Rifling on the *outside* of the barrel? The SR-11 with firearms and weapons expert Jonathan Ferguson

An Antipodean entry with some extremely extremely rare features, but like so many weapons of this series, this week's entry was destined to be a footnote in the annals of firearms history.
Created by Australian, Russell Robinson, inventor of other extremely odd looking firearms, the SR-11 had an auto-ejecting magazine and reverse rifle grooves on the outside of its barrel in an attempt to counterract effect of the spin of the bullet to improve accuracy. Join Jonathan as he calls in his science pals to see if all that effort was really worth it.
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Sources
smallarmsreview.com/robinsons...
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[@jonnejaaskelainen]

The gun may be characterized by some seemingly topsy-turvy design, but it actually makes a lot of sense when you realize the designer was Australian.

[@derekp2674]

That being so, Robinson ended up in the wrong place to contribute to the post-war developments of the Stechkin, the VZ61 Skorpion and PM63 Rak.

[@F1ghteR41]

@@derekp2674 These three are quite a bit more suited to their area of use, however. The SR-11, on the other hand, looks like total madness for jungle warfare, and given that Robinson saw it as a good enough idea to still patent it in 1970, decades after it failed in the tests, I cannot imagine him contributing anything sensible to these designs or any other of that sort.

[@derekp2674]

@@F1ghteR41 After WW2, I think British and Commonwealth forces quickly figured out that something like the AR15 would be a good primary firearm for jungle combat, with the Browning HiPower providing a good option for a secondary arm. Thus the availability of those options did not leave much of a business case for working up Robinson's constant recoil ideas into a novel machine pistol. In my time I've worked with a few crazy inventors. However, after detailed study of the SR11 patent and making due allowance for his other firearms design work, I am not prepared to dismiss Robinson as just another mad inventor. That said, I have no first hand experience of jungle fighting to draw on. I did once have a work colleague who told me he had served in Burma in WW2, as a special forces sapper. He said his unit found that the M1 carbine was the best choice for their needs (for what we'd now call a PDW) and he also added a Browning HiPower to his personal inventory. (I assume he acquired a Canadian made one intended for Chinese service.)

[@samuelgarrod8327]

I saw a video the other day about a new but not really new type of rotary engine. Can't remember if the engineering was Aussie tho. Probably.

[@F1ghteR41]

@@derekp2674 Well, AR-15 didn't become available before the early '60s, and during that period SMGs were quite prominent. So Robinson could potentially find an application for his ideas at home - e.g. providing a contender for what would become the F1 SMG. M1 carbines were indeed held in high regard in South-East Asia for ages (think of Chindits and Indochina wars), Indonesian law enforcement only getting rid of them a couple of decades ago. Without claiming any in-depth knowledge of jungle warfare I can safely point out large mud ingress holes and disposable magazines (a strain on logistics in any regard, much more overseas) as obvious deficiencies.

[@1969Risky]

The idea came about from clearing Japanese pillboxes & tunnels in a very confined space. Carrying a Lithgow SMLE NoI MkIII* in some tunnels & pillboxes wasn't justified due to size & not every Aussie digger in the SW Pacific theatre was armed with an Owen or Austen SMG. I've only ever seen one SR-11 which we called the Robinson 9mm & that was at the NSW Police Force Armoury. The example I saw didn't have the buttstock. Great video on something I thought I'd never see ever again.

[@derekp2674]

I once read a history of the American 'tunnel rats' in the Vietnam war (The Tunnels of Cu Chi: A Remarkable Story of War by Tom Mangold and John Penycate) which told how those US soldiers preferred to use .38 revolvers underground, because these produced less noise and blast than other available weapons. But a suppressed, compact SMG ought to work well for such duties.

[@jameshealy4594]

@@derekp2674 I would imagine in that sort of environment, size (or rather lack of it) would rule all other considerations. I can't see wanting an M16A1 in a tunnel, even a pistol with a supressor would add a lot of awkwardness, let alone an SMG.

[@derekp2674]

@@jameshealy4594 I'm sure size was part of it but those who chose to use .38s would have also had access to 1911A1s.

[@jameshealy4594]

@@derekp2674 I was thinking about exactly that but often end up with "wall of text" posts. I can definitely see choosing the .38 over the 1911 based on muzzle flash & blast, but I don't think a physically much larger weapon would have gotten the same consideration, even if it was significantly better at reducing those effects. I absolutely could be wrong though!

[@1969Risky]

@@derekp2674 A friend of mine was an Aussie tunnel rat during the Vietnam War & he used a Browning L9A1 9mm. The senior guys at the NSW Police Armoury knew the specs behind the Robinson 9mm. The Japanese hold outs in PNG were all interconnected via tunnels & trenches. The Australian Army at that time didn't have many suppressed weapons. They were given to Z Force personnel mainly. The Australian Army in 1945 went to liberate Borneo. Any holdouts by the Japanese were usually dealt with flamethrowers & explosives. The Robinson 9mm would have been perfect for clearing tunnels. SMG wise, we only had the Owen & Austen but not in large numbers as many people think. Their size would have been restricted in any tunnels. Also, the Australian Army didn't have many pistols. Officers carried mainly the Webley or Enfield revolvers.

[@toooldfortwowheels2048]

Given the tendency for the gun to "nose down" in fully automatic fire I wonder if the stock/brace is for poutting under the arm pit to try to prevent this? Excellent video as ever.

[@RoyalArmouries]

Good shout and thank you

[@jonathanferguson1211]

Thank you! I had the same thought however the photos of it being held show shouldering. Had they put a buttplate on it you could have done either, like a Viper or Thompson.

[@micumatrix]

Had same thought 😊

[@gerry343]

That rear overhang for the slide rails looks extremely vulnerable to ingesting dirt and other debris.

[@alltat]

The "buttstock" also looks like it's just asking to get sat on or caught in car doors when you're in a hurry.

[@James-vw9yy]

@@alltat Another thing to lose in the couch cushions

[@JinKee]

The polish Rak-9 used in the iranian embassy seige had a similar design, the idea is that if dirt could get in you could easily brush the dirt out

[@sulivanmagnum]

​@@JinKeebut if I put a ham sandwich in it probably won't run

[@ancientburrito9893]

@@sulivanmagnumTo be fair I don’t think most guns would run if you put an entire ham, let alone a whole ham plus a sandwich in it.

[@joetaylor486]

God the machining costs must have been huge!

[@leecoates3674]

On top of the raw materiel costs!

[@agoogleaccount2861]

Australia is known for odd but effective gun designs. The Owen SMG is a prime example

[@Ogaitnas900]

odd but effective, like their fauna

[@kutter_ttl6786]

And then there's this thing...

[@agoogleaccount2861]

@@kutter_ttl6786 tbh. I think a modernized version of it would be practical for some things it has a nice lightweight styling and quality to it

[@geoffreypiltz271]

The Owen gun is only "odd" insofar as it is extremely simple and very reliable.

[@agoogleaccount2861]

@@geoffreypiltz271 top mounted magazine right in the normal sight plane is kinda odd when literally EVERYTHING ELSE feeds from the bottom or side

[@jameshealy4594]

I know it's not unique these days but I'm so glad for channels like FW, C&Rsenal, capandball, britishmuzzleloaders, and you fine gentleman at the Royal Armouries - the calm and reflective presentation of knowledge is absolutely what I want more of (anyone with recomendations, regardless of subject, do please speak up...). It's nice to learn something about a new to me weapon from my home country - even better that it comes from people who regognise that Armouries should include a U!

[@peterclarke7240]

InRange and Bloke on the Range have very similar vibes: relaxed, nerdy, informative and with a sense of humour that isn't just about making things go boom for lols.

[@jameslawrence2446]

Just to give credit where credit is properly due - Russel Shepherd Robinson was a New Zealander, not an Australian. He was born and raised in Hamilton but divided his time between NZ, Australia, the UK, and the US. He graduated from MIT in 1932 and went to work for various aerospace companies before WW2. As far as I know, he didn't actually come up with the constant recoil principle used in this gun; the first prototype was made by a Mr. Gatenby, but Robinson was invited by the Army Inventions Board to improve the design. As you say, Robinson kept plugging this idea into the 1970s. By then he was working for Colt and was doing successful work on machine guns for the US Army, but in his spare time he was still harping on about the constant recoil principle. He even made a shoulder-fired .50 calibre anti-aircraft gun using this action. I believe you have Robinson's SR 9 in your collection which is probably worth a look in the future.

[@derekp2674]

Thanks for those extra details. From the Patent and the Small Arms Review article, l had guessed that Robinson was an enthusiastic champion for constant recoil systems. As regards the system for compensating 'spin kick' here, I'm sure it indicates his passion for these topics and suggests that he might have been something of a perfectionist. But it is hard to make exact judgements on the basis of limited records.

[@wrxs1781]

Good video Jonathan, this is a new one on me, have in the past fired a Russian or eastern European full auto pistol, empty in a blink of an eye. My description of todays example would be "funky"

[@100lancey]

The Uzi telescoping bolt idea could well have originated from an idea like this. Telescoping bolts are essentially a pistol slide inside a tube! How interesting.

[@derekp2674]

I agree, but it is usually thought that the Uzi design was directly inspired by earlier (but still post WW2) Czech SMG designs.

[@Yoel_Mizrachi]

There was (maybe still is) American company that made an AR-15 lower that automatically eject empty magazines, Cobalt was the name of either the company or the gun.

[@MartianLivesMatter]

That's funny, I'm from Australia and had a similar idea for a constant recoil action. In essence the idea is to turn the longitudal force into rotational, to dispel that recoil through a spinning weight. Pretty much like a J damper.

[@bullzebub]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWTZeWqCnNuogpY something like that?

[@thekaxmax]

A spinning weight at that sort of speed sounds /really/ unsafe.

[@MartianLivesMatter]

@@thekaxmax you mean unsafe like having an explosion go off a few inches from your face or having an open bolt fly back towards it?

[@thekaxmax]

@@MartianLivesMatter You still have an explosion near your face. Same with the bolt--that still has to go backwards and forwards. You're adding danger, not replacing any.

[@shovelchop81bikeralex52]

Great video! As for guns with auto mag drop systems, Cobalt Kinetics have their own 'CARS' system on their elite 3 Gun and Race Gun competition AR's, this automatically ejects empty mags and 'auto loads' a new round making the cocking handle and mag release button virtually superfluous during competitions.

[@jonathanferguson1211]

Ah yes! Thank you. I knew I'd seen something on TFB at some point but couldn't recall anything about it.

[@F1ghteR41]

3:57 I would say that calling this rod a buttstock is an unwarranted compliment, for the butt is severely lacking. 😉 5:48 It looks to be a double-stack, double-feed one, which is a very advanced feature for a time when even among submachineguns it wasn't as common. 9:10 Oh, so the M16 wasn't even the first gun to be designed with this madness in mind?! And why is it always the desire to sink your magazine in some jungle swamp hundreds of miles away from your manufacturing base?.. 9:51 Incidentally, that giant mud ingress opening on the rear of the frame together with a fluted barrel look extremely jungle-friendly as well. 😁 12:05 Comedy aside, that's an outstanding amount of work! Hats off to whoever did it! 13:00 Now I wonder whether this would work in autocannons... 14:26 I'm surprised to hear that no Australian SMGs were used for comparison. Also, from the outside MCEM-2 looks to be in the first wave of what would become a very common pattern of post-war SMGs, so it's an even more interesting test.

[@wastedangelematis]

Thank you tha🎉

[@F1ghteR41]

@@wastedangelematis Cheers!

[@robertmansfield7656]

Robison has designed a 20 mm , 40mm and was working 75mm ( Using components from the M3) auto cannon by the end of the war. No the 75 mm would be something to see.

[@F1ghteR41]

@@robertmansfield7656 That's interesting, thanks for sharing.

[@davekrab3363]

Did you hide this from Ian on his visit? Seems to be right up his alley.

[@derekp2674]

Perhaps Ian was too busy drooling over the Fedorov Avtomat :)

[@phileas007]

maybe spinning the barrel can contribute to the action by slightly reducing the slide mass necessary, since it basically increases the overall apparent inertia.

[@derekp2674]

That's probably true in principle but doesn't seem to work in practice here. As mentioned by Jonathan, the developers had to rework the example shown with an extra heavy slide to get it to cycle smoothly.

[@tweake7175]

I think there is a savage pistol that works similarly. Good idea for a small light pistol, tho it wasn't in production long.

[@derekp2674]

@@tweake7175 The Savage model 1907 uses a patented rotating barrel delayed blowback action. But really it is just a straight blowback and the rotating barrel only contributes to getting around Browning's patents. Forgotten Weapons has an "Ask Ian" video about it, where high speed video is used to show that the breech begins to open as soon as the shot is fired.

[@tweake7175]

@derekp2674 yes, but it also has a lighter slide than a comparable pistol. Its making some use of the barrel weight to slow down the opening.

[@derekp2674]

@@tweake7175 I can see that being true in principle but have you watched the "Ask Ian" video?

[@kolega4ever]

Thank you for the "Brace yourself" part. I was eating my dinner while watching and this warning caused me to quickly swallow thing I had in mouth. This literally saved my monitor from getting dirty :O Ridiculous thing this rifling is.

[@TheNetsrac]

very odd but interesting gun, thanks for sharing It's always a joy to watch these videos

[@djstief8190]

Oh, and I grew up in the suburb of Enfield, with the Enfield factory 6 doors down. Loved the bikes, loved the guns.

[@seanlander9321]

Quite intriguing

[@iainburgess8577]

Fascinating concept, and fascinating implementation. Thanks for sharing!

[@libsareevil1]

I love the unique,weird and rare weapons this channel and a few others present and give background on. Love the channel.

[@RoyalArmouries]

Thanks big Jim

[@toxiecrusader5323]

Glad to seeing firearms from my own country I didn't think we had many of our own firearms

[@Matt-md5yt]

I don't blame you, the country laws are wacky. but hey you guys and gals have great Nerf events

[@alonsocushing2263]

@@Matt-md5yt Our 'wacky' laws are supported by most of us Aussies and we don't have too many mass shootings either. But hey, if you blokes are happy with that.

[@toxiecrusader5323]

@@alonsocushing2263 mass shootings yeah right there been alot of shooting in my area.. I like gel blaster range Matt the closest to Airsoft we can get

[@ashleysmith3106]

There used to be plenty of Post-WW2 sporting .22s e.g. Sportco, Westarms, Angasomatic, Lincoln Arms to name a few. And there were plenty of Australian Gunsmiths producing guns in the Colonial Era.

[@BenCarpenterWrites]

Very cool. "Not as good as the Sten".... OUCH 😆

[@jonesy279]

Another entry into our proud Aussie history of making weird, but cool, military oddities!

[@jamieknight326]

This video is brilliantly made and really interested. I love your presenting style and humour. Thanks for creating these. I can’t wait to come visit the museum in Leeds one day :)

[@RoyalArmouries]

Thanks so much for the feedback Jamie. See you in Leeds soon!

[@trull122]

I am impressed with all the creative experimentation

[@Ihasanart]

Cobalt Kinetics make fancy high end 3-Gun AR-15's with a lower that auto ejects the mag and auto bolt releases on new mag insertion.

[@willallen7757]

The original Ar-15, M16 was intended to have preloaded disposable mags but it just resulted in inferior malfunctioning mags.

[@LUR1FAX]

Yep. Even the later versions of the aluminium AR mags with the improved followers, suffer from fragility. If dropped on the ground or on a rock, or stepped on or something, they can get dented in a way that's not obvious visually, but enough to cause malfunctions. As for steel mags, they are more than twice as heavy.

[@johnfisk811]

I understand that the very original intention with the Sten Machine Carbine was to have the magazines as disposable. Not in the sense that you used them and threw them away but that a faulty magazine was to be exchanged at unit level. Discipline inertia meant that soldiers were being charged with mishandling if they reported a faulty magazine. The idea was that the speed and quality of mass wartime production meant that some would be below par and the unit replacement was the last line of quality control. Mind you, I have seen squaddies opening beer bottles with L2A3 magazines so perhaps the large shouty Armourer Sergeant was right……

[@jameshealy4594]

I agree with your statement but feel it's important to point out that the "inferiority" was almost certainly caused by the (re)use, not necessarily the magazines themselves. I have zero experience of war or ARs, but surely if the magazines had actually been used once and discarded, those issues would have been largely or completely avoided?

[@willallen7757]

@@jameshealy4594 Good point, but I can see a soldiers reluctance to toss out a magazine.

[@jacklurcher5813]

I heard that was the thinking behind the Radway Green magazines on the L85A1 (SA80). Led to no end of stoppages. M16 mags, (courtesy of our friends across the pond) were actually a huge improvement…

[@sargeantreyna2286]

I actually would like to see weapons reviews, I imagine it would be pretty entertaining, especially contrasting which funkier designs are less ergonomic lol

[@RamadaArtist]

"What if we designed a pistol, but it went too far back?" "Ummm, okay?" "But it ALSO went too far forward!" "You mean like while it's cycling?" "No no, just when it sits there."

[@michaelrussell2891]

nce and weird and wacky just what we need

[@badas45]

Very cool

[@alexeysaphonov232]

It looks like a standard UK long-pistol.

[@jonathanferguson1211]

Nah - the barrel is too short...

[@gunsforevery1]

I thought this was going to be some “UK Legal” configurations that I’ve seen.

[@marmite8959]

Where do you get your desk chocolate? 👀

[@mickymondo7463]

The funky buttstock loks like he used part of an umbrella to fabricate it from.

[@Krejii05]

As an Australian i never heard of this gun, but now i want one

[@robertmansfield7656]

Me 2. But unless it's semi auto only it ain't happening.

[@Krejii05]

@@robertmansfield7656 well, start a nuclear war, then you can probably own one :D although it wouldn’t be for long

[@CJBrunt]

Do you perchance have any of Mr. Robinson's .50cals in the Collection.?

[@RoyalArmouries]

Maybe...

[@CatsT.M]

Someone should make a game set in old Australia that has weird guns like this.

[@cbtillery135]

If it played like New Vegas it would be the best game ever

[@neilcook4686]

​@@cbtillery135 Fallout 5: New South Wales - "War never fackin' changes, mate"

[@cbtillery135]

@@neilcook4686 I'd play the shit out of that so long as it didn't play like Fallout 4

[@thereub8166]

Shout out to the hellaflush floorplate!🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@alanfike]

They put a damn lot of designing for this pistol. Very interesting.

[@lazorr3260]

What an absolutely wild design. I'd love to see this in the range

[@grahampalmer9337]

Superficially looks like a 1911; or, with the double stack mag & width, the BDA. I was thinking 'Blish' less than a minute before you said it. 🙂 That thing has a fantastic brace of crap collectors - specifically the mud tray at the rear of the frame.

[@MikhaelHausgeist]

Those experimental guns are so sick! They essentially are topic which make me interrested in guns in general! Mean mechanics, tweaks of existing guns, how it kind a cristalize. They incredibly interresting! EM-3? I never heared about, but damn it be bombshell actually get known about! This gun in video have increadible concept and honestly I think it is possible to renovate it and make viable... It is unbeliveably sad it gone obscure. I understand no one who can make newer version are inerrested in this gun, but hell... Hope some one do something like it! It deserve to be reincarnated.

[@FlyboyHelosim]

Me: "Mom, can we get the RoboCop gun?" Mom: "We've got a RoboCop gun at home!" **the RoboCop gun at home**

[@MsZeeZed]

12:13 - its the 0.007 pistol 😹

[@vevenaneathna]

3D guns sometimes have rifling on the outside of barrel due to US atf rules requiring rifling on pistols but they are essentially useless or even harmful in polymer barrels. Also the savage pistols used the torque from bullet spin as a proper lockup and when multiplied by the lever arm of their cam it offers a couple ft lbs of torque for lockup for the very brief time the projectile is accelerating

[@derekp2674]

With respect, US and ATF rules are crazy. Here in the UK, any "barrelled weapon" that can discharge a bullet (or other projectile) with a potentially lethal velocity (or energy) will be controlled as a firearm. Individual pressure bearing components, including barrels and breech mechanisms are also controlled as firearms. Now that this episode has dropped, I will look into calculating the rotational inertia and torques in the Savage 1907 and the MAB 15. However in the light of the "Ask Ian" video and the numbers derived so far for the SR11, I expect that the torque values will be quite small.

[@SpecJack15]

This is such a wild machine pistol!

[@MythicMagus]

I really love seeing crazy one-off designs like this. Also why you gotta tease us with that weird rifle you mentioned? I hope you'll do an episode on that thing.

[@uncletiggermclaren7592]

That is a FANTASTIC piece of engineering. But would it work once it got hot?.

[@derekp2674]

The barrel bushing that links the side to the spiral grooves on the barrel would need to be designed to cope with the thermal expansion of the barrel, otherwise the mechanism would tend to jam up.

[@thepenultimateninja5797]

I've definitely noticed some torque when shooting powerful revolvers. It makes the muzzle of the gun describe small circles during recoil. That being said, the effect is so negligible that there's no point making a complex mechanism to compensate for it. I liked the Blish lock analogy. I think the Nagant gas seal revolver is another example of a needlessly complex design to compensate for something that just doesn't really matter.

[@watchtheworld7840]

Reminds me of how I take apart my airsoft m1911 and stick the mag between the slide and frame down where the recoil spring would be and pretend its a mp40 or something. Neat gun, I love the outside spiral as a design thing (or cooling system like having fins?) on firearms like some of the exposed slide m1911 airsoft pistols

[@ferdinand12390]

and i thought only the Germans made weird and needlessly overcomplicated stuff...

[@Oppetsismiimsitsitc]

You should see what the Aussies did to the STEN.

[@ferdinand12390]

@@Oppetsismiimsitsitc you mean the AUSTEN, the F1 or the Owen?

[@Oppetsismiimsitsitc]

@@ferdinand12390 Only ONE of those is a Sten gun. The AUSTEN.

[@zoiders]

Jim Sulliivan was one of the most recent proponents of constant recoil IIRC.

[@jonathanferguson1211]

Indeed, with Reed Knight Jr also.

[@nfsm654]

A little birdy told me there might be another sneaky "Robbie Gun" around Royal Armouries and if that's true I'd love to see it. Cheers Jonathan and team.

[@derekp2674]

I believe that is correct. There is an entry in the online museum collection database for a "Model 21".

[@nfsm654]

@@derekp2674 It might be three total then. The one I'd heard about was the SR-9 (I think). A large calibre rifle, anyway (.50cal I want to say)

[@robertmansfield7656]

​@@derekp2674 model 21 was a US .30 tank MG.

[@robertmansfield7656]

@@nfsm654 There was also a model SR14 equivalent to the browning .50 BMG M3, reportedly with the recoil being close to the .303 . The receiver was lighter and smaller than the browning

[@BeefaloBart]

Before watching the video was thinking it was an externally rifled system like the Swedish Airgun company that uses externally pressed rifling on their inner barrel. They make superb accuracy since they were able to try many different twist rates for pellets and slugs.

[@TheLoxxxton]

God! Hard-core maths!! Let's have some weird flintlock stuff😂

[@RoyalArmouries]

See you next week ;)

[@derekp2674]

@@RoyalArmouries I'm sure I could apply 'hard core maths' to flintlocks but it wouldn't be a five minute job. A good simulation might need to model the random aspects within the action of the flint on the frizzen and then the propagation of those uncertainties into the ignition of the powder in the pan and the subsequent initiation of the main powder charge. It could be a fun project for someone, but a lot of supporting data, eg from high speed footage, could be needed to validate models and assumptions.

[@richn66]

Great video, sound is now fine

[@RoyalArmouries]

Good to hear! ;)

[@zecaoalfredo4242]

I've actually been searching for a constant recoil pistol for a while now and after finally seeing one, i still like the idea, but the execution itself needs some work, mainly make the gun fire from a closed bolt for better accuracy

[@mozzy207]

This definitely needs to be in a video game

[@jopeteus]

It ejects the magazine? Good luck trying to find them if you are fighting in a jungle

[@molochi]

That's a feature with disposable magazines. Don't have troops complaining about how the gun misfeeds because they reused a mag that wasn't supposed to be reused.

[@martinwinther6013]

it wasnt intended for a frontline combatrole. cmon. did you even watch the vid?

[@jopeteus]

@@martinwinther6013 I commented before watching jfl But if you had the ability to deduce, you'd known that and not needing to ask

[@martinwinther6013]

@@jopeteus How so?? Oh.. you think timestamps are accurate and something people actually look at? No, its pretty obvious, and confirmed by your reply here. You did NOT watch the vid before commenting. Simple

[@jonathansmith6050]

I guess to avoid the muzzle dip when the slide clonks forward you could build something like this using a rebated rim cartridge which would allow it to go full on Oerlikon with a true advance primer ignition design - so recoil reverses the bolt motion before it ever hits the back of the barrel. (But that's not a standard military pistol round, and API adds size and complexity to the gun)

[@derekp2674]

I agree that would help this concept work much better, as would allowing the barrel some axial or azimuthal float relative to the frame. Also, I think a design change to closed bolt operation would have fixed the design's problems with accuracy in semi-automatic.

[@caeserromero3013]

It's a full auto selfie stick 🤣

[@chooseyouhandle]

Constantly recoiling sounds very promising. What other guns do that?

[@onii-chandaisuki5710]

MP40 smg and the AA-12 shotgun. There's most likely more but those two are the famous ones that do.

[@F1ghteR41]

Singaporean Ultimax 100 and its related design, Knights LMG are probably the most well-known for this feature. Their designer, Jim Sullivan is, I believe, still working on something along these lines.

[@MrSolLeks]

I'v fired a Thompson and felt that front chunk, then the recoil of the bolt hitting the back. it really felt like the gun was rocking back and forth. Did not really feel the same on the MP40 I fired, though being 9mm with lesser bolt mass I may have just not noticed it so much like the big old 45 Thompson bolt.

[@andieslandies]

Great video, as always! Also, for me, serendipitously timed. It was only today that I was thinking of your channel and wondering if The Royal Armouries had any of these weapons in its collection. I've handled one example in the collection that I work with and it is, unfortunately, less functional than the one you've shown us here.

[@jonathanferguson1211]

Interesting! Are you able to say where that is?

[@andieslandies]

@@jonathanferguson1211 the Australian War Memorial in Canberra

[@jonathanferguson1211]

@@andieslandies Thank you, I'm not as familiar as I'd like to be with their collection.

[@Cahirable]

I love Russell S. Robinson's firearm and ammunition designs. Perhaps not practical and in some cases certainly a dead end development, but mechanically fascinating and interesting in theory

[@JaykPuten]

Jonathan needs to do the voiceover for that overview of the royal armouries museum video they recently did using text to (mangled) speech Sorry unrelated to video, but the thought just entered my head

[@RoyalArmouries]

Noted ;)

[@memofromessex]

I'd love to see you cover the Borchardt C93 or the "Red 9" Mauser C96! I'm no gun nut, but I appreciate design and engineering.

[@Mr_T_Badger]

They did cover a carbine version of the C96 just recently actually. Maybe three weeks ago?

[@verrueckteriwan]

This kinda looks like somebody tries to build a Stetschkin APS from memory with only having 1911 parts ^^ Very interesting piece with some weird, but also cool features, I wonder where it would have gone if it was developed further.

[@derekp2674]

I think additional work on this project would have resulted in lessons learnt for the design of compact but accurate SMGs and PDWs. Between the more recent Western and Eastern block efforts, much of the 'heavy lifting' has been done for the Stechkin, Skorpion and the H&K MP5K and MP7. To improve first round accuracy, all of these fire from closed bolts (did Robinson carry over an open bolt mindset from his work for machine guns?). With modern light weight polymer receivers and frames, there could be more scope for cunning mechanisms to apply constant recoil principles without producing an unduly heavy weapon.

[@shaeleable]

I know of this gun from a series of books written by an aussie author (pulpy stories around sydney gangs focusing on a character called les norton) and he mentions in the book that the barrel was to help absorb the recoil as part of the constant recoil system - how accurate this is, is anyones guess but it seems more likely than countering rifling twist

[@derekp2674]

That's not what the inventor says in his Patent, US3738044. From Newton's laws of motion, the recoil impulse cannot be avoided but clever mechanisms can change the nature of how that recoil impulse is felt by the shooter.

[@shaeleable]

@@derekp2674 ahh thanx, as I said this was just from a pulp book that used it, not the most credible source but the only time I had heard of the gun before

[@krzysztofgadysz3204]

So the rifling is actually an answer to a question that nobody felt the need to ask.

[@julianmhall]

The problem with an auto eject magazine is if you lose track of how many rounds are left and it drops out unexpectedly. I'm reminded of the iconic Dirty Harry '... do ya feel lucky?' scene (yes I KNOW he had a revolver).

[@jeremymcadam7400]

If you're out of bullets it doesn't matter if the mag falls out or not

[@ironwolfF1]

Just I guess on my part, but if you locked the 'shoulder stock' into your arm pit, that would mitigate the nose drop of the pistol, and enhance it's tactical 'point-ability'. (...given that the shoulder stock is next to useless when placed in it's traditional location) Any documentation (and photos) of the pistol's 'manual or arms' and tactical employment might clear up some questions.

[@Nuovoswiss]

The "nose dropping when the slide slams forward" should only be an issue for dry-firing (so... not a problem?). If there's a round chambered, there's almost no delay between the slide stopping and the bullet going off, creating rearward recoil again.

[@DSlyde]

The only other automatic magazine ejection I can think of is one of Cobalt Kinetic's AR15 designs for competition. I'd be interested to know if there were any others.

[@somedumbguy0]

The M1 garand famously ejects empty clips. Given the context of this gun, the was probably the inspiration.

[@JunkyardBashSteve]

it looks as if someone saw a partially disassembled 1911 and went "yeah that looks good make it automatic"

[@tarmaque]

Amazing. The _only_ redeeming feature I can see in this hairball is the double-stack/double-feed magazine.

[@GazalAlShaqab]

It works (the fluted barrel) for nothing, but it looks NICE! Thanks for showing, it is a platypus' cousin for sure.

[@dancing_odie]

Man, what I would do to get my hands on the racks and racks of guns behind you...

[@derekp2674]

Get a job as a cleaner at Royal Armouries?

[@Eulemunin]

Feeding the algorithm

[@Oldtanktapper]

This is what happens when a gun designer gets into licking cane toads.

[@user-ze7if7tr9o]

It is Russell Robinson pistol. Patent US3738044.

[@jeffturnbull9661]

There were a few 1911s modified with forward mounted (Thompson ?) pistol grips, I wonder if a similar arrangement might have served to mitigate the muzzle "dig" of this weapon

[@robertsmith4681]

At first glance I thought this was somebody getting creative with the concept of a "pistol" to annoy gun grabbers ... SMG seems like kind of a terrible idea in that form however.

[@connorbarabe5772]

I vaguely recall seeing a more modern gun with similar barrel grooves, only it was a delayed blowback. I believe the idea was to "lock" the action while the bullet was in the barrel, since the friction on the rifling tried to twist the barrel the opposite direction.

[@derekp2674]

one such example would be the MAB PA-15, as discussed here by the Chap kzbin.info/www/bejne/aXjGcqyHl92Sd9U An earlier such design was the 1907 Savage as examined here kzbin.info/www/bejne/aXjGcqyHl92Sd9U by Forgotten Weapons.

[@connorbarabe5772]

@derekp2674 Thanks, I found out about the Savage earlier but I didn't know about the MAB. The gun I'd seen with a spiral grooved barrel is the Chinese QX-04 pistol. Same mechanism, more expensive to machine than those other guns, which I'd say is a waste of money if it didn't look so damn cool.

[@LongPeter]

Not sure why but it seems like many Australians of the era were primarily known by their middle name or a nickname. I can think of two grandparents and two older family friends who go by their middle name. Only one of them ever explained why. In that case, the parents switched her first and middle names so that her initials wouldn't spell a racial slur.

[@F1ghteR41]

Your story reminds me of an anecdote from the first half of the nineteenth century about a Russian colonel Rantseff, who married into a noble Baltic German Sass family, which insisted on taking the double-barreled surname & placing the German part first (Sass-Rantseff). The result turned out to be obscene in Russian (basicaly meaning 'Sh*tter', but more properly 'he who sh*ts all over himself'), and so the colonel was ordered by the emperor Nicholas I to switch the surnames around to Rantseff-Sass.

[@RoyalArmouries]

Things we didn't think we'd learn this morning! Thanks so much for sharing

[@Aeropunk08]

My grandparents and most of my great Aunts and Uncles usually used their middle names. Not 100% sure why, but I do think that using a name like Leslie instead of Herman may have raised a lot less eyebrows during WW2.

[@Mr_T_Badger]

Speaking of Robocop’s gun, does the Armouries have access to an Auto-9? I mean, sure, it’s just a Beretta M93R with some gubbins attached, but it would make a fun WITW episode.

[@TSKNBgaming]

8:08 although most modern pistols help the user, by popping the magazines little bit after you press the mag release. Because the slide catch presses the magazine feeding part down, so after the magazine is empty pressing the mag release will pop out the magazine just enough so that it is faster to reload.

[@jonathanferguson1211]

For the most part that's a) the follower exerting pressure on the slide release and b) some nice wide clearances in the magwell. Browning Hi-Power variants do have a separate magazine assist spring though, probably others that I'm blanking on.

[@derekp2674]

I think 'freely dropping' pistol magazines have only become a big thing since the development of sports like 'practical pistol' where reloads are done on the clock.

[@TSKNBgaming]

@@jonathanferguson1211 thats what i ment its just my crappy english so i didn't know the proper names of the parts

[@TSKNBgaming]

@@jonathanferguson1211 @derekp2674 i've seen it on lots of pistols, even in traumatik pistols that aren't even sports pistols or regular pistols. Those that have the type of magazines, that have little open spot in the side of follower that i wrote earlier. Although now that you mentioned it, i just googled the glock magazines and saw that the little spot for example in at least regular glock magazines aren't deep enough for the "mag pop up" instead it is just enough to keep the slide back after the mag is empty. But for example Zoraki 914 (& 917, 918, etc) magazines has that small spot deeper, and they pop up like that as well. Many pocket pistols too that has those similar to Makarov type lever instead of normal mag release button because otherwise it is harder to reload it faster. Can't on top of my head remember better examples either, but i googled smith wesson 1006 (even though i've never handled one myself) and saw it has that same deeper spot in it as well which also slighty pops out when you press the button i watched a video about it just to give one example. It is not very noticeable though, like i mentioned it is just slight helper but that's the type of spot in magazine what i ment on most modern pistols.

[@Serilleous]

So silly question: Does the torsion action on the barrel rotation actually have spring behind it? I could certainly see that as a way to implement a constant-recoil system without a single massively heavy recoil spring (or some compound compression spring arrangement).

[@derekp2674]

In this example, the recoil spring drives the slide in the usual way and the barrel bushing is keyed to fit the spiral grooves on the barrel. So as the slide moves, the barrel rotates.

[@mavvh1054]

Honestly, I'd watch shorts of Jonathan reviewing firearms' pros and cons.

[@RoyalArmouries]

Watch this space

[@jonathanferguson1211]

@@RoyalArmouries Unfortunately, I don't wear them.

[@peterrobbins2862]

An interesting concept and weapon would have been interesting to see how it went in the extremely close quarter jungle fighting of new Guinea and the islands , personally id have preferred an owen gun which was lighter more practical and better suited to the close quarter conditions and environment than a lot of the alternative weapons others are suggesting and using as comparisons

[@Corazair]

Unrelated to this specific video, I know you all have a brief video of the American Civil War, but what is the extent of your collection in relation? One of your videos helped me identify the Colt pocket percussion pistol that I am still trying to find a local gunsmith to tackle and has honestly made me consider enrolling in SDI because if anyone would work on Civil War era firearms, they would be around Tennessee/Kentucky. When we found that gun, I was told there was a muzzle-loader but we had no idea where it was and we found it today. It was nearly tossed into a dumpster. From all I can gather it is a Leman, but I've yet to find a single picture that matches what we have.

[@GMT439]

The best PDW is something like a DRACO with a side folding stock. Reliable and more effective in all ways than any pistol based weapon.

[@hammertoolz]

While as an aussie I want to like it, I must admit firing a rifle or pistol I have never felt the firearm twist due to the rifling. The engineer in me likes that it tried to take it into account and the sales man, says near enough it good enough.

[@derekp2674]

One possible real world aspect of 'spin kick' or recoil torque could be that screwed on moderators/suppressors may work loose, if the 'spin kick' works to unscrew the barrel relative to the moderator. When I used to use a SIG P210-5, where the foresight is held onto the extra long barrel by two threaded collars, those always used to work loose, so that might also have been related to spin kick.

[@martinwinther6013]

sum1 with acces to firearms, plz get this man a sigsauer p220 , subversion with the safety/fireselect? on the sledge/slide. theyre doing a great job, but they dont have this specific model in their collection

[@derekp2674]

Why in particular do you think that should be a "must get" for the Royal Armouries collection? I believe they have around 50 assorted machine pistols but only semi auto P220s.

[@martinwinther6013]

@@derekp2674 Its the first(contemporary) item ive seen them come to short of, thats all there is to it. Could almost feel the pain when Jonathan had to tell us they didnt have it.

[@derekp2674]

@@martinwinther6013 I can think of much more historically significant firearms that aren't in their collection of roughly 10,000 assorted firearms. For example, when I was a keen smallbore target rifle shooter, Anschutz target rifles were the most popular make. But no examples are held in the Royal Armouries collection. In contrast they seem to have nine assorted P220s already.

[@martinwinther6013]

@@derekp2674 Yesyes.. and Holland and Holland would also be nice. An Anschutz cost a freaking fortune, a sig can be obtained for some few 100 dollarinos. And isnt it mostly just sportingriffles they make anyways? like lightweight accuracy for olympic ski-shooting and stuff like that?? Theres a limit to what I would ask a random guy on the web for

[@derekp2674]

@@martinwinther6013 Well you don't need to only buy brand new firearms for a museum collection and items can also be received as donations. UK firearms certificates limit the number of rifles that any individual can own, so that most obsolete rifles end up being either given away or surrendered to the police. The latter was almost the fate suffered by my 1968 vintage Anschutz Standard rifle, but a local gun dealer paid me £20 for it instead. So the Royal Armouries could have easily acquired a representative collection of smallbore rifles from the era when BSA and Vickers rifles had ceased to be the most popular choices for keen shooters. On the plus side, there are many of the latter in the collection, but accompanying documentation may be quite sparse. To its credit, the Museum at Leeds does have a whole gallery devoted to sporting and target firearms. However, the arms actually chosen for display there give the impression that they have been selected by someone with no current or prior involvement in the shooting sports. I think that represents a bit of a shortfall, given the Museum's obvious interest in recording and presenting the social history around their firearms.

[@CJBrunt]

If the rotating barrel fully compensated for the twist imparted on the barrel by the bullet engraving in the internal rifling, wouldn't the bullet fly forward engraved but un-spun as the barrel rotated around it?

[@aussiebloke609]

Other way around. By using the external "rifling" to keep the weapon from rotating, the bullet would actually reach full spin - in regular weapons, that twisting motion of the weapon actually detracts from what spin gets imparted to the projectile. But as he said, the effect is so minimal it's not worth the effort.

[@MarcinP2]

I think the barrel would have to spin slower than the bullet and that makes sense because the barrel is a) heavier and b) more distant from the axis giving it much higher rotational inertia and calling for less rotation speed to counter.

[@derekp2674]

@@MarcinP2 Relative to the bullet, the barrel will definitely have a much higher rotational moment of inertia and a much lower speed of revolution.

[@MarkH0865]

It needs a tripod at the front to counter the dip down 😂

[@cosmo9882]

very cool, I like the barrel but I'm not sure why.🤔