Rutger Bregman on elites, survival of the friendliest, rethinking human history

[@MacEoin]

I am near the end of the book, and I have to say it has made a deeper impression on me than almost anything else I have read. If I add that I am 71 years old, that I have a long academic background, and have read thousands of books and essays in more than one language, it may convey how Bregman has overturned so many of my assumptions. Everyone should read the book, which is a treasure trove of his extensive research and insightful thinking.

[@philsarkol341]

I take my hat of for you sir..in aknowledging many assumptions you've had are now overturned after reading Bregman. He is such an intelligent man, historian who comes with logic suggestions in solving many problems, based on historic facts and evidence. I hope they, the elite, will not be able to silence him.

[@myself2noone]

Really? I'm not nearly as well read, and I went in agreeing with the guy, but left thinking his reasoning was a little bit moronic. Like it's clear he never actually read The Selfish Gene. Or if he did he misunderstood it. As that's the book I would point to for why I went into this agreeing with him. So dispite the author's best efforts I agree.

[@andrewtruscott8515]

@@myself2noone What?!

[@MartijnVos]

@@myself2noone We are not merely our genes, though. We can think, act, feel. Genes can't. The "selfishness" of a gene is an abstraction; it really just is.

[@ViviFriend]

Finding Rutger Bregman was the best part of 2020. He’s such a good role model. I’m still reading the utopia for realists, so grateful for all his work!

[@thesehandsart]

The fact that we do not use the information that we've gathered through the progress of psychology and understanding human behavior to help solve these problems leads me to believe that our leaders are either unwilling or unable to access this widely understood and long standing understanding of human behavior and it frustrated and astounds me!

[@aosagi79]

Starts with apologizing for the AV quality of the content, proceeds to have an intelligent, interesting and thought provoking conversation. The quality of content is not just fine, sir. It is exceptional.

[@mojganfakharian4104]

At least someone is decent. More like him please.

[@thefunkybassist9916]

Yes he has balanced views that cross through left and right, which seems very rare in this day and age. And it's high time that billionaires are held responsible for their global amassment and use of their massive wealth.

[@TheAnnoyingMop]

@@thefunkybassist9916 Which right leaning views do you see in Rutger?

[@santiagoroo4691]

@@thefunkybassist9916 held responsible for being rich?...I'm sorry, since when is that a crime?

[@ACTUALLYrussell]

Dont be fooled so easily, he's arguing for UBI which inherently spells disaster for a lot of people, they've given us a taste of that lifestyle with the furlough scheme. You have to be very careful with these so called "opposers" of the elites, just remember if they were true opposition they wouldn't be invited to Davos, they wouldn't be getting interviewed on mainstream outlets either believe me...

[@MartijnVos]

Rutger Bregman is my favourite modern thinker and writer. I love his incredibly well-sourced optimism. Exactly the kind of thinker we need in our world today.

[@sharmapratyush007]

Profound statement by Rutger - "When elite people look in the mirror, they assume other people are as selfish as they are".

[@jodyqt]

Everyone has the desire to be more elite

[@timshannonnd1054]

@@jodyqt I know a lot of people that feel as I do, we do NOT want to be an elite. That sounds like a real drag for many reasons. So I would disagree with your assumption.

[@jodyqt]

Tim Shannon, ND I cant imagine a life without the struggle to do better achieve goals fix things create things push the boundaries of knowledge striving to be the best I can be. But if your saying that’s you and there are others like you then I’ll have to take your word for it. I can only beg you to try to be the best version of yourself you can achieve the struggle is worth it.

[@Mad_Intellect]

@@jodyqt Nah, most people just want some dignity in life, to be able to workfor/earn a living and to not live below the poverty line, not everyone is selfish and greedy.

[@Mad_Intellect]

@@jodyqt also imo to be the best version of yourself is not being 'elite,' to be elite is to be regarded as better than most/all.

[@MrMartibobs]

Oh my God, Rutger Bregman, you are a wonderful human being.

[@Sickofdrawingcowboys717]

This guy needs more airtime! The powers behind the curtain are not allowing it.

[@lucasgrey9794]

The powers that be LOVE guys like Bregman. Bregman's ideology is actually NOT a threat to Big business. In fact, the opposite is true.

[@rossleeson8626]

The media is not a group of people sitting around a table.

[@kurisensei]

Why do I keep seeing and hearing about him everywhere then?

[@lucasgrey9794]

@@kurisensei The answer is in his last name.

[@lucasgrey9794]

@@rossleeson8626 It actually is.

[@jeanneelliott7243]

Yes, "understanding is not condoning." Such a necessary concept in everyday life.

[@j.10101.j]

I’m so glad you’re back Krishnan!! This is my favourite series because you’re such a powerful and insightful moderator. Thank for for doing what you continue to do - shining a light on how to make the world a better place!

[@se4949]

He is a weasel

[@User0resU-1]

He's kind of reasonable in this interview, nice change.

[@jennifermackinnon6982]

FANTASTIC. Love Rutger Bregman so much. Such inspiring, novel ideas. So refreshing.

[@laurentb7178]

yeah , till the day he will start killing fields

[@saradennishay6782]

Such a welcome breath of fresh air amidst all the turmoil in the world. Great motivation and insight. Thank you!

[@joanstamp]

Just discovered Rutger. What a positive person. Will be watching his series on Netflix.

[@Mslrhendricks]

Great summary of the book for people who can't get their hands on the book from the library because it is so popular. I like the part at the end about designing schools that will bring out the best in our kids instead of the worst.

[@vietashroffoliver2521]

Thanks for this thought provoking video. When humanity left Africa approximately 270,000 years ago, they lived in cooperative societies without permanent elite leaders. Barry Brown's excellent book "Humanity, the world before religion, war & inequality", is also an eye opener.

[@nkenchington6575]

Yes, and I'd add 'The Dawn Of Everything,' by Davids Graeber and Wengrow.

[@vietashroffoliver2521]

@@nkenchington6575 thanks I'll have to read it sometime soon

[@luminyam6145]

Listening to an interview with Rutger Bregman is worth any amount of technical issues. Great interview, thank you.

[@cherylmassimo7395]

This is a very beautiful discussion. We are in a time when we need to build on what is positive about humans to survive. Thank you for this uplifting perspective.

[@dambrooks7578]

This was brilliant, I need to share this positive message beyond the echo chamber and hope that it reaches other mindsets. Thank you very much both Rutger and Krishnan.

[@tap10lan]

There was a media strike in Israel in the 80s, and if I remember correctly, there was less violence during that period. The theory was that people talked to one another, and looked at people around them, rather than read/watch news, and get polarized views of how other groups are. Sort of nice.

[@Alex0Hamilton]

Finally, yes Richie Alan this guy needs more air time. Seeing Rutger Bregman on Novara Media was also very informative

[@conjordan4459]

Rutger thank you for for focusing on the good life and wisdom!

[@irenetheochari8742]

Such an insightful conversation. Many of the comments reflected what I have learned from authors such as Charles Darwin, Georg Simmel and Sam Harris so now I want to hear more from Rutger Bregman. This is the quality of discourse which we need to incorporate into our everyday lives, e.g. politics and education.

[@edcranium500]

I think this is a better format than the TV version. Seeing the discussion face to face makes me feel like a 'participant', rather than in the TV version as an 'observer'. Also, this segment is a crucial part of what makes C4 News more relevant to a thinking audience. I believe there is an audience like me that cares less about production quality and more about engaging and factual content. I already do not watch the news on TV. I gave up my licence a few years ago in protest and dismay at the seeming willingness by another news channel to edit a video interview to hide the fact that the answer didn't fit the intended narrative. I would, therefore, welcome more C4 content on KZbin. I'm willing to pay a subscription for that.

[@yusususuf]

Honestly feel like if we were just taught that people themselves are basically a friendly lot who've outlived other hominids specifically bc of their capacity for cooperation and not simply 'survival of the fittest' all the damn time, the world would be a better place

[@komi-creative]

'Survival of the fittest' needs to die a death pronto. Gives roots to the 'everyone out for themselves' nonsense.

[@chaeriplease]

this so much

[@cynicshminic]

This is an excellent interview. Good work Krishnan and Rutger

[@lindasapiecha2515]

Its very true the more negative news you watch the more depressive and hopeless you feel

[@noreenhappel8531]

If people were'nt so scarred emotionally, by war, poverty, unmet needs in childhood, sexual and physical and verbal abuse, they would be much kinder. If out governments took good care of their populations, things could be so much better.

[@beebkapeepka]

A refreshing view giving me hope.

[@bdbtbb]

Rutger is very interesting. This deserves loads of views.

[@theroots3596]

Thanks Rutger. The basic needs of life for all creatures is the common ground with Love being the prime motivator. One Planet, One People. Peace.

[@Silvertestrun]

Thank you!

[@ArneSkov]

Thanks to Rutger and Krishnan for providing a bit of optimisme. And to all the commentators her for confirming friendly conversation. Maybe the follow-up then will help us to understand why the destructors have so much more influence than the friendliest

[@markbertram9240]

Great interview.

[@nicolediemer9]

Both lovely people who bring the best in others. Thank you

[@MrDubjim]

Rutger Bregman is brilliant, genius in simplicity. Utopia For Realists and Human Kind are fantastic reads.

[@fiammavalli3732]

Thank you for the professor speech

[@annateg3063]

I just love this!

[@l1ncs]

lovely interview .. please pursue further dialogue and expand topics

[@mazkraut9776]

What a great interview and what fantastic ideas! It got me thinking about the stories we tell ourselves about who we are... Could Channel 4 News maybe start a kind of "Channel 4 Good News" series, in which you report on the things that provide some evidence for humans being kind to each other? I know that traditionally people are more interested in hearing about the threats, but just now, and probably also in the future, hearing more about our kind and cooperative sides might actually help change things for the better!

[@michaelbasher]

Excellent conversation and what a remarkable viewpoint. Full on

[@davidw8294]

Thanks for that. Really hopeful and definitely needed in these times(/any times!)

[@AmbientWalking]

Really great ideas. So good for the future of humanity. Love it!

[@drhirise1]

Yeah! Being nice feels good.

[@neurojitsu]

The BBC documentary maker David Malone once interviewed the mathematical biologist Martin Nowak for his documentary, "Why are we here?" Malone interviewed Nowak about his mathematical modelling of "co-operation" which aimed to explore the question (paraphrasing), "if natural selection favours survival of the fittest, then why do we even have cooperation?" (BTW: cooperation is found EVERYWHERE in nature). What his modelling found is that where groups of collaborators meet groups of non-collaborators, the collaborators "win". Why? Because behind every co-operator confronting a "defector" (the language he uses in his model), the co-operator has the support of lots of others behind him - and the defector does not. That's the good news. The bad news is that co-operation is mathematically stable at about 31% of the population, and those clusters of co-operation come and go over time. So there is more competition 'in the system' at any one point in time. I guess one question is how "power" accumulates and stacks "the system" in favour of exploitative forces that seem to constrain cooperation, or define the rules in their interests. I'm thinking of things like zero hours contracts, gig economy platforms, lobbying that drives public policy, etc. I WANT to believe that being friendly wins, but I'm still cynical a lot of the time.

[@DSimonJones]

Msm propoganda goebbels pr is essential.

[@Olivia-W]

The anomalous individuals (psychopaths, sociopaths) seem to accumulate at the higher levels of hierarchy. As for why they stay there- people don't seem to challenge them. A lot of authority is based on the fact people respect that authority. There are too few dissidents to stand up and say no. Group cooperation works against corrections then.

[@toripurgers9769]

Our Nature is kind, our Culture is violent.

[@embee.Stencil.Artist]

Thank you, great conversation, I have just started reading Humankind.

[@kathleenbren1523]

I remember getting in trouble back in the 1960d with thr minister came into our confirmation class to tell the boys how it was their patriotic duty to fight in Vietnam for our country ( protests had started on campuses). I raised my hand. Said I was confused and asked how the people in Vietnam who we had raised our pennies for in our Bible classes for years had now become evil, our enemies and we needed to go across the ocean and invade their country to kill them. I was not being " smart mouthed", I really wanted to know as it did not make sense. Our course this was not well received.

[@kentlarsen5834]

Yes, Vietnam was a conspiracy by the U.S. to make money. War makes money by building weapons of mass destruction, and stimulates the economy. Ho Chi Mihn didn't want war. He just wanted to unify his country. We caused their civil war, and we killed 3 million Vietnamese, then left. And we sprayed Vietnam with agent orange which causes cancer. And is still causing birth defects in Vietnamese people people today.

[@joanstamp]

I live in Aus and don't lock doors either 🌞

[@CasparMacRae]

It takes a sociopath to stir the mob into atrocious acts (thanks C4, always a joy to read/hear Rutger Bregman's theories wonderfully tied to historical fact)

[@Freakoutski]

Rule 11: Don't read the KZbin comments. Probably best not to type them either, just to be safe.

[@bicealmeida9809]

Freakoutski why not ?

[@frederikhyrup2871]

I disagree. Except that google now own your thoughts and statements for perpertuity.

[@catherinejoy9298]

Very interesting podcast! I have a friend who literally just finished reading 'Humankind' and she really enjoyed it, and, feels hopeful for the future of mankind, so, wanted to know who he was and what he had to say!

[@dianacasey6002]

I really enjoyed this especially in lockdown in Melbourne I feel more positive for a moment

[@binaybajracharya1787]

Nice. We should move ahead in our lives with kindness for each other rather than with aggressive killer instinct to dominate other to attain our goal. We are all connected! A disease anywhere, is disease everywhere.

[@Olivia-W]

Yeah... working together, things get done. If the group is capable of and consistent with enforcing a policy of tolerance, being there us just so much... better. Calmer. I just noticed this on a Minecraft server I come to- mods do very little, but the community is remarkably self-policing. Griefing, stealing, bad behavior- are very stigmatised. We have the proper plugins, but when one group wanted to start a war, _literally every single mayor of every other town got together and decided we would never have wars._ Starting out isn't easy, so new players are directed and equipped with basic tools. Any errant players are kept in check, and if anyone would repeatedly prove irreformable, there's a standing agreement they're free real estate for PKing. No one has crossed that line yet.

[@johnreilly5371]

Excellent stuff! thank you Krishnan and Rutger

[@stikeMedia]

Fantastic interview, thank you! Looking forward to getting my hands on the new book

[@albertplumer]

The golden rule : do onto others as you would like done onto you. A reciprocal mutual arrangrment .

[@chaeriplease]

It's actually funny you say that because he directly opposes this saying in his latest book: The Golden Rule of virtually every philosophy in world history is some form of: ‘Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you.’ […] These days, billions of parents repeat the Golden Rule to their children. It comes in two flavours: the positive injunction (‘Treat others as you wish to be treated’) and the negative injunction (‘Do not do unto others what you would not have them …’). Some neurologists even believe the rule is a product of millions of years of human evolution and is programmed into our brains.8 Even so, I’ve come to believe the Golden Rule falls short. Empathy can be a bad guide: the simple fact is we’re not always good at sensing what others want. All those managers, CEOs, journalists and policymakers who think they do are effectively robbing others of their voice. This is why you so seldom see refugees interviewed on TV. This is why our democracy and journalism constitute mostly one-way traffic. And this is why our welfare states are steeped in paternalism. Far better would be to start by asking a question. To let citizens have their say, as in the participatory democracy in Porto Alegre (see Chapter 15). To let employees direct their own teams, as in Jean-François Zobrist’s factory (see Chapter 13). To let kids plot their own learning pathways, as in Sjef Drummen’s school (see Chapter 14). This variation on the familiar maxim, also known as the ‘Platinum Rule’, was nicely summed up by George Bernard Shaw. ‘Do not do unto others as you would that they should do unto you,’ he advised. ‘Their tastes may be different.

[@moirahaarhoff5286]

Nothing new in this, but probably one of those things which every generation has to learn for themselves.

[@aliwright1016]

Yes! Bregman! Very interesting ...perfect. #TruthToPower good one Channel 4 xx

[@aliwright1016]

#RealLordOfTheFlies

[@imrannazir6931]

Krishnan was on telly when I was in primary school. He is still on the telly 40 years later and looks younger than I do.

[@simjea]

It was a great talk. The don't watch the news part might have been a little difficult for you but your restraint was commendable

[@bellavita2005]

On the other side of kindness, there is the Stanford Prison experiment, where the students took a part as a prisoner or a guard. The guards became so cruel, the experiment had to be terminated. That is a very discouraging and frightening look at human nature,

[@ewrh78]

Thank you

[@chriswhitty8547]

Fun fact: Being autistic does not mean you have an illness or disease. It means your brain works in a different way from other people. It's something you're born with or first appears when you're very young. If you're autistic, you're autistic your whole life. Autism is not a medical condition with treatments or a "cure". But some people need support to help them with certain things.

[@vietashroffoliver2521]

I'm watching this video again 4 years on from when it was posted. Now we have wars raging in Ukraine, in Gaza, in Sudan, DRC and skirmishes around the world. We are also destroying our environment. Why can't we humans cooperate for the betterment of all life that share this planet? Abrahamic religions seem to be a poison, like human greed, anger and ignorance of the true nature of life.

[@andyzeng9463]

I totally agree with his statement that nowadays news always depress us by sensationalising the issue.

[@Longtack55]

I enjoy this interviewer. I've defended his interview with Prof Dawkins as he asked insightful questions without necessarily displaying his personal views. Objective and intelligent - a treasure. People made the assumption that because he was culturally from the "dark sub-continent" that he was incapable of asking unbiased questions, and had an agenda about religion.

[@Jim-os6ed]

Rutger is awesome!

[@LucianandSage]

This is more relevant now than ever.

[@Marmer]

Rutger's ten commandments 21:10 1. When in doubt, assume the best 24:30 2. Think in win-win scenarios 25:45 3. Ask more questions 26:55 4. Temper your empathy, train your compassion 27:38 5. Try to understand the other even if you don't get where they are coming from 30:05 6. Love your own as others love their own 31:44 7. Avoid the news 33:25 8. Don't punch Nazis 35:10 9. Come out of the closet, don't be ashamed to do good 36:10 10. Be realistic

[@richardcashley5856]

Virtually all the bad things going on can be attributed to Murdoch media

[@DSimonJones]

Pr

[@LokiBeckonswow]

yep, Murdoch created his cancerous media model in the 60s/70s in Australia after being groomed for the industry by his father - Murdoch then began spreading this model of drama and sensationalism through the UK, and eventually to America - he's been very closely tied to numerous leaders in those 3 countries for decades, and his media practices has single-handedly played huge roles in the abuse of the political/journalistic landscape in Australia, the propagation of propaganda and the subsequent lack of trust for anything in America, as well as campaigning obsessively for Brexit - Name one person since Hitler/Stalin who has done more damage to the modern world. Also, I'm australian, and yes, I am deeply ashamed that Murdoch was born here.

[@Strykehjerne]

Sounds exactly like what we were taught at school.. . And I think it has worked pretty well for us. 🇳🇴

[@Cmanuel1025]

Excellent podcast!

[@gamerknown]

There's a pretty big ellipsis on the Israel/Palestine question where he's describing prioritising one's own city over those thousands of miles away. Principled non-intervention is a completely comprehensible stance: perhaps the world would have been a better place without Operation Cyclone, Infinite Reach, NSDD-17 and so forth. However, there's no policy proscription to follow. The US provides billions in military aid to Israel every year. In May of this year, Israel was responsible for 249 Palestinian deaths, including at least 60 children. Palestine was responsible for 13 Israeli deaths, including 2 children. Israel has been in violation of international law regarding occupation and conquest for the past 40 years. If we're to look at this soberly and without excessive empathy nor compassion, surely international law would take precedence in our concerns?

[@koreawong]

a wonderful interview. loved his book

[@paulbucklebuckle4921]

Not just Australia I live in the UK don't allways lock up at night and have left the back door open for 3 months once while abroad ,, no problems ,,

[@sephirothsinic]

Don't assume the worst is very powerful!

[@aleishaadorni7979]

I only looked him up because he called out the elites at Davos. Hope he doesn't disappoint.

[@Reaper1947]

You may not like Bregman's ideas but you have to admit he makes you think. TheReaper!

[@shaunoftheEd]

He recommends at one point to just read a Sunday newspaper rather than follow the news. Can anyone out there recommend a good British newspaper/whatever to read each week to enrich ones life and stay up to date with things? 20 years old, living in london, feeling dispossessed.

[@steinarhiback8098]

This was great thoughts, thank you so much. Must bay the book....

[@johannnyborg3998]

This is why Danes are the happiest people. We live bye those rules. Also we trust in people.

[@iainthompson9960]

Anyone know the name of the Dutch school Rutger mentioned right at the end of the video?

[@KarlSnarks]

The school is called Agora and located in the town of Roermond. It was founded (or restructured to its new philosophy, he's not clear on that in his writing) only recently in 2014, by Sjef Drummen. Edit: Google says Agora is the name of the educational concept not the school itself. The school's name is Niekée school. Edit: Here is the link to their website, though it's all in Dutch www.verenigingagoraonderwijs.nl

[@teleuitzetter]

Thanks for this post! I love it and Rutger Bregman's contagious optimism. Human's aren't all shitheads. We need each other. We're interdependent, as the Dalai Lama says. Let's stop throwing mud at each other.

[@fritzeger]

Enjoyed that Thankyou.

[@smellypunks]

Was it not Rousseau who argued that the arts and sciences had not been beneficial to humankind... Amazing how one person can have some good ideas but also some really really bad ideas!

[@MrLittlelud4]

I can see this is an important idea , thanks for showing it.

[@donstravelsandrants.]

Great stuff 😀👍 Can't wait to buy his books 😁

[@monikaseidenberg5403]

People are cruel and brutal because of early childhood trauma, brutality, abuse, violence and neglect during childhood.

[@ottofrank3445]

Groeten uit Amsterdam (my regards from Amsterdam)

[@SorenAraujo]

Can we make him prime minister please? Pretty please?

[@corylus86]

Great interview! Can anyone recommend any other books on asking great questions?

[@chriswhitty8547]

Fun fact: When Shrek removes his helmet after saving Fiona, revealing himself to be an Ogre, he sarcastically asks if she was expecting Prince Charming. This turned out to literally be true in Shrek 2 (2004) where Fiona's purpose for being in the tower was revealed.

[@alexandercone8582]

Thanks

[@pricriminal8891]

Chris Whitty, where were you yesterday?

[@monteletourneau7159]

I've been trying to find a better way to say this for 35 years, there is not one. Most salient point of the age. More powerful than global warming. Survival of the Friendliest -> Cynics need a perspective update the most. Human nature is good. Let it be. Niceness is most fit, and what makes humans different. Be nice, the better better.

[@williammcgrath6952]

"Nobody is good", said Jesus, who also said that "the meek shall inherit the earth". To understand human nature we must take into account, overall, our animal nature as creatures of appetite, psychic (egoistic) as well as physical, with inborn quest of survival and overall self-impelled sense of self-assertion. Addictive behavior is always at play here, along with the corruptability that goes along with it. "Nobody is good", said Jesus. That is, we're all corruptable, fallible, and subject to temptation

[@Reaper1947]

I like Rutger because he is IMO an outside the box thinker. Do I think we will ever see a world like he imagines? NO! I don't but I think we can do better especially here in the U.S. on healthcare along with mental healthcare instead of prisons. Basically we can do better that we are doing especially for the poor. TheReaper!

[@balansefanny649]

inspiring and motivating

[@aHarzoo]

Reminds me of a professor I had at Uni, the friend I never had.

[@Amyroblox92]

Guys does Rutger Bregman have a KZbin channel ? I can't find it , could anyone help pls finding it if exist ?

[@MrJimheeren]

He has a podcast but that’s all in Dutch though. The correspondent has a lot of translated material. So start there

[@fevkaladeninfevki]

Friendliness. That must be the reason all colonizers won and all natives lost and basically erased.