Rumination Analysis on Star Trek 12 Sorta: 2009

[@starwolf99]

I love how the alternative timeline actually improved Spock's relationship with Sarek, reaffirming that being a Vulcan is about emotional CONTROL, not emotional ABSENCE. And they have the kind of conversation that should have happened in the original timeline: Spock: I am as conflicted as I once was as a child. Sarek: You will always be a child of two worlds. I am grateful for this, and for you. Spock: I feel anger for the one who took Mother's life - an anger I *cannot* control. Sarek: I believe... that she would say, "Do not try to." You asked me once why I married your mother. I married her because I loved her.

[@OhManTFE]

7:30 The Visitor (Deep Space Nine) is another example. I JUST watched this tearful episode last night. WHY did I not watch DS9 when I was a kid? It feels like the best series so far!

[@brandonarlo]

Once again you have a fantastic approach and wonderful way of discussing and dissecting work. Keep up the great content.

[@IamDootsdoot]

as a long time star trek fan, I found this movie to be fun, not too ground breaking but fun and a little refreshing. It felt nice to hand off the roles to the new generation(lol references!) and they did wonderfully. They all had great moments which made me actually connect those characters to the show. I absolutely loved the interactions between the characters, much like the interactions between the the straw hat pirates that makes me love them. I know anime but, it's the only other thing I can think of that is close to this kind of character focus with good action.

[@OhManTFE]

29:23 LOL nearly choked on my drink there.

[@johnthemachine]

35:30 we got exactly that with discovery! Bad writers, but I really enjoyed seasons 1 and 2 because I saw what they were going for. Ive rewatched both seasons back to back and its admittedly some of my favorite trek to date

[@Inignot12]

Excellent rumination as always. Looking forward to the rewrite project too!

[@AspieMediaBobby]

As always, your analysis is spot-on,Lore!:)

[@kblargh]

The External Inertial Dampener Spock Mentioned is the same thing Pike refers to as the Parking Brake. That's why Sulu reacted like he'd just been pointed out as an idiot when the Enterprise failed to go to warp. Just saying, i love the novel tie-in for this movie. Other interesting things, Spock actually gives the Vulcan Science Council a variation on the traditional Vulcan Salute, that we on Earth like to refer to as The Finger (something his mother taught him, no doubt). But one thing i like about this movie are the little details. Like, after Spock refuses admission into the Science Academy, just as we walks off, we get a closeup of his face, and his stare shifting toward another figure, severely at that, just as he leaves the frame, and we can instantly tell he's glaring at his father (partially because he'd stared at him twice before, but still, brilliant detail). And the movie is littered with those, ranging from the comical to the meaningful, that just flesh out and bring life to a scene beyond the dialogue; speaking of which, people actually talk over each other like IRL, in a good few scenes - two things i love in a movie. One thing i liked about Kirk, is how despite all his confidence, he's still flesh and blood. This is one thing that brings him out and gives him depth (unlike a certain Mary Susan i could name), he knows when he's in trouble beyond his own capacity. One scene that i loved was when he knew he was grounded pending the hearing. The novel goes rather deep into how despaired he was, but Chris Pine just nails it. He's pretty much inconsolable, but still has it in him to put on a fake smile for Bones, to send him off as best he can (Captain's gotta know when to smile). And i love it that Bones sees through it immediately and chooses to save him. It very effectively grounds and humanizes Kirk, and illustrates just how strong their friendship really is. Beyond that, he's extremely decisive, and wastes no time and spares no effort when something needs to get done. And when there's nothing he can immediately do, he nevertheless never stops paying attention. The scene when the Enterprise comes out of warp at Vulcan is especially poignant, as whenever the camera briefly shifts to him throughout the whole ordeal, right up until Nero's hail, he has the look and demeanor of a predator - laser focused, and never taking his eyes off the action. It contrasts with his initial stunt with the Kobyashi Maru, where he made it look easy; we're made increasingly aware of how much effort he actually puts into it, and that's mostly Pine's non-verbal acting. And i say this because i could have very easily seen them turn Kirk into the genius chosen golden boy, but they managed to avoid it with flying colors, i think, so well done. As a side note, i don't know where i read this, but the Hobus Supernova actually traveled much faster than anyone expected, as it spread through subspace. Romulus was supposed to have had at least in the range of years to deal with it, when that time frame was suddenly reduced to hours.

[@christheghostwriter]

I'm a lifelong Trek fan, born the same week the show debuted on television. And I loved this film. The second one was weaker, but still enjoyable, and the third one brilliantly closed the arc of Kirk's character, showing how he evolved from a brash young smartass into an effective and respected leader.

[@inmjoh]

A big problem is Kirk goes from a misfit cadet, getting kicked off the ship to captain of a star ship... imagine it in real life. The captain of an aircraft carrier is killed, and a cadet a few months out of basic is put in the captains chair? The cadet in question was just left at the last port for insubordination and is then made captain... it strains credibility and logic.

[@richardvernon317]

Correct, that it the biggest flaw in the film though it has happened in real life at least once back in the US war of Independence (A Officer Cadet ended up in command after all of the senior officers were killed).

[@cetialpha-vi]

This movie did not have any character development for really any character... the closest was new-Spock but even that is debatable. New-Kirk stays immature and irresponsible throughout the movie from beginning to end. He literally behaves the same during his childhood scene(s) as he does as an adult - and is rewarded for it. That’s why in “Into Darkness” I was puzzled at his reprimand by new-Pike... he was just behaving as he always had in the past and was given a medal and a starship for it last time...

[@HONEYBADGER222]

I can't wait for you to rip Into Darkness a new one

[@radeadcool]

as cool as the plans for JJ seem they were very different and it was not what your saying or think. Star trek online Devs have talked alot about what happened on there end. JJ wanted to KILL the whole Prime universe. THE WHOLE THING. It was never ment to be Romulus and Spoke was ment to be the only one who lives from the whole universe. He wanted to have Picard, Wolf and Sisko and anyone else they could get to be killed on screen at a massive battle at earth. CBS was unhappy to say the least. They argued, "You can not kill our part of Trek (they also wanted to discontinue ALL merch as well), we have games in development that take place after the shows. In the end it was desided to kill Romulus and have a comic connecting the stories." JJ was very agnry about the deal and was pissed as he felt old trek created brand confusion. Funny thing is he didnt even dream of doing that for Star Wars. Why? Because he was a fan of it.

[@wolfsruhm]

Were do you get this ridiculous piece of information?

[@radeadcool]

Its been talked about by all the leaders of the Dev team for Star Trek Online in countless interviews over the years. Principal Lead Designer Al Rivera, Lead Producer Maria Rosseau, Former Lead Writer Christine Thompson and others have all talked about it at some point in interviews over the years with priority one podcast or Tribbles in Ecstasy or other podcast that no longer run.

[@ning7061]

Yeah its crazy.

[@logandarklighter]

So this is one of the very few times when we should be THANKFUL for Executive meddling. Wow. What a damn BULLET Star Trek dodged there! Especially since JJ and crew have proven that even with a world they ARE fans of they can RUIN IT (Last Jedi and SJWism in the franchise in general).

[@neobahumuth6]

funny since it's not a JJ movie TLJ

[@elliotyourarobot]

I like the Vulcan logical bullying scene.

[@eggsandchips91]

I like this film and its sequel (to a lesser extent). I think it is a well made action sci-fi film. However I miss the older style of the Star Trek films and tv shows.

[@foxmolnar6258]

I enjoy this new version. It doesn't erase Shat and Co....it builds upon the characters and rings true to me and I'm grateful for it. I hope they continue the Kelvin movies despite the loss of Chekhov who I think should be recast respectfully.

[@shadow8928]

*reaction towards people that think action lessens a movie* RAMMING SPEED! that is all. loved the interactions between spock, kirk, bones and of course scotty amazing performances all around, they weren't playing those characters, they Were those characters.

[@Edax_Royeaux]

Nero put his faith in Spock and he was let down. So naturally he does what anyone would do in such a situation and go back in time and slaughter Klingons.

[@Braskus]

Love the quote in the top of the description. lol

[@katryonkelly3772]

Awesome Rumination as usual.I couldn't stand Kirk in this film but I thought everything else was okay.It wasn't great but it was a massive improvement over Nemesis.

[@Dan-bq1dz]

So, I totally get people hating the new movies for what they represent, but honestly I genuinely have liked both of them. Yes, even into darkness. I will admit I am not as heavily invested into the trek franchise, so that might be why it doesn't bother me. I don't know, they were very clean flashy well made films. That's just like, my opinion though. Man.

[@donaldshoemaker5147]

I give you 8000th sub, for a job well done.

[@kardy12]

I don’t really see how the Abrams movies continue the tradition of Star Trek’s character driven arcs. Character development plays second fiddle to action sequences and CGI.

[@tripsadelica]

I have to agree with you regarding action in a movie. It shouldn't cheapen, or make better, any piece of cinema. it should be there when the story requires it and it can help a viewer develop a stronger bond with the characters and the story. That aside I think you missed a few things that I personally found that damaged the film's credibility with TOS fans. I'll list them for you: 1. The Enterprise should not have been constructed on the ground. It's illogical from a practical point of view and goes against what we have previously been told about the Big E...that it was constructed in orbit at the Utopia Planitia "shipyards". From a purely logical and scientific point of view, constructing a large spaceship IS more logically carried out in space. I believe Roddenberry even consulted people at NASA about this little detail item when he designed the first show. 2. A motorcycle in the 23rd century with metal keys? This at a time when antigrav is universally being used and when even present day tech allows for keyless ignition? A small quibble but one that grated on me. 3. Along with the antigrav argument...who was the genius who came up with the idea of using 21st century forklift trucks in the shuttle hanger on Earth? It's like seeing someone using a handcrank to start their car...so anachronistic as to be ridiculous. One would assume that antigrav units would do that job in the 23rd century and, in fact, in the TMP the designers went out of their way to show simple tech items like grav units being used to carry boxes around on the Enterprise. 4. The Enterprise engine room looked like a winery...oh wait, it WAS a winery! Again, it looked about as futuristic as my big toe. Shame on such penny-pinching by the production designers! I know that for production convenience and cost that sometimes shortcuts need to be made but they could have made more of an effort with these simple details. Just as an aside one of the reasons I love the original "The Day the Earth Stood Still" was the art direction in the film. The full size saucer prop with the "magic" folding ramp would hold up well today in any Sci-Fi film as would the excellent "gesture control" instruments seen inside the saucer. Top notch art direction which did not rely on present day items to envisage an other-worldy technological superiority. It's like when I tried to watch the new Battlestar Galactica...as soon as I spotted the old Bell telephone handsets on the bridge I thought...yeah...NAH! I lost interest in it because it just wasn't believable for me. My last bone of contention which purely boils down to personal taste is JJ's use of his favourite composer, Michael Giacchino. He's okay as far as tv is concerned but not a patch on Goldsmith or even the various composers who worked on TOS. I couldn't identify a single thematic element, aside from the reasonably-well-done end title track. Hollywood has really lost its way in the music area and really has very few true composers of the ilk of Herrmann, Goldsmith, Williams or Poledouris (and the myriad of composers from the thirties onwards) any more. Hollywood seems to be relying on "tonemasters" these days who can belt out ominous tones on a synthesiser but not much else. Case in point. watch the two versions of "True Grit". For me it is no contest...the Elmer Bernstein score is just iconic. Anyway...sorry for the long rant...I just had to get this stuff off my chest. Keep up the good work!

[@direct_d4574]

Great video as usual!

[@jamespepper8671]

Uhura was flirting with Spock in the changeling in Season 1

[@TheDarkrein]

This movie was not made for the existing fans. It was made for the new generation which had no exposure to the franchise beforehand.

[@reyjusuf]

I wonder how Vulcans handle Pon Farr now in this timeline since traditionally they have to return to their home planet every 7 years

[@cetialpha-vi]

reyjusuf lol let’s be honest, with this new direction the creators decided to take the movies it’s not a series where they’d even address that - would involve too much character development haha

[@FrozenHollowFox]

KOTOR HOOOOOOOOOYPE. Also.. good video. And.. I've never seen arguments in the comments.. not that I read them that often.

[@TheRevanchists]

I'm surprised your doing Into Darkness. I remember you doing that movie once before. Back when you refused to show your face on camera and was in a great deal of pain.

[@cloudsombrero]

ye olde days of darkness when lore was archenia and he was more myth than man

[@GHOSTBUSTERS168]

Sorry if this has already been answered, but when will the KoToR videos come out? After the streams, or will they come out all as one?

[@lajospapp258]

Nice rumination, especiall the behind the scenes stuff about the Nova. Thank you! I like this movie better than the second, But I'm really interested what will they do with the 3rd movie with Simon Pegg as it's co-writer.

[@deathsdoor07]

This movie is also a Kirk story.

[@MaddinW1993]

arch, will you ruminate on the 2013 movie as well?

[@DarthDJJD]

I basically tolerated the flaws of Star Trek (2009) due to the resetting of the new Star Trek timeline. It was a great method to do a reboot without making a reboot, like you have mentioned. They had a great potential to take Star Trek to a whole new environment, but blew it big time in Star Trek Into Darkness. Into Darkness was the Aliens 3, X-Men 3, Spider-Man 3, and Phantom Menace of the Star Trek franchise - the most disappointing film.

[@logandarklighter]

Arch: "This is Spock's film, Kirk is almost tertiary." Soo... Chris Pine is ACTUALLY Kurt Russel/Jack Burton in a sci-fi adaptation of Big Trouble in Little China with Zachary Quinto/Leonard Nimoy as Dennis Dun/Wang Chi? :D ( Kudos to anyone who really GETS the reference above and why I am so amused by Arch's observation triggering the image in my head. ^_^ )

[@EnvisionerWill]

Erica Bana? Eric O'Bana? Whatever. You say that Nero lost his family and couldn't get them back? HE HAS F***ING TIME TRAVEL. He could just go go back to the day before the supernova, scoop his family up, and fly away. He could go talk to Spock right after he talked to Spock, saying "your thing won't work, we need to save my planet some other way". Him going and seeking revenge, when he has the power to jump throughout all of time willy-nilly, is just kind of dumb. It needs to happen because the plot says so.

[@wolfsruhm]

He foes not have time travel, the time travel thing was an accident, because he wanted his revenge on Spock, while the latter was on his way to stop the intergalactic shockwave of doom

[@pocketheart1450]

I hope we don't get Renegades. I just.. don't feel like that is what Trek should be. Trying to make Trek into something it's not is why it kept failing in the first place. My ideal next TV show is a show that takes place in the 2530s and canonizes STO. It's set in a new era of peace and exploration following the Long War (mentioned by name in the Needs of the Many). It could show a quadrant still recovering decades later, civil unrest and the human element of dealing with that, exploring and meeting new species and dealing with incorporating new ones into the Federation. There's SO MUCH that could be done there, it's so ripe for expansion. I want Trek to get back to what it used to be about.. the characters.. and the exploration of space (and thus the contemporary issues without offending or preaching).

[@pocketheart1450]

I was disappointed that Simon Pegg got the part. As a fan of Atlantis I was really, really hoping for Paul McGillion, whom I think would have done a better job.. he was even endorsed by James Doohan's son if I recall correctly.

[@permeus2nd]

38:55 lens flare you forgot lens flare. also thanks for reminding me of been 15 :(

[@matthiaskepplinger3894]

permeus2nd It got a bit out of hand and some toning tone would have been great, but the general idea and the use is a net positive for me.

[@progste]

I think the movie-show-movie structure would have worked much better for star trek than the marvel universe, and I'm saying that as someone who isn't a giant star trek fan.

[@josiahtheobald5084]

I had just left my momma's belly 20 years ago

[@gallendugall8913]

I like the score and the first third of the film. Then it goes downhill. JJ Abrams can manage a good setup but never delivers a follow through.

[@Vietnam_Chr0nicles]

into darkness is my favorite star trek movie of all time. 2nd would be first contact

[@Robin_Glader]

movie / show / movie / show. Infeasable! Actually the X-Files did it. Although they did it show / movie / show / movie / show.

[@zephyr8072]

Star Trek 12: So Very Tired

[@Flaris]

I didn't overly like this movie right out of the gate based solely on the premise. For me it felt like and I thought it was like blowing up Star Trek history so they could start with the original cast. Star Trek does do its own thing with time travel but I went into this movie feeling like they murdered TNG and the shows I really enjoyed. I thought the action was fine and the movie was entertaining. But the basic premise had me going....wha? No matter what people can say after the fact, my enjoyment of it was tainted from the beginning. I also agree with the point that it is silly to say the Vulcans are endangered. I mean...it's one planet. It's unlikely this far in the future that even half the entire population lives on that planet. They did lose their home world and that does have major implications for their standing in the Federation, but it shouldn't have a major impact on the existence of their species.

[@BaileyCallis]

Okay I can see your argument for kirk not being the main character, but he is definitely the protaginist, if you asked any average joe who the main character of this film was 9/10 they would say Kirk.

[@noblevi3623]

WARNING: super massive huge wall of text if you click "READ MORE" I thought the movie was pretty decent. And unlike Into Darkness, this one actually accomplished at telling a story. And unlike Into Darkness, there wasn't massively huge gaping Plot Holes, "Can we contact Star Fleet?" "Coms are down." -minute later- "Open a channel to Vulcan." "Yes Sir." Uhhhh what? Hopefully if they make a third installment in the reboot they'll do another original story, rather than "oh we need to redo something that's already been done." The obvious thing Into Darkness was playing at was the inclusion of Khan. I honestly believe this reboot could be decent if they get their shit together. Hopefully Into Darkness was just setting up plot for any later films, if they even bother making them, a lot like Search For Spock did. They've already referenced the Romulans in the first one, why can't they do more with them now? They have reason to, "Ship was from the future, a mining ship built by Romulans - from the future - successfully handed ass out to 40 birds of prey, the USS Kelvin, and a respectable Star Fleet fleet, and nearly destroyed the Enterprise." I'd like to see something about the Klingon Empire going into a recession because they lost 40 birds of prey, and then the Romulans getting flack for doing something they haven't even done yet. I want to see more fallout of the timeline being re-written than just Admiral Markus being a complete dink to the Klingons. Another thing, I know Original Timeline Spock is dead, Leonard Nimoy is gone, but would have thought that once he heard about well, the USS Vengeance and the now dead Admiral Markus' plan for a war with the Klingons he would've stepped in and said, "No.. no, no, no. You don't understand, from where I come from, the Federation and Klingons are allies and true friends. Don't make me slap a bitch." The next movie needs to be about the extreme political tension that has been caused by Nero with a Romulan made ship, it some how being exposed that the Vulcans were able to successfully engineer artificial black holes to the galactic community- probably not attainable at the current time in the alternative timeline - The Klingons going into a recession and either are lashing out or on the verge of collapse, and maybe this and the Federation being stuck in the middle of this trying to desperately hold the Alpha Quadrant together and prevent it from going into complete anarchy. There needs to be a lot of finger pointing in the next movie. We already know Praxis has exploded - prematurely - in this timeline, which was the plot driving force behind The Undiscovered Country. The Klingons are in serious trouble - they've lost a fleet, Praxis is gone, and they have reason to suspect the Federation of militarizing and mobilizing. The Vulcans are an endangered species, and are the reason they are an endangered species because they built a super weapon that is by far worse than Genesis. The Romulans have been proven to build a *mining* vessel that could wipe out fleets of ships, no faction has any reason to want play along with them. I know it's not possible, with Nimoy dead, but I would've like to have seen a meeting between The Romulans, The Klingons, what's left of The Vulcans, and The Federation, and Original Spock comes in and tells them that if they don't get their shit together and get along, they won't be ready for anything else that's out there: The Borg, maybe the Dominion, I'm not sure how far from the future Original Spock was. Because of Nero the balance of power has been seriously disrupted, like Quark said in Deep Space Nine, (I'm butchering this quiet badly, by the way) "You have weapons, they have weapons, EVERYONE has weapons. That means neither side has the advantage, that means this is the time to be sitting down and talking at the table. Right now peace can be acquired for a bargain price!" That's not the case anymore. The Federation and The Romulans are the only major powers that haven't had their face beat into the dirt, besides the Cardassians, they haven't been mentioned yet so I'm not going to speculate on them. The Romulans have been pretty much unaffected by the time re-write, and the Federation has at best had their nose bloodied, at worse, they've been struck a blow that'll take a few years to recover from. What I'm trying to say here, The Romulans and The Federation still have a substantial infrastructure, they haven't been crippled. So what would be good comes down to a few scenarios: 1. With the Klingons and Vulcans crippled, a large section of the Alpha Quadrant is now on the verge of a galactic civilization collapse, people - doesn't matter the race or allegiance - are now capitalizing on the opportunity. Basically lots of space pirates, raiding, that kind of things going on. It comes down to The Federation and The Romulans to hold the Alpha Quadrant together or they risk having a scenario similar to what happened when the Roman Empire fell apart. 2. The Vulcans fully submit to Star Fleet authority - for the logical sense of "if we don't, we run the risk of going extinct as a species", remember Original Timeline Spock is gone now. More and more Human/Vulcan hybrids like Spock are being born, just because there is so few Vulcans left. To the point of where they are artificially inducing Pon Farr just to try and get their population back up. During this, the Klingons are throw out a cry for help, and even though the Klingon Empire is on the verge of collapse, whoever they side with would still have a serious advantage. So The Federation and The Romulan Star Empire are basically in a bidding war with each other by tempting the Klingons with increasingly better and better offers to get them to side with their respective side. 3. Something, don't know what, something happens to the Romulans, could be the Borg, could be the Klingons lashing out because of their situation, whatever. _Something_ happens to the Romulan Star Empire, but they aren't crippled like the Vulcans or Klingons are/were, they're just dealt a blow that needs to be healed as soon as possble, or they risk The Romulan Star Empire not offering to help with the current status of the Alpha Quadrant, and now it's up to the Federation, already taxed by trying to help the Vulcans, and manage the situation with the Klingons to, outstretch a hand and help the Romulans. Because of the current state of the Alpha Quadrant, The Federation has to suck up some pride and strike deals with the Romulans because as it stands, they need the Romulans help to rebuild the Alpha Quadrant from its current state. This could be an epic set up for something that could arguably be worse than the Borg showing up in the Alpha Quadrant. Just my opinion. I'd like to know what you think. You know, if you bothered to read this far. Titty Sprinkles.

[@Lorerunner]

Noble VI Personally I find a combination of all of the above for your 3 scenarios to be something I'd love to see going forward. Set all that up and get the momentum going in the third movie, then pay off in a new television series (I can't be the only one wanting a new Star Trek series right... right?) As an aside, I definitely agree that thanks to a few relatively small changes, the alpha quadrant is completely screwed and at a crucial time during its development (the Original Series was always the expansion and the frontier, and it was thanks to people like Kirk who helped tame the A/B quadrants and lead to the TNG eras of prosperity at all).

[@noblevi3623]

Lorerunner Bah, I forgot to mention another critical thing. Khan attacked Star Fleet Headquarters in Into Darkness and killed dozens and dozens of experienced Captains and First Officers, I wouldn't have been surprised if there were a few other Admirals in there as well. That means you have to give people promotions, and that means you're most likely forcing younger more inexperienced people to take Authority. That actually makes letting Kirk keep the Enterprise at the end of Into Darkness make a lot more sense. And god, that scene with Captain Pike dying, that actually made me really upset. Kirk didn't have a father because of the new timeline, Pike was the closest thing he ever had. But that's not actually why I'm replying here, I'd like to know what you liked about my scenarios, and then if you took bits and pieces of each of them and put them together, what you'd take from each, what you'd throw out, and what you would add. You know, if you have time.

[@danielshottopics8187]

Lorerunner It's Possible we may get a new series after the 50th movie is DVD Blu Rayed, back in 2007 the contract that Abrams and Bad Robot gave Paramount is that there will be 3 movies and a TV series after the third movie has been DVD Blu Rayed even though they renewed the contract with the Actors and signed them up for Star Trek 4 so there is a good chance we will get that TV series that connects both universes lets hope.

[@danielshottopics8187]

+Noble VI A lot of people think that Spock Prime came from another universe not the Prime universes we Know do you think Spock Prime is from the Prime universe we Know?

[@Judokasting]

Not going to lie I really really hated this movie when it first came out. I thought this was a stupid reboot, I thought they were just deciding to go for a cash grab instead of paying the actors that had played previous characters bigger salaries they were coming in with lesser known actors if you will except maybe Pegg. Yeah at the time I really really hated it but now I consider it other Trek much better than Discovery I'll tell you that much but yeah this is like a separate trek that I can still enjoy.

[@decap008]

what is logical about being racist? wouldn't the vulcans be a bit more tolerant?

[@dreamwhisperer2340]

Arrogance is a feeling that seeps much more unnoticed than other feelings because it directly affects the view of one self and the situational awareness. it's a nearly irrepressible feeling unless you specifically suppress it constantly. It affects how you relate to everything, and therefore is the root of racism, especially where an entirely different species is involved ( See: mankind vs the rest of earth's life ) The Vulcans see humans the way we see monkeys: We can't help but feel superior due to our evolutionary advantage. It is logical in a sense, if you ignore that life is much, much more than an accumulation of specific traits, or an accounting of performances (see: chaos theory )

[@wolfsruhm]

And do not forget , even in Roddenberries Trek, Vulcan were portrait in exactly the same way generally, unless working for Starfleet, albeit not in such an overt form like in the Kelvin Trek

[@Infernal460]

16:00 I don't agree with your assessment with "old spock" and "new spock".

[@Lorerunner]

Infernal460 Fair enough, but what is your assessment in its place?

[@Infernal460]

I was not expecting a response. I wrote a lot of reply's and deleted all of them because this film is hard to talk/write about. Im writing as if we include "all" what happened not just in the film. So "Old Spock" messed up badly. He assured Nero he would deal with the situation (Romulus) and Nero trusted him. He trusted Spock and left his family on Romulus. Spock peddled false hope or miscalculated badly. And Nero loses everything except his ship and his crew which he had pledged to spock. Which could have been used to evacuate their family's. "Young spock" maybe be half human, but he has chosen a Vulcan way of life. With Vulcan destroyed. He is has been mentally hurt and is not in the right mind to deal with nero. He knows it, if you remember he wants to get to the fleet inform them of the situation so someone more senior can take control of the situation. So kirk shows him that he has "compromised" and should give up command. Spock can live as Vulcan and will be accepted as Vulcan among others who are not, as you said. But the film is young spock growing as a person as an officer not as a Vulcan accepting his humanity. Yes he does show affection to Uhurah but we have seen Vulcans being affectionate to others. --------------------------------------------------- PERSONAL THOUGHTS (The character not the actor) Old Spock should go back to his own time ifpossible or live in exile, not help the remaining Vulcans still alive. Why ? Because his presence is an insult, he is a huge reason why their planet gone why their love ones are dead. There is nothing that old spock can do nothing to make this up to them. How can he talk to other Vulcan after what he made possible for Nero to do to them. There is no redemption after that. I could go on about that stupid plan he devised with Kirk and Scotty but ive dispensed enough venom. The first 15 mins of this film with George Kirk are amazing, surprised it was not in your rumination. But in total. When the end credits came up at the end of this film I "ran" out of the cinema I was that repulsed.

[@Lorerunner]

Infernal460 Interesting thoughts. I agree that Old Spock messed up, badly (even he admits this, in his tone if not his words) but overall I can see where you're going with this. Ironically all the problems you mention, I feel, will be far more exemplified in the NEXT film.

[@Infernal460]

"Interesting thoughts" Nice diplomacy. Next film, 2 bad bits and TWO BLOODY AWSOME ACTION SCENES.

[@danielshottopics8187]

Lorerunner Just watched your Star Trek 12 new review and I just wanted to say you did great I really enjoyed it thanks.

[@skoch8249]

For some reason you ignore the tradition of movies like 2001: Space Odyssey, Solaris, Wrath Of Khan, Silent Running, Soylent Green, Sunshine, etc. that were neither trashy B-Movies nor amusement park rides aka Star Wars or the movie you're reviewing.

[@TheSyledir]

I saw no difference between the old and the new Kirk. He is cheeky, arrogant and wants to shag everything with a pulse. But he is also brave, competent and loyal. He is the perfect counter-balance to Spock.

[@matijerzykom]

If I may adress your opinion about EU cancellation - I did not see it as something insulting. There was no way, to make such a spin in Star Wars, as they did in Star Trek. And EU was not only slowly getting weaker and weaker, but also was too crowded, too dense, to include a new movie into it. Making Thrawn Trilogy movies is a stupid idea - it's far too late for that. And any story, that would fit into such continuity, would need far too much introduction. People would ask, who the hell are those people, what happened, and it would take half of the movie, to make all the matters clear. Cancellation of EU I don't mind that much. I just hoped it would be finished. What I have a problem with, is cancellation of Tales of the Jedi and Kotor era. That was pointless loss. The EU? Not so much, unfortunatelly.

[@egoalter1276]

Either make movies out of the zahn books, or make an alternate contineuity.

[@outofworkgamer4113]

i consider this film material for a lamentation. it's not star trek

[@deathsdoor07]

Deleted scenes are not canon.

[@thomasn3882]

3:50 Oh, I think you were right the first time; all too often, Star Trek is about ideology.

[@SideSwipeGTA]

god damn this movie is hot garbage. It's insultingly terrible to me as a Star Trek fan.

[@KainiaKaria]

Snobby Star Trek fans aka Trekers complaining about this film.