Wokeness and the Church: A Conversation with Owen Strachan

What is wokeness? And why should Christians be concerned about it? In this video, I interview Dr. Owen Strachan, author of the recent book "Christianity and Wokeness." We discuss a range of issues related to wokeness and the church and take live questions.
READ: Christianity and Wokeness, by Owen Strachan: amzn.to/3dxNncc
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[@joshuamelton9148]

Great conversation and one that needs to be had. As a Christian who happens to be black, this Wokeness, Antiracism , CRT/Intersectionality is a Trojan horse. Alot of these ideas has its roots in Marxism but it also has Religious connotations to them. This movement takes advantage of people altruistic tendency of wanting to help people but never answers what the Endgame looks like. Any movement that has to redefine words is a red flag to me.

[@carlosreira413]

That's a good point, brother Joshua. Truth MUST prevail. Table-turning. Revenge. "Black and white" thinking. Divisiveness, anger, wrath, malice, all these things stem from our carnal minds, which created Racism and Slavery and every false human institution in the first place. We Christian MUST acknowledge the sins of our past, repent of our social sins of today, preach and LIVE the Gospel. There will come a solution, but it will come from the Church and the Christian Faith, not godless manifestos.

[@carvellboyce6434]

JOEL 3:1-8 FOR BEHOLD IN THOSE DAYS AND IN THAT TIME WHEN I SHALL BRING AGAIN THE CAPTIVITY OF YAHUDAH AND YERUSALEM I WILL ALSO GATHER ALL NATIONS AND WILL BRING THEM DOWN INTO THE VALLEY OF JEHOSHPHAT AND WILL PLEAD WITH THEM THERE FOR MY PEOPLE AND FOR MY HERITAGE YSRAYL WHOM THEY HAVE PARTED MY LAND AND HAVE CAST LOTS FOR MY PEOPLE AND HAVE GIVEN A BOY FOR AN HARLOT AND SOLD A GIRL FOR WINE THAT THEY MIGHT DRINK YEA AND WHAT HAVE YE TO DO WITH ME O TYRE AND ZIDON AND ALL THE COAST OF PALESTINE WILL YE RENDER ME A RECOMPENSE AND IF YE RECOMPENSE ME SWIFTLY AND SPEEDILY WILL I RETURN YOUR RECOMPENSE UPON YOUR OWN HEAD BECAUSE YE HAVE TAKEN MY SILVER AND MY GOLD AND HAVE CARRIED INTO YOUR TEMPLES MY GOODLY THINGS THE CHILDREN OF ALSO OF YAHUDAH AND CHILDREN OF YERUSALEM HAVE YE SOLD UNTO THE GRECIANS THAT YE MIGHT REMOVE THEM FAR FROM THEIR BORDER BEHOLD I WILL RAISE THEM OUT OF THE PLACE WHITHER YE HAVE SOLD THEM AND WILL RETURN YOUR RECOMPENSE UPON YOUR OWN HEAD AND I WILL SELL YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS INTO THE HAND OF THE CHILDREN OF YAHUDAH AND THEY SHALL SELL THEM TO THE SABEANS TO A PEOPLE FAR OFF FOR YAHOSHUA HATH SPOKEN IT

[@aldocardenas3282]

I am hispanic. Born in Guatemala but as an American Citizen who has lived in this wonderful Country since 1986, and obviously not white, I am so disappointed to see that the same ideology, that was pushed in Guatemala by Communism, but now with a different cover, is being pushed and worse than that, is being bought by Christianity in this Country. Let me explain how it works: Because at the core, you will find Division. And that's what they want. * It all begins by making people believe that there is a big problem of "unfairness" and this creates two sides: Oppressors Vrs Oppressed. * Then you are challenged to decide to which group you belong. The first one has "privileges " that the second group lacks. * Obviously, those so called "Oppressed" Become victims, even though, they possess the freedom to do whatever they want. * Next, Charismatic Leaders who understand the problem demand that the other group pay for their sins. * Anyone who opposses to align with them, automatically become oppressors. * Then the demands increase and the division widens. * Then they use the political system to impose their Ideology. At the end, all hell brakes loose because the so called victims will never stop until they get their way. I just described Marxist Ideology and strategy. Same source. Same methodology Same results. Please don't buy into this lie. Critical Race Theory Is more of the same we have experienced in Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Cuba, Bolivia and now Argentina. Stop worshipping leaders and start to think for yourselves!! They will make you feel that if you if you disappoint them, you're disappointing God Himself!

[@aims_james5013]

About 2 years ago my sister suggested White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo for a book club a handful of friends, her and I had gotten together for. We all came from different backgrounds and some believing in God to various degrees and some Christian or past Christians. When I read that book I was thrown for a loop and really confused. I found myself really wrestling with the ideas put forth. I was committed to going through it and keeping an open mind aiming to be a sincere seeker of truth. I got a lot of grief from the others during the discussion when that evening came as I didn’t fully accept many of the arguments made. I was definitely the odd man out amongst the group. All that to say watching this and hearing another perspective and specifically a perspective that is grounded in biblical truth has been so incredibly helpful. I am so grateful for people like this engaging these types of difficult topics in our culture today with grace and truth. Can’t express how much this content has helped me. Special thanks to Sean McDowell for putting out such great content.

[@stevenwiederholt7000]

"I got a lot of grief from the others during the discussion when that evening came as I didn’t fully accept many of the arguments made. I was definitely the odd man out amongst the group." In Other Words You Were Sane.

[@jeffainsley6000]

Owen is simply ferocious. So thankful for him.

[@Paul-qr7hu]

Woke means the pursuit of power by viewing humanity through the lens of oppression. Read Noelle Mering’s book, Awake, not woke. It’s superb.

[@goldenboy7819]

I tend to lean toward Dr. Owen. Great discussion as Sean you always do.

[@JimKilson]

Thank you Owen for bringing some clarity in a world inundated by absurdity!

[@jennifernihongi9696]

This was very helpful. It's important to understand the woke ideology and as Dr. Owen Strachan is getting at, to approach this with grace and not try to win a debate, but to help the person who may be caught up in this. Thank you again Sean, keep these interviews coming! :)

[@athisfeet34]

I am so glad I listened to this, it goes to what many young people are struggling with in post Appartheid South Africa!

[@neelhalli]

At 26:00 no one can repent of someone else's sin because you are not responsible for what that person did in the past. If a person cannot forgive and forget sins of the past, God will not forgive and forget that person sins.

[@ianweeden7243]

I understand that many of these discussion are centred around North American current events and in a North American context and we learn greatly from them. However, I believe it would be helpful to occasionally broaden your discussion and consider the international context. For instance, taking countries in Southern Africa we have affirmative action for over 30 years prejudicing racial groups other than Blacks. Lands taken without compensation. Xenophobic attacks etc. I see events and major cultural shifts taking place internationally and it would be helpful if the discussion could be broadened to cover our response to prejudice and injustice, not just in North America. About to pass through our parliament is a ‘Hate speech’ bill and our ‘Equity act’ is about to impact, and possibly stifle, the proclamation of truth and free speech. Truth today is being overwhelmed by information and disinformation. World-views have been radically distorted and the definitions of good and evil have lost their distinctions. The real problem is not the colour of my skin or if I am the oppressed or the oppressor. Indeed the heart of man is deceitfully wicked. These discussions are most helpful in order for us to learn and to reach out in love and to engage those that would differ from our worldview.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Great suggestion, thanks.

[@rwalt66]

I love Owen, Just ordered his book. But it’s funny to me how he’s always wearing Nike gear and that is the Wokest company on the planet.

[@biddiemutter3481]

Perhaps not the best choice of outfit for a video interview!

[@PiRobot314]

I want to believe that the offspring does not need to repent of the sin of the parent, but how so we deal with times where God punished the child directly for the sin of the parent? -Exodus 11:4-10 -Deuteronomy 23:3 -2 Samuel 12:14

[@thefoundfountain1855]

Although I am not smart enough to debate somebody at your level, There does need to be a debate on this! I can have a debate with somebody at my intelligence level and prove systemic racism against white people, but they can't seem to prove systemic racism against black people in this country today. I can turn on the news and hear racial slurs against white people and putting white people down regularly, but never against blacks. I can watch a movie at the theater and hear slurs against white people and putting white people down but never against blacks or any other race. I can watch a TV show or series and hear slurs against white people etc... There are extra laws protecting minorities in this country there is no extra laws protecting white people. There are scholarships for every race and every group you can think of except white people. I have had this discussion with many people plus I would like to add that the white race has a great history and a bad history just like every other race this debate needs to be had.

[@thefoundfountain1855]

Ok! Everyone seems to always want to ask about slavery and racist white past but never bring up the other half the white people that fought against slavery and was against it and wanted equality for everybody and there was a war fought in mostly white people died I'll bring up the fact that all white Nations have no abolished slavery but they're still open slavery in other nations yes there are sections of every racist past that are good and bad but I think there are amazing things in white history that should be praised but we're not allowed to or we're called a racist

[@bonsaipiper3773]

@@thefoundfountain1855 We were a British colony until 1791. The slaves were freed in 1862. In seventy one years we ended a system that had been around long, long before our founding. Can't think of any other nations that did the same so quickly. I agree with everything you have said.

[@cccc13.]

🧠This thought popped into my head randomly at @5:04 : but does it make 🇪🇨Ecuador inherently racist because natives killed Jim Elliot and the others because they didn’t look like them?

[@leeannmartin7669]

Hate isn't anger, it is Fear imho. Romans 10:13.

[@leeannmartin7669]

I'm a Born again believer, white, 59 and female. I'm ignorant regarding sociology and crt. I am a depraved sinner saved by the blood of Jesus. John 3:16-17. Jesus, friend of sinners. I will follow Him forever, If He will have me. Love in Messiah Yeshua,Lee.

[@helenal.7881]

Great video! A must see! Thank you Dr McDowell and DR Strachan

[@sidepot]

Just two more idiots spewing their rubbish.

[@richhazeltine1413]

I saw two privileged white males reinforcing they rightness. Hardly idiots; they should be wiser.

[@helenal.7881]

@@richhazeltine1413 sad how you think! you are the racist. I bet you’re a Democrat too. They tend to go hand and hand.

[@helenal.7881]

@@sidepot and you’re an idiot spewing your rubbish on KZbin. You could not hold a mini candle to DR McDowell or Dr. Stachan. But keep beatin your chest to pretend you know something.

[@richhazeltine1413]

How re you Hebrew Helena? I happen to be 1/2 Jewish by DNA. I wonder at your sweeping judgement of over half of the citizens of the USA! So many leftists! And none of them (real) Christians?

[@karenharding8747]

Not what I was expecting... according to Strachan I must be woke! I didn't think I was! We have some similar issues in Australia. We did eventually say 'Sorry' as a nation to our indigenous people groups. We may not be personally accountable, but needed to take steps to acknowledge the past damage done, in a manner meaningful to our indigenous brothers and sisters. It is only the first step and not a magic solution. The only way forward is engagement. CRT may be extreme, and I don't think I understand it completely, but we do need to teach historic truth, and then disprove it (its ongoing impact or presence) by our future actions. I don't subscribe to its ideology but see how the inequity plays out in society in various forms, not just racial. It's human nature to feel safe in a socially homogenous setting and shy away from social and cultural differences. I try to challenge that discomfort in myself. There is a deep spiritual wound. Denial does not heal it. Lord, give us humility and guide us as we seek your healing.

[@carlosreira413]

Excellent comment, sister Karen. I hope hundreds of Americans read this, as we are evidently not alone in this wave of awareness. We Christians have to take the conductor's position or else this train is going to de-rail. There's just so much weightiness to it and we live in these "post-truth" times in which passionate ideals are as valid as objective facts. "Denial will not heal it," well said.

[@zose6289]

As there is no concept of collective guilt, so there is no collective "sorry" or forgiveness. It is only left-wing politicking in the service of a political goal of dividing people to which people with pathological guilt trip or pathological puritanism fall. You are one of those, and as such, though unaware of woke ideology, you are psychologically a very “fertile ground” for wokeism. The world will never become perfect, society will never become perfect. Heaven on earth will never happen. The best that can be achieved has already been achieved in terms of politics, it takes time to fine-tune. And yes, there is no collective healing, especially for the people who don't have a reason to feel guilty since they have done nothing wrong in racial terms in their whole life.

[@carlosreira413]

@@zose6289 "Forgive US our trespasses..."

[@zose6289]

@@carlosreira413 Well Carlos, wokeism is a religion, or rather a religious cult that under the radar wants to infiltrate Christianity and completely change it from within. Which would then be the basis for a completely different morality from Christian morality, and Christianity in general. Practically this would turn into a matter of complete opposition to Christianity. You should know what the essential opposite of Christianity is. You as a Christian should know this, or at least not meddle in things that are beyond your intellectual reach or knowledge of the subject. If anything, you should at least know that Marxism and neo-Marxist ideas are based solely on a material worldview, which means they do not recognize any transcendence like God or Christianity, and Wokeism has its ideological roots in Marxism, neo-Marxism, postmodernism and, more recently, intersectionalism. .

[@carlosreira413]

@@zose6289 "Let both grow together until the harvest..."

[@leslie.s1960]

Thank you for this interview, Sean. It was a very interesting and informative discussion; very helpful. May God bless you and Dr. Owen!

[@SeanMcDowell]

You bet, Leslie!

[@katehillier1027]

Will order book plus vloddie book as well. Sanity in a horrible (church) world of woke anti racism.

[@peterchen16888]

Maybe start by getting it out of Biola for starters.

[@RandallvanOosten-ln5wf]

Thomas Aquinas used the terminology "Corrupt Customs." By this Aquinas meant that a society can develop behaviors (e.g. lying, cheating, stealing, etc.) that it approves but are against God's law and natural law. Therefore, children can grow up in that society believing and acting against God's will simply because they accept these things as customary. Polygamy might be an example. Idolatry, of course, is often received as customary. Traditionally, Christianity has confronted and dealt with societies with corrupt customs. This has been done through conversion and sanctification--usually one-on-one.

[@renier4415]

Thank you for what you do Sean. God bless you.

[@joeysforza]

So clear and helpful unlike so many hyper woke types

[@clarkbolinger8570]

Great wisdom from Owen here

[@dozzlander9809]

You said the American slavery was worse than Hebrew (biblical) slavery because it was rooted in racism and you are probably correct. The biblical rules for slavery were equivalent to biblical/old testamental rules for vengeance of eye for eye rather than a whole family for an eye. It's worth mentioning that slavery has always been and still is practiced. And slave trade routes were going in various directions. It's a matter of fact that there were more white slaves taken into Africa than black slaves out of it. Hence the commonly accepted term to call people from central and eastern Europe Slavs. They were priced for centuries for their blue eyes, white skin and ability to work hard like animals. Wasn't it racist?

[@lbamusic]

God will decide who will be held guilty for the sins of ancestors or others, and for which sins. I hear no acknowledgement of God's sovereignty that will sort this out righteously! Maybe we are too invested in our own versions that our pride insists must win! If you are one of those, you will lose.

[@timffoster]

Help me out - where does it say that God will hold people accountable for the sins of their ancestors?

[@lbamusic]

@@timffoster ..glad you asked..read Rev. 20:11-15 if you believe the Bible. Also there are verses in the Bible where God says the sins of the fathers will be passed down to the 3rd and 4th generations.

[@joshuamelton9148]

@@lbamusic That is not entirely accurate. The bible explicitly state you are charged by your own sins and not by your fathers. Ezekiel Chapter 18 completely destroyed that argument an particularly in Verse 20 " The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." The verses that you list are Incumbent on those continuing the practice of their parents. Here is an illustration if you're grandfather was a thief , and your father was a father and finally it reaches the grandson and the grandson continues in stealing then those verses that you stated would apply. 2nd scenario is the same as above but the difference is the grandson does not continue with the practice of his father and his grandfather of stealing then he will no suffer the sins of his father and grandfather.

[@timffoster]

@@lbamusic You didn't answer the question I asked. Rev 20 says that God will hold people accountable for *their* sins; it says nothing about holding them accountable for their parent's sins. Secondly, there are several places where God says He will pass the sins/guilt of the fathers to the 3rd and 4th generation (eg, Exod 34:6-7; Num 14:18-23, etc) But here is your error: this has to do with God's divine right to transfer the consequences of sin from one person to another. This is *****NOT***** the same as "holding people accountable for the sins of their ancestors". So I ask again: where in the Bible does it say that God holds people accountable for the sins of their ancestors? I believe there is no such passage anywhere, and therefore strongly suggest you change your thinking accordingly.

[@timffoster]

@@joshuamelton9148 You're holding Ezek 18 over and against Exod 34 as if one is right and the other is wrong. Unfortunately, this means you are misunderstanding both. Exod 34 is about God's right to "visit sins" from one person to another. This right is exclusively God's. Deut 24:16 and Exod 18 make it abundantly clear that Man is **never** allowed to do this. ..even though God does. Thanks.

[@bryansyme6215]

I have the strong impression that any proof he's given will not be enough.

[@4624Denise]

So good!! So balanced between Truth and grace; thank you! I will be sharing this.

[@melissarodriguez5237]

Truly geeking out over these two together on one interview!! Giggled when I heard “Owen Straw-ken” 😅

[@savannahrhodes7259]

It would've been hard for me not to correct the mispronunciation of my name, lol. He overlooked it like a pro! 😂

[@sarw9294]

Me too ☺️

[@sarahsays194]

I'm in the confused column now lol. I thought I fell under the belief of systematic racism but I'll admit I haven't really done any research over what it really entails, or what the opposing side entails. Granted, I'm not outspoken about it, but it's good to thoroughly understand why you believe what you believe on Amy subject. I'm going to need to crack open some books.

[@Luke_Radiosmash]

We can learn from those with a different background, but skin color does not equal different background or at least is not necessarily the fundamental difference in background. To admit that it is practically affirms the idea of systemic racism. Because you're agreeing that this person must have been treated differently merely based on skin color. I guess the other reason a minority would have a different experience is the degree to which they associate more with their subculture than the general culture. Leftists encourage subculture over American culture. Anyway, this would give them a different cultural experience and I'm not opposed to hearing about *anyone's* subculture, be that due to their race, religion, family, etc. But I'm not going to assume subculture based on subculture.

[@benjiradach347]

Dr. McDowell, Dr. Sowell's Charter Schools And Their Enemies is a good one to read regarding educational disparities. Weirdly enough, it's usually the woke that oppose something that will help the disadvantaged--i.e., school choice. Talk about systemic injustice.

[@SeanMcDowell]

Good tip. I haven’t read that one.

[@carlosreira413]

Sowell is a deceitful polemicist. And no historian. His selection of evidence is simply unfair, and finally based upon himself as the paragon. Well look, he's a superman. Ninety, he looks 60, better than 60. He's tall, handsome, full head of hair, charming, smooth-skinned, intelligent, persuasive, well-spoken, confident, capable. But is he a Christian?

[@benjiradach347]

@@carlosreira413 If you are a Christian, you would do well not to cast aspersions against people without proof to back up your words. Evidence collection is neither fair nor unfair; it either properly takes into account the relevant variables or it doesn't. In which case, the conclusions drawn therefrom are either warranted or unwarranted. You haven't shown that Sowell's data collection methodology is lacking in some relevant manner, and thus his conclusions therefrom are unwarranted. You've simply made an assertion--couched in vacuous rhetoric. Common sense should tell you that the validity of his conclusions as to historical, economic and sociological data has little to do with whether he is a Christian or not. Your question--in the last sentence of your comment--appears to take it for granted that Christians never lie, and non-Christians never tell the truth--which is obviously false--you are making the genetic fallacy. I imagine you won't find a Doctor's or mechanic's diagnosis to be false simply because that person is not a Christian now would you (or maybe you would). Sadly, with your comment above you've acted less Christian than the person whose Christianity (or lack thereof) you've called into question, since he, more often than not, backs up his claims with evidence. If you do have evidence, however, do provide it. If not, you would do well to repent.

[@carlosreira413]

@@benjiradach347 Brother Benji, that's absurd for a man of Sowell's stature and his experience, He is as much a tenured Academic who sells books same as any of the Liberals of which accuses the maintenance of intellectual hegemony. There are STRUCTURAL reasons why the black inner cities exist in the first place! Sowell's whole M.O. is this: Look at me; I'm proof you can do it. That's great. But is LeBron the proof that any black kid can dominate the NBA? Inspiration is good. But Sowell's arguments are simply good topics for for further research. He writes thesis after thesis, in the sense of ideas for argumentation. He NEVER has written a comprehensive thesis on ANYTHING. Even Howard Zinn attempted to thoroughly trace injustice in America in his opus, "A People's History of the United States." But he of course curated his evidence to support his predetermined thesis, that the country was blatantly unfair from the word GO. For this reason, Sowell is highly persuasive. His audience is ignorant. They don't know the questions yet. Sowell has the answers. But Sowell makes up his own questions. Victor Davis Hanson, and others like them, all do this. In this way, they are no better than the Ivy League liberals that they fight against. They are the same thing, simply competitors, like athletes, like Nadal vs Federer, something like that. Not Djokovich! (that was a joke, at least an attempted one). So why was there black chattel slavery here, and why was it persistent, if such a thing were unremarkable historically? How is the United States "exceptional" except when it comes to slavery in which she is unexceptional. These kinds of ideas are disingenuous coming from a man like Sowell. His other theses are likewise interesting, and controversial, but historically unsatisfactory.

[@lbamusic]

@@carlosreira413 Sowell is an atheist!

[@michellebaran5933]

Love this and agree!

[@jenniferwatson7118]

Interesting thankyou!

[@theverdantwolf5402]

I don't disagree with his arguments, until he starts talking about economic inequality and biblical slavery. I wish I had made the live chat, there would have been significantly more push back. Like his example of the brothers. The choice of being a basket Weaver or CEO is social freedom, but the CEO making 50mil a year while his 40-100 employees lack healthcare is injustice and not a free liberty choice of the employees, and they could get a better job" is not an acceptable counter when the country can't find enough menial labor already. Even slavers provided doctors to protect their investments. He makes the argument that Christian's wrongly justified slavery, which I agree, but then goes on to half way defend the predatory unregulated capitalism we have now that allows the wealthy to turn the poor into prey, constantly taking tax payer money while telling tax payers they are on their own. We already have a socialist government, it's just one way, up, we haven't been capitalist since the bail outs in 08. I do agree it's not racial anymore, it's selfish elitism, greed, and corruption, but let's all argue about racism and crazy people on Twitter, that will fix it.

[@Greywolfgrafix]

I'm leery of anyone who goes on about 'economic inequality'. That's a huge red flag to me, because I recognize it as Leftist double-speak. It's propaganda. Bringing up "Biblical slavery", to me, suggests they want to make the Bible 'racist' because of the references to slavery which have nothing to do with our day and time. The Hebrews were in bondage to Egypt and other counties as well, such as Babylon, then later Rome. That doesn't make the Bible racist. It's stating historical fact.

[@theverdantwolf5402]

@@Greywolfgrafix - Sorry, but I have to disagree, economic inequality is not double speak or propaganda. You can clearly see how it happens in the tech world since the 80s. When Microsoft started it made more millionaire secretaries and grounds keeper's than any company before it until wallstreet became involved. My job, I started twenty years ago at a higher pay rate than the kids starting now will ever see. It's pure greed and selfish elitism that tells the wealthy their success matters more than the people they hire to do the actual work so they pay as little as possible while keeping as much as they can. The richest man in the world just launched himself into space with government subsidies paying for the fuel, while his employees are fighting for fans and bathroom breaks, and he had the nerve to thank them for paying for his space trip and now doesn't understand why his employees are mad. They do not see their own responsibility for their employees or customers, their responsibility becomes all about the shareholders and their personal wealth and influence. It's literally in IPO paperwork and the reason places like Publix will not do an IPO and go public because they would not be able to keep their benefits. The problem is greed and selfish elitism causing massive amounts of corruption so they all want to get into the stream of tax payer cash constantly going out as subsidies to prop up the businesses of billionaires while the rest of get personal responsibility and to figure it out for ourselves, barely scraping by, while working our butts off. If I was starting my career now, I wouldn't work in the US, period, not worth my time for the pay.

[@majose7787]

This guy uses Voddie Baucham as an example....a black guy who just happens to agree with EVERYTHING he says. Where is his engagement with solid black Christians who DISAGREE with him?

[@jeremyedgar7123]

Did he not write a book on the topic? Read it.

[@majose7787]

@@jeremyedgar7123 what exactly is your point here?

[@vanessaingersoll7140]

@@majose7787 probably that Voddie isn’t the only black man who agrees with him. There are many.

[@majose7787]

@@vanessaingersoll7140 well aware of that, we the black race aren't a monolith. My point was that critics of so called "wokeness" only ever engage with black people who think like them. There's no serious engagement with solid black (or white) believers who aren't CRT advocates but see serious systemic racial issues in America. Because of this, opportunities for genuine understanding are missed. Instead we get lazy stereotyping and strawmanning like Owen did in this video.

[@kevinh.6556]

@@majose7787 I agree with you. I really like Sean, but I think he needs to have discussions like this between someone like Owen Strachan and a knowledgeable, black Christian who has actually lived and suffered through the systemic racism that currently exists in the United States. It's easy to have discussions like this when there's no one present who has legitimate experiences and understands the Bible as thoroughly as you do. This sort of discussion needs to be a civil debate. Sean tries really hard in this interview, but Owen has basically just been given a platform to preach to the choir. In the end, it's not intellectually honest, and actually cheapens his argument.

[@zhugh9556]

I guess Voddie Baucham is a good source on CRT when he can be pulled away from beating up on small children.

[@tamaragrooms9369]

Great takeaway: Christianity cannot be mixed with worldly ideologies.

[@carlosreira413]

Nor can it be mixed with the Law of Moses. But tell me, sister Tamara, WHY can it not be mixed? What happens?

[@tamaragrooms9369]

Because it leads to the gospel being distorted.

[@helenal.7881]

@@carlosreira413 seriously??? Do you not read the Bible??? CRT is demonic. The Law of Moses is NOT and ordained by God Almighty. Unlike CRT. Jesus said that “NOT ONE DOT OR TITTLE OF THE LAW will pass..ALL will be fulfilled”!!!! Get educated. Not woke!

[@carlosreira413]

@@helenal.7881 But sister it WAS ALL FULFILLED. At least the Legal portion was. So I don't need to explain this to a "Hebrew:" The "Law" is many things in the Scripture. It is the Torah, or Pentateuch, the first 5 books of the Hebrew Bible, what we call the Old Testament. Sometimes called "Moses" for short. Even Jesus does this, evidently following the Pharisaical tradition of his time. An example would be found in the Parable of Abrahams's Bosom: "But Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'" (Luke 16:29) Another, less obvious, example would be when the Lord rebukes the Pharisees: "Do not think I will accuse you before the Father. You have one who accuses you, Moses in whom you have put your trust." (John 5:45) Ok, the Pharisees and other Jews did not REALLY worship Moses or trust in Moses personally as a man to save them, but in the testimony of Moses, the written and oral tradition of the Torah. Ok, we need to appreciate this kind of figurative language. We know that the word Tanakh is an acronym for the 3 parts of the Judaic Scriptures: T Torah (Torah) A N Neviim (the Prophets) A K Ketuvim (the Writings, the poetic, historical, and wisdom literature) H Now, it gets even more difficult, when we understand that the word "law" might refer to the WHOLE body of scripture. Here's an example. Again Jesus speaking: "Is in not written in your law, 'I have said you are gods'?" (John 10:34) But if we check our cross reference, we see Jesus is quoting Psalm 82, not the Torah: "I have said, 'You are gods; you are sons of the Most High.'" (Psalm 82:6) So this is the sense that "law" is used in the famous Psalm 119--the testimonies, utterances, precepts, principles, statutes, sayings, etc of God, ALL of it is food for the soul, revelation, and cosmically eternal. So, in light of these things, when the Lord says the jot and tittle thing, He's telling us something profound. It's not Moses and the commandments which will stand forever, but "My words:" "Heaven and Earth SHALL PASS AWAY, but my words shall never pass away." Now THIS saying is found in ALL 3 synoptic Gospels. Like the Parable of the Seed, and only a couple of things. Whenever we find something testified by all three, we need to pay attention. It is a very important truth of the New Covenant. The references are: Matthew 24:35 Mark 13:31 Luke 21:33 So, there remains MANY things to yet occur before Christ is made Lord of the Earth: "We do not yet see all things put under His feet." (Hebrews 2:8) If we know our Torah, then we know all about the feasts, especially the three required "pilgrimage" feasts, in which sacrifice is to made by one's physical presence at the temple in Jerusalem. We know for example, that Christ is the Lamb of God, a direct reference to the Passover, one of the required feasts. We find Him in Jerusalem at least twice for the Passover, once before his death, and at his death. If it's not clear to anyone, Paul makes it so: "Christ our Passover has been sacrificed." (1 Corinthians 5:7) Pentecost, the second feast, aka Shavout or the Feast of Weeks has been observed by the coming of the Holy Spirit to those waiting in the upper room at Jerusalem 50 days after the resurrection (itself a fulfillment of the Feast of Firstfruits, which is part of the triple feast of Passover, Unleavened Bread, and Firstfuits, all successive without any space of days between them). Ok, so two down, one to go, and that's Tabernacles, aka Booths, or Tents, or Sukkot, a backward looking feast which commemorates the time spent in the wilderness living in tents, without a permanent home. We read in Hebrews: "There remains therefore a rest for the people of God..." Here the idea is one a permanent Sabbath. It ties into the feast of Tabernacles, and the time spent in the Wilderness under Moses, the typology of course of the Law, the 40 years of testing, the tent (tabernacle) of meeting and all those things. We know this from the preceding verse: "For if Joshua (son of Nun) had given them rest, God would not have spoken about a later day to come." (Hebrews 4:8) Interestingly enough, Paul's former occupation and trade is tentmaker. So, there's much to look into here in terms of the Feasts. They are all fulfilled in Christ, but it has to be maintained that there is also a chronological element to them which relates to the Church Age, a Dispensational element. The first two have been fulfilled, but the 3rd shall not be fulfilled until the full harvest of souls has occurred: "And this gospel shall be proclaimed throughout the world as a witness to all nations, and THEN the end will come."(Matthew 24:14) And, we have Paul's witness: "I would not have you be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters....Israel has experienced a hardening in part UNTIL THE FULL NUMBER of the Gentiles has come in." (Romans 11:25) I hope this makes sense, and clarifies my position. Here is a link to an old treatise on the Feasts. Other than the use of name "Jehovah," it's excellent. If the link doesn't work, Google George Christopher Willis, "The Feasts of Jehovah." bibletruthpublishers.com/the-seven-feasts/george-christopher-willis/the-seven-feasts-of-jehovah/g-c-willis/la130647 Blessings of revelation, joy, prosperity and peace and victory in all things to you and your household of faith, as it is written: "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved, you AND your house." (Acts 16:31). (Remember that in the Passover ALL in the household were protected by the blood.) Now, we didn't get into HOW the righteous requirements of the Law are fulfilled, but this is Paul's main thrust in the book of Romans, and requires quite a lot of commentary, or simply good Holy Ghost wisdom to understand!

[@kevinodom2918]

Now that I think about it, where did all of them go? I did hear about Nicole hannah jones w the 1619 project getting uninvited to some wealthy elite private school.. How many times before you learn your lesson. for 30 yrs these same promises are made but never kept.

[@lbamusic]

The only thing really important is, what does Almighty God see and know about racism, white supremacy, and systemic and institutional racism? Those on either side of this issue, must and will bow to God's Righteous judgement and justice at His awesome meet and greet in Rev.20:11-15. Whether Woke or anti-Woke, His seeing and knowing what's really in your hearts will determine where you will spend eternity. Praise God!

[@josephinemorgan6582]

America is not Racist. You keep saying racist,you can make people think it.

[@jj4068]

But they killed Native Americans for being Native Americans on their land so that they can possess it and you see that is not racist they weren’t recognized as for humans that’s not racist they were put in concentration camps to kill the Indian and save the child that’s not racist And all of this is being swept under the rug kept out of the eye of the world until now but you don’t want to teach that you want to keep it under the rug I see that is racist

[@josephinemorgan6582]

@@jj4068 well run around saying America a racist,your choice,shove this woke crap to are children in schools,and see where that gets ya. Again America is not racist,America was founded on Christianity.

[@richhazeltine1413]

Sean McDowell doesn't read the comments I guess, too busy. I would like his response to my understanding of apologetics.

[@Fool0f4Took]

I think Biola offers an MA in Christian apologetics... it seems like these videos would be a great platform for some of those students to moderate questions and comments.

[@SeanMcDowell]

I do my best. As you can imagine, there’s thousands across different videos. I understand your concern and would just say that apologetics entails answering non-believers but also defending biblical ideas related to doctrine, as we do in this video. Christians have been engaging cultural ideas since the first century. You’re certainly welcome to disagree with this interview, but it’s in line (tactically speaking) with the apologetics task and the commands in scripture to preach and defend sound doctrine (Titus 1:9)

[@ChinoValley]

Sean, your sound still needs work. I can’t hear you as well as I can hear the guest..

[@christopherromero7670]

This guy is all over the place.

[@jamesbrixey8102]

So I want to believe that Strachan is acting in good faith. I live in England and, if the evidences I hear for America being systemically racist, if they are true, are relatively hard to deny. Now of course, the systemic racism is not of the magnitude of slavery or segregation necessarily. But that does not mean it is not there.

[@timffoster]

Define "systemic racism".

[@jamesbrixey8102]

@@timffoster OK. Systems, at a national, state or otherwise corporate level, that benefit people of one race or ethnicity, whilst failing to benefit, or indeed actively harming, one or multiple other races or ethnicities.

[@amyclutter7259]

I would venture to say the evidences you hear are untrue.

[@iceman4660]

@@jamesbrixey8102 If the starting point is that all inequalities are down to so called systemic racism then there is a problem. The lack of a father, life style choices are factors that are often ignored because they don't fit the narrative.

[@jamesbrixey8102]

@@iceman4660 if a person comes from a broken home or has a bad attitude, this will affect his life. No one questions this. However: when identical resumes with predominantly 'white sounding' names get accepted more than resumes with predominantly 'black sounding' names, when black people get longer sentences in prison for equal crimes, then it strikes me as disingenuous to chalk all inequality down to merely bad attitude. Which, for the record, is not something you should assume of anyone until you have gotten to observe them directly.

[@erictetreault2987]

🙏❤✝️

[@joeysforza]

Yep. If it’s biblical for white people need to repent of ancestral sin so does EVERY person needs to repent of their own parents sins.

[@tomkeller6982]

I think the term "image bearer" and "deconstruction" are used far too often and far too generally. Stop using them. Use the English word that accurately defines what you're describing.

[@jeanpointdujour9037]

Owen Strachan will eventually learn that body language and tone speak volume, and louder than words. I pray that God teach him to apply his heart unto wisdom a great deal.

[@psharelater172]

The administration of capital punishment in Alabama is every bit as systemically racist as the 1901 Alabama Constitution under which it operates; and under which the public school system struggles with most of white Alabama never having concluded we ought have one system for OUR children.

[@rickmathews4101]

Nike went woke! Just saying

[@jarvellbell2570]

The guest’s consistent verbiage of “so-called” is slightly triggering. As if racism is not still prevalent. As if it’s currently imaginary. Trying to keep an open mind to his point of view, but it’s kind of difficult.

[@partoftheway4235]

Those people who are truly born again part of the true body of Christ will see right through the deceptions of the false doctrines put forth by satan. Now I do not judge a persons salvation at all. So could some if these pastors teaching those false doctrines be saved? That I do not know? Nor do I worry about that unless I personally knew one of them. I do not know their heart and what they truly believe concerning Jesus Christ and his death and ressurection? But will I submit to teachings that are unscriptural? No I will not! Nor do I have to! I'm responsible for me myself and I pertaining to what I personally believe concerning doctrines. I'm not even responsible for my spouse or my kids and what they personally believe! I can only present real truth to them. Then it's up to them to form their own beliefs. And it's up to them to check for theirslef to see if it's scriptural. Yes I can show the scriptures. But then they can investigate it farther and pray about it. Then recieve it as truth or not?

[@Unnamedsource.]

I pray Owen repents and becomes a follower of Christ and not worldly philosophy. Who cares about "systemic racism" in a culture when speaking of the gospel. There is no connection between ANY culture and the gospel. That is why the gospel is given to all cultures from the best to the worst. Sad to see a man sell his soul for the accolades of other men. Especially the evil men of the woke religion.

[@jamesbertram7925]

As a Scot from Scotland, this is like listening to your attempt to justify your belief that you are a Christian nation built on Christian principles, after you almost destroyed the nationhood of the native Indian race and imposed your white supremacy on them, without gas chambers As a bible believing Christian, I believe that God elected the seed of Abraham from Isaac to be his elect nation, and calls them a great nation in Genesis chapter 11 etc and gave them a chosen land, called Caanan, forever, and commanded His servant Moses and those who followed him like Joshua to kill every man, woman, and child, in that land belonging to the Amorite nations, as the seed of Abraham, and the Amorite nations belonged to the Middle East, it is likely that the pigmentation of their skin was similar, so their election by God had nothing to do with the color of their skin However, God does elect some people on this planet to be His chosen and elect people, and not others, that basis of this choice is not on the pigmentation of their skin, but on their moral and spiritual character and conduct, because God spared these Amorite nations for four hundred years while His elect people were punished in slavery in Egypt for their idolatry because these Amoritite nations were not wicked enough to be wiped out by God But after this Elect seed of the children of Abraham were redeemed by blood in Egypt and rescued from Pharaoh's power in the Red Sea, they were destroyed in the wilderness because they became wicked idolators beneath Mt Sinai, and God Swore in His Wrath that they would never enter into the land that He had promised to give them

[@f4r6u5180]

So basically as long as you thoroughly oppress people so they will never attain similar positions or wealth. It’s fine to demand the oppressed people forgive while the children of the ones who made racist laws get to keep benefiting while never addressing the problem. Keeping the same outcome of the owned people never being equal while claiming things are better… just so you know just because a rape survivor forgives the rapist doesn’t mean he evaded jail.

[@user-mm8ur9el9n]

Dr. Strachan is a serious and able theologian, so it is fun to see his formidable voice enter the fray even though I think he’s wrong at several points. I commend Dr. Strachan for (seemingly) intentionally not mentioning names of Christians he considers “committed” to “wokeness” (restricting his specifics to Kendi, DiAngelo, etc.). I also commend Dr. Strachan for encouraging lament for clear instances of racism or trauma to black lives. I didn’t see that coming, frankly. As usual, the people with whom I disagree - when I listen to them for more than a sound bite - are not as bad as I expected. BUT … I was surprised to hear him accuse the “woke” side of denying or minimizing common grace. It seems that he minimizes common grace in a different way: not allowing for non-Christian historical, sociological, or legal studies to diagnose anything true about our society. If common grace means anything, it means the God of all truth might allow those folks to notice things for which Christians have robust, redemptive answers. Strachan’s definition of common grace here sounds more like a postmillennial conception of societal progress (i.e., he says denying or minimizing racial progress = denying or minimizing common grace). I’m troubled by Dr. Strachan linking inequalities affecting the African American community to the way sin affects each culture uniquely. By this account, one can see how mass incarceration might be explained in ways that denigrate and generalize … i.e., it’s not systemic injustice, African Americans just happen to struggle with sins that perpetuate inequity and white Americans struggle with sins that perpetuate wealth. Either I’m misunderstanding this point of his, or it’s a thinly veiled, prejudicial way to blame cultures for their woes. Finally, either I misunderstood what he meant by tracking down reasons for reparations through a “Kabuki routine,” or this was a nice little micro-aggression (to use a term I would imagine Strachan rejects).

[@carlosreira413]

Brother, can I get your autograph? Do you write? Can we form a coalition? I have a thousand questions to ask a man like you. WHO are you, and whence cometh such knowledge and wisdom? But if Stachan is the "able theologian" you say, how is it he makes such apparent blunders? A theologian should be a lover of God, as well as His student. I smell the stench of 500 year old Calvinism. any thought on that?

[@timffoster]

Do you deny that certain cultures have particular besetting sins? That would be a bizarre (and unbiblical) notion. Some cultures are cannibalistic. Other cultures are lazy. Some are gluttons. Some are liars. And then there are the Cretans. See what Paul has to say about them in Titus 1. (We'll note for the record that he also says "this testimony is true! Therefore, rebuke them!") So if you want to insist that all societies are morally equal, I think you'll need to take that up with Paul. Or take it up with FBI Uniform Crime Reports. Or take it up with 911 call reports (deficiencies of the criminal justice system may affect incarceration rates, but they have no bearing on 911 call reports. And guess which group of people generate a disproportionate number of 911 calls...)

[@carlosreira413]

@@timffoster Oh man, brother Tim, that's not a great use of God's word. Cultures are corrupt. But we have the benefit today of some insight as to why. HOW corruption works. To say that it is not the Christian's purview to understand these things and work toward justice and redemption of all peoples is not tenable. We MUST be the voice of all truth, justice and power to save. We have the Gospel of life. We control the keys of the kingdom. I'm saddened by your worldly argument. Go live in Baltimore with the poor for a few years and see things from their point of view.

[@user-mm8ur9el9n]

@Carlos Reira Hey brother. I enjoyed your reply to me, to Tim below, and especially your general comment on the video. I think you do a good job considering the common grace evident in various systems of thought that might have something to teach those of us with a biblical worldview (since the biblical worldview is itself flawless, but my apprehension of God’s world through it is flawed … blindspots abound, and like Josiah and Neco, God may see fit to use non-Christians to expose a blindspot). To reference our friend Tim below, if Paul can find a true observation from a non-Christian poet (Titus 1:12), then we should not be surprised if God occasionally allows non-Christian theorists to notice something true about America. I feel like I’m conceding too much to the anti-woke perspective though, because many of those people being lambasted as Marxist, etc., aren’t the secular theorists but fellow Christians seeking to alert the American church to injustices. Inasmuch as love believes the best about others who are in Christ (1 Cor 13:7), I think we should listen to these Christian voices whose orthodoxy are not in doubt. I HOPE Calvinism isn’t the root of Dr. Strachan’s flawed points, because I too am a Calvinist … though this view certainly may have led me into flawed thinking in some areas. I actually think Calvinist doctrines like total depravity might help account for systemic racism and the white evangelical unwillingness to concede its existence. Dr. Strachan is neither the first nor the last able theologian to have what I think are blindspots. I know I have my own. As for your proposal of a coalition, I answer with a hearty AMEN.

[@user-mm8ur9el9n]

@timffoster Thank you for a stimulating and incisive reply, brother. Your point about Titus 1:12 really made me think. I suppose my quibble is not with trying to identify a culture’s besetting sins, but with presuming to diagnose besetting sin as the sole reason for a person or group’s suffering. The book of Job warns against that kind of diagnosis. Again, thank you for bringing an important biblical text to the discussion.

[@chuckporritt6958]

The biblical worldview is that God appoints kings governors and judges to impose His Law upon human society. CRT is a fundamental denial of that truth. America has never been ‘systemically’ racist. 70 years after the ratification of the Constitution the nation was led by a President named Lincoln to battle over the issue of slavery. Later political battles were fought over the rights of women. And beyond that further political battles were fought for the full honoring of the place of black people in American society. This is the context within which all societies should be measured. To what extent is God’s hand evident in the pursuit of justice and righteousness? In this nation that has now ‘systemically’ killed 60 million unborn children, the question is ‘Does CRT theory represent America reaping what it has sown?’ Because we have traded a vertical relationship with God for a horizontal relationship between different racial groups, have we not in fact plunged ourselves into this darkness? It seems to me that the danger is to be prompted by CRT to take a position along racial lines. It’s never been about that. It has always been about whether or not lawlessness will abound and the love of many will grow cold. In 2008 we elected a black president for the first of two terms. Many who think ‘horizontally’ wanted to believe that this marked the end of racial injustice in our nation. In fact what we are finding is a new type of racism. It is only as we understand that God himself is impartial, and that we are all equally accountable to Him, that any society can be stable and can truly prosper. America is a nation that has forgotten God, and so I fear that God has abandoned us to the logical consequences. Christians must resist the temptation to stand up for their ‘race’, whatever race that may be.

[@majose7787]

To deny that America has ever been systemically racist is one of the most ridiculous and ahistorical statements I've ever heard. Even if you deny is it now, its sheer blindness to deny that it hasn't been in the past. Slavery, Jim Crow, the lynching, segregation, redlining but to name a few. This comment is breathtaking in its ignorance.

[@majose7787]

Even the abortion issue you speak of has racist implications since the PP founder Margaret Sanger wanted to use abortion to annihilate the black race!

[@chuckporritt6958]

@@majose7787 In Acts 17:26 the apostle Paul said that God has made all of the nations or races of mankind from ‘one blood’. That is why I can donate a blood transfusion or an organ transplant to peoples from throughout the world; of all races. Because underneath our superficial racial differences we are all ‘one’. It has been this principle, with reference to a sovereign Creator to whom all of us will someday have to give an account, that racial justice has been pursued in this country under our Constitution. You may like the American Constitutional document and it’s system of ‘fair play’, or you may not. But this is the religious context in which this nation arose, and in which it has defined and pursued justice for two centuries. It’s moral reference point has been a VERTICAL relationship with a righteous and truthful Judge. The problem with CRT is not that it is racist (which it is, condemning ALL white people). And the problem with CRT is not that it’s claims that America has always been SYSTEMICALLY racist are false; which they are. The problem with CRT is that it has abandoned VERTICAL accountability.

[@majose7787]

@@chuckporritt6958 I don't think anyone is denying sameness of humanity. That's not what's in discussion here. Its the existence of racist systems. And your argument that America has NEVER been systemically racist has been proven wrong from history-even if you don't think America still is..... The sad thing is that despite these superficial racial differences, some people still think they're superior to others based on this criteria.

[@majose7787]

@@chuckporritt6958 furthermore, it was America's inconsistent application of your constitution and its failure to obey biblical norms of treating ALL humans with dignity based on the Imago Dei which led to the abolitionist and Civil Rights movements in the first place!!!

[@majose7787]

"Wokeness" just feels like a word used to disparage people who care about the reality of racism. Lazy stereotyping, uncharitable and unchristlike

[@thesacredlifeofrain]

@51:08 Your guest gives his version of the gospel: "Out of love for fellow image bearers who are going to hell unless they repent of their sin for all eternity..." Nothing about the blood of Jesus, the cross, the resurrection, and trusting what Jesus did for us, so this is concerning. John 3:16, 1 Cor. 15:1-4, and other salvation verses do not say this is how to go to heaven. Sean, is this your position also, that to go to heaven one must repent of their sin? Would you please clarify if yes, you believe this, or do you disagree with your guest's representation of the gospel?

[@Luke_Radiosmash]

Along with Strachan's definition of wokeness regarding racism, I would say more generally: wokeness prioritizes poetic truth over actual truth. So you take on the Correct Opinions, the Sophisticated Viewpoints and you scoff at those who bring up conflicting data. It's a whole new level of arrogance where, rather than taking pride in being knowledgeable on a topic, you are *above* knowledge and facts. It's more like you "believe in the right god" rather than simply having an intelligent, informed opinion that can grapple with other opinions.

[@benjiradach347]

"Some of my friends who are minorities...". Seems like a loud minority. Many other minorities (this writer included) won't agree with your minority friends, Dr. McDowell. "Truth isn't racialized." Spot on, Dr. Strachan. Truth is truth--minority (or majority) opinion notwithstanding.

[@PeterFortuna]

truth seekers should represent the topics correctly and not straw man concepts and ideas Of others.

[@PeterFortuna]

I think doctor Owen is experiencing the problem of "because it's not a problem for him it's not a problem for anyone" Perspective issue.

[@helenal.7881]

@@PeterFortuna China and Russia are whipping our a$$ in every dimension but lets obsess ourselves with “being nice to each other”! Said NO SANE person. Christian or otherwise.

[@wemf2]

Is wokeness an American only phenomenon?

[@Nyny.1000]

This is one that I truly did not enjoy. I did not feel that the issue was addressed. More discussion against so called woke rather than what is the gospel. Asking white Christians to repent isn't right, but that does not mean that systemic racism (aka the way system works creates a disparity that effects a specific demographic who share the same racial background) doesn't exist. The facts are there. Understanding that facts of systemic racism doesn't make you woke. Being a white parent having adopted (or even biologically related) children doesn't prevent you from also being racist. When did systemic racism end? The pain and suffering still exists as a result of the things you do accept were systemic racism. I don't think people should repent but people should look to right wrongs they see before them, and to amend things where they have undue favouritism at the expense and detriment of others. As a Christian, accepting that systemic racism exists doesn't mean you are participating in the ranking suffering. Also some people do suffer more than others for many reasons, ignoring them doesn't help the gospel and isn't asked by the gospel. How can you have the good Samaritan if there is no one who suffered who needed help? Did the Samaritan say that they had experienced suffering so shouldn't have to help someone else who was in immediate pain? No.

[@cccc13.]

We should eat the rich lol just messing.

[@jbeiler55]

Hey, it's like us ex-christians hear all the time. - I'm sorry that that bully woke-church hurt you or your friends. That's not the true heart of Woke-Jesus. You can't judge all of Woke-Christianity and Woke-Jesus on the actions of a few.

[@carlosreira413]

Touché brother Jeff. I need more. What is your position? On Christianity in general. And on the social justice movement. I hear your cynicism and I'm sympathetic. (I think.)

[@jbeiler55]

Hey @@carlosreira413. Appreciate the response and your being open to hearing more I don't believe in the spiritual anymore. Grew up conservative/fundamentalist and lost faith at 31 years old. Still married to my christian wife and we have 4 kids. My wife and I align on our views of the importance of social justice and there currently being inequality. I don't know how to go into racial issues in a meaningful way in a comment section. I would just say I lean heavily towards empathy for all people so something like slavery and the various ways that people have been oppressed or taken advantage of weigh heavy on how I see things. I don't agree with equality of outcome if that is actually what people are proposing. I would stand strongly behind equal opportunity for education (equally funded primary and free state college option) and universal health care. For my original comment it jumped out at me when Owen shared about the instance of the woke church being harmful to his friend (or friend's child, I don't remember now) as being what prompted him to action. It feels so similar to the common trope ex-christians hear of "you just had a bad experience of church or the people. That's not what TRUE christianity/God/Jesus is about" I feel the same could be said of any movement. The true woke church doesn't want to condemn or shame people for past generations actions, just recognize that people have been oppressed and seek justice/equality for all. That's just my 2 cents. Hope to your hear your thoughts.

[@carlosreira413]

@@jbeiler55 Ok, thanks brother Jeff, that's what I believe as well. But now this trope as you call it, isn't this just the true Scotsman fallacy--No true Christian would do X and since X was done, it wasn't done by a Christian, something like that? But I can appreciate the sentiment that much which IS and HAS BEEN done in the name of Christ is patently contradictory to the teachings of the New Testament. I'm glad to know that you hold to these values, and I think that's what God wants us to do in light of the recent revelations of systemic injustice. It was always there, but now in the Information Age it's high time to make a full confession. If I could offer one recommendation, it would be to read Tom Holland's new book (pretty new, his newest), "Dominion" in which he argues that secularism is somehow Christian, at least in terms of worldview and values, such as human rights. I think that's his thesis. He rambles a bit. Here's a good interview, the first time I had ever heard of him: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nJLZen-jitiJmsk But, of course, we are all fascinated by these de-conversions going on. I'm not no sure they ARE that, maybe they are true conversions to something more authentic, I don't know. I judge nothing before its time. But on behalf of all "true Christians," or rather on behalf of the not so true ones, I extend my sincere apologies. The state of affairs bothers me very much. If you watch the Tom Holland interview, I would like to know what you think. And if it's ok, I will pray for you for IDK a more workable faith?

[@jbeiler55]

​@@carlosreira413Yeah, I think so. Just made me chuckle because a lot of christians seem to think that us ex's left because we were hurt or didn't experience the "right" christianity. Appreciate your attitude and glad to know we are on the same page in a lot of ways. What do you make of the "woke" church and this video? Did you grow up in the church? I'll check out the Tom Holland interview and try to get back to you. You're free to pray if you want to. I don't think that I can go back to believing in a God like the Bible portrays short of tangible miracles but I try to be open to being wrong. I think we humans are terrible at being objective in our reasoning so take that for what it's worth.

[@carlosreira413]

@@jbeiler55 Ok, well I'm preaching the "Evangelion" of Tom Holland to anyone who will listen anyway. I love what he has to say. I think it's the piece I was personally missing. I think that if we spread the umbrella of Christianity wide enough from the beginning there's no leaving. It's rather like a tent. A big top circus, with a main event and a bunch of side shows. If I had it my way, it would be impossible to leave, because the tent would cover the whole world, the whole universe. While I think that's more like the vision we're supposed to have, I don't have it my way. But please, if you don't mind, what did you leave behind exactly, and what have you picked up, in terms of values and beliefs? Because really we are all on this same journey in which we are allowed limited provisions and can't carry everything. If I have contradicted myself in metaphors, so be it. That's life.

[@FdoSanchez]

If someone with a Doctorate, with all his studies and preparation still denies the existence of "systemic racism" in the US, something is really wrong about the education system. He should ask for some of his money back. Systemic Racism is everywhere, jobs, banks, housing, schools, police, policies, and sadly even at some churches. Denying this just show his privileged life or worse yet, he is just playing his part on prolongating it and not really wanting to be witness for Christ.

[@troyte831]

Saying there is “systemic racism” everywhere doesn’t actually mean there is. Can you bring up specific examples of how any of those functions of society are systemically racist?

[@vanessaingersoll7140]

@@troyte831 excited for his response to your question lol

[@FdoSanchez]

@@troyte831 There's plenty of information out there, but I'd recommend some documentaries about school districts and housing developments in the 60's. You can see how the system created the segregation on cities, starting with neighborhoods around Downtown areas. Why you think most neighborhoods in every major city in the US close to the Downtowns are "bad" and are minorities who live there and all the Suburbs are "safe" and mostly "white"? You think "just happened randomly"...there's an explanation for it. Look for the history about how the Banks worked and still some do regarding the approval of loans and mortgages. All that, affected the School system too. "Bad" neighborhood = "bad" schools, "bad" schools="bad" teachers. "bad" teachers="bad" students, "bad" students=less opportunities=poverty=crime, etc etc etc. It's too long to cover here. But "seek & you'll find".

[@troyte831]

@@FdoSanchez so you didn’t give any specific examples instead broadly asserted these systems are racist due to the inherent segregation of schools, cities, and neighborhoods. I’m sorry but this doesn’t show systemic racism, it only shows that a certain demographic of people usually live and operate in certain areas based on a variety of factors such as income, job placement, and social structures. Race has very little to do with this other than the causality of sects of people likely staying together based on their ethnicity. It’s pretty obvious that people of lower class systems are generally grouped together and all face the same obstacles and lack of opportunities irregardless of their race or ethnicity. So your point doesn’t demonstrate systemic racism, I grew up in a lower class neighborhood and attended a school that was largely made up of kids from lower class areas. Like any societal structure, the schools success was largely determined by the people put in place to facilitate and meet the needs of a particular class or group. In many cases, being a white male did not inherently benefit me because of the overwhelming attention that systems placed on minority advancement and growth. Again, if you want to demonstrate that systemic racism is “everywhere” you will need to provide me with case studies that demonstrate how systems are demonstrably oppressive towards one group or another, otherwise you’re making general assertions that don’t hold any weight. You made the claim, it’s on you to validate that claim with evidence of it’s truthfulness.

[@annlowry9841]

@@troyte831 the way public schools are funded is an example of how systemic racism exists at this present time.

[@richhazeltine1413]

This is not a question so never mind the free book 😉😉. This interview was disturbing for me. I don't see how the participants could watch themselves and not be embarrassed. So many platitudes and not one new or inspired idea. I propose that your idea of apologetics is a bad foundation and any idea built on that will crumble. The statement in 1 Peter 3 meant something totally different to those who heard it in the first or second century. " be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you...about the HOPE that you have". They did not hope for the rapture or escape from Hell (both of which were invented after their time). Their hope was for the return of Jesus and the establishment of his kingdom on earth and the promise of God's will being done on earth as it is in heaven...a the kingdom described by the prophets where there is no more war, no more division, no more injustice; where everyone is perceived as a neighbor and loved as such. Modern believers seem to have to invent enemies of their gospel to reinforce their belief that they and only they have the truth. The gospel is no more capitalist than Marxist nor Republican, Democratic or Communist. You can have any discussion you like, but I suggest you don't confuse that with apologetics. Jesus's words about those who have ears to hear let them hear, comes to mind.My opinion of course and no disrespect intended.

[@daysofnoah]

More complete garbage from Sean McDowell.

[@tell-me-a-story-]

I think it he was quite clever. What makes you feel like it is garbage?

[@rickmathews4101]

Nike went woke! Just saying