"Ruined By Lazy Policies" - Harvard Professor Roland Fryer Explains The Downfall of DEI

[@kplay8589]

Wonderful example of 2 people agreeing and disagreeing respectfully. No shouting, no name calling, no funny business. Felt soooo good to just listen without holding my breath about who's going to start shouting or being offended next. Seriously people, just have normal conversations (disagreements) and have patience to listen to one another out.

[@coastcity7029]

DEI is not focused on talent, it's focused on fulfilling a racial quota. I learned this the hard way. 15 years ago, when I got into a Ph.D. program in Cali, the small cohort of 8-10 students only had 1 spot for a white man. The other spots had to be filled by-- a white woman, a black woman, a Hispanic guy, a lesbian woman, a disabled woman, and so on. Those are not examples, that's how it was. DEI disadvantages everyone when your eligibility is determined by race/gender/etc. You also end up competing against and taking the spot of the other minorities in your "category." There's fewer opportunities available to you because positions are filled by the diversity quota.

[@friarnewborg9213]

That's CRAZY. that sort of Hiring Process needs to end

[@jondebeer6863]

My uni didn't go as hard, but they did implement a hiring stop for men at the staff level. Court ruled against it when the backlash came, but they actually used EU beaurocrats to make it happen anyway. And they're proud of it. Left academia asap, but it's just as bad in the industry. World is properly fucked.

[@jackal7610]

So the black professor in a tortured way is arguing for socioeconomic factors not race. He also argues for merit. DEI is morally opposed to merit.

[@hmmm2357]

How so

[@chiefwahoo4547]

The guy is not being honest. He thinks you are too stupid to see he is a DEI supporter and sad they cannot brainwash the masses to support it.

[@theecharmingbilly]

DEI is all about quotas snd getting enough of this'n and that'n and making sure you leave ol jimbo at the lake.

[@Xeranx]

@hmmm2357 Despite how they align the words, Diversity + equity ≠ inclusion. What they're after is equity or equality of outcome. So putting things in order without the veneer of "this is good overall" it's skin color (with heavy application of black followed by non-white) + forced integration of ideas or ideology = equal outcomes for all because everyone thinks the same despite their skin color variation. It's not a good thing. It engineers the common denominator and that common denominator is wherever all meet the lowest point relatively easily and then they somehow/some way Harrison Bergeron it up hoping for outstanding results. I hope that makes sense.

[@condomgraveyard666]

Well if the applicant is black with slightly higher margins of score, they would never even consider the white candidates “work ethic” or “obstacles” it took to get there.

[@fulltimefather-parttimehero]

I see what he’s saying. It feels like he says in some cases someone has huge obstacles they overcome to succeed and if they are slightly lower than someone with less obstacles, then maybe they have a higher chance for success. But he didn’t say skin color was the factor, which I appreciate. He mentioned economical status, etc… the issue is that colleges take the lazy approach.

[@annmhmoore0771]

Many people in society have many obstacles to overcome in the real world. More people have obstacles to overcome than not.

[@vladchiriac2101]

He did actually say that race should be taken into account.

[@fulltimefather-parttimehero]

@@annmhmoore0771 - obviously most people have some, but we are talking about more wide spread life issues for children. If you go to a well funded school, you're more likely to have good teachers and a better opportunity to have a more well rounded learning experience.

[@64kimmyjo]

@@fulltimefather-parttimeheromost schools suck unless they are in a really rich neighborhood

[@orianna9]

So great to see PBD and the prof connect over sports and particularly to focus on where they agree while still articulating how they differ. THIS IS EVERYTHING. 🙏💥🎯

[@GenialGeek]

I disagree. DEI should have no place in admissions.

[@1czechit1]

Kentanji, Karine, and Kamala is proof of that. LOL KKK.

[@grod805]

Isn't the best part of America that poor people can get educated and climb up the social ladder?

[@1czechit1]

@@grod805 and not blame someone else??? bu-but... you can't do that!

[@tankerd1847]

Personally, I don't have anything against giving the kid who came up from nothing a chance if he is otherwise equal to the kid who came from money and you only have one spot. I don't think it should have anything to do with color or creed though, ever. Come up with all the metrics you want to judge one candidate or one prospective student against the other, but keep biology, religion, sexual preference and political opinion clear out of it. If you take two candidates with equal scores on objective metrics, you shouldn't pick one over the other for being black, or gay, or Muslim. Certain things should not be used to discriminate, whether it's in your favor or against it.

[@Dukeblue1]

Also legacies should have no place in admissions.

[@chumaokafo755]

These are the best kinds of conversations. No matter what side you fall on it's great to have your position challenged once in a while. Thanks PBD for putting this thoughtful and compassionate human being on the podcast. More of this please.

[@beetlejuice4693]

DEI is racist

[@LickVIP]

4:55 4:55 4:55 4:55 WELCOME TO RACISM 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

[@willtuft413]

I think the fact that the world had to give birth to it is sad. The denial that there was never a strange dynamic to create a dei situation is delusional!

[@justmyopinion9883]

DEI is another word for the N word.

[@tonderaitchikodzore8052]

I have noticed DEI is supported by black people because it helps them considering the many disadvantages they face. And white Republicans hate it because they feel it unfairly helps black people. Black people care about lifting up their communities finding different solutions and DEI is one solution. Republicans care about complaining about black crime and talking down on black people especially on fox without giving any solutions. If Republicans cared about fairness they would start with Legacies which helps majority of white people but having black people having upward mobility infuriates them. Now l get why black people support Democrats

[@KemetledAfrica]

How is it racism when white women benefit from it

[@ivan.ranger]

Being in distress from not having enough or being born in the wrong setting, doesn’t grant a free pass to the right amount of resources. It’s like being stranded in the dessert and expecting water to appear…what are you going to do if it doesn’t!

[@L9r5c]

I think you have taken his point wrong. In business terms, if you have two companies in the same industry. One is doing 15mil in revenue from a 1mil seed round investment and another thats doing 8mil off a 50k seed round. Which company has the most potential?

[@realitycheck6333]

@@L9r5c To be honest, if the current DEI practices appeared to even be giving a fraction of the amount of thought to them that you're giving right now, I wouldn't have nearly as big of a problem with them, even if I still was in disagreement. Where it currently sits is "Company, industry, more black people, you're racist".

[@L9r5c]

@@realitycheck6333 agreed, Im black and I’m against what DEI is today. Basically, diversity for the sake of diversity…make matters worse they have morphed it to “you must participate in my abnormal, none work related lifestyle”

[@adamjames642]

@@realitycheck6333 And along with most of us in the comments, Roland disagrees with current DEI practices. The point is to be able to identify higher potential in performance measurements. If two people ran a race and the times were 9.9 vs 9.89, but the 9.89 had a weighted vest on, If you were picking a team of competitors, you'd want the 9.89 runner because they have a higher potential to run faster than 9.9. We aren't saying that the 9.9 loses the current race. What we're saying is, down the line, the 9.89 runner is better Again, this is all under the assumption that the difference in current performance is mimiscule.

[@LimpMind]

​@@adamjames642 The solution to this is not to ignore the better runner because the other has more potential, the first one is faster and deserves to win. We need to focus on removing the vest from the other runner first and to see if there is an improvement. This hypothetical vest is not guaranteed to limit their best in reality which is why the best should be focused at least till the other can show a better upper limit with any reasonable possible limitations removed.

[@mump71]

I grew up in a low income rural area, it’s not about race it’s about income.

[@briandstephmoore4910]

In a perfect world what this man is saying is absolutely logical. But the world isn’t perfect and the simplest best way to cut through all the noise is strictly merit based.

[@generalwrecking]

AGREED !! And If BLACK and BROWN people KNOW THAT from GRADE 1 they will WORK harder Because they WONT be able to rely on SKIN COLOR !!

[@angeljimenez5991]

For the most part but “merit-based metrics” like standardized tests aren’t perfect either. But I can see your point in that what he is saying is unfortunately not something that is attainable because of politics in academia and a misunderstanding of what things like diversity and inclusion should entail. I feel like what a lot of people in the comments don’t get is that it’s equally as bad to say that race never matters just as much as saying that it has to always matter.

[@tonderaitchikodzore8052]

Start by dealing with legacies first, but you wont as it helps the desired race gtfoh

[@briandstephmoore4910]

@@tonderaitchikodzore8052 what did I do to offend you? I’m of the poor class just like you what power do you think I or we hold over some legacy? I or we are not your enemy here.

[@tonderaitchikodzore8052]

​@@briandstephmoore4910 l apologize brother, not my intention to offend you. Its just that anything that seems to advance black people in general is usually shut down by Republicans, yet they are the one who profit over talking talking down on them eg. Fox news. without any solutions to uplift black communities

[@sellingsunshine]

I found this conversation very interesting. No matter how simple I want this subject to be, in actuality there is a lot more nuance. Great podcast.

[@alexh7064]

I've worked in recruiting in tech for nearly a decade. Racist hiring practices due to DEI runs rampant. I can't count the number of times people in my company would talk about creating a confidential spreadsheet of black applicants/candidates to track to help us hire more black people. I had to constantly remind hiring managers that's ILLEGAL.

[@Canterbury92]

Roland is brilliant thank you for having him on!!

[@albow4oops5]

Words mean specific things. DEI and affirmative action mean certain things, meritocracy means something specific. You can't have both.

[@moneymaker7307]

Merit also mean certain thing. It is practically impossible to find the best 100 of anything, not to mention finding the best 2,000 students yearly. Harvard admits 2000 students yearly. Schools like Harvard have enough, and this country as a whole has enough to include as many people as possible seeking high-quality education up to the standards of Harvard. I worked in the scouting department of an NFL team with millions of dollars in yearly budget. It was still almost impossible to find the best players consistently, even with access to large amounts of data on each player.

[@albow4oops5]

@moneymaker7307 that's why there are tests. I'm sure, however, that you just let anyone on your roster if they said they were really good, right?

[@calikeisha365]

Why can’t you have both? Affirmative action does not mean every veteran will get a government job. It means the qualified veterans get extra points in the application process. DEI does not mean that every disabled person will get the job it means they’re going to get an opportunity to apply and not be excluded from the process.

[@moneymaker7307]

Cooperation and the people who own this country have pulled the wool over most people's eyes, so that many cannot see what is going on. Conservative racists believe that if everything were fair and equal, they would be the ones attending these highfalutin institutions because, by default, they consider themselves more intelligent and more deserving than a so-called "DEI candidate." Many liberals who work in these institutions believe that the so-called cooperation they work for supports diversity and inclusion, because of how it pays lip service to the topic and how quickly it fires someone. The same thing applies to immigration. Tell people that illegal immigrants are a threat to their way of life, but the truth is that legal migration has a much greater impact on people than illegal immigrants ever could.

[@adamjames642]

While you are correct, he is saying to add points into the meritocracy bucket for difficulty of challenge. If you and I played a video game, you beat it on lvl 1 while I beat it on lvl 10, while we both completed the game, I get extra points for beating a harder level. The same goes for education. If you have a 3.9 while having access to private tutoring and I have a 3.8 without any additional assistance, talent scouts should be able to recognize that I'm playing on a harder level. Just to be clear, RACE is not a harder level. It is just an observable fact of your identity. Being poor, however, is definitely going through life on hard mode. This is something children have no control over.

[@1w598]

No, skin color should NOT matter in admission to anything, for a multitude of reasons across the board. People who think it's a good idea are being shortsighted & not considering the repercussions of implementing such biased & unjust policies.

[@ra-neter6662]

What are the repercussions for making it easier for a QUALIFIED poor hispanic kid tryna get into harvard ?

[@Geewasright]

@@ra-neter6662 - You hurt the feelings of wealthy wy.ts and they feel like the world is unfair and vote for Trump hoping he’ll target your community and be their retribution.

[@LimpMind]

​@@ra-neter6662 You're making it about race instead of class. If someone who is lower class shows the ability, talent, and effort, universities and colleges have grants and other programs to help these people. The race of individuals have no merit in the conversation as it has non influence over the ability to gain a skill.

[@ra-neter6662]

@LimpMind i didnt make it about race. U clearly misread where i wrote poor.

[@schwaaard]

@@ra-neter6662 To be fair, you also wrote "hispanic". 😅

[@bobmyself8819]

I'm glad this is getting traction of the younger more hip professor. But seriously, Thomas sowell practice discussion years ago

[@Letssavethecountry]

Fools gold- DEI will never lead to a better outcome for humanity

[@jeffreyrichard2575]

Agreed It won't lead to less racial resentment. It will only lead to more. That is what DEI was designed to really accomplish

[@Geewasright]

Wouldn’t exist if YT people didn’t cheat the system for 400 years.

[@realitycheck6333]

DEI really isn't the problem, it's the people behind it. Any policy being pushed by such disingenuous activists with so much internalized hate is going to have terrible results.

[@calikeisha365]

@@jeffreyrichard2575DEI is not only about RACE. What about disabled people who’ve been excluded from application process? What about the number one beneficiaries of affirmative action, white women? I’m all for meritocracy but there is no such thing as fairness in a system run by people who have biases.

[@shawnford9104]

@@calikeisha365aw so sad. If you don’t like our country go to a 3rd world country and were most people have no voice at all.

[@randy74989]

An Alternative framework called Merit, Fairness, and Equality (MFE) whereby university applicants are treated as individuals and evaluated through a rigorous and unbiased process based on their merit and qualifications alone.” What MFE would mean is that students would be admitted only because of their academic and personal achievements, not because of their ancestry or family connections. It would also mean that school personnel would be similarly chosen on merit, with no favoritism for applicants because of their race or other immutable characteristics, and no favoritism for those who espouse certain political beliefs.

[@talulah67]

The more I watch and listen to Roland the better it gets. Love it!

[@Kevin-ts7hf]

His argument crumbles pretty fast when challenged. It’s “all about talent” until perceived privilege enters the equation.

[@robburgett7956]

💯

[@dynamicwellness33]

Based!

[@adamjames642]

You actually missed it. It is about talent. I'll present what he said in a different way. Lets assume steroids were openly legal and accessible. If there were 2 athletes, 1 on the juice and 1 natural, and the natural athlete was less that 5% behind in performance. Then the ceiling is much higher than the one on the juice. The talent is is present but not being utilized yet. Back to the example of GPA. If the economically advantaged student has a gpa of 4.4 and the poor kid has 4.2. If you dig enough and find that the adv. student has a tutor, has a stable home, gets 8hrs of sleep each night and 3 meals a day, while the poor kid only gets to eat once at home, lot of comotion in the house so they don't get a full night worth of sleep and bounces place to place, then by simple logic, the poor kid has a higher potential for improvement. Again, I'm only saying this for very small differences in performance. Of course, if a kid has a 4.9 and the poor kid has a 3.0, the 3.0 shouldn't get any consideration.

[@spencerantoniomarlen-starr3069]

Look up Roland Fryer please. He is not actually for DEI at all.

[@nc2669]

"So is race a factor?" "Nn Nooooooo...."

[@historypolitics108]

DEI is how you build the losing team. MERIT is how you build the winning team. It's that simple.

[@BillzWhite]

Some people don’t even get the opportunity to have merit

[@suecolmerhor]

​@@BillzWhite opportunity doesn't just happen it's created

[@BillzWhite]

@@suecolmerhor yea for some more than others

[@hanklesacks]

@@BillzWhiteWho are these ppl?

[@historypolitics108]

@@BillzWhite DEI makes it look like we are competing with each other in the US with the DEI vs non-DEI candidates for any position. But in actuality we are not competing with each other, not in the long run. The competition is actually between citizens of the United States and the vast majority of other people in the world who desperately want to "eat our lunch." While DEI failures only accelerate US decline, other nations are demanding MERIT and excellence from their people. Just look at so many of our national brands being bought up by companies from other nations. We should be expanding & investing around the world, but instead we are barely hanging on. We need to be focusing on productivity, achievement, excellence, merit, etc.

[@XMoeiskingX]

Victim answer. He's proposing an utopian solution that will never exist without building levers that allow for extreme corruption and misuse..

[@DustMan2704]

"All Negroes are equal, but some negroes are more equal than others."

[@kyleshockley1573]

Pretty much. It pretends to be a bean-counting method to optimize and quantify the quality of someone's character and potential at a distance. Meeting and interacting with someone in real life, looking at the actual work of their hands or mind, seeing how they are on the regular and how they develop - these all seem like methods from another time. And apparently another victim of our over-dependence on tech (which is another utopian solution with heavily weighted levers). Yeah sorry, I don't think academic bureaucracies and Skynet making pyramid hierarchies are going to find or nurture the next da Vinci or Solzhenitsyn.

[@brasshouse-og]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@kyleshockley1573 there is legitimate evidence that America’s diversity does have a lot to do with our success. We have no shared culture amongst ourselves other than our hustle culture. There are large benefits to getting a more diverse people into your business. Everything this man was saying, makes perfect sense to me. There’s a difference between force-feeding diversity and thoughtful and effective merit based diversity. I see it all the time man. I take guys off the scrap pile and build their career up and help them get real money and it’s crazy how fast people grow.

[@XMoeiskingX]

@@brasshouse-og false. This is being conflated back when america had hegemony of ideals. Today half the nation thinks it’s ok to be communist. It’s not for the record. You’re falsely correlating diversity with aligned ideals..

[@dormantmenace]

It's human nature. That's why our common laws, common morals... are designed to make you humain. Not human. Just like religion or socialism. Looks good on paper. it sounds decent. But we just don't work like that.

[@renzokuken2g]

This man gets it! This professor has what a serious amount of honor, and dignity. Trying to maintain the balance is not easy.

[@EddieOrtiz-i7p]

As a Latino, I dont want special treatment or special sympathy. Its about earning merit, not communism

[@TheReneepruitt]

It isn’t skin! Poor people in General regardless of color! Because poor who’re kids and poor black kids are the same in needing help. Geez

[@rolotomassi9806]

College athletics and professional sports teams seem to find talent by letting the best compete without trying to find a quota candidate. If you want the best then you shouldn’t shift the expectations to meet the requirements.

[@azaleagirl6275]

Exactly!!! Sports is amazing because they are competing in front of our eyes, and you either got it, or you don’t. Strange how they want to lower standards but expect better outcomes.

[@Geewasright]

@@azaleagirl6275- Lower standard?

[@markarmage3776]

That's absolutely false, because professional sports teams are setting scouts all over the world to seek for potentials. The reigning MVP of the NBA, Joel Embiid was scouted in Africa, and he was not as good as other candidates at that time. But he has gigantic potential. As if you're intentionally not understanding this, buddy. DEI is not about lowering merits, it's about looking at better qualities that will eventually bring back higher returns.

[@rolotomassi9806]

@@markarmage3776 Keep believing that Buddy! You got picked last a lot didn’t you?

[@wagnersouza4463]

DEI is about lowering metrics. To me the real problem with DEI is that are pushing in upper positions. What Roland try to say, sound like a open trainee style. For example: we wanted give jobs for some black actors, so we could go to some black community and there find some talents, but the skin color here stop in "we need some black actor", after that is just talent hunter. The current DEI don't do that even around the world, usually DEI sector just need some quota and goes to some diversity agency and pay some of that are offered. And another problem with DEI is the mixed race factor. In my country that is largely mixed, the government and college bring back skull measures ( I'm not kidding there're actually racial tribunals ) to defines who is really black, brown and white.

[@82gioccia]

You don’t need a name to apply to university. It should be a social number. No gender, no race, no nationality, no district. You look at the exam results, a list of accomplishments and choose.

[@thelovelymrsbarber]

assuming everyone is receiving the same quality of education from K to 12 then I would agree

[@hanklesacks]

@@thelovelymrsbarberNobody is ever going to receive the same quality of education

[@thelovelymrsbarber]

@@hanklesacks exactly and this is why various programs are put in place for certain people who start at a disadvantage

[@Geewasright]

When Alabama and LSU’s freshman classes are all As1an kids and a couple football payers, those “southerners” are going to make sure nationally is on the application.

[@hanklesacks]

@@thelovelymrsbarber Which is only going to disadvantage others. There's no absolutes, only trade offs.

[@johnlittle4508]

As a marine when you’re standing on the yellow line, you’re all the same regardless of your race, it’s about motivation and performance.

[@mrowl609]

Honestly, he's made the best argument for DEI I've ever heard. Life obstacles can restrict one's abilities, and triumphant stories are appealing. Sadly, we all can see that the intent and the application are worlds apart.

[@AdamSpanier]

Rural poor white here. What about trailer park poverty white students? Why is urban poor black prioritized over poor rural white? I think what the professor is trying to say is race should never be used, only socioeconomic factors.

[@johnsteinman5496]

ENGINEERS HAVE GOT TO KNOW MATH ……PERIOD

[@scarletstewart3591]

Roland Fryer is such a brilliant man who focuses on prioritzing the elevation of individuals who face socioeconomic challenges within our communuties. 🙏🏾❤️🙏🏼

[@MrMp569366]

Racism is racism. I don’t care what you’re background is or what your mom and dad did or didn’t do that. Shouldn’t penalize somebody who had good parents who made sure they weren’t a good neighborhood and went to a good school self responsibility start taking it.

[@brandonarch2906]

Correlation is not causation.

[@michaellehmann2803]

The delusion is thinking that anyone can ever know all the obstacles that anyone else had to overcome, let alone even knowing what your own obstacles have been. It is an unbelievable amount of hubris that leads a person to believe they can amalgamate someone’s race and economic situation and family situation and a million other factors in their lives that led to them being the person that they are, and you can arbitrarily decide that this person had it worse than that person, and therefore the person who came out with a worse outcome should benefit more than the person that came out with a better outcome. Let the results speak for themselves, and nothing else should matter one bit.

[@sonjadeneale3474]

According to this professor, Junior and Buford that had the misfortune of being born and raised in Appalachia should be covered by DEI and affirmative action since it shouldn't be race centered.

[@schwaaard]

I think that was actually his point. He wants there to be a way to find talent that otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity to be discovered due to adverse circumstances--which can be anyone, any race, any sex. I believe his hypothesis is that such an endeavor would find that a large portion of said talent would also correspond to certain races. And if that's true, and it means that more minorities are helped by the program, fine. They aren't being helped because of their race--they're being helped because of a program designed to help anyone in need, and they just happen to be of a certain race. If we want the best, and Junior from Appalachia is awesome but couldn't afford a trip to a job interview, then he should get some help. If it means that Reggie from the Bronx would be a great fit but had to teach himself how to write a resume and didn't quite nail it, then giving him some help to get him into the mix ain't a bad idea. Also to the professor's point, such a system would be very complicated and difficult to implement. Perhaps not really even feasible. It's much harder to make decisions on a case-by-case, individual basis than just a broad, ultimately counter-productive generalization.

[@SteveSimpsonRealtor]

I don't think PBD exactly understands what Fryer is arguing for. Fryer is essentially saying that if two students have equal hard data (test scores, GPA, etc.), but one of them came from 'privilege' and the other one didn't, that there is a decent chance that the non-privileged kid would perform better and/or achieve more at an elite college than the privileged kid. He's basically attempting to solve for potential. To use a sports analogy, Fryer is arguing for taking Antonio Gates (not a stud in college football but had all the physical tools to be a great NFL TE) rather than Michael Sam (SEC defensive player of the year that was basically too small to play in the NFL). Or to use an NBA analogy, he's arguing taking Dwight Howard over Emeka Okafor. I am no fan of DEI or AA, but I think Fryers position is reasonable, if not idealistic. Implementing it would take a lot of resources and obviously involves a huge amount of subjectivity.

[@XMoeiskingX]

5:09 this dude completely ignores that most school districts that these "affirmative action" picks come from already have watered down curriculum that allow for them to be raised up already. a 4.0 at an inner city school in 12th grade is like what we learned in 8th..

[@Adrian-lx9uk]

& you have access to many more tools than the inner city kid. Growing up in the inner city (now making 6 figures comfortably) I can tell you that it’s appalling how terrible the education system is in public schools. Teachers hardly qualified to teach honors & AP level classes. Less than 10% of students end up actually succeeding & getting in a 4 year in most of these inner city schools.

[@XMoeiskingX]

@@Adrian-lx9uk cultural issue. And it shouldn’t be subsidized. You clearly were able to succeed eventually. Inner city schools were drastically better funded per student and it’s a bad investment.

[@jeffreyrichard2575]

that is why they use standardized testing .....Because you cannot trust the schools to produce the same level of education in all situations. School districts artificially inflate their graduation rates and have grade inflation to "produce " the results parents and politicians want.

[@friarnewborg9213]

THAT is why they have SAT scores. My cross-the-hall neighbor is Wigglesworth, Harvard Yard was a very bright "Double 800". But he was also a Doofus. It isn't the only thing that matters

[@jeffreyrichard2575]

@@friarnewborg9213 the SAT predicts academic success . Academics is what Harvard provides so your Doofus should go there not someone with a lower score and a more pleasing personality.

[@rsjdesouza]

I agree with Roland that the institutions take the lazy route by taking only (or mostly) race into consideration and he differs a bit from most of the DEI advocates and activists. However, what is frustrating is that the activists flatten the socioeconomic status entirely by race, and not by their actual background and "hidden score card points", which vary wildly from either Orange County or from South Chicago, Appalachia, etc. By doing this they lose a lot of support and fail to gain grounds to the most disadvantaged.

[@bryankburrs]

I agree with PBD, 💯,all day long !!!

[@cannongardner2658]

There is a reason universities and companies are moving away from DEI

[@malelefonoimoana2925]

Awesome and important convo. Thanks guys.

[@alex5308]

I really like Roland, very well spoken and also very open minded

[@Tential1]

Wild how many people think race should be a factor. You're literally advocating for racism. I know people gave me a race boost to help me out. Except, I come from money. My grand parents had money, they bought all of my family homes, and my grand father had 8 wives or something insane, so he bought a LOT of houses. Yet, I still got affirmative action. And it didn't help me. It meant, every person I met, thought I was there because I was an affirmative action. Not because I paid full tuition and had top 1% test scores.

[@danebenjaminson4443]

From a simple man. I was in the Marine Corps and I served with people from other countries such as Jamaica and China. None of us cared about color or where we grew up. We only cared about you have the same uniform and we look out for each other. I agree with give the most qualified person the job vise the most senior with the caveat of do they want that job or would they rather do something else. I know many people that have computer skills but they have zero interest doing that work, so they pretend to know nothing because if you speak up once that will be your job. I’ve found as a leader to put people where they are good at the task and they like doing that job and you will have good quality work and a happy employee. 😊

[@stgravatt]

Why is the comment section so negative on this guy? Hes pretty spot on. Race is a factor, one of many. Test scores dont measure intangibles and intangibles need to be thought of. A kid could have amazing stats on paper but faced no challenge, no failure in life. And then when he gets to the next level, he buckles real quick.

[@JudeMarchisio]

People on this comments section can't think for themselves, whatever PBD says they'll agree with, which is ironic because PBD seems like a pretty open minded guy in some regards.

[@grimm5702]

Maybe people is tired with the propaganda and buzzwords...20 years ago there was no such thing...once we start pandering to certain people because we don't wanna hurt their feelings the country got deeper into the rabbit hole and we become more of a circus....we lost all common sense...our Goal now is fake jobs fake tittles lot of stupidity in the work force,pop culture even video games..... enough is enough....

[@justmyopinion9883]

Why is the comment section negative on this guy? Because he’s Black! 😒

[@jonjohnsonreads8292]

This

[@goonofhazard2203]

Why should race be a factor? That's insane.

[@bendyben]

It’s odd that neither Pat nor Roland took the argument to its only logical conclusion. Factors which should have bearing sometimes correlate with race but race itself should not be a factor. Ergo removing the “laziness” in current practices comes from having tons of highly intelligent people figure out a way to extract and measure those factors instead of lazily using race as a proxy. Quotas are racist and lazy. As a racial minority, I’m not sure which is more offensive to me. Racial diversity as a success metric needs to be eradicated and the only way to accomplish that is by finding a way to better measure all other factors and measure how well your admissions process stacks up to them.

[@schwaaard]

Well said!

[@deserteagle7032]

I live in a country that has failed because of DEI and affirmative action etc. One problem is that many people know they will be employed because of these policies, and neglect to better themselves. Students don't bother to achieve food grades. It has become so bad that students need only 30% in their final exams to finish high school. .. so, basically they're uneducated but employable because of exclusionary policies. And then the people who are excluded have no choice but fend for themselves, so they start small businesses for themselves. And then the politicians want to know why certain members of the population own businesses and they blame "privilege". Actually it's the privileged who remain stagnant and the unprivileged who succeed

[@markparham]

affirmative action and nepotism has also helped white people get top positions in america you don't want to talk about that

[@AB-fw8qw]

“Because if the obstacles he had to overcome, if we take those into account, he would have a perfect 1600” So an unfalsifiable situation and impossible to quantify factor of “what if he was white” as it relates to SAT?

[@schwaaard]

Yeah. He does admit it would be hard--perhaps impossible--to implement something like that. But I do appreciate the notion of focusing on the individual instead of a generalization based on race or sex. I think his proposed approach only works if he is willing to also consider the obstacles every individual can face, and not just assume that someone automatically had it harder than someone else based solely on race. All that said, there is no quantifiable effect that "x" obstacle has on performance, even if everyone responds to "x" in the exact same way. Which they don't. The hypothetical student could easily have gotten the same score even without those obstacles. --There are days that I think, "Man, if I didn't have to go to work today, I coulda got a lot of stuff done!" But then, come Saturday, I'm rolling out of bed at 10am and doing diddly squat with my day. Just because the obstacle is removed doesn't automatically mean the person had the discipline or even interest in what laid beyond it.

[@attinger117]

The bottom line with this discussion is that life isn’t fair. There are many variables that go into a persons success. When you try to implement a system that attempts to balance an unfairness for one variable, that automatically makes it unfair for someone else due to another variable. Yeah it sucks that life isn’t fair but skin color should never be taken into account when it comes to education because that is straight up racist. Programs that aid kids in poor areas are great, because that is strictly providing equal OPPORTUNITY for more people.

[@chesteredgewater3951]

so basically, as a white man, I should pay the price for another minority who is deemed disadvantaged for reasons I have nothing to do with.

[@HabitsV2]

The guy is arguing for help up the ladder for socio-economic factors but can't disconnect it from color.

[@es83stevenson88]

And this is why i will never trust a dei hire

[@Sck519]

How do you know someone is a DEI hire?

[@es83stevenson88]

@@Sck519 they will hide behind identity politics to disguise poor work

[@frederickgivens1569]

@@Sck519Non white mean automatic dei hire

[@KemetledAfrica]

​@frederickgivens1569 Proving yourself a ignorant racist

[@sufeeb]

Where do you stop with "what someone had to go through" as an outside factor?....you can't define it.

[@sarahdebardeleben1536]

Thus the race to the bottom

[@elmarty4803]

Its crazy, I am with PBD on the idea of DEI and how to define the best for the postion, and I am also with RF on the idea that some of the standard ways of defining a candidate are not exactly the best predictor. It is the balance in between......the problem as RF says.....the system is not exactly optimized for truth and reality......that is where both sides are aggravated.

[@vanessac1721]

I hate that he likes the fact that 50% of first year students in Chicago University fail out. Thats horrendous. Who is going to pay back the study loans to the students who failed? Do you know how demotivating it can be to tell someone who isnt ready that they can do something, they try and fail? They wont want to try again because they were lied to. Its inhuman.

[@Matis_747]

What are the obstacles they had to overcome? That’s not quantifiable, who’s gonna be in charge of judging that

[@stephenlight647]

I think Roland is right on this stuff.

[@Suh-spence]

I like his thinking. It’s out of the ordinary

[@L9r5c]

I get what he is saying because I can relate. When you grow up with parents who don’t have diplomas, don’t have money and don’t even understand how to get you into college. However, despite all that they have managed to get a 3.5 GPA. I will take that guy over the 4.0 who grew up in suburbia, went to private school and had private tutors his whole life.

[@desmundlighten3603]

Is this so hard to comprehend!?!

[@julianfrost4827]

All day long, every day, every year.

[@RobertHunterAero]

My parents didn’t have diplomas and still made the sacrifices to pay for private school. Many white kids are dirt poor and assumed to be privileged by DEI standards

[@rockyself]

That's cherry picking.

[@boomguitarjared]

It's something to be considered atleast, I think that's reasonable. However, being able to identify that someone has triumphed over adversity doesn't necessarily make them the best candidate for a job, or necessarily better than someone who hasn't gone through as much perceived adversity. Again, a probably good thing to look at on a case by case basis, but not to just generalize that everyone who came from 'less' is automatically better than those who came from 'more', as it depends on what values and experiences are being looked for.

[@dbeasleyphx]

"We need to focus on all the other stuff." AMEN!

[@_datapoint]

2:13 “Should skin color matter…” The answer is no. Full stop. End of discussion. It is possible for white and Asian people to be poor.

[@angelag5222]

Great interview!

[@edwardnelson3413]

They need to remove race, gender from the admissions process. DEI needs to be tossed in the trash.

[@scottsherman8217]

Just wondering out loud, has he ever collaborated with Sowell? Both guys are very practical.

[@JSStuart100]

This rewards a culture that makes poor life decisions and penalizes those groups who obeyed the rules in life.

[@jallen1227]

Merit, merit and more merit .... Love Roland.

[@defcrew7435]

Good conversation. Fryer himself is certainly an uber menchen of sorts. It will always be true that there is a Little Train That Could but I think the issue is that test scores are the only dispassionate way to measure people. As a terrible test taker personally I might not be happy about this but grading intangibles is pretty risky business. Easy to say, "We have to find a way way." Some people are great interviewees but when it comes to achievement their gift for self promotion may not be helpful. It is fun to see too confident intellects have a discussion without loathing each other and pushing back hard w their POV without malice and being able to laugh and have some funny and in so doing recognize one another's humanity. Lots of respect for these fellows here.

[@orangemanbad]

This guy makes a lot of sense.

[@andrewsmith8727]

If merit was equal between all applicants in one specific placement, I’m all for diversity. But lowering standards for one race over another to allow them a chance they didn’t earn while pushing aside the person who did earn that opportunity.

[@kenyafromcali]

The natural outcome will be to lower standards. Eventually you will run out of “Diamonds in the rough.” It’s a terrible system. The goal should be higher standards in kindergarten and primarily education to bring out the high performance in socially disadvantaged students.

[@mattpetersen4620]

Love this guy.

[@johnnygeorgopoulos4072]

Pat literally laid himself up for the perfect point to counter his affirmative action rebuttal, he was laying it up perfectly, but when the guest (sorry forgot his name, memory issues) said no, Pat, instead went off into an unrelatable sports analogy like usual lol .... all he needed to say was "what makes you think a black kid from the city somehow had a harder time getting there than a white or any other race kid from the suburbs? The kid from the city could've had a great life, 2 parents, great upbringing, tutoring, all the access to knowledge and technology, while the other kid in the suburb could've been in an abusive household with one parent struggling to keep that house, getting beat, no Internet, no tutoring, no access....race means absolutely nothing sir, you're judging a book by it's cover, are you trying to say just because he was black he was less fortunate and less off just because of his skin color good Harvard going sir?" Boom.... point made.... nothing about vertical leaps or 40yrd dashes necessary 😅

[@efun8334]

The professor already addressed that by saying Obama’s or his kid shouldn’t get DEI. Basically meaning you shouldn’t automatically conclude a black candidate went through more adversity than their white counterpart

[@Darkman3299]

@@efun8334 Exactly... I think most people in the comments are just reactionary ideologues, including the VE panel. These issues are fairly nuanced and Fryer's correct- this is the unfortunate system we're already in, why not tweak it towards socio-economics, opening the talent pool and eventually (with time) pursue merit that way rather than radically tearing it down? Idk why these cunts reflexively denounce Fryer as some race-bating commie, he agrees with everyone more than they think.

[@jakelee7639]

Test scores are equality….every kid has a story,..abuse, neglect, divorce, race, depression, poverty, walk ten miles to school, blah blah,…factoring and judging a kid’s environment or struggle is every kind of wrong….would a rich, smart, white kid that was constantly sexually abused, has inferiority complex, depressed, drug abuser get admitted before a mediocre inner city black kid, single mom parent, poor etc…these CANNOT and SHOULD NOT be tried to evaluated….”modern” intellects always think they know better, usually not, it was equal 60-80 yrs ago….test scores only!

[@Hawking1969]

to think that Harvard fired this guy is unthinkable.

[@stimsingh9361]

excellent interview... informative.

[@emmanuelameyaw9735]

DEI should only apply in some cases when people have a natural disability and can't compete in the regular race. Skin color or gender is not a disability.

[@zacht678]

Sooooo we are supposed to discriminate based on race and social backgrounds. Sounds like we have been through this before?

[@StimParavane]

All else being equal = let's discriminate against high-performing Asians for the more interesting black kids.

[@michaelmosley384]

Dude is amazing.

[@martyfenton6184]

I appreciate your contributions to Freakonomics, Professor. I'm an economic freak.

[@zackofpluto2884]

Very eloquent man ..very well-stated.

[@anthonybates8568]

Mann Talk HEAVY💪🏿Roland

[@isabelrivera5013]

Yes he talked about low standards without saying it verbatim.

[@kenyafromcali]

He did actually! Lower SAT scores that COULD have been higher if he had dinner everyday at 7 PM. 🙄

[@SleepyNeo]

No DEI, no Affirmative Action

[@tobyclark6534]

The professor is a smart man.

[@Nonbeliever924]

Skin color should not matter at all. Get the best candidate

[@ericwallentine6119]

This guy reminds me of Thomas Sowell. Both honest, brilliant men.

[@JoelMaenza]

The mental gymnastics these intelligent people go through to try to justify this is truly mind boggling. Why is it SO hard for people to say race should have nothing to do with hiring, and our culture should embrace merit over all else?

[@armonjohnson]

It’s a nuanced argument that clearly is beyond your understanding

[@Tential1]

Because, they can't let go of their tribal beliefs. Dei hurts everyone. It hurt me as a minority. Because I knew colleges needed diversity, I didn't even try. I didn't complete applications, I just took my sat score, plopped it down, and said, "I know the data, my score is top 1% of my minority, so I'm accepted".

[@robbycook4298]

3:39- No, but close..he should have said social economic status plays a role..not skin color…then I would agree.

[@jimmyalamo839]

figure out what it means to be the best person? what if i told you we already know what it means, Merit and having more skill, experience, or work ethic than the others trying to get the same position. why is harvard trying to rethink what best means.

[@madelineharkins5643]

Touche!

[@Santanna536]

😂 it sounds like you're saying schools should evaluate more than just test scores which is what he was saying. Did you even watch the video?

[@KM-tx7mn]

Lol that's what he's saying. Not just test scores but challenged they had to come through; work ethic isn't something grades would show if the kids had to work and take care of his siblings and go to school

[@jimmyalamo839]

where did i mention school anywhere? this guy is trash. Meritocracy is better than the crap he was trying to add.@@Santanna536

[@Caleb-qr6lo]

DEI is just racism under a new flag.

[@timmytv7554]

Conversations about college admissions feel like homework.

[@liveox9]

Huge fan of PBD, but was outclassed on the DEI argument. He did not hear what Randy had to say. I DO NOT believe in DEI, but the self-proclaimed lover of debate didn’t listen, hear, or learn from anything Randy had to say on why it makes sense.

[@schwaaard]

To be fair, Roland detailed a system that was nothing like DEI, but then said DEI could work in an ideal situation. His version didn't put race or sex as the primary focus, which means it's not DEI, but he still used the term. I think he supports the principle of DEI--giving opportunity to talent that otherwise could be missed--but not the criteria. Which means it's not DEI at all. If he'd made the distinction, it could have been processed differently. That said, a more open-minded line of questioning could have revealed that as well.

[@DustMan2704]

"All DEI hires are equal, but some DEI hires are more equal than others."

[@leighmiller4407]

Didn't Earn It

[@tokesalotta1521]

He supposes that the minority in that hypothetical had worked harder, but then supposed that LeBron worked harder. Seems as if he was purposely avoiding the point. It's not necessarily about who worked harder but who is the better person for the position. However, once the student or employee is there, it's about optimizing their potential. With that said, that's self-serving for the employer or school. What does the person want? People focus on goals such as degrees and income. What about happiness? What about fulfillment?

[@nicholasleblanc7467]

If you want those things go to a trade school.

[@julianfrost4827]

There is no supposed here. If the kid is poor, lives in a ghetto with very poor parents they definitely worked much harder than some kid from the burbs with a normal family life.

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

What should happen to the latter child that did everything right but was born too fortunate for your liking, ​@@julianfrost4827?

[@TigerHogan]

Holy shit. Race should never be a factor.

[@markparham]

in america race is always a factor

[@rpn1717]

“I’ll give you a break by letting you watch” 🤣

[@scottmurphy283]

I’ve never seen someone so afraid to say the truth. He’s trying to dodge it as best he can

[@jeffreyrichard2575]

genetic ability does exist Do you think that its a coincidence that 80-90% of all NBA players are black? Intelligence and scholastic ability is partially genetic as well

[@marlonmoncrieffe0728]

Not a coincidence but not genetics either, ​@@jeffreyrichard2575. Basketball is inexpensive to play and sports is a gateway out of poverty.

[@nateantosz390]

if environment was the factor he wants to look at for affirmative action- then race should never even be brough up.. a white kid in the slums is going to have just as hard a time, so if he excels he is clearly talented and should be in that exact same basket as all black people are nowadays benefiting from racist policy