Seeking Truth From Facts: Alf & Steve Hsu - #68

[@gloriaharbin1131]

Great discussion all. Thank you! I’m a huge fan of Nathan’s nuanced thoughts and Liminal Phrames podcast.❤

[@barrywong4327]

I would like to make the following observations: 1. China is able to and will continue to outpace the US because their leadership is pragmatic and realistic. They make assessments continuously and make course corrections as needed. In contrast, in the US every policy is highly politicized. As a result, policy makers never admit their mistakes and always double-down on failed policies or kick the can down the road. 2. To view China as a communist country is entirely missing the point. Their leadership will deploy tools that would bring about the best results in their assessment, capitalist or Marxist be damned. 3. Fundamentally, China is a Confucius civilization. It will always emphasize on meritocracy, stability and the Confucius values over everything else. Its governance will evolve with time with little regard to the notions of democracy and freedom as defined by the west. Therefore to measure China against western metrics and values is also missing the point. I totally enjoyed the broadcast. Thank you!

[@Larkinchance]

The problem is that American products are made in China... When you out-source hi-tech products for assembly abroad, that labor market inherits the advanced technology by default. Wall St reaps short term profits at the expense of the cutting edge.... Companies that did not comply were threatened with a hostel take-over if they didn't out source. Just at a time when people need to consider college or re-educate, colleges and universities have become an upper class privilege or risk unforgivable debt in a changing economy. I am not an economist or even a professional but I can see how easy it is for politicians to take money from banks and corporations and then blame China. General Motors Corporation has out-sourced their truck division to Honduras. This wealthy corporation has found out that it is more profitable to put money on the street in the form of high interest credit cards than it is to make vehicles. This is the real problem... I have really enjoyed your talks, thank you.

[@COLLAPSE.of.US.ECONOMY]

After witnessing the successful launches of the Starliner and iPhone-16, China should have no worries for having an all out tech war with the US.

[@jingsongyang876]

wish Alf didn't constantly cut in, overall a good podcast very informative.

[@ajire.janora]

He needs to learn to stay quiet and let his guest talk

[@moreless2690]

There is another thing that the US and EU collective West have not talked about. China has been successful in lifting 800 million people out of poverty and improving living standards, surpassing any other country in history.

[@tokenjay]

Where can one find Alf’s podcast? I’ve looked on every platform for it and all “Seeking Truth from Facts” leads me back to these episodes on Steve’s site

[@Escape_The_Mundane]

You know who has truly been successful. It is USA. I am just beginning but I have been working long time already since I was teenager. It don't matter where you are in life. I have been so many places, if you have a goal, split that into tinier more achievable goals, til you get what you want. If you build it, they will come, like in the old baseball movie but for an actual successful business.

[@wuhui]

Singapore governance actually has been described as authoritarian since LKY by most. In any case Comparing Singapore and China is not applicable. A country the size of a dot on the map and less than 10m in population vs third largest country in the world in land mass and over 1.4b people. It’s like a home lawn vs entire forest ecosystem. This is coming from a half Singaporean.

[@keffinsg]

Then China must be stupid for sending a stream of officials to Singapore for 45 years? This is coming from a full blooded Singaporean.

[@qake2021]

👏👏👏 Chinese culture 👍👍👍

[@qake2021]

👌👌👌 🇨🇳🇨🇳🇨🇳 👍👍👍

[@Abbale]

@@qake2021+1000000

[@mistman5640]

Democracy in practice. I recommend anyone to serve as the treasure or any board member positions in your local parent teacher association. I consider this as democratic as it gets. Come back and tell me about your experience

[@jiaan100]

I tried to implement democracy when nine out of ten people agreed but I was told I can't because "that's gang rape"

[@mistman5640]

44:50 One major story not discussed is retirement age. China is about to raise its retirement age from 60 for men and 55 for women to 65. It was low for a long time when China had a low life expectancy as a poor country. Now Chinese life expectancy is higher than the US. This will impact employment and GDP.

[@georgesiew6203]

Steve gets a lot of things right but he is still missing some of the reality of China and the Sino-sphere. China is not really a communist country and the CCP is not really a communist party. It just borrows the iconography and language of the early soviets to wrap around its own Confucian ideas. The state and society is thoroughly Confucian. The personal values of the population are deeply Confucian. There is no way to get around that. If you read Xi's writings he is very much a staunch Confucian and that is his main difference to his predecessors who were much less devout. It is also why he is so popular. He is a devout Cardinal in the religion of the devout masses. Western Democracy is an unworkable idea in a Confucian society and among East Asian in general because of their particular behavioral tendencies. It is not that for 4000 years Chinese never thought about using a simple western democratic system of an all or nothing majority voting system to rule. The issue is that such a system will start to breakdown immediately and eventually devolve into civil war. If you study sociology/anthropology there are three broad types of human relationships in society, reciprocal, communal and dominant-submissive. East Asian societies are always overwhelmingly based on dominant-submissive relationships. This is because the society just simply doesn't work with the other two types of relationships. East Asians are too competitive for reciprocal (motivates too much escalating competition) or communal (motivates too much cheating) relationships to work. The dominant-submissive relationship is the only one that can keep the destructive social competition spiral at bay. So the culture has uniquely evolved to value only the dominant-submissive relationship but the adaptation that it has made on that is that it seeks out the most constructive dominant-submissive relationship it can (which is paternalism). Only in that context can you truly understand what Confucianism is and why it came about. In Confucianism, reciprocal and communal relationships are looked down upon as morally inferior. The only morally worthy relationships are benevolent dominant submissive relationships. Specifically the parent-child relationship (the most benevolent dominant submissive relationship you can think of) is looked upon as the model for all social relations. Confucianism essentially asks you to model all your social relationships in some way on the basis of the parent child relationship. So with government there is the overwhelming Confucian expectation that government will be paternal to individuals (good parents) and individuals will be submissive (loyal children) to the government. This is what socialism with Chinese characteristics is and is the basic social contract between the government and the people. This Confucian way of government and Confucian social contract is not in any way inferior to the Western way of government or their social contract. This is simply what works in China and that is what works in America. You can no more apply the Chinese system in the US as you can apply the US system in China. Both will be met with immediate breakdown and hostility if applied on the other.

[@SwazzerProductions]

"China is not really a communist country and the CCP is not really a communist party." China is a communist country and the CPC is absolutely a communist party. Communism is the vehicle by which the Chinese state develops China materially, Confucianism is the cultural backbone of Chinese. These two are not in contradiction.

[@georgesiew6203]

@@SwazzerProductions I never said Confucianism and Communism were in contradiction. What I am saying is they are the same thing. Whether we call it modern Confucianism or Socialism with Chinese characteristics we are talking about the same thing. The different names is an issue of labelling which turns out to be very misleading for the western public. The reason to point this out is to dispel the misleading notion that Communism was a western idea that was transplanted to China with no organic roots. The modern social organization in China is very organic and draws deeply (almost exclusively) from its own history and political traditions. The amount it draws from soviet communism is in reality very little and very trivial.

[@SwazzerProductions]

@@georgesiew6203 Confucianism and 'Socialism with Chinese characteristics' are completely different concepts. There is no doubt that they influence one another by way of synthesis but they are separate. Also Chinese don't care in the slightest what the Western public thinks Communism is and/or how it should be defined; the Chinese now control the discourse, not the other way around. It used to be the Soviets that controlled the discourse regarding Communism/Communist movement, now it is the Chinese by way of the CPC.

[@georgesiew6203]

@@SwazzerProductions I think you fundamentally misunderstand how Chinese people think. There is no social discourse on Communist ideology outside of the very top of the party. That language has no real connection to the rest of society and is only used by the very tippy top of the elite. The only values that the masses understand and relate to is Confucianism. No one really cares what the government calls itself. As long as the government plays by Confucian rules the masses will obey otherwise the masses will rebel. Where you might be a bit understandably confused is how and why Confucianism managed to be rebranded as Communism. The short explanation is that this was a legacy of the 100yrs of humiliation. Confucianism became the scapegoat of everything bad in that era and had to be given a complete change of face which it did through Communism.

[@hchoe6823]

The most irritating host ever! Your guest has plenty to say without your constant interjections of senseless strings of words and mouth noises!

[@PhongLe-od6fo]

Can you interview Peter Zeihan about his view on China? His thesis is that China's demographic collapse will make China irrelevant in about 10 years.

[@cabasadefogo9533]

Simply use common sense and you will know Peter is full of it. Even as the population ages. China’s urbanization rate is only 66% while USA is 80%, Japan is 92%. That is enormous number of ppl that will continue to move into the cities and become workers. Additionally China is comprised of 50% of world robotics addition to their industry. So productivity will continue to increase and need for human workers will continue to decrease.

[@PhongLe-od6fo]

@@cabasadefogo9533 Peter Zeihan's thesis is that demographics collapse leads to consumption collapse, not productivity collapse.

[@cabasadefogo9533]

@@PhongLe-od6fo and the Chinese economy is totally consumption based yea? Seriously ? 🤣

[@PhongLe-od6fo]

@@cabasadefogo9533 Maybe we should just wait for the Peter Zeihan interview. While waiting you can read up on macroeconomics.

[@keffinsg]

Unfortunately this is not a comedy show.

[@Po-village-chief]

steve is a smart guy but why the hangover about ideology? who cares what you call a system aa long as people like it and it works. how great is so called democracy working out for the west?