Response to Simon Lizotte - Understanding Spin, Nose Angle & Trajectory

[@SimonLizotte8332]

Awesome video 👏 I thought the spin doesn’t have much to do with the over/under stability of the disc. That’s at least why I thought good throwers (high spin) can throw understable Discs much better than bad throwers (low spin). For example when beginners with poor form try to throw a putter really far, they flip it over into a roller. But I can throw a putter way harder than they can and it flies straight. I always explained that with spin. Since the faster an object spins the more “stable” it is. Example -> spinning top. (High spin = stable / low spin = wobble (unstable)). I think the problem here is the nose angle of the disc. Also who knows how accurate the speed gun is and what exactly it measures. Maybe his Max speed is not at the same time as mine. I can’t wait for people to really brake a Disc Golf throw down and we can start teaching it properly!

[@seabas22]

Thanks Simon, you're my favorite! Do you have any thought about spin in distance competition or it is just hitting the speed and angle? Or do you try and spin the disc 80mph or 60mph when trying to throw that exact speed? IMO the disc will automatically spin faster as a byproduct when you throw it faster due to leveraging the disc. I think you could be used as a human speed gun calibrator, so I think yours was fairly accurate. Putters can't handle the amount of off axis torque/wobble a beginner applies to the disc like an overstable driver can, so beginners are trying to spin a driver and putter relatively the same amount(minus the difference in moment of inertia, and putters will actually have more spin than drivers) but the difference in the wing design aerodynamics/drag and more mass in the rim help stabilize/dampen the driver quicker. The reason for a lot of this off axis torque is the intended trajectory and nose angle (I think Ezra has a great video about nose down/swinging upward), so it's more about the angles that they are trying to put the disc on that is the difference given the same speed, more so than the difference in the spin rate they are trying to put on the disc, or the difference in the spin rate(and speed) is the byproduct of the off axis torque and not getting all your energy transferred efficiently into the proper plane of the disc and the trajectory.

[@wyvern274]

Really admirable, Simon.

[@NickCarroll]

@@seabas22 I've watched Raivis on his channel and he frequently throws in such a way as to produce an "air bounce" with his flight. So he throws lower initially, but the disc rises as a result of that air bounce in flight, therefore losing distance. I think it has very little to do with spin, but the trajectory is definitely different due to the nose angle. Whereas Simon throws with a flatter nose angle, thus the disc doesn't lose as much momentum. Myself and at least one other person in the comments of Simon's video mentioned the air bounce by Raivis, evident in his throw in Simon's video.

[@NickCarroll]

Simon, Raivis air bounced his disc, thus it lost a lot of its energy. I started watching his video over a year ago and he does this a lot. It can have a purpose in getting through a low ceiling early in its flight, and then rise after that, he loses a significant amount of distance in doing so, and it shouldn't be happening in most of his drives or long throws.

[@gregrussell1787]

Simon is correct on this. Spin increases stability in gyroscopic motion (big words so you believe me... But maybe look it up :) ). The angle of the throw definitely causes a loss in momentum as you can see in the form breakdown. That will also slow the spin as seen by the bigger dump to the left. Who actually puts more spin initially is harder to tell, however a big indicator is their hips. Simon is in perfect sync. The first thrower has a lag for his hip follow through and that is causing a loss of momentum transferred to the disc.

[@4BoysGaming_GG]

Great video man! Just shows people that throwing to hard and sacrificing your angles is far less affective then being smooth and making sure you hit the nose angle right.

[@manzilla86]

It would be interesting to have a drone hovering above with a timestap and footage markers on the ground. You could figure out how different the speed is at 30 - 40 -50 etc feet from release. I think this would show some difference in drag due to release style.

[@petrifiedmonk]

Was thinking the same thing. The loss of speed overtime would be a better measurement than simply release speed.

[@milesrooklyn9952]

This is so good! So many insights in one simple video.

[@nautilusshell940]

Great video. Spin obviously gives more distance but I think in this instance, nose angle is the most determining factor. Also it doesn't look like they are throwing the exact same disc. Stability will change distance potential. Plus 1mph difference will also make a slight difference.

[@seabas22]

Thanks! Simon says at 40 sec they are throwing the same exact disc, although not literally the same disc, but same mold, plastic and weight. I know someone has a video doing the math and I think they correlated every 1mph to = 7 feet of distance. So 70 feet would 10 mph. Again, I'm not saying that spin is not important, but IMO it is highly over-rated in how most players think about technique and throwing far. If you leverage the disc properly, the spin takes care of itself and spin will typically increase as speed increases.

[@sanjuanpapi3677]

I been playing for almost 3 years. So very intermediate kinda rookie. I believe from seeing this video. Its all about nose angles

[@shobudd7139]

Just want to say that this comments thread is both equally amusing and saddening at the same time. Bravo.

[@Movetoadventure]

I’d love to have more info on how you retrofitted the RPM sensor…

[@seabas22]

Erin Hemmings did that test over a decade ago, IIRC it was with an Ultimate Frisbee, there was a picture of it at some point, but I can't find it. Golf discs have a much higher moment of inertia than a Frisbee, so the RPM on golf discs are going to be much lower especially high speed drivers, Avery Jenkins was measured via video at about 1200 RPM on his 500' Teebird throw.

[@Movetoadventure]

@@seabas22 Know any equipment that would make it easier to retrofit onto a disc and keep within a somewhat reasonable disc?

[@seabas22]

@@Movetoadventure Nope, but I'd like to know as well.

[@ciromassa7322]

the funny thing is, the other guy thought he was throwing on too much hyzer

[@RickRobichaudDG]

I'm curious about the speed radar. 1. Is the radar reading the arm speed or the disc as it is coming out of the hand? 2. If it is reading the arm speed (for example), how do we know it does not read the arm speed for one throw and then the disc speed on the next throw?

[@seabas22]

I'm pretty sure it's disc speed leaving the hand.

[@sarinhighwind]

@@seabas22 I know when danny was doing this for his one video, he was using the radar out in front so it was measuring the disc for sure. Which would have probably been better. but a lot harder to show.

[@MegaRockeman]

RADAR like this is generally going to pick up the fastest thing it can see, so my guess would be that it reliably picks up the initial out-of-hand speed of the disc.

[@Dustin-Dulaney]

Curious if you do this for people who send in video of their throw?

[@sarinhighwind]

Guy on the right threw a force flex annie air bounce. Simon threw a straight drive. Air bouncing is... I mean. these people who throw this way make it work. But body strain is so huge snapping down and through onto that disc vs a clean swing. I dont know if I'd say more spin or not with the guy on the left, as he is air bouncing, which means its trying to stall faster with the nose up drag, so the disc will be less likely to turn over with the air pushing up vs across properly. I look at spin as more of the performance when it hits further into the shot. Spin helps it stay in its flight more vs less spin. I finally got some glass to build the wind tunnel so we can check these things and the lumber to do it. I'll have to start working on it so we can visually see this stuff. Thanks for sharing Hemmings results as well. Was unaware of these. But the info he provided seems logical. But, possibly a thought that how you're reaching your exit velocity has a lot to do with how much spin you can impart on the disc. IS that velocity caused from leverage with good form, or trying to muscle the faster speed into the disc? If were over engaging muscles to create the extra speed, then we are loosing a lot of our limberness in our levers vs using the body to accelerate the levers harder and harder. And it's good to know that somebody has conclusively found that forehands have less spin> Trying to explain this to people is annoying, they dont believe you ever. haha

[@seabas22]

Right people often think FH has more spin than BH, but typically has significantly less - IMO largely due to the difference in ergonomics in grip and swing direction as you can't really grip the opposite of the disc in FH, nor bend your elbow the same. Goes to show that you really can't judge spin rate without proper measurement.

[@sarinhighwind]

​@@seabas22 I used a bit of common sense to figure it out. You're leveraging 1/4 of the disc on a forehand, and on a backhand, you're leveraging half the disc. That and a bit of understanding on flight dynamics and such basically will let you know that if a disc is flipping when it shouldn't, it means there isn't as much spin on it. It's quite frustrating too. Cause I wanna throw some bomb forehand shots sometimes and if I mess that form up and don't get enough rip-ums on that disc, she not gonna fly as intended. Backhand with good basic form will always give you good rotations.

[@nronayne]

You're correct in that spin makes the disc resist turn, but it also makes it resist fade. Basically, spin makes the flight plate face the sky for as long as possible, meaning the disc will generate lift for longer than it would without spin. So spin = distance. The reason the guy on the left didn't throw a roller is probably not because he had more spin, but because he threw an air-bounce. I belive when you air-bounce a disc, it receives the air in such a way that it wants to fade initially out of the hand. This is why it resisted turning into a roller. I think you're right though, that in this video, the biggest difference is probably nose angle. But spin and nose angle together help you get distance.

[@seabas22]

Turn and fade are the same effect of spin or gyroscopic precession. Where the center of pressure sits on the disc due to airspeed and angle of attack(nose angle)(and wing design) determines whether precession manifests as fade or turn. As we know the disc is nose up with the AM it should be fading the entire fight so if had less spin it might start fading harder earlier for all we know, so there is the case that he actually could have more spin on his disc. Speed = distance and spin. The mechanics of leveraging the disc properly will typically increase spin as speed increases.

[@nronayne]

@@seabas22 Not fading the entire flight. Just until the airbounce is over. Then it starts fading again when it loses speed and starts falling. You can actually see it fade to flat during the air-bounce, then get a little bit of flat flight, then fade out at the end. And the disc IS fading harder earlier (than Simon's). I think this is why BH throws tend to go further (farther?) than FH throws, because most people can't get as much spin on the disc with a forehand. I'm forehand dominant, and can throw a FH at higher speeds than a BH, but still throw backhands for distance. And in a case where I'm throwing a max distance forehand, I get less turn, less fade, and more distance if I slow it down a little and focus on spin. Nevertheless, in this video, you're right. The difference is likely more about nose angle than spin.

[@dgpinhighclub4179]

Exactly, spin is distance don't let anyone tell you otherwise and obviously nose angle/height is a huge factor as well as eliminating as much wobble as possible. How on earth speed would equals spin is nonsense. Guess we're gonna have to contact myth busters just to get through to the "I'm right no matter what" but they're really wrong type of people smh.

[@seabas22]

@@nronayne Kind of arguing some semantics, it was never turning over during flight, and can't really tell if it glided flat for anytime as it disappears. Out of the hand it was fading out of anhyzer release. If he had less spin there it would fade harder initially, or more spin and stay straighter, but we don't really know the spin rates, so it's just a what if, and I'm going with some plausible data from Erin Hemmings test results using actual accelerometer to measure spin in a similar situation. I'm not sure how spin is affected during flight after release, but I assume the extra drag created from nose up slows not only the speed down quicker, but the spin as well. So they might even have the same spin and speed at release, but different later in flight. Ryan Sheldon throws his FH nearly as far as Alex Geisinger throws his BH. IMO FH is much harder to throw on higher distance line/trajectory and much easier to torque over.

[@timothy42b]

@@seabas22 I have to side with seabass in this argument. IMO, a disc fades left when the forward speed slows, not when the spin slows (despite what Stokely said in a clinic I went to.) Here is what I think: this is a vector cross product problem and engineering school was 31 years ago so I won't show the math unless you make me. But if you take a gyroscope and tip it, it will resist at a right angle. Tip it forward and it leans left, backwards and it leans right, depending on direction of spin of course. So a disc with nose down is getting pressure on the back edge and leans right, a disc slowing at end of flight is doing the reverse. My discs are always still spinning when they land.

[@flipflat4814]

All of us back in the day who spent many hours on Disc Golf Review knew exactly why Simon's disc were flying further given the same speed 👍. RIP Disc Golf Review😕, now were left with Disc Golf Course Review the diet version of applied physics 😁. Thanks SeaBas22.

[@seabas22]

More like the Facebook version of fake science/news.

[@Juliano_DJOL]

0:40 lol gotta love simon!

[@jonathanhill1547]

Awesome video

[@joshdowden494]

Can you help me wrap my head around why throwing up is better than throwing down? you would think throwing up would cause a nose up angle.

[@seabas22]

Nose angle is relative to the trajectory, not the ground. Throwing upward doesn't = nose up. When you throw upward with the nose down, you minimize lift induced drag on the way up - which would slow the disc down, so the disc carries more forward speed thru the apex into the downward glide out phase assuming you get the disc to turnover to maintain nose down to it's new trajectory going somewhat rightward and then flexing back out straight/leftward. A disc is still a projectile like a football that follows a parabolic flight, just a flatter parabolic with some more left/right curving action. To a point of diminishing returns the higher you can throw the further the disc can potentially glide out further distance on the way down with the nose down. If you watch distance competitions they are typically throwing really high like 60-80' up and about 20 degrees to the left. When you throw downward the only way to not throw into the ground is have the nose up so it bounces back up, but this creates a ton of lift and induces a ton of drag slowing the disc down exponentially.

[@joshdowden494]

@@seabas22 You just blew my mind like 3 different times haha. Gonna think about this the next time I practice in the field. Thanks!

[@Juliano_DJOL]

I've always thought that, against what most people try to say, the more spin I put on a disc the faster it stables up and drops left...

[@tobiaslid8752]

I think this comes down to the fact that when you throw, you don’t actually “put spin on the disc” but it happens by itself with proper form. When a disc fades, I am pretty sure it’s due to the spin slowing down; the disc stabilises when spin reduces.

[@seabas22]

​@@tobiaslid8752 I agree with the first part. However spin stabilizes the disc gyroscopically. The disc fades when the center of pressure/lift is on the front part of the disc. The disc turns when the center of pressure/lift is on the back part of the disc. The disc stays straight when the center of pressure/lift is directly on the center of the disc. As the disc slows down in airspeed the center of pressure/lift moves toward the front part of the disc causing it to fade. The nose angle or angle of attack also affects where the center of pressure/lift is on the disc. Spin gives the disc nose stability or pitch stiffness and holds that initial release angle on the leading edge, however the nose or leading edge of the disc is constantly changing throughout the flight as the disc turns or fades into a different trajectory, so 12 o'clock on the disc at release would the nose, but as the disc turns over the nose is moving toward 1 or 2 o'clock and as it fades moving back toward 10 or 11 o'clock on the disc. If a disc has less spin it will turnover harder and fade harder depending on where the center of pressure/lift is on the disc. So a disc with less spin in fade might appear to behave more stable or overstable as it will fade harder, but it's actually less spin stabilized, and a disc with less spin in turn will also appear to behave less stable or understable as it will turnover harder. And a disc with more spin will turn less and fade less. The disc's inherent aerodynamic stability has to due with its wing design - what is typically referred to as understable or overstable discs. Understable discs typically have a flatter or convex wing which pushes or deflects the airflow more toward the back edge of the disc. Overstable discs typically have a more concave wing which pushes or deflects the airflow more toward the front edge of the disc. So you can make an understable disc behave more overstable by throwing nose up and with less speed. If you throw an overstable disc nose down fast enough or into headwind you can make it behave more understable.

[@eraff1005]

How do you come to the conclusion that Simon's disc is spinning less than his counterpart in this video? Also, It seems that a disc would not fly far if it wasn't spinning....maybe I'm misunderstanding what you've said. If a disc was "propelled" without spin, it doesn't seem likely that it would fly at all...it might "tumble" at some distance, but it seems that Spin is a very large factor in Disc Flight. Apologies if I've not followed your argument, and I am not dismissing the other factors you've mentioned

[@seabas22]

It wasn't my conclusion, it was just a feasible possibility or argument based on Erin Hemmings test results. Just because some spin is good, doesn't always mean more is better, and it's obviously got enough spin on it to not turn over so it's behaving as an effective gyroscope. The biggest difference in the Simon video is the nose angle and trajectory. I don't think changing the spin rate would change the results much, if any.

[@eraff1005]

at 755 on, you seem to conclude that Simon has LESS SPIN.... anyway, it seems that one added achievable test would be to clock the disc at realease, and then to clock it again at subsequent distances---let's say 20-50 ft....get an idea of lost speed...and maybe lost spin too. Also, baseball has done tremendous work on launch angle and spin as they relate to Carry on batted balls----spin matters a whole bunch there. Somebody needs to get some rpm device to unlock some of this. The elusive and obvious question is how to throw a disc at a modest upward trajectory with an also moderate down pitched leading edge.... I'm working on that and allowing speed and spin to work itself out.

[@seabas22]

@@eraff1005Spin rate affects the aerodynamics of a baseball(any ball) significantly much more than a disc due to the different shape/spin axis and skin friction. Not sure if you read the end of the video 9:30+ where Erin Hemmings test results with accelerometer showed that his friend who doesn't throw nearly far had noticeably higher spin rate than him. Erin still holds the World Record for the longest disc throw with an Aerobie Ring. I have a smart disc on order that hopefully arrives in march, so then we can have some more data to work with. Also if you read in the video description... Source about spin's effect on flight: ​"THE FLOW OVER A ROTATING DISC-WING" by Jonathan R. Potts & William J. Crowther Fluid Mechanics Research Group, School of Engineering, University of Manchester, UK "Conclusions: - Spin has a relatively small effect on the aerodynamic forces and moments.

[@just_jedwards]

Not saying your analysis is wrong, but don't you also have to correct for the videos not being shot at the same angle to the horizon? It looks like Simon's is shot a little more tilted which is slightly exaggerating the differences. Even after aligning the horizon in a screenshot from the moment of release, I think you're correct that Simon has a little hyzer, though.

[@seabas22]

Yeah, ideally I wish they had the camera on a tripod, but I think it's clear enough to see the differences. Sure would be nice to have accelerometers and better data.

[@discgolfdetails9889]

Anhyzer "nose up" won't want to turn over though unless the disc is very understable, nose angle is going to effect turn as well. Nose up = less turn , Nose down = more turn

[@anthonytucker4011]

Understable turns over on anhyzer? I thought it does on hyzer to flip to flat

[@discgolfdetails9889]

@@anthonytucker4011A nose up throw effects the ability of the disc to turn. Throw it nose down it might turn and not come back, throw it nose up and it might fly straight to fade. Nose angle is a factor as well to consider.

[@sarinhighwind]

@@discgolfdetails9889 Exactly. A lot of the discs understability is how the air puts pressure on the overall wing of the disc to disturb the spinning stability from the disc. So if you throw nose up, the disc is basically being forced through a stall and far less likely to have the top pressure that forces the downpressure for the turn. But Seabass is very correct in the thought that less spin = more turn. Thats why forehands are usually flippier shots, even from a clean forehand vs the backhand counterpart. People want to say its torque, but its less spin. By torque, they are refering to exit velocity and imparted torque on plane of play, not off axis torque. OAT will almost always cause odd understability.

[@discgolfdetails9889]

@@sarinhighwind I think Seabas said the Am player had more spin, but I really think it was simply nose angle which was causing the disc to fly shorter/not turn. We really don't know the overall stability of the two discs either in question. Simons test was not very scientific in that way. We just don't know what the spin was, I really suspect Simon has more to be honest. Better form, better disc pivot at the end, more spin. As far as FH's go. I think the disc OAT/wobble is more to blame with the disc turning more in flight. I'm not sure spin stabilizes a disc to "straight" during the turning portion of flight. See the wobble is causing the air to force more turn on it, in my estimation anyways. Later in the flight we see the spin hold a disc straighter, longer. I'm not sure if more or less spin effects turn itself, or how it effects the turn portion.

[@seabas22]

@@discgolfdetails9889 Simon said they threw the same disc, so it should be the same stability or close enough and we know the speed was within 1mph, and can see the difference in trajectory, so spin is the biggest question without accelerometer. I'm guessing the AM had more spin based on Erin Hemmings test results with accelerometer and that most AM's actually try to spin the disc rather than eject it with speed as AM's also don't get near to the same velocity as Pros. Also when I stopped trying to spin the disc, and focus more on speed and leverage, my distance jumped way up. The mechanics of leveraging the disc properly typically means that spin rate will also increase with increasing speed. Trying to spin the disc more will typically lead to reduced speed. A disc that wobbles will tend to fly straighter. End over end putts fly dead straight, no turn or fade. Later in the flight, the biggest difference is the nose angle, can't tell what spin is actually, but I think regardless the spin rate difference makes very little difference either way even it's more or less. The turn phase is dictated by where the center of pressure is on the disc which is relative to airspeed and nose angle(and wing design), spin rate will either increase(lower spin) or decrease(higher spin) the magnitude of the turn.

[@Postermaestro]

disc goes shorter when airbounced, how can they not see that lol

[@teraslaakso2144]

other guy said he threw with too much hyzer. maybe they didnt check what they recorded.

[@Thebrianweissman]

Very puzzled by the guy saying at the end that he can throw 80 MPH. There are exactly two active touring pros who can throw that fast, Eagle Mcmahon and Drew Gibson. No one else in the sport known for power can reach 80 MPH, not Ricky, not Paul, not AB and not even Ezra. Who is this Erin Hemmings guy anyway? I do like reading the data about how forehands tend to spin about 25% slower than backhand. That would certainly explain why people can hammer their forehands well over 60 MPH, yet struggle to throw that shot 350 feet. I remember taking my radar gun out after a recent doubles event, and watching guys throw forehands in the 62-64 MPH range, with some barely even throwing 300 feet. Really astonishing when you consider a well-shaped backhand can fly 475 feet when thrown 64 MPH. Thanks for the video Andrew!

[@seabas22]

Erin Hemmings is a legendary distance player and still holds the World Record for the longest thrown disc with an Aerobie Ring over a quarter mile and has multiple throws over 700’ at Big D in the Desert competition with a Roadrunner. His test was actually done with an Ultimate Frisbee, so the spin rpm are actually much higher than they will be with a golf disc which has much higher moment of inertia. Avery Jenkins was measured via video with bar stamp around 1200 rpm on a 500’ Teebird throw and he had unofficially broken Sandstorm’s 820’ record in practice about a decade ago.

[@teraslaakso2144]

simon lizotte 144km/h 89,5mp/h record drive. there is video of this in youtube

[@Beeray11]

AB has been recorded throwing 80, Ryan Sheldon has been recorded throwing 83 sidearm, and Simon has absoluuuuuuuuutely thrown over 80 - pretty sure he has the speed record with a golf disc at 144 kph (89.5 mph). More than exactly two. Not to mention guys who can probably do it but don't usually or don't have speed guns often enough on them, like Ricky, GG, or Ezra, and probably a handful of others. Either way, def more than exactly two.

[@Thebrianweissman]

@@Beeray11 I'm only going by what's appeared in actual tournament coverage. And Ryan Sheldon's 82 MPH achievement was a forehand, a totally different animal from an 80 MPH backhand. I'm sure you could probably take a dozen college-level or higher baseball pitchers, give them a disc, and you'd have guys throwing forehand over 80 MPH in an afternoon. As for the players you listed, I think only Ezra has a shot at hitting 80 MPH. Each MPH increase at those speeds is a mountain to climb, it's not just a matter of slightly better timing. Ricky hasn't thrown faster than 77 MPH ever in competition, and Garrett is miles short of 80 MPH. The difference between Garrett's highest recorded velocity, 74 MPH, and the 80 MPH threshold is galactic. I can't speak to AB hitting 80 MPH. He hasn't done that in coverage as far as I know, though his 78 MPH top speed is close. He's still growing and maturing, so it doesn't strain credulity he might hit 80 MPH eventually. As for Simon's 89.5 MPH throw, that was accomplished with a super light disc, which you can't compare to full weight. The difference a lighter disc makes is profound, it's the reason why Simon can throw almost 10 MPH faster than his fastest speeds on the course.

[@Boltzi]

The other one pulls the disc from hip almost and finishes high, disc flies upwards at least 35% more than lizottes. Lizotte throws like supposed. Nothing weird here.

[@Boltzi]

Gonna edit this: air bounce. Threw the disc at the ground nose up. Not from hip, just seemed like it.

[@Schwick-wc7uo]

Players who throw forehand sometimes use a more stable disc than a backhand shot. More RPM imparted on flicks. Same foward velocity, different results. All pilot variables being equal. Spin rates, RPM's rule.

[@seabas22]

Read the Erin Hemmings quote at the end about FH having 25% less spin than BH. FH typically needs more overstable discs to compensate for lack of spin which turns the disc over more.

[@Schwick-wc7uo]

Couldn't disagree more with the proposal: less spin on flick. Also flight #'s, turn and fade, are directly related to RPM, G forces, spin. Out of hand, highest spin rate, result of g's is to turn disc over. The hyzer flip if intended Midflight, lower RPM, balanced flight, glide and pitch angles dominate. Landing, as soon as spin can't overcome fade gyros, it hooks up, or in the case of a zero fade disc, a soft flat belly landing. Velocity plays the lift roll. Spin, the turn and fade roll. He'll-no. It's not that straight foward. They overlap and blend plenty. But lower arm speed, less RPM throwers, and high speed stable disc, don't go together. Not for optimal flight. Or did I misread ur response

[@seabas22]

​@@Schwick-wc7uo Erin Hemmings measured throws with an accelerometer and he found that FH naturally has about 25% less spin than BH - which makes sense due to the difference in how the arm bends or can't bend around the disc the same way as BH. Spin stabilizes the disc, which is why FH tends to throw more overstable disc to compensate for lack of spin stability compared to BH. Out of the hand - highest speed which turns the disc over when the center of pressure/lift is toward the back edge of the back. Mid flight - lower speed, center of pressure/lift moves toward center or front edge of disc. Landing - disc stalls out due to lack of airspeed moving across the disc wing.

[@Schwick-wc7uo]

If Henning was using a combined gyrometer/accelerameter, then he was able to measure velocity and RPM. I don't know. Do you? Ur flights ratios, speed to lift, at beginning, mid and end; address wing lift, pressure differences on the plate. What's ur explanation for the rotation force and cyclonic air friction affects? The spin we impart doesn't create stability, it offsets the inherent stability of the disc, long enough for it to behave as a wing. No knuckleballs. With a newbie, do we give a stable or neutral, slow disc. Only when they find their power pocket do they get stable high-speed disc. Ok. Some start with them. We're still working this out. Sometimes our data is clouded by intuitive thinking. I'll continue to believe the forehand has better RPM for the simplest reason. The disc is our lone backhand throw. All our other throws/swings are not cross body. The next gen may prove us naive.

[@seabas22]

@@Schwick-wc7uo Here is a chart of the recorded speed and spin data. i.imgur.com/hdjNDqZ.jpg The spin's effect on the air creates some Magnus Effect or sideways lift(and drag) pushing the disc slightly sideways to the right(RHBH). It is not very significant though on a high speed driver because it's wing is very sharp and doesn't have much surface to push against it. Surface roughness plays a bigger role in distance by significantly reducing drag. kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5KthalurLqYpqM Spin's effect on the disc is that it creates gyroscopic stability to offset the disc's inherent aerodynamic instability for it to fly like a wing instead of wounded duck or knuckleball. Airplanes main wing/s are also inherently unstable in order to create lift, but they use a secondary wing or tail wing to help stabilize or counter the lift torque rolling the airplane nose upward, so the tail is counter rolling downward to keep it flying level instead of a loop de loop. The gyroscopic stability in a spinning disc manifests in the lift torque causing the disc to precess in sideways barrel roll 90 degrees to the spin angular momentum. Just to get a rank beginner playing I would suggest a stable putter and a fairway driver like a TL or Valk. After getting hooked and wanting to actually improve I would suggest getting a stack of neutral putters and mids(Comets) and learning to throw them for a month or two, then add fairway drivers and high speed drivers into the mix as you go along. As for FH vs BH and spin, just think about how easy it is to grab the disc on the opposite side wing from your chest and how your elbow bends naturally bringing the disc closer into your center. Now switch to FH and think about how hard it is for you get to your grip on the opposite side of the disc as your arm doesn't naturally want to bend that way nor bring the disc much closer into your center. So if your hand is on the opposite side of the disc BH around 8-9 o'clock on the disc, 12 is target, and you go to release the disc with your hand around the 4 o'clock on the disc, the disc has rotated over 270 degrees before release. With a FH you hand is closer to the 12-1 o'clock on the disc and release around the 6-7 o'clock, the disc has rotated closer to 180 degrees before release. So there is almost 90 degree difference in disc rotation and range of motion just due to how the body works gripping and throwing the disc FH vs BH. 90 degrees is 25% of 360 degrees or a full revolution, so the data finding 25% less spin on the FH throw seems to back up the math.

[@charlessimmons7437]

Well...you're wrong.

[@seabas22]

Lol, no you're wrong.

[@edgalapeaux7965]

very incorrect,,,watch a football pass

[@seabas22]

Once the football has enough spin on it to maintain tight spiral, more spin will not make the football go further, and trying to add more spin would only decrease the amount of linear speed you could create to throw it further. The Am thrower in the video has more than enough spin on the disc to stabilize it from any wobble and keep it from flipping over. He lacks the same max linear speed that Simon is capable of creating, and the angle/trajectory.

[@dgpinhighclub4179]

I've said it a million times on form check facebook it's about spin. I dont care how fast your disc it moving, when it runs outta spin it it will stall and fall period, and that's what throwing putters teaches people. A putter doesn't need speed to fly. It needs spin period end of story.

[@seabas22]

I agree throwing putters is great practice, but I don't think your physics makes much sense. A disc with a lack of spin will tend to turn over, as Erin Hemmings noted FH having 25% less spin than BH and FH tends to turn over more and need more overstable discs to compensate for lack of spin. Stalling has much more to due with angle of attack(nose angle) and airspeed, than spin. A disc will not spin itself forward in the air, it can only move forward in the air due to forward velocity. Also contrary to belief, spin also doesn't create lift or levitation, airspeed or airflow across the disc and angle of attack creates lift. Speed is much more important than spin in throwing for distance. Increasing speed typically also increases spin due to the mechanics of leveraging the disc, until you get really up there in speed and spin starts to have diminishing returns as Erin Hemmings noted. Ken Climo also said to focus on increasing speed rather than spin. Spin just gives the disc stability in the air, as lift torque wants to flip the disc over end over end, but gyroscopic precession rolls the disc 90 degrees to the lift torque chasing the spin angular momentum. I don't think I've ever seen a disc actually run out of spin in the air, often still spinning when it hits the ground and skips.

[@dgpinhighclub4179]

@@seabas22 no spin no speed no flight. It ain't rocket science. In fact a disc can spin fast enough and stay in flight in a single spot without moving

[@seabas22]

@@dgpinhighclub4179 No sir.

[@dgpinhighclub4179]

@@seabas22 @seabas22 just something I picked up while throwing rounds with Josh Anthon but what does a 2nd place world champ know about disc golf, I guess according to physics not much. Sounds like physics has met its match when it comes to disc golf

[@seabas22]

@@dgpinhighclub4179Josh knows how to play, but I don't think he understand physics. Ken Climo said to focus on speed rather than spin.

[@slingshotdiscgolf1897]

Great video