S11 EP 10 | THE MASCULINITY DEBATE

In this season’s epic season finale, Oscar and Eli share their views on the contentious topic of masculinity and how different platforms have interpreted it in society today. From ideas shared on the Art of Masculinity to anthropological accounts on what it means to be a man in an evolving society, this season ends on the fundamental pillars that define the podcast today.
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[@deemb5284]

I'm really triggered by this conversation. It's unrealistic to live like the guy who had an accident with Oscar....no one expects men to sacrifice so much for the comfort of others. Could that be the reason guys have more mental health issues and suicidal. Anyway I don't want to be that wife whose husband stresses so I can be comfortable

[@ManTalkKe]

That is exactly the point. 😉

[@deemb5284]

@manTalk Ke thanks for bringing such an important topic for conversation

[@wanjikukimani8974]

I have a theory,due to globalization we have been exposed to conversations at the top of Maslow's hierachy such as introspection and value systems however as a third world country we are still dealing with issues at the bottom of the pyramid such as basic needs.As a result it becomes harder to define masculinity and femininity as a result of the internal conflict concerning what should be prioritized.

[@deborahrose4774]

Girls watch the man talk too!♥️🥴

[@wambuimwangi9988]

I watch almost all their episodes 💗

[@kengie121]

Yes we do! 👏

[@Kareh_l]

@@wambuimwangi9988 and rewatch too🤭

[@bimbola_mel9375]

@@wambuimwangi9988 Sameee and I've learnt a lot!😍

[@adilais-haka4357]

When you guys mentioned on how patriarchy really doesn't benefit all the men and while certain groups are being punished for those narratives, it it reminded me of the concept of "Hegemonic Masculinity".

[@jepkoechkendagor9723]

To say Benson is the embodiment of what a man is, shows exactly why there is a mental health crisis for many men. He ensures that his family is provided for, financially, but where is the emotional and mental providence to his wife and children. Benson, like many men, put so much burden on themselves trying to be 'a man' by cutting themselves off from mental and emotional support from their families, which is absolutely integral to their health, which is dangerous and we see the consequences of this playing out in different forms today. That Benson would not tell their family about being put in jail or being in hospital just so that others do not worry about him is unhealthy because while he doesn't want to worry them, he is creating an assumption that he is unshakable or unbreakable while he is suffering on his own. And this keeping to himself, over a long period of time, is inherently toxic and that's why the life expectancy for a lot of African men is reducing because the body gets tired. We also have to look at why Benson feels like he has to make just his family happy and not include himself. Ultimately, will he be happy when his children are all grown up and never visit him? Why? because he has set precedent that what matters in a family to be happy is money hence if children become successful by financial standards, they will only send money back home and never think to visit Benson because they learnt that money is what makes their father happy. In the event that children go to school and don't end up being successful financially, then it leaves them with contempt because what their father taught them to be the ticket to happiness is absent in their lives then what does that mean for them? Isn't this where a lot of men stand today, where despite the degrees and certificates they have, they still cannot get all the money which translates to women's attention (because like Benson's wife and children, they see that money is the thing that brings happiness and becomes an aspiration) and respect in society hence lots of bitterness and the foundation of toxic masculinity? To say that Benson is the model of what a man should be is to say that men do not deserve to be treated like humans but machines and ultimately this is something that men put on themselves. So the real question really is, why are men uncomfortable with weakness when being weak/vulnerable is the characteristic of every life on the planet?

[@adilais-haka4357]

Such an insightful conversation! I love when Eli said " we are on a weird limbo where we are progressing, but the cracks of the society have not progressed" and that is such a good point!

[@Gichuki-Muchiri]

I resonate with the point about walking alone in one's journey of self-development and how you can only be supportive of your friends' journey toward self-elevation. It's difficult to not hold conversations with your friends, especially on campus coz they're your only friends. However, I try to throw in a conversation, short-lived as they may be, I hope I awaken something in them coz I really wish we can grow together, as they say, if you want to go far go with others, I hope they are the 'others'. That would be a beautiful story and full of great memories. Anyway, that was an intriguing conversation and an amazing season.

[@mawiracharlton6798]

And I'm not taking away from the profound nuggets and wisdom that these two incredible men right here have just shared, but I always wonder how come privileged children or people in general tend to grow a very positive mindset towards life that ultimately enables them to get ahead yet they never went through adversity that we might probably attribute for who they're striving to become. Not to say that it's not the same case that applies to those who grew in unprivileged background.. but also let's face it, the latter more often than not cultivate a victim mentality towards life that if we all agree, can be fundamentally detrimental.. but fr man it just has me wondering how for those of us who got to experience for the most part the life that was all relatively rosy and dandy,work even harder to provide for themselves when they get older while also cultivating a totally different mindset towards life LIKE THESE TWO!! or probably it's the way we've been socialized.. someone to please just help me understand. Anyway all that to say this one mind blowing to say the least. Like deadass. Props gents!! Can't be more proud!!

[@luciechihandae9280]

Agreed! Both men and women need to be given opportunities that assist their growth holistically to maintain a healthy balance . 🎉

[@jem5737]

Aki it’s very refreshing and mind opening to hear you guys speak. Everything you guys said I can literally relate to or see it play out irl even as a woman. The fact that you guys have different opinions but still have common ground, with no voices raised or talking on top of each other, is very refreshing. Y’all are a good influence to both young men and women 👌🏿

[@MulaiKibaara]

It's just like what Jordan B Peterston said in an interview where he said that the idea that we're in a male dominated society doesn't make sense when most men are affected by war, mental health, school (whereby they are the ones affected by poor performance and so much more). The truth is, men and women have problems unique to their gender. And there are problems that affect us in general. So, there's no winning unless we're all winning. So, no, men are not expendable.

[@maureennyanjui8475]

One we are innately selfish beings and we are built to look out for our own good rather than the good of others. Two we've been put in a situation where whatever kills us is what benefits us.

[@zawadieve5738]

On a scale of 1- 10, I'd give this conversation a 9. Not just marveling at how deep and timely it is, but also how satisfying it is unpacking Oscar's and Eli's mindsets on the subject matter.Why? because I feel from where women sit( me), they atleast give us an idea of what men think of musculinity, not to mention how comforting it is that men are not blind and quite about the whole issue of musculinity. Wait! Do we get to talk about who Oscar is imitating with "We need to do this"😂😂 Benson's a true example of a man protecting, providing and giving direction.What worries me though is, is society( his close family-partner more importantly) rewarding his efforts?Or is it that men should not receive reward for taking up role? And how does that affect them, especially mentally.Who do they turn to when they cannot hold it up together? And as he takes up his role in society, how does he balance it with the present societal expectation of what else a man should be aside protecting, providing and giving direction? I looooved this conversation!!!

[@vanessajorgembanze8089]

BLOODY WELL DONE!!!!!! Such an amazing conversation. Everything I say in this comment will never be enough to express how engrossed I was during this 1 hour of deep, insightful conversation. Thank you guys; keep up the good work!!

[@samuelndegwa6989]

Hands down my favorite podcast. You guys are just amazing. Keep it up

[@lizkathuri2040]

🤯 This is such a deep and necessary conversation in a time of great societal shift. Mr. Koome, I love how you bring in the research and weave it into the conversation. Great job, gentlemen!

[@dishonolwal3493]

Mind blowing Conversation! I hope you will introduce live recording sessions with an actual audience next season.

[@chania80]

That Benson story was deep!! It seems that as long as he is fulfilling his role, as a man (subjectively), that is his happiness. Yet we on social media will debate and argue re whether he is living correctly or not. I really enjoyed this episode. It was so different from what I expected. We need more of this. Deep and analytical, not shallow. Indeed we are in a bubble online. Vital reminder.

[@lizgathu7098]

Every minute is so eye opening and makes perfect sense.....

[@stephaniesareto]

ManTalk Ke 🤝 Philosophical wisdom! I like how they break down such topics into palatable bits ..I have experienced such tremendous growth since I started listening to them ! Not me filling a whole book with nuggets of info to go educate men in our office about masculinity😂😂 Keep up guys 👏

[@Kezzy_kezz]

14 mins in and all I do is pause to process the facts you two are spitting ...wacha nitafute kalamu sasa.

[@readwithme64]

Very mature, very refreshing. Such sober minds. And I've got to checkout that Finnish development on sanitary towels! This should be a human right: free sanitary towels. I really enjoyed this. Social media and the battle of the sexes that goes on there has been an ugly thing to see. As always, we are better together and we can concur modern day challenges if we are united instead of seeing each other as the enemy.

[@neemalukakha8309]

Ooouuu this conversation is 100% needed 💯💯💯

[@nostalgiaserved4665]

The fact that modern women often say "There are no real men anymore today"..speaks volumes to the gender role gap that exists!

[@Sharon_Njoki.M]

Love that you are both accommodating each other's perspective of the topic. A win win would be the most ideal outcome but hey the world is unfair. We hope for a fair playground at the end of the day. Loved listening to you.

[@elizabethmacharia6811]

I was mad about this conversation until Eli said exactly what I was thinking, we are in a westernized world where all the basic needs are being met, and you no longer have to protect your family from predators and other stuff like that. My question would be is masculinity at a threat or is the idea of masculinity not evolving with time and therefore outdated?

[@Nicole-sm6sc]

20 minutes in and all I hear is facts. That issue of being stuck in an echo chamber is what made me listen to your discussions :)

[@yoda3932]

This one is slappin'!!!!!

[@catadengo]

👏👏👏👏👏👏this!! You are both changing the world 🌎 ❤️ excellent talk

[@lizgathu7098]

Woooooooow, such a rich conversation.... learning a lot.

[@daisylillian594]

Well done Mantalk 👏👏👏👏👏

[@jdoe9987]

Have we really factually reverted to a status of peace? Is that actually true or an agenda being pushed by social media to sort of limit people’s opinions to reality because from second world war, we evolved from countable massive wars fronted in greater proportions and continents in the world to small pockets of war and civil unrest waged across smaller communities and regions in the world🤔. Just a thought.

[@generaliabacha7827]

If you put one man and 10 women on an island,in two years,the population will have doubled. If you put 10 men and one woman on an island,in two years ,how will the population be?

[@MsThe1girl]

Yes but 1 man n 10 women would men The entire population is related. Which means future generations are prone to a lot diseases and large cases of infertility and disability. Your basically punishing future generations.

[@amerudi111]

I enjoyed listening to you guys, always interesting. Keep it up

[@ThaddeusKyalo]

Such a deep conversation.Kudos guys

[@neemalukakha8309]

Yooooohooooo first comment again 🤩🤩🤩🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@courtyard254]

Amazing conversation. Mind changing.

[@SaRah-cu5uj]

interesting conversation- Oscar, invite Benson to the show

[@ShawnMwenje]

Brilliant

[@mellamayzz2860]

😍

[@herb_a_day]

A good man vs being good at being a man/ Gender roles. I disagree. If you're good at being a man, you're generally a good man. The virtues and philosophical underpinnings of what it means to be a man today are traditional roles. All men both traditional and modern have the role of Protection, providing, procreation and proactivity (leadership). No matter how high up or low you are, you still adhere to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. The scales changed. We don't have less wars, we have more locallised wars because the capability of damage is now higher. In Kenya, we fear law enforcement or military, so we maneuver out of harms way intellectually and habitually, but we do not view them as protectors and neither do I feel safe. It's not due to safety that gender roles merge. African societies were generally safe locally, but they still maintained traditional gender roles. In most homes in lower economic cadres e.g living in slums, men enforce traditional female gender roles but expect their wives to merge roles with them. E.g he is a mtumba salesman and she is a mama fua while the kids are in school, if they attend at all. Therefore the gender roles are skewed in favor of the man, but are merged. Not because you're safe, he provides safety first and children second. Healthcare and hygiene is the difference between the old world and today. Precolonial African women had the role of provision as well, but men owned and defended the land. Only safety is predominantly the man's role both then and now. Female killers. Women don't kill because we value life more, due to our role as child bearers and given the past maternal mortality rate and child mortality rate, life is generally more sacred to us. So majority of us didn't bother to hone the skills. But, nordic women and some African women did. The human being is easy to kill, it doesn't require strength, only a little intellect and access to the jugular, femoral vein, blunt force trauma at the back of the head or...good old poison. Majority of us don't kill because we don't want to. Case in point, the amazon women who killed all their men and boys. Women kill when, they have clinical psychopathy or an affront to their identity. Men Kill for those reasons, plus territory or other natural resources. Equality in suffering. You're right, all of us are hurting. We are equal in our suffering today...and I am okay with that, we can find solutions together. An example of what men overlook is the naming system which in most cases is still patriarchal. By your argument, Oscar, there's no reason to name a child by the father's side and especially not when the man's community has not claimed ownership of the wife. In the Western world, the naming was to trace paternity for ownership of property as was the case in Africa. Billionaires Billionaires haven't altered the world on their own. They spearhead and fuel the direction of the most obvious problems in humanity, but they most often create systems that accommodate talent and execution of those ideas. They are funded by the public either through purchase or global shareholding e.g Meta, so it's really a team effort. The sacrificial man I agree with the sacrifices as long as they are shared with the wife. Don't wanna tell your people? Fine. or your children? Fine. But that's a spousal burden, not a personal burden and certainly not a man's role.

[@thebeatmaster3859]

Just a waste of time