Sulla, Rome's Bloodiest Dictator

[@tribunateSPQR]

This topic was requested by channel member 1917girl - become a member today to make requests: kzbin.info/door/7Jx8j3giv0rsDX0wgz9uGQjoin What do you believe was the most significant factor in the collapse of the Roman Republic?

[@Ancient__Wisdom]

Augustus - I think it still could have been saved even after Caesar

[@WorthlessWinner]

@@Ancient__Wisdom - i saw an interview with the author of a book, "the failure of augustus" that seemed to suggest he actually did plan to restore the republic like his propaganda said, but his long life screwed that up

[@WorthlessWinner]

Elite intransigence. The republic changed a lot over it's long history. The form of the late republic was unstable and needed to change, due mostly to the expansion creating issues it wasn't designed for. However, the resolution into a monarchy (which I'll say is needed for the republic to "collapse" not just change again) seems only one of several forms it could've resolved into. Once it became a monarchy it seemed stuck there, but it could've got stuck in other states (potentially). European states got in a similar situation in the enlightenment, many had revolutions but some had slower changes that preserved more of the original system; the latter had elites that were less intransigent. Rome could've changed more like the UK than Russia, if it hadn't got a Cato Though Monarchy took a while to settle as the form the republic would change into, I suspect another change wasn't even unlikely at the start of Augustus reign but was very unlikely by the end of it (as the lack of any effort to capitalize on Augustus end shows).

[@paullowman9131]

Cato the Younger. Arrogant, elitist and an oligarch; what was there to like?

[@WorthlessWinner]

@@paullowman9131 - he's better than cato the elder at least ;P

[@shaggycan]

It's ironic, Sulla and Gaius Marius are largely forgotten by all but scholars but they did 80% of the damage to the republic. Ceasar just finished it off, but he's the one that's remembered.

[@di3727]

People also can't name every Liberator except for Brutus and Cassius and that's a maybe.

[@Tinil0]

To quote the video you just watched, "...there has been a tendency by too many to craft a feckless "both sides" narrative that casts Sulla and his opponents as two sides of the same demagogic coin."

[@felipitofeliciano8652]

Let’s remember, Sulla retired and gave up power in 79BC. Sulla attempted to give back power to the senate.

[@veila0924]

​@@felipitofeliciano8652 Sure, but he inspired many to seize power like him. The blueprint

[@di3727]

@@veila0924 yeah, but Marius was also a senile fool by then and he needed to get knocked down a peg or two. And yeah, I know he died like two weeks in, but he just really had to throw a baby tantrum because gods forbid they don't want an old man who barely knew where he was in power. Carbo should have offed himself in dishonor along with Marius Minor before Sulla kicked their teeth in.

[@Maphisto86]

It is often forgotten that even the most powerful of dictators throughout history absolutely depended on a powerbase and the fear of the masses to maintain their rule.

[@tribunateSPQR]

They're nothing without the people around them and they rely on a cowed populace to preserve their power

[@quentinaguilera1527]

Ceaser was the greatest Emperor and arguably the first Emperor he went on a crazy run through Gaul million and million

[@Maphisto86]

@@quentinaguilera1527 No question Julius Caesar was a great general and had a longer term vision than the more reactionary members of the senate of Rome. That is beside the point I was trying to make though. Point is no matter how skilled a general or charismatic a statesman Julius Caesar was, he would be just one man without the backing of his soldiers and a large majority of the Roman public behind him. No leader in history, good or bad, stood alone.

[@maxsonthonax1020]

​@@tribunateSPQR The meek shall & do inherit the earth every time they let themselves be cowed by their rulers, dictators, oligachies, monarchies, the Market, it doesn't matter which.

[@citricdemon]

it's often forgotten how many of the populace agree with the dictator. civil wars don't happen exclusively between pawns

[@Adsper2000]

Sulla's original march on Rome was justified, because Marius used corruption to try to steal his lawful command. But what Sulla did after the second march is basically indefensible. He made zero attempt at reconciliation, broke basically every republican precedent and ended constitutional legitimacy, all while pretending to be a traditionalist. He is an inspiration to those who break tradition in the name of tradition.

[@scimaniac]

This video doesn’t mention the Tribune of the Plebs before Sulla’s infamous march, Sulpicius. He transferred command from a consul to a private citizen, Marius, which broke constitutional norms.

[@Samuel-wm1xr]

I disagree with the distinction. I am no fan of the Optimates and I don't consider Sulla as doing anything worthwhile, but Marius' own terror in Rome after Sulla left the city made it inevitable that there will have to be another purge as well as curbs to prevent a repetition. If Sulla did not carry out those curbs, the Populares will just start another mob purge immediately, instead of later on under Clodius and Caesar. You could accuse Sulla of being short-sighted in that he failed to realize that stopping popular reform will only bottle it up to explode later. But the process of breaking of constitutional norms started with Marius' bypassing of the Senate to remove Sulla, and it is not reasonable to take Sulla's reforms out of its context when no contemporary was even thinking about legality.

[@Adsper2000]

@@Samuel-wm1xr Sulla absolutely didn’t have to take the purges to such extreme lengths. Sure, some people had to go, but Sulla literally devastated the Roman aristocracy for either his own power, or for money, or just because he felt like it. You won’t hear me saying anything positive about the Marians here, but they were far more restrained in their brutality than Sulla was. Sulla didn’t start the partisan split in Roman politics or the corruption in the Senate, but what he did do was make it absolutely irreparable and irreconcilable. He inherited a sick system, and permanently ended any hope of curing it and restoring constitutional legitimacy with his game of crony power politics. I get the difficulty Sulla was placed in: it would have taken an excellent statesman to achieve reconciliation, and expel illegal warlords like Pompey. But Sulla ended up doing the exact opposite of what he intended: creating stability and returning republican traditions.

[@niccolorichter1488]

Assambly taking command and giving it to somebody else was establish constitutional practice since the Punic Wars ( where it was done multiple times ) If Sulla was so angry could have just go back to Rome , find some Optimate Tribune of the Plebs who would call the Assembly and then speak his case before it ( he was a popular man himself ) and most likely gone it back

[@michaelsmyth3935]

Make Rome Great Again!!

[@NomicFin]

The most generous reading I can give to Sulla if I would want to give him the benefit of the doubt is that he might have genuinely thought he was saving the republic from collapse (the fact that he did willingly relinquish dictatorial power would seem to indicate his motives were deeper than just gaining maximum amount of power for himself), but that in no way justifies his actions, or change the fact that rather than save the republic his actions only hastened its demise by showing that anybody could overturn the system of government and make himself supreme ruler if he just had enough military force backing him up. We don't need a modern-day Sulla because, regardless of what one might think of the justification of Sulla's actions, the end result of his actions was that a lot of people got killed for nothing. His most extreme reforms were rolled back the moment he died, most others would get undone over time, and the whole republic collapsed a generation later in major part due to his actions, not in spite of them.

[@johnphipps4105]

Same thing happened with Franco with Spain, and Xiang Yu with China. Take care and God bless

[@geordiejones5618]

The Caesarean Wars were much more tactically and strategically interesting by my god the Social War and the Sullan Civil Wars were just fucking brutal when you dig into it. Octavian and Antony have nothing on Marius and Sulla in terms of bloodshed.

[@tristancombes9658]

Idk man. Octavian was a ruthless fucker as well and had no problem proscribing other romans

[@yhvvcbhjjggjk-id1re]

That is nonsense and you know it

[@ashutoshtripathi.]

@@yhvvcbhjjggjk-id1re He probably means the political bloodshed, not the blood shed in battle

[@nikeomag]

lmao what? Octavian propaganda is unreal, how is it working this long. The second triumvirate killed more people than sullas, augustus rose to power on a river of blood.

[@nothet]

@@tristancombes9658 neither did Antony?

[@StanGB]

Another great video, appreciate you getting this out on a weekly basis

[@tribunateSPQR]

Happy to keep it up so long as there is such a supportive audience!

[@philipwatersdeaf]

Thanks for being on the side of the masses!

[@tribunateSPQR]

There is no place else I would rather be. In the words of Eugene V Debs: “While there is a lower class, I am in it, while there is a criminal element, I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” Thank you for the support!!

[@WorthlessWinner]

Seeing the richest man on earth constantly praise Sulla is spooky

[@lipingrahman6648]

Especially given how many rich men Sulla killed to get their money.🤷‍♂️

[@cashcalum]

Which person praises Sulla? I haven’t seen anything before

[@abdelrhmangamal4829]

Who?

[@ashutoshtripathi.]

Musk?

[@crackshack2]

Ya never know he could be trolling lol

[@wouefn]

He was the last serious attempt to turn back the clock on the Republic. Ended up accelerating it.

[@Croutons957]

I love the political analyses in these videos, it really adds an extra dimension to learning the history than just “this guy did a thing.”

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks - it definitely makes the research and production a bit more time consuming but I hope that people are able to benefit more from this type of approach than if I churned out 3 videos a week that just relayed events and names without any background or context. Very very glad that you find it useful and that there is a community here who does.

[@colindunnigan8621]

Didn't Marius and his followers go on a rampage as well (not that I'm defending Sulla, mind you). I do wish people would stop idolizing historical figures.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Yes, the Marian faction conducted proscriptions in retaliation to an earlier round of Sullan headhunting after Sulla took the city for the first time. Sulla’s second reign of terror (which is the focus of this video) far outstripped the first two rounds in size, scope and duration. He went beyond political foes to basically destroy all advocates for the Roman poor as well as any apolitical rich person who simply had property he wanted

[@colindunnigan8621]

@@tribunateSPQR Didn't know about the first round of Sulla's proscriptions.

[@al-muwaffaq341]

@@colindunnigan8621yeah he marched into Rome and had a tribune executed. I forgot the tribunes name

[@Lazyguy22]

@@tribunateSPQR "the Marian faction conducted proscriptions" so that stuff in the video about it always being the optimates murdering populares wasn't true, then? Not to mention the proscriptions of the Second Triumvirate.

[@the_exegete]

@@Lazyguy22 I mean the Gracchi factions also killed people. It was Rome and this was part of Roman politics sometimes. What's undeniable is that until Augustus the Optimates were always drawing first blood and killing in large numbers. Augustus put a stop to that by basically wiping out the Optimates as a political force entirely. If anything, the example of Augustus shows that Marius was wrong to kill so few.

[@penguin_lich]

Another great video and please keep up the historical connection to recent history and the contemporary era. Drawing these through lines are so important.

[@zacharyreynolds992]

You really need to do a deep dive on Gaius Marius. Truly one of the most unique individuals in Roman history, did an insanely long paper on his during my classics degree and made me realize how much of a realist he was when it came to military doctrine but his inability to master politics lead to his defeat against Sulla and contributed to putting the republic on a path it couldn’t recover from.

[@g.ricepad9470]

It’s so funny that musk is a Sulla fan. He would be in the top of the list In proscriptions due to his wealth

[@tribunateSPQR]

I feel like he will be if he keeps following Trump around showing him 2017 Reddit memes

[@BowHunter87]

Sulla definitely would have hated Elon.

[@tylercummings1458]

I for one was afraid to watch this channel as I have fallen victim to running into reactionaries who idealize a Rome that never existed. I enjoy Roman history due to how much of an influence it plays on Western Society, and the intriguing incite that I think it offers pur modern society as even though so much has changed, there is still a lot of ways in which humans cling to the past, even one as ancient as Rome. Its weird as I've become more left-leaning in politics after reading in depth about Roman history. I felt anger at the death of the Gracchi brothers, frustration and exasperation at the idiocy of Cato, the arrogance and ineptitude of Sulla, and the blindness to the will of the masses that were Julius Caesar's conspirators. The lower classes of Rome, and my sympathy and empathy for them, helped push me to where I am politically today lol. I applaud your channel and am thankful for yet another reasonable voice that tackles ancient Rome in a material analytical way.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Sounds like you are the exact type of viewer I'm trying to reach! This echoes my sentiments in so many ways.

[@ytjjdydtyuttuyeejj7e]

Not mentioning Gaius Marius or any of the actions of the other side of the civil war where Sulla committed his atrocities is such a large oversight that it had to be intentional. This is not a defense of Sulla, who was absolutely a tyrant, monster, and failure, but you give Sulla's actions in a vacuum and make it appear as if his actions appear out of no where by beginning with his second march on Rome. If Sulla was truly just a blood thirsty murderer, why would he not conduct the proscriptions when he first marched on Rome? What happened between the first march, when Sulla only killed one person, and his second march, when he killed thousands? In that space of time, Marius and his faction took control of Rome, and while not committing violence on the same level as the proscriptions, executed many of Sulla's supporters, including the current consul and six former consuls. This is quite a large departure from Sulla's first march on Rome, which resulted in a single death. So when Sulla marched on Rome for the second time, he came back far more violently than the first time. This does not justify his actions, but it adds needed context to them. Sulla's reforms, and by enacting them with violence, was a large contributing factor to the end of the Roman Republic. Although, you make no mention of the political environment that led to those reforms. Marius was consul seven times, five of them consecutive. Political violence was becoming more common, culminating in both sides utilizing assassinations and mob violence to push their agenda. You attacked, rightfully so, Sulla's actions not aligning with his stated goals, but when you discussed the reformers, you took their motivations at their word. While I understand this is a very complicated time period, and you can only fit so much in a youtube video, framing the conflict of the orders as the champions of the plebs, who only cared about the down trodden, versus the powerful nobles, who only coveted power and wealth, is an extreme oversimplification. You paint the issue as black and white to further condemn Sulla, which is unnecessary because there is so much despicable about him to begin with, and then it gives pro Sulla people the ability to ignore your points because of the clear bias. Ultimately I believe it's best to view Sulla as a person who escalated all of the violence and corruption that was already happening in Rome, and my big issue with the way you've framed this, is you make it appear that Sulla is the one who created this violence and corruption out of thin air. I do really like your presentation and thought the video was still very informative, but I just wanted to give some feedback.

[@superspongebobpupurax3898]

The video has to be downright malicious to not mention Marius. How is it even possible not to mention why the civil wars happened

[@Spoonishpls]

And just replaced it with trying to tie opposition to reformers like Ceasar with support of American conservative politics? This video felt like a fever dream

[@Adrfhrhg]

Thank you for typing this up, I was going to give a similar speech but I see you’ve beat me to it. This video was incredibly biased, and trust me I’m not one to defend Sulla’s actions. I completely agree, he was a bloodthirsty tyrant, however it is unfair to not present him in the context he lived in, or the actions of his contemporaries, especially Marius’s.

[@Adrfhrhg]

@@superspongebobpupurax3898right? This video felt like a strange fever dream

[@FishMcFish420]

Babe wake up, new Tribunate video just dropped.

[@tribunateSPQR]

It’s the best way to spend a Sunday afternoon

[@vasco3293]

Your point about judging someone for their actions and not their words is relevant to this day. We always say actions speak louder than words. But people tend to ignore the actions and morality of a person in favor of what that person has most recently professed.

[@hyperion3145]

The irony of Caesar calling Sulla a "political illiterate" when he would do the same thing and be assassinated by the people he himself had alienated

[@tribunateSPQR]

The irony is that Caesar ended up being assassinated by some of the people that he had forgiven and welcomed back into Roman elite society. Sulla showed no clemency and Augustus would not make the same mistakes as his adoptive father when he purged led his own round of proscriptions with the 2nd triumvirate. He chose to follow Sulla, not Caesar

[@hyperion3145]

@@tribunateSPQR A good point and another bit of irony. It makes me think Sulla wasn't too concerned about his reforms lasting past his death since Augustus would show he could do a lot more with similar tactics, Sulla just seems to have secured legacy and then couldn't be bother by anything in his retirement since he had already got everything he wanted. The deeper I look into Sulla and Marius, the odder both seem. Keep up the good work.

[@quentinaguilera1527]

His ego made he forgive and he rather have you in his face when you and I know I'm letting you live everything is ok not problem but he didn't follow the omens all day ides of March and he payed for it slaughtered by friends men he forgave and trusted but his name still lives that is amazing Ceaser and Christ

[@citricdemon]

​@@quentinaguilera1527didn't Augustus do the same thing? I think in suetonius it is written that on more than one occasion, when he became aware of a plot, he simply mentioned it publicly and it went away

[@johnphipps4105]

​@@hyperion3145I think it is because Sulla was hoping to save the Republic meanwhile Augustus had given up on it seeing reality for what it was, that the people were incapable culturally to self govern. Similar thing happened with Franco and Xiang Yu. Check out the Kyklos, the cycle of constitutions. Take care and God bless

[@chr0matic556]

thank you for continually providing high quality content :)

[@tribunateSPQR]

thank you for the consistent support

[@Antonius2085]

This is a fantastic analysis of a brutal and complex dictator but I think that by leaving Marius and Sulpicius (and their riot and abdication of Sulla’s generalship against a true threat Rome in Mithridates) you aren’t giving a full enough picture to what catalyzed Sulla’s march on Rome. Had Marius and Sulpicius not lead a riot against Sulla and the consuls of the time, I believe the Republic probably would have been better served. That said, Sulla’s actions afterward did further the destruction or the Republic but I think adding Marius’ megalomaniacal thirst for power would have helped fill out the entire picture of why BOTH of these men were responsible for the fall of the Roman Republic.

[@bmoney6482]

This channel never misses

[@tribunateSPQR]

thank you!!

[@FlaviusJuliusItalicus-vb5gx]

Thank you so much man, Sulla is one of my favorite Romans ever. I'd love to see a coop with Schwerpunkt, he also covers a lot of these topics

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you - very glad that you found the video informative. I wasn't familiar with Schwerpunkt but I'll check out the channel!

[@Coolcleverstone]

​@tribunateSPQR That guy tends to emphasize the Indo-European Conquest roots of the Romans, he doesn't sugarcoat what he thinks at all.

[@johnphipps4105]

​@@tribunateSPQRHe gives the best most detailed videos on medieval topics, just wish that I had a transcript for me to read, his voice is hard for me to understand and I understand things better reading them. Take care and God bless

[@briankonash8438]

Thanks!

[@tribunateSPQR]

You’re welcome!! Thank you for the support!

[@damonl9981]

Your videos always go hard. Good stuff.

[@WorthlessWinner]

That Sulla did step down in the end makes me think he believed his own propaganda, even though I don't believe it myself

[@tribunateSPQR]

I totally agree - we all tell little lies to ourselves at times about the purity and nobility of our own motivations (we all need to believe we're the good guys after all). I'm sure Sulla firmly believed he was doing the right thing and that this bloodshed was necessary to protect what he considered the core of the republican system. Stepping down and offering to give an account of his actions to any citizen who asked really shows that he at least bought into it - even if no one else did

[@Tinil0]

I thank you for bringing up the point about abolishing the grain dole in favor of handouts from the aristocrats, I think it's quite prescient and useful in arguments with people who insist that taxation and government aid should be replaced by "charity".

[@The_Rude_French_Canadian]

Dan Carlin’s Death-throws of the republic has one of the best in depth look at Sulla, the dude crept me out, he started pretty decent and went a bit nuts

[@buddhajohnsonpanda7890]

Craven projector

[@PrinceSamurai45]

I love how Crassus and Pompeii followed Sulla during his time as Dictator. Yet, they were the ones who repealed his changes to the office of Tribune.

[@nickyman5557]

Imagine being a Sulla fan

[@tribunateSPQR]

Couldn’t be me

[@Maphisto86]

@@nickyman5557 I dunno. Sulla is kind of like a prototype Santa Claus 🎅. Sulla was good at drawing up “naughty” lists. No presents though. 😟 Actually, maybe he was more like Krampus. 💀

[@nickyman5557]

@@Maphisto86 Sulla beating Marius on the ass with a stick lol

[@cashcalum]

I’m a fan of Sulla’s, I enjoy his rags to riches story or more so riches to more riches, he wasn’t supposed to be much, drank the first third of his life away and then proceeded to go on a crazy rise of the ranks. It’s an inspiring story the entire was until he enters Rome for a second time, then it takes a dark turn.

[@nickyman5557]

@cashcalum3140 he then proceeded to kick the later so far from under him that the fall coukd be heard throughout the Mediterranean

[@JumpingSauce]

IDK man, after listening to Storm before the Storm by Mike Duncan, I got the impression that Marius was wayyyyy bloodier to his own Romans. Sulla's conscriptions were mostly confined to the upper class, while marius unleashed chaos onto the whole city (upon his rather dramatic return to the city), massacring the poor of Rome. History painting Sulla as the bloodier one is oligarchic propaganda. "waaaaaa, sulla went after rich people, why couldn't he have killed poor people like the noble marius, waaaaaa, it's not fair!!"

[@1917girl]

Fantastic video! I feel like every other video about sulla I've watched has skipped over mentioning any of his reforms to strip plebians of their already meager rights. I enjoy that every time I watch one of your videos I find it very easy to draw modern parallels to a lot of the things you describe.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks! I appreciate the suggestion as this was a fascinating topic, and hopefully it was worth the wait. The sources are listed in the description if you're interested in reading further on the topic. Parenti in particular gets the context of Sulla really well in my opinion

[@WorthlessWinner]

Rolling things back to where they were before the first secession of the plebs about 400 years before shouldn't even count as traditional, that's radical change

[@johnphipps4105]

​@@tribunateSPQRHave you read of the kyklos? The "cycle of constitutions", and do yoi believe it applies to Rome? Take care and God bless

[@linasayshush]

He tried to make Rome great again and ended up accelerating its demise. You know what they say about history repeating itself.

[@TheOwneroftheIC]

Saying both sides aren't wrong is laughable when Cinna was his last opponent. Marius, sure, he was a force for good, but Cinna was a grasping, greedy middleman elevated far beyond his station, and his son was an incompetent.

[@Judsonator]

Hey there! Loved this video. Thank you for sharing your knowledge

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it!

[@nicholasnelson8641]

Nice video, although I would like to see a video with your thoughts regarding Gaius Marius. You mentioned previously that many people see Marius and Sulla as opposite sides of the same coin. However you consider this to be a false dichotomy. Why exactly do you hold this view? Beyond the Optimate vs populares factional differences, many people (including admittedly myself) have difficulty seeing the two men as all that unlike given how simular their overall actions appear to be.

[@drworm77]

So I’m working on my first novel, I stumbled on this video because of a vague recollection I had talking about Sulla in high school. I think you just gave me the inspiration for my villain ;)

[@Boardwoards]

keep dropping bangers

[@BLooDCoMPleX]

I just discovered this channel and in the span of like 3 videos it has become one of my favorite history channels. I love naked contempt against reactionaries you display lmao

[@Dafydd283]

You’re really hitting it out of the park lately!

[@Dan_dan281]

This is the worst take of Sulla I think I’ve ever heard. It’s always interesting how those who criticise Sulla always leave out the crimes of Gaius Marius and what was done to him, personally and his family and his supporters by Marius. Marius contravenes ALL Mos Maiorum, repeatedly - glossed over. Marius marches on Rome - gets a pass. Marius conducts purges - conveniently forgotten. Marius’ troops actually sack the city, go on a killing and r&ping spree for days, including in the plebeian areas, and have to be put down by deadly force by, Cinna’s men (his own ally) - um, yeah no comment. Sulla marches on Rome - tyrant. Sulla orders those guilty for the previous murders and proscriptions executed - tyrant & murderer. Sulla makes reforms that would have ensured that another Giaus Marius (or Pompey or Caesar) would not have arisen - called a tyrant and his warnings and laws are ignored. Pompey and Caesar (and Cato) later rise to prominence and they destroy the Republic - Sulla’s fault (apparently).

[@matthewct8167]

He is basically the reverse Robin Hood😂

[@galwitprifor001]

King John? That’s somewhat appropriate.

[@danielrichwine2268]

I believe that the Dynamics that changed Rome as they became an empire made eventual monarchy inevitable. More and more, being a farmer did not pay, as more and more. These things were driven by slave labor. Large plantations were the rule, which caused fewer and fewer people to become richer and richer. Meanwhile, the citizen soldier model was going by the wayside as the manpower to run an empire is quite different than the manpower to defend a city. More and more troops became personally loyal to their general as opposed to Rome as an abstract City. Sulla or no, these Dynamics were going to end up with one person who controls the army, also controlling all of Rome.

[@matthewct8167]

Maybe I understood it wrong, but didn’t Marius start a purge before Sulla?

[@tribunateSPQR]

He did, but his proscriptions were much more limited and were directed at the supporters of Sulla who had previously engaged in proscriptions against Marius' supporters after Sulla illegally captured the city. Marius and his proscriptions were much more akin to punishment directed at those who supported Sulla's earlier coup

[@screetstreet3232]

Love this channel❤❤❤❤

[@tribunateSPQR]

thank you!!

[@Warmaker01]

I want to add that I'm not the biggest expert on Rome. I'm more a casual guy, read some books on them, etc. How the Roman Republic operated was fascinating because of all the established checks and balances. They were super paranoid about too much power consolidating into one man. Yet they still had Dictator for times of duress, and the man was *supposed* to set aside said power once the crisis was over. It worked for them for so long. Even through the trying times of the Second Punic War. But it is after that war was when you really started to see the strange behavior in Roman politics, to include murder. Roman politics had always been cutthroat. Remember Scipio Africanus was forcibly sidelined. But murder, massacres, political violence was not the way. That changed as time progressed past the Second Punic War. Something was corrupted with the Republic once it became the dominant Mediterranean power.

[@AxionParticle]

Good video liked and subscribed

[@tribunateSPQR]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@OldSchoolSoundscape]

I love your videos because of how strongly I disagree with so much of your interpretation and analysis. I fundamentally disagree with how you view Sulla, as well as other Romans. You are intelligent and articulate and produce quality videos, and I still come away shaking my head because I see the situation entirely differently. Subbed; I wish there was more thought provoking Roman content out there.

[@tribunateSPQR]

thanks - very glad that despite our differences you find this perspective illuminating.

[@Stocks-and-Beyond]

Thank you for your neutral historical interpretation. Far too many Ivy league and Oxford historians maintain their class allegiances and paint Rome's (attempted) reformers in a cynical light.

[@andreweaston1779]

This is a top tier channel

[@gow2ilove]

Love this

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks, I really enjoyed researching and writing this one and hope it starts a great trend of member suggested content

[@eddboi4361]

amazing summary, thank you

[@vincentperiolat4610]

great piece of work! thanks for info/insights. judge the works, not the words! thats a big one to me. ✌️

[@rplpalacio1920]

Magnificent I salute you sir

[@sairadha674]

I always thought Sulla was understood negatively by mainstream historians. Did not know real historians defended him.

[@deathmagneto-soy]

Sulla would have hated the Cybertruck.

[@tribunateSPQR]

I think Sulla is the target demographic for the cybertruck

[@deathmagneto-soy]

@@tribunateSPQR - I think Sulla's followers are the target demographic but to be honest I don't know enough about him. I'd be interested to know what he thinks of the obscenely wealthy flukes who stan him nowadays.

[@mkepioneet]

lol I got an ad for the upcoming Reagan biopic

[@tribunateSPQR]

As a simpleton with the blood of thousands of South American popular campaigners on his hands he really upholds Sulla’s legacy

[@Skypetroller]

Keep it up!

[@seodlotu]

liking the trashing of the great man of history theory. historical materialism is my jam.

[@tribunateSPQR]

Then you've come to the right place! we are firmly opposed to the great man reading of history

[@kategod]

kinda hope we can stop repeating the past someday

[@kersebleptes1317]

Hear hear! Now this is a genuine product of, and a valuable addition to, the best of western thought. Not often a KZbin video gets into that category!

[@patrickquinlan3056]

A very timely episode. I see a reflection of Sulla in Trump.

[@laisphinto6372]

Bullshit

[@patrickquinlan3056]

@@laisphinto6372 Bullshit? What an intelligent comment! Who would you compare Sulla to? Sulla attacked Rome and became a dictator and Trump attacked the Capitol and wants to be a dictator. I suppose your choice would be Julius Caesar, the man who brought down the Roman Republic permanently. I see history in the process of rhyming and all you can say is "Bullshit". So smart, just like Trump.

[@DickyMorin]

My goodness, who wrote this wise and incisive script? It is gratifying to hear the intelligent weaving of facts, history, and understanding into such an informative tapestry that is just as relevant today as yesterday.

[@bearonaromp7473]

We have examples of Sullan influence today in the U.S. U.K. and E.U. The People must do everything they can to stop that evil influence.

[@nenadtomanic1211]

Who in the Western world is comparable to Sulla?

[@jpottoman]

14:04 man spit facts right here

[@tschohanfaitscher3481]

So underrated channel

[@CBrace527]

great work!

[@karolgoofit7901]

If i correctly recall his criminal law reform was pretty good.

[@RobKristjansson]

Sulla was making Rome great again.

[@karnasaur]

What about the 2/3rds of the Mediterranean Basin, ruled by the Roman Republic, but not Roman? The Republic was not particularly nice to them. In reading Roman histories I often throw up my hands and wonder why on Earth I should care about the Republican Rights of a bunch of murderous assholes in central Italy. The Republic was doomed as soon as it destroyed Carthage and Thebes.The predatory electoral system of the Romans, which is to say, the outrageous plundering of provinces to repay loans taken out to fund annual political campaigns, caused untold grief to everyone else. Compared to the Roman Republic, the Roman Empire was humanitarian.

[@yibithehispanic]

Love your detailing when you mentioned Pinochet's backstabbing rise to power; Allende indeed was popularly elected but by the time that Pinochet rose to power he was already an unpopular leader, Allende was democratically elected but not a good president, this is why Pinochet did not betray Allende the first time he had the opportunity but wisely chose to wait until Allende's own policies and decision-making further weakened the chilean economy, and no, what the american embargoes did was basically kick an already ill economy that Allende failed to fix.

[@mattlevine5662]

Good video

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thank you!!

[@AvengerAtIlipa]

Good thing this all happened 2000 years ago and could never happen again... right?

[@drrtfm]

The word "great" in "the great man theory of history" says nothing to do with the moral qualities of the individual in question. It's the concept that history is determined by specific actions of particular individuals, as opposed to the notion that historical events would necessarily happen regardless of the particular people around at the time.

[@patrickglenn4038]

Another goodie!

[@czechmeoutbabe1997]

I think that this is the most rare type of Roman history channel. A based one.

[@McToaster-o1k]

Prior to this video I have never in my life had heard or seen anyone defend Sulla. Be it in real life or in the Internet.

[@tribunateSPQR]

They're out there unfortunately. a very small but very loud group.

[@thisissilly9544]

Sulla is the context that is often left out of the caesar story, I don't think you can judge caesar fairly without accounting for sulla

[@Ghost23712]

Love or hate Sulla, bro literally dunked on everyone and then just stepped down from power after what was essentially a bloodbath initiated by both him and Marius. Most people in his position would probably remain paranoid tyrants yet he did not. I still respect the man, the times he was born in were truly something. Ps: I also recommend "Sulla: The roman who attacked Rome" by Generic History Videos who goes really indepth about the man as well as Marius.

[@laisphinto6372]

I recommend cost of glorys three Episodes

[@Ghost23712]

@@laisphinto6372 I'll give them a watch, thank you! I've yet to read "The storm before the storm" as well which is all about this time period.

[@plinioandreasgaston-dabao3843]

Notice us algorithm;

[@avalle4493]

Sulla was a little more complicated. Alot of his reforms do make sense and he is one of the few men in history that actually resign absolute power.

[@GreasusGoldtooth]

Sulla is one of my favorite historical figures. It's a shame he isn't better known. He wasn't a good man, but he was fascinating.

[@Bernie_777]

Sulla is a great historical figure!

[@altimetrosencero8553]

Caesar reforms still can be seen today! Thats incredible,,🗿

[@Anamalfarm84]

Excellent video

[@sugar_walls]

it's like poetry, it rhymes

[@randomperson6988]

To be fair the tribunes did kinda have too much power with how their veto worked. No singular person should be able to hold up the entire running of the government

[@randomperson6988]

Not saying that I support or am trying to justify Sulla’s actions

[@pbohearn]

That was an impassioned and persuasive argument against sulla and his ilk

[@tribunateSPQR]

thank you!!

[@Gary-zq3pz]

Note to self...DO NOT set the time machine with the coordinates of this era. If I do land there, get the Hell away from Rome!

[@tribunateSPQR]

Thanks, very glad you enjoyed it!

[@Dataism]

My only critic is the zero mention of Marius. He deserves just as much blame for what happened.

[@tribunateSPQR]

I will come back to Marius at a later date - I want to do a whole series on him, In my view, his proscriptions were much more limited and were directed at the supporters of Sulla who had previously engaged in proscriptions against Marius' supporters after Sulla illegally captured the city. Marius and his proscriptions were much more akin to punishment directed at those who supported Sulla's earlier coup

[@artistjim114]

Truly, a master class in history.

[@ProbusVerus]

I don't know if you did a video on it but it would be interesting to make a comparison video between Augustus and Mark Anthony in terms of political ideology. Both were Caesarians but were both in the same way? Thanks for the video!

[@tribunateSPQR]

that's a great idea! As far as I know the main "ideological" divide between them was that Augustus was a staunch traditionalist while Antony was more cosmopolitan and open to eastern cultural, philosophical and religious influences. Would be intriguing to dig deeper and see what I can find though.

[@joshkorte9020]

There's a modern politician who reminds me more of Sulla than of Ceasar.

[@nucleardragons]

Little surprise that Musk likes Sulla - I have a feeling he even has a candidate for the job

[@cjthebeesknees]

This video is well articulated and passionate in its defense of the plebeians, the big man upstairs would approve!

[@tribunateSPQR]

thanks! hoping to do a full series on Marius this fall

[@dremarley4388]

Sulla wa on interesting dude. Learned about him when reading the Masters of Rome books by C. McCullough

[@pluralismajestatis9334]

Which historians take Sulla at face value? I am no expert on roman historiography but Sulla seems almost universally reviled for his dictatorship…

[@maxsonthonax1020]

We can skip the overview of Polybius in future. Just let it be taken as understood already.

[@CBrace527]

Honestly not everyone who will watch this knows about polybius or the Roman constitution. It's not exactly common knowledge

[@King_Steffon_II]

Is this the destiny of America 🤔