SBC TRI-POWER INTAKE & CAM TIMING

[@tedgay8427]

Richard, why not do a deep dive on cam timing? Dual pattern vs. single pattern. Narrow LSA vs wide. And test the Vizard 128 theory.

[@michaelblacktree]

That would be awesome!

[@rustysausage69]

he has multiple vids about LSA

[@davidreed6070]

What is the Vizard 128 theory?

[@tedgay8427]

@@davidreed6070 Google for details, but in short it is a rule of thumb for choosing the right lobe separation angle for a cam based on a few factors. Along with choosing duration based on overlap it is supposed to produce a better spec for the engine than just choosing an off the shelf grind. It is primarily designed for SBC engines according to David vizard.

[@richardholdener1727]

I like Dave and all his hard work-but these formulas are unfortunately not universal

[@francfurian8215]

I always loved the look of the tri power setup, I had one on my 340ci Mopar. Cheers😊

[@angelovasilikos7980]

Definitely feel that with today’s aftermarket parts and technology you can get great HP, TQ and looks for your motor.

[@baby-sharkgto4902]

.....all without degree-ing the cam, too.

[@CarsandCats]

Back in my early hot rodding days in the 80's, I had a 355sbc that I installed an Isky 280 cam in. I believe it was .480 lift single pattern and going in a 4-speed '72 RS/SS Camaro. I remember thinking my cam choice was too big as I was stabbing it in, and so I advanced it 4 degrees. Maybe just dumb luck, but it flat worked and the thing STILL pulled to 7,000 rpm and had an amazingly wide power band. So to sum things up, SOMETIMES when you have a too-big cam you can bandaid it by installing it advanced.

[@kennethpowers8995]

Did you degree the cam or just pick an amount and advance?

[@watrousmark401]

The 440 six pack was "rated" at 390, 15 over the four barrel 440. That was a gross number, SAE net was about 335. Tom Hoover, the engineer responsible for the 426 hemi basically said that it was mostly marketing, but impressive to see.

[@Lagrange1186]

What about dual 4 barrel manifolds? When do they offer an advantage? Tunnel rams are always the answer for best n/a power but what if you want it to stay under the hood and not have a huge cowl blocking your view... are low rise dual 4 barrels ever they answer? Do they give you the advantage of individual cylinder tuning? Come on Richard I know you have some answers! Thanks for the priceless information and we need more happy hour time!

[@richardholdener1727]

low-ram, dual quad intakes have not shown to be the equal of tunnel rams

[@jimmiller4667]

Richard Holdener I ran a f28 2 4bbl edelbrock intake on a 325hp 302. With progressive linkage running on the primaries of the back carb, (625 comp series afb's) I got 25mpg in a 83 mustang. On the track it averaged 4.5mpg, lol. But the SOUND! Still have that intake sitting in the garage..someday I'll run it again.

[@Lagrange1186]

@@richardholdener1727 but are they worse or better than a single or dual plane 4 barrel intake? Or do they bridge the gap?

[@themrjones]

This channel is ABSOLUTELY amazing. The shear amount of knowledge is changing the game. Gap those rings FTW. Springs. Boost weeeeeeeeeeeeee. Cam, chop chop chop.

[@EricErnst]

The dual plane version is the closest I've seen to my na setup. It seems that comp cams was pretty close on their estimate. I have a xfi252hr cam and good heads and an air-gap intake. Comp estimated 406hp@5500 and 463ft-lbs@3500rpms. Cam is 252/264 adv. 202/212@.050" .550"/.546". It's in a 3/4 ton truck so I wanted plenty of low end torque.. while still improving top end significantly over the stock 190hp rating. 163ft/lbs and 216hp over stock was a nice power bump. Most dyno tests that I've seen don't have that much low end torque from a 350. I was beginning to doubt the Camquest software's estimate. Your xe258hr is only 6 degrees bigger but lower peak lift. Mine has .070"/.059", or 12-15% more lift. I know you don't usually use cams this small. Why would you, when it's not taxing the head flow. Great video. A buddy really wants to put a tripower on his car. I told him that tuning 3 carbs will be a nightmare. I just saw a video from freiburger and dulcich and brule about 4" open exhaust. It seems that in a supercharged application, length of exhaust doesn't matter much. I'm running 4" open single exhaust on a centrifugal supercharger. Around 8psi. Keep the kickass content coming Rich. We love it. Big bang, other guys, ford, Chevy, Mopar, import, turbo, roots, centrifugal, nitrous. we love it all.

[@baby-sharkgto4902]

This is all I get when trying to use the Camquest app on Comps website: Thank you for your interest in CamQuest by COMP Cams®. The CamQuest application is currently offline for maintenance and updating. However, we have a variety of other channels to provide you with a personalized cam recommendation from one of our knowledgeable, highly trained and experienced technicians. It's been like this for years. One slow day at work I went online and was emailing back and forth with one of their experts.... it turned in to 2 days of emails and on the 3rd day I quit replying. It was a ridiculous process trying to get helpful information via email. I probably would have had better success if I had called them though.

[@richardholdener1727]

the 463 lb-ft seems generous

[@EricErnst]

I know it seems generous, but it's only 14lb-ft more than this zz4 350 short block. I've heard the Camquest software is optimistic. This engine makes 449lb-ft and you know these heads flow way more air past .480" lift.

[@joe-hp4nk]

If you can find a Barry grant inline 4 barrel, a follow up of Ack Miller's inline 4 barrel from back in the 60's, that would be an interesting comparison.

[@deanstevenson6527]

joe : Hey Joe...Mr Jeremy Smith's 12 bbl comment way below, A few hours ago.... Aktron Reference for you Sir. 4" bore, 3.5 inch stroker crank SBC in 1959 and six 2bbl 97s.

[@joe-hp4nk]

Set the cam straight up, that's what it's design for. The best way too improve on it is to put higher ratio rockers. You don't increase the duration but you speed up the open and closing, more area under the curve along with higher lift.

[@Wrenchen-with-Darren]

Just what I was thinking, but I've never done it. Thanks for the comment.

[@michaelblacktree]

For example, going from 1.5 to 1.6 rockers is basically like a mild cam upgrade. Just make sure your valve springs can handle the extra lift.

[@richardholdener1727]

it effectively adds almost 2 degrees of duration too

[@merritts3515]

I have a tri power on a completely stock 305, it makes my friends mad at the car show who have extremely built engines, because everyone swarms the tri, but just glance over the regular looking engines. Despite them being better in every way.

[@richardholdener1727]

ALL ABOUT THE WOW!

[@thetriode]

From dynamics of the runner lengths I'd much rather try to make some form of dual quad setup. That Tri Power looks really nice though in the hp and the looks department. That said the engine (notably the cam) defined this test anyways. It's such a cute little cam, the kind you'd run with a stock ECU practically.

[@crw3673]

Honestly I find found the test a bit disappointing, but reasonable. If the tri power carburetor system had really worked you would have seen it progress passed the 60's so results were expected. But to go through all the trouble of synchronizing 3 carburetors to work together for less power is very disappointing.

[@the_langss]

You really nailed it....I had a buddy back in the "Dark Ages" with a Factory Tri-Power 58 Chevy with a 348...Ran it regularly at San Fernando Raceway...Swapped a single 4bbl on it and went way Quicker & Faster. Good Times in the 60's

[@unclesquirrel6951]

Mechanical Timing on a mild run of the mill back yard engine " dot to dot " is fine as long as the combo isn't to radical it's not going to matter much on the daily driven street engine ( not that would be noticeable really ) .

[@jeremythefleetguy1693]

I agree with that statement in its face, but I never realized how many cams I installed when installed dot-to-dot that (once a degree wheel installed) were actually about 4-5 degrees retarded from what they should have been. I degree mine in 100% of the time. Straight-up is fine as long as it IS straight-up.

[@unclesquirrel6951]

@@jeremythefleetguy1693 Yep I absolutely agree

[@lloydholt6511]

@@jeremythefleetguy1693 a real interesting question is how much of that is in the timing gear chain setup your using? In one case I found that by just changing from a stock setup to a high quality gear/chain set eliminated some of the retard I hear suggested. The real answer is it never hurts to check but, unless you are running stock pistons with over 0.500 lift and relatively high duration, the retard may not have as much affect as you would think on a really mild street motor. As you progress in lift and duration the effect becomes more noticeable and in some cases can creat possible piston to valve clearance issues in some high lift high duration cams. Another reason to suggest also checking piston to valve clearances after decreeing any cam. Just my thought on the subject. Really nothing but an old mans rambling thoughts. Thanks for the opportunity to exercise those three brain cells of mine. They were getting lonely. Lol

[@jeremythefleetguy1693]

It’s all good. I’ll take the time to degree wheel it. It’s better than guessing to me. Live and let live.

[@juansolis137]

First of all I enjoy your videos a lot, good info. My experience dealing with mechanical timing , when I degreed a cam that is because you trying to get the best performance with the camshaft profile that I have. If there is the need to advance or retard your mechanical timing then you have the wrong cam for your convination. The idea is to have the more area under hp and torque on your graph. This is just my humble opinion. 👍 keep up the good work.

[@wakjob961]

Degreeing in a new cam, is just to know that you have what you paid for, and that it matches the specs on the cam card. I'll be degreeing my first new cam this week...making my piston stop tomorrow.

[@scotthatch4653]

The other thing is that every now and then one is ground off center ...I have had cams 8 degrees off before

[@joe-hp4nk]

If you ever get a hold of a Barry Grant inline 4barrel, that would be a great test.

[@gregblack4581]

On my 65 gto I had the 66 tri power set up . When I went to a Edelbrock intake and 850 Holley it picked up a half second in the quarter.

[@daviddavid5880]

Efficiency, esmiciency. The tri power looks awesome.

[@richardholdener1727]

It does!

[@daviddavid5880]

@@richardholdener1727 I'm really longing for one of those dual-intake cross ram setups for my LS. Will I gain power? Meh. Probably not. Will it look heckin amazing? Heck yeah.

[@moterdude1959]

Would like to see twin 4 barrel carbs added to this video to see how that does in comparison to see any gains or losses. Great Video again Richard.

[@hugieflhr03]

You need to do this video again with the lower rpm range. Almost every hotrodder I know has installed a cam and the first thing they say is it’s a dog at low RPM. So it would be cool to see a pretty hot cam get dialed in for streetablity or a low compress engine that can’t handle the duration get dialed in for off idle torque.

[@benhowe2087]

I would like to see an individual throttle plate with equal length runner intake. Four Weber’s or maybe EFI. See how that does against the four barrel with duel plane. Need more cam though.

[@timothybayliss6680]

Richard has done tons of testing with a 4.6l Ford and a homemade intake. I think he compared single plane v dual plane v custom. I think it was all fuel injected but the design changed

[@benhowe2087]

@@timothybayliss6680 I have watched all of these. Individual throttle bodies have not been tested.

[@richardholdener1727]

I have tested IR downdraft system on a SBC-it was from Speedmaster

[@denniswinston7365]

I always like a old school look of tri-power great eye candy 🍬

[@AreaThirteenThirteen]

I like the results of the first test, TQ and HP in the 400's N/A (especially that flat torque curve) in a usable RPM range on the street and the simplicity of a single 4 barrel combined with driveability of the mild cam would be fun enough for me!

[@brocluno01]

Dual 4-bbl vs 3 deuces is a better test. Cam advance or retard usually means something with OEM "performance" or "marine" cams which are still pretty mild compared to the aftermarket. Once the cams get serious, pretty much stay with what the supplier says ...

[@jimmiller4667]

Richards, what was the total cfm of the 4bbl compared to the 6 pack? I'm curious if the total cfm of the 6 pack was more and therefore had less vac signal/worse distribution/etc?

[@richardholdener1727]

SIX PACK IS MORE CFM

[@erwinnijs1]

Richard, could you test swapping the pistons and rods bank to bank on this motor? Maybe throw in a windage tray/crank scraper test, valve size test, Rocker arm ratio test, air filter test or spark plug/coil/igniter test? All tiny differences compared to all your other tests, but I'm interested in them anyways. Just to know if they are worth putting effort in.

[@BigBadMarketer]

yes but what about lower rpm power?? I would think tripower would do better in low rpm driveability, idle, fuel economy around town n highway

[@deuceman32]

What a great little street driver that would be, thanks for putting this one up, Richard. While I love continually learning on your channel, I'm well into my 60's now and the drag strip days are mostly behind me. I am trying to assemble my nostalgic builds with old school looks, but with some snap. What I would love to see is some intake testing specifically for the aftermarket TBI's like FiTech and Sniper. With carb signal removed from the equation, and a single Lambda sensor in one pipe, I would think that distribution becomes critical. Could a small single plane be the way to go here? Love to find out, and I can't be the only one. Got anything for us?

[@richardholdener1727]

even with EFI, a single plane will still make less power in the lower rpm range than a dual plane

[@dominicdaley5702]

May not produce jaw dropping improvements but it does look more badass

[@1worldgaming18]

tri-power would be really cool on a (4,3) v6 , kinda like when we in europe put 3 twin weber's/dellorto's on a v6

[@Ed70Nova427]

Seems to me from my memory as a machinist back in the mid 70's all the manufacturers called for most machining specifications of + or - 2° for the keyway on the crankshafts, + or - 2° on the camshaft positions and the same for both gears. So if this is true (which I think it is true) and you add up all the flaws, you could end up with 8° retarded cam timing or 8° advanced cam timing. If you happened to get and engine where everything fell perfectly into place from the factory you had the car that always blew the doors of everything else in town. The worst part is I believe from 73' on up, the factory machined the cam gears to give 4° retard to help with emissions. You do the math on that one and you wonder why lemon laws broke out in the 80's. With today's factory CNC machining and all the automatic self correcting built into the programs, all the machining will be very close to dead nuts every time. I still have a small worn out degree disc I used for TDC checks and quick cam degree check's at .050" lift on every engine we assembled and only changed the ones that a three position crank gear would help. On an engine with an aftermarket cam, we would degree all of them because some grinders would build the degree they called for, into the cam and some required you to set up the timing with the gears. I assembled a 92' roller 350 for a buddy back in 2016 and everything was really close even the cam timing without having to make any adjustments. It turned out to be a really nice running little hot rod.

[@drbendaroo9610]

Rich, have you done any distributor comparison? Points vs. hei, factory vs. aftermarket etc?

[@timothybayliss6680]

He has said before as long as your not having the spark blown out, there is very little difference. The 292 turbo runs stock coil and points that he didn't check the gap on. There is *maybe* a little to be gained with a msd setup that has multiple sparks. Even nascar engines with indexed plugs and filed gaps, that work is only worth about 5hp at the very top of the curve. For those guys, being 5hp down is a huge hurtle when everyone is so close.

[@wayneireland4802]

As always depth view into science of mechanic and function of Otto engine well done buster

[@funfun8095]

👐

[@baderalbuloushi8369]

Hello Mr Richard ... I have an idea or a question don't know how to say it .. first what is the range of cams LSA ... i,ve seen 106 and 122 ... there is more? And the question is for a cam in the 240 or 250 duration range on a 5.7 or a 6.0 can the lsa be so high the it will have a minus or near zero overlap for smooth idle like a much smaller cam in the 210 to 220 range? How would it do on the dyno and vacuum ? Thanks

[@timothybayliss6680]

He has one video up with an Ls and three cams, same lobes but different lsa. Off memory it was 108, 112 and 120. 106 is not particularly tight, guys at EMC will run cams with 240@050 and 98 or 96° lsa.

[@baderalbuloushi8369]

@@timothybayliss6680 saw it but it does not answer my question of a bigger cam with max high lsa compared to a small cam say a 224 224 114

[@richardholdener1727]

I'm not sure the cam core cam do that-but I can check-I have not tested LSA beyond 123 degrees

[@baderalbuloushi8369]

@@richardholdener1727 got the calculation ... 224 224 114 vs 242 248 124.5 both have -4 overlap ... if it is possible i'll pay for the bigger cam for you to test the vacuum and idle and power vs the 224 224 114 on an sbc 350 or any stock lsx .... or a 224 230 114 vs a 242 248 123

[@russelljackson7034]

Right on

[@MainStreetMuscle]

Speaking of interesting intakes, How does a single carb tunnel ram compare to a dual carb ram considering air fuel distribution? Specifically blow through when running one carb is considerably cheaper than 2

[@loafbred]

I'd also like to see a pair of 500 cfm two-barrels on a tunnel ram. I don't think I've ever seen that done.

[@robertkeime4907]

Great video

[@adampinczesgarageandfabric9930]

I would like to see more more testing on this and then show OHV vs SOHC vs DOHC I think the biggest gains will be seen on the DOHC setups. I did see some low end gains on my 2.3L SOHC ford ranger playing with cam timing. I was able to pull a big hill in 4th gear that would normally be a downshift to 3rd but I can't be sure if I was making more retarded or advanced because it was a crap shoot with the amount of of play I had in my keyway. also I've done lots of cam changes and always have to tell people there's no point in degreeing your cam in most applications for street because they didn't have an adjustable sprocket so there's nothing to change you just end up with useless information. if you spend the money on adjustable sprockets then it can be worth it but usually only for minimal gains from what I hear. aftermarket cams are precision machined unless you get a defective one.

[@williamsanders468]

I wonder if an old school 8 1 barrels would be better than a single 4 barrel

[@zAvAvAz]

Hey richard holdner, Barry Grant did it didn't they with that fine tri carb setup :o) + Hey test the colorado hot rod parts real street ram on a 355, 383, 406, and then port it test them again and also for say a 434 c.i. Use hydraulic roller cams, and vortec, then aluminum promaxx , and AFR or trick flow heads or whatever you think is best. This would be awesome letting guys know about a real street designed tunnel ram for daily driver hot rodding, not that a tunnel ram= setup properly wouldn't work just as well, or better, or anything, just testing and modding it for the best it can do , you know.

[@richardholdener1727]

what is colorado hot rod parts

[@zAvAvAz]

@@richardholdener1727 oops , they became inactive in 2021 in business directory i just found because the website was not found, sorry richard, although this is what they did for a little while and had some impressive photos of vehicle owners with the product extremely happy about their colorado hot rod parts *real street ram, it incorporated a weiand lower tunnel ram, with custom designed separate tops, this incorporated customized quickfuel carburetors that were tuned with all throttle blades opening simultaneously, this was a great idling , great part throttle tunnel ram for lower rpm use, the tops themselves were aluminum and had vacuum vase shaped runners that plowed into the lower tunnel ram for a high velocity punch straight into the heads. Dyno graphs showed more torque than an rpm with a trade off in hp, this was with a comp gm mimmic cam the L79 with more modern design power, meant to mimic the original. imagine with some real upgrades besides those and the camelhumps, it was making 400+ torque horsepower was probably less as it was not the focus. i believe the real street ram has some potential, you can tune a properly sized variant to the application. however customers really enjoyed them very much, chevelles, camaros, mustangs, hot rods, el caminos. it was a budget sensible website that was easy to explore and understand, wish it was still up.

[@zAvAvAz]

oh well . . . sigh , just another sign of awesome relic small businesses going down the drain . . .

[@davidreed6070]

Comp came alot of times grinds +4 into the cam, by you adv the cam 3 you could have been +7 gonna lose power. I have found SBC's usually make more power every where when the ilc is 4 degrees advanced from the LSA, if the cam is close to the proper grind for the job.

[@vtwinaddicted5852]

Richard could you do a video comparing , on a 350, not 383, vortec heads vs the cheaper as cast china aluminum heads?, this would be great info for the true budget builde, thanks

[@tundra2000boy]

Love your videos but have you done the 454 test to see how much power it can make boosted like the 6.0 big bang test? Curious if it can beat the 6.0 stock for stock bottom end

[@jr78racer]

Have you done any testing with Hilborn fuel injection? Any significant power differences noticed on either end of the rpm range vs the beige suit combo?

[@richardholdener1727]

the stack injection does add power

[@jr78racer]

@@richardholdener1727 just high rpm power or everywhere in the curve?

[@BOOT]

Dyno doesn't show if the cam advance helped with drive-ability and sometimes that is more important

[@Wrenchen-with-Darren]

First time request...a lot of us have mild built motors, but want a little more cam. Can we just put in 1.5 or 1.6 rockers to increase hp?

[@timothybayliss6680]

Usually you can. The issue you run into is lots of aftermarket rockers are heavier than stock ones and if you have soft, old, stock springs you can get into valve float. Ford guys have 1.7-1 that were stock on cobra 5.0l engines in their twilight that are worth a dozen horses on stock engines. For gm guys the rockers that came stock on 1996 lt4 were 1.6 roller deals that work with most factory heads, they are worth about the same power.

[@rustysausage69]

You'll see only marginal increases if you theres not a lot of camshaft duration to take advantage of the added lift from the 1.6 rocker.

[@Wrenchen-with-Darren]

@@rustysausage69 thank you

[@Wrenchen-with-Darren]

@@timothybayliss6680 thank you

[@richardholdener1727]

Sometimes effective when run on stock cams(the combo is begging for wilder cam timing)

[@Adrianzx]

Degree camshaft to verify accuracy I've seen cams ground one tooth off on an intake side but not on the exhaust

[@Wade2River]

I have always wondered on a 6 pack can you get away with running bigger jets in the secondaries??? There on each end, not just one.

[@frozenstang3868]

some cams have 4 deg of advance ground in to them

[@bcbloc02]

Would be interesting to know which carb setup had the best mpg

[@richardholdener1727]

yes

[@ts302]

Hey Richard, how about running a healthy to big cam and then some big cam swings, maybe 10 to 20 deg Adv/Rtd, to illustrate any changes with the power curve. Great work, thank you.

[@scotthatch4653]

20 degrees is a whole tooth off ...so what happens if I guy doesn't get it in correct and is a tooth off ? Normally it doesn't run well enough to find out

[@ts302]

@@scotthatch4653 OEM VCT systems can vary cam timing up to 50 degs.

[@MichaelIng123]

Hello. Great videos! How does a person get in touch with you to recommend an other guys video possibility? This is a top subscription in my opinion due to all the info you give. You save people so much time and money.

[@richardholdener1727]

just tell me right here-I try to read and answer every comment-my email is also in other videos

[@MichaelIng123]

@@richardholdener1727 I have a 91 F350 7.3 idi NA that I put an ATS 093 kit on and can't find any info on tuning for timing or what the power levels are. Also the 351/400M on an engine stand in my shop looks similar so I was wondering if a turbo would wake that engine up. I built one and it seemed like a good running engine to about 4000 rpm. Not much different than the 7.3 idi..?

[@erikrunas226]

Would there have been a bigger difference between the 4 barrel verse the 6 pack outputs if you would have swapped to a bigger cam compared to what you ran? Or would cam size not matter?

[@richardholdener1727]

I think they are pretty even but have to test

[@coothethird]

Now time for a Dual quad, or ITB's!

[@user-wd8qm5hl8l]

Hi Richard! Is there a test you’ve run in the past with aftermarket adjustable cam gears on a dual overhead camshaft engine? If you don’t have the data on that I think it would be a cool way to demonstrate cam timing and lobe separation angle. Cheers! And thanks for sharing all this information!

[@richardholdener1727]

Yes I have-mod ford applications-both 2V and 4V

[@andy347495]

I have an idea for you, test the effect of split duration and split lift.

[@richardholdener1727]

dual pattern cams?

[@andy347495]

@@richardholdener1727 yes, dual pattern cams.

[@ericgalloway461]

Interesting I’ve always wondered how much of this 6 pack was hype and how much was performance. Thanks for the info.

[@scotthatch4653]

Remember back in the day the carbs were not like we have today .... So more was a easy way to bigger ...

[@xxxYYZxxx]

The 4-barrel & tri-power aren't so much different. Both designs use 2 small main air inlets with secondary inlets for high output. Main inlets being equal, the 2 large secondary inlets on a 4bbl are roughly equal to the 4 small secondary inlets on the tri-power.

[@manitoublack]

What about quad webes😁. IDA / IDF / DCOE. They're all good👍

[@cartycarter6682]

Holy sh*t you’re up early...😂

[@richardholdener1727]

scheduled

[@unclesquirrel6951]

I don't think he does sleep I think Richard is a Alien possibly a robot from the planet boost and his Species never sleeps

[@tmokeefe88]

SBC big bang!!!

[@ninjapumkin]

Watch me flex and listen to my high pitch voice. Is this for Bo Flex?

[@rubberneck67]

Richard have you ever dynoed a small block with 4 weber carburetors?

[@richardholdener1727]

no but have run IR downdraft (weber style) intake with EFI

[@rubberneck67]

@@richardholdener1727 nice ive always loved that look

[@joe-hp4nk]

The 3 duces made a little more power, but is it worth it. The cost of two more carburetors and a manifold along with the setup involved, versus only a bigger 4 barrel on the same manifold.

[@richardholdener1727]

it made less

[@Jimmy-mt4kn]

It's for "cool factor" looks.

[@henryrobinson9837]

good video, have you ever done ant testing on a 305 chevy? i know its a POS motor but just curios if you could get 300HP

[@richardholdener1727]

take a look at the 305 videos that are up

[@joe-hp4nk]

Degreeing a cam for a street engine is a waste of time for the most part. Unless you have time to kill.

[@joe-hp4nk]

@DropDstar Sure, in your case it's time well spent.

[@LT3Fluffy]

@@joe-hp4nk probably not

[@andy347495]

Richard, you're up early.

[@CarsandCats]

I've never seen a great mind sleep in.

[@Wrenchen-with-Darren]

He is up late too. The man never sleeps.

[@timothybayliss6680]

There is a chance he uploaded before going to bed. It takes some time to render. Usually Richard is really active in the comments, and I haven't seen anything from him, that tells me he is still in bed.

[@richardholdener1727]

he scheduled the video to load-then drove 7 hours to Westech to pick up a ton of cool parts for his channel viewers AND.....wait for it.......a Project NOVA!!

[@CarsandCats]

@@richardholdener1727 Does this mean you will be building a boosted drag car???

[@phillipball-reed8071]

More tri power testing!

[@stephanM5]

You left out how many CFM's each two barrel carburetor could handle. were the they the same or less than the single 4 barrel carburetor?

[@richardholdener1727]

way more than the 4 barrel

[@stephanM5]

@@richardholdener1727 The dyno results don't reflect that at all. Why less horsepower and torque then from the 6 pack?; there has to be a reason. Jetting perhaps?

[@UcantBeSerious03]

good stuff, and I turned on the bell

[@richardholdener1727]

nice

[@BBBILLY86]

No idea why nobody is making a tri-power intake for a big block chevy. Edelbrock makes them for a variety of common motors but no BBC?? The factory 427 pieces are insane money.

[@BBBILLY86]

@John Presnell thats awesome! Theres a Corvette website that has OEM tri power intakes. Only place Ive found. Depending on #s and condition..... $1,900 to $5,000 just for the manifold. And they only have a half dozen at any given time. You got a great trash find!!! No way that's happening in 2020. Edelbrock, Wieand or Offy need to get on this.

[@andress8107]

Doesn’t comp grind cams with 4* adv?

[@richardholdener1727]

usually to address chain stretch

[@ttx888]

I found in Internet a Infos from a Edelbrock Tri-Power Intake this a Vintage Intake The Name is Edelbrock C362S- I think it could make more Power than a Single Carb. This Intake a Single Plane type for Rochester 2G (large). What do you think.

[@richardholdener1727]

if single plane-it will lose power in this rpm range

[@ttx888]

@@richardholdener1727 Thank you for the Informations, have a great Sunday.

[@k3cars]

sometime we need fast rev engine which applied to the TRI power you tested. Thanks

[@bdugle1]

A while back you made a comment about VVT on the LY6, saying you’d like to investigate using that on a built engine. VVT has to be ultimate in cam advance and retard enhancement of the engine. This SBC combo had a very small, low lift cam that was probably close to maxing out the low end of the torque curve. Factory VVT allows something like 60° of cam centerline variation, so that might be enough to make 10-20 lb-ft way down at the bottom of the curve, a place you never test for performance mods. And again at the top, that much variability in the retard direction might make a useful 10 or 20 lb-ft at the top, which could be multiplied by rpm if you’re above 5252 at that point. I’m actually thinking about investigating keeping the VVT in my LY6 with a short duration (relatively) cam with a tight LSA. This, theoretically, would give me some overlap to fill in the torque curve when the cam is “straight up”, but let me have some cruising manners at 1500 with advance to maybe 30° intake closing (at 0.050”]. Conversely, retarding to 45° of intake closing at high rpm might keep most of what a 459 or 469 cam does for a 6.0. I haven’t discussed this with Comp or anybody yet, don’t know if their blank VVT cams can accommodate the lobe profiles I’m talking about, so I guess it’s just dreaming at this point. Meanwhile, Richard, keep all this good research coming on my most favorite channel!

[@armandomendoza3167]

Can you do a video based on old school tricks? An example would be from a you tuber called Uncle Tony's garage. Free horse power video. And match it with a stock engine build.

[@richardholdener1727]

tony does good stuff over there

[@kevinjohnson9372]

I feel like the 3 duce intake would be short runners and if u didnt have cam and head flow to take advantage of the short runners u would be throwing away low end power

[@stevenprior7652]

A little less top power and a better mid range

[@kennethrand1032]

Richard it is necessary to degree the cam because sometimes they're ground with up to 4 degrees advance in them. I have found older duntof cams with 3 degrees retard ground in them so if you are building a high compression block with thin head gaskets and valve clearance is an issue you definitely want to degree the cam. Also adding retard to a low duration cam will more often hurt top end power

[@bigredracer7848]

My friend had an old 64 Chevelle with tri-power 327 in it and it screamed and tried power motors are really tight and nasty if you have to run up against one

[@bigredracer7848]

If you don't agree the cam and you could be off as much as 112°

[@richardholdener1727]

off by 112 degrees?

[@deanstevenson6527]

Mechanical secondary optimized Qjet beats Holley 4bbl Mec sec. For Tripower, secondary barrel 3 to 6 operation must be mechanical. GM decided to replace Tri Powers with 725-780-800 cfm 4bbls because of the secondary system on the Tri Power. They are neck ans neck, but a 4bbl is aways more reliable. The real gain was in street fuel consumption reduction. A 4bbls in gears, steady state performance times is far better than opening up 6 sq inches of total 3 to 6 bbl area. A great 4 bbl is always the match of any tri power.because it is a non Independent runner system with minimal vaccum cross talk. In my humble opinion based on many Tri Power research projects from US cars made from 1957 to 1972.

[@zachariahferguson8871]

I have a question. I have a Gen 6 454 with a zz502 cam was wondering what size carb and jets to start out with. It's in a 1974 Chevy C10 with an auto trans. Just going to be street driven most of the time. Thank you for any help.

[@timothybayliss6680]

For a street driven engine with an auto, I'm going to insist on a vacuum secondary. There are some pretty big ones out there, I think the biggest Holley is an 850. Your looking for little differences, the gain from going from a 600cfm to a 1000cfm on the dyno with that engine might only be 10hp, but when you put it in the truck with a torque convertor behind it, the bigger carb might cause all kinds of headaches. I know it sounds cliche but a 750 vacuum secondary might be your best choice. Richard did a test for superchevy where he ran an aftermarket cam in a gen6 with an edelbrock intake and a 750hp carb. www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/1506-how-to-pick-up-big-power-on-a-junkyard-454-with-simple-cam-swap/ This will be pretty similar to whet you got going on. I am not gonna tell you how to jet it. Lots of guys have videos up on getting carbs.

[@richardholdener1727]

thnx Tim-yes about a 750, but I wouldn't hesitate to use a 650 on that mild combo-and cue the too small comments

[@zachariahferguson8871]

@@timothybayliss6680 Thank you very much for your info.

[@zachariahferguson8871]

@@richardholdener1727also thank you very much for your info.

[@zachariahferguson8871]

I have a Holley 650 with vac secondary's. What jets should I start out with?

[@doomman700]

Disappointed you chose such a small cam for this test.

[@kennethrand1032]

Wow you actually listened to my request now add turbo keep boost the same and change cam timing if you do I'll send you 50 bucks

[@richardholdener1727]

how amazing would it be to spend a $1000 or motor dyno testing to make $50? Which Request?

[@kennethrand1032]

@@richardholdener1727 I wish I could pay you your weight in gold your videos have helped me so much with my build. But keeping boost the same on a Chevy V8 how much does cam timing effect horsepower and back pressure would advancing or retarding add back pressure

[@kennethrand1032]

If you need help finding a weird or obscure engine let me know and I'll gladly locate it for you

[@unclesquirrel6951]

Personally I blame squirrels

[@deanstevenson6527]

Darren Nash and the Venerable John Woodworth. It was recently revealed to me by a Naturalized Aussie Aussie Aussie Oui Oui Oui that what we have hear is faliure to communiCAT. Chipmunk, Punk! kzbin.info/www/bejne/fGO9qaaMgNyNi80

[@richardholdener1727]

no politics-don't care who you are for

[@unclesquirrel6951]

@@richardholdener1727 I was thinking squirrels 2020 lol . , you are correct sir . Two things I never get into our politics and religion . Two subjects with no way of winning without making someone upset . I completely agree with you

[@deanstevenson6527]

John Woodworth & Richard Holdener: RPM A.C.T. 101. no R~, no P~, dont Mess Around wit Causes like Those. Although I do like Monks. And Monkeys with GTOs.And Marsupials. But the crossover is small. Just sayn....

[@indyrock8148]

I have always been curious for dyno results using a dual quad air gap manifold

[@richardholdener1727]

I ran one of those too

[@indyrock8148]

@@richardholdener1727 how did it perform?

[@benwingo6675]

Cam advance or retard is to confusing the main thing to look at is your intake center line this is your best tool to gauge a cam to piston relationship with that tame of camshaft you will not see much difference. What you are doing is changing your compression ratio by moving the intake's valve closing degree timing. Don't sacrifice the squeeze for low in power.

[@darkshine5]

great vid Richard, would love to see you test carb air horn options, i.e. split primaries single velocity flute, single velocity, flute per barrel maybe different air scoops (butterfly, bird catcher etc) effect on torque www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/123068515128_/Holley-1150-cfm-Dominator-4-Barrel-Carburetor-4575.jpg

[@shoes121255]

Can you test the speed master cross ram sbc intake for the side draft weber carbs?

[@richardholdener1727]

I did the downdraft

[@danieldimitri6133]

Why would you ever advance a cam that small? Seems illogical.

[@mrmiscast]

I wouldn't call the advance/retard the cam rules of thumb hard and fast rules either. Maybe the rules of thumbnails. While it does in fact work in "some" instances. It appeared to me after taking the time and effort to do all the work multiple times over the years to have more to do with the combination of possible airflow vs cam specs. Too large a cam does respond well to advance on an airflow combination that is more or less correct for the cubic inches. The same seemed to work for too small a camshaft on an engine combination that was equipped with heads and intake larger than the cubic inches actually needed for a particular application, then retarding the cam got more power out of the combination. Which really brings the question of Why would you install a camshaft in a particular engine combination that was too small or too large for the airflow capabilities or use parts that are so far off the needs/requirements for your application? Even large manufactures used cam timing almost as they do now with variable timing as a fix and slight extension to help power or emissions in a certain area of the rpm range. The most obvious to some of us "Old" guys being Ford retarding the cams of 460's in the early 70's. The retard was approx 6 degrees, killing the bottom end of a large engine, only allowing the cam to be Most effective well past the design of the intake, and other parts. Swapping in the timing gears for a 429 would wake up a mid 70's 460, bringing back that bottom end. Certainly adding those extra hydrocarbons Ford spent time and money attempting to eliminate for emissions requirements.

[@kennethrand1032]

But does advance or retard with artificial atmosphere do the same thing

[@richardholdener1727]

yes

[@joe-hp4nk]

Less is more and more is less.

[@richardholdener1727]

yes, more or less

[@haydenspence6952]

If its good for a mouse its good for a rat

[@jeremysmith3556]

12 barrel anyone?

[@arkadyt7051]

Old Italian supercars are often set up with that. The V12 cars run 6 pairs of weber 2-barrels downdrafts with individual throttle bodies and stacks. Sounds fantastic but it's a nightmare to synchronize and tune.

[@deanstevenson6527]

Jeremy Smith : See this kzbin.info/www/bejne/kKXYm6Kubcufr5I Ak Millers old Bored and stroked out 283 Chevy taken to 352 cuber made 315 rwhp in his Goldspar roadster. Thats 12 bbl were 8 bbl would be Port on Port. Six 2bbl 156 cfm 0.98 "97" Carbs. IIRC... Duke Howlet from Garret Air Reserch used to beat his a$$ with just one TO4B in a Ford. He told Ak:-" How about you stop all this tryin....and put one of my whistles on there. Heck, try Two!..." Mr Holdener knows the answer about the .best Tri Power....

[@michaelangelo8001]

You couldn't run fast enough to *give* me a 3x2 intake...

[@deanstevenson6527]

Michael Angelo How 'bout a 12 barrel then? Six 2bbls.

[@michaelangelo8001]

@@deanstevenson6527 Go for it... Two four barrels are hard enough to tune, and I don't think there is any more horsepower to be found elsewhere.

[@richardcoleman9645]

Those carbs were not tuned right. It should have made more or equal power at a lower rpm.