoRen]

Yes, and the alternative interpretations are grasping at straws, desperately trying to make Paul out to be saying something that he is clearly not saying. According to the New Testament, the entirety of our world is just a gigantic puppet show created for the glory of God, and God has created non-believers specifically to torture them for eternity. The liberal, hippie, peace-and-love Christianity of pop culture is not found in the NT.

[@t1watt]

I just saw this while watching your video! Romans 9:12 was said before Jacob & Esau were born (around 1652 BCE - Genesis 25:23) and Romans 9:13 was said by Malachi (around 460 BCE - Malachi 1:2-3). So, people conflate these two verses because they are one after the other in Romans and wrongly conclude that God hated Esau before he was born. But what God was really saying while the children were in the womb...."I have sovereignly seen the older will serve the younger." But the actual loving Jacob and hating Esau was uttered 1200 years later in the book of Malachi after they had lived their lives. God was essentially saying ...."I loved Jacob because he served me and kept my commandments and I hated Esau (how he lived his life) because he rejected Me and My commandments." WOW! Thank you guys for helping me find this in the scriptures! God's character and nature are intact! He is GOOD and consistent!

[@pford]

I've also come to this realization in my own study. That God did not prescribe either one for good or evil, but was prophetically telling Rebekah what would happen. If Jacob had not made his choices, then Isaac would not have bestowed the blessing and promise of Abraham to him, but rather to Esau. God honors His promises and thus Jacob is the heir of that promise due to the outcome of he and Esau's quarrels. Paul mentions this specifically in saying that "before they did anything good or evil". So it is God's promise to Abraham that God honors by appearing to Jacob only AFTER Isaac grants it to him. It seems to be Jacob's acknowledgement of God at this point that God uses to mold him into a willing vessel. Likewise, Esau never mentions, interfaces with, or cares about God at all in scripture. God is always faithful in keeping His promises. The "hardening" also reminds me of firing clay in a kiln and the fact that while clay is moldable, God can still work with it, but eventually if a person refuses to ackowledge him and repent, God will "give them up" to debasement (Rom 1:28). This likely happened to Esau.

[@robinlegare7414]

Excellent . Thank you

[@76hellothere]

This man does a great job flooding KZbin with human reason and logic in order to discredit the Bible. He does a horrible job exegeting it. Folks, pick up the scriptures and read it for yourself. Where Paul says it is not dependent on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy (Romans 9:16), the whole chapter is supporting that sentence. Calvinism, as an unbeliever (and for which reason these men hate it so much), frightened and saddened me, because for many years I labored under a fluctuating perception of the weight of my sin. I longed to see and understand the Gospel. Paul describes this experience as being under the law, which is the schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24) that leads us to Christ. But when faith came, after 18 years of having first asked God to save me, at 43 years old, it came after reading Romans 3:21, 4:5, 5:1, 10:10, 2 Cor 5:21, throughout 2020. The Father drew me to the Son (John 6:44). Christ is preparing his bride which is the church for eternity. If you are hopelessly agonizing over a sense of wrath that the law brings, knowing yourself to be unrighteousness, don’t settle on discarding the biblical teachings of Calvin and adopting and “accepting” people like these teachings (I haven’t gotten past their efforts to simply try to discredit the men who bulldozed through the dangerous trails that brought about the colossal movement known as the Protestant reformation.). Look to Christ and Him crucified. As one theologian once put it, he’s never heard of an unconverted man who died at the foot of Jesus.

[@jjphank]

Romans 9:1-3 , Why did Paul say he wishes he could be cut off for Israel? if he really understood predestination he would not have said that! Same thing goes with Hymenias and Alexander shipwrecking their faith or Pharisees making someone twice the son of hell as they are; but you guys actually say, ‘well God did that’ because there’s no free will ! Come on, you see how many scriptures are nullifying?? God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross!

[@glennshrom5801]

Leighton Flowers and Scott Mitchell, if you're still checking these comments, please check this one out. About 15 minutes through, Scott talks about the context in Exodus. What an eye-opener to me, when I saw that the context is that God had both shown mercy to Pharaoh, and had hardened Pharaoh! God could have destroyed Pharaoh early on, but he spared Pharaoh instead, showing mercy on him even to the point of raising him up to be perhaps the greatest human leader of the greatest nation on earth at that time! Exodus 9.15-16. God did all this in order to display his glory in all the earth; it was through the Exodus that the surrounding Gentile nations learned that YHWH was the greatest God who ever lived, the living God, worthy of fear and worship! The question, then, as NT Wright explains in Paul and the Faithfulness of God, is why God would allow Israel to reject her Messiah? The answer Paul gives, is to look at how God used a hardening in the past. God used the hardening of Pharaoh to display His glory to all nations. Now in the Church era, God would use the hardening of Israel to be the impetus to have the Good News and the Spirit of God reach the Gentiles! If Israel had embraced the Messiah, the Gentiles might just think it was a matter of nationalist pride or mere legend, and the Jews might have thought God was showing favoritism to them and rejecting the Gentiles. If God could allow/cause Pharaoh's hardening for the purpose of getting the nations to know Him, then he can use the hardening of Israel to get the nations to know Him. The hardening of hearts, far from being an obstacle to God's purposes being accomplished, can actually be the catalyst to His purposes being accomplished. Eventually, then, the Gentile faith in the Messiah in the Church Age would lead to Israel's faith in the Messiah in the Church Age, once everything goes full circle, and in this way God would save not only the Gentile nations but Israel as well! The focus is on how God reaches the nations, not on individual persons within any given nation. Also, it had been said that Pharaoh was shaped on a potter's wheel for Pharaoh to be a son of god and a god himself. Paul, on the other hand, is saying that the Egyptian gods are not the reason Pharaoh was raised up, but actually YHWH is the God who raised Pharaoh up and had mercy on Pharaoh. The "clay" illustration is not God's control vs. our self-determination, but rather the control of the gods of the Gentiles in global glory vs. the control of YHWH in determining who gets global glory. These are just a few of the observations I've been able to see with the help of scholars. Maybe you know all this now, but I was a bit disappointed that none of it came up in the video you did on Romans 9. As far as the hardening, some parts of Exodus say that Pharaoh hardened his heart, others just say that Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and others say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. The hardening is like a thickening, where the heart grows in size and toughness, like a callous. Brad Young explains how a message from God is designed to produce an immediate yes, but how a no and each subsequent no leads to the callous getting thicker. The more the skin is hit upon, the more likely it is to develop a callous, and the more a callous is hit upon, the harder it gets. God's role in hardening the heart of Pharaoh could be that he sent the message to Pharaoh again and again, allowing for Pharaoh to say no again and again. In other words, it's like God kept tapping the skin of Pharaoh, causing it to harden, not that God was working from the inside of Pharaoh's DNA to make him have a thick skin in his nature. It was Pharaoh's choice to say yes or no, not God's.

[@glennshrom5801]

I used to read the Book of Romans as a manual on how to be saved, and ignored all the parts about Jews and Gentiles as historical incidentals that don't apply to the modern reader anymore. Now I realize that the real theme of the book (epistle) is how salvation relates to Jews and Gentiles together, in different ways and at different times, but how that is really the whole point of the letter! We can't put Jews and Gentiles into parentheses, when this is so prominently the topic of the epistle! It's clear in the introduction, doxology, conclusion, and again and again throughout the whole letter. "I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes ..." was the only part I was interested in, and then I'd push aside the rest of the verse as though irrelevant for our reading: "... to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Ouch, what a way of reading that leads to misunderstandings through and through! But that's how I think Calvin read it. And it's how many Catholics of his era may have framed it, as a letter about soteriology rather than a letter about people groups. Catholics of Calvin's day were so far away from any idea of how God was using Israel historically or in the future, and how the Church was always meant to be composed of Jews and Gentiles living as one body in the Messiah!

[@rodneytruitt9335]

I have listened to some of your videos and have heard some things that trouble me. On one video you said when someone starts talking about hell , you don't like to talk about that, so you push it down. I have noticed when the bible speaks in passages like Rom. 9 that say things like ,vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath, you seem to change the meaning of the passage. Changing it into something easier to accept. I am glad this young lady accepted the bible says what it says but it am not glad that she has chosen not to accept the truth of what is said. We are called to believe His word not to deny and change it. If my bible said in Rom. 9, what you claim it is saying, I would believe what you are saying. The problem is that is not what is written. So I chose to believe Paul, not Calvin, because what Paul said is exactly what God wants us to believe. Thanks

[@hapeauge4769]

Romans 9 was a problematic chapter for me, even before I knew that there was something like Calvinism. So explaining it is really important.

[@robinq5511]

It seems pretty obvious that Megan Phelps Roper was not yet a believer, else her faith would have been settled on the true nature of God and she would have questioned her understanding before she accused God of such a thing. Which is why the so-called gospel of Calvinism doesn't save therefore they have to first draw in unchurched believers in order to convert them to their theology. The association of the Jews with Pharoah is also depicted here: Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Good interview: Concise, to the point and brief!

[@a.k.7840]

As for Paul having more concern for saving Israel than God (Rom 9:1-3), I think we should put that aside and recognize a point that seems more fundamental: *why is Paul differing from God?* There seems to be some disjunction between the Holy Spirit inspired Paul and the Calvinistic version of God. I have yet to see a good explanation for this.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

By good do you mean convincing? Or thorough? Thorough would be Calvinists misunderstand Romans 9 to teach that God elects only some people. Paul doesn’t believe that so Paul’s lament over Israel’s unbelief is in line with God’s lament over then. But Calvinism’s god only chooses to save some, and not others, so that god wouldn’t lament. That’s the reason for the difference. Calvinism is just wrong. Therefore, can’t be convincing.

[@a.k.7840]

@@TheRomans9Guy so far the "best" explanation I've been given is that Paul's behavior aligns with the "revealed will," which means he's being consistent with scripture, but contradicts the "secret will" and how these two can contradict is a mystery. Clearly that person was engaged whole heartedly in paradigm preservation. I spoke with a man who's been a Calvinist for over 40 years and he conceded that there's no indication in the text or in Paul's theology that would indicate that Paul was writing about the non-elect! Naturally, that's the whole point! All other attempts to provide a sufficient answer amount to little more than rationalizing why it's ok for this disjunction to exist, including denigrating Paul's knowledge on the subject!

[@TheRomans9Guy]

@@a.k.7840 Hey AK, so, I’m still confused. Do you believe the tenets of Calvinism or not?

[@a.k.7840]

@@TheRomans9Guy I do not and I think you understood my OP correctly. God is not agonizing over the eternal fate of those whom He did not elect and if a Calvinist says He is, then they've simply made God irrational as if He's a man. Thus Paul wills to see the non-elect saved and God does not, thereby causing the disjunction.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

@@a.k.7840 got it, thanks!

[@jonnyw82]

Just listened to James White use the story of Joseph as proof text for Calvinism. He said, “…..the brothers wanted to kill Joseph but God keeps that from happening.” His point being God thwarted their desires and decreed that they would not murder Joseph. But, according to Calvinists didn’t God decree that his brothers would desire to kill him in the first place and also decree that He wouldn’t let them? Seems sooooo convoluted.

[@timetravlin4450]

Yes. God decrees when He will act within his creation. It’s not super complicated. It’s part of his plan.

[@jonnyw82]

@@timetravlin4450 You’re not understanding. James says thwarting the brothers desire to murder Joseph was an example of His sovereign decree but God decreed them to desire to murder Joseph in the first place. So God was thwarting His initial decree for them to desire to murder with a secondary decree to thwart their efforts by having him sold into slavery.

[@timetravlin4450]

⁠@@jonnyw82it’s clear God has a purpose and plan. I understand what you’re saying but I don’t agree with it.

[@shredhed572]

​@@timetravlin4450 Deflect

[@mtac99]

​@@timetravlin4450yes, but the only reason you disagree is God decreed that you disagree

[@brandonmalone5758]

The one fatal flaw of this discussion is assuming the woman in the video had been taught by "Calvinists" to interpret Romans 9 the way she did. Perhaps she was just bothered by the text itself and it's plain reading.

[@KMM61873]

How do good preachers like Voddie Baucham and John MacArthur believe this then? They seem so smart and good at what they do.

[@janwilson6763]

Research all the theologians that DON'T believe Calvinism. The reality is this is a centuries old debate. For me, that's what people need to know. That if they reject Calvinism so do hundreds of smart, scholarly theologians through the centuries. And vice versa.

[@timothyflaherty5150]

​@@janwilson6763Well then Jan, it's a good thing Bible truth is not arrived at by consensus, nor is it a matter of private/personal interpretation. Good day to you sir.

[@deezerbe5045]

Dr. Flowers is more charitable than I am about this doctrine of hell called Calvinism. I'm glad he is doing the work of combating this garbage heresy. I think that the average run of the mill Calvinist church member is probably saved (most converts learn Calvinism after salvation), but the people teaching this garbage I think are false prophets. This garbage doctrine besmirches the character of God, the love of God, it dishonors Christ, and it diminishes God's sovereignty. I'm grateful for Dr. Flowers doing this work, he's more charitable and cool headed than I am. I hate this trash theology.

[@sampowellmusic]

I wouldn’t waste your time contacting Megan Phelps. I would go after Joe Rogan, you deserve to be on his podcast anyway as the leading voice for the provisionist camp

[@HowToThink-h7e]

What gets me is the amount of damage that might have done to Joe Rogan. That is a near killing blow to evangelism. Getting that out of his head will be so much harder than it was for Megan to unwittingly put it there.

[@silkee1922]

This is the first video that connected an obvious link for me....of Atheism being the logical next step to Calvinism. Listening to a Calvinist always made me wonder why did they bother with the God thing at all?

[@coreyevans9543]

What are the best books that will explain Leighton's views on this topic? Haven't studied this topic for a long time and would like to hear the most recent arguments and exegesis on the topic. Thanks and may the God of Messiah Jesus bless you.

[@herbbutterworth192]

This was a very helpful video for those that struggle with Romans 9. It simply can’t be isolated unto itself. It must be taken in context to all of scripture. In this context, the Calvinistic interpretation falls apart. Also, for those interested, Pastor Scott recently did a series on Calvinism on his channel Bible Made Clear. It’s very well done and I strongly recommend it

[@shredhed572]

I agree, but with this caveat. The context of the epistle wherein this chapter resides is of foremost importance. After that, then the context of the rest of scripture Tale care

[@herbbutterworth192]

Fair enough. The result will be the same. Would you agree?

[@jdude7650]

I see one misspoken quotation. Somewhere between 15:15 and 15:45, The guest references, Paul mentioning the gentiles and the Jews took him to a cliff to throw him off. That was a slip of the tongue. It was Jesus that they took to the cliff to throw off, not Paul. Chronologically the first mention of Paul is in the book of Acts. Do I get a cookie for paying attention?😊

[@TheRomans9Guy]

2:33 I love how Megan Phelps, like every Calvinist, completely leaves out Paul's actual point in verses 10-13, the part in verse 12 where he says "she was told the elder will serve the younger." OF COURSE you're going to screw up Paul's message and become an idiot Calvinist if you gloss over the ACTUAL POINT HE'S TEACHING. Good grief.

[@TheBuronic]

I believe Calvinism can be a doctrine of Balaam mentioned in Revelation 2:14

[@mrmcgowan]

I've been wondering lately how many of these "deconstructionists" are actually victims of Calvinism.

[@scottp.bushey7435]

Here’s the answer and the contrast. One can easily see that the apostle Paul is referring back in his letter to Timothy to his statement he made in Romans 9; as a Calvinist, this was epic for me. For 25 years I was a Calvinist. How many times have I read these passages never linked them together. Interesting contrast: Romans 9:20-21 (NIV): 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? 2 Timothy 2:20-21 (NIV): 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

[@bobbyadkins6983]

There's nothing evil about Romans 9, just her interpretation of it. Jeremiah 18 helps a lot. So does Malachi and Obadiah and the rest of the Bible.

[@andrewwalker1764]

Dont follow a denomination, just a Bible believing place that just keeps it simple, salvation is a free gift, God wants all to be saved and makes it easy as possible to be saved as He did the hard part by loving us so much He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him shall be saved, God made salvation free and sinple, He did the hard part but man makes it complicated

[@Saskinny]

I'm sure most people, including Megan don't believe this, but IF Megan Phelps, at some point in her life, placed her faith in Christ by believing that what He did on the Cross was payment for sin and that she trusted that to be applied to her, she IS SAVED. The fact that she has confusion or doesn't call herself a Christian annymore, or chooses to no longer grow in her faith does NOT wipe away her salvation! Why do I believe this? John 3:3...3:16....6:39...10:18-29 Romans 5:1...8:1-2...*31-39 Ephesians 1:13-14...2:8-9...4:30 1 John 5:13 Hebrews 6:18-20...7:25...13:5 1 Peter 1:5

[@ronpatton5721]

I agree that Calvinism has caused a lack and loss of faith - a fall from Grace; therefore, it is right to call the teaching out as a false teaching that when taught is religious error. Teachers of religious error are displeasing to God and are condemned unless they repent. Start calling it what it really is, and keep up the good work.

[@glennshrom5801]

Piper wrote a book that has more than one edition: Let the Nations Be Glad. In it, he is emphatic and repetitive that the commission is not so much about reaching every individual, but about reaching every people group. I'm surprised that the "nations" context of Romans 9 doesn't put him on the same side as today's Leighton Flowers. I don't know what Piper would say about Romans 9 in this sense, but from this video I get the idea that Piper would be looking at it as God's choice as the potter of individuals, on an individual basis. The setting up of not all Abraham's seed being in the ancestry, and Jacob over Esau, seems to be setting up the election of Israel as God's people, which is what drives Paul to ask that serious question NT Wright talks about: "With God's purpose in choosing Israel as His people, how could it be today that Israel on the whole is not putting faith in the Messiah?" To which Paul answers that God is using Israel's rejection to reach the Gentiles on a large scale first, after which time there will be faith on the part of Israel as well! God has not un-elected Israel, but He is working out His purposes for the whole world in a sensible way, Israel included! Paul seems to be prophetic about this, not just an exegete, although Paul is basing his prophetic conclusion on the Tenakh. I addressed Piper several times about a Look-at-the-Book video where a mistake is made. Piper said in that video that he would like anyone to point out where he is wrong if he is, but no acknowledgement was given when I pointed out that all Jews know that all the descendants of Abraham are not Israel, but only the descendants of Jacob (the man named Israel) are Israel (the nation). Piper had jumped to Paul's example of Abraham's offspring as though it were Paul's argument directly supporting Romans 9.6. But actually, the example of Abraham's offsrping is a proof of 9.7, which only indirectly speaks to how not all of Israel's descendants are Israel, by citing a similar case. In Piper's video he reads it as direct proof of 9.6, but it is only a parallel. I explained all of that in a single detailed page by letter. Piper's office staff did reply to me, but they blew off the point I was making, and I don't think they ever let Piper read it. I even told them that in the video Piper had invited feedback.

[@norm1158]

God knows us and is patient. But he also knows the eventual outcome of our choices. That he knows does not mean he is evil.

[@Ed-ts4bj]

Romans 9 Paul starts with the Nation of Israel as the example. Read verse 24, Romans 9 applies to the Nation of Israel, gentiles, the Church, down to each individual. The logical conclusion of your doctrine, is the LORD’s elect can be deceived!

[@AVB2-LST1154]

Arminians are the one's that are deceived.

[@r1ppy_]

Does verse 24: "even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" not directly refute the idea that Paul means this on a national level?

[@magnushartman5661]

According to the book "Strange Scriptures That Perplex the Western Mind" the potter doesn't start with intent to create a vessel unto dishonor. The potter endeavors to create a vessel unto honor. The clay is placed on the wheel for shaping and the potter begins. If the vessel doesn't form correctly the potter will start over and continue to try to reshape the vessel. The potter will continue this until the clay becomes unworkable to result in a good vessel. The clay is then only good for a vessel unto dishonor (chamber pot?). The meaning is this: God will seek to form us into a vessel unto honor until our heart becomes too hard to work with and will then commit us to be a vessel unto dishonor. God will make every effort he can to save us but we still have the free will to refuse him. The lady in the video misquoted Paul saying that Paul said God made us that way. What Paul actually said was that the guilty ones would say that its not our fault, God made us this way which is actually a Calvinistic response. Paul answers that assertion with a strong rebuke that God was just in his actions by denying them because of their lack of cooperation to be made holy. True, they couldn't reply against God in any case, but the reality is that God tries and we refuse.

[@stephenhoggarth3012]

Anyone who wants to know more about Calvinism should consider reading Calvin’s works, together with all of scripture. Focusing purely on Romans 9 and its interpretation makes for straw-man arguments

[@nancynorberg1235]

david Pawson 's video Ephesians such a wonderful explaination or rebuttal of Phelphs

[@DadBradTo5]

Re: People leaving the faith due to Calvinism.... Its so "simple" to explain! - - They were PREDESTINED to LEAVE THE FAITH from Eternity Past!! Yup, that's it!!

[@Roadrunner6886]

Reject Calvinism but don't reject God.

[@JD10503]

If you reject Calvinism, you reject the Gospel itself.

[@jjphank]

How can you shipwreck your own faith unless God did it? And as Jesus said , how can the Pharisees make somebody twice the son of hell ? But Calvinists say, God ultimately does that so you can’t get any instructions from the Bible if you’re a Calvinist, because it contradicts these two passages and all of the commandments in the New Testament, 1,050 of them! They throw 90% of the Bible out the window and they’re still wrong on the predestination verses! God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross! Look, God is holy, and he’s stern with his word, and he’s ticked off if you’re disobeying the word of God ! Hebrews 12: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

[@Redeemed26]

2 Peter 3:15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.".

[@jazminforbes209]

I have a question. I’ve been listening to Paul washer lately and I’ve got his books on the gospel and I try to look into the teachers I listen to just to see their background and theological leanings. I don’t understand Calvinism that much (that’s why I’m on this this KZbin channel) but is Paul washer a Calvinists?

[@grizz4489]

In response to your comment, yes, Paul Washer holds to reformed theology ( calvinism ) or sometimes also referenced as lordship salvation. I reject what Mr. Washer teaches. I , myself , if you must put a label on it hold the position that would be called free grace theology. Free grace theology and lordship salvation are in direct opposition to one another.

[@clint120]

Paul washer is a Calvinist

[@Saskinny]

What Calvinists ALWAYS use is "Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated." Well, read the whole chapter! God told Rebekah that two NATIONS were in her womb. The younger Jacob would serve the older Esau. That is NATIONAL not INDIVIDUAL. It has NOTHING to do with God choosing some for Heaven and other for Hell. Absolutely NOTHING.

[@mccaski2]

Hey @soteriology101 any details on the debate between you and James White in Houston in March 2024? Would actually be interested in making the flight from Reno, NV and making a trip out of it with a buddy from our Bible study who is a Calvinist (have some good Cajun-Viet Fusion, and enjoy a lively debate), but want to make sure we could actually attend before spending on tickets etc!

[@heatherwoods5703]

I did a deep dive into Romans last year and also noticed how clear Paul was that it is indeed national Isreal he's talking about by the various ways he talks about them "according to the flesh" and the like. It would make no sense for Paul to wish he could be accurst for them to be saved unless he meant the nation of Isreal. Ya know, his people? Similarly, how in Genesis God uses Evening, Morning, Day for the days of creation so people couldn't legitimately argue for some long day, but rather literal 24-hour days. 👍

[@jjphank]

God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinists it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross!

[@Mathew247]

Dr. Flowers, I mailed you my book on Jacob and Esau quite a while ago. The reason this intelligent, yet deceived woman has not found a feasible interpretation of Romans 9 13 is because most are totally missing the reason why Paul quotes Malachi regarding the twins and what nations they represented in Rebekah's womb. Please pick up that book and read it.

[@johndisalvo6283]

What’s the name of it?

[@Mathew247]

Jacob and Esau Two Nations and the Inheritance

[@johndisalvo6283]

@@Mathew247 thanks

[@rorywynhoff1549]

​@@Mathew247Thank you, I'm ordering it now.

[@Mathew247]

@@rorywynhoff1549 wow TY! I hope to get your feedback