Saturnalia: The World Turned Upside Down

[@tribunateSPQR]

What Roman holiday should we cover next?

[@StanGB]

Parentalia!!

[@Atipaj]

Perhaps do a part II of Saturnalia, in that how the Roman holiday was conjoined with Christianity and the birth of Jesus

[@Bluebelle51]

any I'd love to learn more

[@Carelock]

Gotta be Neptunalia! Everybody loves a Longshoreman 😂

[@WildMen4444]

Liberalia might be fun

[@kauz33]

This channel is am oasis of roman history, i was so tired of every channel talking about roman history focusing on military conquests or symple biographies that end up creating the idea of "one man vs it's country" narrative eve with the best of intentions, having a channel dedicated to a material analysis of rome and it's social classes and engaging with the ethics and moral of those times like you do is marvelous work my friend

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you! I owe a great debt to the many scholars who have shaped my perspective on Roman history. I know that it isn't as popular on youtube to approach topics from this vantage point but I feel my work is reflective of where modern scholarship is so hopefully in time other channels will adopt these approaches.

[@ADITYAMISHRA-h7g]

Cant express my love enough for this channel for unbiased view of rome, with stories of humans that made it rather thanjust spqr, glory, conquest and what not

[@nathanielmathews2617]

Love the conclusion to this video. The master-slave dynamic has always appeared present and it is morbidly fascinating to see how people coped societally as well as individually. Both may suffer in the master-slave relationship but the repugnancy of the master is so clear every time

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks! To me the inherent cruelty and inhumanity of slaveholders is apparent but unfortunately many must be reminded of something so obvious.

[@nathanielmathews2617]

@tribunateSPQR What was left unsaid for so long has to be reinforced. Tragic things got this way

[@danopato6]

This was an absolute banger full of moral clarity and fiery conviction.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you! Was a point I was wanting to make for a while now and Saturnalia felt like the perfect tie-in for it

[@andrewwilliams7661]

I’ve seen plenty of videos by plenty of creators covering Satunalia (History Civilis is especially good on this topic). However, I really appreciated how (in addition to covering the basics) you provided some poignant insight and highlighted things I’d never heard before. I subscribed to your channel since you obviously do your own research and don’t just regurgitate the same stuff everyone else puts out about Ancient Rome. This video did not disappoint. Please keep doing what you’re doing because I’m digging it.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks! I like Historia Civilis as well and its flattering to be compared to his work. This video (like all of my content) is designed for people who know the basics and are looking for something a little deeper, I know that it will never have the same mass appeal but to hear that it is appreciated by people who recognize the work that goes into it is very meaningful to me.

[@C104-k5m]

Absolutely fascinating - despite being familiar with the social constructionist model, I never quite considered its implications in combination with Saturnalia. A true shame that only writings from a fraction of the slaveholding elite survives - who knows how many the event inspired to protest against slavery in their own time (or maybe nobody at all, after all Locke also defended slavery despite his same idealised state of nature)

[@B_Estes_Undegöetz]

There were a number of slave uprisings recorded by historians especially in the late Republican era. The revolt led by Spartacus was the most famous and well documented. The Romans were never convinced by these revolts or by any ethical or even economic arguments (reformers like the Gracchi noticed the effects the abundance of slaves and their overuse to replace Roman citizen wage laborers was having on society and the economy) to abandon their slavery based economic system. Karl Marx felt slavery was so fundamental to the ancient classical Greek and Roman world he even called slaves the primary and defining technology of their economic system and their mode of production. Marx called Ancient Greek and Roman economies “slave economy” and “the slave mode of production”. For Marx slavery defined the ancient world’s economic relations and defining of how they got things done. This didn’t give way to feudalism and the nominally “free” peasant, and the serf-based “feudal mode of production” until after the 5th century AD.

[@C104-k5m]

@@B_Estes_Undegöetz I chose not to mention Marx production model despite him and Locke puting such attention on labour because his theory of history is generally dismmised even by Marxist scholars. Not to say that the economy wasnt heavily tied to labour, or that a class based is usesless mind, but I felt the need to mention it. Slave revolts arent what I was lamenting about, tbh. People dont like being slaves. Duh. It was more so if Romans had actual moral scrouples about slavery. As you say, Gracchi approaced the issue from a purely economic lense

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks! I'm hoping that the Herculaneum scrolls have a few surprises in store for us. Would love to know more about Roman history from outside our reduced elite-centric perspective and just have to keep my fingers crossed and hope against hope that there is a treasure trove of documents somewhere that can help us out.

[@astrolonim2032]

Incredible that you guys make a new video weekly. Thank you! I just discovered this channel and I’m in love.

[@alexandergoldenhar5974]

So glad we're moving away from viewing Rome as this bastion of ancient liberty and morality and presenting it realistically and without Western nostalgia goggles

[@StanGB]

Really great video - its so interesting how tweaking our perspective only slightly ( not taking the slave masters at their word) can result in a radically different understanding of Roman history.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you - it's always puzzling to me how few adopt this stance because everyone accepts that the Slavery Douglas was objecting to in the passage I quoted was unjustified but too many feel that ancient slavery was simply "how things worked back then" and refuse to ponder the implications any further.

[@gmunz3643]

The cultural memory of primitive communism / tribal society, as described by Lewis Morgan and developed by Friedrich Engels. Famously embodied by the Haudenosaunee.

[@drqwyxz3588]

excellent informative and educative video. such richness in vocabulary, brilliant eloquence, masterful presentational skills, beautifully articulate. truly enjoyful. thank you and keep good work going on.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Much appreciated, thank you for the kind words!

[@EI-diablo-r9i]

I came to know more on saturnalia than what i saw on google and certainly wasn't dissapointed. Really cool thing and most of all your way of speaking is too góod. I have been meaning to speak like this for such a long time but cant really find the right way to do it, in practise. Slow clear concise, to the point and short. I hope i havent conditioned myself to be speaking fast although i do think it's a play on wanting to be just done with it. I seem to be rambling but again great video, great narrating. Loved it.

[@tmbrabantia6365]

I would say that the best analogue is the modern carnaval/mardi gras. In which social norms are flipped upside down. It is a catholic feast that for example in the Southern Netherlands has traditions like a "prince" being chosen from the common people who "rules" the village/city during this time of year. Some places also have a tradition like people from the city wearing farmers clothing and people from the villages wearing more luxurious clothes like city folk. It is celebrated in a multitude of places, though in the Netherlands mostly in the Catholic south

[@maxschreck4095]

Great video as always

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks again!

[@Yora21]

Saturnalia still lives on as Karneval in the German Rhineland region, which was the borderland of the Roman Empire. In other parts of Germany, those festivals are regarded as very strange and chaotic.

[@kaloarepo288]

Wasn't there a festival in the Middle Ages called the Feast of Fools that was similar to this with the inversion of societal roles and also parody of church festivals and dogmas. Designed to allow people to let off steam for a day or so?

[@B_Estes_Undegöetz]

15:15 In conclusion… just a little hint of unattributed Marx there I noticed. I like how you did that.

[@tribunateSPQR]

It’s One of my absolute favorite Marx quotes, really excited I was able to work it in

[@keskonriks710]

If the Saturnalia celebrated Liberty and Equality, then surely the 1st of Mai would be the closest modern equivalent?

[@tribunateSPQR]

For most of the world maybe, but in the US we have intentionally separated 1st of May from its labor connections. We can't have workers getting any ideas about international solidarity after all

[@TobyTubeS]

great story!

[@matthewpopp1054]

12:22 well, maybe. You said at the beginning the celebration came after all the work in the fields was finished. So maybe it wasn’t as lavish an experience as it was for house slaves living in the city but some free time was probably inevitable

[@nebojsag.5871]

Certainly possible. But ultimately, we don't know.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Perhaps, but it would have depended on the masters. Cato the elder was a famously harsh master and put his slaves to work building tools during the winter.

[@nebojsag.5871]

@@tribunateSPQR Wasn't Cato considered basically a psychopath even by the rest of the aristocracy?

[@tribunateSPQR]

@ they thought he was weird and they were right

[@randomperson6988]

14:10 bars

[@TheGritherr]

Nicely done, much truth.

[@joeyates3909]

very good

[@Kuudere-Kun]

There is no documentation of Sol Invictus being tied to December 25th till 354 AD. Christmas was tied tot hat day already in the Pre-Nicene era. One can easily make Christmas about what Saturnalia was about be recalling how the Long Term Goal of the Incarnation of Christ is the restoration of Eden. However the origins of Christmas probably have more to do with Christianizing Hanukkah, which was itself a sort of Independence Day.

[@elvolvasky69]

This Other was yule that hakkan the good move it the 25 to mix it with Christmas

[@Kuudere-Kun]

@@elvolvasky69 Yule wasn't someone Christians had any contact with yet in the 4th Century.

[@mavrospanayiotis]

Yes and no. The Philocalus simply dates when the dies Natalis (dedication) for the Temple of Sol Invictus happened. 25th of december... wich in Roman tradition means a yearly commemoration since it was the date that deity was legally recognized (in 275, by Aurelian). (added here, since answers given disappeared) Filocalus is also the same first documented use for Christmas the 25th of december: Filocalus calendar. What i'm stressing here is that the dies Natalis for the Invictus was related to 275 dedication of the Temple by Aurelian, although Antiochus of Athens was already pointing to the birthday of the Sun (astrologically) the 25th of december (in the III century if not even before). The dedication of the Temple IS the dies natalis and Aurelian probably chose that date because fell in the solstice within a symbolic framework. For the christian Christmas we have no real dating except for the Filocalus: it's the most ancient document and refersnto Rome's community while we know that most christianity used other days like Epiphany (manofestation - in the flesh) of Lord Jesus, the 6th of january. Clement of Alexandria (150-215) doesn't seem to know a winter birth of Jesus, giving dates in August, May or April. So when Filocalus was written we have a temple festival in Rome for the Sol Invictus going since 50 years, while in Rome the birth of Christ was just being described for the first time in december.

[@elvolvasky69]

@mavrospanayiotis yes, but before is not any record Aurelian was a great emperador, but he wanted to eliminate Christmas and put it in that day because of that The cult was before in 21, not 25

[@mavrospanayiotis]

​@@elvolvasky69In reality Filocalos is the first to register the date 25th for both Jesus and the dedication of the Temple by Aurelian, wich occurred in 274/5. In that time most people used other dates, as testified by Clemens of Alexandria (August, May, April, always around the 20th day of the month). In the east many churches celebrated the Epiphany (6th january) as birth of Christ... so it's improbable Aurelian chose a date that was already used to celebrate the Sun (Anthiochus of Athens testify the "birthday of the Sun, wich occurred around the 25th, moving until the gregoria reform... in Italy we still call 13th december the shortest day, since it was solstice before the reform of the calendar) but not still universally recognized by Christians as a whole. The birth date was still undecided in Christianity, it's hypotisised that Rome officially adopted it some years before Filocalos wrote the calendar (336, with later additions to 345, so it's possible it became a thing during Constantine reign). I tend however to think that it's not much a "stolen" festivity as told by some: the Natalis of the Sol Invictus was yes a recurrence with astrological value but was mostly tied to the dedication of the Temple of Sol, but maybe the date was attractive and then adopted by the community of Rome.

[@julianadeau5797]

I always love Saturnalia and I celebrate it every year. I also like to call it "The Sacred Revolution".

[@CBrace527]

I'll never look at Saturnalia the same way again

[@davidchicoine6949]

Problem with marx is he didnt practice what he preach ...

[@MatthewCaunsfield]

Yep, the non domestic slaves were out of sight, out of mind (most likely)

[@tribunateSPQR]

All the talk about how Romans were "kind to their slaves" unfortunately completely neglects the rural slaves that were often worked to death.

[@richarddemuth7077]

SATURN was the ORIGINAL image for the "Grim Reaper"!

[@DerMannDerSeineMutterwar]

I personaly would compare Saturnalia more to the Carnival Traditions.

[@OokwaYikmagwa]

Bravo

[@theshivelyshow5784]

can you bump your commentary up to at least the level that you have the subscriber and like clip? it sounds like you’re whispering when i listen in anything other than airpods

[@richarddemuth7077]

Justin was clearly WRONG about Saturn because IF Saturn had ever enjoyed any such equality with or superiority over Jupiter then his temple would ALSO have been on the Capitoline Mount INSTEAD of at the base of it in the Forum.

[@WildMen4444]

Unless there's a specific reason that it's where it is. The location of the temple itself was an important factor to consider when building the temple

[@richarddemuth7077]

@WildMen4444 The reason would naturally be, according to the mythology, that Jupiter DISPLACED Saturn as chief god of the Olympian pantheon.

[@cano4085]

another roman banger

[@tribunateSPQR]

thanks!!

[@Nous98]

Thanks for being the voice and reason of the poor and oppressed among the sea of right-wing Roman history enthusiasts. Your channel and efforts show us that interesting in and studying Roman history as well as other supposed “great” empires should not led you to only be alt-right alpha who glorify injustice and promote outdated moral and imaginary past. We learn from history to better ourselves and our society. History should make us humane, understanding, and hope for our collective progress! Io Saturnalia!!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you! I agree with your perspective entirely - I want to make informative content that lets people learn from Rome (both negative and positive attributes) instead of venerating a society that never existed. Rome was the cause of much suffering in the world and we owe it to those who bled and died under its yoke to learn from their mistakes and create a better world.

[@WildMen4444]

IO SATURNALIA!!! Ave Saturnus!

[@jimmyfaulkner1855]

Your last line was taken from Karl Marx

[@Ancient__Wisdom]

Io Saturnalia!

[@timostockmann7712]

great

[@nebojsag.5871]

One day, hopefully soon, we will be judged just as harshly for our enslavement of animals as we judge the ancients for their ownership or slaves. Until you've realized this truth, don't you are ask "how could they do something so obviously evil and wrong?!" They enjoyed the fruits of their sin and kept the sin itself out of sight and out of mind as much as possible, just like you do.

[@ThomasMadden-hd1oz]

If God or evolution had wanted animals to be equal they would have been given the ability to speak.

[@nebojsag.5871]

@ThomasMadden-hd1oz That's an abject non-argument. Go vegan.

[@raulpetrascu2696]

And machines. I know they're basically toasters now but imagine after a future robot revolution for equal rights they looking back at us doing basically slavery to things we see as disposable objects and property no matter how smart or sentient it seems

[@nebojsag.5871]

@@raulpetrascu2696 Meh. We'll cross that bridge when and if we ever get to it, which I doubt we ever will. Machines will become ludicrously powerful and efficient but never sentient.

[@Atipaj]

My God you had to quote Marx lol

[@andrewwilliams7661]

Anyone who invokes Marx in order to condemn slavery is telling you they care more about invoking Marx than they do about condemning slavery.

[@Atipaj]

@@andrewwilliams7661 I wouldn't go that far for the KZbinr

[@andrewwilliams7661]

@@Atipaj I meant it more towards some of the other silly comments I’d seen. I love this channel and meant no disrespect towards him.

[@ColonelAsshat]

@@andrewwilliams7661 lmao

[@tribunateSPQR]

It's such a great line - I couldn't help myself!

[@klaojungwiwattanaporn6927]

Me, every time I found new entertaining channels discussing Roman history: Please don't be weirdly fascist, Please don't be weirdly fascist, Please don't be weirdly fascist, Please don't be weirdly fascist

[@Eva-b9p8w]

😡

[@alphamikeomega5728]

I'd like to critique the idea that slaves had a right not to be slaves. Neither empirically, nor as a result of Roman law did slaves in Rome have this right - even if today it is a human right, and even if some versions of natural law would also give us this right. I find the empirical view of what rights we have most useful and most revealing: to have a right, you must be able to exercise it and there must be a way to defend it. Simply codifying a right, or appealing to natural law, without enforcing it does not improve people's situation.

[@M_y_st]

He's a Mark's cyst so naturally also a liar

[@notabene9804]

Frederick Douglas was a hell of an author. Also the Gospels aren't valid historical sources my guy.

[@lettuceman9439]

It is, a valid historical source. Almost every source we have are bias and the Gospels aren't a exception, remember that mark, Matthew and Luke have different audience in mind and can be used as a flashpoint of that specific time and the ministry of Jesus, Be it the Historical Jesus as his teaching and the theological nuances of early Christianity and Second Temple Judaism.

[@Gawainer]

I think you are reading history backwards by imposing your just views about slavery onto the ancient world. Romans weren't hypocritical in extending a holiday to slaves, any more than they recognized slavery as an immoral institution. That's modern. Roman morality was not about good vs. evil ,it was about shame vs. honor.

[@ColonelAsshat]

only roman history channel on YT that quotes marx. absolutely goated

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks! Hopefully I can inspire a few others!