Secrets of the Batman Returns Scripts - Screenwriter DANIEL WATERS Interview

Batman Returns screenwriter Daniel Waters joins us for a candid talk on his earlier versions of the script and the unmade Catwoman spin-off! Learn more about what things he wished remained in the final film, what things he hates about the movie that weren’t in his drafts, the deleted roles of Robin and Harvey Dent, the real origins of Max Shreck, and who he envisioned joining Michelle Pfeiffer in her Catwoman spin-off.
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Chapters
0:00 Daniel Waters Introduction
0:13 Episode Introduction
8:09 Meeting Tim Burton & Daniel Waters's Beetlejuice 2 Pitch
11:10 The Comic Book Influence on Batman Returns
28:13 Scenes That He Wished Were in the Movie
32:45 The Deleted Role for Robin
36:18 Was Max Shreck Based on Anyone in Real Life?
40:40 Max Shreck Was Never Harvey Dent & Dent's Real Role
42:17 The Deleted Alexander Knox Death
48:17 What Was Deleted From The Wesley Strick Rewrites
57:58 Break
1:02:38 Visual Versions of Daniel Waters's Cut Ideas
1:06:20 Batman's Deleted Arc in the Film
1:09:27 The Deleted World's Fair Hideout & the Bat Creeps
1:11:06 The Obscure Robin Storyboard & Vehicle Concept Art
1:15:38 Daniel Waters on The Batman & Detective Work
1:17:36 The Catwoman Spin-Off & Who Could've Joined Pfeiffer in the Cast
1:25:27 The Catwoman Spin-Off Foreshadowing The Boys
1:27:33 Introducing The Batman 89 Comic to Daniel Waters
1:30:50 MISC Section: Daniel Waters & Other Superhero Movies?
1:35:13 The Demolition Man Sequel??
1:39:58 Final Wrap-Up: Ben's Thank You to Daniel Waters
1:42:17 Fan Comments
1:44:41 Closing: Fan Shout outs and Social Media Promotion
Big thanks to our research assistant Dan Yamat for providing the visuals for this KZbin experience, as well as the usual QC and chapter time codes.
Thumbnail by Dan as well
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[@SuperHousePodcast]

Get 20% OFF @manscaped + Free Shipping with promo code JOHNSONSBALLSACK at MANSCAPED.com! #ad #sponsored Show Notes (going live after the premiere): www.superherostuffpod.com/post/secrets-of-the-batman-returns-scripts-screenwriter-daniel-waters-interview

[@sparkageddon3186]

Now we need Sam Hamm on the show

[@dispassionateobserver]

I cannot articulate how cool it is to get an hour and forty-five minutes of Daniel Waters talking about Batman Returns. In years past I would have thought such a thing was impossible, but here it is. A sincere thank you to all of you guys. I love this movie so much.

[@Dohsoda]

Batman Returns has really gotten better with time. It may be a cult movie now, but its impact has lasted for 30 years and is not forgotten.

[@LoganWood121]

15 minutes in and I'm already thoroughly entertained. This is a huge treat.

[@scottharwood9918]

I think batman 89 and batman returns are the best batman films

[@JohnDoe-tm9wz]

Yes and we need more movies set in that world.

[@evanzaremba4722]

To you? Yes. But to me? No. Because I love Batman 89, because it's my all-time favorite, and my second favorite was Batman Forever, because they follow the original Bob Kane comic books.

[@evanzaremba4722]

@@JohnDoe-tm9wz just two, because Tim Burton wanted Returns to be not like the first, and WB made a mistake for giving him full creative control for the film.

[@SuperBrooklynite007]

100%

[@kingdjack6]

​@@evanzaremba4722yup exactly.

[@braxtonwages195]

I felt the same way about Batman Returns. That ending is pure poetry.

[@thefonzkiss]

Penguin running for mayor was in the 66 series - based on an earlier comic book story. There were about half a dozen story ideas taken from the comics in the series.

[@TheArticulatingAnoraksPodcast]

Damn you guys just keep coming out with these excellent podcasts. It’s criminal that you guys don’t have more subscribers

[@SuperHousePodcast]

Thanks for this comment! We replied in our latest episode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/b5Csfn9_ds2MrpI

[@MrGlasspider]

Damn, Waters wrote Demolition Man too? This man is a legend!

[@MrGlasspider]

"When you're wearing the suit, shut up" =D That one is soooo true!

[@krypton7853]

I love Daniel Waters work,he seems so funny. His interpretation of the villains was the way to go.

[@shamrockballs1066]

Brilliant episode guys. I remember reading one of the movies that inspired Daniel Waters to get onto movies was Jaws. I feel Batman Returns has some Empire Strikes Back vibes, with the film ending on a somber note and being arguably darker than the first. I always knew Tim Burton wasnt too fond of the original Batman and he says in The Cat, The Bat and The Penguin that it wasnt a sequel persay, it didnt pick up from where the original left off it was more a case of another 'episode', but by the sounds of it he really wanted to get away from 89 almost completely, which I don't understand as Batman was a huge success. I've always loved returns, though part of me wished they'd stayed in the same vain as 89 however over time I've came to appreciate more the direction they took it and I think its held up really well.

[@evanzaremba4722]

He found it boring. But I found the first Batman awesome. Batman 89 and Batman Forever are my all-time favorites. Burton never like both films, but he did great with both films, with Sam Hamm and Warren Skkareen, and with his friend Joel Schumacher, Lee and Janet Scott Batchler, and Akiva Goldsman.

[@shamrockballs1066]

@@evanzaremba4722 I can see how the look and feel of Returns really suited that movie. But I just find everything else about the original more compelling - the sets, the costumes, the mood, I even prefer the originals score, I find it more impactful where as Returns score feels more watered down then expanded with your typical Danny Elfman fairy tale sounds, like Edward Scissorhands. His Catwoman theme is probably my favourite theme he done in the sequel and reminds me of Bernard Herman. That's not me knocking returns by the way, I love it, I just don't see why Burton disliked the original that much. I think it comes down to taste. They didn't dare change the batmobile because they knew it was iconic. I think the Batsuit for the sequel was definitely improved upon and looks really good and sleek but it loses a bit of the animalistic qualities of the original. I think what I'm getting at is if the sequel used the same sets, feel and look of the original no one would have complained. I guess it was brave to go a completely different look to suit Burtons ideas for the sequel and I suppose it makes Returns a real original piece in of itself. In any case I love both, but I'm never bored of the original.

[@evanzaremba4722]

@@shamrockballs1066 that's why Burton wanted Batman Returns to be a completely different movie.

[@rachorachev8905]

"Your just jealous, because I'm a genuine freak and you have to wear a mask!" "You might be right..."

[@HipsterBlood]

This is the type of stuff that should be included as part of the Special Features on the Blu-ray release! Well done, guys!

[@ZyxthePest]

The Demolition Man 2 teaser had me rolling ahahaha.

[@jacksonwayneputnam1599]

Great interview, guys. Waters is very smart and funny, really enjoy his perspective on things. "Who knew 'unlimited poontang' had such a cult following?"

[@LoganWood121]

WHAT ARE YEH? SOME KINDA STRICT FAN?

[@DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader]

I treasure Returns, already loved Daniel Waters but this and especially the bit about Rod Lurie (not to mention the terrible Straw Dogs remake) further sealed the deal. The irony is I like Hamm’s script too and am a lifelong Hardy Boys nerd. These interviews you guys have been doing are phenomenal for those of us obsessed with the production history of the Batfilms. I don’t know of anyone else that has gone as deeply into who wrote what and highlighting the Strick material injected into Waters’s earlier drafts. As someone who tries to read as many drafts as possible hearing people go in depth on the story development is so rewarding. Keep the Bat-CD scratching!

[@SuperHousePodcast]

Thanks for this. We replied to this comment in our latest episode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l6itaXmYhZl-h6c

[@braxtonwages195]

Waters is so damn funny! This was the best interview you guys! Thanks👍🏻

[@KyloRen0127]

This interview was amazing! Daniel Waters is one funny and cool guy! Can't wait for the Sam Hamm interview!

[@chriswilliams384]

Great show. Love Daniel Waters, love his dry sense of humour. Such a funny smart guy. Brilliant!

[@primitifsound]

this was a amazing interview, I wish Daniel was more involved in the movies nowadays, such a creative mind

[@benjaminmorsecomicbookarti3793]

This was so awesome- incredible amount of stuff that was 1. Cut scenes I never knew abt and 2. amazing insights on how the script did (and I suppose, didn',t in the end) come together!!!!

[@dreamlandnightmare]

23:26 - That is so frighteningly true.

[@ebisuno92]

Extremely insightful and entertaining interview! Makes me wanna rewatch Batman Returns right now. The ending note from Ben made me tear up. Big thanks to Daniel Waters for doing that. I'm so happy to see your podcast growing guys!

[@CatLives9]

Daniel Waters understood the dynamics and sexual tension between Batman/Bruce and Catwoman/Selina a hell of a lot more than Nolan and Goyer ever did with TDKRises.

[@nope5657]

Batman has always carried an innate sense of kink and horniness. Burton and Schumacher knew this. Even Reeves picked up on it a bit, not much, but a bit. Nolan's films are about as horny and an impotent mummy.

[@JaredPresleyExperience]

July 25 is my birthday, so this feels like I'm getting a present! Looking forward to the episode!

[@edlewisnoctreviews]

Great episode and very insightful. Some of his original ideas, the Christmas tree in Gotham Square lighting up after the kiss at the end does make it into the novelization as well as some of the one-liners.

[@Stanwood32]

“I’m a crazy person..I like my things” may be the best thing I’ve heard. Still laughing. Great podcast!!

[@walter_the_wobot2349]

I’m ready!

[@NateIsCorrupt]

This is a great podcast, love hearing from people like this.

[@drl251]

Great interview guys. So entertaining. Daniels hilarious.

[@kappadonger3014]

Thank you for shining light on this masterpiece. It's one of my favorite movies of all time and still my favorite batman right by the dark knight

[@steve19811]

WATERS is super talented.... I'd love to see more films written by him.. Thank You....

[@leandernicholson9225]

Here for it!

[@evanzaremba4722]

Waters was an amazing writers. Thanks guys for the post.

[@joereaper]

Fantastic episode guys, great stories from Mr. Waters and I laughed so much with his sense of humor. Specially when Ben was reading some of his lines that got cut from his draft and he let out 'F... you Strick'. As someone who also writes my own scripts, I love to listen screenwriter's stories about their works, specially if is Batman. By the way, loved the section about the Catwoman spin off, which I also read on the internet few years ago and wanted to know more about it from the guy himself. Just to wrap up, I'm a big fan of the podcast from Brazil, my name is actually Gus. My channel's name means 'Light, Camera and draw' in English so a shout out from a Brazilian fan, keep up the good work guys.

[@steve19811]

Best Catwoman - Best fights with Catwoman. Best Corrupt Mayor. Best One Liners. Best Romance.. I mean.. this whole movie is amazing

[@patrickrogers2304]

This is a gem!

[@XueEntertainment]

This’s got to be my favourite episode so far.

[@chrisjansen9846]

Loved this chat, but damn Daniel had a few drinks huh?

[@MrGlasspider]

Yes! Now I know all about those seashells!

[@cyberpunkholiday]

Glad Daniel Waters is a cool dude! Great episode.

[@DEEAD666]

Returns is my fave out of the “first” four.

[@NEUVERSECREATIVE]

SO COOL!!!

[@Terminatorfan-2016]

I downloaded the script and it is pretty awesome. It's a keeper. Definitely has a lot of different cool stuff. It even has the Marlon Wayans pre Robin character. The mechanic with the suit with the R. The kid. It would have been a cool action scene if they had it in the movie. But they kind of replicated it in the new Batman 89 comic issue 5. Which in my opinion is a fantastic story.

[@GregOrCreg]

Even though Daniel Waters has consistently and definitively pointed out that Max Shreck was *NEVER* Harvey Dent (something this site and I have known for a long while), I guarantee that some other podcasts and commentaries, not to mention tonnes of social media posts, will still continue to state with apparent authority that 'the Shreck role was originally intended to be Harvey Dent'. 🤦‍♂

[@j-555]

I know this is an old video but if you guys ever see this hit me with your response. In your time talking to Waters, did the overlap between batman returns and dark knight rises ever come up? I have noticed a few over time: both movies have a bat symbol in ice or snow, a subplot about the city's power, catwoman's inclusion, a scene where selina and bruce dance at a ball, an unscrupulous industrialist whom bruce interacts with (schreck/daggett), enemies coming from underground, etc. I would be surprised if those similarities were unintentional! I almost feel like they pay tribute to 'returns'.

[@matthewaronoff7539]

I agree I like both of them

[@rosemaryfarell5264]

Always loved Returns.

[@j.j.q1379]

Hey say what you may I loved Batman and Batman returns ❤

[@SeasideDetective2]

I've read the shooting script for BATMAN RETURNS, and I really like it. The humor is even darker than what we got, and the dialogue is wittier, with some of the lines evoking Shakespearean comedy. I understand that the studio had to cut out a lot of it in order to manage the running time and make the story less "talky" and more of a solid action movie. Still, I can't help wondering if BATMAN RETURNS didn't suffer for many of those lines being cut. Quite a few action sequences also either got cut down or were never filmed. It's too bad we never saw, for example, the Batmobile firing a Batarang to knock out the circus strongman when he was threatening Alfred and a little girl, or the circus gang's Indian squaw (Erika Andersch from "American Gladiators") throwing a knife into the Bat-symbol on Batman's chest. Also, a few minor characters, such as Chip Shreck and the Poodle Lady, were supposed to get more lines.

[@ender7278]

I don't wanna sit through this whole video again just for this so can someone give me the timestamp of when he talks about the song he listened to on repeat while writing the film? I'd like to give it a listen.

[@dreamlandnightmare]

I'd like to know who wrote the line: "Eat floor. High fiber."

[@yeahiprotest]

How did you land this interview?

[@nope5657]

We'll never get a studio production of a superhero film like this ever again. Now it's all about fan service and making sure the studio doesn't step on fans toes.

[@GregOrCreg]

Really looking forward to this. I don't know if it comes up, but one thing I really miss, that was actually in both the Waters and Strick screenplays, is where The Ice Princess pushes an old lady down whilst running away from The Red Triangle Circus Gang. I also found the deleted stuff with Chip Shreck interesting. In Waters' earlier draft I believe he's simply an executive rather than Max's son (it's implied Max is a contemporary of Bruce rather than a decade or so older), and Catwoman kills him in a quicksand pit. And in Strick's draft, whilst he doesn't die, he is trapped by Catwoman in her Murphy Bed, after he tries to spy on her, on his father's behalf. I don't know if you cover any of this stuff in the podcast, but this stuff always intrigued me.

[@evanzaremba4722]

Yes. I read that scene last year.

[@I_am_Dane_Youssef]

I am such a fan of his, and what he's done. It's criminal he hasn't had more success. The only bad film he was really involved with was HUDSON HAWK. He "won" the Golden Raspberry for that one--and FORD FAIRLANE. I liked FAIRLANE. His stuff is so good. You guys--check out his HAPPY CAMPERS and SEX AND DEATH 101. Keep this guy successful. Make him more so.

[@kamdan2011]

1:42:54 Prop Store has pictures of the shirt online and there’s a button of the design as well. It’s honestly not that great and makes an error of stating “tricentennial” instead of “bicentennial.”

[@SuperHousePodcast]

Thanks for this comment! We replied in our latest episode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/b5Csfn9_ds2MrpI

[@phantomfire8228]

18:51

[@ProdigalJames]

Lifelong fan of Batman Returns. Also adore B89, but could never watch it without a small tinge of sadness after I'd read Sam Hamm's first draft from October '86. That was incredible and far superior to the final draft. Burton definitely redeemed himself with the sequel though. Hamm's (thankfully unproduced) first draft was woeful (though it did have some outstanding action scenes) and Catwoman was nothing but an outright evil Xenia Onatopp prototype. I have no idea why Hamm wrote her in such a terrible way, it made no sense considering he was familiar with the Batman mythos. It would have been fun to have seen the following in the final version of Returns though... 1. The Batmobile firing a jet of fire and melting a six foot high wall of snow on the road (from the Sam Hamm draft). 2. The Bruce-Selina park scene from Waters' first draft.

[@TheCryptoKeeper]

I thought Catwoman was stealing stuff when the two guards tried to stop her.

[@walter_the_wobot2349]

Was she? I thought she was sabotaging the gas line.

[@TheCryptoKeeper]

@@walter_the_wobot2349 I just watched it a couple days ago and I thought she was breaking all the glass counters with her whip first to steal stuff. Idk. Then she sabotaged after. Idk.

[@walter_the_wobot2349]

@@TheCryptoKeeper I assumed she was just acting out, venting her frustration. She didn’t have a swag bag so how would she have carried off her loot?

[@paulblodgett4072]

🦇🐈🐧🙌

[@JohnDoe-tm9wz]

Now we need ❓🎃🎩

[@G.O.D-F.O.X]

Danny Devito was also in one flew over the coo coo's nest.

[@evanzaremba4722]

Yes. Brad Douirf was in it, not only he did Cukoo's nest with Jack Nicholson and Danny DeVito, but also Eyes of Laura Mars with Tommy Lee Jones.

[@GregOrCreg]

@@evanzaremba4722 Christopher Lloyd and Brad Dourif, both of whom were in Cuckoo's Nest with Jack Nicholson and Danny DeVito, would have made great Batman movie villains. I could see Lloyd as Mr Freeze or The Scarecrow, and maybe Dourif as either The Scarecrow or Victor Zsasz.

[@evanzaremba4722]

@@GregOrCreg what about Nicolas Cage as The Scarecrow? Schumacher visit Cage on the set of Face-Off and Cage would be a great Scarecrow.

[@johnwells5414]

I could see Christopher Lloyd playing Mad Hatter.

[@evanzaremba4722]

@@johnwells5414 that's good. Also Kiefer Sutherland as Deadshot, Robert De Niro as Black Mask, Bill Murray as the comedic Calendar Man, and Dan Aykroyd as Killer Moth.

[@phantomfire8228]

33:00

[@rosemaryfarell5264]

Brilliant watch. Waters is hilarious. Im not a fan of 89 either.

[@phantomfire8228]

20:00

[@phantomfire8228]

26:06

[@phantomfire8228]

22:22

[@enminghee2926]

A superhero movie for people who hate superheroes.

[@GregOrCreg]

It's true that there's no real diversity in the film, which is why it's a big shame that we never got Marlon Wayans as Robin, even for just a short cameo, or an appearance from Harvey Dent, but apart from one Black reporter, a Native American clown (Branscombe Richmond) and a mixed-race/Native American mugger (Henry Kingi), I wonder which of the characters that made the final script could have been Black, seeing as, Selina, Alfred and Bruce apart, most of the characters are complete assholes (and the film is every bit as much a parody of white society as Waters' Heathers). I think you'd have to add extra characters rather than recast the existing roles (Selina would have worked well with a Black actor, say Jennifer Beals or Halle Berry, for instance, but that would then mean we wouldn't have had the brilliant Michelle Pfeiffer in this part).

[@evanzaremba4722]

We do have Chris O'Donnell as Robin in the second, but last two Batman movies. And we finally had a black Robin in the Batman 89 comic.

[@thefonzkiss]

Back then they didn’t feel the need to shoehorn people in just because of their race. People were cast based on their talent not on their skin color.

[@GregOrCreg]

@@thefonzkiss I love this film unequivocally, but I do find it curious that a supposedly East Coast metropolis that is permanently dark and dingy seems to be filled almost exclusively with Californian-looking tanned blond(e) blue-eyed white people. On one hand, I think that's partly the satirical point Burton is making here, but I wish he'd have made it more explicit, which is something he could have done by contrasting the general population with a few people of colour.

[@dogisadancer6039]

⭐⭐⭐these guys are super talented but when You hear them cuss and swear it downgrades there tallent and shows they do not yet have JESUS CHRIST as their lord and saviour!!! Once they come into alignment with JESUS the stars are the limit for these guys and even better BATMAN FILMS to come !!!!!!!⭐⭐⭐⭐ Yes that possible GOD has all the best scripts reserved!!!!!!

[@phantomfire8228]

21:12

[@dogisadancer6039]

⭐⭐⭐these guys are super talented but when You hear them cuss and swear it downgrades there tallent and shows they do not yet have JESUS CHRIST as their lord and saviour!!! Once they come into alignment with JESUS the stars are the limit for these guys and even better BATMAN FILMS to come !!!!!!!⭐⭐⭐⭐ Yes that possible GOD has all the best scripts reserved!!!!!!

[@thefonzkiss]

Aspergers