Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson on the Bible

In a recent viral video released on Christmas Day 2023, Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris discussed a wide variety of topics. In contrast to some earlier combative conversations, this discussion explored their differences in a more collaborative way. This video looks at some of the differences between Peterson and Harris is a fundamental disagreement about the Bible. In particular, it calls into question Sam Harris's critique of the Bible's lack of scientific rigor.

[@jltrem]

It's the old "They're all wrong...except the Catholics." With a little subliminal guilt thrown in for tradition's sake.

[@tombeatty4792]

So the Bible reads like a horror story because it would be too overwhelming for God to communicate his true word. Instead, it must be dumbed down and clumsily interpreted by lowly man. How convenient.

[@christopherkaczor8288]

The Bible reads like a horror story because the reality of human life is (often) a horror story. But there is more to the Bible than just that.

[@tombeatty4792]

@@christopherkaczor8288 true enough. However, some of the horror comes from God himself, such as the allowance for a man to beat his wife to death and leave her on the steps of her father’s house if the man finds that she is not a virgin. This is just gratuitous, self-inflicted pain.

[@christopherkaczor8288]

@@tombeatty4792Are there any other ways of reading such passages? Such as not permission?

[@manueldumont3709]

​@@christopherkaczor8288I cALl(Buy)

[@jerrylanglois7892]

Why doesn't '' god '' just APPEAR and say who has '' the word '' ?

[@christopherkaczor8288]

Jesus did appear. He is the Word.

[@jerrylanglois7892]

@@christopherkaczor8288 When and where did jesus appear ?...and prove he is '' the word ''.

[@billkotas9049]

The question pressed by Jerry is why not NOW, not 2000 year ago history@@christopherkaczor8288

[@judylloyd7901]

​​@@jerrylanglois7892 You "prove" that Jesus isn't the Word 😊😊 As far as when and where He appeared, that is an historical fact, which historians don't deny.

[@jerrylanglois7892]

@@judylloyd7901 Like all true believers you lack education and most of all, critical thinking skills. First, the person making the claim has the burden of proof. In other words, it's up to you provide the the proof, not me to disprove the claim. If I tell you leprechauns exist it's up to me to prove they do, not for you to prove they don't. There is nothing '' historical '' about jesus as '' savior, son of god ''. He, a literate teacher, a rabbi, left not one written word, everything '' jesus said '' was said by people who never knew him. He has not one eyewitness, there's not one contemporary account of him in the bible or anywhere else. Everything said about him is nothing more than hearsay. Does that sound '' historical '' ? I could go on and on but that's enough for now.

[@chriswilliams5982]

I don’t think Peterson understands the actual historical context of the Bible. For instance it appears he accepts the gospels as historical when in fact they aren’t at all. There is zero eyewitness accounts of Jesus anywhere in the historical record. We know the books were written decades after the death of Jesus. We know that his followers were basically fishermen who most likely had little or no education. Certainly not the ability to speak and write Greek which exactly what they are written in. None are written in the first person, but in the third person. Once you understand they were copied from earlier texts, some of the sources they shared, you are faced with mistranslation, changes in content by people adding or subtracting content to better reflect their views, etc. The fact is they disagree and contradict each other, and the reliability of those texts are very suspect. In the case of John which was written about the year 95-105 and is so radically different than the other three gospels makes in entirety possible that the entire book is distortion and non historical.

[@Ashoerchen]

This reasoning suffers from the fundamental epistemological weakness that all religions share. For sure, if you approach Christianity with a philanthropic mindset, it becomes evident that it espouses gentleness and love for one's neighbor, even to the extent of self-denial. I won't delve here into whether this perception aligns with how the Catholic and Protestant churches have in fact appeared to their subjects (I chose this term carefully). Instead, I would rather emphasize that merely pointing out differences between unproven statements, including holy texts, falls completely short of proving the factuality of those statements. The only method to substantiate a statement, whether significant or trivial, is by providing evidence from external sources and subjecting it to peer scrutiny to ascertain its validity. The arguments presented in this video contribute nothing to this endeavor. They are entirely self-referential and can be applied to any religion or otherwise unproven assertions. Such arguments are susceptible to exploitation by charlatans for their personal and regularly vastly inhumane and immoral purposes, as we sadly can observe both within the U.S. society and within the Muslim world, particularly in the Arab world.

[@maxxam3590]

The problem is not just thet the Bible doesn't contain scientific information that we discovered centuries later, but the Bible contains _mistakes_ in terms of science. Not just that, but the Bible contradicts facts historial and moral, not just scientific, and even contradicts itself.

[@christopherkaczor8288]

I'm not sure if this will be helpful to you. Have you considered the possibility that the Bible isn't trying to do science? This video explains what I mean: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mYjdmKKlhq2rd68&ab_channel=ChristopherKaczor

[@maxxam3590]

@@christopherkaczor8288 If I claim that water contains no oxygen, then I'm scientifically wrong. If I claim that water contains no oxygen, and then excuse myself by saying "I wasn't trying to do science", that doesn't save me from having being scientifically wrong. Same with the Bible. It makes claims that are scientifically wrong, and the excuse that "it's not a science text book" won't save it from being scientifically wrong.

[@christopherkaczor8288]

@@maxxam3590I think I see what you are saying. In Sonnet 18, Shakespeare says, "rough winds to shake the darling buds of May." If it turns out that scientifically, last May had no rough winds at all. I don't call Shakespeare a bad meteorologist. Have you considered whether it is possible that just as Shakespeare isn't trying and failing to tell to give us a weather report, so too the Bible is not trying and failing to give us scientific facts?

[@maxxam3590]

@@christopherkaczor8288 Admirable as Shakespeare was, would you ever consider that he was a prophet of GOD? Or that his work is the inspired word of GOD?

[@18dot7]

@@maxxam3590" a prophet of GOD" How do you tell a true prophet from a false one? Got some experiment for that? Would you ever consider that there has never been a true prophet?

[@SleepyPenguin-8og]

God presumably was like eh what the hell, let them figure out those modern advancements later on on their own.

[@thetruthaboutscienceandgod6921]

Hey, Sleepy: You are correct, to a degree. In Genesis 1:28 God tells man to "subdue" the Earth. Over the centuries, humankind has been doing that. We've gone from inventing the wheel to developing spacecraft, life-saving medicines, etc., etc. Take care.

[@SleepyPenguin-8og]

@@thetruthaboutscienceandgod6921 also life taking medicines, abortions clinics, psychiatric wards

[@albertmiller3082]

Where is the channel creator’s integrity? 🤔 This whole thing is sketchy. Where are either Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson’s voices in this? The thumbnail & title is misleading. This video is the channel creator’s commentary on what they grasp as Sam’s position. Why create a false impression with pictures of two guys who don’t appear or speak or get directly quoted in the video? Disingenuous in the final analysis. You push out Jordan Peterson’s image but use instead your own pro-Christian biased readings and interpretations of both Harris and the Bible.

[@christopherkaczor8288]

I am quoting the actual words of Harris and Peterson. You can verify that I am quoting accurate by looking at the original video that they made. I wish I knew how to slice in their actual voices, but I don't (yet) know enough about video editing. I'm hoping to learn soon how to do this.

[@albertmiller3082]

@@christopherkaczor8288 Thanks for sharing your thinking around this composition. Some subtitle-type onscreen tag to associate one thinker from the other. I respect and appreciate your candor and the subject matter certainly provocative. Take good care of yourself, stay healthy. ✌️

[@jayantito8520]

let Peterson read bhagavat geetha...not one time ...several times..each time he will come across different meanings of what is god......

[@genebrittain2568]

lol, yeah, that's it! Had to dummy it down!

[@christopherkaczor8288]

Everything is received in the manner of the receiver.

[@markusher5748]

Christianity hinges on the resurrection

[@carolfleetwood2419]

In rebuttal to Harris' claim that "God didn't offer modern scientific postulates in the Bible which were unintelligible to Bible writers but would be understood in the future" was met with, "God doesn't explain science. The narrator, Jordan Peterson? illustrates this by saying, "God doesn't speak through the forces of nature like earth quakes or volcanoes but in whispers in ones inner unspoken voice." For once, I, as an atheist agree with the narrator. That small voice is our conscience. That is what God is. GOD IS OUR CONSCIENCE. When Abraham was told not to kill his son, it was the inner voice of his conscience telling him not to do it. When Moses heard God in a burning bush, (did it spread from a camp fire that was smoldering? Or was a reflection in a vivd sunset?) He had been grappling with what to do next with the pre-Canaanite Jews that migrated from Egypt. That burning bush triggered his conscience to realize the next step before arriving in Cannaan was to create a moral code of conduct for them. After living among the more civilized Egyptians who had lots of religious codes, he needed one tailored to the needs & identity of his own people. Thus the infamous 10 commandements. Whether he walked down from Mt Sinai with them etched in stone tablets is stretching one's imagination. But he certainly may have walked down with the 10 conceptualized in his head.

[@christopherkaczor8288]

I almost agree. I'd say conscience is the vicar of God, but not God. For, I believe at least, that God is infallaible, but conscience can err.

[@carolfleetwood2419]

@@christopherkaczor8288 God doesn't err ? There are XY & XX genes, but also XXY, XYY& XXYY. There are babies born without any sex differentiation. Clearly, not only is genetics blurred but an array of natural adoptions. You can believe that nature is objective & is not preconceived by the mind of some god, or the opposite, it is subjective & full of god-implications as to why life was created this way (intelligent design). It's very scary to think of life objectively because all of a sudden, one's purpose, reason for existing is taken away. One is downgraded to just another member of the pack. But because humans have conscienceness we create our own self worth, our own purpose & meaning in life. We react to those awe moments of sheer unexplainable blissful joy called secular spirituality. We connect to each other in meaningful ways. That's the gift of life we were given. My leap of faith is in the sobriety that I steer my own ship, I create my own dance, I sing my own song. My absolute Platonian good that I experience in my mortal secular soul lifts me to heights that your God lifts you. I don't need religion to feel all the compassion, joy, gratitude, & love of life. I also don't feel the burden of original sin, that needs continual washing away by routine prostration to an invisible authoritian being. I don't feel other people with different faiths are inferior or I am superior. I don't view women as 2nd class & I certainly don't feel the need to push my beliefs on anyone or believe didactic religious dogmatism needs to be the law of the land.

[@christopherkaczor8288]

@@carolfleetwood2419Is this self contradictory? "I certainly don't feel the need to push my beliefs on anyone." You just wrote a long post proposing your beliefs.

[@carolfleetwood2419]

@@christopherkaczor8288 "God is infallible but conscience errs" certainly looks like a belief to me. You want a belief? "We are the God that we worship. They are us." It is a recurring belief among Christians that God is perfect in every way. The epitome of perfection. Why is that? Now the Roman gods had faults, they were human-like, like us. But the Christian god is absolute perfection. It's always males that emphasize this in uncomfortable repetitions. Psychologically, these men have identity insecurity issues & the idea of perfection is an alter ego. God is a Christian's alter ego.

[@rizwanrafeek3811]

According to Quran on the day of Judgment, mountains will move like clouds in the sky; as per this simulation done by an astrophysicist in the below video it actually shows mountains break apart and fly away like clouds in the event of black-hole entering into our solar system. kzbin.info/www/bejne/d5TIdp2qjc6ah7M In the above video at 5-27, it show mountains are flying away, holy Quran says, on the Day of Judgement, you will see mountains will move like clouds. Quran 27-87 And the Day that the Trumpet will be sounded - then will be smitten with terror those who are in the heavens, and those who are on earth, except such as Allah will please (to exempt): and all shall come to His (Presence) as beings conscious of their lowliness. Quran 27-88 *Thou seest the mountains and thinkest them firmly fixed* : *but they shall pass away as the clouds pass away* : (such is) the artistry of Allah, who disposes of all things in perfect order: for he is well acquainted with all that ye do.

[@rizwanrafeek3811]

Reference to BIG-CRUNCH in the Quran. Quran 21:104 The Day when We will fold the heaven like the folding of a [written] sheet for the records. As We began the first creation, We will repeat it. [That is] a promise binding upon Us. Indeed, We will do it. Pickthal Translation of the Quran, it is maybe a reference to Wormhole. Quran 70:1 A questioner questioned concerning the doom about to fall Quran 70:2 Upon the disbelievers, which none can repel, Quran 70:3 From Allah, Lord of the Ascending Stairways Quran 70:4 (Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.

[@Angela-bk7yp]

Read the book of Job.

[@81Wordsworth]

"Including [advanced scientific information] could only baffle and be unintelligible to the original readers of Scripture." 1. Not necessarily. God could have said something like, "The Earth goes around the Sun. It's not the other way around." This may have seemed crazy to ancient readers, but it would hardly be baffling or unintelligible. 2. Even if it was baffling, if God was speaking to these readers, he could have said, "Put it in anyway. Future readers will understand it and see it as proof of my existence."

[@christopherkaczor8288]

1 you are right. 2 Almost no ancient people needed proof of the existence of the divine. The real question was about how many gods there were and how to please them.

[@81Wordsworth]

@@christopherkaczor8288 That's a good point. It's an easy mistake to slip into--assuming that our 21st century way of reading Scripture has always been how people approached it.

[@hazok4351]

God supposedly CREATED moral and embedded it into people's hearts. Also, knowledge (gnosis) is supposed to be a fruit of the spirit, and you're saying that god, the all powerful creator or humanity, the one without whose permission nothing happens is incapable of educating the people he is revealing himself to in such things? He'd have them include "sacrifice a turtle for this or that" or "don't weave two types of fabric together" but leave out something like don't rape in war or don't take slaves... Yeah, sure. Divine, all loving and all knowing for sure.

[@hazok4351]

​@@christopherkaczor8288 and you missed the commenters point completely, it's so basic that it almost sounds like you are diverting on purpose. He didn't mean that ancient people needed proof of god, but that the people later would. Are you that bad at interpretation of texts or are you pretending?

[@jessiebrady2080]

@@hazok4351 I tend to jump between topics; so, I will number my points. 1. God does not create morality; morality is an intrinsic part of God's nature. God doesn't arbitrarily decide what is good; God is good. If God were to sin, He would not be God. God is the literal definition of righteousness by which all other things are measured, the maximally great being. 2. Your argument is strange. Essentially: "Because God didn't put proper scientific references in the Bible, He must not exist." It's quite arbitrary. 3. The Bible is God's love letter to mankind, not a science textbook. Although, when the Bible makes a scientific reference, it is accurate (the universe had a beginning, the earth is round, the life of the flesh is in the blood, etc.). 4. The Bible condemns all fornication, adultery, and theft. This covers rape and forcefully taking slaves. 5. Why are you so emotionally invested in a book and religion you seem to not know much about?

[@jessiebrady2080]

There seems to be a misunderstanding that the fundamentalist view of plenary verbal inspiration is somehow mutually exclusive with the human author's writing styles. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..."(2 Timothy 3:16a). In the original Greek, the word there for "inspiration" is "θεόπνευστος" which literally means "God-breathed." This is the fundamentalist view.

[@user-fk6lf6yy4s]

Watch Sam go easy on the Jewish God and much harder on the Christian God. Same God by the way.

[@James-ll3jb]

Harris is a Jew from the 'crucify him!' contingent😅

[@chrisbaldwin3148]

Actually they're not really the same God. The Old Testament God is radically different from.the New Testament God. Just because they ham-handedly tacked Christianity onto the Jewish God doesn't make them the same God. The OT God doesn't speak of heaven and hell, and is all about wrath and vengeance (eye for an eye, tooth...)The Christian God is about forgiveness (turn the other cheek, Prodigal son, etc.) The OT God meets out rewards and punishments whilst you are still alive, the NT God reserves those things until after death. Clearly, Christianity usurped the Jewish tradition to gain legitimacy and traction in its fledgling stages.

[@firedome8]

Nope...Sam is correct,remember how gos supposedly met Ezakel or moses on the mountain...not a wisper in any way god is made im mans image .

[@bevinfernandes3875]

The day man says that THEY HAVE UNDERSTOOD GOD, HE CEASES TO BE GOD??? STOP THIS YOUR NEVER ENDING THOUGHLESSNESS.

[@colinburgess7728]

Look up “the firmament” This how the word of god describes the beginning of the universe If the Bible is god’s word and unquestionably right, this is easily proven false, and the whole edifice just crumbles away

[@christopherkaczor8288]

I don't understand your argument. I am claiming that the Genesis story is NOT trying and failing to do science.

[@colinburgess7728]

@@christopherkaczor8288 so what is the point of genesis except as an amusing myth?

[@christopherkaczor8288]

@@colinburgess7728 In answer to your question, I explain that in this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/mYjdmKKlhq2rd68&ab_channel=ChristopherKaczor

[@voicemaestro]

It's really convenient that gods are always invisible and inaccessible to the uninitiated. Thus, whatever is written or claimed about them cannot be corroborated with said gods. So it really doesn't matter what the Torah or the Bible or the Koran says. It's all just made up. But it's fun to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. An utterly futile waste of time, but fun.

[@christopherkaczor8288]

We all believe in things that are invisible and inaccessible to the uninitiated for example atoms.

[@voicemaestro]

@@christopherkaczor8288 There's an immense chasm between "very tiny things" and "things that are not there." Atoms are very tiny things, but they are real. Took a long time for folks to accept that very-tiny-things-not-visible-without-a-microscope-called-germs-and-viruses were actually responsible for disease rather than demons or "bad humors," but, hey, that's a well-accepted theory now. If there are gods, where are they? They have never once appeared except in dreams and imaginations and myths and legends. Belief is not a reliable pathway to truth; otherwise, Muslims would be ahead of everyone else in the truth department, because they devoutly believe. Try again.

[@voicemaestro]

@@christopherkaczor8288: There's a great chasm between "very tiny things" (you mention atoms) and "things that are not there." Atoms are real. Germs are real. Viruses are real. Gods? Those we haven't seen except in dreams, imaginations, myths, and legends. Also, belief is not a reliable pathway to truth. If it were, radical Muslims would be the arbiters of truth because of their unsurpassed devout belief, yes? ETA: I see you deleted your comment saying we believe in lots of things that are "invisible and inaccessible to the uninitiated" like atoms. This is my response to that comment.

[@billkotas9049]

No we don't all "believe"...for some of us "belief" is a concept that has some merits but is not useful in a more fundamental understanding....@@christopherkaczor8288

[@judylloyd7901]

Voicemaestro, you also believe in many things which are invisible, although that doesn't mean there is no evidence at all for their existence. Similarly, we who believe in God, exercise faith, but NOT WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Just because you have not seen or examined the evidence yourself doesn't mean that there isn't any😁😁

[@thetruthaboutscienceandgod6921]

Please watch and share with others my four brief videos in which I present examples of scientific facts contained in the Bible, facts that the writers thousands of years ago could not have been aware of without divine knowledge given to them by Jesus Christ / The God of the Bible. And today's scientists agree with those facts!

[@18dot7]

Babble does not talk magical beings into existence. All your efforts trying to show your delusional world view would be correct are totally in vain. You will never have evidence for your imaginary friend. If you think you do, you do not know what qualifies as evidence. a. What is your BEST evidence for the existence of your magical being? Careful here, only a complete idiot would respond with "I have a book", proving they don't know what qualifies as evidence b. Would said evidence convince >ME< or others? c. If your answer to b. is a "no"-why did it convince >YOU

[@darrenpick8919]

🙏🏼❤️🔥XO when you fall in love with the author of the Bible ? Only one author, ✍️🙏🏼❤️🔥XOXOXO

[@marioarmas1459]

Nah there were multiple authors... You better study bible more without the christian bias.

[@BoswachtBlog]

Harris' ego is his benchmark, hence God must surpass his ego to exist. Harris is a very small man.

[@81Wordsworth]

"Harris' ego is his benchmark, hence God must surpass his ego to exist. Harris is a very small man." Couldn't disagree more. I find both of these men to be amazingly without egos. They're about ideas, not about themselves.

[@jerrylanglois7892]

No ego, just someone who values TRUTH, not bullshit.

[@BoswachtBlog]

@@jerrylanglois7892His truths are hypotheses, theories at best. That's a shallow truth if you ask me.

[@jerrylanglois7892]

'' His truths are hypotheses, theories at best '' ? Prove it. Waiting... @@BoswachtBlog

[@Sindigo-ic6xq]

same with you@@BoswachtBlog