How The Bene Gesserit Manufactured A Messiah | Dune Lore

[@NerdCookies]

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[@JamesLaserpimpWalsh]

I think right now, there is a MASSIVE hole in the entertainment industry that needs filling. Disney are going to go breasts up as a company at this rate and that means OPPORTUNITY. Chaos is a ladder so the man said. People like us need to step up. Fill that creative void and make piles of cash while we are at it. Im jotting down ideas, you should do the same.

[@EternalRoman]

Perfect explanation of the details concerning the Bene Gesserit Sisterhood's hubris. It was so funny that even after thousands of years after Paul Muad'Dib they still had the gall to refer to him and his son the god Emperor Leto II (III) as the "Failed Kwizats Haderachs" showing that the Sisterhood lacked the humility or even the wisdom to recognize their own folly. Both Muad'Dib and Leto II loved acting on spite against the Sisterhood, many people miss that. They would go against everything the Sisterhood wanted them to do, and of course Maud'Dib and Leto II were always aware and do things to anger them and dissuade them from ever trying to create another "messiah". Cause it was learned that Count Fenrir was a previous attempt at a Kwizats Haderach before Paul, only for Fenrir to be born a eunuch, thus failing to develop full prescience due to lack of a strong link to the Male Genetic memory that the Kwizats Haderach is supposed to have. By the end of the 6th novel, we still see that the Bene Gesserits still retained their stupid idea in wanting to control, but were very wary on trying to create another Kwizats Haderach, to the point of denouncing ever doing it again, unless they were sure to control him, lol.

[@cloudbloom]

Frank Herbert set up such a brilliant mythos in the books it's very impressive

[@RodneyGraves]

Read Dune, then stop. He never hits that level again.

[@bowlerfamily]

​@Rodney Graves really?

[@cloudbloom]

@@bowlerfamily don't listen to him, all six Frank Herbert books are amazing and have poignant things to say. Book 4 in particular blew my mind they are all well worth reading

[@bowlerfamily]

@@cloudbloom thanks

[@RodneyGraves]

@@bowlerfamily Really. Your milage may vary.

[@ThompPL1]

Paul did ultimately become the father of the Savior of Humanity (who indeed emerged into being 'on time' exactly one generation later) : Leto II Atreides, The God Emperor who finally set Humanity onto The Golden Path (i.e. genetically programmed rejection of sheltered safety that leads to fatal stagnation).

[@thestanleys3657]

"he's not the Messiah he's a very naughty boy" 😂😂😂

[@TillionTirrion]

😂

[@shanenolan5625]

😆

[@Davepool-hs7vr]

🤣

[@alexedi]

As you have surely mentioned in other videos, Dune is, among other things, about the dangers of messianism, fanaticism and political manipulation. Very nice video, as always. I always look forward to your next Dune video, as a ”dunie” myself :).

[@sennull6884]

Beware charismatic leaders. Spot on there.

[@Fafnd]

You tried to create a godlike being and you thought you could CONTROL him?!?!

[@benegesserit9838]

touche!

[@largol33t1]

Simply thinking about the idea makes me laugh. It also makes me shudder that someone would even attempt this. I can only hope that we never really can manufacture a god-like being. That would be worse than a million a-bombs...

[@thezplayer3002]

​@@largol33t1i guess frank wrote Dune as a warning to humanity: don't try to create a godlike being or you will be fked up

[@marknovak6498]

The idea you create a myth you no longer have control of it is one of the truly powerful concepts created by Frank Herbert.

[@User_Un_Friendly]

The Godmakers. Dosadi Experiment. Destination Void. It's a recurring theme for FH. 😮

[@marknovak6498]

@@User_Un_Friendly I read those too but all those books were written after dune. The only published work that I am aware of before Dune was a story he wrote under a pen name for a western pulp fiction magazine that he made all his friends and family swear to keep the name of the story secret.

[@User_Un_Friendly]

@@marknovak6498 The Godmakers were published in several parts before 1965. You're right about Dosadi and Destination Void, however.

[@User_Un_Friendly]

@@marknovak6498 Doc Savage Magazine 1946 April. The story is called "The Jonah and the Jap". 🤣. Herbert published the Godmakers in the pulps starting in the 50's, in parts.

[@SMoggyinski]

Pretty much precisely what happened on Earth a couple of 1000 years ago. Jewish people had the myth of a messiah who would lead them against the Romans, restore the Jerusalem Temple and usher in the end times (with Yahweh's help). Which cataclysmically failed: Yahweh didn't intervene, the Jewish Revolt failed and the temple and an entire belief system were destroyed. So the Romans simply respun the whole messiah idea for their own (political) purposes and its origins have since largely been forgotten. Not least by Christians who still base their contradictory and absurd mythology around it. While the idea itself has been used to very effectively manipulate and control people for over 1500 years. Humans, pssssssh.

[@rlarkinson]

It reminds me of a slippery fish that the sisterhood tried to grab hold of, and splash.. it slips through their fingers and simply swims away.

[@stefbeg]

I think it is implied somewhere that Shaddam IV was denied a son because the Bene Gesserit wanted the KH to become the legitimate leader of mankind, by marrying one of the five imperial heiress.

[@Stitchman3875]

Actually it was Jessica who was supposed to have a daughter who would marry Feyd Rautha and their child would be the KH.

[@stefbeg]

@@Stitchman3875 yes, but was not the KH born from Feyd and the Atreides daughter supposed to marry one of the princesses in the BG scheme ?

[@Stitchman3875]

@@stefbeg You know that's a good question. All I remember was that the KH was supposed to be a scheme manufactured by the BG in order for them to control the landsraad. I'm not sure if there was marriage plot. If so, then it was a massive failure, because Paul basically stripped everything away from them.

[@barbara9315]

There was a plan for the KH to marry a granddaughter of the emperor. But we all know how that came out.

[@martinainscough9226]

“Never follow a leader without asking your own questions.” ― Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune Cheers.

[@garengatorlope1004]

Another factor is the Bene Gesserit had the benefit of their female ancestors while the kwisatz haderach had the female AND the male lines to draw from

[@shaneashby5890]

And in 2023 considering how woke everyone is and that feminists want everyone to believe that women are more powerful than men. It's definitely entertaining that the most powerful being in the Dune universe is a man and then his son the God Emperor. I'm still waiting to see the woke mob call out and label Frank Herbert as a misogynist when he certainly is not.

[@User_Un_Friendly]

In genetics, what the Bene Geserit was proposing by having an Atredes female breed with Feyd Ruatha is called "Inbeeding", because Jessica is Baron Harkonnen's daughter. Unless Feyd is not related to Baron Harkonnen, and we have absolutely no evidence of that, this was a deliberate decision by the Sisterhood to breed close relatives together (cousins) in an effort to conserve desirable genetic traits. It's been mentioned in the book, that had Feyd been brought up under the strict, but fair and disciplined environment like the Atredes household, he might have turned very differently.😮

[@sectorgovernor]

Yes, Jessica and Feyd are first cousins, though not completely - the Baron (Jessica 's father) and Abulurd II Harkonnen (Feyd' s father) are half brothers.

[@Dularr]

They are second cousins.

[@manwiththeredface7821]

I think the Kwisatz Haderach didn't come too early, it's just that the Bene Gesserit did not know what to do with him. To them a Kwisatz Haderach was just the end product of something akin to a dog breeding program and a tool they hoped to control, and through him the entire humankind, just like pre Butlerian Jihad AI was used for the same purpose (yes, in Dune we're witnessing how the ban on AI was but a superficial solution because the real problem is always some group of humans trying to control another group). They didn't count on the fact that the KH is still a human with his own motivations, desires and all. And with the near destruction of his family those personal motivations became top priority for him, setting him on the one way path to be an enemy of the Bene Gesserit.

[@erikbjelke4411]

An idea that's been growing stronger in my head as I'm thinking about Dune, and looking over questions and comments on TV Tropes. . . The Messiah arrived a generation early. When Paul informs Jessica that she's Baron Harkonen's daughter, they both immediately realize that the Bene Gesserit thought they needed to double-down on some specific piece of genetics that a close Atreides-Harkonen breeding would produce (if Paul had been a woman, then mating with Feyd-Rautha would have been first cousins once removed). The Bene Gesserit just didn't expect that the necessary genetics were already in place. But. . . were they? Given what Paul, and later Leto II bring to humanity, were they *really* kwizatz haderach in full? If that "missing" bit of genetics had been obtained, would the hypothetical son of Paulina Atreides and Feyd-Rautha Harkonen have been better equipped to use their prescience to guide humanity to a good future, eliminating all the bad that occurred as Paul and Leto II sought to avoid a bad one? Probably not. . . Dune is, after all, far from a totally optimistic universe, and of the corrupt power structures that exist at the time we enter the narrative, the Bene Gesserit are among the worst. The rot had well and truly set in, and drastic action would probably be inevitable if it were to be removed. Still. . . it makes one wonder, if there can be a "failed" kwizatz haderach like Count Fenring, can there be a "successful enough, but not as successful as he might have been" kwizatz haderach? Is Paul just at the bottom end of what one could have been, and could another generation or two have made a difference?

[@Emanon...]

I don't think so. Leto II knowingly sacrifices his humanity and ushers in a regime of total tyranny to force humanity out of stagnation and to yearn for freedom. The BG would have simply controlled the KH and continued the stagnation if their plan had succeeded. In essence, he was "the Messiah humanity needed, not the one they deserved..."

[@rumorcontrol7873]

I wonder if the originally planned Kwisatz would have rebelled against the mothers in the same way?

[@UnquenchableHarvest]

The Bene Gesserit's endeavor to save man from his hubris was noble.

[@AudraT]

This video really connects alot of the dots. Certain things from the movie are starting to make more sense.

[@smoore6461]

Great video, I love the background music on this one as well. I know Frank Herbert would probably not agree with me buy I have always loved the Benne Geserite, some of the most interesting storylines in the books, and some of my favorite characters come from them.

[@patrikisgod]

i think he enjoyed the BG a lot too :)

[@smoore6461]

@Pat's Content I think much like Paul and Leto II, the Benne Geserite are a cautionary tale told by frank..I mean hell Dune, and up to God Emperor are cautionary tales. :) You're probably right though thr idea it's said came from an Aunt of Frank's who was a Jesuite, and he spent a lot of time with. At least, that's how I have always heard itsaid, how he first came up with the BG idea and the model for them.

[@TheIslingtongirl]

Really the saddest thing about Paul. He was never ok with any of it.

[@dmac3183]

Your efforts with pronouncing the words are appreciated.

[@casualcomicfan2390]

Wonderful video, you have a gift for breaking down complex concepts for everyday people to understand.

[@RodneyGraves]

On behalf of my lady and myself, thank you and well done in your coverage of this and other topics. We just completed re-reading (she for the sixth time, me for my fifth) Dune for our neighborhood SF book club. We have some quibbles with your interpretation of a few things. The Sisterhood of the Bene Gesserit seem to us to have no great reverence nor faith, instead quite cynically using religion as a panoply and tool towards their larger agenda of political mastery. Since they exist in a long standing stable feudal system, the Sisterhood view the genetic refinement of the noble houses to be one of their most valuable tools to achieve their political ends. Towards these ends they view the creation of the Kwisatz Haderach, one with the hereditary gifts which they could refine and train (and thus control) from inception, as a key to their political ends. Herbert holds up Count Casimir Fenring as one of the failed attempts of this breeding program; a sterile dead end. The Sisterhood do not realize his value as Paul-Muad Dib does, for he realizes that has has never seen the Count in any of his visions. He deduces that several of his own unseen deaths were at this hand, but that is more his Mentat training than his abilities as Kwisatch Haderack. Note as well that the Sisterhood did not view the Mentat skills and abilities as needful for their creation, that training of Paul was a choice by Jessica, Leto I, and Thuffir based on the abilities and potential the young Paul had demonstrated to them. Thank you again and do please keep up the good work. We were particularly impressed by the balance and restraint you showed in your nonetheless scathing review of Amazon's (in your apt words) Bastardization of Tolkien's Legendarium.

[@darkcontrast8470]

How has this channel not exploded

[@Jared_Wignall]

Your Dune videos are always entertaining and interesting to watch, keep up the great work Elaine!

[@coartramey7382]

Powerful stories can move and motivate people who believe them but they merge with the minds of believers and evolve along unpredictable paths. I think the Dune series itself illustrates that fact as well as using it as a central story element.

[@JamesLaserpimpWalsh]

Thanks for the vid. Great work as ever.

[@smoore6461]

I also think it's very interesting that Leto said of all the groups under his reign. The Benne Geserite were the only ones he thought of wiping out completely. His reasoning was fascinating.

[@shaneashby5890]

I guess when you look at history it's easy to see why matriarchial societies don't work. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Whenever you concentrate power in a very small group of human beings it always ends in tyranny.

[@RodneyGraves]

Citation? Having just re-read I don't remember that at all...

[@smoore6461]

@Rodney Graves Leto was talking to a revernd mother, and he said, "The only group he ever thought of destroying was not the Talaxiu or IX because the benne Geserite were so close to what they should be and basically should know better. I believe it was on one of his perigrination. It was one of the things "found," and the reverend mother never revealed it in her life they found it in her papers after her death. I forget her name. But that's the context around the event. It was the sister who died in the spice agony as Leto foresaw he told her message because he knew she would not be around to telk her sisters, and they would find our later. I THINK I remember her name was Chahone(sp) or something like thet. it's been over 3 years since i read GEOD. It may also have been related to the execution or the 9 historians when the Benne Geserite came to protest what he had done.

[@RodneyGraves]

@@smoore6461 So not in the novel "Dune" but in one of the other novels of the series... Which Leto and which novel?

[@smoore6461]

@Rodney Graves i believe it was actually in God Emperor of Dune. It may well have been one of the quotes from the stolen journals or a Benne Geserite report that usually starts a chapter in the book

[@shanenolan5625]

Thanks, Elaine. ( and Nick )

[@busterjay64]

I read the books when I was too young, so much went over me. Thanks for sharing this fascinating work fiction. I love the scale of Dune. The comment, trinocular vision, might seem quirky on the surface but it is so much more. In the recent dune film when Paul scoffs at the idea of bringing about "the one" how Lady Jessica reponds " a mind" is epic, one of my favorite scenes.

[@RodneyGraves]

Dune (the first novel) is very re-readable, and I commend that to you. I think you will find that the other novels in the series by Frank Herbert fail to hit the same level, and the continuation and prequel books by other authors are better left un-mentioned.

[@tarkajedi3331]

If Frank Herbert was alive today he would be subscribed to Nerd Cookies !!!!!!!

[@di3486]

100%

[@ThompPL1]

🔥💯 !

[@bursegsardaukar]

The Bene Gesserit lost control of their manufactured messiah and Paul also lost control of the Jihad he unleashed on the universe. Humans are confident that they are in control until they realized too late they aren't.

[@ljosephdumas3113]

It's Frankenstein. You create something you can't control that then destroys you.

[@msgtpauldfreed]

Their problem was that they wanted control. They got what they wanted, and he didn't subscribe to their view of the Universe. But through their breeding program they made him more powerful of all of them combined.

[@shaneashby5890]

The fact that the Bene Gesserit chose the evil psychopathic Baron Harkonnen over the virtuous honourable Duke Leto Atreides tells you everything you need to know about the Bene Gesserit. Also, the fact that the Bene Gesserit misandrist Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam upon immediately meeting Paul Atreides. She bosses his mother around right in front of him, then uses the voice on him, then threatens to kill him and then tortures him with the box more severely than any other human in history, and also played a vital part in the murder of his father. It's not surprising Paul had such disdain, contempt, and mistrust for the Bene Gesserit. There was no controlling Paul after that. This is why matriarchy don't work, and when you take into account how powerful the Kwisatz Haderach would be. The fact that they thought they could control Paul just goes to show, yes just like you said, pure hubris by them on every level.

[@theturquoisedream9244]

Lunchtime Dune Cookies!!!!! Yayyyy!!!🤩🤩🤩

[@maxmercer1931]

And then the whole plan is ruined by the "No-Gene"

[@NatHazel]

I think a quote from one of my favorite movies sums up pretty well “We dreamed of creating the strongest Pokémon… and we succeeded.”

[@tarkajedi3331]

Brilliant writing !!!!!

[@knutboehnert3163]

One's plan never survives contact with the enemy

[@orendungan3455]

Lovecraft had the best advice for all those who seek to control that which they have created: Do not call up that which you cannot put down. Herbert even says it later in his own words: The power to destroy a thing is the absolute control over it.

[@shanenolan5625]

Look at her , a reverend mother. Patient in a patient cause. , 90 generations. Thry have waited. And prepared,

[@dand3953]

The Bene Gesserit was developing the QH not as a "leader," but as a primary servant of their cause. Planning to ultimately control every aspect of his education and life, the BG leadership expected to manipulate the QH as they did all their other sisterhood members. Mama Jessica crapped all over that plan by bearing him out of sequence and failing to get a BG specialist in erotic enslavement to sexually imprint him. THEN, the QH had a son with a genetically rogue female, that son of whom then evolved with such a dynamic leap of physical and intellectual talent that the BG was effectively neutralized for several thousand years as humanity's primary leading institution of species survival.

[@shanenolan5625]

Be careful what you wish for , you might just get it.

[@jamesmaples1255]

Given how unusual it was for the Bene Gesserit to birth sons, why choose a son for the embedded prophecy among the Fremen?

[@jasonworlock5113]

The problem that the Bene Gesserit didn't understand which made their plan to create a messiah that they could control was that for the Kwisatz Haderach to be that messiah he would need knowledge that they did not have. Once an apprentice knows more than their mentor there is no need to follow the mentor. The Kwisatz Haderach was to be a male Reverant Mother, but he would have access to both sides of his family's ancestral memories, whereas a Reverant Mother would only have the memories on their mother's side.

[@danielschaeffer1294]

“Don’t follow leaders - watch the parking meters.” - Bob Dylan

[@lordthothy]

Excellent video, as always!

[@jennabronson4704]

The very Herbert part was how their “creation” ended up ruling them... in ways even Odrade had trouble understanding.

[@Acekhan201]

It is good to see and understand religions as potential tools that can be weilded by mortal human beings, even with their own weaknesses, but as an input to the lives of many in a society, it is also a mistake to believe total control is possible, either. Rather, the most defensible use of religion is arguably for guiding personal and social development across generations with fewer outbreaks of violence. Herbert is still the master of capturing this tension in fiction, and it makes for an incredible read.

[@michaelfisher7170]

Its been in my mind since my first reading of the Dune series. We know the Bene Gesserit reaction to Paul. But id love to read a well documented story of their reaction to realizing that...Leto ll was Pauls son...that Leto was also a kwizatch haderach...and then their reaction whrn they csme to know Letos merging withe the sandtrout and his transformation. The initial knowledge of all yhis must have come as an eathquake to the sisterhood.

[@TheSellick]

Love you nerd cookies

[@jerrysstories711]

I always kind of contrast the BG with the priestesses of Avalon in the Mists of Avalon series. The priestesses gave some guidance to local rulers, and they also collect genes from top-level males in a sort of ad hoc breeding program. One they did do that the BG really should have done was keep all the breeding women at Avalon and let the horny dukes come to them. They way, you don't lose control of your Kwisatz Hederach!

[@kipclifton9403]

Yay cookies today !!

[@CultureInk]

Such a great video :)! I made one recently on the importance of myth throughout Dune and was hoping someone would do a deep dive into the BG !

[@Gabes_Game_Cave]

Boy, their plan sure backfired.

[@sgt.grinch3299]

Thank you.

[@Skyben2]

Reminds me of all the Super-AI movies

[@mariar3767]

The books are a great lesson in politics , religion and manipulation . Should be read by anyone . It helps understand the world around us and how groups of people react , how opinions , and behavior is manipulated . I do like the sisters . I think they also saw the future and the risk of extintion for humanity but their vision was limited . Paul and Leto could see the complete image of what had to be done . I think both sisters and Leto had the same goal . Maybe if the plan worked and sisters guided the messiah things could have been less bloddy . Sisters lost control of their creation and Paul lost control of the freemen. Once their religious war started they become like a force of nature, like a huricane . No one could stop it and Paul knew he can only ride that wave . Like a dam broken it flow and to stay in its way was death .Leto inherited a more stable empire thanks to Alia and unlike his father he was not afraid to become the neccessary monster . He was a hero in the end . He did kill half a universe but he also sacrifice his own life and in the end set everyone free . It is a concience question the book asks . How moral it is to sacrifice so many for a better future . In the end the sisters are the ones holding civilization together after the chaos Leto death left .

[@bytehead904]

I find it strange that the BG basically ignored half of the equation, that being the genetics of the females. NOT knowing the exact genetics of the women they indoctrinated (remember, Mohaim didn't know that she was Jessica's mother!).

[@ggjjjbvfthj]

Mk ultra I am the Kwisatz Haderach Persian royalty Ancient Egyptian lineage Brought up Catholic Followed by spirituality I am a powerful psychic I am to become a powerful ruler I am going to change the world My destiny was written in the stars Prophecy

[@jamezkpal2361]

A woman will always try to change a man to suit her purposes. Sometimes she will think she has succeded, but she will ultimately fail. A man must be himself if he is to survive and provide. Taking a man's self will destroy him. The best thing a woman can do is recognize a man, and love and support his strengths and weaknesses. The best a man can do is love the woman for herself, and give her what she needs. The witches tried to control rather than support. This cannot be done successfully.

[@pyroromancer]

that over exposed and saturated pic of new Paul thou

[@rafaelludicanti2]

Ill adreess you sppropially

[@TillionTirrion]

🍪👹👍

[@Davepool-hs7vr]

The Bene Gesserit should have planned better

[@sennull6884]

The Bene Gesserit teach me that religion should never be trusted and even the most detailed and micro managed plans will fail thanks to human will and chaos.

[@manwiththeredface7821]

Religion is only one tree in the forest. I'm sure the real lesson Frank Herbert had in mind was "people will always try to control one another, through religion or through AI or through anything else".

[@sennull6884]

@@manwiththeredface7821 I do not disagree. However for me, it is the Bene Gesserit that teach the religion lesson. Mental, the Guild, even House Atriedes itself teach the other lessons.

[@janetmontgomery-r6j]

The BG were very arrogant I think, in their planning and actions and attitudes. Very cold hearted bravo those who went against their teachings

[@itwasalladream7134]

Planned parenthood vibes...

[@kcvriess]

Content so fascinating. Voice intonation so annoying.