Scales and Gauges Part 8 - Why did Lionel Use Three Rails?

Why did some of the early model train manufacturers use three rails? Lionel, Marx, and Marklin used a center rail. Why? Prototype railroads don't have a center rail. Or did some of them have that? Well....
So a look into early model trains and motor technology reveals the answer. Early electric motors were often AC motors. And while later DC motors were the norm, in. 1910 such was not the case. And for several good reasons. But this opens up a problem in track design. when a train goes around a reversing section of track the polarity changes. With DC motors this is a simple fix using two DC reversing switches. But in AC the direction of the train is determined not by track polarity but by the polarity of the coil magnets in the motor. I early models this required a switch on the locomotive. Later a relay in the locomotive could reverse the direction but the AC current at the track stayed the same. So the easy fix was to run the hot leg of the AC current through a center rail and the neutral at both outside rails. Problem solved. But at the expense of a realistic track. But as these were toy trains, it didn't seem to matter. Until later when people wanted a better-looking track.

[@VintageRenewed]

Keep in mind that with 0 gauge The curves are not measured in radius but actually in diameter So the 027 is 27 inch diameter curve etc

[@ToyManTelevision]

Oh!!! Thanks.

[@ToyManTelevision]

And that explains how me very old Lionel was able to go round on a 4x8 plywood with a truss bridge in the center of the end.

[@VintageRenewed]

@@ToyManTelevision Yep all three rail o gauge turns are measured in diameter. Which actually makes it interesting because if using older prewar and postwar you are sometimes able to fit more o gauge than ho Because for example, an o31 turn ends up having a radius of about 15 inches, which is tighter than what you would usually run HO on

[@ToyManTelevision]

@@VintageRenewed and O 27…. OMG.

[@scottb8175]

One of the Lionel strange facts is that some locomotives have a much longer wheelbase than the minimum radius they can run through. Eat your heart out Rivarossi.

[@FunAtDisney]

There is just something about a classic 3-rail Lionel train the screams nostalgia and Christmas morning!

[@ohrazda1956]

This man woman team is just hysterical. I can't tell you the lasting impression this dynamic production has left upon me as an educational product.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi!! And gee wow! Thanks!!

[@junkerup]

entertaining description of the tracks

[@azroger7526]

Thanks for the explanation. As a child, I had an 027 in the early 50's. You spoke of having a switch on the loco to change direction. Mine did the direction change automatically every time the power was interrupted. First forward, then off, then backward, then off, then forward, ... On mine, you turned the power on and off with the transformer. This feature was also engaged whenever you took a curve too fast. It would rock over enough to lift the center electrode and the train would stop. Very annoying for a young boy with a need for speed. 😁

[@jeremygeorgia4943]

I think the switch had three positions. You could lock it in one direction, or you could put it in automatic mode. I think there was also a bi-directional automatic mode too. I don't remember. I think on some, one of the outer rails was used to trigger the whistle car.

[@seanblanck819]

I have owned Lionel postwar trains my whole life but only for around my Christmas tree. The last two years I expanded into more post war and built a nice layout in the garage. I have found the three rail system to be so much easier to deal with than when I was doing DCC. Chips, codes and hand held remotes ugh!. Pretty cool seeing actual three rail system on the street.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks!! Most people don’t know some railroads did that.

[@seanblanck819]

@@ToyManTelevision Speaking of 3 rail model trains. I have seen another type of three rail where there is an outside powered rail. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWmwl2mieMuBopI

[@trainliker100]

Lionel had another advantage they got from 3-rail although probably more from serendipity than planned from the beginning. Since the outer two rails are common to each other and the wheels and axles are electrically common, you can insulate one outside rail to use for detection. You use plastic insulating track pins for the rail and also insulate it from the metal ties (in the same way the center rail is insulated.) Then, when any engine or car is on the track, the wheels and axles connect the outer two rails together. You can use this scheme to operate something like the gateman or crossing gate accessories. It is a low cost high reliability method. You DO lose the redundancy of having two wheels contacting the "common" rails (outside rails) however.

[@electron2601]

I used the three rail Lionel track to make the train switch on/off my Christmas light decorations to make them blink one year.

[@crystalrock18]

I remember there was a show on the history channel called “trains unlimited” and they had an episode on model trains, and they covered this exact topic of AC & DC current and how Lionel developed the reins we all know and still love today. I kinda wish that show was still around that was an awesome show.

[@kenshores9900]

It still is some place in video.

[@kenshores9900]

Tesla and Edison hated each other. Well Edison hated Tesla. Names like GE and Westinghouse are involved in this battle.

[@kenshores9900]

Dale: That smell is poly chlorinated phenols used as insulation. Great explanation. Now the rectifiers are real small.

[@ToyManTelevision]

@@kenshores9900 yup. Depends on amperage but some are microscopic. But even a huge one for your car charging system is smaller than a sugar cube.

[@flick22601]

The trolley cars in Washington, D.C. worked with both overhead as well as underground power. As you moved further away from downtown, there were places where they would connect/disconnect the underground pickup and the streetcar operator would go to the back of the trolley, flip the center seat back down and crank the overhead pickup up/down. They would operate the trolley from this location when they wanted to back up.

[@ToyManTelevision]

That figures. I’ll bet the underground was expensive!!

[@Bigboy4018]

That third rail sure makes wiring a layout a lot easier!

[@ToyManTelevision]

Indeed!

[@barbaradee5191]

Yes, it is that simple. The 3rd rail was implemented so even a young child can put tracks together wish no electrical issues

[@vincenthuying98]

Very clear, love your scale to gauge series. Great explanation on the third rail.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi!! And thanks 🙏!!

[@muir8009]

Yeah... a few minor alterations though: the reverse loop wiring was just coincidental to three rail remember. Issmayer followed of course by marklin developed the sectional track idea. Lionel's trains were always intended to be used by ac or dc, it was only following Ives realisation that following marklins track system, that lionel realised that their own horrible 2 rail strip track was a dead loss, so of course developed standard track, following marklins lead (I say marklin but by that time generally encompassing every UK, and European manufacturer). Do remember that with 3 rail manufacturing is so much easier: no chassis insulation to worry about, no wheel insulation, nice and easy track system with no complicated point frog insulation etc... 3 rail has immense advantages functionality wise, just not aesthetically. I could add how many people bemoan the unrealistic look of 3 rail, and yet their efforts at layout building may require more than jusr losing a centre rail to achieve what they think they are achieving...

[@slacroixfr]

The great advantage of the third rail has nothing to do with DC versus AC current, just the fact the middle rail remains in the middle when you do a loop with a junction, or a diagonal in an oval or even do a triangle with 3 junction, and this really cool because your trains can go back in the opposite direction after a loop or triangle, so less boring than just turning round especially when you play with multiple digital locomotives. With only two rails you get a short circuit so you cannot use these patterns. At last a 3 rails system can work very well with DC as well. I am surprised so few train modelists seem to know this fundamental trick. It seems people were a bit more clever when the first toys were made with 3 rails. For decades people focus mainly on realism but boring train sets that just go round and round. Nothing exiting....

[@ToyManTelevision]

It’s is possible with manual switching on DC or even automatic. I had a point to point DC dog bone with auto reverse loops at each end. But the circuit was tricky. But no idea how to do that with AC. Unless you just use a simple center rail.

[@H.pylori]

Great video. I was born and raised in Washington, DC and in the 1950s I often rode on the street cars with my parents. When crossing the street I would often place my feet on that center rail with the open slit. Now, thanks to you I know why I was not electrocuted on the spot and am still here today. Thanks.

[@ToyManTelevision]

I really wonder how they connected to the center rail through that tiny slit! And if the connection ever touched the guard over the rail it would connect the high voltage to the guard and kill people. So the shaft going down there needed to be able to pass through the slot which is at best 2” wide, with insulation, and still get power to the car.

[@robertweldon7909]

My American Flyer trains were also AC. They used a slightly different method of changing direction. It was a drawback to these trains. It required a special "transformer" and the directional switching units were constantly failing. Gilbert made a good swing at the toy train market, but Lionel was the king. ;-)

[@lescobrandon3047]

Our family gave us American Flyer trains and neighborhood kids who had Lionel laughed us only having two rails on gentler curves.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. It was Marx who came up with the reverser. So some locomotives had a switch. Some a relay that worked from the reverser and some the reversing relay alternated from forward to backward to neutral.

[@djbeezy]

I hated that Lionel had 3 rails but I loved them because they sounded so real with the "clickity clack" of real trains. I always assumed it was for electric reasons but never really delved far into it. So, I'm interested to hear what the reason was.

[@TheDaflad]

So glad I found your channel When learning becomes interesting and fun 😂😂

[@ToyManTelevision]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@d.l.harrington4080]

As a kid, I had a Marx system three rail train. It was interesting how they managed reverse. Each time you came to full, power off stop, it would start back up in the opposite direction. There was a, I'll call it, ratchet relay that would index a rotary switch and reverse the motor.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. Marx invented that. And licensed that to Lionel and Märklin. Super simple stepper relay. But the cheapest Lionel locomotives still had an onboard switch to avoid the licensing.

[@raylrodr]

I think the Lionel 3rd (center) rail concept came about due to it costing way more to insulate every wheelset on every piece of equipment. Not only the cost but also the manufacturing processes and materials weren't even available 120 years ago.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. Part of it for sure. But the added cost to add a third rail with insulation at every tie… also explains the reason for one tie every six inches. Also the ability to “ground” the entire locomotive. But Gilbert opted to drop the third rail.. so it was possible and in fact easy. In 1890 things were sketchy. Still six years before 1 1/4” was set as 0 gauge! By the time Lionel got in the idea of 1 1/4” gauge and a center rail was almost standard practice. So Lionel could have gone two rail. But for a bunch of reasons, all electrical, they stuck with Marklin trains third rail. We really wanna dive into this when we do a series on layout wiring. Another deep subject.

[@rogermetzger7335]

We lived In Iowa when I got my first electric train in about 1950 - the least expensive Marx set (in O-27 of course). We were still living in Iowa when I got my first Lionel train in about '57, also in O-27. I never heard ANYONE in Iowa refer to O-27 Lionel as the sports models but it was very common to refer to Lionel 0-27 as "semiscale) - meaning that the length of the locomotives and the cars was less (compared to height and width) than for the prototypical Locomotives and cars (aka "foreshortened). . There are many people who don't have room for layouts with larger-than-27-inch-diameter curves. Many of those people buy HO trains for that reason. It's a pity, however, because the HO equipment isn't as well suited for children and, of course, because of the difficulty of building 2-rail layouts with reversing loops.

[@1940limited]

To this day 3-rail is extremely popular, even among highly detailed model roads that look about as close to real as possible. Subway trains are 3-rail, but the third rail is outside of the two main rails.

[@pstonard]

The London Underground is electric and uses FOUR rails. Two standard rails for the wheels and two current pick up shoes. The original configuration is nominally 630 V with a −210 V center conductor rail and a +420 V outside conductor rail. This is the default configuration wherever deep-level tube trains operate. This arrangement was used to reduce leakage current (in the metal tunnel liners) and corrosion of buried metal water and sewer pipes. After 2016 the track voltage was raised to 750V DC.

[@brianmanil5755]

Thanks for the info. As I am fairly new to model railroading and am actually running O' scale Lionel Fastrack.

[@ToyManTelevision]

The “fast track” type tracks have made trains more reliable and therefore more fun!

[@brianmanil5755]

I'm "somewhat" of a purist when it comes to era, but I am currently building and weathering some plasticville buildings that I've come across. I'm trying to keep everything pre 1950 steam era though.

[@brianmanil5755]

Watching some of your videos of your friend Steves layout and the fantastic work of your late friend Al, truly inspired me. Thank you, and thank you for sharing their amazing work with us.

[@ToyManTelevision]

@@brianmanil5755 I miss the “old days”. Al and Steve and the layout. But these days don’t suck. Missing Al. Steve it tearing down the layout but building great layouts and dioramas. And our layout is coming together. I wish Al could see it. Help with it. And others… sigh… anyway never forget to enjoy the here and now.. because it too is transient.

[@brianmanil5755]

Well, Steves attention to detail is honestly, the best work I've ever seen and I don't know how many thousands of layouts I've seen. All of his scratch built stuff is mesmerizing and he's a true artist. Of course Karen is a close 2nd. 😜 Keep up the great work you two. My wife has family down in Panguitch so if I get the chance to head down that direction, I'd love to see your garagemahal in person some day. 👍

[@macguysgarage]

Did not know that about the third rail! interesting....thanks! Awesome explanation, I did know about the 027 because my dad had two of the old school Lionel trains (one passenger and one freight-will be posting on my Instagram soon if interested) Great episode!

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks!! I never use instagram. Guess I should

[@johnbeck3270]

When A. C. Gilbert ( of Erector Set fame) introduced his S gauge trains, these were also ac powered, he did so with a 2 rail system.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. Easy power supply that way. But the electrical power in the locomotive was so much more difficult. With three rail AC the entire engine is neutral. Just a small pickup on the bottom in the center for the hot leg. Then a back and forth relay for forward and back. Simple. American Flyer was so much more difficult to build.

[@Bobrogers99]

I had a two-rail American Flyer train set, and the brass contact wheels needed to be cleaned frequently. Three-rail Lionel trains didn't seem to have that problem.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Lionel had much better electrical pickup. All the wheels were “grounded”. And the hot shoe slid down the center rail and so stayed quite clean.

[@saxmusicmail]

Rat Fink... those models, I built many of those! Wow! Blast from the past!

[@KibuFox]

Marklin still uses '3 rail' track, though it's not a true center rail any longer. Rather it's a series of metal contact studs which a sliding shoe on the underside of the locomotive runs over.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup!! And it works well.

[@TheFailroaders]

Seeing me on Facebook you may know I might have a small obsession with lionel trains, to say the least, outside third rail, like the layout you visited, are some of the oldest "scale" model track types in the states. I have collected a ton of three rail from lionel oo, which is american oo gauge, not the same gauge as British oo, which is essentially ho gauge. Lionel "american" oo is wider, scale craft made some american oo and then lionel was offering both 2 and 3 rail in american oo back in the prewar era, If you get into lionel oo, be sure to note that the 3 rail cars, which look identical, will short out the two rail track, It's really weird, and didn't last long, american oo is now all but extinct.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Interesting. Thanks for this! Never hear of this.

[@robertronconi8804]

I have never understood why serious train modelers were satisfied in having a non-prototypical third rail on their layouts. Now I understand better. Thanks

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks for watching!!

[@stephenrickjr.7519]

There was o scale two rail with an outside third rail in the 1930s. But I prefer two rail because that's what the real trains run on. Thanks for the info 😊👍.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Didn’t know but not surprised. Thanks!!!!!! .

[@marklandrebe3521]

Agree !!

[@wcarlhepker4806]

Urban commuter surface rail systems, overhead elevated rail systems, and subways run the third rail to the side, slightly elevated, and have a pick up shoe on both sides of the train so that any train that is dragging a safety chain or anything conductive under or between the cars does not short out the whole system. At the end of the line, they just switch over to the tracks going the other way and the power pick up shoes on the other side of the cars pick up the power.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks for this. When I was a student in Paris I rode many lines like this. And every odd configuration.

[@kenshores9900]

The burning notes were the phenolic chemical compounds. (You know like poly chlorinate biphenyl compounds used in transformers). That was a long explanation but a good one.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Just the right amount too.

[@Decrepit_Productions]

Another case of RL track with three rails is when tracks combined both narrow and standard gauge. In that case the extra rail would not be positioned at center. Unless the small gauge was half the width of standard gauge. I am unaware that such a combo ever existed.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. In Australia in places they have 4 rails. That support 4 gauges!

[@Jeppe-Covid1959]

You should make t-shirts saying: Bloodtype O positive. They have those in Germany saying Bluttype HO positiv. I am from Denmark. When I was a kid you hat two options Märklin or Fleischman (AC or DC?). Most people chose AC, because it was easier to handle. No worries with the polarization of the tracs.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Exactly!!!

[@Jeff-uj8xi]

That streetcar track in Washington, D.C. was called conduit track. In North America, Manhattan in New York City had it too. And conduit track was also used in London, England, as well as in Paris, Berlin, Marseilles, Vienna, Budapest, and Prague . The device that hung from the underside of the car and collected the power through the slot was called a plough. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conduit_current_collection I could never get used to three rails on model trains. To me, it's ugly and not prototypical of real railroads. For that reason, I was never into Lionel. When I was a little kid, back in the 1950's, my father bought me a set of American Flyer S gauge trains. They had two rails. In more recent years, I've gotten into G scale in a major way. It too has two rails.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. I had American Flyer. But switched to HO because of the track!!

[@ronlevine8873]

Conduit track in DC was used for aesthetic reasons, as you say. But conduit track in NY was required because the Blizzard of 1888 caused massive downing of overhead lines. So the city required underground electric service.

[@ToyManTelevision]

@@ronlevine8873 here in Salt Lake City the pantographs on top of the light rail trains are not all functional. Not in terms of picking up electricity. If you see a car with more than one pantograph in a train, the lead pantograph is an ice scraper.

[@davidlewis9068]

Nice video

[@ToyManTelevision]

@@davidlewis9068 thanks!

[@johnbeck3270]

Lionel measured their track curvature in diameter not radius. 0-36 curve was a 3’ diameter circle. When Lionel produced their 0-27 trains the “standard curve” produced a 27” diameter circle. The 0-27 trains were also slightly under scale to accommodate the tighter curve. This also made it possible to build a “real railroad empire” on a 4X8 sheet of plywood. Whereas this would be difficult with 0 gauge trains and track.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. Forgot to mention that.

[@JethrosGarage-op4bo]

Very interesting video, thanks for sharing!

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks for watching!!! Next Tuesday narrow gauge.

[@ToyManTelevision]

🙏 thanks for watching!!

[@heronimousbrapson863]

The modern dc power supplies reverse direction by reversing the polarity of the rails bscause the locomotives use dc motors with permanent magnet fields. The old three rail lionel system used universal motors in the locomotives which can run on ac (similar to the motors used in modern household appliances such as vacuum cleaners). Reversal was achieved by means of an electromagnetic relay on the locomotive which reversed the direction of the armature current relative to the field current.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. Or on early or cheaper ones, a switch on the cab.

[@davidwayneprins]

now cover why the heck Lionel accessories were so out of scale. That crossbuck is a great example. I've seen Lionel crossing signals used in G scale and they actually look like they belong there. Marx were equally out of scale.

[@ToyManTelevision]

I think it’s because they didn’t really care. It was a toy train scale. Didn’t really concern them very much.

[@spankyham9607]

I have always wondered why there was a third rail. Now I know and it makes a lot of sense. That being said, this is the 21'st century. Let's get with the program Lionel and make 2 rail stuff the norm OK. We have the technology!

[@ToyManTelevision]

Well retro. Everyone wants compatibility. And most want old school.

[@scottb8175]

AC or DC, 3-rail / Marklin don't need any wiring or switches to have reverse loops. Same for live catenary. Most AC field wound magnet motors will run on DC as well as AC. The E-unit won't work, though. Another fun fact - real electric railroads, like the Milwaukee, got DC power for their overhead traction wires by running high voltage AC motors to turn large DC generators in the sub-stations. In 1918, that was the only practical way to turn approximately 15 000 horsepower worth of 110 000 volt AC into 3000 volt DC.

[@ToyManTelevision]

The famous John Allen layout did the same thing! He had an AC motor run by a variac that spun a DC generator with a flywheel. No need for a big DC power supply with a tube rectifier, and added bonus it added a flywheel effect causing trains to start slowly and then coast!

[@gwspangler9231]

I have an old Marx O27 train set that has the ability to change direction. You would run it one direction then when you turn the power off then turn it back on it would go the other direction.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. Marx came out with an AC reverser. And American Flyer and Lionel licensed that to use on their locomotives. It uses a version of a “stepper relay”. A sort of AC motor that turns part way and a cam stops it. But reversing happens inside the locomotive b

[@1940limited]

When I was a kid a couple of my friends had American Flyer trains as they thought the 2-rail system was more realistic. I guess that's a credible argument, but 3-rail Lionel was always what I had and liked to this day. That includes all the great stuff available these days from MTH and other manufacturers. Isolating a track for manual block operation is also easy.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Well.. I thought the same thing.. it’s a slippery slope. First American Flyer. Than HO. Then craftsmen kits. Than scratch building. The thing is Lionel was not intended to be realistic!! It is intended to be FUN!!

[@1940limited]

@@ToyManTelevision The stuff Lionel's making today is highly realistic. I have some of their new stuff and it's great, and expensive. I have HO too and like it. Never had American Flyer. But anything that runs on rails is good no matter what size it is! 🙂

[@SailorDon]

@@ToyManTelevision You said in this video that 3-rail was AC and 2-rail was DC. Not so with early 1950's American Flyer. They were AC. Reversing was done with a relay in the tender. Sequence: Power on (Increasing the throttle/voltage) the train goes forward. Power off, the train stops. Power on, train remains stationary but a click is heard from the tender. Power off, train remains stationary. Power on, train moves in reverse direction. Power off, train stops. Power on, train remains stationary but a click is heard from the tender. Power on, train goes forward.

[@FunAtDisney]

Loved this! You explain all this so well and make it fun. Looking forward to more. I do have a question on a slightly related topic: Both DIsneyland and Knott’s Berry Farm railroads are narrow-gauge “heritage” lines. Being that I went to both parks this past weekend (and go to Disneyland nearly once a week), I think that Knott’s is a “full-scale” narrow gauge railroad (as is Dollywood) whereas Disneyland is 5/8th scale (matching the Main Street buildings). But at the Magic Kingdom in Disney World I do believe those trains are full-scale, matching the Main Street buildings there. Disneyland’s locos Is this correct?

[@ToyManTelevision]

Well… watch our Disneyland videos!! And the whole walking with Walt series. Award winning!! The first one is the featured video on the channel page. Anyway the first two locomotives are 5/8 scale and built at Disneyland by Disney people. The other three are three foot gauge plantation engines rebuilt to look like early standard gauge locomotives. But all Disney locomotives at all parks are 3 foot gauge. And all but the first two are old steam engines.

[@trainliker100]

The diagram for a reverse loop and switch for DC will work equally well for AC. Instead of a polarity mismatch, you have a phase mismatch. Either way, it is a "short." Instead of solving a problem of a DC voltage being reversed and connected to itself, you are solving a problem of an AC voltage having its phased reversed and connected to itself. In fact, with DCC, which is AC (some don't think it is, but it is) the same solution is used for reverse loops as if it were DC. However, for DCC the reversing is typically automated (but doesn't have to be).

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup!!! More when we do the electrical series!!!! Super interesting stuff!!

[@tomklock568]

OOOOOOOOOOOOh! Thanks guys. Always a learning experience or headache! Ha ha

[@ToyManTelevision]

Morning!! And thanks again as always!

[@TheBarry1m]

Time for a field trip for you folks, the lionel Cass Scenic RR caboose sitting in front of you cries out for a trip to the Cass Scenic RR in West Virginia. You would love this little tourist line and its collection of Shay locomotives. Worth seeing and experiencing.

[@ToyManTelevision]

So on our bucket list!!! Really want to see that place.

[@Rebel9668]

Well, I'm certainly glad we adopted alternating current. Can you imagine how many power plants would be around now if we had stayed with direct current given its distance problem. That being said, almost any appliance nowadays runs on direct current as even though outlets supply alternating current we still use rectification in appliances to convert the ac to dc. Towards the end of the tube era we went from using tubes like they ST type 80 and the 5Y4 octal and 35Z5 loktal tubes and started using selenium rectifiers which lasted much longer. The being said, if you currently have an old radio that is still using a selenium rectifier it's time to change it over to a diode because those selenium rectifiers are now way past their intended service life and they will eventually burn up. They are not a pleasant smell when they do either and will make a house stink for a long time with a smell somewhat like burnt garlic but more powerful. Diodes are very cheap as well, being about 10 or 11 cents each. I usually replace a selenium rectifier with a 1N4007 diode in my old radios.

[@wcarlhepker4806]

Be careful!! Check out the filter capacitors and other circuit elements because the forward voltage drop on the rectifier you are replacing is much, much higher than your silicone diode. As a matter of fact, you probably need to change any electrolytic capacitors because they tend to dry out, become leaky, and are much much lower in C value.

[@Rebel9668]

@@wcarlhepker4806 Oh, I do. Last time I replaced the rectifier it was on a Zenith K725 and I put in a dropping sand resistor in as well. I always replace the electrolytics as well and any oot resistors. I tend to change out the old wax caps too, but none of that really had anyting to do with what was mentioned in this video so I didn't include it.

[@ToyManTelevision]

You guys wanna rebuild my juke boxes? The filters hum like a substation.

[@pjasyl]

Excellent explanation! The Marx crossing caught my eye! Do it still work? Have several. Still working after 60+years! !

[@ToyManTelevision]

Not sure.. bet it does though.

[@jeffsymons4535]

I find it incredible that 3 rail is still a thing in this day and age. What would otherwise be lovely models are completely ruined by the track & horrid overscale steamroller wheels.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. Not out cup a tea.. but if they are old toys then so much better that they are three rail.

[@muir8009]

I find it incredible that in this day and age people seem to think that what they think and prefer is what everybody else should think and prefer, even when its patently obvious they're incorrect

[@pinchy08]

Modern diesel electric locomotives run on AC and DC power. I wonder how AC and DC complies with the diesel engine? I mean this is very interesting history on an AC or DC current on old or new Lionel train sets.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. The “modern” diesels are AC. What’s old is new again. But much much better!!

[@sjwhitney]

One of the London underground lines uses a third rail that makes it look very much like Lionel. Look it up.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. A few interurban railroads did! Perhaps 4 or 5 in the US. And others in Europe and I think Australia.

[@finlayfraser9952]

Really interesting. Is there any truth in that the very earliest model trains ran on mains voltage? I seem to have read about that somewhere.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Some did!!! Shocking!! They have a lightning bolt painted on them. Can you imagine…

[@charlieirvin5423]

I had American Flyer Train set with the 3rd Rail

[@ToyManTelevision]

Cool!!!! Those are rare!! And old!!

[@pinchy08]

Also the 3rd rail in O gauge is for electrical pickups from electric rollers under the locomotive and cars to supply electricity. Vintage eh?

[@raymondleggs5508]

The Marklin Company used to sell 110 and 220V volt high current AC O scale and Gauge 1 train sets called Starkstrom, you can tell them apart from the low voltage ones by the fact that there is lightning bolt symbol on the cab, Dangerous trains.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Didn’t know!!! Easy to see why. The variac transformer was huge and expensive. DC such a problem. John Allen’s rail Road was originally powered by an AC motor connected to a DC generator with a flywheel. Then the throttle was a variac that ran the AC motor. So the engines would start slowly and “coast’ to a stop. Inspiration for “flywheel” power supplies in the 1970’s when this could be done with a set of capacitors.

[@Santafefrank]

Thanks

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks for watching!!

[@sammisworkshops3762]

The Proverbial CRISPY CRITTER. LOL love this channel. you guys always make me Laugh. I get your humor!

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi again!!!! Thanks again!! And speaking of crispy critter, as a kid, I love cooking hotdogs were running line current through them. A board. A pair of nails. An old extension cord. And catsup mustard and a bun. Oh.. and a weenie. I swear. They taste better cooked that way. Unless you burn them because they tend to arc.

[@sammisworkshops3762]

@@ToyManTelevision true LOL we did that too!

[@JeffDeWitt]

Interesting, I never knew why the third rail. So now I'm wondering how do AC trains reverse? And... for a DC train you'd need a rectifier, but you wouldn't really need filters, DC motors don't care all that much about how smooth the current is, in fact as I recall pulsing DC was (is?) a thing in model railroading as it helps a DC locomotive to start moving more smoothly.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi. The AC trains originally had a switch on the cab. Reversed the field coils. Then a system where the switch was replaced with a stepper relay. Whenever the power was cut the fields reversed. So first forward then reverse. Later they added a center off position so the train could sit with the lights on. As for filters they were used to keep the motor from humming. And perhaps burning out as the voltage was higher to get the same speed.

[@JeffDeWitt]

@@ToyManTelevision Thanks. Was the stepper relay on the locomotive? So did that setup mean you couldn't stop the train and then start it moving again without having to go into reverse for a bit?

[@lescobrandon3047]

In the north east, our Long Island RR, formally owned by the PRR, we still have a third rail off to one side and semi covered by a wood beam. It’s used for commuter trains while diesel locos are for freight and don’t need the third rail. Kinda confusing to left coast folks.

[@ToyManTelevision]

In France the interurban trains did the same thing. Oh the sparks at night!!

[@Jeppe-Covid1959]

Rod Stewart is a modeltrain nerd too.

[@IowaTrainGay]

Some of the London Underground system has 4 rails I believe! Cool stuff!

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. Many subways do that. Not dangerous because no one should be near the tracks.

[@nobnobvideo]

in Bordeaux, France, they built a tramway with a third rail some years ago. The third rail is divided in small sections which are only live than the train is above. This system is used in other cities too, like Tour, France, or Sydney, Australia. Sorry couldn't find any information that is not in French.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup! Interesting technology. Tricky. Hope it didn’t mess up as it could kill people.

[@charlieirvin5423]

My another question is I bet you were a Retired Railroad worker ? My dad worked for Conrail years ago I can tell you know about Trains .

[@ToyManTelevision]

Nope. We were teachers. Still are sort of…

[@77thTrombone]

Glad to see you guys alive and kicking! (I've been spending my KZbin time since Feb on Ukraine.) Did you forget to mention the bit about the old Lionels changing direction every time you gave them power? I think you had the intention to mention it with the AC explanation, but I didn't hear that 1 point. Given your AC explanation, I understood why the engines switched automatically. This is#8 in a series?! I'll go back and check the others, as Ukraine permits.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi! Yup #8. The reverser was a Marx invention. Lionel bought it. On a simple AC motor you need a switch on the locomotive to reverse. On this reverser there is a stepper relay that reverses the motor every time the power is cut. Or it can have a neutral position. So there is a three position relay. And on the most advanced system a button can interrupt the power for a split second and reverse that way.

[@77thTrombone]

@Toy Man Television good lesson. My grandad's Lionel never had a Lionel Transformer. Might've been a Marx, but this explains the "cross-connect." The xfmr has a little red spring loaded pushbutton on the side. Never thought of that thing as advanced, but such is the march of technology. It's gotta be at least 80 years old, and the d*** interrupter switch still works. (Tho only at Christmas!) Best to you and your prettier half!

[@mikeynth7919]

So the engine could be set facing either way and still receive power.

[@ToyManTelevision]

It will always get power with the same polarity. Hot leg is always the center rail.

[@alistairdennett5913]

Although a lot of info here makes sense some details are not accurate. Lionel did not invent three rail track (Marklin did in 1891). Also the toy train items in the video are not made by Lionel, but by Marx and somebody else (the G gauge caboose). There is no problem using AC current with a two rail metal tied track system (American Flyer S gauge used it with metal ties) but before plastics insulating all the axles between the wheels was an expensive challenge. Charming video nonetheless.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi. Yes oops. Marx. The large caboose is O but just big. A souvenir item.

[@alistairdennett5913]

That caboose is O gauge!? Good heavens. I personally like the fact that someone is putting out information about tinplate trains. All my kids and grandkids love them, not to mention people who just stop in for a visit. Putting together a really cool prewar train set with track and tinplate accessories is less expensive than many electronic toys (I just bought a standard gauge set for $150 CDN or about $105 US with track in beautiful original condition). The motion, the noise, the lights and the smell all play on the senses. Keep doing what you are doing...

[@flick22601]

So, how did HO and American Flyer operate on two rails. As I remember it, their transformers were no larger than Lionel's.

[@ToyManTelevision]

American Flyer also used AC but on 2 rails. Making reverse loops a real problem. But as long as you always go in a circle it fine. HO came a bit later. And used a Rectifier. Early DC systems usually used batteries.

[@KennMSr]

There are three rail trains in real life what about trolly cars, or trains with pantographs which is your third hot rail. As for O27 rails they also have a lower profile than O gauge track thus O27 trains run on O track but O equipment tends to derail on O27 track because of longer flanges on the trucks.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi. Thanks for the information

[@ChristopherBrown-mq1lg]

I remember learning about AC and DC the hard way . I was 8 years old and burned out the motor on my new Tyco F9 by hooking the track to the AC on the transformer! 😂

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. Loud hum. No movement. Soon smoke!

[@electron2601]

Did that with a brand new HO MTBA Emerald Green Line model I got for Christmas. Oops! Didn't run too well after that.

[@edwinsinclair9853]

How did AMerican Flyer work? It was also AC. How the Lionel E-Unit worked is also interesting.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. American Flyer also runs on AC and without the center rail the track plans need to conform to outside rail always being outside. It is possible to do a reversing track but a bit more difficult than DC.

[@ToyManTelevision]

And the reverser on Lionel can be one of several systems. The Marx style reverser with an interrupter on the power supply, a relay in the locomotive as on the E units or a simple switch on the locomotive.

[@SteveBakerIsHere]

I don't buy the AC vs DC thing. It's the reversing loops that are the REAL reason. You can put AC on one rail and ground on the other and an AC motor will be just fine on a 2 rail track. You can't make reversing loops with either AC or DC without breaking the track or using that 3rd rail.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Well there are several reasons why the third rail. But with three rails there is no need to figure out power routs. Make any track plan and it just works. Hot leg is always on the center rail. And the locomotive always goes in whatever ever direction is set by the switch or relay in the locomotive.

[@SteveBakerIsHere]

@@ToyManTelevision Yeah - but the lack of realism in the track is a show-stopper for me.

[@JacobHofeldt-fq6ii]

Lionel also marketed 0 Gauge versus 0-27. With O gauge, 31 inch radius curves, being more expensive with bigger engines such as 2-8-4 Berkshires and f-3 diesel locomotives. 0-27, 27 inch radius curves, was marketed as less expensive with typically smaller locomotives such as 2-4-2s and 0-4-0s. Strangely though some locomotives were exactly the same build wise, but they were numbered differently. and example being the 4-4-0 general locomotives from the late 50s to early 60s, one being #1862 that was marketed as an 0-27 locomotive and the other #1872 which was sold as an 0 gauge locomotive. These locomotives have the same basic frame and wheel configuration, with the only difference being that the 1862 has less features than the 1872.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks!!! Good information.

[@pmsteamrailroading]

I find myself wanting to scream. O27 makes a 27 inch DIAMETER circle Normal Lionel makes a 31 inch DIAMETER circle And the same for O72.

[@105C09]

Gee, being a graduate to S gauge, I thought the middle piecen was a "training rail"! ;)

[@scottmonfort]

Wow, still confused. You show a 2 rail diagram with breaks ... I assume in the loop that the loop becomes hot, but once it exits the loop, the straight away going the other way somehow becomes hot? How does it automatically change? Is the engine "coasting" over the short breaks and tripping a switch at the same time?

[@ToyManTelevision]

It’s not automatic. It ca be but in the normal system here you make sure the polarity at the entrance to the loop matches the main line. The train can take either route but the polarity at the entrance needs to match. Once the train is in the loop you throw the direction switch and now the polarity matches the exit route. A detector can automate that.

[@drgwnut]

I thought the ac/dc discussion would lead to LGB, TT and Q. TT you covered, but what is Q scale?

[@ToyManTelevision]

We will get to #1 gauge (LGB and so on) sooner rather then later. I think…. At this rate 2025? Anyway Q is the same as SMO. Scale Modified O scale. Originally I think they picked Q as a Q is a modified O. Anyway 1:47 scale and later 1:43.5 scale on O gauge track.

[@AGHRMatt]

I'm a subscriber. The caboose on the left looks like Marx. There are some other things that need clarification.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi. Yup Marx to the left and a Cass souvenir to the right.

[@robertkreamer7522]

My 1955 American Flyer control box was not that big it did not use tubes it was simply a transformer converter of AC to DC which is done with transformers to this day. Now cell phone charges using a solid state transformer circuit which probably impedes the input current of 110 v ac to 6 volt ac then converts that to 6 volts dc . That’s why those wall charges get so hot . Impeding voltage or more correctly dropping voltage and lowering amps throws off a lot of wasted energy as heat . That energy has to go somewhere ! Converter transformers get hot but the big ones on power line substations get really hot lowering 100 k AC to 4 k or whatever again fins and oil coolant keeps that heat dissipation going . My father who was a Ham radio expert for some 80 years , yes he died at 92 in 2010 always thought Lionel cheaped out by that trick He didn’t think they were that safe .

[@ToyManTelevision]

The American Flyer also used AC. But because of the two rail system they couldn’t do reverse loops. The early AF had three rails and was O gauge as well. But they switched to S gauge and two rails but stayed AC. Wasn’t until 1956 that rectifiers were small and affordable.

[@Prewarpostwaramdmore]

That Cass Scenic Railroad caboose is larger than O-scale. Tried to run it with O-scale equipment, and it was much too big in comparison.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. Shelf toy. But can be run. Just looks silly.

[@jenniferwhitewolf3784]

Just to be clear.. it makes no difference if its 2 rail or 3 rail track, either can be used with AC or DC... and guess what, modern DCC uses a very high frequency AC mixed with digital commands. O-27 and O-31 or whatever number, are NOT the RADIUS of the curves ... they are the DIAMETER at the center rail. O-72 is 36" radius. O-31 is 15.5" radius.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks..

[@ToyManTelevision]

It’s just harder to create a reverse track in two rail AC than two rail DC. So center rail was used.

[@trainliker100]

@@ToyManTelevision Not really. The situation for AC and DC for a reverse loop is identical with the identical solution of reversing a track connection somewhere with a switch. In one case, you care switching polarity. In the other case, you are switching "Phase." Even in Lionel instruction manuals they had to address "Phase" conflicts if using multiple transformers on multiple insulated blocks. No different than two DC power packs having to be the same polarity.

[@jordanfalkowski6924]

I had A-team slot car track when i was little i think i fell asleep on it playin and bent the prongs on a piece and twisted back down couldnt bridge so it was ovaled. That van would fly of tryin to drift the curve.

[@ToyManTelevision]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/jXmximSLe5eretk

[@tomas5376]

Well, you didn’t show how the 3 rail engines make contact to that middle rail. Also, while 036 trains can’t run on 027 track, I assume that 027 can run on 030 or 036.🚂🚂🚂🚂🚂

[@ToyManTelevision]

Hi again. Yes the O27 can run on any of the tracks. The central pickup is often an elaborate system with rollers and everything. Not sure it’s needed but very over engineered.

[@tgmccoy1556]

I had a Lionel metal caboose exactly like that NYC. It was a hand me down. Mother threw it, along with toy trains and Teddy bears out when we moved.

[@ToyManTelevision]

That sux. Happened most of the time. So we try to re find lost treasures on eBay.

[@tgmccoy1556]

@@ToyManTelevision exactly . My mom was appalled when she found out my Dear Gloria and her Mom loved - TEDDY BEARS! Made them even.

[@michaelrollo6518]

I had a marklin train set and I had to stop the train and I had to stop the train and flip the switch to go in the oppisite direction not american flyer it ran on 2 rail and alternating current

[@ToyManTelevision]

American Flyer is also AC but still requires reversing in the locomotive. However it doesn’t require flipping a switch as there is a relay in the locomotive that replaces the switch. Most Lionel and Marx also had that. We will dive into to that when we do electrics. But you can’t reverse an AC train by reversing the current at the rails.

[@irish00011]

'O' oh, is a Capital Letter symbol, and '0' zero is a Numerical symbol.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. The original designation by the society of model engineers in 1896 was 0 gauge. But as most people said oh instead of not or zero the usage slowly became the letter O instead of the number 0. And all scales and gauges from that point were known by letters. But the other 1896 gauges stayed numbered. Gauge 1. Gauge 2 etc. except Lionel offered a large scale which I think was number 1 gauge, 1 3/4”, and called it “standard gauge “ as I recall…..

[@alasdairblack393]

Pre war British Hornby o gauge tinplate trains are also 3 rail, very similar

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. Same reasons.

[@ourv9603]

Lionel is the only train set I ever knew. I burnt up more transformers. !

[@ToyManTelevision]

They smoke. And stink.

[@gregwilliams386]

Everyone knows that the third rail existed so a Lionel could chase a HO!

[@raymondleggs5508]

I remember the movie the Red Baron featured a scene where some soldiers were watching a 3 rail O guage train that was going around the table, it was a french train but it was too new for the time period the movie took place in at least it was 3 rail o scale.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Be fun to see!

[@iannarita9816]

I'll give you one more. In France, Bordeaux(?),(I think) Alsthom has a light rail system that runs the voltage thru the rails. Now you may wonder what is there to prevent someone from walking on the live rails? What they do is the voltage is only present when the train is on top of the tracks. When the tram is covering the rail a circuit automatically turns on the power when a tram is covering the track. Then when the end of the tram nears the end of the powered track the power is automatically turned off. I think they also use this in Dubai. Anyway if you want to read about it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bordeaux_tramway & en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alstom_APS More then one way to run a train! Thx again

[@ToyManTelevision]

Wow!!! Thanks!!

[@warlockcommandcenter]

Thank god I though you were talking AC/DC the rock group…

[@ToyManTelevision]

Metal lives!

[@arlendavis]

You never discussed how you get AC trains to go in reverse. At least not in this segment.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Well a switch on the locomotive. But there are relays that replace the switch. We will get into that on the electrical series. But I do mention the switch in the show.

[@timothyboles6457]

If you want to see an AC 3 rail railroad. Look up the Napa Valley Railroad (not the wine train) the interurban line. Or the early SouthShore

[@ToyManTelevision]

Wow!! Napa?? Really??? Wow!! Gotta go sea. Nope that’s not a typo. We need to get to the ocean from time to time.

[@ToyManTelevision]

And Napa. Right!! Who would string overhead wires in gods country.

[@timothyboles6457]

@@ToyManTelevision there is a rather large book on the subject that can be found on our favorite auction website. That also lists several other AC interurban railroads Ironically around the same time as the beginning of Lionel

[@timothyboles6457]

@@ToyManTelevision it did have overhead. Lol

[@timothyboles6457]

@@ToyManTelevision visailia electric was another AC powered interurban

[@andrewjackson9417]

As a matter of interest digital command control, originally TMCC, No Legacy for Lionel or DCS (3rail) and DCC (2 rail) for MTH (now owned by Lionel) was invented and develped by the musician Neil Young.

[@ToyManTelevision]

Neal Young is a model railroad god. His layout is legendary. He built much of it in the road on concert tour. While ozzy was trashing hotel rooms Neal would have a room next to his prepared for modeling. They would remove the furniture and as I recall carpets, and the roadies would set up his bench in there. Then the models packed carefully and when finished taken to the layout. Oh to be able to see that layout. Oh and John Lassiter’s railroad. Sigh. The forbidden railroads. 🚫

[@andrewjackson9417]

@@ToyManTelevision Neal actually created digital control for his son who has cerebral palsy. His son couldn't work a transformer so Neal developed a way to send digital signals to the engine. This could be controlled by tapping a button which his son could do. Taking the control away from the track and putting it into the engine has redefined model railroading.

[@betsy662]

Remember though, the old American Flyer trains ran on two rails, and those were also AC, also, if your going to educate us on radius, please get the information correct, the O27, O36 and so on is the diameter of the curve, outside diameter, not the radius, the radius of O27 would be 13.5", the radius is exactly half of the outside diameter, two rail modelers tend to use radius, which is measured down the centerline of the track!

[@ToyManTelevision]

Thanks for the correction. Oops. Also ” Lionel was inconsistent. Generally speaking they measured all the way across for smaller diameters and center to center for larger ones. And sometimes their measurements were pretty exact. Read more: dfarq.homeip.net/available-diameters-of-tubular-o-and-o27-track/#ixzz7mimwLRk6

[@betsy662]

@@ToyManTelevision That is true, Lionel was very inconsistent with their track, while it was all O gauge, it wasn't all useable for full size O gauge, O-27 trains could certainly run on standard O gauge track, but not the other way around for direct example!

[@trainliker100]

Not quite "outside diameter", but rather the diameter is specified center rail to center rail. The space required by the track always being a little more than the diameter specified.

[@christmaschris487]

3rd rail was why I picked ho over o

[@ToyManTelevision]

Yup. Me too!

[@charlieirvin5423]

In Real life In the Cities wasn't the 3rd Rail Considered the Killer Rail If somebody stepped on it they would get fried .?

[@davidkoehler136]

Lionel did it because id was cheaper than insulating wheels and axels , that is why they did it J.C. Lionel admitted that

[@billbaber6653]

Never seen 3 rail track, come on man!

[@ToyManTelevision]

There were several interurban railroads that did.