Romans 9: Piper vs William Lane Craig

Dr. Flowers play a portion of a message on Romans 9 from Dr. John Piper ( • The Mystery of Electio... ) and compares it to a message by Dr. William Lane Craig ( • What Does Romans 9 Act... ) so that the audience may compare and contrast each interpretation so as to discern which approach is more reasonable and consistent with the rest of the scripture.
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[@Myrdden71]

Paul - Faith is not a work. Piper - Faith is a work. Me - I'll go with Paul on this one.

[@AKRMINISTRIES]

I believe God has to show His mercy on one inorder for Him to come to CHRIST. No one is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44 LEB

[@1974jrod]

However, a work can be an act of faith. 😉

[@princeamoakwa4057]

@@1974jrod, and that’s what God wants us to do. Our faith produces work. The work proves our faith in God but that doesn’t earn us salvation. Salvation is free and is received by faith. If indeed you’ve received it, some fruits or works will show.

[@1974jrod]

@Mark Haines which verse regarding James are you specifically referring to

[@Myrdden71]

@Mark Haines I believe Paul is speaking of salvation, while James is speaking of effective Christian living, i.e., faith without works is dead (what does dead mean here? up for interpretation, perhaps meaning useless to the world and the people in it other than yourself, and useless for making yourself more like what God wants you to be?). Whatever it may be, I seen on conflict between James and Paul, neither have most Christians and theologians for the past 2,000 years. I do not recall James writing that people are saved by their works, but that the works would be proof of their salvation, just as the fruit of a tree is proof of what kind of tree a person is looking at. "Faith without works is dead" is not the same as "Faith without works is a contradiction." A muscle may atrophy, but that does not mean that it is not still there. It's just not useful for anyone. And I've often heard it said that faith is like a muscle, and the more often you use it, relying on it, the stronger it gets. It's all metaphor, but that doesn't mean it isn't about what is real. :) God bless!

[@Ianbond21]

My 4 year old's favorite story is Jonah. I've read it I don't know how many times. The point I take from it, in my simple mind, is that the Lord wants that no one should perish.

[@omnitheus5442]

and the fact that humans are complicated and indeed stubborn to God's will (how do you get determinism from that? Why would God make it the long way round?)

[@oprophetisfake9482]

Amen. God wants that none should perish but that all should come to repentance.

[@Ianbond21]

@@reynaldodavid2913Jo yes. However, that isn't to say that the Lord prefers that. 100% of man is born condemned. This is true. And the wages of this is death. But according to what I have learned from scripture, His preference is that none perish and that all would come to accept His gracious gift of atonement that He provided through His son's sacrifice. Becoming reborn into a life that is eternally spent in His presence.

[@Ianbond21]

@@reynaldodavid2913Jo no you didn't say different. I can see that. Yes, I agree.

[@kimberleerivera1483]

Glory To GOD!!!

[@joshsingleton4779]

Dr. Flowers, THANK YOU for this ministry. It has helped me grow in my faith and biblical knowledge and work through some tough points.

[@alandennis3853]

It really seems that many turn to Calvinism because they tire of those who water down the Gospel in favor of seeker sensitivity. Thank you for this content, it has helped me a lot because I used to be a Calvinist as well, for the above reasons.

[@johnjaso385]

Thats not a reason believers hold to a calvin view point. Calvins as myself believe that salvation is of the Lord and we are dead to spiritual truth unless the spirit is quicken. In order for that to happen is the Holy Spirit will do it to those who are called.

[@alandennis3853]

@@johnjaso385 Hence the term "it really seems". A personal anecdote at worst and my own experience which may be shared by others at best. A probable factor in some people's decision, I never generalized it.

[@braintrust4kids787]

I completely agree... i have found an entire calvanistic reformed church founded on "American Gospel" fleeing the NAR... sure they open the bible. But they have fled one false gospel... to another. I fled NAR. Went there and instantly saw the same type of patterns there as in the NAR Gaslighting, lying, double speak, and much much more. And the saddest part is i am sure it was not purposeful!! But I fled. Because they were telling me that I needed to wrestle with the topic.. and hit me hard with the re-education....

[@JonathanGrandt]

Calvinism earns a following by taking aim at the easy targets of prosperity preaching and seeker sensitivity.

[@Dilley_G45]

Because they don't know that there are more options than charismatics and calvinists. A simple look at wikipedia would work wonders. People are stupid 😆

[@patl1128]

"How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but YOU were NOT WILLING!" -Luke 13:34 "But THEY refused to pay attention and turned a stubborn shoulder; THEY stopped up their ears from hearing. THEY made their hearts like flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD of Hosts ..." -Zechariah 7:11-12 There's thousands of Bible verses that proves we have free will...

[@shredhed572]

My most recent discovery studying the claims of Calvinism... Rom. 7:18 "....for to will is present with me..." That's paul speaking of himself before Christ. So much for "no free will" in his unsaved state. Also 17 times in the kjv the word freewill appears

[@jeffreyandrewwinters3719]

@@shredhed572 Why else do you think Calvinism is False ?

[@stacy2point0]

You all wrongly presume that calvinists do believe in free will. They do believe in free will! Part of the problem is listening to people like Flowers who constantly misrepresent the other side. Sad.

[@christophersnedeker]

@@jeffreyandrewwinters3719 1 Corinthians 8 11 says those for whom Christ died can still perish. Calvinists will turn around and say perish means temporarily falling into sin but thats not how it's used.

[@livingforjesus8551]

​@@stacy2point0 Calvinists say, you freely do what you want to do, bit it a person wants to come to Christ, they can't freely do that, they have to have their desires changed first, but that happens at regeneration to them. So,regeneration happens, their desires change, and then they can freely choose Christ. That is not freewill. Also, I have talked to many Calvinists, and they call people freewillers all the time, in a condescending attitude, and then say freewill doesn't exist. Regeneration doesn't come, until you get the Holy Spirit, and Paul said, after that you heard the word of truth, and believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. You don't get the Holy Spirit until you have believed, and trusted. That is when the regeneration happens, not before you believe, like calvinists teach. Ephesians 1:13 King James Version 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

[@jedphillips9362]

WLC is a treasure!

[@tombasile3869]

Great Job Leighton - you are right we are fighting against the current of the internet and the position of what Rom. 9 is actually saying - thank you for your work - spot on!

[@anonymoustruth5950]

No matter what you can’t deny what Romans 9 says. God is still saying he is choosing based on mercy and faith. He’s clearly stating God has full sovereignty over man’s will, not man. Which applies to mankind who has faith or who does not -God chooses.

[@rileyneufeld7001]

@@anonymoustruth5950 He absolutely chooses. Just not to the pre deterministic view of John Calvin! He has determined those who are in Christ to be saved, not those he arbitrarily decided prior to conception.

[@dianeglover479]

Could OT Jews pursue God through the law but with faith?

[@vhartzell1]

It’s not really fair that the host first speaks against Piper and then invites Craig to do the same. Either the host stays neutral or invite another Calvinist to balance out the teams. Two against one is not fair.

[@renierbezuidenhout7861]

You are so right! Thank you, @vhartzell1 Flowers pulls a CNN stunt here.

[@thejohn17project15]

It's amazing how people take parts of a single letter out of context from the rest of the letter. Romans 9 should be viewed in light of Romans 2 as well as the rest of Romans as a whole.

[@nicolep7241]

Proof texting. Proof texting Is the method by which a person appeals to a biblical text to prove or justify a theological position without regard for the context of the passage they are citing.

[@JonathanGrandt]

“Stop telling me what the Bible says so I can tell you what the Bible MEANS.” -A Calvinist (Probably)

[@masonmckenna797]

Kind of like taking 35 minutes to explain away a 2 minute video?

[@drewwilson6639]

This seems about as basic as it gets! Not sure why people make this scripture so complicated. WLC explains this very well and makes perfect sense.

[@sheilasmith7779]

Well Drew, when a made up belief is promoted, it's going to have inconsistencies and contradiction. More and more clarification and explanation will be needed. You are right. Knowing nothing, hearing nothing, a straight reading of scripture is quite clear. "Hate," meaning is, " to love less."

[@JAFAtuber]

Ppl who say these kinds of things are insecure, uneducated and intellectually lazy. God is not simple nor is studying Him. If you think it is, then your faith is simplistic. God deserves better.

[@JAFAtuber]

@@sheilasmith7779 Do you have an example of a non made-up belief? Let me guess, there are the ones you hold to be true.

[@sheilasmith7779]

@@JAFAtuber Do you have a century to read? What an absurd question. Shall we start with the simple and move to the complex. Mathematics? 2÷3=5.

[@MatthewHaislip]

I thank God for you and your ministry, Leighton!!

[@kimberleerivera1483]

Glory To GOD!!! Thank you so very much Leighton Flowers!

[@rbrtlambert]

Thank you. This was a great discussion from two great men. I think you kind of tipped the scale however with your constant commentary based on your personal belief. It would have been better served with just listening and deciding for ourselves.

[@markcheney7953]

Thanks! I’ve been missing out on this and WLC.

[@MWTS2012]

Q: Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? Q: What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath prepared for destruction? Q: What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?

[@cedriccharles5641]

Thank you for the marvelous work you and your team are doing. As a student of the Holy Scriptures, I agree with your interpretation and views on this topic. Yes, we will support the efforts to get the message across. Blessings

[@odec1831]

So grateful for your ministry!

[@ladillalegos]

Great video Dr Flowers

[@unknownmindyourown1917]

Liked before watched!! No need to see it first

[@fiftycalguru]

I right there with you. I know it’s very echo chamber-ish but I think Leighton tells the truth so yeah! God bless!

[@scottthong9274]

That's what Biblical type faith is like

[@demetriusmiddleton1246]

@@alexz31cujo31 what "other view"?

[@scottthong9274]

@@alexz31cujo31 Why do you think I did not consider the other views? I've been on a personal journey nonstop examining Soteriology for a year now. I can elucidate what Calvinism teaches, what passages they use as prooftexts, and why they say those passages support Calvinism. Since you have made the accusation, can you yourself say the same about other views you do not hold? For example, can you explain what Biblical reasons are given by those who say Romans 9 is about corporate election, or those who say Romans 9 is about election to service/roles?

[@scottthong9274]

@@alexz31cujo31 Excellent, then you know the Biblical and philosophical reasons why we believe what we do.

[@malvokaquila6768]

I am much closer a a molinist than an Arminianist. I am still unsure that any system can be built that fully accounts for God in reality. I think that's intentional for the maximal number of saved individuals. Also all forms of determinism are self defeating. They break the very thing that's needed for the desired result.

[@alexjoneschannel]

If you believe humans have free will, and you believe he knows subjunctive propositions prior to creation you are a Molinist, if you think it's after for some reason then you are not a Molinist. You can be an Molinist and Arminianist

[@malvokaquila6768]

@@alexjoneschannel I would be a mere molinist for sure.

[@PastorOlegTsymbalyuk]

Praise God for your ministry.

[@animaticToshiue]

What you're saying about how can the rebel be deserving of condemnation is exactly the point that Paul addresses of those who question God's sovereign decreeing: "Why would He still find fault for who can resist His will?"

[@randomname2366]

Wow Piper equating faith to a form of works is eye opening. I already wasn't a calvanist and already don't enjoy much of what he says but that is eye opening about calvanists.

[@beehive9851]

Actually, I see very little difference between Calvinism and the Catholicism I came out of, especially concerning “perseverance”. I never really “knew”if I did enough to make it! Praise God He delivered me from that thinking and by grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone I am wonderfully saved! Faith is NOT a work (Romans 4:5). God doesn’t want robots,He desires those who believe and worship FREELY!

[@scottthong9274]

"Invite you to think which is more reasonable" Uh one of them literally has a ministry called Reasonable Faith 😏

[@johannine2099]

👏👏👏

[@atrious333]

@soteriology101 Some videos ago, could have been a long time ago, Dr. Flowers mentioned a new Bible commentary that is coming out soon. A review of the book on the common texts of contention would be something I could really look forward to.

[@TwoKrows]

One of these two men is a world class thinker and apologist. The other is sincere in his beliefs - God bless him.

[@charliep5072]

Well said

[@brandondoyle9573]

This was masterful and highly edifying. Much appreciated!

[@cherylaguilar5421]

It is June '23 This is helpful. So the issue is that the audience was limiting God's plan of salvation (Israel only, Israel All), but then God wants to show that he can choose to widen his salvation to ANYONE who trusts in Jesus.

[@cherylaguilar5421]

So, is the issue that the analogies taken from the OT are being misapplied? It seems that this is a common area of scripture interpretation differences.

[@ladillalegos]

Great video thanks

[@musiciandeborah1854]

Wow! I truly appreciate the Jeremiah 18 cross reference when responding to the Porta l Potter and clay thing. I thought I was the only one who made that observation. That chapter sheds a lot of light on what Paul could be really saying in Romans. Thank God for the whole counsel of His Word. 🙌🏾

[@jg4x]

Another great video by Soteriology101.

[@wspek]

Thanks for your work Leighton. I know some of the Christian community disagree with you about Calvinism, and others who don't disagree on Calvinism don't agree with you basing your ministry on contesting Calvinism. But for me your work has been a great help. I still have not decided yet (my main issue being Rom. 9:19) but your ministry is necessary for lovers of the truth.

[@danieljohnson7702]

Context...

[@tedzkeys8590]

thanks for sharing ...

[@dedios03]

amzing...amazing, amazing! good stuff and easy

[@irrelevantideology9640]

No. Piper does not think that faith and works are the same. He thinks that works follow faith.

[@abashedsanctimony154]

Yet, he contradicts himself doesn't he. TULIP© is a false religion. On his website he says faith is not a work, when description of election and Salvation comes along...* Faith is a work* and not possessed by 'totally depraved' man. One cannot simply believe in Christ, Christ chooses who will have faith and works on determinism. Remember, calvinism® and Reformed theology by definition is a paradigmatic religion. Election Atonement Grace Pre-destination (pre-ordainment to A place of Adoption into the Kingdom) Depravity (Those are biblical). Because they do not have a adjective attached to them, nor do they have reformed "institutes" and "confessionals" piggybacked onto those doctrines. 'total Depravity' 'unconditional Elections multiple kinds (double pre-destination) • 'limited Atonement' : (false by outset due to logical implications • 'irresistible Grace' (false because God is resistable) His will at the end of judgement day is not resistable however. • `Pre-destination' of the Perservering Saints, Predetermined by God as reprobate or Glorified above the Angels who *also "predetermined to fall" ; "God did not create man sinful, dead in sins, incapable of responding to His will though He calls All Mankind, carnal Man that hates God from their creation is a false theology. Especially when saying "God is calling all incapacitated dead men to repent when they cannot, and He made them that way". God made Lazarus dead in sin, only when He calls they respond and come forth. Yet what about the Woman at the well? Was she not spiritually outcasted by Jews and Christ simply told her the Saviour that she heard about had truly come. It's very possible she was wanting to believe in a Messiah but had never been taught by anyone yet like the prostitute Rahab, she heard of God of Israel and feared unto belief. "God chooses specifically who comes to Himself." "Only God atoned for a select few." "The select few become the elect." It's a false religion calvinism, but it's taught by false teachers, hopefully many will see this and simply believe the truth.

[@LFJ10.]

Tulip is not a religion man It’s an acronym for 5 doctrines that the Bible teaches. It’s a refute of 5 other doctrines that some men came up with.

[@abashedsanctimony154]

@@LFJ10. It's a cultic religion. reformed theology was meant to deceive. There isn't a need to debate that God did not Atone for a limited number for a limited time until he condemns those He chose, that no one knows which ones that might be. Devil is in the details, and each reformer has their doctrines of devil's ready to deceive.

[@LFJ10.]

@@abashedsanctimony154 no you sir are wrong, debate will not carry you Read your letters the New Testament is easy to understand Keep reading God will show you

[@LFJ10.]

@@abashedsanctimony154 it’s reforming not reformed Still happening and wasn’t created to deceive weirdo

[@logannestman]

God can determine all things without being unjust

[@silveriorebelo2920]

except if you are mistaking God with a demonic figure, invented by your imagination - and a 'god' that would determine everything to the point of reducing spiritual creatures to automats, is not the Holy Trinity - it is a demon, agrandized to cosmic dimensions

[@livingforjesus8551]

Yes, he can, now prove that God has determined everything from scripture, but you can't, because of verses like Jeremiah 19:5, that says what those peopel did, didn't even come into the mind of God. How can you say God determined everything, when there are some things that God didn't even think about? You can't, and to say God determined that those people to do those evil things, does not gowith the character of God.

[@shmoney4053]

@@livingforjesus8551 Jerimaih 19:5 doesn't say that say that there are things that God doesn't know about, It is saying that unlike many of the canaanite deities, Yahweh never commanded human sacrifice, and for him to even think about commanding human sacrifice goes against his nature and thus that command never did come to His mind.

[@livingforjesus8551]

@@shmoney4053 Either way, it still disproves that God has determined everything.

[@claudecharest7018]

@@livingforjesus8551 john chap 1 ;12-13 and read ephesians chap 1

[@joemarisolmeron8798]

Amen Praise God 🙏🙏🙏

[@charitymontgomery4285]

Thank you so much for this. I’ve been really struggling with things since learning about what it would mean if Calvinism were true. I believe that Gods word is written for people to read and simply understand. And this is the simplest and clearest explanation of what this passage is describing by Paul. I had a deep sense of peace while hearing this.

[@kevinwells7080]

the puppet master is culpable.for the acts of his marionettes. it’s as simple as that. On calvinism (or, if you like, on divine determinism) God does not hate sin; He is the author of it. Of course this is simple blasphemy, well-intentioned (many blasphemies are such) or not. “but we believe in God’s wrath, and hell, etc! We believe God hates sin!” Yes, but not coherently. the interesting thing is that Calvinist insist the God’s will is not thwarted, but that God has to cause to be that which He hates.

[@dimains6011]

Calvinists: "The logical end of Arminianism is Pelagianism and salvation by human achievement." Arminians: "The logical end of Calvinism is Fatalism and Determinism."

[@pmh1nic]

I think his (Piper's) mentioning of faith harkens back to Eph. 2 where it says "by grace are you saved through faith, and that (faith) not of yourselves, it (faith) is the gift of God not of works less any man should boast". The mere possession of saving faith is a gift given by God.

[@davidcorzine7573]

A great book that addresses many questions is "The Death of Death In The Death of Christ" By John Owen (a Puritan 1616-1683). A google search will bring up a readable version of this book absolutely free. It's a long book and full of scripture. It is kind of old English writing so not everyone will be interested in reading it however it is a really good book with many objections answered.

[@davidenglish583]

I can't wait for WLC's Systematic Theology

[@animaticToshiue]

God's concern is His glory - the entirety of it. He sovereignly controlled everything and everyone to display His love. As you said about another matter, it's not either-or

[@deewitt3746]

Clear as a bell. Calvinism has no clapper. Thanks for the clarity.

[@tabasco7915]

I'm with you brother! Good video.

[@jamiejswagga]

Keep it up!

[@natemcfarland1176]

I mean Paul I’m Romans 9:11 does use the word πρόθεσις which means purpose. Does that change anything?

[@2001BornAgain]

I listened to a lot of pastors and profs who claim not to be Calvinists, but in their teaching and preaching Calvinism comes out. Even preachers like David Jeremiah succumb to Calvinism. I think there isn’t a lot of pushback because a lot of pastors and profs just believe what they want and don’t invest time to discover the truth. They’re too busy for that, sadly, especially knowing that a Piper Calvinist would call anyone a heretic for not believing in TULIP. That’s a serious charge to place on the church. So, it’s not so much about how good a job they do as opposed to us, it’s that they don’t know what they believe. And so maybe it’s better that way. Perhaps more will catch on then stand up. Blessings!

[@robertmontgomery5959]

Elected (chosen) to be a blessing or for a purpose.....Outstanding!

[@dontrushtohate]

Nothing outstanding.. There is no sense in election if its not for salvation to be a child of God.. Flowers introduced this idea of "noble cause" or "carry the word of God to the world" or some other peripheral thing.. Nothing else matters if the election isn't for the purpose of salvation.

[@robertmontgomery5959]

@A K Elect Do you not believe in whosoever will? Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[@All-shall-say-Jesus-is-Lord]

I read a Calvinist pastor on this passage. He did something Piper didn't clearly do; he made a distinction to avoid the faith and works contradiction that Piper appears to make. He said that Paul here is referring not to works of the Law, which he contrasts with faith previously in Romans, but is referring to all human works which includes faith. I'll paste the quote here: "Verse 11 goes on to say, "so that God's purpose according to His choice (or His election, His selection,) would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls." You see, God's purpose in election stands because it is literally, in the Greek text, "not (out) of works." He's talking about the source; God's choice, His election, doesn't find its source in our works. I think Paul clearly intends this phrase as a summary of verse 11 where it says they "had not done anything good or bad." And so he's not talking about just the works of the Law, keeping the Mosaic Law; he's talking about all human works. So he's saying here the source or the basis of God's choice is not human works of any kind. Rather, notice what he says, God's choice, and this is fascinating, was out of the one calling, literally is what it says, out of the one calling. Now that is remarkable because as we walked through Romans, you have seen Paul throughout this entire book contrast works with what? It's not by works, but by faith, and that's exactly what you would expect him to say here. If he had said that, however, he would've been saying that election was based on foreseen faith. But he doesn't say that. He intentionally changes his pattern. What he says is, "so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works, (not out of works), but because of Him who calls."" Can anyone help me with this? He's arguing that you can get this "all human works" instead of "works of the law" because of the way Paul says it in the Greek if I understand correctly. Thanks!

[@mycppwork8150]

dr craig forgot to drop the mike!

[@mycppwork8150]

@@johnm7011 who said i dont believe in election? it is clearly stated in the bible my brother, but it is election for service.

[@DBTAudio]

Awesome!!!!

[@mlcarl9008]

I think I have a better take, though I agree with much that Craig said (and nothing that Piper said). From the very beginning the Jews have made to big objections to the Gospel: 1. We don't need it because we are the elect, 2. If it was true then why haven't the vast majority of us accepted it. Paul seems to be answering these objections by first, defending God's right to elect the nation Israel (this was something his gentile readers needed to hear), but also his right to harden those who harden their hearts in unbelief even though, like Pharaoh, God has revealed himself to them. He will then go on to argue that though elect, the Jewish people have hardened their heart. As a result God has hardened them (this explains why the majority have not believed). He then argues that the gentiles are being invited in in place of the hardened Jewish people (though God is his faithfulness has preserved a remnant). He then warns the gentiles against the temptation to despise the Jews (a admonition the church of Rome did not heed), because they are still beloved and will be grafted in again at some future time.

[@SheepDog1974]

Why do you think God hardened Pharaoh's heart?

[@1974jrod]

Pipers problem is his definition of election and what he thinks it means given a set of circumstances.

[@sanchezsanchez2700]

Hello Doctor Flower. Do you have that book in Spanish? Unfortunately everything we have in Spanish is coming from McArthur, Piper, Pastor Nunes, Paul Washer and Sugel Michelin they are great man’s of God but I am disagree on the unconditional election and that Doctrine is getting big bc we don’t have anything else.

[@folktheologytransition3756]

Brilliant!!

[@fiftycalguru]

I don’t think I have heard a good answer yet to “what is the point of evangelism, or prayer for that matter, under Calvinism ?” Can someone help me out?

[@Davisme1]

Their answer is that, nobody knows who are elect, so preach to all, gospel is the means by which elect comes to christ.

[@peterfox7663]

As to prayer, I saw an answer to that by RC Sproul, I think, that said prayer is to help our own minds.

[@AlaskanMissions]

@@Davisme1 So by not evangelizing an elect person they would be lost? If that is true then election is not true.

[@abashedsanctimony154]

@@peterfox7663 Self inflatable dogma is profitable to a calvinist. I have to agree RC Sproul didn't know that prayer is for relationship and communion with the Father. 'Communion' sacrament is for our benefit. Prayer and actually communicating with God is what prayer is for. Glad you brought that up.

[@abashedsanctimony154]

@@AlaskanMissions That makes no sense. Witnessing and spreading the Gospel proves that election is true. God elects servants. Some *self-elect* themselves. I will grant calvinists are self-elected.

[@drittenberry1]

Thank you ✝️🇺🇸

[@animaticToshiue]

How can this be a fair comparison when it was 2 minutes of the entire exposition made by Piper? 😱 Plus all your interruption and comments hindering viewers from listening straight to what he was saying instead of what you think he was saying? I don't get it. I thought we all value context here.

[@AtueyiEkeneEthan]

Brother I thought I was going to hear John piper and william craig speak on romans 9 and not you interrupting all the time

[@stephenatkinson480]

Where can I buy the book the potters promise brother

[@jeff5163]

A link is in the show notes.

[@sheilasmith7779]

When we understand WHY Reformers need to make faith a work, it makes sense why faith as a work became the teaching. It was based on Augustines fear of Christians boasting or crediting their salvation to themselves. So instead of addressing a legitimate concern and offering the proper solution, Augustine made up an unscriptural philosophy.

[@joshuacarrero5360]

The fact that Paul mentions the idea of us wrongly questioning God and his ways proves that we have some kind of will, choice or mind of our own. If we didn't and that kind of thing wasn't possible, Paul wouldn't even be able to think of it or tell us we shouldn't do it.

[@SheepDog1974]

Precisely

[@TheGreaser9273]

The importance of separating 'The promise' (Genesis 15) from the 'Covenant' (Genesis 17) can not be over stated when reading Romans. The 'promise" is for all who have faith and the 'covenant' is for the blood line of Christ.

[@JungleJargon]

What does that have to do with the price of gold in Scandinavia?

[@Phony-baloney8]

I've struggled with this for a long time. I often wonder why some believe and others don't. Why do some have faith and others don't? And, is faith truly a work? Please help!!

[@JahNissi-producciones777]

Dr. Flowers, I would appreciate it if you could enable automatic translation. Greetings from Chile

[@irrelevantideology9640]

If you are looking to make sense out of incomprehensible texts in the word, how do you deal with the Trinity?

[@abashedsanctimony154]

Trinity is provable, not sure what you mean. Isaiah is full of verses ruining the monodeistic religions. Son of God: Psalm 110. God is a Monotheistic Godhead. Micah 5:2 etc. The *Kitvei haKodesh* of the Tanakh and prophets means the writings of the Prophets of God, of the Old testament. They will be fulfilled by One, the ' *Righteous One* '; that the demons mentioned in the Synoptic Gospels. Luke 4:34Go away! Why are you interfering with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are-the *Holy One* [Son] of God!” They are not synoptic in that they are the exact same witnessing of the events. But Disciples of the same *Son of Man* (Messiah) that would fulfill the requirements for the prophecied Final Prophet, High Priest, and High King. You see Christ is a trinity of titles all by Himself. But He also fulfilled the Final Sacrifice, as the Lamb Of God. There is no man that can be a Sacrifice for all of Human kind, and take the sins of the fallen angels and cast them into hell. Then, redeem Mankind by taking all their sins, and giving back a purified universe to God rebuild and wipe the sin from the world/Man. Demons are not "atoned for" sin-wise , but they are taken control of by having their authority taken. God gave satan rule of the world, he is god of earth right now. Calvinist's will never admit this, muslims will not admit this..but Satan has power to control the darkness. God does not control what comes from evil and sin, John 19:11, He did not Author sin (I Cor 14:33, Jam 1:13). He takes control of the products of sin and darkness from above. He also causes sin to affect others that sin, from above. It's odd, but Christ paid the debt for all of it. I John 3:4. Christ did not sin, because He didn't Author sin. Only God can do this.

[@kurtl8660]

I find it interesting that verse 17 & 18 "he hardens who he wills" was not brought up.

[@dedios03]

it’s in the same vane of thought. That is that it’s God’s choice in the end. He has chosen the vehicle of grace through faith upon ALL who believe not as the jews thought just because they were Jews. so he hardened them because they didn’t have faith. Mans free will choice will not stop Gods plan and election rather His sovereignty will show itself despite what people choose so He has no need to invalidate free will.

[@dedios03]

....also, God chooses to harden but we don’t know how many opportunities were given to have a different choice. In the end it is a human choice to either obey or disobey. You disobey ultimately you gather for yourself hardening and judgment if you obey you will reap blessings and thus be a vessel of honer. Free will doesn’t meen “choose anything” but a set of choices and consequences set forth by the creator thus His sovereignty is not affected and free will is not affected. Deut 30:19 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

[@dedios03]

and also they did discuss 17,18 19:59

[@thomasremmers8250]

Why is the sower text never used on who GOD chooses ?

[@redoctober2026]

What is the function or utility of faith under Calvinism if believers are pre elected before the creation?

[@SSNBN777]

Yes. Jesus said pick up our crosses and follow Him. James 2:21-24 NASB95 *_Was not Abraham our father justified by works_* when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? [22] You see that *_faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;_* [23] and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, And *_ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,"_* and he was called the friend of God. [24] You see that *_a man is justified by works and not by faith alone._*

[@everytingYay]

@@SSNBN777 Man is saved by faith alone, and justified by works. Faith is the drinking from a glass (analogy), works is swallowing. None of those quenches your thirst, but the water alone. By faith, we receive God's salvation in Christ. Our works is the evidence of the faith in Christ. None of those saves. Not the faith, and not the works, but Christ alone saves. These realities demonstrate how we are save, or how to we receive salvation (by faith), and how do we know that our faith is real (by works), but Christ alone is the savior, and not faith and works in on themselves

[@adrianoribeiro1052]

Por favor traduz este video em português !

[@adrianoribeiro1052]

Gostaria muito ouvir este vídeo em português.

[@nathanaelbarrie214]

I don't watch John piper anymore long before I saw this video...John Piper is not a very good teacher in my opinion. 🙏

[@renierbezuidenhout7861]

Or you're just not a very good student.

[@KISStheSON...]

If God says that he chose Jacob before doing anything good or bad...doesn't that imply that we can do good, but we can't do good enough to be declared righteous? However, we are then taught that we can be declared righteous by declaring the righteousness of Christ Jesus, which is very good news because without Christ I would be hopeless...I DECLARE the righteousness of Christ and for this, I can't boast because I am clothed in another man's righteousness! Romans 3 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

[@keithbossard9022]

You often hear verse 23 without the word "For" all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The word "For" explains the previous verses.

[@keithbossard9022]

And the following verses.

[@stacy2point0]

@Johno no it does not. Mr Flowers is wrong & constantly misrepresents calvinistic beliefs

[@pmpcvii]

What is people’s problem with Calvinism? I see too many of these videos pop up. Most people don’t have a problem with once saved always saved, or even justification by faith alone, it always seems to be the doctrine of election, am I correct? If so, what is the problem people have with election?

[@jass0033]

Calvinism is unbiblical. God doesn’t send people to hell arbitrarily the way piper and McCarthy teach.

[@CodacMoments]

It challenges their understanding of who God is. It's also a false humility, often, like this... no, God didn't choose me. Who am I? Then they are left with only being able to say that they chose God, which, according to the Bible, is not true. And no one wants to admit that since the Fall, there truly is no such thing as free will because all are under the curse and sin permeates every decision made, thus negating free will because all have sinned (Isaiah, quoted by Paul in Romans 3:23). I will say molinism is interesting, but does nothing but push the problem back a step further. For if God creates the world that He foresaw, then that world is bound by fate, not free will, because no one will choose anything other than what God foresaw them choosing. It's inescapable, but some people find comfort in the thought that it was achieved through their free will. A level of arrogance, my free will cannot be trumped by God, even though I'm corrupt with sin and unrighteousness. I'm not a Calvinist (not a Presbyterian, but a Baptist, and have my own struggles with the so-called five points of Calvinsim, but I do agree with much of what is said on that side of the debate. I don't hold to double predestination because that's an unnecessary position - all are destined to hell no matter what. I'm more Calvinistic than I am anything else. But I'm open to being dialogued with and discussing God's Word to come to a place of better understanding of my King.

[@pmpcvii]

This was such an awesome response, brother. I appreciate the thought that went into it. I agree with much of what you said and I appreciate the perspective. What you said about all being destined for destruction is right on, although I myself do believe in double point predestination mainly because of Romans 9 "And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? 23 And what if He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory- 24 on us, the ones He also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles". It's definitely a compelling thought though, the way you put it. I go to a Southern Baptist church, our pastor really breaks the Bible down well, thank God. I'm amazed actually at the preaching because He often doesn't preach what I expect to hear. I often hear preachers preach the same thing almost as if they heard it from someone else and it sounds repetitive. If I had to pinpoint my beliefs, I'd say I think I lean towards soft determinism in the aspect of predestination. I find much more comfort in knowing my salvation is secured in Christ, although I struggle at times to feel I matter to Him or like He is going to help me, but I know do see and know He loves me, and I find comfort in that and I give God the glory for that. I'll be honest, I'm just tired of these videos popping up on my feed. 10 videos about how people hate Calvinism and the comments section is something else. If someone was being led astray I'd be much more convinced by someone reproving a fellow brother in love instead of them calling him a heretic, ridiculing him and condemning him to hell (as I've seen). Jesus Himself said people will know we are His disciples by the way we love one another. How about we stop attacking each other and just preach the gospel from time to time, you know? (That's how I feel anyway) Tired of these videos. Also, people can say faith is not a work if they want to, but scripture is clear that it is a gift from God. You can't exercise a gift until it's been given, so I agree with you that I could have in no way chosen God, if not for His Holy Spirit leading me to Jesus.

[@kevincrockett6523]

Did we all die in Adam? Isn't he the "federal" head of human kind? If we are all born dead spiritually, what do dead men do? How do we believe? Can the "natural" man discern "spiritual things? Who raises the dead? Can they awaken themselves?

[@Soteriology101]

Believe so as to be given new life. See John 20:31 or John 5:40

[@kennethmagnus5388]

As you work to reconcile Piper's position as it relates to God's choosing, please consider how God described Himself to Moses: Exodus 33:19 "And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy." What does this say about those who God will not be gracious or show mercy to?

[@theDrewzy1]

Wouldn't John Pipers ministry name indicate he believes one could, on their own volition, desire God? If I'm desiring God then it's me that is desiring God, but if God makes me desire Him it is no longer me desiring Him, but Him desiring Him.

[@jayahladas692]

If "No free will to choose" were true then the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment would be a joke. Think on these things:. how could souls be judged and held responsible if they were predestined without free will? Is that just?.

[@daro8593]

Craig has BA, MA, and PhD in theology

[@leadinged]

and he believes the universe is 14B years old and seems like he has no problem with the evolution view.

[@bettymofokeng3404]

I agree with you Dr, wrong is wrong it doesn't who brought it on the table

[@tedspeer6445]

Dr. Flowers, I appreciate your stand for the truth, and all the work that you do. I do have a question for you concerning your "respect" for men like John Piper. The doctrine of these reform theologians is the enemy of the truth. I understand respecting everyone as a human being, but why do you respect them as ministers?

[@everytingYay]

Because there fruits (most reformed preachers) is consistent with that of true faith, like John Mac, Steve Lawson, Voddie, etc... Furthermore, there messages (preaching) over the years have been consistent with scripture, and there warnings have proved reliable (like John Warning against charismatic preachers since the 1970's). Lastly, they have been a voice of truth and reason in their preaching ministries amongst the likes of Joel Osteen and Kenneth Copeland. Of course their will be one or two bad fruits and imposters, but these men preach the truth of God bravely and courageous without fear! Dr. Flowers has turned most of you against them for being Calvinistic, denying you rich contents and materials for spiritual growth. My thinking is, Dr. Flowers acknowledges this and usually makes short disclaimers in the beginning of his presentations (oh I love Dr. MacArthur and respect his ministry bla bla bla), yet, as you evidenced by your comment and others like you, has forstered deep hatred for them. Why? He is forced to do that because he knows the truth. If he goes full blown against them like he has turned you, he'll virtually be forced to confront his error and provide an alternative to their message, which is impossible. Therefore, he has to contend that Calvinism is false but Calvinist preachers are good, and encourage you to ignore just the bad part (Calvinism) and embrace the rest, yet these preachers present the gospel in totality. So, he will call them brothers while for you, you'll hate them and other reformers proving that he might not be fully convinced of his positions

[@hgbitner8486]

Romans 9:19-24 answers the problem of how God can be just according to Calvinism. The same questions you are asking are the same questions Paul answers. “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

[@DrDemolition97]

You're assuming the objection that Paul is answering in those verses is a modern non-calvinist Christian arguing against TULIP, not a 1st century Jew asking Paul why their status as the biological offspring of Abraham doesn't immediately make them children of the promise.

[@StephenBeatty-bz6sn]

Something very important about Romans 9 that I haven't heard pointed out. Why does Paul spend the first few verses willing to damn his own soul if only his people would repent and believe? Isn't that kind of thinking antithetical to the idea that everything is fated, preordained and in God's hands? What's he complaining about then?

[@jolookstothestars6358]

If I'm not a calvinist nor a Armeniansist(spelling?) what would I call myself?

[@carsonfox6]

Christian

[@Hambone3773]

Perhaps an Open Theist? Perhaps a Molinist?

[@LouisaWatt]

I have had Calvinists explicitly say that faith is a work

[@PastorBillwillard2147]

Higher IQ does have an advantage Dr. Flowers. I dont know why we play that down. William Lane Craig prooves that in this debate. IQ is directly linked to understanding and explaining the text.

[@teddybear6742]

Dr. Flowers did not distinguish two type of works: man's moral work to earn salvation - Paul means not by this kind of work; work of faith is the work we do after salvation derived/ founded on the faith - the good work in James, also John Piper refers to. Keep strong faith, stand in faith is work of faith, there for is work, but not the moral work. Therefore, it is nothing wrong for pastor John Pipe to say the election is not based on faith because faith is the result of the election, not the cause of the election.

[@debybennett630]

Faith is death without works. They work in tandem.

[@paultrosclair1775]

John Piper also talks as if this is talking about Esau being eternally condemned. This has nothing to do with Esau's salvation or lack thereof. This is talking about Esau and Jacob in terms of being chosen for a purpose in time in the history of Israel.

[@anthonyarod1]

So if Craig is right then my question is, are people, because of their free will, are they choosing to say yes to God while in the flesh or is the spirit in them when they say yes?

[@zacharystarrin7556]

When the holy spirit knocks on the doors of our hearts, so to speak, we should then choose to open it through faith. I think God drawing people is not this forced total regeneration or transformation prior to accepting the Gospel, because we do not have salvation or the holy spirit indwelt in us until we believe. Otherwise, the gospel truly isn't the power unto salvation for whosoever believes. We all know if Christ be lifted up, he shall draw all men unto him. God chooses us, but we also choose Him through faith in our response. I'm just apt to ask why cant we just accept there exists a paradoxical relationship between God's Sovereignty and personal responsibility (ability to respond)? The Bible speaks to both, and we should not find it odd to think God's ways and thoughts are beyond our own understanding and full comprehension. This is why if anything we should have the highest degree scrutiny of any of the man made systematic theological frames that aren't inspired by God but are simply the opinions and interpretations of men. In other words, it can actually blind us if we cling to closely to any one of these frames. For example, let's say I put on blue shaded glasses, everything will appear blue to me even though it may or may not be the true color of what I'm looking at. If I put on the Calvinist colored glasses, its lens only allows me to see the bible through the light of Calvinism. It doesn't have to be Calvinism, just insert another theological frame here. It creates what is known as the thrown frame bias. You will only see what is suggested by the frame, right wrong or otherwise, while ignoring the other claims it makes. Only the holy spirit knows the mind of God so I pray He would help us to know His Word and understand it in the light of his Truth alone with the bible as a whole considered. Haha I'm just glad God saved me and desired to have this relationship with me in the first place.

[@jamesdonnelly1638]

It's rich how proud they are of their flawed logic.

[@OneHighwayWalker]

The "20- and 30-somethings" need to STUDY the Bible and not listen to other's interpretations. A person needs to know the Bible cover to cover first; then they can search the Scriptures to see if these things be so. WLC also seems to be talking about salvation when the text is discussing the election of the lineage of the seed. Also, God knows everything, so He knew Esau wasn't interested in the inheritance, and Jacob was. We finite beings can't fully understand our infinite, all-knowing Creator, but one day we will know as we have been known.

[@a-aron6724]

Doesn't mean God caused Esau to not appreciate the things of God. Same with Jacob. They chose those things

[@a-aron6724]

And another thing the word hate used in Romans 9 here doesn't mean have malice towards it means to put 2nd

[@OneHighwayWalker]

@@a-aron6724 Agreed

[@sethrankin5319]

Agreed if Calvinist's studied the bible instead of Calvin's interpretation of the bible then we wouldn't be in this mess.

[@thomasremmers8250]

Free gift came upon all men

[@MrJayb76]

Not all those who cry Lord Lord will enter into the Kingdom of heaven but those who follow the will of my Father. If that verse doesn't destroy sola fide and affirm salvation through obedience I don't know what does.

[@Tazeran]

And if you read on you'll find that the will of the Father is that we would believe on His Son and have everlasting life. Those crying Lord Lord had just presented their own works as justification and not the finished work of Jesus.

[@MrJayb76]

@Tazeran find me a single church father that interprets that verse like you just did now. And when Jesus said feed the hungry and love your enemies was that optional or mandatory?

[@jw2442]

I totally disagree with John Piper, but I can never dislike him as a person - he is so sweet and gentle. I bad mouthed him once for giving a bad "counsel" to a girl having a crisis with her faith, but that was wrong for me to do that.

[@wicomms]

He is so nauseating....then I found out that all his kids are raging atheists then I knew that they could see the BS at home....I heard piper many many years ago and felt something so wrong about him... And John McArthur too...

[@carsonfox6]

@@wicomms are you Christian?

[@arkrainflood]

@@wicomms he represents himself in PUBLIC as a nice, caring, learned authority figure. BUT, after being introduced as a speaker at a local church by one of the pastors who was of a short stature, piper hugged the pastor around the waist and lifted him off the ground while smiling and laughing. the pastor was embarrassed and taken aback. HOW DISRESPECTFUL.....a pastor, in a church, in front of christians, and just before he was to preach. to me, this was a revealing of piper's cruel and condescending character, and probably a confirmation of the true (mostly hidden) nature of ALL calvinists. they are all hypocrites. on one hand asserting that they are correct and all noncalvinists are stupid, and on the other hand infiltrating noncalvinist churches to usurp the leadership and indoctrinating those sheeple into TULIP.......calvinists: God is in meticulous control, but we have to help Him out"

[@wicomms]

@@arkrainflood totally agree

[@Bible33AD]

So sweet and gentle that he teaches women who are abused should put up with it in favor of male headship. Yeah... that's what Christ wants.

[@irrelevantideology9640]

We can not completely understand the workings of a being outside of our dimensional framework.

[@John-Christchurch-NZ]

Interestingly Reprobate in Greek means to be judged as failing the test. How can that be ordained?

[@rocketman1090]

Non Calvinist preachers would serve the Christian body well by teaching Roman's 9-11 instead of either avoiding those chapters or teaching thematic sermons on anxiety, success, money etc.