Rules Lawyer Outsmarts Himself & Then Has A Fit | Narrated D&D Story

[@Yojimbo16]

Rules Lawyer: "I would rather stay dead!" DM: "Okay you're dead for good." Rules Lawyer: (Surprised Pikachu face)

[@JacobL228]

Not only are you allowed to use your bonus action before your action, but there are a lot of spells, like Shillelagh, and abilities like, barbarian's Rage, that are specifically designed for that. If you're going to be a rules lawyer, at least know the rules.

[@chillandgrilltillenddays69]

Yes very true, but there are bonus action abilities that you must use your action first, like 2 weapon fighting, martial arts, and polearm master but there's only a few of them and I don't think there is a single spell that way.

[@hemiwarrior6226]

Rules lawyer: "No, I'd never be a human." DM: "So you have chosen... death."

[@DarksideGmss0513]

I remember there's a scene for Pirates of The Caribbean that comes to mind when Emma recites the pirate code to one of the captains and he replies with "The Code is more like a guideline than an actual code" I feel like that's now the rules should be approached.

[@darklord884]

You mean when *Elizabeth* recites the code to *Captain Barbossa* ?

[@DarksideGmss0513]

@@darklord884 Yeah that's what it was I forgot the names it's been awhile since I've seen them

[@WhyYouMadBoi]

Well not how rules work. Its like coding or math you fuck one thing up and the whole thing becomes a mess. IE bad or unnecessary homebrew.

[@darklord884]

@@WhyYouMadBoi That wasn't the point here though. Math is math, but this is storytelling. The GM or players might bend some rules to fit the story, the characters, rule of cool, etc. without causing problems to the actual system of the game. Being a hopeless stick in the mud about it and complaining when it's just a bit outside the rules is causing bigger problems in this case than that minor inaccuracy of lore.

[@WhyYouMadBoi]

@@darklord884 Remember this is a game, games have rules. You're no longer talking about the actual game espect you're talking about the roleplay which is completely different.

[@platypusbuk]

I have 2 Rules Lawyers in the current campaign im running. However, both of them are amazing and very tactful in pointing things out, giving suggestions on ways to address things coming up, and are helpful in explaining things to players who may have hit a wall with how something should/could/does work. They also respect final decisions when it comes to something i have to put my foot down on. im super fortunate to have these guys in our group.

[@fenorlex1126]

Those two are a credit to their types. Good.

[@MindOfGenius]

Especially when they mention tiny details that everyone else missed. That demon that a PC summoned since its a new spell for them? Yeah, it lasts for an hour with concentration, but they just dismissed it... *and forgot to read the part where it says "creates a 15ft explosion of fire when it leaves"...and on the 3rd floor of a wooden building.*

[@funnyblog100]

My favorite case of rules lawyering was the time I pulled loophole abuse on the dm. Essentially he gave me a cursed ring with a devil bound to it for backstory reasons and it was trying to corrupt my character so I had to make wisdom saves to avoid its influence and the ring couldn’t be removed. Realizing the devil could possibly influence me since I had the ring I handed a party member my dagger and told them to cut off the finger. Specifically our divination wizard because she had portent and the lucky feat so she wouldn’t fail the Medicine check required to surgically remove the finger. The dm was shocked by this. Devils can regenerate so I later checked my bag and realized the finger was now a devil hand took it to a temple and had it incinerated.

[@raeishimura]

So, trying to figure out the train of logic rules lawyer followed to what he expected to happen. Rules layer: A human? Noooo! I'd rather stay dead! DM: you sure about that? Rules lawyer: Yes! DM: OK. Your character is now perma-dead. Rules lawyer: What!? You can't do that! Like, what did he even think would happen?

[@ShepardCommander]

Whole story sounds fake. I dunno where people find these guys. Most people I play D&D with: 1) We alternate being DM so everyone knows the rules, making it so that no one is a rules lawyer; 2) Are close friends of mine, so any issues we have with the game, we talk it through and always ends well.

[@leobrad2199]

Not sure I understand, why was the Rules Lawyer forced to come back as a human? If he doesn't want his character to be human, why is that a problem? I apologize if I missed something, just genuinely trying to understand.

[@sugartoothYT]

@@leobrad2199 the spell Reincarnate forms a new body of a random race for the resurrected.

[@leobrad2199]

@sugartoothYT yea but a DM can overlook that. Could have just brought him back and made him reroll his stats instead of forcing that issue.

[@sugartoothYT]

@@leobrad2199 that seems like a point where the player is just unreasonably uncompliant and should suck it up and make a new character or leave the game; there is clearly a much deeper problem at play at that point. Reincarnate does what it does, the spell is made to have the (overall very small) drawbacks it does. You are suggesting the DM is doing something wrong by abiding by preset rules and not changing on a whim of a single player. And note: according to the OP the player/character threw a hissy fit AFTER finding out what race they would be, didn't oppose the spell from the start. "Do you wanna gamble?" "Yes please! ...Wait I got something I didn't want!? Unfair, change it!"

[@valentinejavet5361]

Read in Warhammer Fantasy RPG 2e Core Book: "Should anyone start querying the rules, citing martial arts training, historical precedent, or even, Gods forbid, logic, the GM is fully within their rights to throw dice, food or even this book at the offender." Made me laugh ^^

[@byronsmothers8064]

There's two types of rules lawyers: Those that understand the focus of the rules & simply quash the rule of cool, and those that exploit the rules when they benefit from it while ignoring the detrimental ones.

[@masonwheeler6536]

The term "rules lawyer" has gotten a fair bit less pejorative in the D&D community over the past few weeks now that we've seen such a dramatic illustration of them using their powers for good!

[@bakariwolf3835]

My two favorite stories for rules lawyering getting it thrown back to him was the same guy twice. He was the typical rules lawyer, books opened all over the table, playing his character wonky but always having a rule to site for why it was ok. After trying to call him on things eight times the whole table just kind of gave in and defaulted to him knowing the rules better. First time he was put in his place we had gotten a new player in that only watched one game and went home we expected to never see him again. But the next week he came back not only with his own books but a character made. The build he did was probably the most OP thing we had ever seen and we had to look up a lot to make sure it was by the book. It was and impressive as heck. Roleplay was impressive as well. Well Mr. Rules lawyer just ignored him and tried to outshine him with spells and what not that we all had been told the rules of but no one wanted to look up. The new guy. "Excuse me is this a house rule?" Us "No it's just a broken spell. He uses it all the time." New guy "That's not how that works though." He tells us how it works and we all suddenly decide to look it up. Rules lawyer breaks in to say it's how the spell works and new guy just calmly gives page number, spell name, paragraph word for word. Turns out new guy had a near photographic memory. Through out the night Mr Rules lawyer tried to use broken stuff none of us liked and new guy kept pointing out he was cheating. He hated this and we loved it. Second time was a bit after this. We were in a game where we were in a demonic court being tried for ruining demons plans. All of us were pretty much forced to plead guilty on one count or another with my character only having done one thing to ruin their plans. Mr. Rules lawyer however who was lawful good but played chaotic evil talked his way out of all the charges. In the end the rest of us were sent to a realm of torment where the adventure took place and we could battle our way out. Nothing much changed for us we had our equipment, stats, and everything. However because he had talked his way out of the charges he was found innocent and thus "blessed" by being turned into a low level demon sent to the same place as us to grow. His gear, stats, and class were all gone and his character nerfed big time.

[@nathanreid2457]

I am the rules lawyer for my group and even then I’ll usually check myself before saying something. There’s always one rule that the toxic lawyers always seem to forget. “Ultimately, the Dungeon Master is the authority on the campaign and its setting, even if the setting is a published world.” PHB

[@getefix3]

"he got the hand of vecna from a trader" excuse me?!

[@andrewmcgowan9376]

I had a player like this. He was also a close friend. It ended with our friendship as he turned rulings into all out wars that ruined game and chased off other players. He almost ruined the hobby for me. But once he was gone I'm happy to say I fell in love with the game again and have had a wonderful group I play every Wednesday with for over a year now.

[@FreedomAndPeaceOnly]

Most of these horrorstories are really just DM's being inexperienced, being biased in favour of an annoying player or mistaking the game for their private novel. 🍵😌👌

[@Dw7freak]

For the second guy, unless a bonus action ability states that it has to be done after the action, you can use it at any time. There are plenty of people who use the spell Misty Step to break grapples that would normally require an action to break out of just so they don't waste their action.

[@LocalMaple]

I use the rules as a baseline expectation, and since I play via computer at the table I have easiest access to the books and rules. I don’t challenge other players or the DM with their actions and determined results/rolls, but when asked can pull up the rules around it. And yes, I rules lawyer against myself too. Especially if I ask for a concession; I try to add a flaw or failure consequence to it.

[@SR-di7ox]

My forever DM has a rule, and it's basically the only rule that matters. If the PCs can do it then so can the NPCs

[@jacksonhoiland2664]

You just summed up why not to do half the stuff I come up with in my head, because even if it works and is completely unbeatable I could totally die to a bag of holding bomb. This rule in my opinion as a min-maxer is important to bring up during debates because most of the truly broken combos nobody actually wants to fight against and if they do you can always have a npc use similar technicalities to fight back. This encourages min-maxers to build stuff that is strong but not able to one-shot literally anything, which is better for the game.

[@johndevilbiss2518]

Back when I played I was a bit of a rules lawyer. However, it was more that I knew the rules so when something came up I would tell the GM "this is how the rules do this." If GM decided to change the rules I had no problem with it, as long as it is consistent. I hate when rules work one way one time and then a different way the next, and I will call out the GM on it.

[@darklord884]

Wait wait waaaaaait a minute. Since when does an 'amazing GM' give you the f@cking Eye of Vecna from a trader?!

[@frankficcle7081]

If making nine clones was his only power, it wouldn't be so bad, but it sounds like he had a bunch of other powers on top of that.

[@Knightowl5044]

I explain the RAW if a DM does not know how something works however I also always add to the end, however it is your game and you can run it how you want if you do not like these rules.

[@wolfpreist]

Man i love my DM/GM if it makes sense, makes him laugh, has the possibility to be awesome if it works or hilarious if it fails, he lets it side. Case in point a tactic we call "Operation Pinata" TLDR: we use Mage Hand+immovable Rod+Noose+Paladin's strength to string up enemies and take them out of combat. First time we tired it, my sorcerer (with Mage Hand) failed the stealth roll to hide the noose going up and over the rod. our Monk failed his pursasion roll when the wererat asked why there was a floating rope "Uh... Ghosts?" and it didnt work. Next time however it went off without a hitch, passed the rope to the paladin for them to pull the bad guy up into the air, NAT. FCKING. 20. DM decided that meant they went up so fast/hard they hit their head and got knocked out, then strangled to death during combat. And the funniest part to me, was when the DM realized they had missread that part of the area, and it wasnt wererats we fought, but hostages of the wererats, so he retconned the number of hostages/wererats so that we had not just murdered NPC villagers.

[@jorgemigueltavares6041]

Missed an opportunity to have *_Death by Glamour_* playing in the background of the video animation.

[@DarkState2]

I'm very new to DnD (only been watching content about it for about a year) and the only experience I had prior was trying it with some randoms at a local game shop and dying in 15 minutes to a skeleton and quitting immediately a few years back. My buddy asked me if I wanted to play Pathfinder 3.5 with him and his buds to try it again. I said sure and then he and the DM helped me make a character since I didn't know exactly what is aloud or possible for a character. They gave me a website to look at and I decided on a Polychromatic Anadi (race), Alchemist (class) that excels in illusion magic. They said it's supposed to be like an NPC race or something similar but we worked around some of the skills and usages. I assumed some of the skills were too strong and kept coming up with nerfs. I messaged the DM a paragraph of everything I think would help balance my character around the campaign. He disagreed. He decided some of the skills were fine or actually needed buffing and even added a couple spider like race traits on top of it that I'm not sure existed prior. We've played this campaign for a few days but haven't in awhile do to work and time management between the players but it's been a lot of fun and I look forward to playing more.

[@marooniballooni03759]

wow, rules lawyers can be incredibly annoying.

[@dragonicstarblade2049]

not to mention that he did this to himself on the last two things XD

[@johnnysizemore5797]

I'll slightly disagree with you there. Not all "Rules Lawyers" are annoying and bad, some of them in fact started out with a horrible GM that threw them into "Sink or Swim" situations or arbitrarly changed stuff to feel powerful. Now this dude(or dudette) was a jerk and got what they deserved, but not all of them are this way on purpose....

[@dragonicstarblade2049]

@@johnnysizemore5797 that is also true. some rules lawyers can be very helpful to others in case they can't remember stuff.

[@ADT1995]

There's a good type of rules lawyer (one that knows the rules very well but doesn't try to override the DM, and chimes in if there's a question, and who also applies the rules against himself).... This guy is not him, don't be this guy.

[@Unbreakable87]

This isn't a rules lawyer this is a baby man wanting everything.

[@friedaiceborn1663]

You can use a bonus action before an action??? There is even bonus actions with prerequisites (Such as the shield masters bonus action shove which requires you to take the attack action) that you can take before the action, so long as you do the required action later that turn.

[@GreaterGrievobeast55]

YIRBEL LIVES, aaaaughlll this was exhausting story, but that could because it's late

[@L4g__]

I'm a dm with a pretty good memory and I'm playing in a game so I help out with rules if needed but I respect the most important rule of dm gets final say

[@lordscheemo1892]

If you find yourself not agreeing with the rules set by the DM you are more than allowed to voice concern or make suggestions but the second you start getting butt hurt or sour about it is when it becomes a problem. Most of the time rules lawyers are just confused and need clarity on how something is being conducted but 90% a real rules lawyer really just wants things done their way.

[@pavelZhd]

I didn't hame much trouble with rules lawyers. Mostly because I am somewhat a rules lawyer myself, though I firmly believe that the main rule that should take priority in any game is the rule on cool.

[@silverbane266]

I wouldn't say it is showing mercy if they are a paladin of conquest. Just showing their superiority buy not killing them and letting them live with the fact that he lost to a mortal.

[@ADT1995]

There's a good type of rules lawyer (one that knows the rules very well but doesn't try to override the DM, and chimes in if there's a question, and who also applies the rules against himself).... This guy is not him, don't be this guy.

[@franknunally8098]

I make it Crystal Clear to all players at the start of any game that As the GM/DM, I have absolute authority on rules in "My World" and My Game. If any player has a problem with that they are free to leave. I make it Known that this is a game to be enjoyed by everyone and if any single player makes the game unenjoyable, that that player has two choices, adjust their attitude or leave. I have actually seen fights from idiot players and rules-lawyer-players and have ended the game. Now days, I refuse to play with those that are still stuck with a "high school" mentality: I expect my players to remain civil and enjoy the game, as it is meant to be enjoyed.

[@QuetzalcoatlOdin]

Or they're all trapped on the chaos plane and don't know it

[@renata3559]

I already sometimes cut off one of my adhd players in writing a story on page because i cant get through 2 pages of backstory without my head breaking (dyslexia). I always tell my players to explain the basics but have the backstory on hand when i need it for a quest or something. I would have just said to this guy 'dude i am not reading this, make it more compact ' probably the guy would have thrown a fit then and there and left.

[@kgmotte2363]

The second story here isn't even about a Rules Lawyer... The Kid clearly doesn't even KNOW the Rules, He is not eligible for the title, be it for it's Pejorative or Positive applications, it's the ONE Requirement! (When he complained about someone using a bonus action Before an action, that's when you KNOW he's making crap up... Not to mention the fact that he was apparently Stacking Smites multiple times on a single Attack from different Characters(Clones)?!)... He's just a Munchkin trying really hard (And failing) to use the tools of a Rules Lawyer to his advantage AND to reduce the other players in the process. He's basically a Cuckoo trying to pass himself off as a Sparrow, or a Wolf in sheep's clothing? I dunno pick your Analogy for a Negative thing trying to pretend to be a benign or positive one?... The First Story is about a Rules Lawyer using his powers for Evil though... Somewhat... At least he had the decency to Keep most of his Comments for AFTER the session, But there IS a Limit to pestering the DM between Sessions... Also, He's Clearly Cherry picking which Rules to follow and which to willfully ignore, that's not OK... Every Resurrection Spell ever Explicitly states that they only work if the soul is Willing, he Refused because "Eww Human", he's Staying DEAD, that's how that works... Also if he wants to be a Ghost, he should Look up the actual Stats of a Ghost, their possession is FULLY resistible, and allows the victim to keep trying to resist it while being Possessed. Also, even if he's Currently inside someone's body, he is still vulnerable to Holy Effects, which means that if anyone Heals his Host, his astral form takes Damage, because he IS undead... and AS an Undead he can't heal himself other than by Draining life from others or Negative Energy Spells like "Inflict wounds" (Negative energy version of Cure Wounds). And since his Body got Disintegrated when he refused to be Reincarnated, He doesn't have access to the Ghost's normal Respawn Mechanics, if he drops to 0 HP in his astral form, his soul is Gone forever... It should be noted too, that Despite these Stories, and particularly the "Takeaway" from the first Story, It's important to remember that Tabletop games are Co-operative, These Horror Stories should NOT Be used as an Excuse by DMs, or players, to become or encourage Tyrannical DMs as many people that like to Scream out "Rule Zero!" often do... FYI, Rule Zero isn't even What most people think it is... It's NOT "The DM is always Right, and Can change the rules at any point for any reason!", Rule Zero is "The point of the game is to have fun, if a rule working a certain way isn't fun for your GROUP, Change it." That is to say, if you're gonna be changing rules, it's not up to the DM alone, such Decisions MUST be made as a Group and by Consensus, And the DM is JUST an other player(With more responsibilities), Their Vote isn't worth more than anyone else's, Unless there's a tie in the votes in which case the DM becomes the Tiebreaker. I'd also add that if someone at the table is just going "Whatever the DM says" they're not participating in that conversation, they're just being a "Yes-Man", And until they decide to actually participate in the discussion they should not be counted as a separate vote from the DM's. If your Table has Mostly just "yes-men" at it, then you might want to change Tables if you're not one of them, because that's just a Tyrannical DM with extra steps, Let them enjoy themselves on their own, they probably won't like you being in their group if you EVER Disagree with their DM anyway. A note to people who Know themselves to be Rules Lawyers: WARN any Group you're about to play with, Make sure they know what they're getting into AHEAD of time, before you get invested. Them Learning it the hard Way will make things More difficult for everyone involved, avoid that. If they Decide that they don't want a Rules Lawyer at their table at all, then that means that they already have their Minds set on Rules Lawyers being an exclusively Pejorative/Negative thing, Let them have their fun, You just dodged a Bullet, Be Happy, Find Greener Pastures that will let you be YOU at the table, they Exist. --- Sincerely, your (Perhaps not so Local) Friendly Neighborhood Rules Lawyer!

[@yungo1rst]

I am still a bit of a rules lawyer, much more toned down than before where i caused a player to never come back to dnd during 3.5 edition day. i still get irked when someone is handed +4 holy weapon before level 12, but me having a metal quality on a animal companion is overpowered.

[@-.CosmicCode.-]

I had a bad story today I’ll keep it short Pretty much I run a campaign at school. While I am kinda new I know how to DM, The way I was running the campaign was where when they beat the main BBEG, they can continue on through the campaign. Today, one of the players wanted to betray the party so that they could make a new character. I asked them not to but they still did. After that, everything got bad. He attacks the wizard doing 13 damage, and everything got bad. A different character used an attack to hit everybody, making people get mad at them too. I just left, and I don’t know what to do, I had so much planned but I feel that it’s all ruined now.

[@Chen13376]

Bruh, if someone behaves like this rule lawyer guy i would literally just go: "Then go GM your own fucking game if you dont like my interpretation of the rules"

[@genseven4616]

I don't understand why so many people can't understand that the dm has the final say. Says so right in the rules lol

[@chillandgrilltillenddays69]

I feel bad he had to put up with this guy

[@Nineball2501]

GM should be like Gabi. Gabi doesn't read messages more than three lines long.

[@romanwolf0072]

Not all rules lawyers are toxic people like these examples. They'd be toxic terrible players even if not rules lawyers.

[@demonwolf8024]

I was just about to comment something similar. People, please remember that there are jerks in every group. Rules lawyers can be incredibly helpful by usually having at least most of the rules committed to memory. I myself am a rules lawyer and I use this to help my parties so we don't have to spend valuable in game time looking things up and on more than one occasion I have saved party members from unfortunate consequences. If the DM wants to homerule something then I accept their decision because it's their game to run. For me, we are all here to tell a story together and the rules are there to help us have fun instead of being an obstacle to the fun. I just feel like Rules Lawyer has become a four letter word in the community and it doesn't have to be that way. Just, please remember to take everyone on an individual basis and judge based on intention and action.

[@pLanetstarBerry]

The way I always see it, each playing style has both their good and bad sides. I've seen positive examples of rules lawyers- I've seen them help new players learn their spell and class features, help DMs by suggesting rulesets for some things the DM couldn't have possibly prepared for, and otherwise enhance the gaming experience for everyone at the table by using the rules like a tool, not a weapon. Those rules lawyers are great!

[@demonwolf8024]

@@pLanetstarBerry That is very true.

[@billnotice9957]

Thanks, buddy. I have player doing this right now to me. Goodbye.

[@Rutanachan]

In the second story, it's easy to blame the DM and say that she should stand up to the Rules Lawyer, but she is the little SISTER to the Rules Lawyer. Imagine how this player is in RL, Little Sister has probably no chance of standing up against RL here. So I really can't blame her.

[@evilbeardedman]

The quality of stories keeps declining.

[@candidavaide4167]

Rule lawyer's are the worst. By the way, love the animation, so clean!!!!!

[@DeltaPhoenixHawk]

So I've been playing D&D for almost 29 years and have been a DM for around 26 years now. I have run into rules lawyers often. Which as a DM for almost every edition of D&D, except 4th, I have stated one of a few things. It's called the Dungeon Masters GUIDEBOOK... keyword GUIDE. As the DM, I am the one that says how things are run. I also let them know that I'd be happy to demote myself to the role of a player, which has happened before. In the times that the Rules Lawyer did take up the DM spot, I would turn the tables upon them so long as the OTHER players are okay with me doing this. I would only do it for one or two sessions which were always enough to get the message across as I often would ask them how it felt to have a single player question everything they said while the others didn't. It's a dirty trick, but every time I've had to do such the person started to realize what they had been doing to me. TLDR, I've played for years, and rarely had to turn the table on them by being just as much of a rules lawyer to them till they realized what I was doing, and then peace was had by all. Well, that and 4,000 bonus exp. SWEET!

[@bartimaeus1887]

Guys, rules lawyer does not mean someone who sticks to the rules as written. Since when do lawyers care about the letter of the law? They care about winning their case. If you insist on interpreting the rules in a way that's beneficial to you and argue about it? You're a rules lawyer. There are no good rules lawyers. It is a pejorative. If you are a stickler for the rules even to your own character's detriment then well you're a stickler for the rules, can be good or bad depending on circumstance.

[@denverarnold6210]

Rules Lawyers can be fine as long as they remember the number 1 and 2 rules: 1. Everyone is there to have fun, so try not to spoil it 2. The GM has full control, including over rules. If they are reasonable, you can still have discussion over them, for fairness or coolness, but having fun is more important than being right.

[@McJeebus]

I AM a rules lawyer. Though, I only try to rules lawyer to prevent unfair calls and to make sure the game is being played as desired. Not to get my way.

[@TheGrrowler]

Please stop with the "active speaking" It's actually very distracting. I'm aware colleges will say it's a must but in my experience people tend to feel like they are being talked to like a child or pet.

[@batisinsane]

Seventeenth!

[@dr.robotnik3684]

I literally hope players like this live a low, isolated life.