EXCLUSIVE: The 1996 Batman & Robin First Draft (Was It Worse??)

[@SuperHousePodcast]

Show Notes: www.superherostuffpod.com/post/exclusive-the-1996-batman-robin-first-draft-was-it-worse

[@evanzaremba4722]

I read that draft.

[@alexlemonds2838]

@@evanzaremba4722 Care to share a link? I'd love to read it myself.

[@evanzaremba4722]

@@alexlemonds2838 me too.

[@Weezing336]

Batman & Robin is my third favorite Batman film behind Forever and Mask of the Phantasm.

[@evanzaremba4722]

My favorite too.

[@mattmc5069]

As a kid i followed knightfall in the comics and i was really disappointed most of all at how they showed Bane. They made him a mindless brute, in reality he was a genuis. His freeing the inmates in the comics forced Batman to exhust himself and put Bruce Wayne in a wheelchair for 1 year. Who else put Batman on his back and threw him off a roof? Not even Joker can say that. Joker even calls bane "the prima donna" in one issue shortly after that defeat in an almost respectful way. And this is Joker we are talking about.

[@evanzaremba4722]

I got Knightfall and I'll be reading it one day.

[@willpow05]

To make it worse This is the first adaptation of the character onto the big screen

[@evanzaremba4722]

@@willpow05 to you? Yes. But to me? No.

[@TheToyZone00]

I have watched Batman And Robin multiple times. I can’t say the same for the Dark Knight.

[@evanzaremba4722]

Me too. As much as I watched all four of them multiple times.

[@Ultriac301]

Same here.

[@Weezing336]

by the way, I never thought Poison Ivy had actually fallen for Mr. Freeze as I believe you guys suggested. I think Ivy was just trying to seduce Freeze so that she could have power over him. She was using Freeze the whole time to get what she wanted, which included overtaking him once he froze Gotham.

[@Filmsource]

100% agree

[@mattpalmer1140]

While Batman Returns is my favorite 90s Batman live action movies, Batman & Robin is probably my most watched movie of the four. Its just a fun movie to watch and as a fan of the 66 show, Batman & Robin is like the spiritual successor with a larger budget

[@brandonspain12345]

GREAT SCOTT, BATMAN!!!! This is gonna be nuts.

[@evanzaremba4722]

It's gone nuts alright.

[@ZakynthosDiamandis]

Superhouse podcast team - thank you. Absolutely love your content and I have learnt so much. Fortunately enough, I discovered your channel when I was sick and house bound for 11 days last December. You guys kept me thoroughly edutained whilst I recovered. I have since revisited many of your episodes - the original Batman & Robin deep dive even had me in stiches the second time round! The Burton films have always been very close to my heart, I recently rewatched them and noticed two things I hadn't before that I wanted to share. 1) At the end of the scene when Alfred leads Vicky into the Batcave and Bruce has "got to go to work", Keaton does the 'Bat-turn' when exiting the frame signifying he's already shifted gears before putting on the suit. 2) Using facial expressions alone, how effective Keaton conveys his hatred for The Joker after realising he murdered his parents. Batman scowls at other henchman and villains in both films but the looks Keaton reserves for Nicholson are different. I hope you guys do an episode for the Batman: Year One animated movie. Perhaps not as significant as Under the Red Hood but a brilliant story with tremendous voice acting once again. Or a deep dive into the story of the Arkham Origins game. I feel these two are close in tone to Reeve's The Batman. I would also like to know your thoughts on the upcoming Flash film. Initially I was excited about seeing the return of Keaton as Batman but now I'm a little worried. I also have a theory Ezra Miller is the Flash for real and has travelled back in time to stop the movie from being released. 😉 All the best to the team and keep the hits coming 🙏

[@evanzaremba4722]

Hamm hated the idea of Vicki seeing Bruce in the Batcave. That's all Warren Skkareen. Hamm didn't put that scene in the script, due to the writers guild.

[@johnwells5414]

Oh geez lol, Jason Woodrue is played by John Glover. Riddler and Mr. Lionel Luthor himself!

[@BraxtonWages]

Since you said that Batgirl has a British accent in this script, the only actress at the time who was age appropriate and rising star power would have been Gwyneth Paltrow.

[@JaredPresleyExperience]

Awesome! Was very much looking forward to this podcast. Always wondered about the first draft. I still believe that the rushed production, among other issues, doomed the project from the start.

[@evanzaremba4722]

WB had their mistakes. Don't get me wrong, I like B&R.

[@TheToyZone00]

After watching this the whole way through wow. This version I think is certainly better in some parts than what we got. Bruce disguising himself as Dick is weird and I agree, This version does make Bruce look dumb with the Ivy thing. It’s a shame hardly any of this got filmed though. This could have been the ‘Snyder Cut' of Batman and Robin lol i will also add that Batman fighting Bane throughout the film makes a lot of sense because the toy line had a verses two pack.

[@oliveremeralds8235]

@Joshua Glad you mentioned the 2 pack of the toyline. The bane figure had a double ended hook accessory. I think that might have been used to lower freeze down for the diamond heist like mission impossible

[@TheToyZone00]

@@oliveremeralds8235 wow I actually never thought of that. Interesting observation.

[@oliveremeralds8235]

@@TheToyZone00 please read one of my comments. In it I posted every idea for the movie that i think was turned into a toy gadget

[@catholic-ronin3682]

schumacher cut batman and robin

[@evanzaremba4722]

The Ivy thing with Uma Thurman and George Clooney as Batman/Bruce Wayne were the only two things that I had problems with in Batman & Robin, the same I had with Michael Keaton as Batman/Bruce Wayne, but I love the whole teamwork thing and theme of loss for the film.

[@oliveremeralds8235]

There is a lot that made it to the toy line 1) bat club- look at the bane figure. The handle and rod is the club. In the final script, batman ( shoots)launches the club at bane. It looks like it has the capability The bat net - challengers of the night figure- robin has a net, and gun Virtual helmet -during robin training- ice skate robin figure. It is a dick grayson figure with a weird helmet. In the final script and in the movie dick opens the door and sees Barbara. Hence maybe quick-change? Ice cutter batcycle- feature in the script- The blades can peel to the sides on the batgirl cycle toy Double ended hook bane- brawn vs brain-pack .He lowers freeze down into diamond mart Black suit poison ivy- night hunter vs evil entrapment figure. The other ivy figure which features this suit.

[@SuperHousePodcast]

Thanks for this, we replied in our latest episode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZpKQo4KHn9GYnKM

[@evanzaremba4722]

I would love to collect those.

[@jacksonwayneputnam1599]

Clooney pulling off an O’Donnell mask and saying that “friendship” line while standing bare-faced in the Robin suit would of been hilarious. Now I kinda wish they did that. Also, it would of actually been nice to get more of an actual fight between Bane and Batman. I’d be fine with that cheap “Knightfall” homage.

[@evanzaremba4722]

That's right. Very Rollin Hand/Paris. Very Martin Landau/Leonard Nimoy.

[@oliveremeralds8235]

Batman and robin is my favorite Batman movie. Anyone reading my comments, please read the novelization by Michael Jan freedman. If the movie was done similar to the novelization. We are looking at oscars. The Bruce Alfred scenes in the novel made me tear up. If you want to enjoy the movie, watch it for the visuals. The set designs, costumes, gadgets. It's so beautiful

[@evanzaremba4722]

My favorite too.

[@alexlemonds2838]

Predictably, I'm curious how different Ivy was.

[@evanzaremba4722]

Yeah, it was.

[@Ultriac301]

Mr. Freeze throwing BANE of all people across the room? NO WAY! His cryosuit triples his physical strength but at the end of the day that power boost is nothing compared to Bane's Venom serum! I'm SO glad this was left out.

[@santwandraws5825]

Batman returns is still my favorite of those 4, 89 close second but every shot in returns is literal art best looking of those 4 and the score as well

[@evanzaremba4722]

I loved all four of them.

[@walter_the_wobot2349]

So B89, Forever, and B&R all had superior scripts to what was filmed. If a film script is a movie’s blueprint, the director’s removed a few load-bearing walls.

[@Ian-hj4yt]

So Returns was the only one which got better when filming?

[@walter_the_wobot2349]

@@Ian-hj4yt Well, I don’t think it got any worse☺️

[@Ian-hj4yt]

@@walter_the_wobot2349 Well i think both 89 and Returns were better when filming. For the first movie it wouldn't make sense to have Robin there, so Batman being alone made it better to me.

[@walter_the_wobot2349]

@@Ian-hj4yt That’s true, but i think some good stuff with Bruce was lost from Sam Hamm’s original draft of Batman.

[@evanzaremba4722]

Yes.

[@bellboy64]

It's an interesting idea for Ivy to convince Robin to unmask for her but I'm not a fan of the "it's really Bruce in disguise!" thing, though not for the reasons discussed. It would suck to have one of Robin's few acts of agency in the movie taken from him. The relationship with Poison Ivy is one the few decent plot threads he's given. A toxic (no pun intended) echo of the Batman/Catwoman dynamic from Returns. And it would be interesting to see what could have been done about that if Ivy learned who he was. Would she even know WHO Dick Grayson is? Movie canons are free rein to do whatever. It'd be cool to see what story could be told if that taboo were willingly broken. Revealing the identity to an unrepentantly evil villain on a bad gamble. Could Robin be trusted again?

[@Sketchcraft]

I came for the Three Jump reaction and I was not disappointed.

[@BostonBruinsOWN]

So did ivys own plant eat her in first draft? Or handcuffs like I’ve seen elsewhere lol

[@evanzaremba4722]

In the original draft, she was handcuffed by Batgirl, and in the film, she fell into the plant.

[@DocBruceBanner]

The scene of Poison Ivy stripping out of the gorilla costume isn't totally random, it's a reference to the 1932 movie Blonde Venus with Marlene Dietrich. The scene's been uploaded to KZbin by multiple people so you can check it out. For decades, Dietrich was a gay icon so it's no surprise Joel was a fan...but like a lot of the classic movie references in the original 4 Batman films it went over the heads of comic book nerds.

[@SuperHousePodcast]

Great tidbit! We replied to this comment in our latest ep: kzbin.info/www/bejne/g4u6Y4B3h82FiJI

[@bellboy64]

I really like that they made a spectacle of it with the gorilla striptease too. It makes more sense in the final film certainly that she'd need and want to make a big impact with her appearance, in order to completely seduce Batman & Robin. It's better than her just randomly showing up from a line-up.

[@johnwells5414]

I would say my favorite of the original four Batman films is Batman Returns. This script was interesting… They definitely went overboard with the campy aspect of Batman’s history, but then again I am not a fan of the 60’s Batman like at all. I think Clooney could have pulled off a good dramatic Bruce Wayne, and I would have loved to see him face off with Patrick Stuart’s Mr. Freeze. As far as the ending of this script, the idea sounds good on paper, and it could have worked if the movie played up the tragic aspects of Mr. Freeze, Batman, Robin, and Batgirl, and not make as much of a cartoon, it could have been a good way to end things.

[@Em_Azhar]

Fun fact my mother used to work as a babysitter near a place in Italy called "Lago di Como" or "Lake of Como" that person had a manor and from there you could see Clooneys Manor and that would happen to look similar to Keatons Manor in Batman 89'

[@Surftheweb_1]

I love how he makes Mr. Freeze sound like a sadistic southern pastor 🤣 It's amazing, reminds me of The Devil All the Time, great video guys!

[@SuperHousePodcast]

Thanks! We replied to this in our latest episode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hpTZanWImauSh80

[@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319]

8:08 I think it was "I'm afraid that my condition has left me COLD to your pleas of mercy!" That line is so bad it's good. Whoops nevermind it's still in there lol

[@challengerblackjack]

Ice shields .... those would have come in handy

[@TheToyZone00]

I’d really like to see an episode on everything that was deleted from Gotham. I’ve been rewatching that show.

[@Dohsoda]

Batman & Robin was never a great movie. I liked it as a child seeing it in theater and on repeat viewings, but as I got older I could tell what its main problem was...it was rushed. If you watched 2005 documentary Chris O'Donnell talks about how quickly he went from finishing doing press for B.F. and hearing about the pre-production of B.&R. very quickly. If the series was continued their every 3 years path, so like in Summer of 1998, there would have been more time work on the script and possibly get Val Kilmer to be Batman again to then give the movie more consistency. Even Joel Schumacher felt exhausted by the fast tracked production of B.&R. and could not bring himself to do a fifth movie. However, if the movie was on par with B.F., and then continued to expand the Batman family with further sequels, we'd never have the franchise we know it today.

[@evanzaremba4722]

Don't forget Batman Returns. Because that film upsets parents and kids, but I had no problem with both Batman Returns and Batman & Robin.

[@evanzaremba4722]

Thanks for the post.

[@VenusHeadTrap2]

Andrew’s microphone is like three times louder than Ben’s. It’s not helping that Ben speaks kind of fast and under his breath a little.

[@TheToyZone00]

Hereee we gooooo

[@evanzaremba4722]

We're gonna kick some ass.

[@seancollins147]

What if Alfred really did die of MacGregor's Syndrome and came back in the next film as the Outsider?

[@gregorykollarus8190]

This is not my favorite Batman movie. But I still love it. It’s just so fun, and campy! It feels like Batman Returns and Batman and Robin are the gifts the directors got for doing a good job. Batman 89 is a wonderful film with Tim Burton Aspects. However Batman returns it’s like Tim Burton on crack going full goth! Forever it’s a wonderful Batman film with Schumacher qualities. But Batman and robin is full on camp campiness. It’s like the directors got to do more of what they wanted in their follow up films, yet the films upset mainstream audiences. I love all four of these films for different reasons! I love Batman 89, and forever for being wonderful Batman films, with wonderful directions. However I still love returns, and Batman and robin for being a little bit more of the directors choice.

[@evanzaremba4722]

Me too. Batman 89 with Jack Nicholson was phenomenal. Batman Forever with Tommy Lee Jones and Jim Carrey was great. Batman Returns with Danny DeVito and Michelle Pfeiffer was okay, and Batman & Robin with Arnold Schwarzenegger was alright to me.

[@Ian-hj4yt]

Returns is better than Forever

[@evanzaremba4722]

@@Ian-hj4yt grow up.

[@Ian-hj4yt]

@@evanzaremba4722 Why are you in all Burton/Schumacher Batman related videos? Maybe you should grow up instead

[@evanzaremba4722]

@@Ian-hj4yt I've grown and mature. I like Burton. I like Schumacher. And I like Nolan.

[@EyesOfTheInternet]

This could have been a much better movie if they had better and more consistently leaned into the camp. The first major problem is the casting of Clooney. He had no idea what he was doing here and what the tone should have been. The 2nd major problem was the bad dialog. The Batman 66 series and film had much better dialog.

[@zemasionxoxo]

my favorite movie of all time is batman & robin 😬 not ironically either lol i love it. to give an honest explanation as to why, i love camp. the costumes, the sets, the dialogue, it all feels like some strange, multi million dollar broadway show. i’m a huge believer in fictional characters like batman, superman, etc, being changed up and done in different styles since they’re not real people, ya know? they should be open to interpretation imo so i just love how out there this one is. 60’s camp mixed with 90’s edge. i just adore it. and on a more personal note, i’m gay and this movie has a huge following in the lgbtq+ community. gay director, lavish costumes, the homoerotic tension between batman & robin, uma’s very drag inspired interpretation of ivy (that reveal scene at the charity event is basically a drag performance), the colorful style, just everything screams gay lol it holds a special place in my heart. i wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of that batman & robin dialogue in this draft was cut because the studio said it was a little too gay lol like too on the nose. this was so fun to listen to! i thought i knew as much as there was to know about this movie lmfao i’ve seen it probably 100 times and done such a deep dive on it. thank you for this!

[@SuperHousePodcast]

Thanks for this, we replied in our latest episode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZpKQo4KHn9GYnKM

[@zemasionxoxo]

@@SuperHousePodcast aw just listened! thank you!

[@skeletorsnightmares9325]

read the batman 89 #5 it's out

[@evanzaremba4722]

I read it online.

[@jacksonwayneputnam1599]

WE AIM TO FREEZE

[@JaredPresleyExperience]

As mentioned in my other post, I think this script draft is very telling. Batman and Robin was notorious and bad, but not for having a lighter tone. If it was not connected to the other movies and done in the style fully of 66 it probably would have been better. However the mix of darks and colors and tacky costume designs really makes it mostly an ugly film. Schumacher doesn't get the full blame but many of those kinds of visual choices I do blame on him. The film was trying to be way too flamboyant while serious in others. The balance...well it was wasn't there. The movie, from top down was a rushed production with various themes that mostly miss the mark. So much happens in the movie but yet it's so boring. I'm in the camp that it's everyone's fault that the movie ended up as is, Top down. However, I will highlight that akiva goldsman is a hack writer. This episode cements that. Not just because it's obvious he never read a comic with Bane, or even this movie. Just look at his list of films. (Lost In Space, among others) I have a few friends who are really into screenwriting and they all loathe him. If I ever meet him I'm going to tell him I use toilet paper with the Batman and Robin script printed on it. Back to Batman. As a kid I remember enjoying Batman Forever. I still remember watching Batman and Robin in the theater and right there knowing something was way off. It just was boring and stupid. I definitely lost interest afterwards and really just didn't care for the toys, etc. I didn't see Subzero for years afterwards because the movie gave me PTSD of Mr. Freeze.