Are humans fundamentally decent? | UpFront

For centuries, philosophers and historians from Machiavelli to Thucydides to Thomas Hobbes have said human beings are primarily motivated by self-interest, inherently competitive, or even born evil.
This idea has permeated Western culture for centuries and influenced major social, economic and foreign policy decision-making.
But Rutger Bregman, a Dutch historian and author, challenges this conventional wisdom and believes people are, well, actually fundamentally pretty decent. His latest book, Humankind: A Hopeful History, proposes a new worldview predicated on what he refers to as "survival of the friendliest".
On UpFront, Marc Lamont Hill talks to Rutger Bregman about why he believes history should make us hopeful about the future of humanity.
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[@efortune357]

Notes and quotes: 2:32 “In the last couple of decades we’ve seen a major shift in science. So, many scientists from very diverse disciplines; anthropology, psychology, archeology, sociology, you name it, they’ve been moving towards a more hopeful view of ‘human nature’, a more hopeful picture of who we are deep down as a species. The thing with these specialists is that they’re so specialized … That’s the reason why I wanted to write this book is to give people the big picture of what’s been happening, what’s been going on, is that scientists are now emphasizing that we are not fundamentally selfish. No. We’ve evolved to cooperate. We’re actually a product of what they call ‘survival of the friendliest’. Which really means what you think it means, is that the biggest part of our history when we were nomadic hunter-gatherers, which was around 300,000 years, it was actually the friendliest among us who had the most kids and the biggest chance of passing on their genes to the next generation. Friendliness helped us to survive. It was our secret superpower. Now, I think that’s a pretty major shift in how we look at human nature.” 4:15 What about human atrocities? We are also the most brutal 5:15 No archeological evidence for war before agriculture “Most people are decent but power corrupts.” 12:15 “I’ve never really liked these dogmatic debates about capitalism vs socialism. It’s pretty clear to me that you can have terrible capitalist societies such as the U.S. where life expectancy is actually going down right now. U.S. GDP per capita is like 50% higher than in Spain but people live 5 years longer in Spain. So, clearly something is going bad there. There’s a huge amount of diversity obviously. So, the way I envision it that civilized, just societies provides all these public services, high quality health care, high quality public education, a basic guaranteed income for everyone. We’re more than rich enough right now to completely eradicate poverty. And I think that’s actually an investment that pays for itself.” 15:15 Norway prison system, doesn’t look like a prison at all. Recidivism rates are lowest in the world. US prisons are universities for crime. ***22:55 UBI “Basic income. This is actually a really exciting idea and we can completely eradicate poverty. And what we see now is that there are dozens of experiments happening all over the globe. There was actually a recent piece in The New York Times about the huge wave of experiments in the U.S. And I think that’s really exciting. People are starting to realize that poverty is not a lack of character. It’s just a lack of cash. And how do you solve a lack of cash? Well, you give people money. That’s what you do. Because poor people themselves are the experts on their own lives. There’s nothing wrong with them. They just don’t have the means, they don’t have the venture capital to invest in their own lives. And what the evidence shows quite clearly again, and again, is that when you invest in people, when you give them the means to make their own choices a lot of positive things happen. Kids do better in school. Health improves. People find new jobs, they start new companies.”

[@duuhwinning6589]

I'd say no, if no one is connected to truth ! Truth sets everyone free.

[@wrdna58]

Brilliant interview

[@scrumtious1]

Found it odd that the presenter spent so much time trying to wage the socialism vs capitalism "war". Rutger wasn't having it and just gave facts of where and why capitalism doesn't work well. I'm still not sure why it is still so controversial to challenge capitalism when we see clearly the issues it brings about. Why is it so hard to understand that there are clearly ppl who benefit immensely from the status quo. What's wrong with wanting to create a decent standard of life for everyone not just an elite few?

[@socialanarchy081]

Over time, capitalism beats compassion and friendliness out of its subjects.

[@definitlynotbenlente7671]

A d socialism encourages it

[@user-lw3jo2mj9l]

Right, because all human woes can be laid at the feet of a 200 year old economic system 🙄 The reality is, humans are not fundamentally decent. We have two natures or inclinations within us: a positive and a negative. Both are very real. The negative inclination drags us down and away from all that is good, and because it originates in the heart, most people confuse it for some right intuition (hence why so many choose to do evil.) Evil is always the easier choice than good. If someone always does what is easy, they will always do what is wrong. Believing that we are fundamentally good (and can thus trust our fundamental instincts to lead us in the right direction) is an idea that lowers everyone who believes in it to the lowest common denominator of human action and inaction.

[@zohaibayyaz]

One of the best episodes of upfront ❤

[@squallleonheart8494]

I do agree with this young Dutch historian and philosopher.. humankind are indeed decent by default... We care for our own selves as well as for the well being of others at the same time... We can't be pure ultimate selfish species... It won't make any sense . If it were the truth then we would cease to exist the moment homosapiens started to exist in this dimension..

[@avocadomonkey4892]

Rutger Bregman brings in different approaches to showing how people are essentially collaborative and friendly, and interesting perspectives, such as that Universal Basic Income could be seen as venture capitalism for the poor. But the interviewer seems stuck on capitalism and human nature as evil, even after Bregman says on way oligarchs preserve the hierarchical status quo is by making us all distrust each other. Hill seems to think this is about being persuaded to change his mind, rather than about drawing out what Bregman has to share/teach.

[@thusspokezarathustra]

Let's that Turkey as an example. Turkey has known seismic faultlines that crisscross the country which have historically resultant in devastating destruction and loss of life. Yet despite the state pass legislation towards introducing guidelines on building standards that would minimise earth quack destruction, there was a massive loss of property and life due to built structure not meting the legislated regulatory guidelines. Is this non-compliance just carelessness due to inadequate knowledge or cutting corners to ensure maximum profit based on sheer greed and/or a conscious decision by actors in the market (state regulators and contractors alike) to circumvent regulations because these have a impact on performance and/or profit. The result we witnessed on the 6th February 2023; in which many lives were lost due to building failure - mostly it seemed from non-regulatory compliance and/or older legacy structure that were built outside regulatory guidelines. As the knowledge on how to build safer earthquack resistant structures has been available for a number of decades - is the wilful non-compliance not a form of criminally negligence - therefore evil in a way that such wanton negligence disregards the safety of the citizens utilising such structure built along known fault zones? If the motivation is purely profit at the expense of safety that would be knowingly criminal negligence. However, if the neglect to comply is based on economic insufficiencies and lack of knowhow then the realities of markets of scale come into play. What's built is what can be afforded, therefore safety is a secondary consideration. Therefore it is difficult to judge bad intention unless all the facts are known. Self-interest is a massive contributor to all things economic and social development is closely correlated to economic wellbeing. Hence the disparity between the so-called First World and Third World development. The level of altruism can be correlated to the level of general wealth (social wellness).

[@naturegirl4803]

Very nice discussion and interesting study by the scholar. Yes man is primordially friendly but weak in controlling passion, therefore does atrocities and cruelty to secure self preservation, that Islam says. The reason is that he wants to secure all things for him, family because through material gains, tries to secure future. That's his perspective but real goal is different from material truth and that lies in only living with goodness, Submitting to God and living by permanent n ethical values.

[@duuhwinning6589]

Disparity has gotten much muuuuch worse !! Idiots just dont see it, so maybe god is proud of ignorance, just like he wanted the fruit of knowledge not be eaten !

[@corwinchelway9969]

We are actively delaying human progress in the name of decency... Ask yourself... when humanity goes extinct... what value will abstract concepts of cruelty or kindness have? This conversation isn't 'wrong' it's simply an unhealthy distraction from any dialogue that actually matters...

[@duuhwinning6589]

What would be the path to progress ?

[@jeremycompton3010]

No, they are not.

[@ganiti_314]

They or we?

[@ansh_u_r]

Human are fundamentally human and non human are fundamentally religious..

[@darius8214]

Yes, Angels, Spirits, Animals, and Plants all submit to The God, Lord of All Worlds.

[@ansh_u_r]

@@darius8214 God permeates everything, nothing claim existence free from God..who is the only existence..

[@mrtienphysics666]

Jane Goodall has proven that even chimpanzee wage war. War is natural and ancient

[@theyeening]

Humans aren't chimpanzees, lol

[@mrtienphysics666]

@@theyeening same common ancestor

[@efortune357]

Chimps and Bonobos are equally related to humans. Bonobos don't have war, haven't been observed raping, and no homicides have been observed in the wild or in captivity. If we bring up chimps we should also bring up bonobos. Or even better we look at hunter-gatherers. War does not appear to be a human thing until after agriculture developed only 10ish thousand years ago. And humans have been around for 300,000 years.

[@user-lw3jo2mj9l]

@@efortune357 there was no recorded history before agriculture, how would you know if human tribes didn't war against one another before then? In all likelihood they did, since war and aggression are innate parts of the human experience and nature. even babies have innate aggression that must be socialized out of them by the time they grow up

[@efortune357]

@@user-lw3jo2mj9l Hi Ethan, I’m not an anthropologist. However, there does seem to be some consensus as far as I can tell about this issue specifically within anthropology. Anthropologists do make a distinction between “interpersonal violence/agression” which happens, and “war” which are very different things. For example, the anthropologist Douglas P. Fry has written specifically about the anthropological findings in his book “Beyond War” You can find his lectures online where he summarizes his findings. Some other quotes that you might find of interest: ***“If you look at that evidence there’s not as much trauma, bony trauma evidence as there is once we made the transition to agricultural societies and civilizations. There appears to be less skeletal evidence of trauma for 95% of human existence that we lived as hunter-gatherers, forager societies, and then you begin to see more records in the modern era of a lot of trauma.” ~Dr. Stephen Bezruchka (Senior Lecturer at the University of Washington’s School of Public Health ***… “Psychologist Steven Pinker argues that over time we’ve been able to use reason and the “better angels of our nature” to make improvements in reducing violence. Would you agree with his analysis? “There’s something to that, but the story that he presents is pretty shaky. I mean, ninety-five percent, roughly, of human history is in hunter-gatherer societies. He claims that they were very violent and brutal, but the specialists on the topic don’t agree with him. There’s work by some of the leading people who work on indigenous societies-Brian Ferguson, Douglas Fry, Stephen Cory-they just claim [that Pinker’s notion about hunter-gatherers is] completely false. The large-scale killings are pretty much associated with the origin of cities and the state system.” ~Noam Chomsky There are also some Scientific American articles that go into this written by John Horgan: -“New Study of Prehistoric Skeletons Undermines Claim That War Has Deep Evolutionary Roots” (2013 Sci Am) -“Survey of Earliest Human Settlements Undermines Claim that War Has Deep Evolutionary Roots”(2013 Sci Am) - “War Scholars Critiques New Study of Roots of Violence” (2016 Sci Am)

[@sirseegull]

very shallow side of dutch culture you see here. The speaker who is dutch doesn’t really have a leg to stand on as most everything is free and taken care of for young adults into their studies and well beyond. Hardship is what this speaker clearly lacks, seems to be college pipelined middle class lad with a skewed view. Yes man can be kind but he just glosses over our entire history to this point. Our world today is a cruel, hard, and very financially turbulent society. This doesn’t bring any friendliness to humanity’s nature now nor will it in the future.

[@mikespg]

Jesus says none are good but God/Jesus, all humans are sinners and need salvation. How you can be saved by the living God who loves you. Here is how you can accept Christ into your life: Admit your need. (I am a sinner) Be willing to turn from your sins. (Repent) Believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the cross and rose from the grave. (Be saved by faith) Through prayer, invite Jesus Christ to control your life through the Holy Spirit. (Receive him as Lord and Savior). Meditate on the Holy word of God {the Holy Bible} day and night. Jesus Christ is Lord he reigns forever and ever. John 3;16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

[@scrumtious1]

Yes the Jesus delusion 😐

[@definitlynotbenlente7671]

@@scrumtious1 in Buddhism all are born good but the evil of this world can corupt you so you must follow the teachings of budda

[@scrumtious1]

@@definitlynotbenlente7671 whilst I respect your beliefs I prefer to follow the learns from several sources and groups who have studied the matter such as Rutger, Yuval Noah Harari and other historian, anthropologists and scholars who have studied the matter throughout different periods. Their conclusions do however line up with the teachings of Buddha where excessive power, lack of accountability and consequences for certain actions do have a corrupting effect.

[@mikespg]

@@scrumtious1 "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

[@mikespg]

@@scrumtious1 Jesus Christ and salvation for his children is much more important, the end is near and times and events are once again playing out exactly as the Bible predicted just as all the other prophecies in the Holy Bible did, I encourage you to study the Bible, old and new testiments and see for yourself.