Secrets of the Sayyadina | Fremen Reverend Mothers | Dune Lore

[@robertsosna3557]

Another example of how Frank Herbert had a hold on vast subjects incorporated into his saga.

[@HarmonyEdge]

There was a line in the book where Jessica lamented, after recognizing the prophecy legend the MP had planted among the Fremen, that Arrakis was classified by the BG to be such a dreaful and dangerous place that required utilizing such a legend. Kinda curious now what other legends do they keep on hand and their equivalent ratings for the worlds they used those on.

[@napoliansolo7865]

Brian Herbert wrote quite a few novels of the Dune Universe. He used Frank Herbert's notes after Frank had died and Frank had worked with Brian on writing the Dune books. I've enjoyed reading them over and over because the saga is so expansive.

[@OdintheGermanShepherd]

Quality content, as always…great information and editing, and a wonderful voice. More Dune lore is always welcome!!

[@JamesBeard360]

Nerd Cookies is definitely one of the best with Dune Lore.

[@Shan_Dalamani]

@@JamesBeard360 Never bothered to learn to pronounce some words correctly, though. "See-etch"? LOL. I guess all words with "i before e" are therefore to have an extra syllable in them? The Lynch movie and the miniseries are the examples that should be followed.

[@NerdCookies]

@Susan Stenson Ah yes David Lynch's Dune - that supremely authoritative source of accuracy to the book... you know where it rains at the end of the movie... 🤣 Again Susan ignores the official audiobooks that say it how I do. Oh and also the AUTHOR who pronounced it SEE-AYCH in his excerpt readings. 😁

[@JamesBeard360]

@@NerdCookies please check your email later this evening. Wanted to interview you for my podcast.

[@Shan_Dalamani]

@@NerdCookies Logic fail. The fact that Lynch was stupid enough to have it rain at the end of the movie has zip-all NOTHING to do with how Fremen words were pronounced. There were actually some things the Lynch movie got right that the miniseries didn't. And if the Lynch movie is so terrible, why did Villeneuve base his movie's stillsuits on them, instead of how they were described in the novel? The miniseries has accurate stillsuits, so if Villeneuve was going to copycat something he should have copied those. I don't actually care about the "official" audiobooks. I don't do audiobooks, because they put me to sleep. It's also a fact that many audiobook readers don't bother finding out how to pronounce words or names with which they may not be familiar.

[@Beard_Hood]

Your voice is very calming. Love your content!

[@Age_of_Apocalypse]

Totally agree! She has a great, calming voice!

[@sydposting]

You always explain these concepts and aspects of world-building so clearly and concisely, focusing on the aims and motivations of these groups instead of over-explaining the (in-world) reasons for their behavior (which can be based on out-of-date science and/or Herbert's unconscious biases). It's totally invaluable for newbies to the Dune-iverse, as I once was. 🤗 It makes me so excited to see how Villeneuve will adapt these aspects of the story, since he's totally hit the mark in my eyes so far with regards to communicating the influence and power of the Bene Gesserit through sound design and staging, rather than exposition.

[@jaspr1999]

Your presentation is so good that it's hard to distinguish between quotes and your script as they blend so well together. Very cool! I agree. The Sisterhood really did not take into account the fanatical fervor behind the actions of the seeds they had sown. They were thinking of Imperial worlds that were used to Imperial philosophies and intrigues whereas the Fremen were an almost diametric opposite of those concepts.

[@7woundsfist]

I've always enjoyed the Fremen in the series. As a kid in the 80's my grandfather exposed me to many sci-fi books but for some reason Dune captured me and hasn't let me go 40 years later.

[@vikingskuld]

I'm the same way, I grew up with all kinds of sci-fi then I watched dune in the 80s and ran out to find the book. Been hooked ever since I couldn't tell you how many times I read that novel over the years. More then any other one book on the planet. That one really took hold of me. He was just a great writer.

[@tuckernutter]

I'm curious about other worlds that the BG have exercised the Missionara Protectiva

[@mariakelly90210]

Fun Fact: One of Lady Jessica's VERY distant ancestors, Elsa Faust, was a British Intelligence MI6 Agent on early 21st Century Earth.

[@cedricthomas4867]

Where did u get this tidbit?

[@hypolyxa7207]

@@cedricthomas4867It's a Mission Impossible reference :P

[@JohnFourtyTwo]

Great video and after just reading all the books recently, most of this is still fresh in my memory. I read "Spice Planet" a couple days ago that was written by Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson based off Frank Herbert's original outline for Dune and it's a great story in itself in my opinion. Some of the characters and places have different or similar names, but they're easily figured out. I like how Spice World is a much shorter story and tells the same story without any of the religious supernatural aspects of the Bene Gesserit, the Fremen have a much different aspect as well. The story has a better pacing and not bogged down with so much exposition dumps but with more dialog and action. Also, none of the weird Harkonnen aspects are there either, instead of a 10,000 year blood feud, it's a rivalry of something recent and more believable. You can read "Spice Planet" in "The Road to Dune" along with other background information and cut chapters from various books in the series; it's also in Audible format as well. Don't misunderstand me, I love the regular Dune story, just like seeing what it may have been based off the original outline. I consider Spice Planet hard sci-fi instead of sci-fi/fantasy like Dune.

[@Jared_Wignall]

These Dune videos are always very interesting to see. Keep up the great work!

[@tedball8677]

Very glad you keep posting quality Dune content. Thank you again, Ms Nerd Cookies.

[@adrianmcmahon5731]

I was 15 when I first read Dune, even then I was struck by the depth of Dunes story, how manipulation of supposed primitive people's leads to unforeseen consequences that ultimately led to the death of billions in Galaxy wide Jihad & traps humanity in a prescient cul-de-sac that Leto II sacrificed his humanity to avoid. I don't know how many times I have read all 6 books over the years.

[@Mg_L.A.]

I think k you should make your own audible book....its just refreshing to listen to your narrations. Thanks 😊

[@projectinlinesix]

Love the Dune content! Thank you!

[@jimkenealy6448]

Great summary of the Protectiva and extended sisterhood. Thats a critical component of the Dune saga and one that may not be fully appreciated by the reader. Especially those like me who really like bang boom zoom shields and las guns. Herbert spun a deeply complex story made real with the use of moslem fanaticism. Hence the use of the term jihad - first to describe the war against thinking machines and then as Paul unleashes the Fremen across galaxies. But the sisterhood was even more fanatical as they were messing with genetics to produce their super secret weapon. Even to the extent of coercing sisters to change the sex of their fetus. Dang.

[@sydposting]

What's absolutely incredible about this is that much of this was written before the Islamic Revolution in Iran (1979), which was like rocket fuel to ideology-fueled conflict in the Middle East. Herbert knew his history, and could only predict how it might repeat in real life in areas artificially portioned/sectioned apart by Western Powers, and influenced by their ideas on what was "civilized" and what wasn't. The Iranian Revolution was against an engineered puppet-monarch with support from the British (and, by extent, The West). Its *success* against all odds resulted in decades of suppression and misery for both Iran's neighbors, but also Iranian citizens that didn't fit the expectations of the new regime - most notably, men and women who wanted access to a secular education, not just the "necessary training" of a role dictated by the interpretation of scripture by the people in power. If any of this sounds familiar, I should point out that Margaret Atwood's main inspiration for The Handmaid's Tale was the sudden change in culture in Iran following the revolution. She chose to project the horror/surrealism of that sudden change onto the Feminist/Evangelical environment of the 1980's to make people aware of how things like this still happen in the Modern World, and how close we might be to experiencing that ourselves. Highly, highly recommend reading the graphic novel Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi for an excellent look into the mind of an Iranian woman with a secular childhood that was suddenly changed by the Revolution, and how it affected her as she grew into an adult.

[@flake452]

I enjoys these videos very informative for a relatively short video.

[@hucklebuck411]

Compliments on the detail you bring to the many aspects of the Dune universe. On a similar subject, I always found it somewhat strange that Frank Herbert brought the Jewish culture/religion into his later Dune novels. He never really gave a good explanation of why some Jewish women were influenced into becoming "wild" Reverend Mothers or what ceremonies they went through to become Reverend Mothers. The only one really mentioned was Rebecca who played an important part in rescuing the Bene Gesserit "Lampadas horde" of memories from Lucilla. Perhaps it shows just how much influence the Missionaria Protectiva had on all cultures throughout the empire, although Jews would already retain their own myths and legends tracing all the way back to old Earth. Or, perhaps a powerful female dominant group like the Bene Gesserit would hold an attraction for women from such a male dominated culture. The reader is told that there was a secret mutual protection agreement between the Bene Gesserit and the Jews, so there was ongoing contact between the two groups. The Dune Wiki states: "Another similar group was a sect of conservative Jews, located on Gammu. Though they still retained their ancestral religious traditions, they also learned many Bene Gesserit secrets, and started to produce their own Reverend Mothers (such as the Jewish Reverend Mother Rebecca). These Jewish Reverend Mothers did not emerge until the time of the Honored Matres, however."

[@JamesBeard360]

You've made my Sunday!! Another Dune Lore video!!!!!!!!! Please keep them coming.

[@ameii4222]

Dune Lore the cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast

[@shanenolan8252]

Lol . I thought that was a big kahuna burger ( pulp fiction)

[@napoliansolo7865]

Your videos are enjoyable and informative. I think it's about time I started reading the books again. Thank you.

[@NerdCookies]

Glad you like them!

[@mariakelly90210]

So the Sayyadina are basically multi-generational Bene Gesserit sleeper agents.

[@lawrencereid2767]

All love for the best video makers on KZbin

[@YllibD]

The alluring, wondrous orcicle of knowledge the great Elaine and groovy hubby Nick 👌

[@yibozhao1012]

Greetings from China. Thanks for your Dune videos. They're great and your voice makes them even more enjoyable!

[@Acekhan201]

I really appreciate the bit of literary analysis at the end. While I totally agree that the overall main point is to warn against religious manipulation, I think there is also a lesson here in the potency and place of religion and culture in humanity as well. These shades of meaning contribute to the overall themes of the series that what may be called good or evil are often more intertwined throughout history than our ideals would often lead us to accept.

[@danelamoreaux4166]

As always,love the channel and content. My favorite on the tube,hands down. Also,you're the best.

[@kinpatsu6366]

I can't wait for Denis Villeneuve's interpretation of the spice orgy. It's going to be EPIC.

[@kinpatsu6366]

And the Water of Life ceremony too....!

[@CoinSlotKitty]

I doubt we will get that scene I mean we couldn't even get the dinner scene or the scene with Jessica and Thufir

[@sydposting]

@@CoinSlotKitty idk man I think seeing Jessica undergo the ceremony will be pretty important, since it's what results in Alia being Pre-Born, and her being a Freaky Child is essential to the endgame. Besides, there are small signs of Thufir's treachery - dabbing his forehead nervously when approaching the Harkonnen in the wall - that can be expanded upon into full anxiety in Part Two, leading to what feels like a "natural" conclusion for him. The Dinner Scene, meanwhile, is just character expansion, which I feel was referenced well in lines like "THEY TRIED TO KILL MY SON" etc.

[@CoinSlotKitty]

@@sydposting I'm talking about the orgy

[@sydposting]

@@CoinSlotKitty That's what metaphor/subtext/montage is for! Like how the Duke came off as creepy and predatory in the film - think about how Leto was brought before him naked - without having to "tell" that through creepy comments about young men in his dialogue/thoughts.

[@eaglesclaws8]

the freman also share in this "other" memory during the ritual, every one drinks of the changed water of life and they have a huge siech orgy. Paul remarks to himself he can feel that the people are subconsciously linked without knowing it. which is also why they are such a force to recon with militarily. hawat sees it too when he is captured, the freman make no plan infront of him, they are ambushed and make the sardukar pay about 5 to 1 for the victory.

[@stelliocantos4639]

An interesting way to pronounce sietch. I think I need to look into it more to see if I've just been doing it wrong this whole time. Very good video as ever.

[@0farmerjohn0]

Liked and subscribed! excellent content!

[@Xeno_G23]

YES!!! More Dune vids. Loving it.

[@Davepool-hs7vr]

I love the sound of Elaine’s voice

[@Astrobrewster]

One of your best. Thanks

[@williamcolgin1987]

One thing I’m confused about is where did the Sayyadinas get the training for internal organic-chemical control to be able to perform the conversion of the water of life? That was a Bene Gesserit skill that required training from childhood.

[@sydposting]

tl;dr - The Bene Gesserit spent hundreds of years planting evidence of "miracles" within other civilizations, so in the event that a future Sister of the Bene Gesserit was stranded within that civilization, she would get the Road To El Dorado Treatment. This buys her time to call for help and get rescued, leaving behind a pre-written prophecy of some sort that's just vague enough to protect another Sister in the future, should she also be stranded. What sets the Fremen apart is the fact that they live on the planet that produces Spice, which produces heightened states of awareness and greater access to this "genetic memory" concept Herbert plays with across the series. This provided them with a sort of actual *physical* spirituality backing up the artificial prophecy-structure from the Missionaria Protectiva. Therefore, they have actual *influence* in making those artificial prophecies come *true.* Their understanding of Spice production also grants them access to raw/unfiltered versions of Spice - aka the Water of Life, produced by juvenile Sandworms when exposed to large (SACRED, to the Fremen) amounts of liquid water. Jessica only leans into the pre-seeded legend as much as is necessary to protect her and Paul until they can get back to the safety of Caladan; Paul wanting to stay, and instead follow the rest of the prophecy, is a special kind of terrifying to her, knowing the prophecy had artificial origins, but has been made "wild" by the background influence of Spice.

[@williamcolgin1987]

@@sydposting Thanks, I already understand the Missionaria Protectiva but that wasn't my question. My question is How were the Sayyadinas of the Fremen (before unlocking any racial memory) able to transform the Water of Life, into a non-toxic state without being trained in the BG skill of internal organic-chemical control. Jessica was only able to convert it because of her extensive BG training. The conversion was a rite of passage for Sayyadinas to become Wild Reverend Mothers of the Fremen.

[@adrianmcmahon5731]

@@williamcolgin1987I always took it to have been a full Bene Geserit embedded with the Fremen millennia before to spread the Missionaria Protectiva through their culture that over time and many generations of Sayadinas mutated into being more of a hybrid fusion of Bene Geserit & Fremen. Similar to how the Honoured Matres later had roots in the sisterhood before their migration during the God Emperor's long reign and desperate flight into uncharted territories only to return centuries later.

[@williamcolgin1987]

​@@adrianmcmahon5731 While the Freemen Reverend Mother's had their racial memories unlocked, I don't think there was any indication in the books that the Fremen were some sort of hybrid fusion of the BG. I've re-read the chapter where the Water is converted and it doesn't provide any clues. Jessica was a full on Bene Gesserit sister and still had to rely on her training in BG internal organic-chemistry manipulation to live through converting the water. The Fremen had none such training in the same way they had no training in the Weirding Way. Paul had to teach them. I'm guessing that Fremen Sayyadinas were able to convert the Water of Life possibly due to spice saturation giving them a natural immunity to most poisons but thats still conjecture. I honestly think it's just an oversight by Herbert.

[@SJTha]

I always had the idea that the wild Reverend Mothers did it on an instinctive level due to the Spice in their environment, so it was much more dangerous for them to try the Water of Life. It was dangerous for the Bene Gesserit, however their training gave them a different approach.

[@mudkoerfgen9843]

👍 from Perth Western Australia 🙃

[@josephKEOarthur]

Good to see and hear.

[@harvestcanada]

If 'The Sayyadina' is not a an idea for a novel or TV series with Jamis as one the characters. That would be the coolest thing. The idea of a powerful religious order ran exclusively by women has historical currency and no way makes the Bene Gessarit a far fetched concept, if we essentially understand the. History of religion 😃

[@AudraT]

Fascinating!

[@gerardmontgomery280]

I'm reading the prequel novels and wonder if James will tackle the seeding of prophecy amount the Fremen.

[@shanenolan8252]

Thanks elaine and nick

[@mcpheonixx]

I like the interplay of religion and society. Look at the societies here and now. Third world societies rely heavily on guidance from religion and it inspires radicalism in some places. Hard people, Hard life, extreme environs, strict moral and religious codes. Seem to go hand in hand!

[@thecarter8700]

I don’t think that’s the case for those countries at all Usually them being behind and/or being full blown colonized from the early modern era - post WWII has more to do with it then religion Although the fervent religion doesn’t help much now

[@marknovak6498]

You can create religion but you can not control where the believers take that belief structure. At least in the long run that is the case.

[@josephKEOarthur]

Great]work!

[@philgiglio7922]

Valid point about religion ..see CSNs Winchester cathedral

[@jerrysstories711]

Seems irreverent to lure God's physical manifestation over with a thumper so you can use it for transportation. I don't recall the disciples making Jesus Christ give them piggyback rides.

[@jephrokimbo9050]

@Jerry's Stories dune was written in the 1960s by brian herbert and that narrative is used as a metaphor to move the story along. think practicality.

[@vesawuoristo4162]

Religion in general tends to be destructive. Great video again.

[@User_Un_Friendly]

The predominant religion in the Imperium is codified in the Orange Catholic Bible. As I read Dune in high school, I was unaware of the significance and implications in the name. 🤣🤣

[@theLetterDoubleYou]

I don't think Frank Herbert was saying religious politics were "bad," he said they were unstable and uncontrollable, which is the Golden Path anyway. I don't think Frank thought in binary.

[@sydposting]

There's a reason why the Golden Path had an "end" in Leto II's memory, sorta like the Ancient One in Doctor Strange. You either die, or you get proven wrong, and then you die. Of course, IRL doesn't have to feel that grim, depending on how well you accept being proven wrong. 🤔

[@theLetterDoubleYou]

@@sydposting very true, the Golden Path did end. I meant the Golden Path was to make people inherently unpredictable and uncontrollable down to their genes. He ensured predictable complacency could never threaten the species again, it was too spread out, too complex and decentralized, too unstable and uncontrollable. In this sense Leto's Golden Path continues in the traits he leaves behind.

[@sydposting]

@@theLetterDoubleYou It's the same principle behind preventing things like genetic bottlenecks, I think! Eventually you have to recognize when equilibrium has been achieved and move on instead of trying to enforce any further ideology. Think how Eugenics is associated with racism and preventing "defects" rather than a neutral field of study like modern Genetics, which is more concerned with keeping track of genetic differences and recognizing/listening to people with those differences about how much/little those differences affect them, rather than writing them off as "defects." To use Dune as an example of this, it's unlikely Alia would have turned out like she did if she and/or the things that influenced her early development - Fremen indoctrinated with archetypes + stressful physical circumstances + easy access to psychic ability - had access to education disproving the ideology behind the Missionaria Protectiva, rather than growing up in an environment where the ideology was perpetuated by people like Paul and Jessica out of sheer survival in the moment. It's one thing to have "genetic memory" but another thing entirely to want to build upon - and gain the ability to build upon - rather than perpetuate those memories and experiences.

[@theLetterDoubleYou]

@@sydposting I'm not sure the blood of Siona was a bypass to a genetic bottleneck though, in fact it seems quite the opposite as her descendants have safety from prescience others don't. I'm probably missing your point, sorry. However in terms of the moment of equilibrium in Dune I think you are dead on in that the honored matres end Leto's worm-dream that predicts and shapes the future. This is the moment when humanity has become so diverse and strange it would even see reason to destroy such a valuable commodity. In dictating a future strange enough to perpetuate, Leto ensures that strangeness is a dominant characteristic, kind of a social waterfall of flux so large, no prediction could contain it.

[@sydposting]

@@theLetterDoubleYou Oh, I wasn't claiming any sort of influence wrt Siona in my hypothesis! Just broad observations on the shape of the original Dune novels. If anything, she "symbolizes" the limits of quantifiable data in sciences like statistics or ecology. When the old points of reference no longer resemble present circumstances, particularly when processed through established models and theories. Is it most ethical to force evolution back onto the "correct" model, capable of predictive modeling, or to let it resume full and true randomness, and actively study from there?

[@ClassicMagicMan]

Ah, yes, the "religion bad" commenters arrive right on cue.

[@nfboogaard]

Religion is unquestionable, however it always has it's roots in a form of ignorance, just like science and history. Not evolving and adapting leads to conflict and disaster.

[@shanenolan8252]

I thought alia meant ( friend to god ) . It mau be they are different languages each word meaning the same thing ?

[@sydposting]

Alia also has roots in the Latin root for religious festivals - like Bacchanalia, which is a festival devoted to drunkenness and "madness" associated with the god Bacchus, also called Dionysus. His followers, the Maenads, were the ones that tore Orpheus apart, after he failed in his quest to bring back Eurydice. Lots of possible interpretations!

[@shanenolan8252]

@@sydposting exactly frank used it in god emperor. In a bar ( baccus is here )

[@sydposting]

@@shanenolan8252 I feel like Herbert leaned into both the meaning I mentioned above and the association with "Allah" as a name of G*d in Arabic language families.

[@JSBselvas]

You know Quinn's Ideas?

[@PedroHenrique-dh8te]

How can a Fremen woman transform the water of life without the BG training?

[@di3486]

They can’t

[@genmaicha.lapsang]

Innate ability. Also, the Syadinna usually apprenticed under an older one. Also, In later books some Jewish women are shown to become wild "reverend mothers," usually to maintain the matrilineal lines.

[@CantankerousDave]

I hate to go all Inigo Montoya, but you repeatedly use the term "safety valve." It doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

[@NerdCookies]

My dear, I don't think YOU know what it means 😊... From Dune: "Jessica sighed, thinking: So our Missionaria Protectiva even planted religious SAFETY VALVES all through this hell hole. Ah, well . . . it'll help, and that's what it was meant to do ."

[@sarahdemarcus7710]

🙂

[@Kuwaitisnot_adeployment]

HALO FROM PARAMOUNT➕ ????

[@Ender7j]

Constraining oneself to the original books, does anyone know why women did not see the future? Only the Atreides and the Guild could do this, right?

[@genmaicha.lapsang]

From what I understand some women were prescient. It's a rare trait generally in the Dune universe. But after Paul and Leto II, the BGs actively tried to avoid it.

[@paulleverton9569]

Very interesting. All the best fantasy/sci-fi is strongly influenced by human history, anthropology, comparative religion and linguistics.

[@gerrykomalaysia2]

Good vid, viva ukraine