239. Michael Saylor's 4 years of bitcoin

[@RachelCarpenter-r3i]

Hit 200k today. Thank you for all the knowledge and nuggets you had thrown my way over the last months. Started with 17k in last month 2024.

[@JerryThomas-q5b]

Which signal do you guys trade

[@RachelCarpenter-r3i]

I am currently guided by Rolando Diaz

[@RachelCarpenter-r3i]

Got $35k profit weekly basis

[@JerryRussell-y9c]

Wait is this the same person? That helps me with 17k investment “wow" souch a small world

[@JerryThomas-q5b]

How can I get in touch with this Rolando Diaz

[@bstomp]

Michael Saylor was brilliant. Great discussion. Love that there was some level of tension and disagreement on minor topics among two very smart people. Love that it did not feel like an echo chamber. Overall excellent interview.

[@jubbafrubby4561]

Saylor is a religious zealot.

[@questioningbitcoin]

I agree that discourse and debate are valuable and even vital, but I don't agree that their disagreements on banking and credit are minor disagreements when you factor in the history of central banking and credit. I also thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. I learn more when listening to different perspectives than not.

[@upup209]

Loved the differences. Saylor made more sense

[@Chiro_ASMR]

Got a little tense

[@JimJamJuicy]

@@Chiro_ASMRSaylor doesn’t like being told he’s wrong, defends himself well though 😂

[@wphillypa]

The issue I see is that while Saifedean explores how Bitcoin could potentially disrupt the global order-such as causing a complete unraveling of the bond market-Saylor, understandably, prefers not to provoke the existing system. He recognizes that regulators still hold significant influence and could intervene if they perceive a serious threat.

[@Appolonius10]

That’s basically why Saylor was pushing back petulantly against Saif’s extreme logic. Not many, if any, people push back against Saylor. He’s not used to it. He’s used to firing people who disagree with him. That is why he keeps interrupting Saif

[@christophercox5633]

Exactly. A conversation with Saylor is like playing three-dimensional chess....absolutely brilliant.

[@alatthepost]

⁠@@Appolonius10I’ve read 3 of Saif’s books and he’s definitely full of himself.

[@jlspilledtruth]

@@Appolonius10 he’s not interrupting him. Saif would say something with voice inflection waiting for Saylor to head nod or smile and agree. But from Saylor’s perspective it’s not in his best interest to just say he agrees if he in fact doesn’t. Saif thought he was going to take Saylor’s models and have him interpret them differently and say something like “ you know Saif I never thought of that.” Saif might be seeing a possible situation that could exist in hundreds of years from now but probably not how it could be in any of our lifetimes

[@Teutonius88]

You have to play a bit of politics, which includes lying and deceiving, if you want to survive. That's sadly just how it is. Look at how many people get murdered because they said too much. That's just politics, it's an ugly game with no winners, but you have to play along a bit if you want to survive and fight against it from the inside.

[@au10666]

Always a pleasure listening to the two GOAT's of the Bitcoin space. Good times.

[@Aleh-h2o]

I can´t get enough of Saylor. He has the power to bring my mind to ZEN state. He should be put among the stoics.

[@7antonio9]

Exactly what you expect from a maxi shill.

[@creaturelost4354]

Well said.

[@sean-kb4wr]

My addiction got to a point where when I see a Michael saylor interview I feel euphoria

[@Annah382]

There are worse addictions to have, my friend.

[@DonnaMagic]

OMG I SO relate... Saylor Addiction 😂

[@funkyseven19]

It's a dopamine hit for sure LOL

[@bardia8225]

Every time I see Michael Saylor, I go and buy more BTC 😂

[@wiseinvestor566]

That’s a money making addiction in the long term 😂

[@questioningbitcoin]

It's about time Saylor faced some challenges on his perspectives, not for any other reason than to use it to have a deeper understanding of different ideas. Well done, Saif 👏

[@therealagent4764]

Unfortunately his ego was in the way of him listening

[@Josh-xe5vi]

​@@therealagent4764which one? Lol

[@BitcoinAndChess]

The funny part is that Saylor was challenged for being too bearish on his outlook on Bitcoin taking over money and bonds. Then there was the whole lending disagreement.

[@therealagent4764]

@@Josh-xe5vi Saylor

[@geoms6263]

on his comunist perspective 🤐

[@WhatWhat-lf3bd]

Love the debate and slight tension in this interview.

[@zootsoot2006]

The elephant in the room is Islam and its rejection of interest. That's what Saylor meant by Ammous being ideological.

[@thenarza7307]

​@@zootsoot2006not really, with Bitcoin the whole model isn't profitable as cost of storing information is essentially free. His point is it doesn't make sense. The fact that it ideologically lines up with Islam is coincidental convenience.

[@Sobanhassan1761]

​@@zootsoot2006You are assuming this elephant just like Saylor was falsely assuming that 'socialist' Saif wants to ban credit ! This argument is based on two different approaches i.e hardworking saver vs risk taking borrower.

[@naborlz]

@@thenarza7307 storage cost is just one small variable, was big with gold, but even today it will eventually be 0 with digital currency, that doesn't change anything in the argument.

[@caseyeverett5246]

I think I learn the most with debates like this. It’s certainly my favorite to watch and really gets my mind thinking through all the mechanics. Love the creative friction

[@treysmith336]

Love the mutual respect and ability to talk through differing pts of view. Wish our political world could do the same. Thank you both for being great examples and educators.

[@mayor-o1w]

Thank you for recommending Sarah Jennine Davis on one of your videos. I reached out to her and investing with her has been amazing.

[@anilhettiarachci8467]

Wow, congratulations on your impressive investment success! Your discipline and focus on delayed gratification is truly inspiring. I'm curious, what are some of the key factors that you consider when making investment decisions? Do you have any tips for those of us who are just starting to dip our toes into the world of investing? Thanks for sharing your story!

[@FreyaFreya3]

Do you mind sharing info on the adviser who assisted you? I'm 39 now and would love to grow my portfolio and plan my retirement

[@mayor-o1w]

@@FreyaFreya3 Sarah Jennine Davis is highly recommended You most likely should get her basic info when you search her on your browser.

[@วิทยาคงกะพันธ์]

​@@mayor-o1wHow do I access her ? I really need this

[@mayor-o1w]

+156

[@demiswilson9449]

This was so not how I thought it was going to go 😂. Appreciate the views of both of these fine gentleman.

[@ggrthemostgodless8713]

That's the point, disagreeing and arguing and LEARNING with smart people, not just "wining" with fools. Stubborn idiots who want to "win" at all costs, even if hey know they are wrong, lawyer-style

[@nathanlawless9125]

Am I the only one who is addicted to Michael Saylor brain?

[@balarab1]

The problem Michael brain is still stuck in fiat mentality, he doesn't understand the effect of hard money on society.

[@pogi8638]

The more he speaks and drops facts about Bitcoin. The more I buy.

[@christophercox5633]

you are not alone...you're in good company and it grows by the day.

[@zukileisure]

Mental health issues?

[@UraniumMillings]

Doubt

[@Rucuz]

Saylor Nailed it, There is a difference between a economic scholar and and economic practicioner.

[@hklilly4854]

💯

[@datgoy5509]

You should wait and see how his prediction plays out before you declare a victor. They are arguing about how debt will look on a bitcoin standard.

[@osirces]

@@datgoy5509 And lets not forget that saying "risk free" is a very big red flag.

[@artpatron719]

Indeed

[@eggrollsparks]

Love this!!! Please remind me in 10 years!​ @@datgoy5509

[@waynerichardson1051]

Thanks Saif, thanks for everything you're doing for us, it's truly appreciated mate!! Michael Saylor and yourself saved my arse regarding my finances!! Thankyou so much!! Cheers

[@YungKingz__]

Same

[@LaineGaming]

Yo, gosh dang this podcast was intense for the majority of the time. Never seen this side of Michael Saylor, even when debating a Gold Maxi. 😅

[@Think-For-Yourself-Man]

Gold?

[@ThiloBauer]

@@Think-For-Yourself-Man Yes, gold. @LaineGaming meant "Even when he is debating Gold-maxis he hasn't been as animated as in this discussion. Got it?

[@Jack369TheKeyToTheUniverse]

Agreed

[@FindingFocus]

For those curious, the art behind Saylor is "The Lute Player (Hermitage version)" by Caravaggio

[@CHAbel89]

Thanks❤️

[@billwhiteman419]

With a sound bar under it? Love this guy

[@upup209]

@@billwhiteman419 picture on his TV?

[@_FMK]

Thanks i was wondering which version

[@LR-xt2zr]

Does he own the original?

[@RogueMoney]

This is priceless. Watching these two powerful minds exchanging ideas and disagreements. Its just wonderful. Thanks 🙏

[@jackdezmen572]

Two powerful minds?

[@RogueMoney]

@@jackdezmen572 A powerful mind can be defined as having the mental strength to deal with challenges and perform well, regardless of the situation. They both performed really well besides having a different opinion one the topic. You could tell they were uncomfortable and yet managed to communicate their differences. Powerful

[@goobtron]

Saylor wasn't understanding the point Saife was trying to make despite Saife saying he WASN'T arguing against credit.

[@omniver]

​@@PablitaPicasita this may be true, but it was Saylor who would not accept Saifs statements in good faith.

[@omniver]

What was Saifs argument? Did you understand it?

[@S.o.M.a.S]

I thought the same think. Saylor was stubborn as f*ck and just neglected his argument completly

[@datgoy5509]

@@omniver I think his argument boils down to the fact that bitcoin and usd are different assets. He says bitcoin will have a much lower interest rate than usd, probably because there is no debasement, so the interest rate does not have to account for debasement like in the current system. Without debasement bitcoin will also accrue value from innovation and improvements in society instead of the government debasing and manipulating to steal that value for themselves, which makes bitcoin denominated debt much more risky than usd denominated debt. Today the currency savers pays for it when you take a loan, you pay a negative real yield and the bank just makes the money out of thin air so they profit from the arbitrage. So when you actually have to pay real money to get a loan Saif is not saying that we have to make it illegal or anything, but people will start naturally prefering to offer equity for the money instead of interest.

[@alaaalasi]

⁠@@datgoy5509nice explanation

[@slackdark]

They both have a point. On a pure btc standard where no other currencies are available debt is challenging since assets are getting cheaper. Taking out a loan in BTC to establish a business might be very tricky. On the other hand, Saylor has a more realistic perspective where he sees both btc and fiat coexisting.

[@MinimalistCapitalist]

That’s all this is. Neither is wrong, they are just looking at it from the framework of different systems.

[@slackdark]

@@MinimalistCapitalist yes but Saylor somehow seems to ignore things like executive order 6102 or extraordinary measures taken during a bank balein/out. For example credit suisse had to erase AT1 bonds valued at 17 Billions francs when it was acquired by UBS in 2023. After the Madoff ponzi fell off earlier investors that cashed out had to pay back other scammed investors. How do we know that in similar scenario, one of the condition that the USA government would impose on JP Morgan(for sake of example) would apply to bitcoin deposits?

[@socalcrypto]

Saylor, a genius who's thought more about this than virtually everyone on Earth, knows disparaging/antagonizing the existing system is counterproductive to his ultimate goal of mass adoption.

[@faitaccompli5878]

​@slackdark I don't think he's overlooking order 6102. What Saylor is envisioning, is a world where the big corporations have Bitcoin as their reserve asset, being that most of the politicians' wealth is tied to the stock market. there'd be a slim chance that they would do something, like order 6102, that would hurt their wealth.

[@kc6519]

@@socalcrypto When the hero only lives long enough to become the villain 🫖

[@cjones11001]

What a spirited and informative interview! There's a reason why Michael Saylor is the most-reasoned proponent of common-sense Austrian economics as well as the bitcoin guru. Thank you so much, Michael, for opening up the world of bitcoin to the masses!

[@luuk6718]

Woohoo! Always amazing to listen to Saylor :)

[@SteveWaters-y5e]

Epic nuanced discussion! The one thing that is agreed upon is that Bitcoin will be the apex asset to hold for protection of wealth debasement. Master class! Thank you both for being so candid and open to sharing your views.

[@DeoVolente444]

Saylor was refusing to see the plausability of saif's position on the demonitisation of bonds and fiat. There could be more drastic economic ramifications to fiat being left behind.

[@joyjayant]

The people who care to hold gold so first Bitcoin must flip gold. It's too hypothetical to talk about bonds when Bitcoin is 10% of gold.

[@TarikSammour]

It will be interesting to see which genius was right...cycle back in 21 years.

[@pagexx]

Michael's in a mood.

[@pazymino722]

“What is the point” and “I don’t know what you’re trying to say” Mike why are you doing Saif like that!?

[@balarab1]

​@pazymino722 I see it the other way, Michael's reputation depends on his predictions, saifedean's does not. Saif was doing a disservice to Michael by doubting his company's analysis.

[@jsnow6925]

I love saylor, my only concern is that he is so much smarter than all of us he going to get sick of us idiots and will only talk with AI robots in the future. They will then both decide we are no longer needed lol

[@reallyshel]

Was he doubting the analysis? ​@@balarab1

[@thenarza7307]

To be fair, Saifedean did not express his viewpoint well. He kept saying it won't exist without explaining why it won't happen, specifically in real terms.

[@exitstrategybtc]

"ive never learned anything from a man that always agreed with me" - love this back and forth.

[@mothtube12]

Intelligent discussion with equally intelligent disagreements. My opinions sharpened from this friction. Please provide more of this.

[@jubbafrubby4561]

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair

[@mfletch2251]

I didn't think I could like Michael Saylor more than I already did...but watching him school you on your irrational expectations did it!. I am more confident being unreasonably long MSTR than I was before watching.

[@phillipechavda3654]

I believe both of them would agree with each other if you gave them enough time and if Michael was willing to hear Saifs argument a bit more (which he didn't explain well or get a chance to finish). If you want to learn more about the Austrian Economic view on interest rates and banking, Saif explains it in depth in his principles of economics book(you can download it free online, it's very good). Either way, I think Michael is right if we are considering how things will work in the next 30-100 years where the world probably won't be operating in a exclusively Bitcoin standard.

[@mfletch2251]

@@phillipechavda3654 I understand what you are saying and in a theoretical sense would agree. However. Saylor is making functional billion dollar decisions within the context of reality. Asking him to reconsider his clarity based on the theoretical got the expected responses. NO ONE wants to hear Michael Saylor second guess himself or his clear vision, certainly not the investors in MSTR. It is what allows him to act - as opposed to simply talk.

[@naborlz]

@@phillipechavda3654 Saif is going against austrian economics in terms of interest rate in my opinion, he even admitted it at some point. Answering that for someone to open a business, u'd depend on asking a friend/parent to lend you money without interest was just insane. Even asking for equity makes no sense, it exists today and it would change completely all kind of economic relations in the field of investing, or also thinking interest rate would go to 0 is like saying people would be indifferent to money in the present against money in the future, which goes against austrian economics.

[@tarik_diamane]

I like that these two share a passion for Bitcoin but approach it in distinct ways: Saifedean is hard-nosed, while Saylor is diplomatic. Both are needed.

[@BitcoinKal]

I wasn’t expecting a heavyweight debate or disagreements on some aspects of economics and bitcoin with these two. I enjoyed it thoroughly but have to admit both of these incredibly intelligent gentlemen had me lost on many occasions. As usual I will have to watch it twice or even several times to get a better understanding. Shout out and respect to both Saifedean and Saylor for this educational and entertaining podcast. 💥💪🏽👊🏽

[@Appolonius10]

The interesting thing here is that Saylor used to be totally against getting yield on his bitcoin. He used to say that it’s not worth the 5% to risk the bitcoin for a crappy fiat yield. Now Saif is presenting an alternative and Saylor is suddenly all for yield. I’ve been listening to Saylor since 2021, he used to say in interviews that he would consider selling some at $200k - he doesn’t say that anymore. Point is saylors view evolved because he has jurisdictional risk in the USA. He’s feeling some sort of heat.

[@christophercox5633]

not sure your assumption he's feeling "heat" is correct. I don't believe he's the kind of guy who gets burned by the fire.

[@upup209]

He addressed the risk. He explained why he wouldn’t. He explained why he would.

[@cloudstrife543]

I think you misunderstood. I think Saylor would say at the time the risk was too high, with wildcat crypto banks as the only option, but if you could get yield with basically state sponsored banks, it's safe enough to do. I've never seen saylor say he'd sell at any price, you should provide a link to that.

[@fib6156]

I agree. I have seen interviews with Saylor a couple of years back in which he indeed claimed to be against getting yield from bitcoin as it was not worth it compared to the risk and the appreciation you will get anyway. Anybody remembers where he did and provide the YT link please?

[@hamishmmc]

Saylor is a pragmatist and he thinking about bitcoins place in the world has changed.

[@johngammon963]

2 legends, we all love you two, God bless you both

[@MikeStillUK]

Was Saylor aware that bitcoin supply is fixed before this interview?

[@DeoVolente444]

Saylor was strawmaning Saif's position on the role of credit in a society in which capital becomes extremely abundant. Was really weird Saylor said Saif wanted to make credit illegal. I think Saylor thinks in the paradigm of bitcoin intergrating in the traditional financial system as it operates currently, but he fails to realise the potential for drastic change if hyperbitcoinisation occurs, It is really hard to grasp the extreme long term implications of bitcoin as we have never had an asset with its unique properties but i think Saif gives the better economic insight.

[@Alina-ws6ob]

I love Michael Saylor. He makes things so easy to understand. I like his use of analogies to make things easier to understand. 🌹

[@tjmooney4181]

Acquire as many satoshis as possible while uneducated people still accept dollars for them

[@taoam7223]

Sure but that doesn't seem to be what he's trying to say at all (talking about Saylor), he's still treating bitcoin as "an asset" rather than money, hard money doesn't need to "perform".

[@SAL-fs1mr]

Saylor's position is correct over the next few decades. Saif's position is correct over the next few centuries, contingent on Bitcoin being the global money.

[@AnonDa]

This is a great take 👌🏻

[@paralyzdtheory]

Thank you Saif & Michael. The journey has been a lot more fun with you guys around

[@kyle9296]

Never seen Saylor push back like this

[@klemenkoncan3895]

Watch the recent two episodes with Saylor, Saif and Patrick Newman

[@arthur78]

Putting words in Saif's mouth (saying he wants to make credit illegal) was weird.

[@bullmeatt]

Saylor got rich borrowing money to buy assets. Saif hates this idea and wants btc to establish a save first buy later system. This is the tension

[@PratsTattoo]

@@bullmeattexactly my thoughts.. a fiat system with unlimmited money favors the risk-taker borrowers, but a fixed money bitcoin system would logically favor the hard-working savers.. it was odd to see michael call safe a socialist-communist saying he wants to illegalize credit when he didnt say nor insinuate such a thing

[@munizguitar]

@@arthur78 Yes, lots of strawmanning on Saylor's part. Triggered.

[@anzori2002]

Saif is a beast, even MS can not follow him, but MS does not have economics education so it is not surprising. Well done dear Sirs! I think we need to continue thie line. MS need to prep better. 😍😍😍. Thank you both 🙏

[@dr.k.math.777]

Two of my favorite Bitcoiners up there. I love it.

[@mattbradley1716]

We need more discussion and disagreement or nothing will get done and we'll all just end up sitting on our sats. Respect to you both. Lets have more fire like this in the space.

[@jackp2884]

Great talk. This is a topic my friend and I had a few months back. We came to the same conclusion as Saif, where interests in a Bitcoin world would be extremely low, but not 0. I think Saylor and Saif weren't discussing the same issues and i was a bit disappointed in Saylor with this one.

[@PenguinWhispererThe]

Nice, finally Saifedean interviews a guest and not vice-versa! Thanks!

[@AnonDa]

They actually agree on 95% of this interview - Saylor just has more confidence in the lender of last resort (US Gov) to bail out regulated institutions in a BTC lending world, than Saif. A great watch!

[@TonyFarese]

Wow, this is an incredible conversation. I was on Michael Saylor side all the way up until about an 1:44 and that's when Ammous got me!

[@Appolonius10]

I’m giving this one to Saif. Saylor can’t accept his thinking. I reckon secretly he agrees but needs to keep the powers that be will ban MSTR. That’s why Saylor went ad hominem on Saif

[@christophercox5633]

disgree with you on that. saylor is a pragmatist and knows EXACTLY how to strategize the game.

[@epicmedia2280]

Total W for Saylor. Saif is learning.

[@EdgarPerez-tb5le]

Incredible discussion. This was constructive friction. I learned... a lot. Discussions like this allow us a glimpse of the future for Bitcoin

[@zaiux]

I was not expecting this many hard-to-watch bits. Great debate

[@socalcrypto]

Saylor's devoted vast time/resources to devising the best way to achieve mass BTC adoption. He knows it's key not antagonize the existing establishment. He always has this in mind when publicly speaking. Even if he believed fiat will go away entirely and be replaced by Bitcoin, he would never say that right now because at this point that could be counterproductive. The most effective/logical approach is not to threaten the establishment but to woo them to our side.

[@socalcrypto]

Unlikely he's ever speaking on what he may really believe, but rather has the extreme discipline to always say what he believes will help bring about the ultimate goal of BTC acceptance and adoption.

[@phillipechavda3654]

I believe both of them would agree with each other if you gave them enough time and if Michael was willing to hear Saifs argument a bit more (which he didn't explain well or get a chance to finish). If you want to learn more about the Austrian Economic view on interest rates and banking, Saif explains it in depth in his principles of economics book(you can download it free online, it's very good). Either way, I think Michael is right if we are considering how things will work in the next 30-100 years where the cost to store Bitcoin will probably continue lower than the interest rate. What Saif was trying to say is that on a Bitcoin standard, the interest rate would probably get very low thanks to the possible decline of peoples time preference and this would change how loans would work quite a bit. I'd love to hear more about this, actually.

[@ToBTCoT]

I agree with your breakdown of the discussion.

[@tmassak6860]

There's levels to this. Some were just early wrote books but have no clue and theoretical with terminology confusion, and then there is Saylor a financial engineer legend that maxis deep inside hate and don't understand

[@datgoy5509]

We just understand that the current debt based system is only possible through involuntary wealth distribution. Saylor pretends to be against communism, but when he found a way to steal from people himself he does not see his own hypocrisy and even defends his right to do so.

[@JasonHolmers]

Safedean was smartest guy in the room until Saylor came around. Saylors messages were much clearer and peaceful and reasonable. Each video with Saylor is an education for the world. Wise man.

[@X11-g9b]

Interests rate are based on Risk. If the lender and borrower can agree on a rate. that actually accelerates economic growth. Michael is absolutely right. The rules of lending and risk in Capitalism are up to the participants...Not the regulators! And of course he recommends it for others, based on their risk tolerance. Saylor's take is so spot on and understandable it's ridiculous Safedean can even think of challenging it. His "Dooms Day" attitude that gets in his way. Borrowing money in a declining asset is obvious as you pay back todays higher value currency in diminished later currency value and pocket the difference in the asset you traded that earlier value into. Real Estate has been just that for 100 years. Probably not as lucrative from here compared to that last 20 years, but still a good bet as demand will stay steady.

[@datgoy5509]

You forget that there is a 3rd party in the current debt system and that is the saver, whom is not part of the transaction but is the one that actually ends up paying for the loan. The reason the borrower can pay a negative real yield, is because the saver recieves a negative real yield. This is theft and involuntary wealth redistribution, which is a big reason for why loans will be much less lucrative on a bitcoin standard.

[@shadesocks3357]

I actually disagree with Michael Saylor for once.. and he is completely close minded here. Saif is not say people shouldn’t have credit. Credit just might not be sustainable in a sound money system.

[@LibertyCity2077]

First of all we don’t have a sound money system, yet. But there will always be credit. Barrowing to build and achieve more in a shorter period of time will always be atractive and could often make sence if it’s spent wisely

[@shadesocks3357]

@@LibertyCity2077 Yeah I agree Credit will exist, but I believe it will be much more perilous than it is today. When you are lending out real money you have to be even more careful who you are lending to.

[@anastasiosleou7139]

Epic talk great to see the tension. Nothing worse than 2 people agreeing on everything… Thanks 🙏🏻

[@WalkerAmerica]

Happy anniversary, Michael!

[@LKNDIY]

Michael is on point here. Two great minds sparring ideas. We need more of this.

[@thenarza7307]

The lender of last resort discussion showed the difference in their opinions on how this develops. Saifedean thinks the illusion of fiat will vaporize at some point. Saylor believes the illusion will continue indefinitely as a useful imagination.

[@YungKingz__]

Agreed! It was a battle of the premise of conversation that why it was intense. Frame Control is everything in a debate and/or any interaction with a human being.

[@bitcoinedo]

Something you guys missed in the discussion is that Bitcoin is going to have more purchasing power decade by decade. This means you don’t need to have a nominal yield on Bitcoin. You can have your purchasing power slightly increase over years without even borrowing it. That is same as having a percentage yield on stable or declining asset. So on this part, I agree more on Saifedean’s position, I just think he didn’t bring up the right arguments defending that thesis.

[@pedrogoncalves3380]

Two bitcoin Gurus... THANKS!

[@SteveWaters-y5e]

Epic nuanced discussion! The one thing that is agreed upon is that Bitcoin will be the apex asset to hold for protection of wealth debasement.

[@jayhebert8775]

People just don't understand Michael... damn he's amazing.

[@jsnow6925]

I love saylor, my only concern is that he is so much smarter than all of us he going to get sick of us idiots and will only talk with AI robots in the future. They will then both decide we are no longer needed lol

[@jayhebert8775]

​@jsnow6925 lol that's pretty much what we witnessed in this interview.

[@epicmedia2280]

People should stop trying to lecture Saylor. He not only knows the End Game but also he is playing it. Top tier thinker

[@hiranm8944]

As always great to see my guru Saylor speak again but very impressed with Saife’s challenges and points of debate. Never seen this before - great to see two guys on the same team have a good debate.

[@jayd6813]

The two geniuses together. If you don't appreciate Saefedean's intelligence, listen to his detailed explanation of the Palestinian history and current tragedy. If you don't appreciate Michael's intelligence, listen to anything.

[@Goodperson32]

Bitcoin bank, saylor’s attachment and strong defense of Bitcoin loans making more sense now.

[@DonBrott-jz8it]

IM GOING to spend half a day studying this .

[@thenarza7307]

1.5x was a mistake for this...

[@fredhaight2127]

Crazy to see these brilliant minds disagree. Saylor won!

[@julietrapp1764]

I think Michael's goal for Bitcoin is to make the world a more beautiful and peaceful place. The goal is not to destroy or attack everything. We don't need push back. We can win this race without turning it into a Hunger Games. Michael is greatness.

[@deweyjames]

That was one of the most enjoyable discussions I’ve ever witnessed!

[@ericcson3429]

If anyone enjoys the push back and disagreement from Saylor here, check out his interview with Ben Cowen from a few years ago. Skip towards the end, and Saylor despises the idea that Bitcoin TA price charts are of any predictive value, seeing them as a complete waste of time and energy,. This puts Ben on the defensive regarding the math, data and his livelihood.

[@lawrencehutson2478]

Thanks to both of you guys - ❤️

[@nibblerock]

Michael Saylor simply didn't listen to Saif in the second half of this interview. Saylor continually put up strawmen to knock down. I'm a massive Saylor fan but this is the first time I have seen him behave specifically in this way.

[@LeviWritesBooks]

Me too. It was weird. I hope he's okay.

[@souravsahu4727]

Saylor or anyone is not bound to buy Saif's personal view on Credit/Interest/yield. This has nothing to do with Bitcoin or Austrian economics.

[@nibblerock]

@@souravsahu4727 It was obvious that Saylor simply didn't listen. He was only on the podcast to promote HIS model. Anything that challenged it simply wasn't properly debated.

[@souravsahu4727]

​@@nibblerock Saifs assumptions were illogical ( like no interest , no lending and only equity will exist, capital will be abundant in future for everyone) . These are just baseless and nothing to do with bitcoin. how can you debate something on based on false assumptions which you do not agree?

[@nibblerock]

@@souravsahu4727 Saif's argument was that under a Bitcoin standard, as people save more, then more capital becomes available for investment. The growing pool of capital leads to increased competition among lenders who will be forced to lower interest rates to attract borrowers. In the LONG TERM this dynamic will lead to a structural decline in interest rates as the supply of capital far outstrips the demand for loans. Your strawman statement is a false characterization of what Saifedean said. This is the same strawman strategy that Saylor continually used during this debate. Sad.

[@CaptureAsia]

I really love this talk in this podcast eposide. I kept listening and learning something new from it. Let's hope the future is great for humanity.

[@redge4553]

I see Michael Saylor, I click

[@diegogiacoppo7090]

Fascinating thesis about a reasonable outcome of how Bitcoin can influence borrow rates and compete with other assets within the current economic framework. I think Saylor is the most rational here, at least for now

[@bitcoine]

both had a point but saylors case had the foresight to compare with relativity to marketcaps.

[@wilsongalucho1142]

This a lot of fun to watch I like when Michael pushes back, and Saif had to hold his ground haha intense at times. But all fun and games. I think Saif is more what ideally could be and Michael is more what's more likely to be. In any case Bitcoin will win in the end!

[@21stCenturyEconomy]

I loved the second half of the tall. There should be A 5 hour talk in-depth about lending and yields with saylor again

[@Hammeredveracity]

You want to torture him lol

[@marktube4377]

Man Saylor is so sharp, it’s hard to outsmart him

[@jsnow6925]

This is what top .1% intelligence vs .0000001% looks like

[@thenarza7307]

Which is which? Lol

[@jsnow6925]

@@thenarza7307 the one with billions who 25x'd his company in 4yrs. Saif is the man though

[@paulkieffer1189]

Facts

[@questioningbitcoin]

Why make this statement without declaring which is which to whom you are referring, ideally coupled with a reason?

[@jsnow6925]

@@questioningbitcoin My goal was specifically to upset you, objective achieved. The billionaire who 25x d his company though is the the smarter one

[@robinsonjcr]

The best Michael Saylor I have ever heard rational and sane. He is encouraging bankers to enter the space. Saif is missing the point.

[@M.Theilig]

The first time watching an interview with Micheal Saylor in which he gets annoying, what is happening? Why is he saying Saifedean is imagening a world without loans or loans are illegal? He doesn't say that.

[@alatthepost]

I see a lot of ignorance in Saif. I’ve read his books and he is definitely narrow minded and lives in a brotopia.

[@andrewphipps2773]

It was strange. Saylor seemed intent on defending banks for some reason and throwing out ad hominem attacks

[@ToBTCoT]

I would have liked to hear Saifedean elaborate more on his ideas. I think they were talking past each other a bit. I think Saylor was looking into the next 10-20 years regarding banks and bitcoin, while Saif was looking at 200-2000 years down the road.

[@andrewphipps2773]

@@ToBTCoT seemed pretty obvious that Saif was just talking about logical conclusions, not timelines for those conclusions to come to fruition.

[@MrAdamKan]

This was Epic! A very thought provoking debate. I have more questions than answers now though! Yet another example of the fact that you never stop learning in Bitcoin.

[@noyb7130]

First time being annoyed listening to Saylor. Have a hard time believing he doesn’t see where Bitcoin adoption leads, but Saif and others should just let him play the role he’s insisting on playing and quit pressing him on the demonetization of fiat. WHEN BTC hits $13M, only an idiot (or someone being forced to) would ever exchange it for fiat (including USD).

[@alatthepost]

Clearly you just don’t understand

[@tvmedo6543]

You don't understand, Sef is the One whith the solution of selling to buy stuff. Saylor not.

[@antman_21]

We owe both these men a great debt of gratitude. Salute

[@CurtStrength]

I hope Saif was not expecting a conversation. Thank you for getting lectured so I could hear Saylor strawman your positions 🙌

[@MikeStillUK]

Saylor is getting schooled in Austrian economics

[@huxley49620]

Totally.

[@souravsahu4727]

It was just Saif's personal ideology. Credit / Interest/ Yield exists in Austrian economics and this has noting to do with Bitcoin.

[@piriqui1]

what a ride this podcast was, incredible the amount of knowledge I got from it, one thing is for sure, BTC is king!

[@tommycala]

Two legends!

[@tommypd]

Top tier conversation 🙏

[@jsnow6925]

I love saylor, my only concern is that he is so much smarter than all of us he going to get sick of us idiots and will only talk with AI robots in the future. They will then both decide we are no longer needed lol

[@christophercox5633]

🤣

[@Joseggonzalezd]

Míchel tiene un coeficiente intelectual fuera de lo común, llega a una claridad en sus argumentos a una velocidad impresionante casi milisegundos jajaja que buena escaramuza las de estos dos titanes ❤

[@MabvutoZulu-o8v]

Seguro

[@tldw8355]

There was a lot of gaslighting from Saylor on the credit part. Was rough to listen to that part.

[@LuckyLuke369-TeamRH]

I believe that credit is a tool that is not mandatory.. Every entrepreneur is so used to it that it looks preposterous to say you don't need it. How you get equity? The old school way.. you work and you save... This time you save an appreciating asset... is this simple. Credit is why empires collapse. My family lived in three different systems and all collapsed when credit became widespread (AustroHungarian empire, Venetian republic, Yugoslavia) The modern concept that "saving is for loosers" comes from FIAT, old people always promoted saving because the were used to save in sound money (aka gold).

[@playlistalaska5611]

Had a very difficult time understanding the interviewer's point. Michael's points were very clear.

[@Logancarnes95]

Mike fired up I love it

[@TGE66]

World getting schooled by Saylor.....love it

[@henriquehall1599]

Great conversation. I agree more to Saifedean that there will be no demand for government bonds, probably ending the dollar in hyperinflation. But I agree more with Saylor that in the Bitcoin Standard in the long future, there will be demand for a debt market denominated in bitcoin. Some people will need credit, and some will prefer to live with yield in their Bitcoin stack.

[@datgoy5509]

The part that saylor gets wrong is that the yield will be close to what it is for USD, USD has very negative real yields even at 5%, so if you get 0.1% yield on bitcoin it is still much better than USD. Even at -2% interest it would probably still be better than the dollar.