What Is Gaijin Thinking (Su-27) | War Thunder Update: Air Superiority

[@jaym2267]

Crazy how Gaijin has to resort to nerfing planes instead of just remaking the actual gamemode

[@BigNes445]

How exactly would they remake the game mode

[@friendo1357]

@@BigNes445 here is a way to fix AIR RB: add objectives. spread out the airfields and make the maps bigger with more objectives on the map. so people would not all just start sending missiles in the middle of the map and having a fur ball. increase the players to 25 players on each team. add SAMs on the map ( just like DCS does) so no one fly low on the deck.

[@YesImVirgin]

@@friendo1357 and they could make it EC mode like in SIM. And maybe not increase players to 25 but decrease it cause 16v16 is too much already. 10v10 on EC type of map and gameplay would be optimal.

[@Fuzzyhead16]

people need to lern their cornerspeeds and understand that not every Dogfight is a nose 2 nose fight, also that everyone flies on the deck wich is a nose to tail fight aka 2 circle or RATE fight, the su 27 canot beat a f16 in a rate fight, but in a one circle she can. Just dont exspect to win the fight in the first 2 turns u need drain the energey out of the f16. Its not the planes fault its the Pilots fault.

[@Migthunder]

@@Fuzzyhead16 finally some common sense

[@DangerousSkyFel0n]

How did gaijin mess up so badly that the flanker of all Planes can’t dogfight…

[@Donut833]

It definitley can. Dueled a SU-27 for probably 45 mins last night in my F15. Beat me in a one circle, which I kinda expected, but it also kept up with me in the two circle. While it may not have been able to put its nose on for a actually decent shot, it doesn't matter. The R73s negate any advantage in the rate.

[@SteelxWolf]

Instructor makes or breaks aircraft. In sim this thing is better than any other dogfighter. The F16C not having 9Xs gives the Su-27 the best chance at winning slow dogfights as soon as an R73 can be locked

[@TheLastApplePie]

​@@Donut833preflare

[@cookiecracker2]

that's strange...on the dev server it could beat f16, f15, and f14 easily. I saw some fm changes but I didn't think they would be that drastic.

[@Donut833]

@@TheLastApplePie That’s great for a 1v1, but it doesn’t work. If they radar slave with acm/Hms they will have a good lock.

[@elenaeverett4481]

I like how it completely invalidates the Mig29's existence.

[@cookiecracker2]

Mig-29 is a bit faster, so it's not a complete upgrade. But yea it does kind of power creep it.

[@MarkDrisch]

I thought so at first, too, but the 29G is still a better donkfighter, and the SMT is still better at BVR. The Su-27 tries to combine both into one plane and falls short of being good at either.

[@Migthunder]

​@MarkDrisch what are u on about. Irl the flanker is better at both.

[@henryatkinson1479]

@@MarkDrisch The SMT is an absolute boat and it only gets 2 ERs on top of that.

[@99redpontoons]

@@Migthunder ah, yes, because Russian documentation available to the public never contains misinformation...

[@theamericancommie727]

You couldn’t have said it better, the R-27ER is so busted and nerfing its flight performance to “balance” is just silly. I would’ve preferred R-27R to keep the flight performance as this aircraft is one of my favorites ever. In terms of what is meta, I feel like you couldn’t go wrong with the Su-27 or F-15, some games people just go low all the time and I find it hard to find that one guy who isn’t low, but at other times there is people going balls deep in the sky waiting to eat an ER. But still, when AMRAAMs are added I’ll just enjoy it for what it is, thanks seek for covering one my favorites

[@areyou0k98]

All r27s are over performing lol, they have terrible seekers and Russia's know to fudge their actual performance on paper to be better than it actually is.

[@damionhiggins2625]

Remember why they did it though. They added it because they fucked up the mig-29 so to get people to play the 29 again they gave it the ER.

[@jayklink851]

I got the SU-27 today, the missiles are outstanding, no doubt. But I must say, I was a little disappointed with the flight performance. The original Mig 29 that we saw in game, before the nerf, may be the best overall flight model that we'll see. That is, unless Gajin alters their balancing approach.

[@hitomaru12]

How did the air superiority doctrines of nations in war thunder completely flip? Russia gets all the best missiles, BVR, IR, etc…, while The west gets all the best dogfighters. I mean, if they do give the Su-27 a better flight performance, they better give the Eagles Aim-120s. Or at least ECMs.

[@shepardpolska]

Doubt ECM will do anything at the avarage WT combat ranges. All top tier radars will easily burn through the jammers at like 20-30km. And most jets have lock on jam anyway

[@kyoMcMushy]

The aim-120 will never be added unless the r-77 is added alongside it. People don’t understand just how BIG of an advantage fox-3s against sarh is.

[@areyou0k98]

​@@kyoMcMushy early amraams would be the exact same thing as the aim 7m just self guiding, and people are barely turning and dodging aim 7ms like it's a mini game lol.

[@nymeric5833]

@@kyoMcMushy average russian main.

[@Kumyar]

What did you expect? USSR always had faster missiles with more range, but worse radar techonology. Even today, R-37 doesnt really have a competitor. Maybe Meteor can challenge it but R-37 is a hypersonic while Meteor is ramjet missile that has massive range because it has more fuel thanks to no having to carry oxigen for the rocket motor. It's not faster then R-37. And god forbid you launch that thing at low alt. It will struggle to reach Mach 2 lol We gotta wait to see the numbers the AIM-260 can achieve. But i doubt it will be faster then R-37 and thus, in a 1v1 joust, R-37 will probably win.

[@TrampMachine]

It's crazy what they did to russian jets in war thunder. The whole russian philosophy was that in a large conflict the BVR wasn't going to be the deciiding factor so they made them some of the best dog fighters in the world, at least for pulling AOA. The Mig-29 flies like a mig-21, and the SU-27 can pull insane AOA but loses speed absurdly fast. I don't really get what they're thinking.

[@abidbmtt]

And the american philosophy is that BVR matters the most yet the F15 still has its shitty AIM-7Ms instead of AIM-120s

[@SpookySm1le]

Aim 120a is basically just a side grade to the sparrow granted you can turn away and notch but you're still going to lose a joust still going to have to eat the deck for cover and you know have less missiles.The first generation of them still gets outranged by the r27@@abidbmtt

[@somerandomviewerno2730]

@@abidbmttthey won’t add it because it would make all the Z tards upset that their high aoa means nothing if they simply get out ranged

[@ShaanT31]

idk who told you that but youre wrong, the soviet philiopshy was that itll be so chaotic and filled with ECM and radiation that they planes were focused to for faster interception and taking stuff out as it arrives near their air space, their philosphy was faster missles and better turning over range and better tracking which was american philosphy, the mig25/31 and su27 quite literally prove your idea of bvr wrong

[@krylassa]

lmao Mig29 doesn't fly like mig21, are you tripping

[@gansior4744]

Radar and missiles started matter more then FM, when FG. 1 got the PD and became the absolutely best jet in game. Golden era of top tier jets

[@collander7766]

3:05 honestly I prefer the R-27R (not ER) kinetically too to the Sparrow. I find that a lot of people are getting the hang of simply dodging Sparrows without notching them. Cant really dodge the 35G R-27. A skilled R-27R user will beat any Sparrow slinger any day of the week, or at least force a stalemate/merge. But they shouldn’t ever lose. And that’s why I’m still confused as to why the R-27ER was added more than a year ago and still doesn’t have even a close competitor. Not even AIM-7MH or AIM-7P lmao. Or INS for Super 530D. Seriously the ER could’ve never been added and Russia would’ve been fine, even now.

[@shepardpolska]

They added them because R-27R at the time performed worse then a R-24R, and the Radar on the MiG was really buggy and shitty. ER is probably fine on the migs, but Su should either not get them or only get two, the same way the MiG-29SMT is artificially limited to 2

[@collander7766]

@@shepardpolska yeah I guess, I just don’t like arbitrary balance decisions that don’t actually make any sense, like only allowing a certain amount of R-27ERs. Would’ve just been better to not have it in the first place imo but the cat is already out of the bag

[@UUUU-dn9wz]

ER was rushed in full panic mode because the R-27R was modelled incorrectly at the time (got multiple fixes in the year) and the only other missile the MiG-29 had was the R-60m which definitely was not enough to contest F-16s. Going back in time it would have been better to just give the MiG-29A R-73 without IRCCM (just like what Magic2s were for a long time).

[@darthalbion2532]

yea ER just shouldnt exist. i think skill should determine the outcome of the fight, but in any non russian plane no matter how good you are you cant win at bvr against a r27er, it forces everyone to stick to the ground. imo they could at this point basically add aim120 to usa without russia getting any new stuff and it would be fair with how good russian missiles are

[@areyou0k98]

Yeah im watching people barely do anything and my aim 7m misses, while get a r-27 fired at you and that's it game over.

[@TRtraybloxeey]

“these missiles will serve you really well” the 6 teamkills I’ve got from R-73s going for an ally instead of an enemy:

[@Aidan-fw1xr]

Hands down the most busted plane to date. More so than the F-14 when it first came out, it was very easy to notch F-14 phoenix’s especially once people figured out to fly low.

[@Stanczyk996]

Its the same with 27ER's. Just dont become moron whos going high. Use how WT works and hug the ground

[@Aidan-fw1xr]

@@Stanczyk996 then get immediately clapped by the SU-27s other loadouts, if you don’t die, you’re almost forced to climb even a little just to dogfight

[@r.p5380]

@@Aidan-fw1xrYou have aim9m just be a rat and launch on idiots and collect free sl

[@machinech183]

What were Gaijin thinking? Easy. They're salivating over the GE sales as people flock to whatever is the most meta or slightly more powerful then its current peers. Then, in a patch or two, they'll do it again for another tree/nation, rinse and repeat. Gaijin's definition of balance. No vehicle they won't bastardize, nerf, or tweak to be unrealistic while citing historical accuracy to achieve this. If you want realism hit up DCS. Otherwise enjoy the profit dance.

[@racealley5297]

Yesterday I was at 30K feet in the SMT, launched an ER at an F-15, and that F-15 got shot down. I then launched another ER at another F-15, but my first ER switched and still had enough energy to hit the secondary F-15. I then locked a third F-15 and final and the second ER killed that one instead. Shit's cracked.

[@belgianfried]

Literally Ace Combat

[@loicalex]

Absolutely spot on about russian missiles being too good so Gaijin is forced to downgrade their aircraft dogfight performances. Top tier is becoming more unrealistic each passing update. Ugly is the right word.

[@Retchmack]

There is a big misconception about active radar missiles being fire and forget, they require mid course updates to guide the missile to near the target. Only at pretty close ranges can they be fire and forget (depending on the missile probably ~10km especially with ground clutter; also meaning radar warning) The major advantage IRL is that there is no need for the launching plane to maintain a full track, meaning no warning of missile launch on most RWR, delaying indication of incoming missile for the target until the missile radar activates means very little time to evade/counter. The main problem is with the technological jump into 90s active missiles. You are looking at 50km+ ranges on planes with modern multi-track multi-engagement capable radars. This means more missiles that have large no escape zones, especially at high alt. Given they will be better than existing SARH the jump won't be as huge as some think. It might just push even more players to fly at treetop, so I just think they wont fit into the game very well. Active radar missiles will probably be added with a newer variant of the su-27 capable of the R-77, maybe with F-18s and something for Americans.

[@mavor101]

All of what you said actually doesn't matter. The only thing that is going to matter in War Thunder is when missiles are given seeker heads that can hit 50% or better accuracy against people that are hugging the deck. Until that point, it's going to continue to be the exact same missile spam hug the ground shitfest that it always has. Doesn't matter if your missiles are semi-active or whatever if they aren't going to have a chance to hit anyways.

[@Retchmack]

@@mavor101 That was my point. It wont change that much until they add modern seekers with near no min. altitude. But 90s+ missiles would also have missiles with 10km+ no escape radii and will break the game completely as it is.

[@mavor101]

@@Retchmack Right - but honestly having a large no escape radii is much less impactful than the ability to hit a min altitude target. Of course, having both will result in people getting slaughtered until they change their tactics to the BVR tactics we actually see in RL. I honestly don't understand what the USSR and the USA were thinking with their cold war missiles if they had zero hope of hitting a target flying near the ground. Why even bother carrying sparrows and such when you can't hit a pilot that is aware? USSR's RL focus on dogfighting and short range was much more sane - perhaps they realized early that no one was going to be scoring any kills at altitude anyways so might as well optimize for dogfights and IR missiles that actually have a prayer of hitting.

[@Rumoleble]

The su27 is not a plane it is a whole missile factory with an engine and wings

[@thatoneguy1741]

The Su27 was designed with the Russian doctrine of super maneuverability in mind, just because it’s big, doesn’t mean it’s a brick, this can be clearly seen

[@FallenPhoenix86]

While it's true this particular Flanker can't carry the R77, are we really sure that's going to stop them? The Snail bends historical accuracy whenever it suits them... recent case in point Skyflash on the Gripen... it can technically carry them in real life, but it can't actually fire them.

[@hypersonichobo4263]

To be fair, the times we see Russian jets being Uber agile is at airshows where they are running around with no weapons in 1/3 fuel and can throw those airframes around. You throw ten missiles and a real fuel load out and yah, it's gonna suck.

[@Unknown-xf9kw]

Once u spam all ur missiles and use up most of ur fuel, ur gonna be almost as maneuverable as airshow jets

[@jaek__]

except when you are low on fuel, have 0 weapons et cetera. your plane handles like it's moving through honey or some shit, the FM literally feels unfinished its absurd

[@bibbr4137]

it doesnt matter whether the flanker has full, half or light payload, it will pull like a monster because of its massive wing loading. what it will struggle in is its ability to regain speed, even at low fuel the flanker is comparatively sluggish at that. the f 15 has similar characteristics to that, but f 16 and mig 29 will really suffer with full payload

[@mavor101]

@@bibbr4137 Yea this is why you need to come into a merge at the right speed and pray for a good one-circle result. After that, most planes are going to crush you.

[@BikZom]

even early amrams will have trouble beating platforms launching 27ER wtf gajin thought adding them to the game in the first place and not adding aim-120A or B

[@Clem76228]

In simu he remains formidable with his 10 missiles and he can also dogfight. The problem for RB players is that they shoot turns at 11/12g in a flash of the mouse and then say "this plane is losing too much energy..."🙄

[@regn97]

4:05 "the radar is pretty good" as you miss 2 rockets :D also aim9m is much better, the r27er is amazing if the radar works as it should, i understand if someone is flying low to the ground but sometimes the radar shits itself when a target just flies straight up in the air... why ? am i missing something ?

[@CounterfeitDuck]

I never saw THAT ammount of videos about balance issues when F-14 was coming out. If this is not bias then what is?

[@vavord5181]

F14 was just another plane. It really was stronger than any other plane, but many nations had their respective adversaries for the Tomcat (MiG-23MLD, Mirage2000, British Phantoms, etc). And the Tomcat, as I said, was just another plane: all it had 4 AIM9H (which in the game are just carbon copy of AIM9G), 4 AIM7F (which were in the game before the F14, and many nations either got same missiles or had their own counterparts) and some strong flight performance.

[@CounterfeitDuck]

@@vavord5181 You forget one more thing about F-14 that any other nation doesn't have answer ot TILL NOW - Phoenix. Gaijin had to nerf it to ground for balance and it took half a year of nerfs to do so. Even when F-16 came out 1,5 years later F-14 still had better win rate.

[@SeekerHead]

You must’ve simply never been a subscriber when F14 was coming out, which makes commenting about it kind of crazy. I dug them up for you, took about 10 seconds: Thoughts On the F-14 Tomcat In War Thunder... | War Thunder (dev server) kzbin.info/www/bejne/rWLPY2l-n7OYa5o Reading Dumb Comments About The F-14... | War Thunder kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z5_UeZRsetJlm9U

[@CounterfeitDuck]

@@SeekerHead Yes, this is the first video from this channel I've seen, but I saw like 5 videos on this topic back to back. Maybe that just algorithms or F-14 release balance really wasn't as hot of a topic as Su-27 now. Maybe people bare more when US is stomping the air than other teck trees which resulted in less attention in form of less videos or/and less views on that videos. I never talked about anyone in particular in this comment section talking about bias.

[@SeekerHead]

Idk I saw a lot of backlash against the F14, the pendulum swings every once in a while and the other side kicks and screams and one defends it. If you’re truly non biased and just want the game to be good you’ll complain all of the time lol

[@Thiccron]

Great video on the Eagle Driver, like the scripted format 👍🏻

[@John-Johnsonreal]

personally like the 6 73/4 er 27er loadout (or 4 73, 2 et, 4 er) over the 4 73/6 er, 6 ers just seem like way too many to use in one game unless its a clutch scenario

[@saltysteel3996]

All the F15s in game are fake. Frankenstein jet. It had flares making it the MSIP version, so it is missing the upgraded radar and more power engines. Should also have AMRAAMs.

[@exmachina1405]

Even worse for the F15J cause that IS an F15C and should have all the MSIP stuff regardless including radar and amraams

[@kenoby2330]

You do realize if AMRAAM is added R77 is added too gaijin said they will add fox 3s to every nation same patch Also if you think fox 3 aren't massive advantage over SARH your dumb

[@Clem76228]

Yes, they should... As the 2000-5F should have its Mica. But for now, Gaijin have postponed the arrival of the fox 3 and given the look of the current games, it's not a bad choice.

[@TrippooDew338]

It's super fun trying to farm the American tree with the F4s now lol. Every other missile I get hit with is from a su27

[@manusavior4120]

let me remind you guys why the R-27ER is in the game. Its in the game cause at launch they removed the R-73 from the Mig-29, cause people were complaining alot, and the Mig-29 with the R-60s and the regular R-27s was horrible

[@SeekerHead]

Yes but it also still had a terrible flight model and R27Rs were not finished missiles. The flight model was buffed before receiving ERs, and the R27R has received a series of buffs that make it objectively superior to the sparrow in all ways except range and slightly worse acceleration. If they would’ve just lead with that, the MiG29 would’ve been fine with just R27R.

[@manusavior4120]

@@SeekerHead i thin the ER was just in game to counter the superiority US teams had with the F-14B spamming phoenixes at high alt and how there was no counter to that, but right now, at least in EU severs everyone fly as close to the ground as possible. Can't wait to see if Fox 3 introduction changes the meta again, whenever that happens

[@rowdyace5719]

We’re you there when the mig29 released? Because I was, and it dominated top tier even without the r73. The reason why everyone complained about it having the r73 on the dev server was because nobody else had missiles that were similar, a mig 29 carrying 6 r73s with its hmd would be going against F-14s that didn’t even have all aspect missiles and f16s that only have 9ls, even with just r60s and r27s it was still the best top tier aircraft during that update

[@manusavior4120]

i was there mate, and i dont know what server you play in about but in EU it was not dominating at all@@rowdyace5719

[@manusavior4120]

i was there when the meta was the hawker hunter F1 (i was playing the mig 17), i was there when the Mig-19 released and was dominating, i was there when the mig 21 released, when the mig 21 smt was dominating etc@@rowdyace5719

[@IRLFlightSim]

They could do this very smartly and add amraam only to f16C and mig29SMT so that each team can only carry 2 max fox3 per aircraft although people would throw a fit until the flanker S late comes and the F15C comes with their respective fox 3s it would be a great way to test out the new fox3 meta it would also explain why they denied creating 12.7 to keep them all at the same BR but different levels of weaponry

[@SeekerHead]

The F16 can carry 6 AIM120

[@unclenels7742]

@@SeekerHead As well as the 6 r77 on the Su-27SM:)

[@thuhmonty]

If they add fox-3’s without adding another flanker, they can add the R-27EA to the current su-27. The fox-3 variant of the R-27. Will just be fine without adding R-77

[@casematecardinal]

Why? Unless they add the 120c which they won't it'll just be the er scourge and the Phoenix scourge at the same time. Russia doesn't need another bullshit advantage. The field needs to evened not stacked further

[@belgianfried]

​@@casematecardinal120C??? 120A is fine, lord

[@Toblerone-j1t]

​@@belgianfriednot with r27ea

[@sumchipstarchy5469]

@@casematecardinalyea the Russian missiles are basically uncontested and they have been for an entire fucking year

[@fimaha0741]

8:15 bro was pissed 😂

[@Winterman1337]

im having a great time facing this and F-15s in my shitty british phantom

[@EpicDragonfall]

After spading both the su 27 and f15, I still prefer the f16c over both

[@Okoden2]

I have a question, I made a video on me unlocking this plane, and it immediately was copyright struck because I used an 80yo song, now I only have a little over 600 subs and don't make money, but I'm not sure what I should do. Should I remove the video and change the music or just leave it?

[@SeekerHead]

You should be able to leave it then

[@Okoden2]

@SeekerHead alright, I appreciate it

[@Thebaconmurderer]

Ah, yes, carrying 6 R27ERs, 4 R-73s, and a full loadout of fuel will most indefinitely reduce the performance.

[@mavor101]

R27ET is probably even better than the ERs, especially in a mixed loadout. There are so many situations that it can just snipe people from 10km out because they don't realize the reach.

[@KaguyasBeat]

With this philosophy on here you gotta wonder how the Actives will be on their airframes.

[@josephthebig2889]

The Mig29 SMT has ability for 6 R73s and in my opinion is nearly always top 3 players SMT havent seen a single Su27 player except for myself get number 1 on the team its always SMT or the other F16s or JAS.... Update both the F15 and Su27s stock grind is absolutely terrible and for everyone including myself who grind for the Su27 feels like they desrved the best of the best, F15 not too sure but i must say that it only having AIM7Ms and 9Ms must feel pretty bad after all of that gridning only to see its the exact same aircraft for American Top tier but different flight performance and an extra 2 missiles....

[@vavord5181]

F15 is Literally F4E with PD radar, AIM9M, and better flight performance. Absolute gameplay equivalent.

[@mavor101]

Are you living in an alternate dimension? I rarely see people playing the SMT, and if they do, especially if they are on the other team, I just destroy them in the one turn with the su-27. SMT flight model is so shit it's unbelievable.

[@josephthebig2889]

@@mavor101 sent that over one month ago being like 3 days after release and no one had it when i sent it so maybe learn to read? SMT has a far superior radar in everyway and can ez track SU27s and shoot them down even if the Su27 has far more missiles...

[@JustSomeDog]

i have the mirage 4000 and the missiles are underwhelming they do not preform good at all....

[@LolLol-gv9hd]

Im a little unorthodox when it comes to the Su-27, i use 4xR-73, 2xR-27ET and 4xR-27ER

[@Skoodelly]

I find it hilarious that a full team of su27s can now have 160 of the best missiles in the game (but thats somehow balanced because of average fm lmao)

[@mavor101]

Best missile in the game, but still has 0% chance of hitting non-retards that are low to the ground.

[@regn97]

just fly low to the ground and u will be fine, the radar really hates the ground

[@krzysztof3813]

Grippen smokes this things easily lol

[@malithaw]

In your dreams probably

[@frosty8183]

You say that until you eat a 27ER or r73 to the face

[@normallymute0131]

Yep. It beats it in every way except maybe range and missile count. And if the grippen gets within dogfighting range it’s game over for the Su

[@normallymute0131]

@@frosty8183640countermeasuressayswhat?

[@poisonis165]

I hope they rework air rb if they add amraams next update otherwise the spam is going to be aids

[@Cheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese]

Ive thrown this plane into the ground too much, it compresses insanely hard

[@adrianstachowski9422]

Amraam introduction will make su27 not good at everything so expect su30 to be added with amraam :P

[@hanz2035]

I hate this nerfing of historical capabilities, if the game isnt ready for it, dont add it.

[@Gyyghhhhjjjkk]

The funniest thing is that they think buffing f15 flight model fucking again would fox the problem which is just beyond me. They need to fix the fucking sparrows and wing rip issues f15 somehow still have.

[@AlmightyDude420]

They should add Aim-120A and B to the F-16C as it is right now and lower the BR of the F-15A to 12.0, so they can balance out USSR by improving the Flanker's flight performance. I mean FFS, *the F-15A is nearly 10 years older than the Flanker.* F-16C is the only real modern plane for the US, next to the F-14B, which could still get Aim-9Ms at its current BR of 12.0. And when they add the F-15C and Gripen C, they should give them the Aim-120Cs as well as giving Su-27 and MiG-29SMT the R-77, and have their BR at something like 12.7. If you disagree with 12.0s carrying Aim-9M, then have them at 12.3, but move everything I said up a notch and have the modern Fox-3 carrying F-15Cs, Flankers and Fulcrums at 13.0 What I said earlier would be historically accurate as well, considering that in real life, the Aim-120A came out before the R-77, Aim-120B at the same time as it, whilst the Aim-120C came out right after it. There were also multiple upgrades and variants of the C. The later R-77-1 variant entered service at the same time as the Aim-120D, but for now we don't need to think about it

[@Brzzzyexe]

i love how russia beats the us in bvr for some apparent reason

[@seraphhunter9676]

It can dog fight, not as well as it should but it can.

[@WonkOfWonkyness]

if only they treated my boi the f-15 this way...

[@soulrippers5652]

no dogfight potential? Bro those misisles pull 90 degrees and kill everything xD you have video on that :P

[@zenki_ls400]

in RB with a full missile load i am yet to have a game where i run out of missiles with the SU-27 an ace game i got i still had enough missiles to last a while but the game ended the SU-27 is a jet that can stay in the game for a long time and not worry about fuel or missiles the radar is somewhat of a downgrade over the SMT but that doesnt matter when we might be looking at something like a SU-27SM or god forbid SU-30 sometime early next year with R-77s and ive been playing alot of sim with it although i do get destroyed by F-16s and Gripens because the RWR is alot worse and radar is a bit lacking theres multiple times where i get into a dogfight with a F-15 and absolutely wipe them away in a merge because they lack that HMD and thrust vectoring R-73 its one of my favorite planes to play now the only thing i wish it didnt have was that awful SPO-15 and N001 radar with it next variant it will probably get the SPO-150 and Zhuk radar like the SMT has.....

[@mavor101]

You should be less frugal with your missiles then. Especially the ERs, just use them to punish retards at longer range or force defensive maneuvers. Holding missiles on the su-27 for optimal launch parameters is why you are getting aces with missiles remaining.

[@shyg4661]

Did they remove the R27ERs?

[@hresvelgr7193]

Honestly it's absolute bullshit that the AIM-7P isn't in the game yet. It's a Sparrow with a better version of the ERs datalink. At the very least give us the MH which is an improvement over the M

[@davidbalogun7569]

They should've given western planes the AIM 120 instead of trying to balance a plane whos whole gimmick is maneuverability by making it fly like a school bus

[@kyoMcMushy]

The aim-120 will never be added unless the r-77 is added alongside it. People don’t understand just how BIG of an advantage fox-3s against sarh is. Also the f15a never had the AMRAAMS.

[@fireraid2336]

​@@kyoMcMushy the current version can. All they need to do is change the radar to APG-63 PSP.

[@kyoMcMushy]

@@fireraid2336 yes be the f15a we have in game isn’t a true f15a, but rather an upgraded one. Gaijin has already artificially buffed the f15a more than it already should lmao

[@Toblerone-j1t]

​@@kyoMcMushythey had to since its a decade older than the flanker

[@einar8019]

sweden should get the JA 37D(IR-OTIS) with the S225XR

[@rojeeagle6927]

Its simple they dont think. I dont think they ever did

[@mafia7378]

People dont understand that the company is setting up the top tier to missiles vs missile like it is in real life, eventually in time the game will have insane missiles and modern jets, people who want dog fights go play lower br.

[@nicholasleon7819]

i’m not an aviation history guy but through a lifetime of pentagon propaganda i KNOW the US wasn’t trailing the USSR in missile tech. Is there a missile that US planes aren’t getting that is better than the R-27ER and R-73?

[@aether-gaming.]

the R-27ER is roughly contemporary to the AIM-120A/B, which had slightly better kinematics to the late AIM-7s and, of course, was active-seeker the R-73 wasn’t matched until the AIM-9X entered service though

[@nicholasleon7819]

@@aether-gaming. thank you very much!

[@exmachina1405]

We really should have the AIM7MH or the AIM7P by now, but thanks to gaijin royally screwing the R27T when it first came out they had to add the R27ER to compensate

[@Mr.Crow1984]

I love how poeple complain about this thing not being manuvrable, like bor is the only drawback it has. This plane is eatimg through enemy teams

[@ThePsychotic91]

Why be surprised if they add a gripen next patch with no difference. Gaijin does it all the time.

[@bobtheshark4789]

Wish he had separate modes like planes had a cas model with objective or historical battles mig29 su27 vs f16 f15 instead we just got a lame ass 16v16 missile thunder

[@christopherchartier3017]

Imagine if they modeled the missile success rates for missiles… the sparrow and R530D would clap the R-27

[@krylassa]

Cope

[@S4lty_D0g]

⁠@@krylassa How is it cope if he’s right?

[@normallymute0131]

@@krylassacope failing to launch 2 R-27s

[@ferrous3262]

this is just dumb how can gain even model success rates for missiles

[@christopherchartier3017]

@@ferrous3262 Let’s say the success rate is 10% (just throwing numbers out). That means there’s a 90% chance that the missile fails to launch properly or track

[@xXRapToRiXxGamer]

when will the next update (amraams) come? this year?

[@ferrous3262]

march

[@ardap3966]

In Russian dev stream they actually said they need to add fox3 capable planes to every nation before releasing the missiles themselves so they might add an r77 capable flanker. Other than that, it would be interesting to see the flanker stuck with r27s and mig29smt getting r77s

[@delirious3911]

Flanker 12.7 which would be su-27sm could have the R-77-1(export varient) as the J-11 im pretty sure has R-77-1. The su-27 we have rn it wont be able to have the radar/avionics to use the R-77( pretty sure you already know that)

[@kyoMcMushy]

@@delirious3911I think the br max should be 13.0 rn. The current 12.3 planes should be 12.7, and when arh is added, they go 13.0

[@delirious3911]

@@kyoMcMushy eventually when 12.7 comes out, 11.3 shouldn't be able to get in those matches. I doubt they push it to 13.0 cuz knowing gaijin they love BR compression,

[@casematecardinal]

Thats bullshit. The r77 way outperforms the 120b in every way except tracking and I guarantee you won't be able to tell the difference in game because it's not like they model the sparrow with having good tracking either.

[@casematecardinal]

@@delirious3911 the su27 in game cant even mount r77s

[@GideonBowlesProductions]

This is the first I’m hearing about anyone complain about the SU 27 radar I have been sick recently and so I’ve been at home and I played for over 24 hours straight of the SU 27 I have almost 150 kills with the R 27er and have never struggled with the radar, considering how I normally only play the US I have never had so much fun and been this blatantly able to destroy games. The F15, between your radar immediately losing lock the second you fire your missile to the missile just deciding to go straight down. To not being able to BVR with anybody because r 27 will smack you out of nowhere, and even in the event you break their lock, which is extremely difficult they will just immediately lock you again the second you try to either burn away, or go in to be offensive. The F-15 is ass, it is a quite decent dogfighter Yes, the Mmmm is nice and it has good flares, but the SU 27 is still phenomenal, and by far the best jet in the game. With the fastest missile that pulls extremely hard, that is the only missile with data link…… why can we not get an aim 7 with data link? We absolutely should’ve had one multiple patches ago. And for everyone talking about the Aim120 being overpowered and game breaking, they are as fast as the aim7, turn about the same and are easy to chaff as the radar. Would it be overpowered in semi close ranges? Yes, possibly, and the only reason would be, you would be forcing them to go offensive, allowing you to turn away and run. If you fire the aim 120 and then continue to close in, you literally lose all benefits, And the r77 is comparable that in age, and in performance to the late aim120, in which case the aim 120 is a significantly better missile. But sticking with a model or the ear early 120, it would absolutely be comparable.

[@musti3853]

you still got beef with the Aussie?

[@Beans64209]

Me and my friend did duels yesterday and he was in the su27 and has been playing for 2x as long as me but when we put the f14B (of which I was in) and the su27 against eachother I won 3/5 dogfights granted the su27 was stock and my f14B is spaded but I really don’t think the f14 should be beating the su27 in any situation (we also didn’t use any missiles he probably would have won with the r73’s and you would have them in a real match but we didn’t use them)

[@missingthe80s58]

Lifting airframe. The whole body of the aircraft is a giant wing. Drop to 300 knots, lower combat flaps and pull 4-4.6G all day long. Let me say that I don't play ARB. Strictly Sim. I regularly turn inside the turns of everyone else. Stable gun platform too makes getting the gun on target super easy. This is historically correct. Tomcat pilots regularly out turned all other jets. Go watch Mooch videos, he describes dumping excess fuel weight to trim up the F-14 for mock dogfights and beating them. The jet can really turn if done right.

[@casematecardinal]

@@missingthe80s58 even the f15? Because the f15 can do that too and it has a better twr from which to do it.

[@Clem76228]

irl the F14 is better than the SU27 in dogfight. We have to wait for the next versions of the SU27 with thrust vectoring and there will be changes.

[@powerkingez9682]

they litterly coud have added all the new planes whit less missiles, like why woud you have any plane have 10 missiles, they coud have given them 6 or 8 and everything woud still be fine

[@bibbr4137]

irl flanker flies with regularly flies with ten, its almost standard

[@thatoneguy1741]

Standard loadout

[@Ben-hx4ps]

Gaijin needs to revert the su27 nerf, it jusy struggles with 1v1 dogfights guns only, the f15 has a fast turn speed at low speeds than the su27 which has more powerful engines, yes its massive i know, but my point is that a jet with more powerful engines that drains speed so fast in turns its ridiculous

[@SeekerHead]

The F15s thrust:weight ratio is higher than the su27, raw engine power is meaningless if weight isnt also taken into account.

[@arandomperson_e]

Sure. But you get the best missiles. Losing un a dogfight while having r73 (40g+tv) is a big skill issue

[@Clem76228]

@@arandomperson_e 🤣🤣Les R73 les meilleurs missiles mdr... Ils mangent les flrr beaucoup plus que les 9m car sur ça aussi ils ont été nerf et eux on peut les voir partir avec leur fumée. Les 40g au final ça fait pas tout si tu as plus de facilité à les esquiver que les 9m, après si tu sais pas esquiver des R73 t'as un problème de compétence je pense. 😉

[@arandomperson_e]

@@Clem76228 le principe d’un r73 c’est de le lancer a courte portée derrière donc si tu le lance a 4km de coté c’est normal que sa marche pas. Dans ce cas ils sont simple a esquiver. Le 9m est littéralement pas tellement dur a esquiver, le manque de fumée est compensé par le losange rouge. Il suffit de déployer des contre mesures et de changer de trajectoire, hop c’est fini

[@swisstraeng]

You're wondering why russian jets are bad at dogfighting but in reality they are no better than NATO counterparts. If you play DCS:World you would realize that both the Su-27 and F-15 are about equal in a dogfight, with the F-16 being extremely dangerous to everyone else. If anything the "best" dogfighter would be the eurofighter typhoon, or potentially fighters with thrust vectoring such as the F-22 raptor or Su-57. The only reason dogfights are still a thing in war thunder is because war thunder nerfs missiles at low altitudes by making them hit the ground, when modern seeker heads don't care. This is about the only thing that still makes R-27ER somewhat fair. I do not understand why Gaijin did not give the Aim-7MH already, with better flight trajectories. If anything the current meta remains the F-16C with 6xaim-9M loadout, because it's what performs best in dogfights currently while the aim-9m is stealthier than the R73.

[@irohnick]

>claims to want balance >wants the russian plane to carry shittier missiles >somehow perfectly ok with the MiG-29 carrying R-60s instead of R-73s at 12.3 >doesnt complain about AIM-9M being completely invisible

[@Toblerone-j1t]

Are you blind? There is a giant red fucking Diamond making it impossible to miss

[@arandomperson_e]

If you can’t dodge an aim9m thats a big skill issue ngl

[@irohnick]

@@arandomperson_e my nigga in christ, I play simulator battles. invisible missiles are: YOU GUESSED IT: *FUCKING INVISIBLE*

[@Clem76228]

@@arandomperson_e Fait pas genre... Ce missile est une plaie a esquiver car oui on le voit pas partir surtout en simu, après si tu joues qu'en RB alors oui c'est plus simple, arpès le "skill" en réaliste ça n'existe plus depuis longtemps en top tier. 😂🙄

[@HugoGrether-c7o]

It is time to play DCS

[@malithaw]

Now US mains how annoying it is to face against F14s spamming phonexes.

[@ploinefost9468]

Never died to a single phoenix, its worst top tier missle. All who died by it even once should leave top tier lmao

[@normallymute0131]

Bro, only way you’re getting smacked by a Phoenix is if you aren’t paying attention and afk climbing.

[@malithaw]

Neither have I, what I meant was the constant barrage of pheonixes that you have to dodge within the first few minutes of the game. It's just annoying.

[@normallymute0131]

@@malithaw yeah, this is different though. These can kill. They can actually turn more than 10 degrees to hit and are IRCCM. With phoenixes, you could go cold on the radar for a few seconds, dump 1-2 chaff and boom, no more Phoenix problems.

[@sumchipstarchy5469]

Yea it’s extremely easy to dodge phonexes have never died once to to them meanwhile it dosnt matter if your high or low or fast or slow the r27 is way too broken

[@nebulaswirl]

As a USSR main I am very sad that they nerfed the Su-27

[@fqeagles21]

Oh poor Russian main, meanwhile US main not having Spall liners and Bad F15

[@kevl0d922]

Boo hoo

[@collander7766]

As someone who dabbles in pretty much every nation, I’m extremely happy. What fantasy world were you living in lmao

[@spartanx9293]

Personally I'm more confused by the nerf the issue wasn't the maneuverability it was the missle load out getting into some actual dog fights with it would actually be fun

[@GeneralLudwigSteiner]

They have spall liners??? @@fqeagles21

[@guitarlover42]

I feel they have over thought it, why not just nerf the ER?

[@CPUfy]

Cant this flanker use the r27ea?

[@Loubie2005]

Yeah

[@CPUfy]

Idk why everyone is convinced they must add the r77 when the 27ea exists

[@shepardpolska]

Gimme the R-27EP

[@collander7766]

@@CPUfy well it never existed so that’s probably why lmao. It was only ever prototyped, and even that claim is dubious at best.

[@CPUfy]

Oh lol

[@dilldoe1991]

Can you guys stop making videos on the same planes at the same time? Idk if y’all are doing it on purpose but goddamn some variety between the cc’s I watch would be nice. (Joob, Defyn, Seek)

[@dilldoe1991]

@PhoBos_____ikr and it’s annoying like they would legitimately get more views too bc who’s gonna watch a vid on a plane from one of them then immediately watch the other on the same plane

[@fefe8504]

but its radar is shit, ive seen people complain that it loses track after a drop of chaff, and now that i have it i agree

[@SeekerHead]

All radars are worse this update it seems

[@arandomperson_e]

All radars are messed up since this update idk what gaijin is doing, missiles are randomly crashing into the ground for no reason, not only for russia

[@petpet7860]

the r27 doesnt have data link, it's just the seeker in the missile will stay active for a much longer time than any other missile so it can wait for radar lock info to return

[@LeAoZiM024]

In the missile statcard, it literally says it has datalink in its guidance.

[@bappojappo-_-3986]

Yeah no, it’s literally data link

[@colRobinOlds]

Bro is using the same skin as Joob

[@SirCabooseCCCP]

I think people forget just how deadly the ability to cobra with 4 R-73s is, you can merge with any jet, pull a cobra to get the angles needed then launch an R-73, wont work every single time, but i find is more relible then dogfighting.

[@chaos.....]

i think people forget about preflare

[@SirCabooseCCCP]

@@chaos..... They do indeed, since like no one does it

[@neCron1015]

My guess is that the Eurofighter might come with the next update just like they released the GDR-Mig-29 after the Soviet one. Eurofighter and/or F4F-ICE might the the only logical next options for Germany. Theres not much left to add. Especially for Germany my guess is that we might see the end of the line within the next year as I said, Theres not much left to add for that nation.

[@neCron1015]

And Eurofighter might come to UK and Italy in form of spanish subtree. Just like the South African Gripen for UK.

[@デヴィン]

I expect the ICE and then everyone else receives the AMRAAM, R77, PL-12

[@jimmyjazzwt]

Gaijin ... thinking... LOL

[@phantom-ranger7510]

does chaff help in this br

[@lw.c802]

the amount of crying baby US main down here is wild

[@nicolaspeigne1429]

US mains experiencing what it's like to be the underdog in top tier meta, it seems some of them will need psychological help.

[@the_undisputed_king_5395]

Well, considering the US and quite frankly basically every other country sucks in top tier ground compared to Russia (lmao at T-90M and T-80BVM), top tier air was about the only top tier Russia didn’t dominate, so sorry for other countries actually wanting to be the best at something

[@nicolaspeigne1429]

@@the_undisputed_king_5395 Germany and Sweden are up there in ground as i experienced. And as "other country" enjoyer myself, i was talking about US mains for a reason.

[@the_undisputed_king_5395]

@@nicolaspeigne1429 Sweden was the only decent top tier nation other than Russia before the T-90M was added, now it’s just Russia because they have a tank significantly harder to kill than any other tank. 2 of them honestly counting the BVM, but the T-90M is absurd. And I’d point out the only real underdog country in top tier air as of late has been the UK. Sweden was at least playable, China has pretty good IR missiles and arguably the best 12.0 F-16, Italy has a F-16 and a plane with AIM-9Ms, Japan has a F-16, Israel has multiple F-16s and the very good python missiles, Germany now has the best MiG 29 in the game, etc. Most countries weren’t suffering in air RB, and half of the stuff US mains got, other countries got as well (as is true with the F-15 as well). Russia has by no means been bad in top tier at all recently and they have easily the best radar missile in game (which can barely hit anything irl but you can’t tell gaijin that)

[@nicolaspeigne1429]

@@the_undisputed_king_5395 you know that Sweden, Germany and the UK also have spall liners on their top tier tanks with the T90M ?

[@the_undisputed_king_5395]

@@nicolaspeigne1429 it’s not just the spall liners, or I wouldn’t have mentioned the BVM. Oh, and yeah most NATO tanks going back to the 1980s should have some form of them lol. The M60s should even have them.

[@MarkDrisch]

HARD disagree. The most handheld and easy to do well in plane in the game goes to the F-16C. BY FAR. The radar on this Su-27 is a sad joke as it struggles to acquire locks, the ACM locks onto chaff, and tracking gets shaken by chaff as well... . This is a PD radar. When flying this thing, the challenges in order of difficulty go like this: 1. Fighting your radar with clunky controls and lagged inputs, 2. team mates getting to targets as your missiles are in the air, 3. actual enemies. So yeah, you can take up to 6 of the best radar missiles in the game, but your radar is so bad, you're basically no better off than a SMT with good radar and only 2 of the same missiles. You're slow as balls, even though you have more thrust than 2 F-16Cs. Your IR missiles aren't nearly as meta as 9Ms, and you have very few CM compared to other 12.3s...

[@areyou0k98]

Yikes take

[@GideonBowlesProductions]

I mean, I’m not claiming that you suck at the game but everybody else including me loves the SU 27 radar, in the couple of days I’ve been playing which I was sick and I played for over 24 hours straight. I have over 150 kills with the R 27 ER. I have not had a single person be able to notch my radar. Try the F15 its radar is horrible. Between literally immediately losing locks and having your missiles blow up or having your missile go off the rail and pitch straight down. The SU 27 is amazing.

[@areyou0k98]

@@GideonBowlesProductions yeah no surprised cracked weapon set of 10 missiles lmao.

[@exmachina1405]

​@@GideonBowlesProductionshonestly the F15 radar isn't even that bad, the problems I've had I can more or less fully blame the AIM7M on

[@krustykrabkk7742]

is it time for the python 4? 🤨

[@kyoMcMushy]

Not until the 9x and r73m is added

[@krustykrabkk7742]

@@kyoMcMushy but those are like way better

[@ploinefost9468]

No one said 120 gonna be next patch. Bvvd said may be next, but most likely second patch of 2024. Also rly, what is this cope on amraams, snail gonna give u amraam a or b who is just aim7 with arh seeker and u still will have to evade r27er like crazy but as bonus ussr/ru will get a fucking r77 who head ahead of amraam a and b

[@vavord5181]

Now that's some _REAL_ predictions how Fox-3 gameplay gonna be. And I absolutely adore your point here, thinking myself that gayjew will either add early AMRAAMS which will perform like shit or introduce R77 in some fantasy way (like R27ER) being so fucking cracked compared to anything. Nowadays I'm so honestly wondered why gayjew makes such one-sided decisions, like they're trying to make a game a putin's cartoons with unstoppable russian vehicles stomping everything, or what?

[@kenoby2330]

​@@vavord5181dawg the 9M is more meta than r73, i flew su 27 today and r73s couldn't fucking track rear aspect

[@vavord5181]

@@kenoby2330 mmm, flew the day when patch dropped, something might've changed.

[@adrinside6025]

and f15 has only 4 useful missiles. Anyone that says aim 7 are competitive at top tier please stop consuming phentanyl

[@Kostimizasyon]

Hear me out buff the fm and add ecm to nerf flanker

[@blomgaming6480]

So the plane has the right flight characteristics so it's a problem?

[@bwhittv1446]

All I mostly care is the flight performances being realistic or somewhat “realistic”. I think it’s silly they introduce new jets and they’re suppressed/ underperforming. Then those who are bitchin’ the F-15 should get AIM-120s, the 15A never had it according to the USAF, if you actually did your research. Might have tested it, as the F-16 was the first to test the AIM-120, but 120s weren’t introduced until 1991. F-15A was introduced in 1976. American mains y’all need to politely quit bitchin’ when your stuff isn’t the best performing. Meanwhile few other nations are left out with anything capable, especially now. The F-15A is JUST a filler jet. You’ll get better versions in an update or two. F-16C still stupidly good and AIM-9Ms have an amazing IRCCM.

[@nymeric5833]

the f15a we have is the f15a msip (we know this because it has countermeasures), which can carry amraams, and did carry amraams.

[@ploinefost9468]

Just wait when its will be r77 vs aim120 A for even more "fun"

[@einar8019]

just give sweden and britian the S225XR it will be ballanced trust me😉

[@maximumvibe9355]

c gripen has hmd

[@othmanesalahddine9575]

That loadout is some massive bullshit

[@abtomat8249]

I’ll tell you exactly what happened : Su27 was added to the dev server with a good fm and a good loadout, while the F15 was pretty average or, dare I say, even a bit bad (and it rightfully needed a buff). From then, since Russia is no longer allowed to dominate in air RB (look at what happened to the MiG29s, they were nerfed to shit in order to make the F16s stand out), together with the fact that American mains are so keen on crying LOUD AS FUCK in every forum, su27 was nerfed beyond what’s reasonable and the F15 was buffed beyond whats reasonable. There might have been Russian bias in war thunder, but that was YEARS AGO : now there is just American bias.

[@abtomat8249]

For context, i main all the big threes. Usa has asbolutely NOTHING to cry about, literally NOTHING.

[@cosmicbass]

thousands still find reasons to somehow lol

[@Papadimitry]

I somewhat agree but plane with 10 the best missiles, hmd and good fm would be waaaaaay too much

[@Papadimitry]

The ground is literally opposite with russian getting bs features meanwhile US gets nothing new i dont even mention other countries

[@abtomat8249]

​@@Papadimitrytrue, thats why i said the F15 needed a buff. But to buff one and nerf the other... Yea, russian bias, sure

[@jurajokasa834]

F15 is all the way better prooved it in simulators for myself ....i eat SU-27s for dinner

[@unclenels7742]

Верим

[@mursac1959]

At this point, I'm frustrated enough that I want AIM-120s, and ONLY AIM-120s. The AIM-120A IS the counter to the R-27ER. Russia gets the kinetically better missile with the possibility of tricking an opponent, and the US gets the ability to fire and forget.

[@thatoneguy1741]

Don’t forget PL12s and MICAs will be in the mix as wel

[@kyoMcMushy]

The aim-120 will never be added unless the r-77 is added alongside it. People don’t understand just how BIG of an advantage fox-3s against sarh is. Also the f15a never had the AMRAAMS.

[@areyou0k98]

​@@kyoMcMushyearly amraams are easily dodgeable as the aim 7m is in game and people are dodging 7ms like nothing in game so no early amraam wouldnt be overpowered vs r27er.

[@GideonBowlesProductions]

@@kyoMcMushy the aim 120 early versions are slow un maneuverable And are extremely comparable trying to chaff as trying to chaff someone’s radar. The R 27 has a significantly longer range. Flies way faster pulls way harder. And if the 77 gets added and we don’t get a late version of the Aim120, then it is complete bullshit Russian bias. I don’t like saying Russian bias, but the R 77 came around by the time we had good aim 120s we are 77 should only get added once we have good Fox threes because that is what the R 77 is more comparable to.

[@kyoMcMushy]

@@GideonBowlesProductions gaijin themselves said that all nations will get ARH missiles at the same time, and for Russia that will be the r77.

[@averyphillap58]

I don't get the copium that the plane can't dogfight. It definitely can. People really underappreciate the low speed maneuverability of the plane in just maintaining nose authority with the flapperons and tailerons. People just need to get good really.

[@Oookkaa]

Gaijin not compressing the BRs further and adding planes only 1% of the playerbase wants challenge (impossible)