Rotax Stops 582 Production - Ultralights Impact & Engine Options

Rotax stops production of the 2-stroke 582UL engine. What does this mean for ultralight and light sport aviation? Can the 912UL really replace the 582? What are the best options with the 582 no longer available?
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[@ThomasMarrow]

Loved this! Well done Jaco

[@LetsGoAviate]

Happy to hear, thanks Thomas!

[@LetsGoAviate]

What are your thoughts on Rotax stopping production of the 582? And which engine would you replace a 582 with? Leave a comment and let me know!

[@LoneWolfPrecisionLLC]

Yamaha phaser. 4 stroke. Nearly the same weight and a touch more power

[@LetsGoAviate]

@@LoneWolfPrecisionLLC Yeah seems like a great engine

[@stevecarlisle3323]

@@LetsGoAviate if you want the power to weight of a 2 stroke, then the Arctic Cat (Suzuki B80) would be my choice, at 165HP

[@tomvancil8213]

Yamaha Phazer what’s not to like, more power, better fuel consumption, about the same weight give or take just a little. Not to mention Yamaha’s stellar reputation for incredible engines ( I. E Toyota / Lexus ). Several companies are starting to get on board with this now and making it an easier transition for UL applications. Would love to see a video with each going head to head (overall cost, TBO comparison & so on 😊 )

[@reinerressel975]

Car or motorcycle 4 stroke engines are not suitable to run with constant pwr !! That’s why aircraft engines have special piston rings to let a little oil up to lubricate the piston . The fuel consumption is 0 to max 20 % better on 4 strokes . The lack of reliability of 2 strokes are 99 % from bad Fuel and Colling systems design , follow the manufacturer and you will have a trouble free 2 stroke engine .

[@stevecarlisle3323]

@@reinerressel975 constant power in aircraft is only needed at takeoff, for a few minutes. The 4 stroke Yamaha snowmobile engines are literally taking off in appeal. Only one or 2 suppliers of PSRU.

[@reinerressel975]

@@stevecarlisle3323 Let the 4 str. run for 2h with 65-75 % without lifting the throttle to suck a little oil up , your engine is never be the same then before ! Even a F 1 engine is not capable to run a longer time without lifting the throttle . Car engines are build for max 25 % constant PWR .

[@stevecarlisle3323]

@@tomvancil8213 What are you comparing the Phazer too 😉🇨🇦

[@stevecarlisle3323]

@@reinerressel975 Well we are Not talking automotive engines, but snowmobile engines, and you really need to watch how snowmobiles are abused, especially by the younger riders 😉🇨🇦

[@tCCZebra70]

Im running Hirth F23 50hp electronic fuel injection reduction belt gear and exhaust. Runs 78 lbs and you can get it for between $5000-6500. I love Rotax 912, but too heavy for a US Part 103 Ultralight. If Rotax comes out with a lightweight 4-stroke for a reasonable cost, I’d definitely be interested. Sad to see the 582 go.

[@jesusvazquez708]

Where can i find it? Hirth f23

[@jesusvazquez708]

And in what do you use it in?

[@normdickson2438]

The new 600 cc twin would make a much better candidate smaller lighter and put out 125 hp and it’s snowmobile and set up to fly. It would make a great motor. I’ve got one sitting in a brand new sled sitting in my garage and we barely get any snow, my wife will kill me, but I plan on yanking that motor motor out and building a plane

[@LetsGoAviate]

Don't tell her until it's done 😆 Which engine is that, the 600cc motor you are reffering to?

[@stevecarlisle3323]

@@normdickson2438 depending on the model, between 60HP and 85HP. I don't see any specs with 125HP, and set up to fly, not a chance 🤔

[@mjyan3599]

There is a way to bring back the powerful 2-stroke, that is by make a hybrid of it with the venerable 4-stroke - to be a D-stroke cycle (as described below). High Efficiency Low Emission Hybrid ICE: By simply splitting the ring-section from its skirt - to be operated by a (valvetrain-like) piston-train to pump the gases during the intake and exhaust strokes, and combined with the skirt to complete the compression and power strokes - can achieve the hybrid. Which completes the 4 strokes, different in both displacements and periods, in every engine revolution - called D-cycle (Differential-stroke cycle) - a hybrid of the 2-/4-cycles. The D-cycle’s controllable exhaust strokes can be shortened to retain high amount of burnt gases to control the ignition initiation and combustion rates for the HCCI/LTC (homogeneously charged compression ignition with low temperature combustion). When combined with the (gasoline type) stoichiometric air/fuel ratio intake under high-compression ignition, it is the diesel-gasoline hybrid with the benefits of both - called SCCI/LTC-BGR (Burnt Gas Retention). The resultant hybrid can have Atkinson-cycle strokes, whole engine working at lower rpm, fewer cylinders with lighter engine support and vehicle styling, weight and efficiency gains, and etc. Diesel engines can avoid soot and NOx formation saving expensive after treatments with lower noises. Gasoline engines can enjoy diesel type (within structural limitations) efficiency (test shown >20%) and torque gains ( >2.5x).

[@JamesSmith-op7yc]

So... "Rotax Engineering Team" can't design a small, efficient four stroke powerplant. The 912 is 4 cylinder overhead valve engine that still needs RPM reduction. Why? Why not? Maybe lightweight engines cost more? Rotax could own FAA part 103. with a light 30/40 hp torque based plant. No propeller speed reduction, exellent endurance/ low fuel consumption, extended airtime/range. Imagine experimental aviation for everyone who doesn't have $90K+ in their pockets for a 172 or a Cherokee + tie-down/ hanger/ tbo costs/insurance/maintainence by someone else? No fun. I've been a pilot since I was a kid. I never cared about hours logged. I love to fly, Just offering an observation. James Smith from Michigan. Thanks for sharing.

[@LetsGoAviate]

You've touched on many points here, I'll try to offer a different perspective. Rotax CAN design a small efficient four stroke engines, but why would they? Every new aviation engine Rotax have put on the market has been higher HP than their previously released engine. Rotax clearly hasn't had their eyes set on the part 103 world for quite some time. This is likely a strategic market decision, but also keep in mind, the one thing Rotax isn't known for is affordable engines. If they were to design an engine in your HP range, it would be the most expensive engine in that power range, and it's also the segment of the market where there isn't very much money to spend. Hence the decision to move out of that market many years ago. My opinion is that Rotax engines doesn't NEED RPM reduction, it's by design. Having a gear reduction ratio of 2.43 increases torque to the propeller by 2.43 times. Ever seen how much bigger prop a Rotax 912UL 80hp can spin than a Jabiru 80hp? Besides, to make high HP from small lightweight engines, you need high RPM. That's just physics and can't get around it without affecting reliability. Thanks for the comment!

[@vg23air]

thats why austria split off and made the quattro

[@brgsstm]

I think your missing something here…. Rotax have other 4 strokes used in PWC’s and Ski mobiles. I would imagine we will see some aero versions of those, like the Rotax 900 HO ACE

[@LetsGoAviate]

Oh yeah I'm sure I'm missing lots 😁. Admittedly I don't really have much awareness about Rotax's own non-aviation engines. Thanks for the comment, will check it out.

[@brgsstm]

@@LetsGoAviate I have the ACE 900 in a jet ski. 90hp and a great little engine. They do a ACE 600 too at 60hp. I would imagine they would make great small 4 stroke aero engines.

[@LetsGoAviate]

Could be interesting! Will need an adapter manufactured to fit a gearbox, but that can be done like it was for the Phazer.

[@JamesSmith-op7yc]

I hope to see four-stroke, lightweight engines being built by Rotax Engineering or other companies. I love experimental aircraft. 60yrs and a private pilot. FAA part 103 is cool-dogs! A four-stroke, lightweight powerplant? A motorcycle engine. Could be key to the development of new lightweight aircraft powerplants..

[@stevecarlisle3323]

@@LetsGoAviate the gearbox from Skytrax has short lived sprag clutch. The older design from Mohawk Aero uses the Rotax C gearbox with the rubber idolaters, maybe a better investment. Lots of development time and money to get a PSRU on a particular engine, and you better pick the right one, to sell enough.😉🇨🇦

[@Aviator168]

For ultralights, 2 Bailey V5 4-stroke engines will give you 41hp at a combined weight of 34kg (about 75#). But it will cost you.

[@djal1030]

What about the Simoni Victor 2 plus or super? lot more power in the same foot print.

[@LetsGoAviate]

I learned about the Simonini V2 more recently, seems great

[@leneanderthalien]

What i read is this engines are powerfull but unreliable...

[@tomvancil8213]

It looks like both Yamaha & ShinMaywa conducted an early stage test flight in what appears to be a Kitfox style 2 person aircraft. Yamaha was using their liquid cooled 4 stroke 499cc 2 cylinder engine News release was from Sept 26th of last year 2022 in Japan. Test was successful it says and both companies will continue on with joint research 🙌👍😁👊👏

[@thomashartenstein84]

did you consider Wankel LCR-814 .... 70 HP, approx. same weight as 582

[@LetsGoAviate]

Never heard of it before. Sounds interesting, I'll look into it! Thanks

[@joepdeboer8724]

Heard they started again at least for a short time

[@LetsGoAviate]

That would be interesting! Haven't been able to find any info regarding that on the internet yet though.

[@mgmrateconfirmation8404]

What do you think of Viking engines ??? Car conversions. Out of Florida.

[@LetsGoAviate]

Not sure. Do they source the engine and convert for aviation use, or does one need to supply it to them to convert? I'm a bit ignorant on these engines to be honest

[@mgmrateconfirmation8404]

@@LetsGoAviate I understand. Thanx for responding. You may wanna google them. based out of Florida. Supposedly those motors are cheaper & run fine, but NOT certified.

[@roberttammerawitchey4652]

He has a source that capitalizes on Japan's extremely tough automotive inspections. Used cars depreciate REALLY fast.. just because of this rule. So, they are either exported, or salvaged and exported as parts. There's simply more money in a used car in Japan if it's exported. Chances are, a mild front end crash in Japan probably get the whole car parted out.. even if it's less than 2 yrs. old. It's easy to find low miled (gas price, and LONG road trips in a very small country) makes it rare to find an engine with more than 3000-5000 miles per year. From there, he 'converts' them for mounting in an airframe- lighter manifolds, wiring harnesses, coolant plumbing, oiling, engine mounts...and adds a PSRU. @@LetsGoAviate

[@flexairz]

@@mgmrateconfirmation8404 Certified means paying for a lot of paperwork and getting the same engine.

[@sethenewman4309]

I heard Kawasaki snow mobile engines make great conversions

[@LetsGoAviate]

The 400+ hp like the one in Toby Ashley's Carbon Cub?

[@429thunderjet2]

That's not a snowmobile engine. It is a jet ski/ personal watercraft engine.

[@ledzyz]

I think you had too many cutaways in this edit, a well placed one is entertaining, too many comes across cheesy. Thanks for the motor info and options. I think I would go for Yamaha, Japanese quality to replace the Austrian reliability.

[@LetsGoAviate]

😂 Gotta keep it light. Noted.

[@coeniethomas1887]

Can not agree. It is a very personal thing. I had no issue with this edit. And just a note. “week” is a Monday to Sunday. You wanted to use "weak" 😊

[@ledzyz]

@@coeniethomas1887 I agree with you that it is a personal thing, that's why it's good for Jaco to get all kinds of feedback. There may be as many people who enjoy them as those that don't, if everyone kept mute he would gain no feedback and not be able to set his direction to grow or retain his subscribers. If that's what he's concerned about, if not, I'm just noise to the algorithm. Noted, thanks. 'week' was an autocorrect on 'well', missed it thanks.

[@embededfabrication4482]

I would run the 583 on my skidoo mxz 583 over sierra mountain passes in snow storms, in the middle of the night, by myself, for fun all the time. Not once did she ever quit on me. I think that is a far more dangerous thing to do than fly an ultralight with a 583 where you have the chance to do an engine out landing at low speed in many places.

[@LetsGoAviate]

Seems like the 582 and 583 differs in quite a few ways. Don't think I've heard of a 583 that was converted for use in aircraft, but I'm sure someone has done it.

[@embededfabrication4482]

@@LetsGoAviate there are a lot of them in ultralights, they work just fine, there's a guy in Arizona does them. The only difference is the ignition and the 582 has the crappy ducatti when the 583 has nippo. ignition systems don't fail

[@LetsGoAviate]

Cool thanks for letting me know!

[@shifty1927]

Yup 583s super reliable ran them for years in my honda oddyseys before I moved up to 670s and 670HOs.

[@MartinSage]

HKS 700E is a good replacement made in Japan

[@LetsGoAviate]

Can't find anyone selling these new. Maybe I didn't search hard enough, but some websites claiming they are no longer in production as of 2019.

[@vg23air]

they are long gone not coming back

[@battleaxefabandmachine]

Seadoo from the 90's has comparable Rotax engines and they are plentiful and cheap. I have one in the field with a 587

[@stevecarlisle3323]

@@battleaxefabandmachine No water pump on PwC engines ! Sea water cooling.

[@battleaxefabandmachine]

@@stevecarlisle3323 I'm sure that I remedy can be found.

[@reinerressel975]

Especially when start or stop , it sounds like a broken crankshaft .

[@embededfabrication4482]

Still old skidoo engines around, new ignition parts available

[@wiley0714]

Viking, A honda Fit engine for aviation...

[@patstrzeszewski3240]

I love the sound of rotax engines

[@tedheath9018]

Jabaru

[@leneanderthalien]

Jabiru have low reliability and because they are direct drive= small/ high RPM propeller (bad for ultralights)

[@fredcailloux2526]

2 words....Yamaha Phazer.

[@vg23air]

all 2 strokes are going away in all western nations due to emissions, thats why rotax dropped it and the people in austria with rotax engineering experience have branched off to small 4 strokes like the quattro

[@stevecarlisle3323]

Not applicable to experimental, you can run any engine you want. Snowmobile engines are available in 2 stroke and four strake, way bigger market than aviation.

[@vg23air]

@@stevecarlisle3323 and all 2 strokes are going away, ALL OF THEM big and small

[@stevecarlisle3323]

@@vg23air Thanks for your input, but it's not true, they are still being manufactured, answer sold. Check out Skidoo, Arctic Cat and polaris

[@stevecarlisle3323]

@@vg23air You are totally WRONG 😂 Skidoo, Polaris and Arctic Cat, all have 850 2 strokes in there ine up, Siminmi and Hirth manufacture aviation engines, as well as a few others produced in China for aviation. You should really do some research before you BLEEP OFF 😊🇨🇦

[@vg23air]

@@stevecarlisle3323 omg i am SOOO tired of the ignorant. ALL TWO STROKES ARE GOING AWAY CLIMATE ACCORD AGREEMENTS. Got it ????? Rotax has dropped 2 stroke due to the ACCORDS, boats are no longer 2 stroke due to the ACCORDS. just cause a few make them does not mean they are not GOING AWAY FOR GOOD. anything over 351cc is outta here