We Love Writing Heroes That Kill

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[@Awoosa]

Optimus is portrayed as a hero character, but in the reality of the canon, he's a military general at war. The war had gone on for at least a century, so I'm confident to say that Optimus had gone through the whole "do heroes kill" argument a long time ago and is already numb to the moral guilt.

[@rhashadcarter2051]

millions of years actually

[@kelkellacsamana7298]

@@rhashadcarter2051 9 million years to be exact.

[@thebigmightybattleship]

@@kelkellacsamana7298 technically in the bayverse the war only started 19000 years ago

[@tehuselessguig3138]

​@@kelkellacsamana7298 "only" 4 million years

[@გიორგიმოსაშვილი-ო3დ]

He became a zealot, "we kill them all" because they are not on our side

[@aaronball10]

The real story of Michael Bay’s Transformers is seeing a kind, restrained, and friendly leader slowly being pushed towards a ruthless approach after seeing his friends die, his old master betraying him, and his enemies committing genocide on innocent people. It’s likely not what Bay was thinking, but with a few tweaks to the scripts of these films, it could easily be seen that way

[@calebbridges4748]

I've never heard anyone else with this take but this was my read

[@connorp3764]

This is always how I thought of the movies and their approach to optimus prime. This is also why I love the last knight so much believe it or not. After all the stuff that happened in the previous movies and Optimus being a shell of his former self, it barely took much convincing for a poser pretending to be his creator to manipulate him into turning against those left he protects. Even though it’s admittably really corny, Bumblebee speaking brought optimus back to the years before his arrival to earth and reminded him of what he is supposed to stand for and protect. He then reaffirms himself as Optimus Prime leader of the autobots and saves the day in a spectacular fashion. Personally I found this really powerful and it struck a chord with me for some reason, I know it may be a bad movie or whatever but idc i always love it.

[@Epicmonk117]

TBH I love the idea of portraying paragons like Superman and Optimus Prime in _He Who Hunts Monsters_ stories

[@runningbetweenspaces]

Ngl I always imagined there being a group of humans who decided to go against all transformers and some of the autobots defect

[@erikthomsen4768]

I remember when Transformers Prime explored that push to become more ruthless. Megatron was causing the third apocalypse in a row and awakening a god beyond his understanding. Optimus Prime stopped being so diplomatic and tried to tried to kill him. He failed. Ironically it was Megatron's diplomatic overtures that saved the day. Optimus Prime lost his identity in the process and went on a journey of self discovery. "Orion Pax" lacked the wisdom and confidence of past Primes. But his heart was in the right place. Optimus Prime was reborn stronger than ever. Unwavering in his pursuit of peace. But temptered by ruthless pragmatism. Years later Megatron's faction was decimated. Megatron was cut down by Optimus Prime in the final battle. Many fought to the bitter end. Others accepted Optimus Prime's offer of peace. The tragedy of the whole thing is that many sympathetic villians like Breakdown and Dreadwing never got the chance.

[@puddel9079]

Something I would like to point out about John Wick is that while he *is* an assassin, he actually goes out of his way to not harm innocent bystanders. In the first movie, his target used a human shield which of course force him to relent firing on his quarry. In John Wick's case it is a moral *and* ethical imperative to conduct himself so precisely and professionally, nevermind that he is/was a member of a *criminal* society.

[@atomicspartan131]

"Professionals have standards!" -- The Sniper

[@kyze8284]

He also has a mutual respect for the other people, even if he just wants to remove them from the world. Francis, Aurelio, Viggo, Cassian…

[@shadowling77777]

@@kyze8284well not the kid that killed his dog tho

[@jacklansdale77]

@@shadowling77777 Well thats how the kid lost his respect

[@OwlEye2010]

@@atomicspartan131 One is a job and the other's mental sickness.

[@BrotherShaw]

One thing I love about Berserk is that Kentaro Miura is more than willing to go as dark as possible when it comes to humanity's potential for depravity, but he also has the courage to get the audience to understand *why* someone would commit such heinous acts, hero or villain.

[@LuisSierra42]

Yeah, in the lost children arc, Guts is depicted like a monster and throughout the series Griffith is like the hero that inspires everybody, especially in the later arcs. For the people that don't really know what Griffith has done, he's basically Jesus Christ

[@KittSpiken]

For wings?

[@Johnnyupside]

@@KittSpiken For a cheap batsuit

[@WhenIsItUs]

I think Miura shows more on how much more powerful, yet rare, Gut's capacity for forgiveness and compassion is. It's not about condoning what they've done due to their suffering. It's about showing another way when another way looks impossible, and the benefits of taking that less traveled path.

[@GioGioPietromica425]

Except for the horse. The horse will never be understood…

[@TH3F4LC0Nx]

The funny thing about Bay's Transformers movies is that while they got progressively more terrible, Optimus's increasing misanthropic brutality was actually kind of morbidly fascinating to watch. XD

[@გიორგიმოსაშვილი-ო3დ]

Bayformers*

[@apblolol]

The point where bee pulls down the mask and goes all out against his brother to snap him out of it could have been the perfect moment for a return to form.

[@Kylephibbsky]

Misrobotic*

[@thalasowo3373]

That's because Bay focused more on the action and money than the plot. The franchise was originally supposed to end with DoTM, but Bay wanted an action-pack movie. So....

[@TACTIK00L]

In the TF movie lore, you start to see why optimus does what he does. For example, demolisher (the robot he shot while saying a one liner at the beginning of revenge of the fallen) killed almost everyone in an autobot refugee camp filled with displaced cybertronians. Its kinda understandable why Optimus has this hatred and is so brutal because hes not dealing with mindless henchmen, hes dealing with evil genocidal monsters who will kill for no reason. Take megatron in the first movie, he kills a random human for literally no reason and says "disgusting"

[@ericm.8110]

Funfact: The random human was Michael Bay

[@nathanpierce7681]

i still wish sideswipe was the one accompanying optimus instead of ironhide now that the comic is out would've gone full circle for him to go from wanting to kill demolishor himself to simply assisting optimus and coldly watching as demolishor gets killed by his leader maybe have him comment "got what he deserved" as they leave, maybe as a response to one of the soldiers questioning if it was morally okay

[@spacewargamer4181]

Where does that lore come from? They never said anything about that in the movie

[@RKanth54]

@@spacewargamer4181it was in the comics

[@alfieravenguard4594]

Im not saying the decepticons are good... But them calling us parasites and other fun insect nicknames might actually be justified. The reveal that earth is Unicron, the 'Be all end all' monstrosity, and we little bugs are simply "spawns" of a thing that eats everything. Plus the fact that Prime is doing his very best to protect earth (despite Quintessa literally telling him that the biggest galactic parasite is earth itself) is kinda suspicious dont you think?

[@sabretooth7691]

Not killing the villain because it’s morally wrong or makes the hero a hypocrite is the exact BS the villains would come up with to keep the heroes from killing them.

[@MorgkalJ.3z]

And what you just said reminds of Toga from MHA situation in the anime/Manga

[@ryszakowy]

it becomes a problem when serialization gets introduced like most popular example - batman any normally written story would have joker appear 3 times once he gets locked in arkham and makes harley help him escape second time he's locked in maximum prison because nobody believes his insanity plea third time he escapes and this time they send him to a chair and that's at most if you want to use joker's potential fully and NOT make current DC comics mess but they treat prison like a "might need later" box how secure can be a prison when everyone breaks out of it every thursday

[@OwlEye2010]

That just sounds like the villain gaslighting the hero at that point.

[@donaldlambert83]

It bothers me when people misuse the word "murder", e.g: the hero was defending himself against a vicious eneny and stabs him in obvious self-defense... "murder"

[@mysteriiis]

All of this. Most blanket 'killing is wrong' types clearly don't know how the legal system work. And don't care to.

[@ahmadsultan4643]

​@@mysteriiisnot just the legal system, they don't know how morality work they don't know the meaning of the word context

[@NamelessKing1597]

Yep Murder is an UNJUSTIFIED intentional killing. Every single culture has situations where killing is justified, for 99% of them it's been self defense, execution, and war.

[@macmcleod1188]

Yes murder requires malice. Killing isn't murder.

[@DrasticSkuba]

It bothers me too, but it raises an interesting question. How do you justify that which others would call murder? Is it simply the act of killing when someone tries to kill you or another innocent, or is it killing when you have no other alternative? If I tried to kill Batman in real life, I would fail. He would dispatch of me very easily. He could knock me out, disarm me, disorient me, escape... but what if, when I fire a bullet, he makes a conscious decision to aim the sharp end of a baterang at my jugular, killing me? He KNOWS it wasn't necessary because he has the gear, experience and ability to beat me non-lethally. I am not much of a threat. Technically though, it was self-defense. Is that murder, or no?

[@gameroomtimemachine]

Bay lucking his way into creating one of the most complex violent protagonist in recent memory sure is something else.

[@aliciagrayson4203]

I love the fan theory (for lack of better term) that Optimus gets more and more violent as he's becoming more and more jaded by everything going in around him. The kills are subdued in the first because he's killing as a last resort. He doesn't want to, but he's being pushed to it by the situation he's in. Then, in the second, he gets swarmed by a bunch of decepticons, so his more.violent kill is basically him taking out all his anger and fear on the enemy. Then he gets killed. After that, he rips off the Fallens face and tore Megatrons head from his torso because he's actually experienced exactly what they're doing to ever single person they've killed. Then he executes Sentinal because he's already betrayed them once (technically twice by that point, I think) but he also very violently killed Ironhide. Is it that deep? Hell no, it's not. But it could've been. And it would've been awesome.

[@giantenemycrab1192]

I like to think that him being brought back to life sorta messed him up a bit, I mean if you died surely you'd be a different person after coming back right?

[@Candlemancer]

​@@giantenemycrab1192He's seen death because he hesitated before. He's not going to let more innocents meet that fate because he hesitated again.

[@thalasowo3373]

People tend to forget that he's a fighting a war for millions of years. So he's holding back and still being diplomatic is insanity because it's war. War changes you. But the brutality needs to be toned down, and not exactly a justification, but Optimus is justified however not excusable. Bay could've stopped with DoTM but he wanted an action-packed movie. So...

[@ryancampbell7003]

The meta critique about superheroes acknowledging the harm they do reminded me of an early scene from Injustice 2. Damian Wayne calls Bruce out with, “So you’re against killing, but you’re okay with blunt force trauma?”

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

"Can you close yourself off from the moral ambiguity of your violent actions" - Spider-Man Noir

[@VunderGuy]

The problem there is that Damian was literally raised by a death cult and Batman in that story has obviously failed to get him out of that mindset, so of course he'd be making such an obvious false equivalence.

[@britishrex5515]

It's not false though. Blunt force trauma can so easily kill - there are numerous stories of people being killed with a single punch or by being knocked down and hitting a curb. Batman may not deliberately kill but it would be so easy for him to accidentally kill someone with how he fights

[@Rafael_Peixoto]

The thing is: batman lives in an unrealistically violent city for how functional it is. It's already a semi-fantastic setting, so I think we shouldn't think much about the morality of what batman does, because it isn't what his stories tend to talk about

[@ILiekFishes]

@@Rafael_Peixoto I thought that his no kill policy was the basis of many stories that get philisophical with it, so we should absolutely think a lot about the morality of it. Also it's fun.

[@mercury2157]

I honestly think one of the best cases of a story addressing its hero's need to take life is Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance. Not every single person Raiden kills may 100 percent deserve it, not everyone is there because they want to be, but they're still complicit in a system that harms for more innocent people than it employs. In order to cut the head off the snake, Raiden has to cut off EVERY part of the snake that stands in his way. Every person who stands between Raiden and Armstrong, whether they know it or not, are playing the worst type of devil's advocate. Raiden can't delude himself into thinking there's nothing wrong with what he's doing, but he doesn't have time to contemplate either. Countless children are at the mercy of his enemies' employers, on a fast track to end up as the same kind of monster he grew up to be. If Raiden has this capacity and this power to take life, why not take the lives who are damaging all the others?

[@koboldwizard]

This. And also, Raiden himself isn't 100% innocent either, he plays it off as him doing what needs to be done for the sake of justice, yet when he is forced to confront his true nature, he realises who he truly is, a killer who loves to kill. He not only kills those in his way because it's necessary to see good prevail, but also because he enjoys it. Men become monsters and Raiden is a prime example of this, yet he isnt evil, his mindset and actions just don't align with the true good heroes, making him a great anti-hero. Comparing Raiden to Optimus, they both have fairly identical mindsets. Honestly, Raiden deserves a lot more recognition because his character is extremely interesting when compared to others. You could make several topics based solely around him.

[@velocilevon]

​@@koboldwizardRaiden instantly became more badass to me (and he already was a complete hardass in my eyes before) when Monsoon basically tried to mindfuck him with "You're just a psychopath that enjoys killing, stop hiding behind the "for the greater good" facade" that many other villains try in order to break (or weaken psychologically) the hero for an easy kill, except it backfired horribly and Raiden just went: "You know what? After having been a goddamn child soldier and then keeping constantly fighting in wars throughout my entire life, I guess I quite literally was born to kill. I'm a bloodthirsty monster alright, except I'm a monster that doesn't kill without reason, and right now you and your entire organization give me a VEEERY good reason to slaughter you all. Now come here, got some steam to let out." All it really accomplished is just make Raiden hesitate and hold back way, way less lol

[@briandigiovanni6159]

Samurai Jack is the pinnacle of "don't worry they were all robots." Even villains who look completely human that don't show any signs of being robots will have mechanical innards once they're cut in half. It gets to the point that when he fights the daughters of Aku he kills one of them without hesitation, but is genuinely shocked to learn that she wasn't a robot.

[@nousername191]

I vaguely remember an episode saying that Samurai Jack's sword cannot hurt the righteous/innocent. So Jack just swings and lets the blade be the judge. I think. Though to be fair, if you spent 50 years being hunted by evil robots, you'd be stunned when they send an actual evil person after 50 years.

[@Johnnjlee]

⁠@@nousername191 Specifically it was when Aku was able to steal Jack’s sword during a fight and used it against him only to realize it won’t cut Jack

[@ryszakowy]

and jack straight up killed bounty hunters in that one episode and countless squid aliens only reason real people just fall down is cartoon network censorship and i blame it for making every enemy a robot and if they are not robots they blow up with their gimmick machine or it's ok buecause they look like people but it's a demon or some other excuse

[@themace2055]

Vader was so good at killing his subordinates as a show of force that every other villain has to do it to try to evoke that feeling, and they almost always fall short. It's hard to care about a faceless goon as you said. Heroes that kill is a fine line. I think Tony Stark is an interesting figure because more often than not in the comics he's been portrayed in the wrong and constantly makes bad decisions. Him killing makes sense. Superman killing is so unnatural because the point of Superman is that he chooses to be good because that's the right thing to do. It's all execution, and fits some characters better than others imo.

[@Ostinato-Obbligato]

It's because when Vader killed his subordinates, it was due to their repeated failures and incompetence. Their deaths are 'earned,' for lack of a better term. However, with the same ease that he takes lives, he also elevates those he feels have proven themselves. Vader has a firmly established line - useless and stripped of power or useful and granted it. Even Vader has a code, not killing soldiers and generals for the thrill or simply because he can but because he sees it as the most effective way of getting ineffective people out of power to make room for those who might better use it.

[@Chronoflation]

The difference between the flawed hero, the one who aspires to be better, and the paragon hero, the one who seeks to inspire others. That's basically the best way to decide where to draw the line and how to present the characters. Too bad a lot of directors don't seem to get that these days and almost all heroes in (hollywood) cinema these days feels like the flawed normal guy who's trying

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@themace2055 I have met hyper empathetic people that care about faceless goons

[@MasterZhang]

Re: Superman - I am reminded of the line in a comic where Joker decided to mess with Metropolis, only to have Superman effortlessly thwart his plan due to his superpowers. At the end, Superman gives Joker a warning to not try something like that again, or else. Joker replies that he thought Superman had a no killing rule, to which Superman replies along the lines of: I don't have a no killing rule. I just prefer not to kill. There's a difference, and it would be a bad idea for you to try to find out where that difference is.

[@21forevergone]

Is it better to be born good, or to overcome your nature through great effort?

[@hoovy2319]

“I don’t enjoy killing, but when done righteously, it’s just a chore, like any other.” Joshua Graham

[@air-headedaviator1805]

Realizing that Transformers subconsciously motivated my desire to write a story both on the morals of killing robots whom seem sentient, and the morality of killing when it is a constant cycle. So I guess thats one thing to thank the Transformers series for. Also…”we” is doing galactic heavy lifting here lol

[@IncandescentWriter]

It is quite an interesting topic to write about, for sure. I feel like we both have something similar in mind in our stories we want to tell. Hope it goes well. Best of luck. 💛☀

[@sesshowmarumonoke]

I guess it's not a big issue for us to destroy a robot - anything they might feel is programmed. But for Optimus, to kill the way he does is just monstrous. They are, after all, his kind. And when he starts killing humans - albeit the villains - you can't help but think that the good guys would be in jeopardy if he decides that they don't fit into his moral code.

[@Guimhj]

​@hobodonpin a KZbin channel about writing's comment section even... How dare they

[@gojira_guy]

@hobodonpnobody asked for your opinion 💀

[@NeoShameMan]

That story exist is called Nier automata

[@MajorSebbaa]

Optimus is like a viking, a pagan warrior. A pre-christion hero, celebrated for his prowess in combat and the violence he inflicts on our enemies. If you think about it, Transfomers, Autrobots and Decepticons both, are both sentient beings, so that we consider this violence and gore acceptable for children says a lot about the audience preconceptions.

[@negative6442]

I never thought about it like that but it does make a lot of sense. Many, and maybe even most, cultures throughout history have celebrated martial prowess and the amount of violence one can inflict upon the enemy.

[@lau_taro0037]

This is also how knights got a "free pass" on being depraved as the stereotype depicts them as, and how the most brutal, least honorable famous soldiers still leave their cleft of blood in the history books. A couple examples are el "Cid" Campeador, the Great knight Roland, and Baudouin de Bologne

[@rgama1173]

funny enoght, knights themselfs were also selebrated for being able to kill houtherd of men, if just that they were also praise for caring about those weaker that themselvs

[@MrAnimason]

@@rgama1173 what is this writing 💀

[@rgama1173]

@@MrAnimason Rolando furioso, King Arthur, pretty much any pre modern literature operates on the notion that killing was necessary. The modern 'never kill, ever!' Comes from child oriented media in the West

[@ViperPilot16]

17:08: I've never understood the "oh this is when Optimus murders Sentinel". Sentinel kills Iron Hide in cold oil, and was actively working with Megatron weather he had good intentions or not it doesn't matter. Had the roles been reversed Sentinel would have done the same, and we all know what Megatron would of done.

[@Sorain1]

A lot of folks don't know the diffrence between Kill and Murder. Optimus didn't murder Sentinel, he killed him for good reason.

[@HellMonk114]

7:50 I know a lot of people hated Superman snapping Zod’s neck in Man of Steel, but even ten years later that scene still makes me emotional. You can feel the agony Superman feels at being forced to take a life. BvS ruined that by having him casually turn a guy into paste in the next film but… it still works well as a scene at least.

[@Idazmi7]

Meanwhile, Superman commonly kills in the comics. Zod. Hank Henshaw. Darkseid. Imperiex. Countless nazis and Japanese warriors. Superman killed them all. So...

[@Sorain1]

@@Idazmi7 Exactly. He won't go out of his way to kill you, but if it's 'innocents get hurt or Superman kills you' you are already dead. (Nani?) It is within the remit of a hero to kill when the situation calls for it.

[@thereseemstobeenanerror1219]

The scene most definitely was clumsy, but I do understand what they are going for.

[@ShockwaveMuncher]

In the original ending to dark of the moon. Optimus and Megatron negotiate a truce and Megatron leaves earth with the decepticons for good. That ending got leaked so Bay had it changed last minute to Megatron getting the axe (literally) which is why it feels so jarring.

[@riluna3695]

Because god forbid the audience get a well-crafted and carefully woven story that they had advance knowledge of! The only logical thing to do is rewrite it the complete opposite way so that they'll be really surprised! ....at how dumb someone can be. Now, if everyone saw the leak and shouted to the rooftops about how crappy an ending that was, that's one thing. But since you didn't say it, I can't rightly assume it. And I've seen people do dumber things than this anyway. Too many people are obsessed with the power of raw shock value. But adding that to your story is the same as adding any raw ingredient to your meal: there's a really good chance you just poisoned your audience. The lesson is....cook your shock value before serving??? Sure, let's go with that.

[@LainWest]

Holy shit. I had no idea Optimus Prime was so violent. I guess in the movies it flows better and isn't as creepy, but seeing those clips in a vortex is crazy.

[@savagebooks7482]

It's definitely jarring when you realize it haha

[@desuordie4856]

Brush I realised as a kid rewatching the first movie when Optimus how's absolutely ham on the receptions in the forest. He is an absolute machine

[@ilikepigeons6101]

​@@desuordie4856my name is optimus prime and i HATE receptionists

[@supahcomix]

In the cartoons he's not

[@tsukopara2054]

I never cared too much since it's a Michael Bay movie and the spectacle is part of the experience, but I remember feeling awkward as a 10 year old, along with the entire cinema, during the 'give me your face' scene. It was a bit like Man of Steel's neck snap scene, moments where the hero goes a bit too far to where the audience isn't really sure how they feel.

[@mc_zittrer8793]

No mention for my boy Frank Castle? He was technically only a bad guy in the issue he was introduced, and that's only because he was misled by Jackal. Probably my favorite miniseries was Warzone, where he basically became a public menace too great for the Avengers to ignore, and each member took a turn trying to capture him while he frantically blazed his way through third world countries, permanently crippling their arms, drug and sex trades. And he still had the level-headedness to take it easy on the Avengers once they finally teamed up on him.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@mc_zittrer8793 I wish Punisher went after more Marvel villains that are redeemable and worst of the worst

[@Spencebot42]

I had to scroll way too far to see someone mention the punisher. I was rather surprised he wasn't in this video as well.

[@reptiliannoizezz.413]

​@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 Irredeemable, you mean?

[@nathanblue5548]

Optimus Prime is the hero that makes other heroes say "Wow I'm glad he's on our side."

[@Eternal_Sky_Tardis]

This can apply to every versions of Optimus. Most of them being in different context of course

[@TheRunningJoker]

It seams like, even if the villain is a cold blooded killer, it isn’t ok to kill them while they are running away, or even in a holding pattern. That’s anti-hero territory. Once they start to become aggressive, their death becomes more and more a product a product of their own decision. The hero has fewer options, becoming less of a murderer and more like an instrument of their self destruction. But Optimus is an antihero and Han shot first.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@TheRunningJoker Antiheroes who go after the villains who are just low life monsters who are one dimensional and may not deserve it as much as the real pure evil villains the good moral heroes go after

[@NexusProductions-rz1sv]

Uh huh, yeah... So tell me again why Optimus killing a mass genocidal megalomaniac who views his race as superior to everyone else thus ultimately becoming a personification of Hitler is unjustified because they used to be friends even though the actual meaning of his last words reveal he doesn't hold an opunce of regret for his actions and he even fully intends to try again?

[@TheRunningJoker]

@@NexusProductions-rz1sv yeah, Bay kinda excluded one of my favorite staples of the franchise, side swapping. It does kind of change the thinking when the underlings are just completely soulless extensions of their cartoonishly evil leader, rather than a coalition of individual baddies with motivations of their own. I mostly remember watching Beast Wars as a kid, and I have a hard time rooting for an Optimus that would have gutted Black Arachnia/Dinobot(the character) and cracked a joke, before they had a chance for redemption.

[@benzelwasington4059]

There was jetfire he swapped sides

[@jacobstaten2366]

In the 90's and early 2000's a lot of movies like 'Bad Boys' would have the defeated villain make a last ditch effort to kill the protagonist (like a hidden blade or ankle gun) so the hero could justifiably finish them off. The issue with not killing them when they're running away depends on their intent. Suppose the bad guy has the McGuffin needed to harm more people?

[@irvanray1898]

What I never understand is how some people write a trigger-happy hero who spends their day brutally mowing down enemy henchmen and choose to spare the actual villain because "they don't deserve this" or "I'm better than the villain." as if we don't spend hours watching the supposed hero casually performing a genocide to some paid intern in the villain roster.

[@personman1148]

I personally love the stories where the hero ignores that and just kills the villain for example the first Dead pool movie with Francis.

[@youraveragescotsman7119]

They're already standing on a mountain of bodies. What's one more at that point?

[@blehh_mae]

and i never understand how people can write a character who is meant to do the right thing always and then proceeds to spare a terrorist because it makes them worse than them somehow (talking about batman and joker, and ig spiderman too but those are usually just powerful people or gangs who dont care about collateral damage instead of literally bombing a city just to get the hero's attention, but some prob still do that in some spiderman series)

[@techpriest6962]

It's just bad writing, because they want to re-use the villain later on instead of create a new one.

[@MojusPrime]

Optimus Prime has been waging war for MILLIONS of years. I don’t blame him for a second about killing decepticons. I would probably do the same if i was him. But atleast he only did it in protection of earth and humans.

[@tvo-k7j]

you look too socially compatible to know that much about filmmaking

[@savagebooks7482]

It's a condition

[@TheNamesFathom]

This is probably the best comment I’ve ever seen on this channel

[@donatodiniccolodibettobardi842]

Socially compatible? 🤔

[@AugustRx]

​@@donatodiniccolodibettobardi842Have witnessed gr*ss

[@bluebutterfly5062]

It's because he's so handsome

[@Nostripe361]

I always prefer a hero that is ready to kill but won't do it unless its necessary. Like shoot the guy about to shoot you but if you have him knocked out on the ground it is up to the courts to deal with them and decide if he should punished with the death penalty. The only moral part I am conflicted on is a villain who is too dangerous to let live; such as one who kills people with just their presence. then i feel it may be necessary to kill regardless if they are an immediate threat or not. I would also say you can make a hero that enjoys fighting and killing. The point is making sure that while they enjoy it, they can still have the strength to hold back and not use violence when it is morally wrong or would get in the way of the better goal of the hero and/or their allies.

[@EternityKingdomsHeadHoncho]

“Transformers was never serious before Michael Bay” *Beast Wars intensifies*

[@Vieyram]

One of the things I really like about Vash's character is how you can see the toll his pacifist approach takes on his own body. He would rather be injured than kill someone so his body is covered in scars.

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

Something similar has happened to Thorfinn as well in Vinland Saga but a much smaller scale.

[@jacobstaten2366]

Which makes it pretty silly to take the risk and more likely that he and innocent people will die. It's fun to fantasize about the ranger who can lasso a twister and shoot the trigger finger off of all the cowboys, but it's not realistic. There was a guy in my CCW class asking how to shoot the gun out of someone's hand. Even a professional trick shooter wouldn't do that. They would aim for center mass and keep shooting until the threat was stopped.

[@TheRunningJoker]

Violence used to be a natural reaction to lawful/evil. Civilization took that option away without offering a reliable alternative. The way I see it, we’re now living in a world without cautionary tales. A lot of the examples used were from wars, where villains are deemed enemy combatants. Civil action has to be set aside, or exhausted(rarely), prior to the hero’s violent actions. What does a hero look like when the villain can’t be reasoned with, prosecuted, or unseated?

[@rhashadcarter2051]

THISSSS!!!

[@negative6442]

Judge Dredd, that's who

[@ChewieTheGolem]

Excellent analysis. I personally find my favorite to be a Batman style character, where someone who refuses to kill exists in a land or world where killing is almost required to survive and succeed, still choosing against it.

[@LuisSierra42]

And some of the best stores involving Batman, actively challenge this rule, in particular, Under the Red Hood

[@daemoneko]

but then, it leads to the Batman/Joker connundrum how many lives could've Batman saved, if Joker didn't escape prison and kill so many people but at the same time, once Batman kills one villain, where does it end? when would the justification stop being "good enough" to kill the next reprihensible villain? IMO these questions don't have clear cut answers, and that leads to interesting storytelling

[@joshuaharris3039]

⁠@@LuisSierra42I really wish Jason was used more in the live action and animated series; he absolutely stole my whole damn universe in Under the Red Hood

[@theworstcatholic7247]

Personally he's one of my least favorites, it goes along with the concept that if he ended a life he'd just become a sociopathic mass petty criminal genocider if he ended the lives of the likes of Joker, which is a ludicrous position. So ludicrous that writers treat him like the man standing at the edge of crazy. Which ironically is the only way to justify him in a realistic setting because how utterly screwed up so many of his villains are. (It's also hilariously ironic since he's been shown to be okay with ending sentient aliens.) It's just a goofy sense of morality in the end, which works fine with less mature kids shows. If ending lives is a necessity in the world and they choose to not do it without major repercussions to show why it's a necessity then it comes as big mary sue energy. Which they unintentionally I imagine don't have that issue with Batsy as his villains repeatedly escape and keep building their body counts as the outcome. This is coming from someone who does enjoy Batman. But man is he the biggest target to point at how heroes that don't take villains out is goofy in serious settings. (It's even more ironic when you consider Superman is often involved in his stories and he does take out villains, on top of being considered the more moral individual by Bruce himself.)

[@Zerox_Z21]

If I punch Hitler in the face to 'make him stop' but beyond that just let him go, am I the good guy? That's Batman these days. I suppose Batman was actually more reasonable in his older, less serious incarnations? I haven't read them, but Adam West Batman with a Joker that gives him 'boners'? I doubt this Joker was portrayed as a mass murderer that ought to be executed. Batman would probably work a lot better if the justice/legal system he operated within meant he wasn't dealing with repeat offenders all the time. He's more justifiably bringing them to actual justice that way considering his tenuous vigilante status. As it is he's not really achieving anything by making the effort to abide by the letter of the law.

[@braulioalanis98]

ngl, Hugh’s rendition of Wolverine also fits in the Optimus Prime Archetype, guys is good with his people and protects humans as seen in The Wolverine when he kills Yakuza in order to protect Mariko, or him protecting X-23 and the other X-periment kids from Logan while killing the Reavers.

[@SNDWV99]

There's also not really any satisfying ways that you can have wolverine non lethal ly take down his enemies when one of his main abilities is that he has fucking knives in his hands.

[@darkhorsedouglas4789]

I feel like Cal's final fight in jedi survivor breaks this trope down really well. You go through the game killing stormtroopers without a second thought. Only to realize that's part of the darkside of the force building in Cal and that killing the final boss for revenge reasons might be the final straw. Leading to the superman neck snap sort of ending. Where surrender is offered to the villain but it ends with the choice of killing the villain or losing another person to the villain.

[@harlannguyen4048]

The most interesting thing to me is that Cal gets to keep his Dark Side mode in the post game, so perhaps he'll have to come to terms with it in the third installment.

[@theworstcatholic7247]

Personally this conundrum always felt silly to me, even as a kid, but I came from a military family. Any 'hero' or individual that is going out against opposing forces is going to need to go for the life subscription ender, otherwise you're just as likely to be alt f4'd. You don't put yourself at a disadvantage because it's not just your life at risk, it's everyone you're trying to help or save as well if you fail. It's also something almost everyone does have a line with so the argument is moot, it's just where you want it to be and to those that don't have said line, have likely never been in such situations or they would realize how foolish of a position it truly is. It feels like such an argument that only those who overthink things have a problem with. You're rarely ever (more likely never) going to get a purely painless, inconsequential life suplexing. Hell even serial struggle snugglers may have a kitten at home who they treat like a princess who will be put down when you put them down. If you're having the debate in your head if they need to put down than they likely they do. The question shouldn't be if they should be, it's if it will be worth it. Which I find a far more interesting moral conundrum. Should you hunt the vampire that owns an orphanage and a youngling a year, but saving more lives possibly in the extremely long run, but dooming the many in the short term along with any that would of been taken in and care of? How about ending the unlife of a liche who is keeping the undead of the countryside in check and ordered, rather than constantly rampaging across villages. Or the ever fun one, is ending the crime boss worth the dozens of minions? One of the reasons I enjoy the TW3 so much, it's one of the very few nuanced tales that actually legitimately brought nuance in my eyes in the arguments of your choices. What's your least favorite aspect of this style of story telling? One of my most hated tropes is the hero slaughtering their way through hordes of minions but sparing the villain as some sort of obviously faux moral superiority. Or heroes not ending villains who constantly break out of imprisonment, at that point you aren't "stopping them", you're just giving them a government paid vacation.

[@alphamineron]

For someone advocating killing, you sure are quite hesitant to using the “bad words”…

[@pn2294]

Even if the heroes did kill the villains, the villains would just resurrect Power Rangers is proof of that

[@theworstcatholic7247]

@@pn2294 I mean if that's the logic we're going by then there's even less of a reason to not end them and basically zero morality issues on top of it. I'm not disagreeing mind you. They absolutely would and it shows with every major character ending being taken back by some form of resurrection anyways. But that's more meta than story.

[@theworstcatholic7247]

@@alphamineron Certain words like to shadowban you on YT. It's more a contingency than anything. It's not even all curse words either, just the term pre-adult can do it to you for whatever reason. Also just because one understands things like ending life at times being necessary, doesn't mean they have to be uncouth.

[@theworstcatholic7247]

@@pn2294 Who, batman? No he didn't, he had personal reasons, not pragmatic. Though that depends on the version. Some it's just because he's a psycho in a bat suit who can't handle the nuance of ending the likes of the joker vs a petty thief, others he's just your basic story book hero who thinks all ending is wrong because story. I wouldn't argue batsy's sanity is a pragmatic reason. Unless you're talking of something else to which I apologize and you'll need to clarify.

[@nova_zar]

Yup this is why I love Prime, he's one of the best most fun fictional characters put to the big screen.

[@patrickholt8782]

One of the better no Kill rules was in Full Metal Alchemist. With the main character saying “no one should have to pay for our mistakes.”

[@Dricon1997]

It's so wonderful to see how much Transformers of the Bay verse have been shittalked for years! And now it's appreciated for what it had (still understanding the bad contents of each movie). They had something really cool and the fighting was definitely one of them. All that epic action

[@anotherrandomguy8871]

Yeah this is one of the few videos that doesn’t talk about the bay movies just to talk shit about the movies or even it’s fans.

[@ImTakingYouToFlavorTown]

I admit I haven't seen them in years, and a marathon might be needed, but I remember really liking them, all of them, and I thought that Last Knight or whatever it's called was a great progression for the series. Also, I've seen Bumble Bee and Rise of Beasts, and I didn't care much for either of them, the most exciting part was the ending scene for ROB setting up that one thing that I'm not going to say because the movie isn't that old.

[@langletprolet8378]

I wouldn't say this was "appreciating" the bayverse lol, it's just observing the Optimus Prime character and how Bay got lucky that he can use Optimus that way. The movies deserve to be shittalked. The action sandwiched between too many awful and boring human scenes. The Transformers themselves don't get the spotlight they deserved despite being the titular race, it's all about the awful hoomans in these movies.

[@LoganLS0]

Optimus became unhinged after he died. I probably would too.

[@skybytebytes]

I remember at the end of dark of the moon when I was 12 in the theater with my dad. He literally said out loud “Jesus Christ” when optimus killed megatron with one arm and an axe

[@deriznohappehquite]

Sentinel: No Optimus! Think about the Geneva Convention! Optimus: lol.

[@Stormfin]

I'm surprised you didn't bring up Shockwave getting Merc'd like he did. And I swear, I remember the Wreckers eating that pilot when they entered Chicago, like the war had finally descended into outright barbarism.

[@RommelStorm]

Nothing speaks violence more than Optimus ripping your face off, punching the All Spark out of your chest, and crushing it in front of you. Dude was so brutal that Sentinel practically got a walk in the park demise. 💀

[@revan0890]

In Batman:TAS the writers couldn't kill a characters because they were alive, so each time there was a Scarface episode, they brutally "killed" the doll. Each subsequent appearance, Scarface met with a more brutal demise.

[@SHADOWEMPERORB127]

The oil you were talking about is Energon, it’s basically the blood for Cybertronians and it’s also one of the main reasons the war started. In some continuities Cybertron is losing Energon and different cities keep taking it for each other. Energon In a Cybertronian’s body (in the Bay films at least) is three different colours all coming out for different reasons, Red Energon (the Energon pouring out of Megatron’s body when he gets killed and the Energon the dreads bleed when Ironhide rams into them) that is in the joints so if you get your leg cut off at the knee red Energon will pour out, Blue and Green Energon are basically the main ones in a cybertronian body and spilling out depending on the wound. Ik this is a very dumb thing to be ranting about but Cybertronians aren’t robots, they’re obviously sentient beings and people compare them to robots cuz that’s the closest thing we can compare them to. Also when Sentinel dies he’s actually blind because of what Megs did to him, you can see that when he’s on the ground he’s trying to figure out where everything is and feel around but when he finds out where Optimus is, it’s too late for him so have fun knowing that Optimus shot and killed a disabled person also another thing is when Grindor (the guy in the forest battle who gets his face and head ripped apart) says “No Prime please” and the screaming NOOOOO as his head gets ripped apart also the Named Decepticons aren’t really henchmen they’re more like genocidal maniacs who enjoy killing for no reason at all but the. Vehicons (apart from Steve and Todd) and the Decepticon protoforms (a Protoform is a Cybertronian before they have a proper Cybertronian vehicle mode) are the mindless henchmen

[@bendoucet8641]

In writing my own heroes (superheroes in particular) , I always go by a specific rule when determining how much killing/violence is too much. Would a bystander trust that hero after seeing them do that?

[@hannahmetzger4880]

Ooohhh, that's genius, I'm using that. If you don't mind, that is. 😂😂.

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

This is quite sensible advice.

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

Well said, and a great point. Would Spider-man really be a "friendly neighborhood superhero" if the people in queens and in NYC saw him kill a man with his barehands or hang them with his webs? Would kids really want to inspire to be like him or be scared of him?

[@WhoTFMadeThisChange]

And on that note, why would that bystander matter when the cause is just? More often than not, there have been lies and slanders being created for heroes, real life and fiction. We can’t just consider every person’s words since they could just be another bad actor.

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

@@WhoTFMadeThisChange it's a bad image and a bad look, it's one thing if you have to kill to save someone's life, it's another to kill BRUTALLY. Would you really want to be anywhere NEAR superman if he tore out someone's heart with blood splattering everywhere just to stop a purse snatcher? Would you want children to see superman or ANY hero do that? I know I wouldn't. It's one thing to kill them but there's a level of brutality that should be avoided for public image. And lol what's with this "bAd AcToR" nonsense you're saying right now? What? No one is EVERY acting at all.

[@boshwa20]

It definitely would've confused me as a kid if Prime spared Megatron after all the shit he did

[@BluPhoenix15]

Heroic bloodshed has been a favorite of mine for a long time. I think it's far more interesting and realistic.

[@TerranPlanetaryDefenseForce]

A hero that does not kill, will never solve the problem or actually save people. They just delay doom.

[@DemianCorvus]

I love that half the video was a love letter for Optimus Prime

[@MaidenlessScrub]

For me, fighting to suppress instead of straight up killing is a luxury of those with immense strength. Characters who lack power cannot afford to show their enemies mercy because that will get themselves killed.

[@tomrusson6126]

Really, really well done. This was an almost absurdly succinct take on a complex idea. I would love a longer take and breakdown of the ideas and tropes involved. Well done man! And yes, Prime can do no wrong.

[@RacingSnails64]

I'm fine with most of Optimus's kills, but the Sentinel kill felt extremely dirty. Sentinel's begging getting cut off just colors the whole scene (and Optimus) so poorly.

[@savagebooks7482]

Thanks so much for the support!

[@tomrusson6126]

@@RacingSnails64 I think it humanises Prime. Sentinel had dishonoured everything that he had sworn to uphold and the whole species. I think it was justified. Harsh, absolutely, but justified.

[@tristanescure7384]

In the case of Eddard Stark, I don't think the narrative portrays his execution of the night's watchman as justified. He makes the mistake of prioritizing southern politics over the true threat in the north and ends up paying with his life in the same way he took it. His only redeeming quality in this senario is that he recognizes that he should be the one holding the sword because it's his moral responsability to carry. But he also compromises that rule when he kills Lady on Robert's orders so really Eddard's story uses killings as failures in his moral jugment.

[@obi-onekenerdi]

I think Iron Man and especially Cap’s kill counts are thought about differently since they’re casualties of war. Cap is literally fighting in the biggest war in history, so it makes sense. I always assumed, even in the cheesy 1940s comic days that he was also killing Nazis they just never outright showed it.

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

Literally EVERYONE in the avengers kill except for Spider-man and Daredevil, that's it.

[@TornaitSuperBird]

@@Gadget-WalkmenI wonder if all of the spines that Widow has snapped the necks of could reach the height of the Empire State Building.

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

@@TornaitSuperBird probably.

[@obi-onekenerdi]

@@TornaitSuperBird well she was an assassin before she was a spy anyway..and was introduced as a villain. So all of her occupations have basically had eliminating targets as part of the job description.

[@omegaraver7399]

Considering the fact that sentinel killed one of Optimus’s closest friends in the most agonizing way possible, several humans, would enslave the entirety of the human race, and had a part in the destruction of Chicago. I personally think Optimus Prime was justified in killing him.

[@immortaljanus]

After a recent readthrough of my WIP novel, I realized that the main character not only doesn't kill ("on screen"), he doesn't even physically injure anyone (again, "on screen"). This wasn't planned but it's an interesting situation, considering he's considered as the most virtuous and moral of all my characters. He's a trickster character, relying on stealth and deception to get what he wants to achieve. I went through all the planned stories I have for this character and turns out he only kills after the enemy has snuck in and executed a mass assassination of everyone in the current power structure. That puts him in the "the gloves are off" mode. It also promotes him to the height of the new power structure where he's now forced to make morally grey choices.

[@RacingSnails64]

I'm fine with heroes needing to kill, but I hate when they *enjoy* their killing. It feels as antithetical to heroism as you can possibly get.

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@RacingSnails64 Antiheroes who go after the villains who are just low life monsters who are one dimensional and may not deserve it as much as the real pure evil villains the good moral heroes go after

[@Gadget-Walkmen]

if they're an anti-hero, than it's ok.

[@rhashadcarter2051]

@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674anti heros are often more based and have more layers the heroes seem one dimensional to me.

[@rhashadcarter2051]

also why can’t they enjoy putting them down? you ever enjoy to see someone see justice ?

[@Seasonal-Shadow_4674]

@@rhashadcarter2051 that’s not what I’m talking about

[@hammer1349]

In the last season of Samurai Jack, we see a much more worn down Jack, similar to that of prime. He he ruthless but efficient and simply moves on when the task is done. He has no choice to kill the daughters of Aku because they are trying to kill him, as he says himself their deaths were a result of their choices, not so much his. However later in the season we see jack facing off against what jack believes are small creatures trying to tear him apart. When he is freed from the hallucination and discovers that he may well have just killed a bunch of innocent children - he breaks. He seeks to end his own life out of shame and disgrace. Despite his years surrounded by endless evil and corruption, he still fought with honour and was willing to end it all upon straying from that path

[@Delmworks]

To be honest the thing that bothers me about the whole kill/don’t kill dictomy was that it doesn’t express how hard it is to immobilize somone without causing their death. There are good reason tasers are called “less lethal” and not Non-lethal weapons.

[@jacobstaten2366]

Look at all of the choke holds and submission techniques that used to be acceptable but are now illegal because someone died when the person using the hold was desperately trying not to hurt the target.

[@Delmworks]

@@jacobstaten2366 Yes! Exactly!

[@Lilyanna08]

My favourite approach to killing is from Code Geass. Main character's mindset can be narrowd to 3 quotes: - "The only ones who should kill, are those who are prepared to be killed." - "When there is evil in this world that justice cannot defeat, would you taint your hands with evil to defeat evil? Or would you remain steadfast and righteous even if it means surrendering to evil?" - "Before creation there must be destruction. If my soul stands in the way, then I’ll toss it aside. Yes, I have no choice but to move forward." I simply love Lelouch

[@AndreNitroX]

It says a lot about humanity when a heroic character that kills is seen as realistic. I will admit I do not take a movie or show seriously until I see some death involved.

[@jacobstaten2366]

I took a CCW class and one guy was asking the instructor how to shoot the weapon out of an attacker's hand. He tried to respectfully explain why that would be an unrealistic and dangerous idea.

[@AndreNitroX]

cool@@jacobstaten2366

[@dfolz1101]

No one asked but the punisher is HANDEDLY my favorite hero that kills. (Specifically the punisher: max garth ennis run). He has virtually no depth and is effectively a terminator for criminals. Idk why exactly I love it so much.

[@MintTea2005]

People absolutely do not like how Optimus is portrayed, not even Peter Cullen (Optimus's VA). Micheal Bay portrayed him like a fucking psycho.

[@welshcrusade1562]

Most of Hugh Jackman's Wolverine action scenes depict him just running through a crowd, mercilessly killing every single one of them. And we cheer

[@athomps14at]

Big red Murderbot make brain go BRRRRR. Great video, this is why the transformers movies are some of my favorites. I don't need a deep story for every film, sometimes I just want to watch the big robot kick the other big robots ass and look like they are enjoying themselves 😂

[@rigatonipasta]

I would love for you to do a video about how Bayverse Optimus betrays everything Peter Cullen believes in

[@GenericProtagonist118]

Villain: "How many people have you killed today, huh?" "Hero": "Like.... Two." Villain: "Ha, Two!? I saw you wipe out hundreds of my men just now!" "Hero": "Oh yeah I rocked them a bit but their no worse then if they were in a bad bike accident. Others I hit hard enough to make them realize that fighting me at all is pointless..." Villain: "Then how about those two men?" "Hero": I don't know, they seemed more inclined on wanting to kill me then they were on wanting to protect you."

[@brycecole23]

I think it would have served well to speak on the punisher and the conflict he causes among the other heros by murdering the absolute shit out of everyone

[@1IGG]

Punisher is not a hero, though. Something between a villain protagonist and an anti-hero.

[@brycecole23]

@@1IGG I think that's the debate to be had. Id say he is a hero but others would disagree since he kills. There's the discussion

[@princeoftech7473]

Ive always felt that the singular most defining trait of a hero is a person who is able and/or willing to DEFY their insti ncts or urges for the betterment of others. Thats why i dont really consider soldiers to be heroes, although the work that active combatants do is very taxing and i acknowledge that. To me, what makes Optimus not just a soldier and a leader, but a HERO, is the fact that he has defied and resisted the urge to shake off his compassion for others. Even in the face of losing many friends and even his home to people who are relentless and unwilling to choose a better path, Prime still holds on to his compassion, and exercises it whenever he can, even against his enemies. Its why hes so vocal to the Decepticons, because he would rather fight with words and reason than with weapons, but he is not unprepared for a fight if it comes to it.

[@Salamandra40k]

I always, even as a kid (or a teen, I guess), came to understand that characters like Optimus are able to and really SHOULD kill the bad guys because they are *specifically* warriors. They are soldiers who have fought genuine war against bad guys who are genuinely still trying to fight the same kinds of war. There is no way to stop the bad guys other than to kill them, and so if you have to do it, go ahead and get accustomed to killing your enemies. They wouldn't hesitate to kill you for their own ideologies in return. This is really sort of different from other "heros" because a soldier, a warrior; their job is not necessarily to uphold justice, and not necessarily to be morally or ethically correct- their job is to fight. I feel like Metal Gear has touched on these ideas, in some kind of way. Big Boss IS a morally good character, and fights for the "right" cause (at least at the beginning), but his main goal is to create a world where soldiers, warriors, people who's job it is to kill other people, are not abused and exploited by individuals or groups who are seeking to do bad, or throw away the lives of said soldiers for their own selfish goals that do not align with the soldiers ideologies. Short story long, Optimus is a soldier who just happens to hold heroic ideologies, such as justice and protection of the innocent...but do not forget that his first job is that of a soldier. A warrior. Someone who is employed to kill others.

[@kemsat-n6h]

I think part of it is that, when we’re little, we think of a hero as something objective & just, but when we grow up we start thinking of a hero as something on our side that does, for us, the dirty work we cannot do for ourselves.

[@onetomeplz5825]

Me watching the protagonist kill 36297 people only to say “if I killed you I would be no better than you” to the main bad guy

[@mattfarr137]

I think on a moral level, killing evil people to save innocent people is a perfectly good trade off

[@fantasysherlockholmes]

One of my favourite comic series' is DC's infinite crisis event, and part of that included maxwell lord manipulating superman into thinking that darkseid is invading people so superman fights the darkseid delusion which endangers peoples lives and it ends with wonder woman killing lord. A chunk of the comic then deals with her arrest and various characters debate the morality of her executing lord. Highly recommend checking it out

[@the_milkgod9134]

The Stormlight archive delves into this a lot with one of its main characters Kaladin Stormblessed

[@alcidesbeyond]

Gohan/Cell is a good case study for this.

[@theknightskyisi]

I finished reading the Mistborn trilogy, and Vin is a heroine who is really really good at killing, which makes for an interesting flavour of story. The fact that she sometimes spares henchmen, allies with truly good people, and is capable of making nigh-impossible sacrifices very decisively is what makes her a hero (even though she really doesn't see herself that way). One of her key quotes in book 2 is "I'm not a good person or a bad person, I'm just here to kill things."

[@braydenpage1808]

Another great example of the hero that kills is Joel in The Last Of Us. He ruthlessly murders Humans that are nust part of the villains group. In the finaly, Joel is slaughtering enemy soldiers to get to Ellie. One soldier put his weapon on the floor and raises his hands in surrender. Joel giving none, guns him down. And yet we root for Joel because no matter how many zombies or Humans he indiscriminately kills, he's doing it so he and Ellie can survive in a world that delt them a bad hand.

[@jacobstaten2366]

The issue is that he put one girl's life before all of humanity.

[@braydenpage1808]

@@jacobstaten2366 Humanity was basically horrible at this point. The only people that didn't try to kill him are his brother's town. Everyone else were so evil I so think they were worth saving.

[@jacobstaten2366]

@@braydenpage1808 that's a blanket statement condemning an entire planet of individuals for the life of one because he ran into a few bad people who were driven to it from the drive to survive in an incredibly hostile environment. It's not like people were mowing each other down in droves before the plague.

[@WhiteManOnCampus]

@@jacobstaten2366 This may be a month late, but there was likely dissent in the writers' room, as well as the whole thing being based on incompetence and nobody at Naughty Dog doing a hint of research: there's no such thing as a vaccine for a fungal infection. It doesn't work. During the final mission, when Joel is killing his way through the facility, you can find audio and text logs that discuss how many immune kids they've killed in failed attempts to make a cure, rather than just let the immune kids breed. So, y'know, more immune people can be born? So, unless we accept that the writing staff were imbeciles, the story as presented tells us that the Fireflies have no idea what they're doing and their desperation for a cure, to be the great heroes who healed the world, is killing the world's actual hope. Joel is entirely justified in saving Ellie, and certain expedient measures may be morally-questionable but have not only the fear and anger of a surrogate father but the actual backing of stopping fools from killing someone who could potentially have kids and save the world.

[@jacobstaten2366]

@@WhiteManOnCampus haven't succeeded doesn't mean can't succeed. There has to be a reason they're immune and that can be determined. It's interesting that only children seem to be immune.

[@dinoblacklane1640]

"One side kill, the other doesnt" You know, I want a story that has the villians refusing to kill, but has the hero's killing a lot of everything

[@ToaOnichu]

One possible way to do this is that the heroes would give you a mercifully quick death; the villains would make you wish you were dead.

[@jacobstaten2366]

You mean like "Mary Kills People?" She's a hospice nurse that assists people's suicides while the authorities would call it murder. I could see a story like this where the bad guys maime and cripple when killing would be more merciful.

[@derek4044]

I think part of the reason I appreciate heroes who kill (even zealously and borderline joyously) is becquse it invites an honest discussion about what a hero would actually look like in these action/adventure formats. War, and the battles that take place in fiction to simulate it, is hard. Not just on a physical level, but on a moral level. You're not going to survive if you act like youre above killing your enemies. That is, of course, subject to the 99% rule. Perhaps a hero is so exceptionally gifted in the art of heroism that they can do it while avoiding death. That's where heroes like Batman or Spiderman come in. But in their cases, it becomes hard to honor the "no kill rule" in a real and logical way while still obeying the real #1 rule of fiction. Do cool stuff. Which creates the problem of: "He's not dead. He's just sleeping." Because we still must (and want to) do cool shit. But the spectrum of cool behavior that's perimetted is dramatically narrowed in a paradigm where killing is inherently immoral. Making a hero who kills both convenient and thematically rational.

[@etazeta674]

I remember a scene from the second to last book in the Legacy of the Force book series of Star Wars Legends that kinda ties into this: Luke and his son Ben are talking after Ben was looking into the possibility that his Cousin Jacen (the original and better Kylo Ren) killed Ben's mother (real happy family, the Skywalker clan, Amirite?) And how as a former cop, he wants to do this right. Upon hearing this Luke breaks down and compliments Ben on being so decent, followed by a confession: Luke does indeed feel guilty for blowing up the Death Star, and pretty much every other Imp he killed during the Galactic Civil War because he knows now most of them weren't evil. Many were either forced or volunteered to enlist simply because they thought they were doing the right thing, and he then follows this up by saying something along the lines of "(Ben is) going to turn out much better than me". I feel another way to handle it is have the good guy start off killing and then later on turn around and ask themselves if they were in the right

[@Yamsthenills]

Bayverse Optimus is actually a pretty textbook story: U.S. government takes interest in an ongoing conflict and the leader of the side working with the CIA gradually becomes an unrestrained and celebrated monster, lol

[@orionriftclan2727]

He wasn't necessary a monster, he was a soldier who got got a bit to blood thirsty

[@Yamsthenills]

@@orionriftclan2727 Matter of perspective, I guess. People have said that very thing about both heroes and war crimes perpetrators throughout history.

[@jimijenkins2548]

@@orionriftclan2727 Jonas Savimbi

[@anotherrandomguy8871]

Im both a Bayverse fan and a Batman fan, so I get whiplash between “Omg the hero is too violent and is a awful killer who enjoys killing and making threats against mass murder robots” to “Omg why doesn’t the main hero just kill the mass murdering clown”, and then back to the other side for Batman as we go back to “omg the hero is too violent beating on a poor mentally sick goon that literally murders people”. Then with ROTB Optimus we get both of those people complaining but I’ve more so seen people praise violent rotb Optimus Prime because his kid-appeal friend was killed, so only then it’s acceptable to be violent toward mass murders and make violent threats to the villains who are about to let their master eat a planet. Edit: I suck at grammar even after editing the comment more than once.

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

It’s good enough

[@LIGHTBL0X]

The appropriate title is Average Bayverse Optimus Prime and how he treats bad guys

[@elchinoguerito8915]

I wanna see a story where a protagonist and Antagonist are opposed to killing as a guest option but do so in order for the sake of their goals; I.e follow through a plan, or stopping someone who refuses to stop in their pursuit.

[@assassinscreedislife7636]

Really great video essay. Loved all the clips you included form all sorts of things. Mass effect scene was unexpected but welcome. And I absolutely love Optimus Prime, but yeah, his savagery is nearly unmatched. It is crazy though that for him, the decepticons are real people whose heads he has to rip off to protect the people he loves and the innocents of the world. He’s truly inspirational

[@SirGrimLockSmithVIII]

15:44 Should probably add the caveat that Bay Optimus's trigger-happy character only appealed to general audiences who probably didn't know any better. Long-time fans of the Transformers franchise actually found this interpretation of Optimus disturbing and shameful, with Peter Cullen, the voice of Optimus since the 1980s, also expressing extreme discomfort toward a lot of his dialogue in later interviewers.

[@leshiy_nd]

{Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen} Bumblebee: [tearing of cat's spine and beating an enemy with it] Me: Wow! Poor Ravage... But wow!

[@lightningmonky7674]

Always happy to see Michael bays transformers getting loved thanks for the video! Very informative as well, subscribed 🔥

[@savagebooks7482]

Thanks for the support!

[@everyonethinksyoureadeathm5773]

Its funny because that personal code of no kill often bites the hero in the ass. Case in point Red Hood is correct that the only way to stop a crimal whose show disreguard for human life is to snuff them out quickly. The same thing with Vegeta who when presented with a threat has no qualms of killing if it means eliminating a threat. The same can be said about Goku, although kind-hearted hes not above killing someone if it means saving thousands. He does spare his foes a bit too much but the ones who deserve death often get it. However Batman by allowing the Joker to run around freely instead of snapping his neck after he proves himself irredeemable has allowed untold victims including his own sidekick.

[@Canon1791]

This is something I've noticed too. The shift from "Heroes are meant to inspire a better way" to "heroes are just like us". I thought this particularly obvious when DC couldn't figure out how to make the comic book superman "relatable enough for the big screen" showing their complete lack of understanding for the purpose of the character: to inspire humanity to be better. To be a figure to look up to. I'm not saying one way is better than the other, but the idea that "good = boring" in a character is incredibly short sighted.

[@MasterZhang]

Regarding Ooptimus Prime, I think there's a overall sense of "fairness" that comes into play here. After years if not decades of hand-wringing over whether killing is right or wrong, there's definitely a perception that it's "unfair" that the bad guys seemingly get to kill over and over again, and the good guys are seemingly not allowed to even just kill them back in return. As such, Optimus Prime killing and even revelling in his kills results in catharsis for many viewers, as they finally see someone on the screen do what they always thought was the right thing to do. Same reason why people other than bad cops like Punisher, or why people generally liked that scene where Iron Man kills all the terrorists with extreme prejudice. Moreover, the hangup on heroes that kill does also seem like a very Euro/West-centric concern, as comparatively much fewer Eastern works whether that's anime, manga, wuxia, etc have that same effect. As I often like writing on Facebook nerd groups: The Virgin comic book hero: noooo i can't kill the bad guy that would make me just as bad as the bad guy The Chad wuxia protagonist: there's a bad guy, I better learn more kung fu so I can kill his evildoing ass

[@stanner601]

It seems like a result of life being relatively safer in modern times. People don't have to fight to survive against on a regular basis. Most people don't know what it's like to have someone threaten their life or the lives of their loved ones. It makes it easy to develop a sense of moral superiority to people that do have to get their hands dirty. Personally I don't understand how anyone can be confused about Optimus killing Decepticons. He's been fighting a war for millions of years and his enemies are brutal killers with no moral boundaries. In the first 3 movies alone Decepticons planned to kill all humans on the planet, destroy the sun, and in the enslave the human population for labor. Why wouldn't he kill them? Why wouldn't he hate them?

[@MasterZhang]

@@stanner601 Eh, I'd argue it's not that life being relatively safer in modern times causes people to look down on those who get their hands "dirty" due to not knowing what it's life to be threatened, but rather that the relative safety of modern life causing people to forget how little life can actually be worth once you take away the context that informs our (really, Western Enlightenment-inspired) current sense of ethics. Our sense of right and wrong is predicated on an assumption that people who break the social contract can generally be expected to be apprehended and brought to justice, even if sometimes it takes very long, and when it doesn't happen, we accept that as the cost of having a justice system that also protects the rights of the accused. None of which applies to the case of a superviillain who's right in the middle of blowing up the city center and is quite adamant about refusing to stop unless someone kills them. As for Optimus Prime, while I agree that most cases of "lol Optimus is a war criminal" is just a case of ignorant children equating "way of killing the enemy that looks messy" with "war crime", I would also argue that writing him as personally hating Decepticons to the extent of relishing their death and dismemberment isn't quite consistent with how he's generally been portrayed, either. Given the history of the character, it should be a matter of he doesn't like that he has to kill them, but the perceived brutality is only because Cybertronians are so durable and able to be repaired to full strength that the only way to reliably put them down is overkill.

[@xanious3759]

@@MasterZhang I mean you see a lot of deceptions in bayverse die super quickly and efficiently and optimus has done quick and efficient kills before. For me the problem is less the killing and more "jesus christ why are you ripping his face in half just pierce his spark its faster"

[@TornaitSuperBird]

@@xanious3759And here goes the morality part: A hero can kill and be morally justified, sure, but what about their methods of killing? Optimus can swiftly and effectively dispatch his enemies, but it seemed like for the most "evil" of them (the Fallen, Sentinel, and Megatron [in any shape or form]), the more brutal and drawn-out the the death is, as if in direct proportion to their deeds. Should a hero that kills grant his enemies the mercy of a quick, efficient death, or should he try to inflict as much pain as possible on the ones that are the most evil?

[@blouburkette]

+10 points for Red Letter Media reference. Absolutely perfect. Great video, man!

[@savagebooks7482]

Thanks for the support!

[@anotherrandomguy8871]

This is almost unrelated but I find it funny how in most on-screen iterations of TMNT the turtles never kill despite some of them having lethal weapons (character-wise it makes sense for Leo not to kill but still). This is probably because the turtles are children so it would be pretty dark to have them kill. This ties back to your point about substituting killing people by replacing humans with robots since in the 2012 show of TMNT they mostly killed monsters and robots and it’s funny because even Mikey and DonI in that show have hidden blades in their weapons to make their weapons more lethal. Meanwhile I hear that in certain TMNT comics, the main characters are more brutal and do kill and or get killed.

[@koboldwizard]

I thought that the whole point of the turtles weapons were that they were defensive as the main point, and only Leo having an actual killing weapon because only the leader must know when it is necessary to take a life

[@anotherrandomguy8871]

@@koboldwizard oh really? I didn’t know that. I mean I have heard before that Ralph’s weapons are actually only for self defense and cannot seriously harm anyone, but I didn’t believe it since Ralph seems like the type of guy who would use a sharp weapon to kill. Anyways if that’s the actual point of why they don’t kill yet Leo has a deadly weapon than I like it. Leo is exactly the type who knows how to be defensive with a sword without killing you, and wouldn’t want to do so, but also knows when to get rid of a major threat that is too dangerous.

[@raidenwesterman4479]

Netflix's punisher in the daredevil show really sent this point home too

[@ivanbluecool]

Heroes who end lives is always a tight rope to walk as it shouldn't be the first option as batman and spiderman show time and time again. Especially when you can fall off immediately and become a mass murderer at the snap with injustice superman needing to justify every action and flash straight destorying his entire argument on "what is justified" as each death can easily drop your moral and value of life End a criminal who kills. End one who abuses people. End one who steals. End one who breaks rules. It's a slightly slope

[@RacingSnails64]

Exactly.

[@Indigo_1001]

Something I find funny is that people say that Spider-man and Batman should kill when it’s the fact that they DONT kill that made both these characters have such a iconic rouges gallery. What famous villain does The Punisher and Deadpool have, to the point that they made movies out of them… Batman in BvS came off as a actual hypocrite because he kills random thugs but not Lex? Not Joker or Harley Quinn? Not Deadshot and not any of the living villains of that universe?

[@ivanbluecool]

@@Indigo_1001 i don't think anyone likes that batman. His logic is flawed. Blames superman without thinking of zod and co and such Reminds me of irl people who blame the ones who stop the problem rather than the people who keep causing it. That only breeds more violence when villains are seen as heroes

[@wingsoffreedom3589]

No that entire game is a contrived strawman. Superman didn't become evil because he killed joker he became evil because never permanently killing these psychotic villains lead to him killing his own wife and child by accident and then the death of and destruction of all of metropilis. That chaos and failure lead to his fascistic government the killing joker was never the problem had he spared him there is still every reason to believe he would have still become a tyrant whether he let the villains live or not. As for your slippery slope argument that's more of a reason to have a code not leave it up to a whim on who deserves to die. My personal standards is quite simply a residivism argument if you capture the villain and can contain him do so and let the authorities handle it. However if said villains show a pattern of escaping and killing more people and you notice this pattern and don't break it you are now passively responsible alongside the failed government for failing to contain the threat therefore end them immediately. A state that fails to do it's job no longer deserves to have it's authority and monopoly on violence respected. Gotham has long since lost the right to say it's up to the judge and system to decide when that very justice system has failed to protect thousands of people from 1 man the joker over and over again.

[@vewseryt7297]

The idea that someone who kill a serial muderer will end up killing someone who kill is insane. It's just stupid

[@thomasffrench3639]

Then you have Mobile Suit Gundam where a show made for kids where a 15 year old kid becomes a murder machine for a uncaring government against sympathetic antagonists and has to grapple with the horrors of war and trauma.

[@forsagebone]

Optimus Prime, going for the head years before Thor did.

[@savagebooks7482]

lol

[@Creedofdamage]

I didn’t think we’d get another video so soon. I love this channel!!!

[@savagebooks7482]

Thank you for the support!

[@RubyXIII]

erens speech gives me goosebumps literally every time i hear it