SBFC 94: Pat Hates Superman (& Western Comics in General)

Pat gives his review of All-Star Superman
Taken from Super Best Friendcast 94 - "It All Began In '94"
superbestfriend...

[@felabugg1]

Pat is a bald ginger who hates Superman. Lex Luthor is a bald guy who used to be ginger who hates Superman. Pat confirmed for Lex Luthor.

[@FuriousGorge]

But Luthor is tall, smart, and successful.

[@TheTriad001]

And Pat is smart and successful too.

[@JRSanchez93]

Pat could be tall if he had a dumb mech suit like Lex.

[@johnkramer2144]

TheTriad001 define "smart and successful"

[@JohnSmith_1920]

can YOU make a living being angry (and funny) at video games on the internet? clearly something is working (i added the funny part because i realized i described DSP just as i hit save)

[@AsyaCSmith]

"You can win an argument if you change what words mean" Damn Pat.

[@TheCreaturesfan1]

Poor Woolie got torched.

[@ronyncato7206]

www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/129/Moving_the_Goalposts This is essentially what Woolie did.

[@Whatevsman27]

Dangerous Duality went for his throat and refused to let go

[@MiaowGaiGar]

After years of hearing the kids use "savage" in response to someone getting one-upped, I finally find a case where I can only describe a retort as exactly that.

[@DoctorHomicide]

Rey Mustayne But it ain’t from I gathered Woolie didn’t address any of pats point he just kinda changed the subject. Pat saying he doesn’t want perfect characters while Woolie went on about semi relataded topics

[@fireandthunder9862]

I like the idea of Pat acting as a poorer version of Lex Luthor. Like instead of using giant robots to fend off Superman Pat just opens his door with a bat in his hand is tells superman "no, you need to leave."

[@blaacksugar7714]

Pat is the villain we need AND deserve.

[@smugalice6206]

Fire and Thunder Don't forget his "Crazy Talk" Stand.

[@AntanovOCEFGC]

The best bit is, that shit would probably work.

[@Abdega]

Blake Gilbert Pat: I guess nothing will beat that freak… 「Crazy Talk」ACTIVATE Superman gets hit by a stray random gamma ray burst or something that blasts through him and into Pat; nullifying Superman’s powers and giving them to Pat Pat: Yes… YES! *DELICIOUS!*

[@MrSpacemonkey38]

Lex is a bald ginger. Pat is half way there

[@chrisgostanian6753]

Pat's argument about western comics really just boils down to the question "why should I care?" "Why should I care if someone close to the protagonist dies, they can just come back in a different run?" "Why should I care about character development when the character will just be passed off to another writer who might ignore it or roll it back, either through the new writer not liking that direction for the character or the new writer just being shitty?" Hell, I wish Pat knew more about western comics, because the ability to throw "One More Day" in Woolie's face would have won him that argument by being one of the greatest examples of how terrible the western comics system can be.

[@Taxmanization]

Chris Gostanian will

[@attackofthecopyrightbots]

amazed at how the first half of your made me think you were gonna defend comics and then that last sentence lol

[@SavagePassion666]

This is my exact problem with some comics in general.

[@pastmistakes524]

Chris Gostanian (I know this is old but) well for me the reason why I care, is because I personally like seeing different interpretations of certain things, kind of like the same reason that I watch all the different versions of a Christmas Carol. I like to think of the different variations of comics kind of like the relationship between DBZ and DBGT. I always have a favorite comic book series, and whenever I see a new one, I like to look at it and say “okay let’s see if you top this” and sometimes it’s not as good but in certain areas it surprises me how well they handle or deliver a situation better than my favorite version. But that’s just me though.

[@suoerfucker2000]

That totally right, persona makes something good out of this like in persona 3 you get this cast of characters and this story that is totally diferent from the last game and so on, for each Persona game there is different characters and a different plot but they all revolve around one theme so it feels new and i don't know much outside of the algorithim they are going to use. And i don't have to worry about other characters from previous games, they're story is over and this is a new story but it has sort of a same formula.

[@Hoonters-goona-Hoont]

"The perfect person demeans your life by existing" Damn. That came straight from the core, didn't it? Most of the time I just laugh about Pat's gnomy yelling, but then he just whips out a quote like that and I remember why he's my favourite tsundere.

[@zeterzero4356]

HOONTERS GONNA HOONT Except for the part where you allowing someone else's existence to determine the perceived value of your own is stupid. Run your own race Pat!

[@mitchelldrake6069]

Zeter Zero I think Patty Mayonaise was only talking about his societal value or impact. I doubt he deeply cares about Mrs. Perfecto on a personal level. I would feel shitty if I worked with the best writer in America in the same office as me. It's not that I care about that person enough to depress me or effect my work ethic, but I would technically be a lesser degree to him which does make my efforts feel somewhat inferior only because of mass critical acclaim and not my own subconscious. Papa Pat has a point.

[@MiaowGaiGar]

He's right in a way; a person who comes off as flawless only makes the obviously flawed look that much more misfit. We live in a world where everyone sucks, without exception, yet everyone expects everyone else to be perfect. Our value as people lies in our ability to overcome our flaws and contribute in ways others' flaws prevent them from doing, but we're instead encouraged not to improve, but to pretend we don't have to. It's a colossal waste.

[@Reverse_Hood]

Really proves how much of a shitty edgetard Pat is

[@seraphiim444]

SuperJYLS i mean he’s a five foot tall bald fat guy who had to FIGHT bullies as a kid cause they would pick on him lmaoo

[@mariofan1ish]

"The story starts off with him getting even MORE invincible." "I knoooOOOOOOWWWW!!!!"

[@whyisgooglemakingmedothis603]

Behold - 11:14 - the elusive, yet captivating howl of the Patron.

[@lesterthenightfly1828]

This cements Pat as my absolute favorite of the 4.

[@colonelangus7224]

What took you so long?

[@attackofthecopyrightbots]

because he hates superman? plenty of other things to like about him but this is pretty weak

[@Reverse_Hood]

Really proves how much of a shitty edgetard Pat is

[@vtech325]

"The perfect person demeans your life by existing!" That's something Lex would say; The guy who is so overly insecure and obsessed with being the best that he's willing to destroy anything or anyone just prove he's better than Superman. The alien guy who just wants to help people and isn't even perfect.

[@logandh2]

Ramofields Fieldamona That is something Lex would say, and he’d be fucking right. Superman is a villain at best.

[@alexmansfield3268]

logandh2 oh yes lex Luthor the man who murders anyway who even looks at him funny and literally got to where he is by killing and ruining people’s lives and who has deliberately tried to destroy the world just so he can feel like he’s right. Have you read a superman comic. Because I don’t think you have

[@ghirahimlefabuleux8984]

@@alexmansfield3268 opposing a villain doesn't automatically makes you a good guy.

[@Copperhell144]

@@ghirahimlefabuleux8984 But being a good guy sure does, which Superman sure is

[@ericthedumbmet4699]

found someone who got the same reaction as i did

[@ramirezreality95]

This is probably one of my all time favorite discussions with SBFP and really highlights a lot of things that I love about their podcast. Thanks for isolating it for easy re-listening

[@benzo546]

Having a guy who’s invincible and it not turn him psycho and he stays humble and human is very interesting in and of itself. That’s one thing I like about Superman

[@dakota4384]

It is the whole nurture sort of thing

[@awkwardcultism]

I think it would be way more interesting if he did go crazy, actually.

[@SteelBallRun1890]

@@awkwardcultism And that's half of the popular Superman takes now including the inspired parody ones, Injustice, Homelander from The Boys, Omni Man, Snyder's Superman if they continued that Snyderverse crap. It's so played out, it's like the notion of just being an all around good guy baffles people because this one character is inherently good natured and is a symbol of what's the best of humanity.

[@Khotgor]

Pat and Woolie have their ups and downs, but Matt generally doesn't have any ups from this conversation.

[@jugemujugemu4690]

very true, he takes pats dislike as a personal attack

[@SteelBallRun1890]

@@jugemujugemu4690 I think it's mainly because Woolie thinks he can change Pat, while Matt and most people at this point, knows there's no changing his opinion so why bother.

[@DinsRune]

The problem is that Woolie's trying to convince Pat that "No Superman's fine" in a way where he's just refusing to accept Pat's opinion.

[@Abdega]

I think that was mostly Woolie taking Devil’s advocate, He tends to do that

[@TheShockVox]

Not really. It’s more so what Matt is doing. Woolie literally saying he’s not trying to make him like a character he doesn’t like

[@E_The_Animator]

I super understand Woolie's statement "Superman is a Genre". But he should have phrased it better.

[@ronyncato7206]

No matter how you phrase it, it moves goalposts by "changing what words mean". His statement actually made me cringe at the bad logic of it. He should have said, "Superman is an Archetype"

[@E_The_Animator]

I feel like he meant that the genre is more about challenging the near unstoppable being with something even they can't simply overcome. It's like if you told Superman to rid the world of poverty, or Dr. Manhattan to end pollution. Sure they could probably do great things, but these challenges are beyond even their powers. (You know, as long as genocide is out of the question.)

[@Zeronigel332]

Логан Кейн I think he mean genre because there are series like Dragon ball z and Medaka box where the main character do pretty much everything too easily and that the supporting cast is way more interesting

[@Mahathemime89]

pokemonpoacher in a superman comic... he actually did that... the problem here is... HE HAS OVERCOME EVERY PROBLEM YOUVE THROWN AT HIM has he ever truly died and stayed dead? has he ever been struck with kryptonite and lost? has he ever met a villian he couldnt defeat eventually? the answer to all this is no... and it makes it worse that dc storylines dont have a centralized timeline so they can always just go to a different earth and grab a different superman who is literally the same as the previous... this is why marvel is so better... because these are humans that will die.. and have died... amd the story goes on... if superman dies... the story doesnt go on until superman returns and then you keep going with the same named superman of clark kent as if the death didnt mean anything... so why care is superman dies whrn they will just bring him back...

[@Jepze158]

@@Mahathemime89 -because these are humans that will die What the fuck are you talking about? Marvel characters die all the time and get back to life all the time.

[@SoaringLettuce]

14:50 and that's it. That's the moment Woolies entire argument fell apart.

[@b2modby]

The fact that that date *exists* is a falliure of Woolies argument, not the fact that he couldn't remember it.

[@abegr1]

@Pucopocre No you

[@SomeRandomJackAss]

I mean, All Star Superman was a self-contained story with a beginning and ending. Not part of the larger continuity.

[@flux_casey]

@@SomeRandomJackAss They literally said in this, the entire concept of All-Star is taking all of the bullshit from the larger continuity and playing it into the story. It's unfair to say a merit of the story is that it plays all of that wacky bullshit in and then say it's self-contained. By the very nature and intent of the story, it isn't.

[@Kickback2108]

Yeah, that what was my whole impression comin' out of One Punch Man. I just walked away from it like "Yep, that was the Super-man we deserve." 'Cause even though Saitama like had absolutely no problem with any kind of threat, he was so imperfect. He was HATED by the general public, he was BROKE, he was never once recognised for the deeds his committed. AND IT DROVE THE STORY. IT WAS COMPELLING AND INTERESTING. It was great, everyone loved it!

[@_sleepystarrynight_8119]

One Punch Man is not Super Man he is One Punch Man. I personally love the idea of a Superhero that is beloved by the world's population. I have not read much Superman but the premise of his character intrigues me

[@donutak74u]

The problem is for the most part superman has pathos or real character conflict. But the rare moments where he does are the only time he's bareable

[@SocBeefBoi]

That's the underlying problem, you may LIKE superman and his archetype (Saitama fits into his archetype because they are both overpowered God-Tier heroes), but another person who wants to be entertained or to connect with a fictional character will be different in how they want a character who is FLAWED and has to experience the negative qualities of life. Pat is ultimately arguing that Superman is an uninteresting character TO HIM (and may be also questioning the quality of that character) because he experiences no turmoil. YES, his weakness is kryptonite. What of it? Is there anyone in your life who is perfect except for a super rare material or issue? I can't, and this is why I love shows like Steins;Gate and FMA;B, because the characters are flawed and go through strenuous and painful experiences, which they grow from. The moments where Okabe wallows in his own misery and descends into a state of anxiety due to the numerous events or when Ed continues to unfold the mystery of Amestris with each unveiling causing him a realization that makes him question himself and his humanity, these were the moments I loved, not when watching Death March Isekai and saw the MC easily defeat enemies and problem solve with his goldlike abilities.

[@fuckiopussigetti453]

​​@@SocBeefBoifunny thing is that Pat has said on record that story driven really don't interest him all too much and is just there for the fights, the example he used was Cowboy Bebop and Faye's episodes

[@jamg25]

I think Superman stories should be high concept scifi's.

[@obermegalutschoar]

Crono is nothing like Superman. Crono is not a protagonist in the traditional sense, like Superman is made out to be. Crono has no personality because he is silent, not because he has no personality. He also serves as a stand in for the player this way, which makes his purpose in the story inherently different from the purpose Superman fulfills. Crono works really well this way, which is why the silent protagonist archetype is still widely used this way because it's a great way to narrate a video game. Superman is the only Superman because Superman is boring and stupid. There are dozens of Cronos.

[@brianreilly8846]

The same idea is in the legend of Zelda series, Link is minimal characteristics besides being brave and clever enough to go through dungeons, but the stories move due to the villains and Zelda (Which relates to Woolie and Pat arguing about how both Crono and Superman have supporting casts that are more interesting.). Link is the link between player and game, and we project onto them. In Skyward Sword, were Link has dialogue choices, we still get to project our voice. Comparing video game character archetypes to comic archetypes is unequal in this case, because we are the video game character, but we are not superman. That being said, Thor has superman level strength, a nigh indestructible magic hammer, perfect weather control, and the best smack talk in comics. I find Thor more interesting than superman. It is much less unfair to compare these two, and IMO Thor is cooler than Superman, and Thor is not a perfect god like being, he is a flawed actual(?) god being. He is kind of dim, impatient, a bit too blood thirsty, and has family issues.

[@Sigismund697]

+Brian Reilly what helps Thor is that he's a member of a species, there's others like him, and people stronger and more intelligent than him, that creates a believable character that can interact with others like a normal person and that makes him relatable

[@felixdaniels37]

SlimeQueenSupreme Except Superman is not the only Superman. Not only have there been MANY different versions of him, the entire genre is based around him. Your argument completely falls apart at the end because it's clear you have absolutely no knowledge of comics at all.

[@LordValdomerol]

What makes Thor WAY cooler than Supes is that, even if he has tons of powers, and is literally a god, he's still a fish out of water in our world, and also there's tons of beings that can go toe to toe against him. He can bleed, he can suffer and actually struggle to win his battles. His flaws are relatable, and under the right writers he's incredibly three-dimensional. Thor has an entire mythological pantheon that could (and have) defeat and even kill him. Meanwhile, Supes is so stupidly OP writers have to pull really dumb shit out of their asses to create any kind of threat to him. The run that cemented him as my favorite character was Thor God of Thunder under Jason Aaron, right after he defeats the God Butcher and goes back to Earth, he does a ton of charity work around the world. He creates rain in places where people are dying of thirst, drinks with war veterans, gifts cosmic food and pastries to poor kids in a brazilian favela, hell he even fucking dispells a westboro baptist church meeting (the "god hates you" guys). And it feels like he earned it, after suffering so much pain and stress in order to defeat Gorr, that payoff is beautiful, makes him feel more human. On the other hand, that very same thing feels incredibly boring with Supes because he doesn't even sweat to win his battles or save the day.

[@shupasopni]

Im' so glad I found this comment I was just thinking this and could not believe that argument. Of course silent video game protagonists are different.

[@NameIsDoc]

I agree with pat. Superman is OFTEN written as a fucking Mary Sue. However there are some comics where they FUCKING get it. Superman is perfect in every single way...But Clark Kent/Kal-el IS NOT. So Superman is an ideal that SUPERMAN HIMSELF can't live up to and it tears himself apart to do so you can relate to him. You can feel for him. When he is on the Kent farm talking to martha crying about how he didn't save ONE person in an accident, That is a good superman. When he stops fighting monsters to make sure one kid gets home safely, That is a good superman. When he talks a jumper out of suicide by being kind, That is a good superman. People love characters that are outside of their element. Where all their advantages don't help. That is why One Punch man works because he has to fight a system that he can't solve by punching. Mob in Psycho Mob 100 is ACTIVELY SEEKING to improve himself without his powers.

[@pepegon-zals7606]

10:15 is the most "Pat-thing" Pat's ever said.

[@BlargleWargle]

"If someone tells you to check out James Bond, do they mean all of it?" Considering you just said the name of a franchise and not a book or movie, then yes.

[@EdBern]

I can help out with the movies if you only wanna check out a few to get a feel for the franchise... You wanna check out classic 60s era with Connery? -From Russia with Love -Goldfinger -You Only Live Twice Want a random different guy? -On Her Majesty's Secret Service Wanna get campy? -The Spy Who Love Me -For Your Eyes Only -A View to a Kill Let's get serious for a moment, but still fun... -Living Daylights -Licence to Kill -Goldeneye A modern take... -Casino Royale -Skyfall

[@Hitorio]

@@EdBern Where does Tomorrow Never Dies fit in this categorization? =3

[@EdBern]

@@Hitorio Idk.. I didn't make a schlock category...

[@TomboTime]

Typically the best superman stories are the ones that take Supermans supposedly perfect moral compass and really challenge whether or not he's doing the right thing. Supes is tied to very traditional values of morality (he always chooses life, never kills, doesn't think any good deed is beneath him, yadda yadda) but because morality isn't always black and white you can make a lot of compelling stories where Superman MIGHT have to break his rule and kill this guy or Superman MIGHT have to let these people die. That's why Batman greatly compliments Superman, because he's constantly calling Superman naive and old fashioned and what not. Superman is very similar to Captain America in that regard, although Cap is far more interesting because he has the added on conflict of being from another time and he has the comedic flaw of not understanding current technology and culture.

[@Abdega]

I liked Superman/Shazam First Thunder because it was nice seeing Superman out of his element (magic) and seeing him try to act like a mentor character in the end. I think I remember someone saying they liked seeing those parts that focused on the “man” instead of the “Super” Also the never breaking his rule thing reminds me of Vash the Stampede, and that was executed really well after almost getting tiring with how he stuck with it, and then… you know.

[@KeysmashLP]

The best Superman comic is One Punch Man

[@SpacePompadour]

good joke

[@JmasterPullmizter]

Lol Thought the same thing. Supporting characters making the main character's existence meaningful.

[@pepegon-zals7606]

Where's the wrong?

[@kugelblitz1918]

Because Saitama isn't taking himself seriously (he's a hero for fun, not Space Jesus), and OPM is a comedy. The overpowered character like that only works in a comedy.

[@Yal_Rathol]

kugelblitz1918 well, not necessarily. the god-figure can work in any genre, but they can't be the one working to solve problems unless everyone they interact with is also a god-figure or stronger. saitama is a comedy protagonist, and is used in exactly the same way as superman, as a hammer to solve problems other people can't. the only difference is, when superman does it, everyone worships him. when saitama does it, he forgets to tell anyone his name and people worship king instead.

[@Jaynesslessly]

it feels like they are arguing about completely different things, woolie is defending superman comics as a whole or atleast some of the stories and the story flow that superman tends to bring about, and pat is just going nuts on how he hates superman because hes too bitter about being a perfect fictional character existing

[@mannythelazyguy6529]

I think its rather "woolie doesnt want to be negative about shit he is not so sure about" vs "pat wants to be negative about shit he barely knows about" both valid arguments

[@superapm9620]

Bald. Ginger. Hates Superman for being Perfect. Damn we sure Pat isn't just Lex Luthor in disguise?

[@ryanrod6990]

Naw lex luthor would never use an entire roll of paper towel to clean up a tiny puddle.

[@OliverKlozzofff]

One of the very few things Pat and Liam seem on the same page about.

[@TheCarlosCobain]

Remember when they used to get along? Yeah, me neither. The future fucking sucks.

[@humanitysfinest9795]

@@TheCarlosCobain Someone asked if he would appear on Liam's stream, and he didn't say no. He didn't say yes, but it wasn't a concrete no. Maybe we will be seeing a partial return to form...

[@Kinzokugia]

"So you ARE Lex" 'But Lex was super successful and a Bilionaire...' Quick, call S.T.A.R. Labs, see if they have anything for that advanced burn.

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

Oooh, self burn, those are rare

[@CappuccinoSquid]

I think I understand part of what Pat's trying to say: Superman, and frankly many comic book "characters" have been around so long, with so many interpretations and reinterpretations that contradict each other, cancel out, retcon, etc. that in order to even quantify what "Superman" even is, you have to look at what all of them have in common, and in Superman's case, the most prominent real constant outside his name and common elements in his visual design and backstory is "he's as powerful as the plot needs him to be", and that isn't inherently interesting because it warps the stakes, if not outright removes them, which should be a handicap and a challenge for writers to explore more interesting ideas of what can make a conventionally fallible and unrelatable character fallible and relatable, but instead often resorts to what's already been explored, which doesn't challenge their audience: Superman turns evil and Superman as a Christ figure have been done so many times, they could be their own tropes, they're played out and uninteresting.

[@anabsolutefuq9284]

I'm so glad youtubers like Overly Sarcastic Productions exist now...

[@fullmetalbleachnote]

Never seen the KZbinr in my life, what are your grievances with them? They got long videos and I don't want to waste the time

[@anabsolutefuq9284]

@@fullmetalbleachnote 9 Months. I know. Whatever. Wasn't intended to be sarcastic. i'm glad they exist because people who aren't familiar with the character can actually learn something about Superman (that isn't from a movie or show) through people who are super informative and engaging, unlike the backwards thinking in this podcast and the echo chamber that support them. The dots don't really give that impression though now that I look at it lol.

[@TomboTime]

there's a flipside to this coin Pat. What you said about hating a perfect person because their perfection demeans your existence in comparison. Superman right from the get go is this ultra powerful being who has the potential to do good on a level nobody else is capable of, if he never owned up to that potential because he is flawed you would call him an irresponsible asshole for not doing as much as he could to benefit the people around him. He's just doing what he feels is his job because if he's the only one who can do it, he HAS to do it. "with great power comes great responsibility" yadda yadda. But his perfection isn't what keeps Lex from doing great things too. Lex's jealousy and hatred of Superman's perfection is what keeps him from doing great things. That's why the quintessential moment in All-Star Superman is when Lex has Supermans powers, he sees everything Superman can see, then this power runs out and Superman destroys his last vile of super serum. Lex says "If it wasn't for you I could have saved the world" and Superman says "if you really cared about saving the world, you would have done it years ago". Granted Superman could have done exactly what Lex planned on doing in terms of curing cancer and stuff if he applied himself in that way and SHOULD have done that, but the point in this occuring in story is to demonstrate that Lex is not much better then Superman in terms of having potential to do better things then what they are doing. But at least Superman uses what he can do to help other people whereas Lex Luthor is more caught up in obtaining glory for being great then actually using his greatness. So Superman is more of an ideal then a character. His whole point is, rather then being worried about whether you're better or worse then other people, you just contribute what you can at whatever capacity that may be. Because you're doing a disservice to yourself and people around you for slacking off. Superman's potential is essentially limitless, therefore his capacity to give and do right is limitless, ergo he is fulfilling his duty. And his conflict is all about whether he's doing something the right way or if there's a better way he could have utilized his power.

[@TheSergio1021]

That sounds like a great story... IF it meant that the story ended that way. But it doesnt, because Superman continues after that. The point Woolie makes around 19:20 admits this and Pat says "that's all I wanted" because that's the part of the argument that Woolie and you seemed to gloss over or downplay. I k ow this is years old but whatever, I'm on a nostalgia trip.

[@andieallison6792]

People who think Superman is perfect don't know Superman.

[@williamalbatross4677]

“The perfect person demeans your life by existing” what the fuck is wrong with this person

[@ZoMbi5lAy3r]

DC/Vertigo's Sandman was not perfect, he was pretty human, with failings and emotional breakdowns and all that. So don't compare Sandman and Superman, Woolie, plz

[@dummydummy3100]

And Superman doesn't have failings and emotional breakdowns?

[@mannythelazyguy6529]

@@dummydummy3100 in some comics yes, luckily for him, emotional problems are just author based in the comics

[@20marvelman]

Man I can see how personal Matt takes this. Woolie and Pat are fine with things getting heated because they know it’s not that a big deal.

[@jugemujugemu4690]

its really weird how childish he gets

[@humanitysfinest9795]

Its cringe when he should know that the "digs" thrown at each other is nothing more than comedic banter. But still decides to be childish. Tina taught him well...

[@chiyo-chanholocaust8143]

*From Wikipedia:* "the "Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting."

[@saorlathesurly]

"I'm so tired of green. It's been around for hundreds of years, it's so played out and boring. Why can't we just invent new colors?"

[@pentexsucks43]

Who's the character in your profile picture? Looks very familiar...

[@saorlathesurly]

@@pentexsucks43 Loki from the comic "Thor and Loki: Double Trouble" with the art done by Gurihiru

[@beardyjosh4108]

I know I'm incredibly late to the party but the answer Woolie was looking for at the end was Sherlock Holmes.

[@kap1618]

You can make the same mr perfect arguments about batman.

[@Jebsucks]

Those arguments have *way* more weight when applied to Batman, as he tends to act like an actual Mary Sue when put in a comic with other heroes, stuff happens like everyone else present- usually highly intelligent and creative people- loosing their deductive skills so that Batman can toot his horn and look cool.

[@pinchman2946]

Ok, to try and crystalize this point better. The issue is not that superman is invincible, its that he is often lacking in an interesting personality, flaws, or meaningful struggle. For instance, woolie brought up the concept of writing about a god. You know what many mythological gods have? Flaws and struggles. Look at zeus, he has to be forced by all the other gods to stop being tyrannical, and gets into a ton of mischief. Odin, the most powerful god in the norse pantheon, and he's doomed to die on ragnarok. Osiris, torn apart by his brother and sewn back together by his wife. Horus, has to fight a giant snake monster everyday and gets swallowed every time. These figures are not compelling necessarily due to their power, but from their struggles and trials, both of which hold weight.

[@Yal_Rathol]

all of which gets undercut in superman's case because, thanks to each run being semi-self contained, you know that whatever happens at the end of this story is going to get reset for the new guy. status quo reigns supreme. his struggles are pointless because you CAN'T have him endure endless struggle befitting an immortal god-figure when in 6 months the new guy takes over and says "yeah, not a fan of that idea. scrap it."

[@ryanrod6990]

and yet Yahweh/Jehova is Omnipotent and omniscient, but lets innocent children suffer.

[@pinchman2946]

@@ryanrod6990 wat

[@Soulful96QC]

The original Ghost Rider (Johnny Blaze, not Phantom Rider) unlike most superheroes had a beginning, middle and ending in his first run.

[@Beaze17]

15:56 jeez man lol . Some runs are self contained yes but a lot of runs are just the exact opposite of what Woolie said. Some runs are indeed just another chapter in that characters overall life. It is one giant sprawling timeline. At least as far as marvel goes. Each of these people have an established character history. Some runs are self contained but they are usually labeled as their own thing form the get go. Like batman the dark knight returns. that's a separate self contained run. That has no bearing on the 800 or so issues of detective comics lol

[@unversedhero6028]

Translation: Pat is wrong and being irrationally hateful towards a character and medium while on other videos he praises anime for the same shit.

[@rodney2x48]

Any good writer can make Superman interesting. They've been doing it for decades and they'll keep doing it for years to come. The problem isn't the character, it's the writing. Grant Morrison, Joe Kelly, Joe Casey, Geoff Johns, Alan Moore, Dan Jurgens, Peter Tomasi, Mark Waid, Richard Donner and many others have made Superman work and have made tons of good Superman stories. The ''he's just too perfect'' argument doesn't work unless you've literally read jack shit about the character and you're just talking out of your ass.

[@TyranusRex721]

That is the problem with Pat. He reads just enough to form an opinion, but does not bother to research a topic well enough to know or understand it.

[@BigEd45EX]

I agree with both of you guys. I also feel like All Star was the wrong comic to give him if the concept of Superman being perfect makes him mad, since so much of it is centered around him doing these impossible trials. I feel like Woolie recommended it because it's a great book, but it didn't have any sway with him because it's got a lot of aspects he was dead-set to dislike from the get-go. I would have gone with What's So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way? Or Superman VS the Elite since it's built around Clark's morals being challenged and how he handles that as a person and a hero.

[@vengeanceproductions]

Pat doesn't want to like Superman. He read All-Star specifically to find more reasons to hate him. Pointing to other Superman stories to try to change his mind is futile because he's already concluded himself to hating the character.

[@louiesalmon3932]

You're drawing the wrong conclusion. All those writers making good Superman stories does not mean that Superman is a good character. It means those writers are talented enough to make something good out of garbage.

[@litovietbui]

Each arc or run by a particular writer is meant to be treated as it's own self contained story. Yeah, it's part of a larger continuity, but it's more loose rather than a literal concrete thing. You don't need/have to be up to date to know what's happening. They do a pretty decent job of informing the reader of the context needed for that current story they are telling. It begins and then it ends and then the next writer picks up the ball after that and does his own run. And that's just the mainstream stuff which is it's own thing. Trying to compare that to Jojo or Fullmetal Alchemist is comparing two inherently different things. There's the indie stuff that's more along those lines with a story told with a singular voice like Saga, Fables, Sex Criminals, Walking Dead, etc.

[@Yal_Rathol]

sure, that all may be true. but part of the conversation was, rather than the next writer taking a crack at superman for the 10 billionth time, hows about they make their own damn characters or merge ideas from other, less well-known properties to make something new? and while you don't HAVE to be up to date to understand the plot, the issue with people like me and pat is that we _physically_ cannot bring ourselves to start a story without knowing the backstory. if i don't start from issue 1, i'm scared there's a plot point i'll miss, a character who's arc i won't understand, an in-joke that's hilarious that references issue 200 from 1956 of the 12th run of the 3rd arc that i just won't get because _i didn't read that comic_. i can't watch doctor who, i can't skip filler unless i've already seen it once, i can't read comics. neurotic? yes. clashes with the comic industry? yes. hence why people like pat, people like me, prefer manga, games and indie comics. because they start, they run, _they end_. i don't have to dig through 70+ years of backstory just to get an in-joke or understand why this character wears green stripes. and that's where the comparison begins.

[@litovietbui]

It's just the nature of the business. People like to read stuff with Superman or Batman or whatever. Nobody cares to read about new things. Like with Street Fighter 3 when they replaced the old characters with a whole new cast. It pretty much killed the Street Fighter franchise for a while. Marvels been trying to do this "All new all Different" thing recently in the comics where they are replacing mainstay characters with new ones and their sales have been on a steady decline. You really don't have to dig through anything really at all. I think it's the mentality that people think mainstream comics is this one long story is what trips people up.The continuity of mainstream comics as I said is very loose. It really doesn't matter. All you need is a very basic understanding of the characters to follow along in a run. It's like The Simpsons. Do you need to watch all 28 season to enjoy just one good episode of the show? The X-men movies also kind of mirrors this. The movies' continuity is just a straight up mess, but you can watch Logan for example as it's own thing and it's still a good story by itself.

[@Yal_Rathol]

and yet, those marvel movies are radically different from the comics in a number of ways, yet they sell like hotcakes. the shift to 3D killed some franchises, but look what it did for mario and sonic. so no, change doesn't always kill an industry. and keep in mind that gamers and comic readers are NOTORIOUSLY finicky, only matched by "people who read the book, then watch the movie". iron man was a lesser property in the 90's, same with the avengers. tell me, what was one of the highest-grossing movies of 2012? "the avengers" you say? did you read what i said? did you listen to pat? "can't watch doctor who because there are episodes missing". this is the mentality of people like us. it's not a matter of "it's a cohesive story". let me put it this way, are there entire parts of jojo you can skip without missing anything? yes. are there entire parts you SHOULD skip because they're pointless and bad? yes. would someone like you skip them? probably. would someone like me or pat skip them? _not if there was a gun to my head._ and the movies are a separate thing, because like i mentioned with the marvel movies, they're a departure from the comics. and some movies can be watched stand-alone, like logan. yes, it's a confused mental state. no, you won't be able to argue someone out of it.

[@dakota4384]

Shhhhh, only supes comics exsist

[@xXVolteon50Xx]

I disagree with Matt's view on the continuity in Comics based on established characters vs. Stories in games based on licensed material. The function of stories in Video Games(excluding VNs) are to drive the player from set-piece to set-piece, so they can get to the core component of the product, the Gameplay. Neither the player, nor the publisher treat filler stories as an official spin-off or continuation to the licensed work. It's just a way to justify making more games out of an established universe without getting too repetitive. But the stories in Comic books _ARE_ the core component of the product. So its understandable that consistency errors, and unneeded continuations can be more jarring to their audience.

[@EverydayYounglife]

If Superman had concrete rules and stayed within them like [Stands] he may have a shot at actually being a character instead of a plot device.

[@coha1132]

Speak Evil Stands have bunches of rules that are broken all the time

[@ArgusJord]

Corvo Attano Well yeah, but even when that rule is broken, it doesn't make them *fucking invincible, immortal, and able to solve any problem without worrying about danger*. The problem is that Superman breaks one rule and ends up without flaws. Kira got *stand boost after stand boost* and still got killed. Kars became the ultimate being and still lost. Even Jotaro, the king of "fuck you I win," got his shit ultimately kicked in by Pucci. Tl;dr - At least Stands and their users don't become God whenever they break the rules.

[@vengeanceproductions]

Giorno did. Also show me Superman breaking his "rules".

[@warlerker]

Well if being filled with actual literal shit is what you want Man of the Atom , then I guess an example of superman "breaking the rules" is them introducing Doomsday. "SUPERMAN IS DEAD" Literally before they even release next weeks novel. "Oh no hes not hes asleep wait for next issue." In that same comic Doomsday is legitimately described as having 1000x the physical power of superman. Literally means fuckall. He can even surpass things 1000x his strength without trying. Even if they fucking kill him. Stop pretending that theres a character there, when there isn't one.

[@vengeanceproductions]

"Literally before they even release next weeks novel. "Oh no hes not hes asleep wait for next issue."" He was dead, though. Eradicator confirmed it after he brought Clark back. That "healing coma" thing was always a common misconception. "In that same comic Doomsday is legitimately described as having 1000x the physical power of superman." No, they were evenly matched right up to the end. They're evenly matched basically every time Doomsday shows up. "Stop pretending that theres a character there, when there isn't one." You didn't talk about his character though, you talked out your ass about Doomsday because you couldn't argue about anything relevant.

[@SuperWHIIITE]

I agree with both sides but especially Woolie mentioning it takes a good writer to make something out of the character. Because you know what was the best Superman story ever created? Fucking Trigun. Think about it.

[@Triixster]

I don't dislike superman, but yes, there are other characters who are better characters. He's too perfect. But it's because he's the original...but yeah, it's stupid. I liked Justice League animated series interpretation of the characters. Superman was heavily nerfed in it, and was certainly not perfect, but I prefer that. I also like the boyscout attitude in it.

[@Jebsucks]

Oh yes, DCAU Supes is a *wonderful* version of the character for sure... I'd be hard pressed to think of any versions I like more to be honest.

[@malikoniousjoe]

Triixster The animated universe is honestly one of the few times I feel invested in DC works aside from good ol Adam West Batman for the fun

[@inaccurateprophecy8971]

To be fair the comics have him have enemies outside his ballpark that he’s extremely hardpressed to beat like Cyborg Superman, Darkseid, and Amazo. He gets rekt even by fellow Justice League member Martian Manhunter.

[@bearandthebull2372]

The DCAU version is interesting not because he's weakened,but because he nerfs himself to the point of it permanently weakening him at times. In the darkseid episode he finally let's loose and starts acting like his comic counterpart in terms of power,in which he obliterates darkseid as any comic version would.It makes him INFINITELY more interesting since it implies at every moment of his life he's holding back and allowing himself to feel pain simply to be human.

[@EverydayYounglife]

If a recurring Villan that has a power like Killer Queen existed in DC that would make SuperMan a much more vulnerable person.

[@dakota4384]

Yea its Darkseid... Darkseid...

[@dragonknight1560]

So Pat is a fan on Injustice Superman from the other world while AngryJoe declares war on Pat for his hatred on Superman.

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

Angryjoe declares war and pat just sits down and plays persona 4 until joe gets tired and forgets

[@dragonknight1560]

@@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat I would pay to see that.

[@AngryHomunculus]

I know I'm late to the conversation, but I'm just going to say this: my favourite version of Superman is the one from the DCAU, cos there were times when he genuinely acted human, e.g. When the League thought that Flash died fighting Lex Luthor, and Superman just tells Lex how much he wishes he could end him right there, but he's not that kind of person

[@death2boredom338]

I love DCAU so I've gone through plenty of KZbin vids and you can see comments about comic fans not liking how "depowered" that version of Supes is and how much love Bats gets.

[@mangoman5693]

If you're going to compare Manga and Western Comics, the closest thing that comes close to long running superhero comics is Gundam, with how many different series by different people there are. If you're going to compare the mediums it would be the average manga vs an indie comic, because both are creator owned. Also, you can't use ONE's work as evidence for why Western superheroes don't work, when the superpowers in OPM and MP100 are completely ancillary, the stories are indictments of shounen tropes in particular, both are about how meaningless "superpowers" are, and neither of them are meant to tie into some larger shared universe being created by and maintained by hundreds of different writers and artists across multiple generations.

[@kneeofjustice9619]

But Gundam usually makes new worlds with new characters unlike western comics which use the same characters over and over again.

[@ASR-Ansori]

@@kneeofjustice9619 That's just not true, new characters are always being created, even if you're just talkin about superhero comics. Spidey, Mar-Vell, She-Hulk, Venom, etc weren't created at the same time.

[@chuckles3116]

@@ASR-Ansoriame one Marvel/DC character as iconic as Char Aznable that was actually allowed to completely leave the story and never come back in the main continuity.

[@Poopscipade]

I love all the comments pointing out Matt specifically acting childish while listening to four grown men argue about comic books.

[@4ever3052pac]

If you are a DC fan or a Superman fan, do NOT go into the comment section! You will have blinding rage.

[@spencerpommier806]

The fact that Chris Claremont exist ruins Pat and Liam's argument alone

[@chuckles3116]

[walks up onstage] *ahem* “One More Day”

[@ekim64cub]

I do not dislike Superman, but I like other characters more.

[@jriibzmodus4792]

Same here

[@seraphiim444]

the chrono comparison makes no sense because you’re taking an active role of PLAYING AS chrono and he’s also a silent protagonist. you can’t find chrono insufferable because the only things he does are the things YOU as the player are making him do. and he doesn’t say shit so he can’t get on your nerves that way.

[@mysteryjune]

Pat would love me, I'm full of flaws

[@tensugarcubes]

I still think about this argument often because of how weird it is that there's this subset of people like me who somehow got super into Japanese comics and cartoons despite having American/western versions so readily available. Ideally, they should be more appealing to me as a westerner but they just aren't. There's so many versions of the heroes and characters that it's unappealing to try and jump in because what if I like this interpretation but not the next one? Or if I start with a popular version that I don't like and maybe the unpopular one I'd actually like? It's too overwhelming and time consuming. At the very least if I liked Naruto, I know where to jump in to follow his adventure. That said, Western comics give you a chance to see different interpretations. Maybe a character you thought had wasted potential gets a good writer and artist in another run? Both structures have advantages and disadvantages, and I really prefer the manga structure but that's not to say western structure is inherently wrong if you don't mind digging through recommendations and comics to find the version you like.

[@Jepze158]

I get how it is hard to get into capeshit but people have this idea that you have to read everything and not just handful of runs or stories that are good.

[@noluckonlyhate]

I love it when wollie and Pat argue because wollie starts a fire then Pat tries to put it out but wollie shoves more wood into the fire then Liam tries to help by putting a small cup of water on it. then it goes back and fourth then Matt grabs lighter fluid and just empty's it on the fire then flips off Pat then they stop and let it burn away.

[@JOEMB100]

Gotta agree with Pat on this one. When you have a character who is perfect in an action and suspense based comic, there is no action or suspense. Therefore making a comic which has zero substance and is in no way entertaining. If superman were at least clever in how he solved things or perhaps could actually die then maybe it wouldn't be the most unbearable character ever. (Also I'm starting to lose respect for Woolie, hes acting just like a guy I know who thinks everything people make is fine and there is never any bad media content ever. I like to call it the "if you look deep into this festering pile of shit there was a decent idea in here" mentality.

[@KingJosiahlolz]

"could actually die" This is retarded.

[@matthewlewis7499]

You seem to not understand how "plot armor" works, he's the main character, that's why he wins so often and doesn't die, there are literally millions of potential threats in DC that could kill Superman in seconds (red solar radiation, energy absorbing villians, any of the 20 types of kryptonite, any magic-user that can so much as toss a fire spell, any villain stronger then him), but he's the MC so bad guys don't win . Same reason Batman has never been shot in the mouth section of his cowl, nor had his head ripped off by a stronger villain then him, same reason Wolverine hasn't been decapitated by an adamantium blade. Pat will shit on Superman all day, (I believe it's mainly because he's an alien, which pat hates), but he'd praise equally invincible and overpoweringly written characters like Guts, Batman, and One-Punch man.

[@flooboo1502]

But the thing is, Batman isn't perfect, he is human, he can die, he has had broken bones and gone insane, he is not perfect. Same with wolverine. Superman is boring and way too perfect. No other hero "wins" as much as Superman does, nobody is as perfect as he is, that is why he is boring.

[@matthewlewis7499]

+flooboo1502 Every night batman or punisher goes out and prep-God's his way into not being killed by any number of the hundreds of thugs he fights a night he's being proven as the "coolest and the strongest who can never loose for long", same with Wolverine versus any enemy he can't stab that knows his abilities, which is all of them. superman isn't perfect, he just has a higher power set to deal with the higher threat level he faces, he loses fights in comics and movies proportionally the exact same as any other heroes' win count versus an even threat. But some writers and non-comic readers like pat see his strength and think he's "too good" just cause a rando thug isn't a match for him, and thus write him off as boring. Any Superman Ep from justice League TAS or Superman TAS will show you how fun, enjoyable, and interesting he can be.

[@matthewlewis7499]

+flooboo1502 Every night batman or punisher goes out and prep-God's his way into not being killed by any number of the hundreds of thugs he fights a night he's being proven as the "coolest and the strongest who can never loose for long", same with Wolverine versus any enemy he can't stab that knows his abilities, which is all of them. superman isn't perfect, he just has a higher power set to deal with the higher threat level he faces, he loses fights in comics and movies proportionally the exact same as any other heroes' win count versus an even threat. But some writers and non-comic readers like pat see his strength and think he's "too good" just cause a rando thug isn't a match for him, and thus write him off as boring. Any Superman Ep from justice League TAS or Superman TAS will show you how fun, enjoyable, and interesting he can be.

[@leblanc3536]

it’s kinda funny how one of their biggest complaints is about Superman continuing in perpetuity, but they still love Dragonball

[@jugemujugemu4690]

in all fairness they do mean the 'canon' existence of comic stories in general about given characters, not like the brand of merch and stuff and they do dislike Super too

[@death2boredom338]

Where did you get that? They follow it because its around and strongly tied to what they do and its of course something from their childhood, but even back in these days they gave DBZ, Super, Toriyama, and some of the characters plenty of shit. They're friends and acquaintances of Plague, just watch his videos for a more in depth feel of what their general opinions may be like.

[@leblanc3536]

@@death2boredom338 and people still follow Superman because it’s around and something from their childhood I take potshots at anime fans the same way they take pot shots at comics

[@death2boredom338]

​@@leblanc3536 Ok? But you're obviously wrong about what you said, they do love quite a few aspects of DB namely Z and Super. I don't understand wanting to stoop to the level of someone you seem to dislike either. There are clearly fans of both like Matt and Woolie and even Pat likes Marvel. All I get from what you're saying is an image of mutual destruction due to a refusal to compromise.

[@fuckiopussigetti453]

GOGEETER BLOOO​@@death2boredom338

[@Edward-Not-Elric]

I can sum up the entirety of western comics with one analogy: _It's like panning for gold in a river made of diarrhea._ Sifting though shit for hours and hours just to find $2.25 worth of gold just isn't worth it to me.

[@RIPCompanionCube]

I don't agree with Liam, James Bond is written as perfect as a man can be. Perfect, quaffed hair, stunning face with a jawline that can cut a steak. Lean, but strong. Always throws out the right quip for the right scenario, always bests the villain AND his convoluted death-traps. Always gets the girl(s). It's Superman Syndrome: Mortal Edition.

[@Khotgor]

... but james bond fucks up so much; he gets caught by koreans or whatever in Die Another Die... his wife n' girlfriends die constantly... in Casino Royale, he is captured n' tortured with his nutsacks being sacked. Haven't read any of the books, so I am not sure if its different than the shows, but the shows of 007 show that James Bond has some flaws n' failures that were not intentional.

[@RIPCompanionCube]

I don't necessarily think his significant others dying count as flaws. Nobody can stop death. Even Superman can't stop it.

[@Khotgor]

Your wrong. Superman made the Earth turn backwards to save Lois after she drowned in Quicksand. Check fucking Mate.

[@RIPCompanionCube]

Eh, not really. If we're going by bad ways of saving people in the movies, he totally could have saved Pa Kent in Man Of Steel, but didn't because his dad waved him away? Sure he may have been outed as an alien, but isn't it worth it to save your father? Even if we don't take that into account, making the earth turn backwards wouldn't only not save Lois, but it would throw the polarity of the earth into wack and kill hundreds of millions if not billions of people.

[@ASR-Ansori]

You can tell there's a lack of experience on Superman comics looking at most of these comments... Like saying he's perfect (strike number 1 for anyone who claims this about Superman 'cause at best they've seen memey images of his Silver Age incarnation and that's where their knowledge ends, or they read a bad CBR article which is what the SBF's source of information tends to be it feels like xD) or that DCAU Supes is better (who has great stories and good VAs but tends to be the jockiest and blandest Superman throughout most of the DCAU, and is frankly among the ones that is challenged the least by his foes compared to most other incarnations... the best stories and moments he has are usually direct adaptations of the stellar Bronze Age Superman of John Byrne's run or of around that era)

[@Manfromthenorth0551]

This video can be boiled down to 2 things. Superman sucks because he's perfect. And Western comics should be structured like manga.

[@MathiasAblazed]

Matthew Hilliker And both points, while not completely perfect, are still VERY strong.

[@artrosemaloca4663]

'cept anime sucks.

[@mariofan1ish]

Anime does suck. Manga on the other hand tends to be a bit better.

[@randomfox12245]

I actually find it really frustrating the way Woolie keeps trying to fucking dominate this discussion and everyone who has a different opinion from him is wrong and he needs to fucking talk over them, like holy shit Woolie.

[@azuresaiyan9005]

Their opinion is built on ignorance and perception, thus wrong.

[@Jebsucks]

I mean, so is Woolie's, it's pretty obvious he's not got a clue what he's talking about. "Superman is a genre" my ass.

[@li-limandragon9287]

Woolie has a point on not getting worked up over westen comic books, but I agree 100% with Pat *fuck Superman* he's so boring he makes Aquaman look badass

[@senorsnout4417]

Aquaman *is* badass, tho. People just refuse to give him credit because it's just a running joke at this point.

[@slothfulboi6558]

Señor Snout Honestly I'd go Aquaman over Superman anyday. He's probably got more interesting stories over the years compared to Supe's

[@li-limandragon9287]

Hope Khal Drogo does him justice

[@TheDanishGuyReviews]

Li-Li Mandragon Gotta come to his royal defense here: He rules the ocean and all sea life. He sent sharks to eat Darkseid. He stopped an alien invasion by tapping into their fish leftovers and shutting their brains down. Basically, Aquaman should already be people's first choice, in my opinion. ~ TDG

[@li-limandragon9287]

I know, he controls 70% of the Earth certainty better than white bread Superman.

[@brian.jrmontoya3227]

Well, the people here are about as knowledgeable as Pat is when it comes to Western Comics.

[@datanotfoundpleasetryagain3559]

Therein lies my biggest problem with the Super Best Friends sphere. With the exception of Matt, they either don't give a shit about western media or just straight-up hate what it is. It's as if the shit that's made in Japan is way more divine, untouchable, and practically perfect in every way than the shit made in America, where everything is poorly written and poorly produced and society is crumbling based on the media we consume. It's obvious favoritism, and it's absolutely disingenuous to the centuries of films, TV, literature, comics, etc. that was made in America that shaped the cultural zeitgeist we have today. Anime wouldn't exist the way it is today if Osamu Tezuka didn't watch Bambi over 80 times in the theatre. The concept of a character getting thrust into another world was codified by Dante, Lewis Carroll, and L. Frank Baum. And even though Japan had a foothold in video games for decades (and just to make things fair, I still wish they did. I love shit like Castlevania and Smash just as much as the next guy), guess where they first got their start? In a laboratory in New York. And what do people like Pat do in return? Just laugh at the crap that comes out from one end and endlessly praise the crap that comes out from another. This section of the internet is literally just the wojak "Thing VS. Japanese thing" meme. I get it. Berserk is a perfect story. But there's far more worth looking at that's not from Japan. I'm not saying that western media is as a whole better than Japanese media. But c'mon, if you just looked at stuff that isn't coming out recently and will be forgotten in a few years time, then maybe you'll appreciate it more.

[@Exclufii]

It's weirdly satisfying to hear Liam defend Pat like this, hah, I get to imagine they're friends in my dumb parasocial KZbin imagination

[@fuckiopussigetti453]

Too bad they're not as cool as my friends Stimros Hallabad, Nate Mookey and Aaron Jewish

[@psnfailout000]

Superman isn’t written to be perfect though...

[@SomeBraveApollo]

The thing he's missing is that Superman isn't meant to be the protagonist you root for, he's meant to be the ideal you strive towards.

[@malikoniousjoe]

BritishCuteBoy Death Battle?

[@louiesalmon3932]

But he's an impossible ideal to strive for because he's perfect, which makes it even worse that he's "supposed" to be that.

[@Jepze158]

@@louiesalmon3932 He isn't perfect though. Well at least in good writers hand he isn't.

[@ciggy_]

does anyone know if pat has heard about max landis stuff about superman, doesn't he kinda bring up the importance of clark as a character? He might enjoy it?

[@TomboTime]

if Superman is a Christ allegory, then Lex Luthor very much represents the rising Atheist mentality, and that's why most people like him more nowadays.

[@Yal_Rathol]

TomboTime i don't know about where you live, but where i live, most atheists don't wear vomit green trench coats, nor do they steal cakes. based on those two facts and nothing else, i will declare you wrong.

[@TomboTime]

I've seen some shit, man. Atheists are terrorizing this fair town. Bakery's everywhere are going bankrupt. Moving out of town in sheer peril of the nasty Atheists. Incidentally, puke green trenchcoat sales are booming here.

[@Abdega]

Yal Rathol They do where I live and steal from the Cake-theists

[@aboveaveragefrog4208]

Tombocartoons I mean that’s a reading but I don’t think that’s what it is. From what I see anyway, it’s usually just superman being criticised for being a Mary Sue and Lex always was characterised by his hatred of superman being perfect or a Mary Sue

[@ryanrod6990]

does that make swamp thing the modern day Cernunnos? One with the forest, died and reborn, protects nature?

[@Thebes342]

Looking back now, I feel like Matt's stance on this whole thing is even more flawed than Woolie's. Comparing X-Men and Superman doesn't even make sense, because X-Men doesn't specifically have a main character and usually focuses on an entire group, while Superman's main focus is this singular character that's surviving purely off of nostalgia. There's definitely a lot more you can do with X-Men as a whole than Superman. Even then, X-Men could stand to end too, it's not like it's unique or impossible to have multiple different stories about a group of outcasts or anything. And honestly, Liam's point on Matt saying things need to end or go under all the time definitely ruins Matt's entire argument and even makes him look like a bit of a hypocrite.

[@whitegemgames]

I’m in the middle, I still like western comics but the ever looming knowledge of the status quo is frustrating and makes it harder to stay invested, and is frustrating when any interesting developments or lasting changes are undone

[@jugemujugemu4690]

same its part of why i stopped comics for the mostly

[@fuckiopussigetti453]

​It's kind of why I dropped DBS after the fuckin Zamasu & TOP shit​ @@jugemujugemu4690

[@bennytrinh7228]

"This perfect person demeans my life just by existing!" Someone has an extreme case of napoleon complex.

[@wisdommanari6701]

Uh napoleon was actually pretty awesome

[@UCannotDefeatMyShmeat]

Wasn’t Napoleon above average height and the shortness was just a joke that spread

[@NovaBombardment]

I love how the whole things starts with "I read this comic out of pure spite because people I don't know pestered me endlessly to do so" and then Woolie expects a really nuanced critique out of that. I think a lot of people online tend to forget that people can in fact be openly biased about something, and that it's completely normal. When Woolie comes poking the stick to the person that clearly just hates something openly, it comes off as really snobbish for him to try and take the high ground in an argument that isn't actually important to the person he's poking. Pat's often accused of grabbing at straws, but that's mainly because he doesn't actually have a super thought out view on something other than that he hates it. You don't always have a perfect court case level argument for something you don't really care about.

[@death2boredom338]

Woolie used the wrong term and ended up "changing what words mean", Superman and X-Men have become archetypes with established troupes attached to them. The thing is, as a mostly anime/manga person who knows the western stuff from cartoons, movies, and these kinds of convos, anime/manga have the same thing. There are constantly repeated character archetypes and story troupes that act as shorthands and guidelines that multiple authors and artists tackle that create some great, some good, some average, some bad, and some horrible things. The issue is, there isn't a single character name to call out and attach to the bad ones. Sure there is, tsundere and shounen as terms to attach, but the name Clark Kent Superman is easily attached to a character that you can consider as something from a great challenge or a pointless venture to change a horrible concept. Personally I see both sides of this but really do have to stand strongly against Matt and Woolie, especially Matt. Pat's point to me was very simple to grasp, what he dislikes isn't the stories that Superman takes place in or anything along those lines but the existence of this perfect individual that just never has a flaw. Bringing up that Kryptonite is a "flaw" was just a horrible counter and another act of changing what words mean because its not a flaw but a weakness. Now whether its a fact that in reality there are stories that display Superman with flaws isn't really what I care about here, its simply that what Pat and Liam dislike and sick of are the amount of stories where he does not.

[@dantoon25]

People are ragging on Woolie, but Matt probably said the stupidest horseshit in the entire discussion.

[@azuresaiyan9005]

They despise that someone dare defend Superman, especially in a podcast filled with misinformation.

[@pentexsucks43]

5 years later and you're still right. He said like 4 sentences and somehow had the worst take imaginable. He was PISSED

[@egg2520]

The conversation was about Superman, but the take away was Pat is very bitter

[@HibHab69]

"The most interesting thing Superman ever did was die." DESTROYED.

[@Betsy2Heavens]

I somehow agree with nobody and everybody in this discussion.

[@DJP317STAR]

This is 4 years late and I don't care. Woolie is the Master of What-about-ism

[@stippyme567]

The ways Superman can be interesting without dying or turning evil are him being like doctor manhattan and struggling in controlling his humanity with his demigod powers or characters viewing Superman as an event and showing their perspective of him and how he changes others.

[@Abdega]

I think he’s really interesting as a mentor like he was set up to be in Superman/Shazam First Thunder

[@peterquill9543]

I see where Pat is coming from but I disagree a lot. Although western comics do have long lasting characters they can stay fresh and interesting. Different writers can jump in and add new and exciting things to them which keeps them original. If you want closer there are plenty of stories that tell the ends of those characters. In a way it's like a CYOA where you can jump in and choose your origin or say that a certain ending is where a character ends. And if the big two isn't your cup of tea there are plenty of Image books that end and other companies like Valiant that have lasting and meaningful stakes.

[@chrisgostanian6753]

Or you can have One More Day, where a new writer jumps in and fucks everything up because he is a petty shit.

[@peterquill9543]

That was mainly editorial, especially Joe Quesada. JMS' Spider-Man run was pretty good despite that. And the whole Gwen's kids thing

[@mangoman5693]

Peter Quill Don't forget the Spider God.

[@peterquill9543]

Oh god I forgot about that. That was so dumb

[@ArgusJord]

Ah, Woolie. Woolie, I love you, but... "The most interesting thing Crono can do is die." Using this as a similarity between Crono and Superman. Let's dissect this a bit shall we? Crono's death was interesting because he had to blindly attack an enemy to save his friends, not knowing if they'd be okay, not knowing if he'd actually live, not knowing if he'd be sacrificing himself for nothing. Meanwhile, SUPERMAN "dies" but HEY, luckily his brainiac machine saves him and everything is great! How *convenient!* Also "you put Crono alone in a room, you have nothing." I guess we're just ignoring the entire prison break, which Crono can do entirely by himself save for the dragon tank? That's a pretty fucking interesting scene.

[@glestrade5112]

Every time the best friends talk about comics, the comics fan in me cringes a bit. Way to misunderstand the character, Pat.

[@fellicojelisarrivera8434]

Just my two cents: I think the big problem with Superman is actually his fandom and the writing of the character. As an Outsider to all this with some understanding of the character and history of Supes, I think it all boils down to expectation: what anyone actually wants out of the character. The character's problem can be divided into two aspects: expectations about his Power and expectations about his Moral character. These two, from my POV, seem to be the main problem because often times they conflict with each other in a bad way and prevent Superman from having meaningful character conflict. On his Power: This is the superficial problem for Superman. People just want him to be always OP. Its a holdover from the Golden age, when Superman was just a superpowered thug beating up Gangsters, corrupt politicians and solving other social ills of the day with blunt power; and people LIKED that - they wanted an escapist fantasy about a strongman who could get away with beating up Hitler and other real life villains. Some guy once said that "a real Superman story has to have Supes be stronger than what his story needs him to be - other wise you're just talking about Really-strong-man not Superman" (Never mind that this argument can be flipped into "If Superman is too strong for the story, you're talking about God-man not Superman). On his Moral character: since end of the Golden Age, Superman then shifted into being about how to be "Proper Model Citizen"(Likely because of Moral Guardians). This big crux of Superman's character and, I think, the real source of the problem with Superman and his fandom. In short, the fans and writers of Superman always want him to be Morally Composed. Not Morality Perfect, but Morally Well-adjusted. Superman, they say, must know right from wrong, and never ever commit morally gray actions. Because that would taint the character, making him less pure. The escapist fantasy here is that he is a grown man, a well-adjusted, responsible adult with some superpowers, who shows the right way and who you want to be - the role model, the Man of Tomorrow. Another aspect of this is the setting: Metropolis and the world of Superman must presented in a way that it highlights the idealism the character represents. Problem with all these is that it kills any potential for conflict - the very essence of a story and the essence of a PROTAGONIST. We all know the Hero's Journey, we all know how it works; a protagonist undergoes trails that he leaved him changed and developed. Superman's problem is that he tramples all over the Hero's Journey, because of the demands of his character: He always must be OP, never tailored to the story's needs. And, more importantly, He must never be morally compromised - Superman must already be a Grown, Fully Realized Man, who's never confused about right and wrong. In short, Superman is often called boring because he already completed his Hero's Journey, before the story even began! His character development was finished, as a prerequisite for the character. Take Snyder!Superman. Why do you think he's so divisive a portrayal? He's not too powerful and competent enough that Zod and his army (as opposed to the three bullies from Superman II), were able to do the collateral damage they could in Man of Steel. He way unassured himself and on what to do, often debating with his father. And he never smiles because he's in deep thought about his actions and the very world he lived in. He's a person who is still figuring things out as Superman and how to do things right. A protagonist with proper conflict but for some not a good Superman.

[@adamscaife6931]

The thing about superheroes is you can still have tension in self-contained stories, because you can take the existing characters and remimagine them in their own universes e.g. the dark knight and Logan could be pretty tense because you didn't know how things were gonna end in that particular universe (or sub-universe?)

[@TheCreaturesfan1]

Pat's right, the Western comic book industry is stupid. Same rehashing of ideas. just like EVERY batman thing showing the Wayne family dying. Just no creativity over here...

[@Lawlaliet]

Kinda how there's less creativity with mangas as well.

[@tehvenom]

You say western but you mean american.

[@TheCreaturesfan1]

well "Western Hemisphere"

[@mangoman5693]

TheRoboticRonin I'm not a Batman fan, but I have read quite a few Batman comics (3 different arcs, 3 different writers, more than a half-dozen 120-page books), and the death of the Waynes doesn't come up anywhere near as much as it does in movies and games. Out of all the Batman books I've read it's come up only once and it's in Dark Knight Returns.

[@Jebsucks]

I mean, you could say that, you're objectively wrong and probably basing that off how so many non-comic Batman things tend to be origin stories for some reason, but you *can* say it.

[@Gojiro7]

I don't like Superman either, but I think Pat is going full ham into this rage not because he has real rational reasons top to bottom, he just needs to be angry about something, because anger sustains his life force and if he ever mellows out and tries to embrace peace of mind, he'll drop dead like a fly XD and poor Woolie, he just can't fight his bloodline traits of trying to play devils advocate and find the happy medium despite that being the most pointless endeavor when Pats on a moral rampage XD

[@jonathankent1517]

"anger sustains his life force and if he ever mellows out and tries to embrace peace of mind, he'll drop dead like a fly" So in other words, Pat is a Red Lantern Corps member.

[@Gojiro7]

@@jonathankent1517 I never considered that, but Way on point man :D

[@felphero]

If you put a gun to Chrono's head he dies, if you do it to superman he walks away

[@Jebsucks]

Depends what type of gun you put to Superman's head, and trust me, there's a *shitload* of things in comics that can kill Superman stone dead with little effort.

[@Abdega]

@@Jebsucks Yeah, but then DC says “but the money tho” and brings him back later

[@Jebsucks]

@@Abdega The same can be said of any character. Hell, that's arguably more true of Batman than any other DC character, yet we did not, as far as I know, get an angry rant from the Red Goblin about how shitty Batgod is (even though Batgod is way, *way* worse than anything done with Superman. Literal alien god of Tyranny who's death alone nearly made the universe collapse? Batman just needs some prep time, he can totally beat him lol)/

[@1fishmob]

I think you guys should really take a listen to The4thSNake's injustice critique. Mostly because you'd have some pretty choice words for it...

[@undeadtacocody9987]

I like how these can get heated

[@attackofthecopyrightbots]

Whenever pat says “I’m just gonna punch it” he’s basically talking about superboy prime

[@felphero]

I get Pat, we normaly root for the underdog, to whoever is at greater disadvantage right? Superman is literally NEVER at a disadvantage, no matter the foe he's always on top. If anything morally we should root for Lex, taking on the strongest force in the universe with only his brain

[@coryandrews9235]

"James Bond is not perfect."

[@roflcopter_launchpad1116]

Pat's hatred of Superman reminds me of the reason why I hate characters that are seemingly the "best" or "perfect": Envy. "Hey, *I* wanna be like that. I'll never be like that... Why does THIS person get to be like that?! I hate that sonuvabitch!"

[@nabsreplays]

Eh not necessarily. I don't wanna be like Supes. I like stories where characters struggle and grow and actually have a personality. Supes doesn't.

[@TheSergio1021]

One of the few times Pat and Liam agreed and were both right

[@JackieKog]

Fuck Wolverine: The End. Read Death of Wolverine, that shit great, man.

[@azuresaiyan9005]

That's far from the best Wolverine story. The original limited series and Origin are much better.