ROTOR INSpider Cycling Power Meter: Details // Install // Data Review

[@Hardcaslte]

Dude every time I find out about a power meter I go straight to KZbin and you've done an indepth analysis of it. I love you for this.

[@robbchastain3036]

Man, if you don't know, Shane, you can be sure that I don't know, either. We're looking for you to know, we're needing for you to know. Maybe a long chat with Von on the endless highway will sort things out. And thanks, Shane, for all of these examinations and explanations.

[@markstone722]

Great vid. Even though I don't have a power meter it's good to see that Shane doesn't take what is being told and checks and rechecks. 👍👍

[@gplama]

Update November 10th 2020. - Still no follow up from Rotor. Update September 26th 2020. - Rotor have had the returned unit for a few months. - No further follow up from them at this point. Update: June 20th 2020. - Rotor are currently investigating the data/results from the outdoor tests. Stay tuned for updates on this! - The chainrings were installed using a torque wrench. - Cadence readings were still matching the other meters 1:1 when the power was off. - The unit would swing when in the saddle (wasn't an out of the saddle issue). - There was no extreme cross-chaining in the tests. (although this is something more to test). - Vibration is a possible reason things screw up outside vs inside. The road surface was uniform, so there's nothing I can easily identify happening there. - The swings were too fast for any temperature related issues, although who knows, I don't have access to any lower level diagnostics on the unit to know. - The INSpider unit doesn't do Torque Effectiveness & Pedal Smoothness. *My bad there. I assumed it did given the Torque 360 support.

[@kimchijun1209e0]

any new updates?

[@gplama]

@@kimchijun1209e0 I'm in communication with Rotor regarding the data. More updates soon!

[@yogatriathlete]

Hi Shane, did you have any issues installing the Dura-Ace chainrings? or did they just bolt right on without issues? I'm asking because my local distributor is telling me that there's no solution to using Shimano rings with Rotor power meters

[@thibault359]

@@yogatriathlete Hi there, I'm using the Ultegra chainrings with the Inspider and it fits perfectly don't worry.

[@matteomoltoni]

@@gplama Any news from Rotor?

[@MarkHenk]

If indoor values are equal (constant ambient temperature). And riding outdoor will give deviation, this can be due to a time delay in the temperature compensation of the Rotor INSpider power meter. Maybe the temperature sensor is embedded inside the waterproof housing. This gives a time delay in temperature measurement. And therefore a delay in the corrected power values.

[@BrendonCamm]

Very weird about those consistent inconsistencies... I've been sitting here trying to think of causes and it's driving me nuts so I can't even think of how insane it's driving you Shane hahah. Have a great day man!

[@damFr]

What about the ring you are using, does 10w difference appears when you are on a big (or small) ring ? If you are using Di2 and bluetooth you can collect the data on what teeth you are.

[@StevePatak]

50% of the time, it works every time.

[@yogatriathlete]

Actually the line is "60% of the time, it works every time"

[@ariffau]

really digging the industrial-design looking of this system

[@apit_zixxer]

I literally shout "FINALLY!”, even before i clicked the vid's thumbnail 😌

[@gplama]

Yeah.... don't get too excited. Sorry.

[@apit_zixxer]

@@gplama nothing to be sorry about.. you did your best to test the unit.. anyway, I just want to say that I'm really glad you exist.. I'm a bike tech nerd and your vids really help me for the past 5 years.. good job!

[@diracflux]

Looks like I’m still holding out for the holy grail of power meters... cheap, accurate, reliable.

[@jelle7224]

I still hope IQ2 manages to get it together. DCRainmaker's initial impressions of their new pedals were relatively positive but they still have to be thoroughly tested and prove they can reliably produce them at a larger scale.

[@go5alive]

Thanks for the insight on your testing. I'm also seeing 10 watts difference, but more consistently across the range between Inspider and Assioma pedals, but Inside. (I have to steal Judes pedals to compare), and only use Inspider outside. I've noted that the stiffness feel in using the ADHLU/Spider/Aero Ring combo with CK BB is greatly improved over previous Shimano PM/Crank/BB (which maybe an age thing although BB replaced regularly). I need to do some more comparisons to make sure I'm not doing something wrong. As a side note, I've no issues with the wake up of the Rotor Inspider, and maybe I'm just used to PM Calibrations so am not greatly bothered by this, as per rotors advice its not needed for every ride in any case. One thing I'm not impressed with though is the battery door, it fell off after a couple of uses.

[@go5alive]

After some more testing Indoors, Assiomas and Rotor Inspider are pretty much Identical. Here for data: www.zwiftpower.com/analysis.php?set_id=41023 and www.zwiftpower.com/analysis.php?set_id=41034 need to do outdoors test when the rain stops!

[@victrolaman2007]

One difference between indoor and outdoor is road vibration and shock. An interesting experiment is to introduce random shock events indoors, or ride on a (near perfect) surface like a track or velodrome and on a very rough surface.

[@carbonlord.]

Or use a NEO, turn on road feel and do Innsbruck on Zwift.

[@rlr3063]

Always love to see this power meter reviews! Next please, Specialized Power Cranks (dual sided) PLEASE

[@gplama]

Not on the cards. The local Specialized closed down.

[@russellbrooks2354]

Hi Shane. I’ve revisited this vid (along with others) a few times as I’m looking to buy one. They’re not bad value here in the UK and there are not a lot of options available at the moment. Any updates since this review? Thanks for the great content. 👍

[@campagnol1]

Mr Shane, thank you for a brilliant video. 1)Sure you didn't run over Shrodinger's cat? Because your last outing was perfect. 2) I am just hoping that this is not the last thing on my mind as I pass up into the great rabbit hole in the heavens having never owned a power meter. At the pearly gates my statement to St.Peter running along the lines of "GP loved truth and was a true bastion of the faith" alas I am jettisoned beneath to the land of XTR and flat bars wailing "but sir , It was 4 watts out' as I catch my last ever glimpse of a Dura Ace big dog and the cats tail whips away from my neurons for eternity.

[@gplama]

Cheers! Rotor and I are diving into the data now.... they're saying they haven't seen what I'm seeing in their testing. I'm offering to perform more testing using their suggested protocol, etc. I'm giving this meter every chance to prove itself. Stay tuned!

[@galenkehler]

Awesome, looking forward to this one

[@Rockbinkie]

Is the inaccuracy possibly related to running on the big vs little chain ring, or due to cross chaining? These might apply a twisting force to the spider which is picked up as pedal torque.

[@marttikaijansaari9945]

1.030 update available. Any info that has this resolved the data problem?

[@gplama]

I'll loop back one day... don't hang out for it. Rotor tell me there's been a hardware revision for the INSpider that is the only model that'll run the newer firmware. I'll have to source one of these updated units to re-test.

[@hectormaverick648]

Hi Shane, I've teste Rotor ALDHU24 Inspider Aero vs Garmin Rally RK200 pedal powermeter and on the way to find the rabbit hole 😂. Two things: 1. It looks like Rotor shows 10-15W more than the Rally pedals on small ring (5min @420-460W). In the big ring there are only 5W difference. 2. The Rotor pm shows sometimes zero Watts on longer climbs if there's a Garmin pedal Powermeter nearby. Saw it with Vector 3 pedals and Rally RK200. I'll do more tests with hot/cold conditions. What do you mean to the small/big ring difference? Could it explain your issues? 🤔

[@theoavana]

Thanks Lama. Super glad I bought another Quarq DZero instead of picking this one. 👍

[@svendeclercq5160]

Nice video with a lot of effort. Curius about the power2max powermeter. It use the same cranks but slightly different powermodule. And costs amost half the price. Thepower2max ng eco 4s(shimano). I use it a few weeks and love it. Espacialy i switch a lot between zwift and outside rides...same power. I hope! Afther seeing this content.

[@gplama]

I get asked about them a lot. If I can get a hold of a power2max, I can run it through the same tests.

[@papis408]

Love my P2M

[@JDMthwmn]

@GPLama - Hi Shane, did you receive a response from Rotor? How now would you compare this to the 2inPower? Here in the UK I've found a pretty good offer on the 2inPower, but it's obviously now a much older unit....but watching your reviews side by side, the older unit appears more reliable - certainly outdoors. One query - could the difference indoor vs outdoor relate to the method of connection, for example are you using Bluetooth indoors but Ant+ outdoors? Have you tried it with different head units to see if there is some sort of software interference?

[@gplama]

I have an updated firmware on the INSpider to perform more testing on. Initial rides indicate it still has the same issues. That doesn't give me a lot of motivation to spend another few days testing to potentially come to the same conclusion. At present I'm not using any Rotor meter as a trusted baseline to compare other meters to. Recording device type can influence overall averages due to the stop/start/recording. It shouldn't ever influence steady-state or continual pedalling sections of data. In short - There's a LOT of other meters on the market that outperform ROTOR. I'd be looking elsewhere.

[@JDMthwmn]

@@gplama thank you Shane for taking the time to reply. Yes, I can see how you’d not be inclined to spend your time fixing their products! At the premium price point Rotor asks, they really do need to be spot on.

[@jamesrobinson7886]

@@gplama Hi Shane - While you aren’t using it you could maybe confirm something for me… If there is a battery drain issue when not in use! I have had two units now and both suffered from the drain - fully charged to flat in 3 weeks (with no use at all). These were brand new units, currently waiting for a response from Rotor. Cheers

[@gplama]

@@jamesrobinson7886 That's not sounding good. I've just pulled the INSpider off the shelf here (after about 12 months of not using it). 0% charge. I'll fully charge it up now. Ping me in three weeks. :)

[@jamesrobinson7886]

@@gplama Hi again, that will be 3 weeks then… Be interesting to see if your unit still has charge and if so, if it has decreased considerably even without use. Cheers :-)

[@scottw6598]

Excellent video

[@strouja]

Great job and great work as usual. I love the review and I have no insight as to why it 10 watts off on occasion outdoors. Hopefully they can fix this via firmware. I suspect they can but need more testing and analysis like you have done. You bike mechanic skills are commendable with the swapping out things so easily. I have a power2max on my trek madone and like it and use the same rotor cranks with it. I bought NGeco Rotor ALDHU 24mm with cranks that cost $690 US (bought feb 20, 2020). I like that there is no calibration needed before I ride. I think the Power2Max is a better product than the Rotor Power Meter and there is less hassle to use. On a different topic, oddly with my new Tacx Neo 2 (warranty replacement for Neo 1) that my Power2Max reads 5% higher and my stages gen 3 left power meter (on another bike - fuji) reads 8% higher at 300 watts. I spent too much time trying to figure out what could be going on here.

[@gplama]

I really have to get a hold of a Power2Max unit. If only for my sanity.... if it works! :) If you want a really interesting rabbit hole.... I've seen a few watts difference on a Neo depending on the b-tension setting on a rear derailleur.

[@strouja]

@@gplama Thanks I spent a ton of time on this. Do you recall which way you moved the b-tension setting to get the neo to read more watts? I removed chain and cassette, did ultrasonic clean of both, re-lubed it, cleaned jockey wheels, took off bottom bracket to make sure it was 100% smooth. I even contacted stages and bought a new gen 3 power meter and sent the old one back and I keep the same results. For my original neo the power reading were much more in line with the stages and neo. I the put my newer bike (trek madone) with brand new power2max on it, removed its chain and its cassette, cleaned it via ultrasonic cleaner both of them, ensured treks bottom bracket was very smooth with little resistance. So I was really at my wits end and will play with b-tension setting (with help of my friend who is a mechanic). I wouldn't care as much but if I do a zwift race I hate seeing my stages at 325 to 330 watts and my neo2 at 300 watts and zwift is reading from neo. Sorry to bother you with this. Take care

[@gplama]

Less tension = better. But.... at the compromise of shifting performance. So with the tiny amount of watts saved (well, as indicated by a quick test), it could very well be negated by slower gear changes. As always, more testing needed.

[@galenkehler]

From the rotor website: "The spider-based power meter uses four strain gauges to achieve accurate power readings within +/- 1%. With an all-new ambient variable calibration feature, this power meter responds in real-time to changes in temperature and atmospheric fluctuations to ensure that your data is consistent regardless of conditions. "

[@gplama]

Rotor USA website? Their official site doesn't list accuracy as a spec. Anyhow... there's more going on than 1% with ATC.

[@waynosfotos]

So they say

[@AlvaroVgE]

Great video, thank you for the information. Are you planning to test SIGEYI AXO? What do you think about it?

[@chrisvanbuggenum871]

Awesome work. Takeaway message, you can get cheaper and more accurate power meters so don't bother with this one.

[@gplama]

Yep. But I'll also keep on this one in the hope it's a quick-fix with firmware, or it's the one unit that's being a bit of a random banana. :)

[@davidngqkalone88]

Its a shame because hardware wise it is an excellent power option for 24mm shimano users

[@PeakTorque]

Hi Shane, any update from Rotor yet? Our 24mm options our running out... Cheers!

[@gplama]

Short answer: Nope. Long answer: They released a new firmware a while back (0.28) that initial testing didn't show any change with. They've revised the hardware and the 'new' INSpider ships with 0.30 firmware. I don't have any detail on exactly what was updated in this 'new' hardware. I'll loop back to this again soon. In the meantime Power2Max with the Rotor ALDHU crankset + 24mm spindle works very well.

[@PeakTorque]

@@gplama Cheers mate. Yeh im looking at that whilst mourning DFour GXP. Or single sided 4iiii is my go-to.

[@8eodorosk]

@@gplama hello, do we have any news about the new firmware and if they fixed the issue? Iam in a very big dilemma. Sigeyi axo, power2max or the rotor inspider power meter...

[@gplama]

@@8eodorosk Initial testing of the new fw, no. Order of preference of those power meters: Power2Max. AXO. InSpider.

[@mathmyster]

Sounds a bit like the bb spindle is slopping about in the splines. Or some other backlash issues. Something is moving, just a little, and this could cause the stress/strain to re distribute, making the calibration off. On another note, you gotta start resampling the data and plotting the residuals (difference between powernumbers), it will make stuff like this easier to spot.

[@kidsafe]

Could it be temperature related? Maybe when you switched headings, the spider got exposed to the sun and heated up faster than its temperature compensation could deal with. Indoors, your ambient temperature would be more consistent. Maybe try another indoor test except with a focused heat source periodically pointing at the InSpider...

[@gplama]

They do mention ATC (or a variant of) in some paragraph hidden away somewhere. This was happening too quickly to be temp swings. I dived into the cadence theory and came to a dead end there too (cadence was 1:1 with both meters - or really really close).

[@FoxyScott]

@@gplama Won't there be at least two variables at play here affecting how quick this happens 1) how quickly the temperature changes and 2) how often the unit compensates and when triggered (e.g. every 1 degree or every 0.1 degree)?

[@gplama]

@@FoxyScott I guess. I'm also over trying to solve this one blindly. It's up to Rotor now.

[@YoureSoVane]

@@gplama could it be overcorrection from asymmetric rings? That, or it mistook left/right balance. Your comparison meters were all total power at the wheel, or pedal based.

[@kidsafe]

@@YoureSoVane He only tested with circular rings. Also it's a spider power meter so there is no left/right measurement to mess up.

[@yanniklowis9514]

Hi Shane, do you already know when you will launch your video about the IQ2 pedals. I’m really enjoying your powermeter testing and I’ve ordered a IQ2 powermeter on my own. So I’m looking forward to see your results of testing them.

[@gplama]

Just now.

[@yanniklowis9514]

@@gplama Perfect, thank you!

[@MrBJPitt]

Sometimes I think it would just be easier if the assioma duo was the only option. As long as the price stays the same.

[@romainm7147]

really not aerodynamic...

[@LucaBonato]

@@romainm7147 do you seriously think that pedals are so much of a factor when your legs are spinning at 90rpm and causes so much drag and turbolence?

[@alexandruantoniu3624]

Great video again! I was looking for a Power2Max Ngeco review but can't find anything on your channel. Any chance you gonna review one soon ?

[@gplama]

I’ll try... no luck getting a hold of power2max. The true irony is I have an IQSquared power meter on my bike, but no p2m.

[@yogatriathlete]

Hi Shane, when you calibrate the InSpider PM, you're supposed to put the left crank arm down at 6 o'clock, do the first calibration which gives you the 1000 result, then turn the cranks backwards at least 2 rotations and stop with the left crank arm down at 6 o'clock again, then do the 2nd calibration which gives you a value between +/- 200 (in your case 12). It looks like you skipped the step of the crank position and rotating.

[@gplama]

The b-roll footage was taken when the unit was off the bike, so that’s why it wasn’t shown. More on this, that’s a pain in the butt to do every zero.

[@toksyn]

Thank you Shane! Any chance you would be able to make available one of the datasets (Inspider vs Assioma, for example) showing the intermittent discrepancy?

[@gplama]

Not without first stripping the GPS data (and my location).

[@toksyn]

@@gplama Ok, no problem. Do you already have the means to quickly strip the GPS data from a GPX (or .fit) file? If not, I can put up a Python gist on github that can strip out the coordinates. You might prefer the GPX route because it's in a human readable format already, so you'll be able to verify that the GPS coordinates have been removed.

[@tyle.s9084]

Hi, love your reviews. Did you ever get an update on the current version of the Rotor Insider or is it still random?

[@gplama]

No updates on the InSpider here to report on.

[@tyle.s9084]

@@gplama Thanks a lot for the very quick reply

[@matteodemurtas2373]

Hi Shane! Is there any update on improvements with the Rotor Inspider power meter? I have a new bike incoming next week with that already mounted and wondering if it’s worth using it, or keep relying on my Favero Assioma and change the crankset with something without a power meter..

[@gplama]

I haven’t retested this since this this review.

[@Alex28.12]

Dear Shane, thank you for your interesting videos and all the effort! Which power meter would you recommend at the end? Pedals, measuring on cranks or even on axis? And which would you recommend. Looking forward to your feedback. Best

[@gplama]

I’ve had good experiences with Quarq, Power2Max, Favero Assioma, the new Stages 12spd Dual cranks, and a few others.

[@Alex28.12]

Thank you very much for your quick response!! 👍💪

[@TheCharnwoodCyclist]

Were any of the 10w issues related to being in the small chainring compared to the big ring? Also, how does the Rotor system pre load the bearings, is it the same as SRAM GXP in this respect?

[@gplama]

Chainring didn't appear to be the issue. I won't rule it out though.... There's a pre-load collar on the non drive-side.

[@wehiro]

Hi Shane Got on your Video after riding in Bormio - Italy ... Stelvio Gavia and Mortorolo and got pretty high watt outputs which made me wonder if thats really me or something is wrong :))). My Rotor Inspider device was on 1.027 firmware and I found 1.028 and updated it successfully after my trip to Bormio. As there is no information about changes and fixes I dont know if the 1.028 firmware will help to get more accurate data. Which one are you on ... have you been on ... any experience on firmware 1.028? Is there a newer one? Thx Robert .... its really hard to find any firmware somewhere ... compared to others like p2m and quark/sram its a really bad job rotor is doing .... anyway as long as data are accurate I would be fine with it ...

[@gplama]

Rotor have requested the return of this unit, which I have done. I have no more information other than what's posted here sorry.

[@wehiro]

@@gplama Thx Shane .... I m gonna test the new firmware upcoming week but somehow no Auto zero and the weird data really make me think about buying a power2max ng eco which I already used for some time ....

[@TobiasStahl-jx4pe]

Great video! Any chance you get your hands on the newly presented model?

[@gplama]

Just waiting on Rotor to get one over to me.

[@TobiasStahl-jx4pe]

That's what I was hoping to hear@@gplama! Looking forward.

[@simotammela9114]

Hi, I bought InSpider late last year because I'm using Qrings and wanted to get more out of them. I have only ridden it indoors with Elite Suito and Swift. I get constantly 20-25W less from InSpider to Polar Vantage and Rox12 (which I bought to measure OCP and OCA each training run) than from Suito and Swift. I have not ridden and I cannot compare to another power meter outside. By the way, Rox12 crashes when connected to InSpider... Sigma is looking to solve this problem.

[@Dolmar-Rick]

Hi Shane. Nice review, I've had this power meter since beginning of year. Slightly disappointed with results, did think your calibration was a bit wrong but dunno and when I asked rotor they said once you calibrate you don't need to do that again unless you change the rings or take the spindle out. It is supposed to auto 0 I thought could be wrong. Could it be a firmware thing though not sure it can be updated? I've had it on q rings and I have to say I really do like them. Don't think I would go back to round now😁. Hopefully you can figure out what going on. Cheers Rick👍

[@nfkb]

I have the Inspider to and I fond 1) rotor support bad 2) the calibration process cumbersome.... some people speaks about putting the left pedal down at a 6 o'clock position and then calibrating on the Bike computer (ie edge) and then doing two circles anti clockwise, do you do the same ?

[@sabamacx]

I wonder if the 10W delta correlates to riding direction / when the power meter was facing the sun or not --- thermal loads.

[@gplama]

The change is too fast for that. I'd expect it to be more gradual if it was heat/sun related.

[@aerobrain2001]

Any correlation to different standards of road surfaces?! Maybe not filtering out certain vibrations as well?!

[@gplama]

Inconclusive on that. There’s a really smooth 2km section I was using and the results were still random.

[@tricoachemily8646]

MSc Biomechanics student here, I'm about to use Wahoo Kickr and Inspider to measure power for my project and came across this video while researching for the reliability of Inspider. I wonder if the 10W difference was due to temperature change caused by stop start / coasting to start?

[@gplama]

Best contact Rotor if you need this level of data.

[@tricoachemily8646]

@@gplama (Just in case you'd like experiment with blasting some cold air on to the spider during a turbo session...)

[@robin_stevens]

Did I saw this correctly that the Rotor produces higher values then the Favero pedals, but lower values then the Powertap pedals. Assuming the values you get from the Rotor are constant, would that mean that there is a rather large difference between those 2 pedal-based PM's ?

[@gplama]

When the Rotor is consistent we can come to conclusions like this. For now, we can't. The thing seems to swing like a c-grade cricketer in the last over of a match.

[@ClayDavies]

Just a word of warning, doesnt work with T47 internal style BB's. Might work with the external style T47. Rules this out if you have a Trek road bike.

[@parickamon]

It is cause auf the InSpider that don`t fit with the Outer diamater of the Bearing, or why it does not work? Will the Inpower Rotor works with T47 internal?

[@DominikLoeffler1]

Any update on this? It's been a while and new firmware has been released

[@gplama]

I did some initial testing of a new firmware a while back. No improvement. I'll loop back to this one day.... It's not a high priority though.

[@DominikLoeffler1]

@@gplama That's a shame. They should relaunch this with the issues fixed and at a lower price. Competing with Favero and Sigeyi is too hard like this. Also would love to see a new 2inPower with Aldhu Carbon crank compatibility

[@flairabc]

Can the power be manually scaled ? I want to use my kickr bike as my true north and adjust all my power meters to match this.

[@northkyt]

Another option is Rotor cranks with a Power2Max spider-based power meter. That might be more consistent and perhaps a little less expensive too.

[@gplama]

Reviewed here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r36Tfah3fpxjrJY

[@natus99]

Shane, do you know if the issue you observed was solved with software upgrades?

[@gplama]

This has been a while. I do know they made a running change to the hardware of the INSpider and those newer revisions had an updated firmware. Not something I looped back to test. I do have their updated 2INPower SL here to install and test. That'll be coming soon... maybe in a month or so.

[@natus99]

@@gplama thanks for a reply! I have a very good offer for inSpider and wonder if for the second bike it is a good option (have in2power on my main bike)

[@moritzde177]

@@gplama has there been any update on the above? Thank you :)

[@mateoduque3391]

@@gplamaHey mate, could you make a review on the new firmware, just got the power meter i want to know if it’s reliable cheers

[@csealby]

I've just fitted one of these to my new bike, I hope it's just a one off, or a firmware issue, I noticed on my last ride it kept loosing connection for a few seconds to my Garmin 1030, I put it down to the fact I tried using it on the previous ride on on the rotor software on my phone, to collect data, so wondered if it was a Bluetooth issue, so my next ride I'll connect it via Ant+ and keep my fingers crossed 🤞 I also have the 2In power on one of my other bikes which I like, but then again I haven't got anything to compare it too.

[@EvidenceofaFabulousLife]

I have a 2in Power on my mountain bike and have run it against other power meters on my indoor trainer and it's accurate (or at least as accurate as the other power meters I have 😂).

[@Horstelin]

Considering that the unit is only inaccurate outside: Sounds like an accelerometer/gyro issue to me... Did you have a look at the cadence numbers too?

[@gplama]

Looked into that. Dead end, no answers there from what it was reporting.

[@mateoduque3391]

Hey! do you have in consideration on making a review on the latest version? cheers

[@gplama]

If I can get one to test, sure.

[@DaftDroneYT]

Outdoor variation could be caused by riding out of the Saddle? Some power meters have problems with misreading lateral forces and giving inaccurate values

[@gplama]

Nope. Most of this was steady state in the saddle. Good query though. 👍🏼

[@jedisdad2265]

Shane do you have any reviews of PowerBox Alloy power meter?

[@gplama]

Nope. Not something I’ve had access to.

[@jedisdad2265]

Shane Miller - GPLama Thank you for the reply. Always enjoy your reviews.

[@tylerlougheed569]

The autozero, meaning lack thereof, would annoy me to no end. My Power2Max from 3-4 years ago zeros itself automatically anytime I stop pedalling. Seems a glaring omission on Rotor’s part.

[@thenerdycanadian7172]

Even my FSA PowerBox (P2M NG Eco) has auto zero for half the price and only weighs about 100g more

[@georgefarrowgreen01]

how does auto zero accurately zero something while you have weight on the pedal causing a force to be applied?

[@AndreLeaoMacedo]

Any chance this is down to chainring or crank bolt torque or maybe a need of let the system "break-in" after a chainring change or crank re-instalation?

[@gplama]

That usually results in wonky data for the first ride or 20mins of the first ride. At which time everything is good after a 'zero'. This was occuring over weeks of riding and two chainring configurations (installed at the correct torque, a bedding in performed, re-zeroed, etc, etc).

[@tsofron]

hello...any news on the iq2 pedals? :D not necessarily an in depth review, but a short video...

[@gplama]

Yep. Working on the video today.

[@tsofron]

@@gplama happy days :). sneak preview - all good, do you like the unit? yes / no is fine ;)

[@gplama]

You're going to have to wait for the video. Channel members (Team Lama and above) have had a preview of the data and my take on things already.

[@jasonhowes6431]

Hi Shane do you know if the 10 watt issue has been sorted now i was looking at this system to day.

[@gplama]

No word from Rotor after I returned to unit for them to review.

[@jasonhowes6431]

Shane Miller - GPLama ok not good news then thanks for the reply.

[@steyr344]

hi shane just a bit off topic. I have a garmin 810, while i can use to connect with smart trainer and do regular workouts. it does not support erg mode so i can never have a downloaded workout control my trainer. is this right ...do i need to update my garmion to a newer model..

[@gplama]

You'll need a head unit that supports trainer control. I'm not sure the 810 will do this.

[@kimchijun1209e0]

Did Rotor reach out to you if they are working to fix these issues?

[@gplama]

*Update. Yes they have.

[@kimchijun1209e0]

@@gplama even if it gets fixed, do you think it is worth $649 when Assioma with torque effeectiveness+L/R balance is at about $750?

[@yogatriathlete]

@@kimchijun1209e0 I think it's worth it for people that have different pedal preferences, such as Shimano/Speedplay/Time pedal users for example. Not everybody is a fan of the Look cleat/pedal interface

[@mojorourke21]

You said you weren't a fan of Q-rings... have you done a review over them? Would love to see your opinion!

[@gplama]

I haven't read any papers/data/etc saying they're worth fitting to my bike. People love them, or hate them, but nobody* can definitively say they're better. *Anyone who isn't selling them or somehow commercially involved with them. If people believe they work, great. I won't be spending any time trying to prove or disprove them on that in the short term future.

[@michwoz]

Did you pay attention to what gear you were using when inaccuracies happened? Extreme gears may cause spider based power meters inaccuracies (if not handled by strain gauge design or software). Another thing may be unstable spider/crankset interface which causes floating zero offset. That's why Quarq ditched 3 bolts mounting system for 8 bolts one.

[@gplama]

I did... and is one reason why I changed from the Rotor rings over to the Shimano rings to see if there was any difference. Nothing notable I could put my finger on. No cross chaining either - although that would be a really good test to try (argh, damn it, more testing!) :)

[@michwoz]

@@gplama Haha. That's in fact a rabbit hole ;) I would also try to install it dry, with no grease in places where spindle, spider and right crank arm have contact with each other. It may help with zero offset shifting during ride.

[@iMadrid11]

Is the internal lithium battery replaceable? It would be a shame to throw away the power meter if you cant service to replace the battery.

[@gplama]

Not on this power meter.

[@dimitrisbudas6880]

Did anyone had to use 0,5mm spacers between the aldu Alloy crank arm and the inspider pm? I just got mine and puted together and without spacers between the 2 components there is a lot of play

[@michaelsteele5495]

Given that there are cheaper and more reliable options, what is the point and usage benefit in getting this?

[@gplama]

That’s a good question.

[@bikescience1]

One key advantage is that the spider can be used with any type of bike. On road or off. Rotor make 2x rings 1x rings for pretty much every possible configuration

[@gplama]

@@bikescience1 Xcadey and Sigeyi make spiders with identical dimensions.

[@ttarr111]

Shane did they work out what the issue was?

[@gplama]

The unit was returned. I’ll post an update when I know more.

[@a_grizzle]

With only two meters measuring, how do you know it's the Rotor and not the pedals that are 10 watts off at times?

[@gplama]

100s of data sets and other reference comparisons with the pedals.

[@bikescience1]

Did you use a torque wrench to install?

[@gplama]

Yes.

[@bikescience1]

Thanks. Will be really interested to know if you find out what’s going on. Did you ever get to the bottom of the 2InPower differences between indoors and outdoors?

[@davidk.8608]

What are the differences between outsides and indoors that could affect it? temperature and direct sunlight on the unit - could that cause problems?? 🤷‍♂️

[@gplama]

The changes were to fast to attribute to temperature (even in direct sunlight). Vibration likely the biggest factor between inside and outside.

[@MrBJPitt]

@@gplama I was thinking vibration as well, cadence numbers accurate outdoors?

[@gplama]

@@MrBJPitt Cadence is really good between the two meters outside - both when the power is good and... not so good.

[@davidk.8608]

@@gplama yes, vibration! It didn't cross my mind. Thanks Shane

[@PedroLopez-zw5gz]

For MTB use - would you recommend it ? inspider ?

[@gplama]

No

[@waynosfotos]

All very interesting, thanks Shane. Just jumped in and bought the arguably most expensive pedal power meters the "exakt", look /srm colab. I needed a pedal based unit as i am running the Look zed crank system and the asiomas were not available and they could say when they would be back in stock. Previously i was running a Garmin V2s and the reading from that was about 15 to 20 percent higher than the new Exakt. I was also scratching my head but i noticed my foot balance was about 10 to 15 percent bias to the left foot, so that explains the difference. All very hard to know if your power meters are accurate when you don't have lots to compare with. Anyone here have any experience with the exakt power meters? I also did a vid on the installation. Cheers

[@gplama]

I won’t be getting any SRM units any time soon. They’re not the ‘gold standard’ often quoted.

[@waynosfotos]

@@gplama yes i realised that, and i heard the story from Raoul regarding how the SRM got their "gold standard" reputation, just a off the cuff comment that stuck. Was just asking your audience if they have had any experience with them. I can't speak for accuracy as i have no way of having a known reference so can only go by what l see. The build quality looking at the product appears well finished, i really only went this way due to a shortage of product at the moment. But any feedback would be appreciated, so we can share with the cyclists out there, as i make cycling vids also to educate people, no money or sponsorship this end. So all for love. Cheers

[@Tonycbr-ku6ez]

Hola. Buenas tardes. Acaba de salir una nueva actualizacion para este potenciometro,podrias hacer una nueva prueba a ver que tal. Saludos y gracias.

[@oriolpalauf]

I owe one of these Rotor Inspider power meter and it doesn't offer Torque Effectiveness nor Pedal Smothness data at all.

[@gplama]

Well... that spec sheet I read off is wrong. Sorry about that. I'm surprised they can do Torque 360 and all that but not TE or PS? Anyhow. Bigger issues with the unit I have with basic power function.

[@oriolpalauf]

Shane Miller - GPLama yeah, but since the Inspider can’t read both sides independently it can’t either know how you’re pedaling to obtain TE or/and PS. It’s not key to know wether the power comes from (left/roght) in order to obtain Torque360. I think that’s the explanation. My Inspider is currently at Rotor’s due to random ANT+ power drops during the activities. As soon as I get the new one, I will investigate about the inconsistency you found on yours. I can share some data with you from my Inspider, in case you are interested. I recorded some data and also compared it with other powermeters using the Rainmaker Analizer tool too.

[@JohnathanFreter]

I own 2 units and can confirm this. 😅

[@SalvatoreAliperti]

Hi, do you recommend purchasing the latest version of rotor inspider? Has anyone bought it for MTB use? Thank you

[@gplama]

Can’t comment without testing it myself.

[@SalvatoreAliperti]

@gplama thank you Anyway 💪🏽 I'm waiting for some answers by anyone who bought it. Bye!

[@ABHISHEK-or2ci]

This is double side crankset power meter or single side

[@gplama]

It’s a spider, so measures total power.

[@ABHISHEK-or2ci]

@@gplama that means double side power meter

[@gplama]

As a simplification it could be considered one. Double sided or ‘dual sided’ is a term typically used to describe a meter that measures force independently on each side such as power meter pedals or some crank based meters.

[@ABHISHEK-or2ci]

@@gplama kindly please help me to buy double side power meter. please suggest me which one I want to buy.

[@ricardovasquezcorrea7887]

Hi Shane. great video as always. One quick question. How does the INspider compare do the INpower powermeter (The one that does left leg only) from Rotor? In both accuracy and features. Which one is the better unit.

[@gplama]

I'd have to say the INSpider has a chance at being a better unit.... IF the issues I'm seeing with the power outside can be resolved/explained. The INPower being a single leg unit has limitations there too.

[@ricardovasquezcorrea7887]

@@gplama Thanks for your reply Shane! So if I understood correctly the INspider is as good as the INpower or better as long as these issues are resolved. I ask since I see both Units are priced exactly the same.At least here in Spain.

[@TheCrossroads09]

Your starting to remind me of 'Doc' Brown...

[@gplama]

If my calculations are correct, when this baby hits eighty-eight miles per hour...you're going to see some serious shit! :)

[@FoxyScott]

No mention of temperature compensation?

[@gplama]

I'm told they have it. It's not listed on any tech spec sheets (or anywhere I can easily find more info on)

[@FoxyScott]

@@gplama Any chance the temperature compensation causes the reset on drift outdoors vs a more stable indoor temperature environment not needing to reset?

[@JohnathanFreter]

Firmware .28 is public. Hopefully this helps a little bit.

[@gplama]

I have three really solid data sets from fw28..... still the same issue. This could be the unit I have. I'll ping Rotor with the data.

[@JohnathanFreter]

@@gplama Have you had any issues with battery drain? We've been traveling a little bit for some races and I'm getting about 15-20 hours battery life between it becomes non-responsive on my Hammerhead K2 unit. I would not classify 10% of the suggested battery life as ideal. (Battery life is quoted between 200-300 hours depending on which media site that you look at.) Thanks!

[@gplama]

@@JohnathanFreter I haven't used it long since its return to measure this. It should be a case for replacement if you're only getting 15-20hrs. Ping Rotor and see what they say.

[@JohnathanFreter]

@M F got my replacement unit. It has 1.030 fw loaded on it.

[@JohnathanFreter]

@M F “Hi , the new firmware [1.030] is actually an update for new *hardware! If your serial # is greater than 5000, you can use the new firmware

[@SixGunTodd]

Roadies are so funny about elliptical rings.....I think most just assume they have the perfect pedal stroke. Those of us running in the dirt don't have such problems enjoying the benefits :)

[@gplama]

Benefits of only one front ring helps.

[@bvdg123]

Any update from Rotor on this one?

[@gplama]

No word form them after returning this unit.

[@Hosant123]

Such a disappointment. Do you recon this power meter is better than single sided or dual sided shimano cranks based ones?

[@gplama]

It's on par with a good single sided Shimano left crank... we'll have to wait and see what they do with the dual configuration.

[@ride-around]

Any update from rotor??

[@gplama]

Not as yet.

[@davepratt9909]

An hypothesis based upon no facts just conjecture. Could it be based upon differing sampling rate/intervals? Since you don't have a equal force over the entire pedal stroke, could the outdoor ride that seems to have more variation in power also have more variation in cadence causing the sampling of the instantaneous torque to be taken at different points in the pedal stroke. As part of your test data, take a look at the cadence overlaid on the power graphs. Is there a correlation of either cadence or cadence variability with the difference is power? Here's another theory, the pedals and the spider do measure the torque at two different points in the mechanical system. In the indoor rides, the relatively constant pedal force and cadence loads the system up and maintains a fairly consistent tension on all the elements. When you are outside, the variability in pedal force and cadence causes the pedal/crank arm, crank arm/spindle, spindle/spider, and spider/chain rings joints to load and unload as well as flexing of the spindle and crank arms. As such, I would not expect to have the exact measurement between the two devices. Given a well built and calibrated system, I wouldn't expect more than a watt or two. So, yeah, 10 watts does seem like there is a miss-calibration somewhere. Or there is much more spring in the system. But I this was the case, I would expect to see more over and under readings as the system loads / unloads.

[@gplama]

Comparing the cadence at the times where the units are off, no difference. Both the Rotor and Assioma do IAV (or a variation) - both supporting oval chainrings, so I don't believe there should be any issues with non uniform cadence. I'm trying to come up with excuses as to why this power meter is good, and my testing isn't. Still yet to find a reason.

[@davepratt9909]

@@gplama Oh well, I tried. Maybe it's good because "it looks good"? ;-)

[@pinnacleheatingsolutions6165]

Cross chaining. Stay in one gear for a spell. Preferably straight chain. Then go extreme cross chain and see

[@gplama]

Not the cause

[@japmkam]

Still waiting for mountain bike pedals with power.

[@gplama]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5Okd3yegMabpK8

[@japmkam]

@@gplama thank you. I remember seeing that video when it came out. These are something to seriously consider. It might work. I ride tandem bikes exclusively with my wife and prefer mountain style over road just for the traction needed when stopping and balancing on one leg while she remains clipped in.

[@jobicek]

If it's fine indoors and troublesome outdoors, source of the problem must be external. For example, on a real ride, the bike is probably swaying more, especially out of the saddle. But I'm sure you've tested such simple theories. I can't imagine it being an internal source like funky jiter as that would surely show indoors as well. And if it's a faulty unit, it's worrying as it probably wouldn't be caught by QA testing since they're probably not going to test each one on a bike outdoors. Also, there is the fact that they don't specify accuracy. With +-5 % claimed, it might pass (I haven't watched the numbers). With +-1 % claimed, it wouldn't. It would be nice to know the source. But they're not breaking their promises. Personally, I wouldn't consider buying it without the manufacturer making a firm stance on performance. It undermines warranty. Unfortunately, in measurements, you need at least two sources to be able to figure out something is wrong. You need at least three to have a chance of pinpointing which is wrong. How is the saying, a man with two watches is never sure what time it is.

[@waynosfotos]

Accuracy is a little more complicated than that in industry, Shane and DC are only comparing a number of units, it doesn't mean they know what a WATT is. You need calibrated units traceable to national measurement standards to claim that with variance figures and confident levels. But for practicality purposes this is fit for purpose for us cyclists for measuring power.

[@jo28sx]

Starting to think IQ2 is having problems 😭

[@_clemens_]

I hope GPLama waits with his review until IQ² is shipped to backers. No need to give them more publicity without being sure they will be able to deliver ever. However knowing if he is having any bigger problems would be nice.

[@jo28sx]

I check every morning when I get up hoping he’s done a positive video 😂

[@_clemens_]

@@jo28sx The thing about a positive video is that it doesn't tell us a lot...we already know from DCR that IQ² can make good PMs in small amounts (at least when testing for a short time, not abused in heavy conditions). But we don't know how "mass produced" those few PMs are which were shipped. A bad review would indicate (together with the problems DCR had with his first pair) that we can expect a lot of troubles if they would finally ship. And I just want people to wait with ordering them until it is for sure that IQ² can and will deliver, and a positive review would maybe lead to people preordering and also waiting forever. If he would publish a review I hope he at least very clearly states to wait with buying them until they ship.

[@gplama]

@@_clemens_ I have no dog in this race. I didn't back IQSquare. I'd never have recommended anyone to buy a power meter unseen and untested. They started throwing around my brand name in their updates.... and here we are. I have been supplied a unit to give my take on. I know very well it may not be a production unit and will discuss this. I'll present my experience with the unit they've sent - the good - the bad - the data. That's what I do (it's what pays the bills).

[@kidsafe]

So the InSpider is accurate indoors and inaccurate outdoors. The 2InPower is accurate outdoors and inaccurate indoors. That's somewhat amusing.

[@gplama]

I didn't reference that..... I was hoping things had changed in three years. Inside the 2INPower didn't swing (iirc?) it was just reading higher.

[@waynosfotos]

@@gplama very strange Shane, it needs to be related to a control which only varies outside. Temp doesn't seem likely as it is a step change. If i remember you don't run any float, so can't be foot position. A curly one for sure..... Maybe road surface, causing vibration, you ride on chip seal?

[@moritzhaager6659]

Have you had a chance to see how the new gen inspirer performs?

[@galenkehler]

I bet its thinking you are using q-rings when you aren't :)

[@gplama]

There's no setting for enabling/disabling q-ring support, so that's not it.

[@galenkehler]

@@gplama I was thinking more of an internal glitch in the firmware, I'm not sure how they manage that inside but maybe the unit was switching modes.

[@MrBJPitt]

@@galenkehler that makes no sense as the varying power is not during pedal stroke, it's mins apart. And is not an issue indoors...

[@gplama]

@@galenkehler Hmm.. It's a strange one. Impossible to know unless there's some kind of debug mode. One for Rotor to look into. I've spent waaaaaay too much time on this one for them.

[@galenkehler]

@@gplamathanks for all you do for us!

[@michaelkennedy9031]

Over $1,100 just for the spider... No Aussie buyers then

[@lIIustration]

Screw rotor. Their "life time warranty" for cranks is bogus. I had a 3D30 crankset that supposedly had lifetime warranty for defects, got it through power2max with their spider power meter. Turns out it was from a bad batch since the spindle was crooked and power2max confirmed that, but since I found out over a year after, they wouldn't help me out. Rotor wouldn't return my emails either. Wouldn't buy anything from this company again.

[@ChrisWright2000]

Same experience with Power L & R from them. Paid over 1000 euros and had support refused just outside warranty. I got offered a “Loyalty Upgrade” deal costing me over 500 euros on the then new Ipower. I too got no replies from Rotor customer service even after sending them Garmin .fit files and a detailed report of the faults. Why would anyone “upgrade”and buy more tech junk from a company that turns its back on you when you maybe need a firmware update or a bit of tech support to fix gear you already invested in? Rotor = Rubbish. IMHO

[@nevillellewellyn8101]

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