Sailboat Electric propulsion with Gas Generator

[@restlessperson5258]

Thank you for taking the time to record, edit and share. BTW, I loved your books.

[@phillycheesetake]

I'm a bit surprised 3kn requires 900w. From the testing some have done with displacement boats (admittedly fin keels and inboard electric motors), 3kn in calm is achievable with more like 300-400w draw. Must be the wetted surface, because I can't imagine a direct drive motor should have any particular disadvantage over an inboard. But regardless, 15 miles range per gallon of gas?!?!? Just goes to show what's possible with a serial hybrid drive. The list of reasons to prefer diesel inboards shrinks further still.

[@Ramenscooter]

Long live Yanmar!

[@PS-ef4yg]

My 1981 Yanmar thumper (YSM12), mistreated by countless previous owners, supposedly reconditioned once in the past, still starts every time I push the ignition button, burns no oil, leaks no oil. Take care of your diesel and it'll last forever...

[@unhippy1]

Lol i recently made all the mounting brackets for a replacement generator install on a setup like these for a customer......38ft steel yacht with electric auxiliary drive with a 5.5kva silent generator in a designated forward locker and 48v 60kw battery bank.....dunno what the motor size was but would do 5.9 knots

[@flyingfox10001]

Get yourself a diesel inboard! Apart from that a Honda i10 plenty of power to run continuously with an extended tank, which is easily topped up without stopping the generator, change the oil every 100 hours and be sure to oil the air filter at the same time. My last i10 Honda done in excess of 8000 hours at $1200 Australian, bloody good buying, lots of petrol though makes it expensive practice! P.S doesn’t matter how calm it is you need to secure the thing just in case, sitting it on there like that is bad practice to say the least!.

[@sensor6101]

Nicely executed. I especially like the set up on the 27 footer. It is similar to the system I have been using on my Ericson 27. Truth be told I’ve only used it twice in 17 years. Great projects please keep up the wonderful work!

[@robertscholz4486]

i'm a huge fan of the work that you do, but I guess I'm a little confused with the point of this video. Wouldn't it just make more sense to use a gas motor before going through this. After all, if you were to back off on the throttle of the gasoline motor to maintain about 3 knots, wouldn't your fuel consumption drop to about the same as the generator usage? I think that would have been the next most logical test / comparison. Either way both methods inevitably tie ones fate to the same fossil fuel -- it might be nice to get a realistic comparison of the two methods (also comparing the overall performance of each type of outboard as well). For that matter, what about a comparison to an inboard diesel for range and power also in the mix. Just my two cents!! Keep up the great work!

[@atomvoyager]

Thanks for the comment. I did a comparison video of the electric vs gas outboards linked below. We are not convinced that the electric system will work out long term due to range limitations and susceptibility to electronics failures, so it is an experiment to see if a low maintenance, silent running, mainly solar and regeneration powered system is doable. We added the generator option after experiencing range anxiety in certain situations with the idea it would be rarely needed. Swapping out the motors is unfortunately a two man job that takes two hours at anchor to complete so not something you want to do frequently. The idea was to use the electric motor for the type of offshore sailing the owner plans to do - Atlantic circle cruise and other offshore passages. The gas motor is there in case he decided to run long distances on the ICW or as a replacement for the electric motor if it fails. kzbin.info/www/bejne/hYe7eIZ6qb55ntk

[@robertscholz4486]

@@atomvoyager Thank you for the response to my comment. I don't want to appear to be sour on the electric motors, it just seems that they often appear to be more trouble than they are worth once you factor in the problems that you mentioned. i live in a private lake community with 5 lakes -- all of which are electric only. I feel your pain on the range anxiety -- nothing worse than finding yourself in the middle of a body of water with no means of propulsion!. I will look at the video that you referenced ... as i start looking towards the "retirement boat", i often find myself wondering whether the electric propulsion will be a viable option in a cruising boat without compromising every choice to run an electric appliance throughout the day to save the battery banks.

[@fargarden]

Liking the modular flexibility of this arrangement very much

[@mikefriend7570]

What’s the point of this? If you’re having to use a gasoline powered generator to charge your engine battery, you might just as well have a diesel engine drive your boat in the first place

[@atomvoyager]

At first glance you are correct. The point is that the owner intends to work hard at the sport of sailing the boat rather than habitually motor sail as most owners do. The generator is there mainly as emergency charging and range extender and not expected to be needed on regular basis. Time will tell whether this works out as planned.

[@adamtedder1012]

What's the point on most ships that use diesel electric, or tugboats that use diesel electric. The motors are all electric on those but they are driven by generator. How about maintenance cost is way less on the motors themselves. I use propane gens hooked to powermax converters to run my motors and charge the batteries at the same time. It's useful when fighting currents or needing to move before solar has charged.

[@adamtedder1012]

Bow fishermen have been doing this for a long time. Its where i got my idea. A generator hooked to powermax converters power the electric motor direct or can have batteries in between and will charge your batteries while your moving. The powermax controllers will stop chatging the batteries when they are full.

[@markhunter7444]

I have been waiting for this video even though I didn't know that you were working on it. I'd been thinking that a future tilting, sealed outboard well might be extra modified to fit one of these suitcase generators. The lines of the boat would have to be altered likely to create a raised lazarrette. -Mark in Maine

[@SirCharles12357]

Nice test! Thanks for uploading!

[@veleiroema]

no has translater ? Why , this is automatic no youtube !

[@FarReachVoyages]

As always, well executed and explained James. It's a clever workable system but seems like a lot of liability and extra equipment to avoid the noise of a gas outboard--and you end up with the noise of a generator anyway to gain the range but with less speed than you would have with the gas outboard. It will be interesting to hear the owner's perspective about it after a few years of extended cruising.

[@atomvoyager]

That's true. The hope is that the generator will be rarely needed but is there for emergency. Aside from gas outboard noise, he hopes to use less fuel and no motor maintenance and learn first hand the real world pros and cons of each system for his situation. Time will tell but so far is working out OK.

[@ardentenquirer8573]

Very interesting, thanks for the information

[@Cruiser2B]

I have an Alberg 30, displacement closer to that of CD27. I HATE the noise of outboard in the well. Given that I mostly motor in and out of marina, do you feel I should purchase Navy 6.0 or 3.0? Currently use Tohatsu 6hp sailpro....I have to admit my A30 feels underpowered with the Tohatsu. I'm leaning toward 6.0, just much bigger and heavier than 3.0. I do not kick outboard up, just remove it...much smaller hole in the boat

[@atomvoyager]

I would carefully weigh the pros and cons before switching your gas outboard for electric. If you truly only motor in and out the marina or other short periods that the electric motors limited range can handle then the gas motor noise for short duration should not bother you that much either. I'm learning from experience that the gas motor is much simpler, cheaper, more reliable and functional. One of the Epropulsion lithium batteries we bought had some fault soon after it arrived and we struggled to get them to replace it under warranty. If you use a different LiFePo4 battery then the regen feature won't work. Also, we had two bad remote displays that had to be swapped out in the first few months. Other owners on the Epropulsion facebook group frequently report similar quality and design problems. But if you dislike the gas motor that much and want to risk it, or like we did, want to experiment and learn first hand if electric is suitable to your needs, then the Navy 6 seems a better choice for an Alberg 30 than the 3. You'll find with the bigger motor you don't have to run it at full throttle which can cause overheating and shorten the life. A downside is that you'll need to rig up your own lifting tackle since the motor is so bottom heavy that it's nearly impossible to tilt it up without it. Not tilting up either motor somewhat defeats the purpose of the well. With three electric connections and the two bolts in the mount to remove, it's also time consuming and heavy and awkward to handle. Why do you remove the gas motor or leave it down rather than tilting it under sail or for storage, when it's such a simple way to handle it?

[@maxstrahan]

Really interesting and inspiring setup.

[@Woobieeee]

Thank you for another video.

[@davidbrayshaw3529]

Given that the boat is fitted with a shore power circuit and AC-48V DC charger, I can see this as being a "simple" setup in the context of operation, but from the point of view of efficiency it looks like a bit of a dog's breakfast. Those 2200i's are AC-DC-AC in operation. You're then stepping down the AC at the charger to 48V and rectifying the current again to DC to charge the battery. Then there are the losses in either inverting that current to AC at the motor or the inherent inefficiencies that come with DC motors. That's a pretty lossy circuit. And at roughly 800cc. of petrol per hour to produce just 900 watts at the prop, in the context of fuel efficiency, that's pretty bad. I get that in this application the motor is only being used for getting in and out of the harbour, so it's no big deal, and generators come in handy for lots of other things, but I would expect a conventional diesel driving the prop via a gearbox to easily achieve 6kwh of power at the prop for the same fuel burn or even less. Interesting project, just the same. Hopefully a bit more battery and a bit more solar and perhaps wind generation is on its way.

[@atomvoyager]

Yes, lots of trade-offs with this system. It's not so efficient or powerful compared to a diesel generator but on this boat we don't have space or budget or need for the complexity of that. Yes, another battery and more solar would be helpful if willing to allocate the space needed for those. We didn't want a wind generator since its shadow would cut the solar output and he plans to sail in areas that have more sun than strong winds as concerns of windage and noise.

[@michaelsimpson9779]

I appreciate the exercise and effort in documentation, it's interesting. Huge amounts of electrical complexity though, in a moisture laden environment. And mains voltage at that. A well maintained single cylinder marine diesel walks all over this stuff for efficiency and reliability... You could actually even use a modern petrol stationary engine if you were really careful and strapped for cash. Or, just buy a Tohatsu Sailpro they're amazing... Solar is not great in anything but ideal conditions. The amount of real estate required for the panels is not achievable. Except perhaps on a big cat. Realistically, electricity for motive power in these sorts of settings is an exercise in futility. The amount of storage required, the energy density... why? Sorry if this comes off as a hugely negative blast, it's not meant to be.

[@atomvoyager]

I understand your points. Most sailors they are better off staying with a diesel engine. The idea with this boat is to experiment with other options since there are many pros and cons involved depending on type of use, enthusiasm to sail rather than motor, etc. It may turn out that these electronics are not well suited long term to the environment and if that's the case we will consider it a learning experience and swap out the motor for the 9.8hp Tohatsu gas outboard. So far, it is working well for the owner who just made a 350 mile offshore trip up the east coast and only used the electric motor for 2 hours when departing and entering port. The battery did not go below 90% SOC and recovered in one day with solar. The generator was not needed this time. Having continued success like this requires careful passage planning and longer waits for ideal weather windows and not trying to navigate long distance under power. Most sailors these days don't want to deal with all that and because their sailing skills are limited and anxiety is high, they are better off with diesel.

[@superwag634]

I think I’d just buy a normal outboard to save all this complexity 🤷‍♂️

[@atomvoyager]

That is the simplest choice and may turn out the best choice. Since he has both gas and electric outboards, if it doesn't work out we will all learn something and go back to gas.

[@Mechone11]

In rough conditions i see this system well... useless and noisy , gas is also a bomb compared to diesel.

[@atomvoyager]

That is true but generator can be run in cockpit footwell somewhat protected from rough water. You can't run the outboard motor in rough water but can charge a depleted battery at least so that the battery is ready to use when conditions moderate in a calm which is the main purpose for the motor, not motoring in rough water. The gas is stored in the outboard well which is well vented overboard and not connected to bilge or other lockers so that reduces the danger.

[@hearsejr]

Hey James, you probably don't remember me. It's been like 15 year since I had my old boat called pretty lucky that I sold and man I could tell you stories about the guy I sold it too... well that and the atomic 4 that I hated with a passion. I have recently been gifted a boat from Joe Dougan (spl???) And he had a 28' O'Day in Brunswick for a while, but sold it. I was wondering if have ever seen anyone cruising or modified a Chrysler C20 ND took it from Florida to Bahamas? I want to modify mine and try it on day but as I'm new to the chrysler C20, I don't even know where the weak points are. Joe was dismasted and re finished a mast and rigging and rebuilt the chain plates. Any thoughts on if it's even possible to make it stronger? Thanks, Bill

[@atomvoyager]

I'm not familiar with the C20 but most boats can benefit from some strengthening and safety and functioning modifications. I would join a popular online trailer sailer group and ask them for specific known weak points.

[@hearsejr]

@atomvoyager thanks I will try that. My main goal is to sail from Tampa around the keys and hopefully cross over to the Bahamas... I also want to sail from Southern Florida up to Reedsville VA. And stop in Brunswick to vist my childhood hunting grounds at Blythe Island. I was raised right there at the Boy scout camp grand in the 1975. Not necessarily in that order.. lol.

[@danknox9986]

Big fan of regen!

[@edwardfinn4141]

The thing about a Honda generator is it is incredibly reliable. I took mine across the Atlantic twice. I would say I used it more then 100 times both at sea and at anchor. I ve had it about 10 years. I would say that of all the things I have owned that have a pull cord- - the Honda generator is the most reliable thing I have ever owned. I’ve never had a problem with the CO sensor, but ai did have that neutral ground issue. For storage, I always drain all the gas out of it. Great looking CD 36 there, and Atom Voyager, thanks for all you do! Lastly I suggest you might buy a ‘rattle siphon ‘ to make transfer of gasoline easier.

[@atomvoyager]

Thanks for your comment.

[@PS-ef4yg]

I've heard of folks disabling the low oil sensor so they can run the generator while under sail (heeling supposedly triggers the low oil sensor). Any experience with this? Thanks...

[@atomvoyager]

@@PS-ef4yg I hadn't heard of that problem. I guess that if the low oil sensor doesn't actually stop the motor then you could just disable the light or buzzer. But if it is like the CO minder engine cutout then you need to find the correct location to disable because just removing the light or buzzer won't stop the shut-down feature. Or just place the generator in the lee side of the cockpit footwell with a lifejacket or something placed under one side to level it during the rare time when you must run it with prolonged significant heel.