Seraphine VS Sona: Setting The Record Straight | League of Legends

[@VarsVerum]

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[@olmis6289]

Remember Vars the thing that pissed people off so hard which is still true is the theme of the champions themselves. It’s actually so stupid that they are both music champs. Seraphine’s Lore is totally shoehorned in and her ultimate skin was out day one. Just completely stole Sona’s entire identity from an artistic and theme perspective.

[@haroldsuarez7474]

People were too focused on hating that they forgot how broken a Seraphine-Sona duo can be.

[@venom_ross]

Genuinely one of the strongest bot lanes. If both build burn damage tanks get shredded whilst squishes get nuked by the initial hit

[@Kristofy1]

@@venom_ross not to mention the amount of sustain

[@luckas221a]

@@venom_ross especially now that Liandry's can stack with teammates!

[@venom_ross]

@@luckas221a You're joking. I feel for Tank players

[@nobushige33]

I always felt like this was something riot was going for intentionally, I mean a mute harpist and a singer? Of course they'd make a great team!

[@macchiotter2553]

"Sona was released on September 21, 2020" "Seraphine was released almost 10 years later on October 29, 2020." 2020 really did go on forever

[@rimu6204]

OMG I thought I was the only one who heard that

[@parisvassilakis9070]

Could have also called this: Setting the Record Straight

[@aphrow]

+1

[@parisvassilakis9070]

Oh shit, it happened!

[@byeguyssry]

Nice

[@callmeandoru2627]

For context, the video had a different title but Vars read this comment and changed the title to "Setting the Record Straight" Edit: I do not remember the original title however. Yall have to ask Vars himself.

[@LunaWayve]

What was it called before

[@acasualjhinmain8071]

My main issue with Seraphine is that she was supposed to be a musical MID laner. Instead, she's played more in support and even given more buffs for support. Rito didn't like pyke going mid so they just removed his entire champion and called it a day.

[@Bigfunnyhah]

I thought Seraphine was designed as a mid-laner who was also able to go support due to how her abilities were, and after day 1, pretty much nobody ever played her Mid again once they realized how good at support she was, and thus Rito pretty much scrapped mid-lane Sera for support Sera

[@Aaron-cs3xl]

Really she's best as an apc but the thing is they tried to design her kit like Orianna's where she's strong solo lane and needs items and levels to stay relevant. However they made her kit too dependent on having allies nearby since (similar to Nilah) they both get free stuff just for being together in lane. Her E is a great follow up tool to link CC, even from just a slow, her W is incredible with shields from her support, and her passive gives her free bonus damage for every nearby ally. The Sona comparison never made much sense to me when she's trying to accomplish more of the same things as Orianna than Sona.

[@recon_ik]

Good point, made a comment about how I think Sera does sort of over shadow Sona as a support, but idk why the hell it's even a discussion if she was supposed to be mid. They really just release some of these champs without knowing entirely where they're supposed to be. I think Akshan is sort of a good example too. He works all over but only cause he's just a counterpick that roams sort of like quinn.

[@kcStranger]

Seraphine is ~3% higher winrate as a bot-lane APC than as a support (12.18 global all ranks). That's not a complete argument of course (stats aren't everything), but I strongly believe this is just people being misled by her appearance into thinking she's a support, when she was designed to be--and is--an AP carry. I do think the enchanter-y elements of her kit are what lead to her being better bot-lane, where she can fully take advantage of her abilities, rather than mid.

[@gallyxinioch2102]

I feel like Seraphine is better support than mid since she can more easily get notes for her passive, just double cast Q and you outrange everyone except for Caitlyn. Granted, it doesnt do much on its own but you just (hopefully) hit the enemy with two Q's and maybe even a beat drop, that kind of poke adds up fast. Meanwhile on mid you get max 4 notes (+100 range) which means everyone can still trade with you. I remember shortly after her release they wanted her to stay mid so they changed her a lot almost every patch, but apart from reducing the damage from notes from allies they didnt change her passive, which is THE thing that makes her work better botside.

[@daltongibson1033]

Seraphine is to Sona as Lux is to Morgana; I'm very similar kits, but one is more mage oriented and the other is more support oriented. It's nowhere near as big of a problem as people like to act like it is; they just want an excuse to hate Seraphine.

[@Mr_Mistah]

As someone who plays both Sona and Seraphine, it's disappointing that people try so hard to pit these two against each other. Canonically I don't see why they would be enemies, and even in game their kits while they look similar have entirely different properties and purposes.

[@MrReaperHand]

@@Mr_Mistah Yeah, Seraphine is closer to karma and neeko that Sona. The music thing and having a 3 cast mechanic is the closest serphine has to sona. Q is neeko, w is karma with mantra and a heal, e is neeko and ult is more akin to a ramped up ahri. It doesn't stun and it extends on hit with ally or enemy. Also, she has two parts to casting. Extra damage on hit based on number of casts and allies nearby up to 4 spells, and every 3rd spell double casts. It just tiring hearing them be similar when they just aren't. The only two music champs in LoL and everyone shits on Seraphine for being Sona 2.0 when really it is just her lore that sucks, her kit is cool (she is also not a support but a mage with some weaker support capabilities) and she can have some easy time pushing lanes. I think she has a terrible voice acting personality (like a pre-madonna annoying valley girl crap) and her lore is stupid.

[@Pingas-eq6cl]

It's always okay to hate Seraphine🙏

[@fakousecondss]

Even league champs hate seraphine so hating her is as normal as breathing

[@Mr_Mistah]

@@fakousecondss touch grass

[@autisonm]

Cant fully remember the timing properly but Seraphine came out around a time where Sona was in a terrible spot before her mini-rework. Couple that with Seraphine's healing being better than it was now and there wasnt much of a reason to play Sona beyond loyalty. Glad Riot ended up making their differences more noticeable and balanced. I think ultimately a lot of anger from how terrible Sona was ended up being give the spark it needed to ignite.

[@kelmirosue3251]

Another thing that differentiates them is positioning. Sona is much more positioning dependent because of her auras while Seraphine isn't

[@VentingGragory]

I read somewhere that Riot was making Sona rework, but decided to make new champion instead.

[@Dingdong2730]

@@kelmirosue3251 Please dont come with copium trying to explain how Sona takes skill.

[@ericwolf9664]

@@Dingdong2730 so you're one of those vayne/kai'sa spotting deniers?

[@kelmirosue3251]

@@Dingdong2730 I said she takes more positional skill then Seraphine because she has to position herself to hit everyone with her aura's. And as someone who's in low elo, do you REALLY think they're gonna stick near you for your bonuses? No not really

[@acat5338]

The most underrated part of Sona is and has always been her passive. Power Chord on W or E is basically half an exhaust that is up every ~5 seconds in the late game assuming Sona is sequencing her spells correctly. You rarely use both parts of exhaust (slow and damage reduction) to its maximum effectiveness anyway, you're usually using it for one or the other. The fact that the video never even mentioned Sona's passive once also highlights how sleeper it is. Nobody really recognizes it because most people don't even know what it does, it doesn't help that the spell effect doesn't really stand out at all. Its literally the hardest part of Sona to learn if you want to play her to her maximum effectiveness, and is what separates good Sonas from bad ones.

[@AlryFireBlade]

As Sona Main I felt how I became much Stronger when I realized Q-Power Accord is mostly not the best Choice. These 30% Damage Reduction is insane. Many Enemys failed to kill me or my ADC, because they underestimated or even forgot about that. It is sad he never mentioned it, I mean look at the Gameplay, throwing a Q PowerAccord on a Ornn to deal about 5% more Damage, instead of reducing his by 30%.

[@doomkingraye7692]

@@AlryFireBlade Q power chord is almost always the best choice in early landing phase, you can easily chunck down shorter range supports until they can't engage n you anymore And you win because of that, as it's said in the video if the enemy team doesn't get enough of a gold lead by the time the mid to late starts sona gets completely out of control

[@AlryFireBlade]

@@doomkingraye7692 Not always, the Power AKkord Q just have a good Base Damage, not more. Base is 20% Scaling, Q Power Akkord has 28%. It is not that much more. But yeah in Early Game, but starting from Mid Game, you really should think about what you use.

[@sirrealgaming6913]

Seraphine was actually developed as a MID LANER as insane as that sounds She was built to be a powerful damage mage with decent cc that got enhanced by the jungler's presence However the player base went "why not just use her as a support" as if that wasn't the most obvious thing afterwards Riot eventually nerfed her down to somewhat support levels so she didn't dominate every game

[@Stry_ke]

i fell off my chair when Vars said "and then she beats ur ass with her spotify playlist" i freaking LOVE that

[@rensaudade]

I'd love to see a seraphine skin where she walks like a normal person.

[@SingingNuke]

That's the point though. She's not a normal person that's suppose to blend in. She's a popstar

[@vanilly6960]

I find her walking animation so uncanny and uncomfortable to look at XD

[@9angels825]

There needs to be a case study on how Seraphine’s lore prompted an influx of people who suddenly pledged allegiance to skarner. Suddenly everybody was a skarner fan. What was up with that?

[@rafaelcastor2089]

Bring up the holocaust and even people who don't care about the jewish faith 365 days of the year will be outraged.

[@Aaron-cs3xl]

I know one person who cares about Skarner! Although he doesn't play league anymore...

[@Duothimir]

@Ale Mar I do :(

[@kelmirosue3251]

@Ale Mar he won the champion rework poll, so I think more people then you think

[@Ultravioletskies]

Literally nobody gaf about skarner he was just a scapegoat used by the edgelords of the community to hate on seraphine

[@KhajiitKharjo]

Seraphine should win, she can make a diss track on Sona, and Sona wouldn't be able to respond

[@DeaminZaints]

>Implying Sona would need a voice to roast a person

[@pietoeat9750]

Ableism.... we love to see it...

[@bobocrin]

@@pietoeat9750shut up. please. thanks.

[@bellaphine6559]

@@pietoeat9750shut up

[@DAN-gf3qx]

seraphine is not sona 2, seraphine is lux 4

[@giorgiozeniquel3153]

this is probably the most accurate take I've seem about this, no joke. Lux, Morgana, Karma, Neeko and Seraphine are more similar to each other than Sera to Sona

[@nfzeta128]

exactly.

[@sortilien2099]

Nope its neeko 2.0

[@caitlynsult2685]

Nah more like Neeko 2

[@DAN-gf3qx]

@@caitlynsult2685 Neeko is also a lux

[@TTMILKYTT]

Sera’s best role has always and will always be APC, she’s too reliant on being near someone to reliably go mid but her W is on such a long CD it’s not very good at protecting her teammates, so you put her bot lane with someone like Sona, Janna, Karma, Senna and you have her farm and build damage, she gets the benefit of having someone to shield her so she can heal with W while using her double cast for Q or E

[@shadex08]

Lowkey one of the best parts of doing a Sona/Seraphine comparison video, the BGM fits in so naturally.

[@jaquanepatterson2537]

aww it's kind of cute that they complete each other more than they compete.

[@Sluppie]

Yeah it's natural that two musicians would form a band.

[@evenjesuscantsaveyouanymor6163]

@@Sluppie You need 3 for it to be called a band no? Who is the third one?

[@BraveLilToasty]

@@evenjesuscantsaveyouanymor6163 Bard. Bard and Sona be the instrumentals and Seraphine do vocals.

[@yoii4318]

@@BraveLilToasty Jhin has the “percussions”

[@-Matchuchu-]

Bard,jhin,sona and sera should be the next "band"

[@sheepyspeep1905]

the right answer is to have both on the same team, Sera+Sona duet. you get amazing neutral, hilarious tempo, a massive CC chain, and burst.

[@armorbearer9702]

They are pretty similar. Thematically, they are night and day. Sona is a classical musician. She is reserved and consistent. Seraphine is a postmodern musician. She is loud, fiery, and pumps up her teammates.

[@AlryFireBlade]

Classic Music: Sona Pop: Seraphine

[@Orange-rq8br]

Agreed with when you put Sona and Sera together. It will be scary as the root sisters (Lux and Morgana). Just imagine how many heals and shields they can spam. Let's not also forget the unlimited CC they can do... It's a nightmare

[@nfzeta128]

No, sera sona is usually trash until sona gets really strong and then it isn't really a matter of synergy so much as sona being a strong late game enchanter. Only sona can spam the shields and heals, sera shield/heal is her longest cd ability. It's why sera is better with engage or cc supports in the early game and even somewhat in the late game even though engage has been sucking recently.

[@melanie8026]

@@nfzeta128 you play to scale, and then late game you aram and everybody dies its so funny

[@Orange-rq8br]

@@nfzeta128 I mean Sera could still spam her heals and shields if there's a ability haste item/rune or if Sona has it...vise versa. But anyway, their synergy is very annoying.

[@nfzeta128]

@@melanie8026 you can do that with a lulu/janna/nami even better, without having a shit lane. The combo is trash, if anything having sera mid and sona supp would be better.

[@nfzeta128]

@@Orange-rq8br Only if you don't punish it. Sera/sona early and mid game is free kills, people just let perception ruin their games. If you just run at them anytime pre 6 they lose and die or just have to back off and lane is f'ed. Sera abilities easy to dodge unless sona always preps e and sera can't ramp damage with her q if her enemies aren't low.

[@HeartOfClod]

No argument Seraphine is more mechanically demanding than Sona, but saying Sona just has to press Q, W and E everytime the spells are off of cooldown is really reductive of her potential, IMO. She has a mini-Exhaust (that stacks with regular Exhaust) and a strong 2 second slow on her Power Chord + W and Power Chord + E. Obviously you can play Sona and not care about that, but she has a lot more potential than what the video makes it seem to be!

[@Every2Days...]

When people said to remove Seraphine and she's just like Sona, i always thought, why was two champions having similar kits a problem. Morgana and Lux are similar, Yasuo and Yone are similar, Rengar and Khazix are similar and probably many more i can't think of right now. I think people were just triggered about Seraphine's insta page and no one actaully hated her kit in the first place.

[@dominicguye8058]

Rell and Leona, Garen and Darius

[@Every2Days...]

@@dominicguye8058 every old adc champion

[@ignacioperez5479]

thats what happens when you basically place the reworked champ with the old one. sera and sona are closer each other than old and new morde or aatrox

[@chococuache486]

I do agree with the last one, I played as Sona and a friend of mine's as Seraphine The hard cc, poke and sustain was enormous and shocks me this combo is kind of underrated When you look at both of em and realize that one compliments eachother, you have a nightmare of musical mages incoming hard stomping everyone they sing on

[@sindriana]

It's terrifying to fight against. I lost lane, couldn't even get close without wanting to die :'(

[@Underworlder5]

turns out the best musical performance is a duet

[@dawidlol1337]

Depends on your champ, like a Draven Naut or Twitch Pyke will kill you 20 times.

[@evangreto]

Everyone hates on Seraphine but her design and kit are drastically different compared to Sona and they both feel entirely different to play (sona is very supportive while seraphine is more of a caster mage). Yet Yone and Yasuo have the same passive and Q and a knock up ultimate and nobody seems to care.

[@fakousecondss]

They're brothers

[@yummy8074]

Bruh, Seraphine is just showing waves at you with 2 aoe spells, where are the reasons not to hate her?

[@giorgiozeniquel3153]

let me introduce you to the reason behind: ✨ misogyny ✨

[@mangasaint]

@@fakousecondss right?! They would have had similar training for the most part and branched away from each other mostly due to preference in the techniques they studied or if they had different masters.

[@JunkSync]

i am pretty sure people did complained about that, is just that yasuo and yone actually have a reason for having some similar abilites in the lore, and also because basically all of seraphine's abilites but her passive both do and look similar things to sona. Like, yasuo and yone have the same 'type' of ultimate, but they obviously do it in their own ways. Yasuo has to hit his tornado and then he hits everyone in about a circle of that relative area, while yone's is more of a dash that he doesnt even have to hit. The same can be said with their passive, the only thing they really have in common is the crit increase. Same idea, completely different executions. While on the other hand seraphine and sona have practically the same ult and w, while their other abilities also being similar in concept. Seraphine just feels and looks like a mage oriented Sona.

[@dice3123]

12:32 Yeah obviously if you remove the mechanics then there's no way to fail mechanics. Managing power chords is the core of Sona's gameplay, both in early and late game. Disregard it and you end up with a player who sits 20 kilometers away from the fight or spams blue power chords in late game. Plus having to get at auto attack range is a huge risk, which is a thing Seraphine doesn't have to worry about. Also if Soraka struggles with health management, Sona has the same with mana, you can't casually spam w outside of teamfights without any repercussion because the mana cost on it is way too high, it' just not worth it. Usually you want to use w to block an attack AND heal at the same time to optimize efficiency, or you want to stack your moonstone.

[@Skywardflare758]

Seraphine was designed as a scaling midlane mage that has super strong team utility. However, between her timing, the backlash, and a major bug, she ended up being shunted to support, even though her mid and apc roles had higher winrates. First off, her timing. She was released right before pre-season, and itemization felt really off on her. By the time her build paths for mid and apc settled, the big mythic rework hit, and it was super rough on mana based scaling mages. Your only mana options were Lost Chapter and Tear, but it wasn’t enough as you’d tickle the enemy laner, run out of mana trying to wave clear, and have a really bad time until your third item. Combo that with how good assassin and bruiser/juggernaut mythics were, and it was super rough. Next came the backlash. People would throw shitfits over just seeing Seraphine. It was such a shit show that people actually played Skarner because she existed. Playing her support already brought in some toxicity just for picking her. Taking her mid or apc would severely ramp up the toxicity, even though those had higher winrates for most of her existence. And then there was a bug with Moonstone Renewer, which would proc off of her passive and led to it being extremely broken. Combined with stronger notes pre-nerf, she’d be consistently healing and poking for a good amount in lane, then could win team fights with an ult and well placed W (though she did fall off with enchanter items as her damage was bad and her cooldowns meant missing ult left you as a weak poker and CC extender). Of note, after the bug fix, her Moonstone win rate tanked, but people still insisted on that build. With all that, she was basically forced into support for a while, which led a large chunk of people to treat her as a support. And since her playerbase adapted to it because of that, now she’s seen as a support despite it being her worst role of the 3.

[@TheMicakuh]

Exactly, you put it very well with this comment. Support is by far her worst role, but everyone treats her as if she IS actually a support when her kit is much more similar to mages like Lux or Neeko. She only has her W as an enchanter aspect after all. She can be played there for sure with some success, but her potential is much much higher in carry roles where she has access to gold to buy her expensive items. And if someone wants to play an enchanter, basically every other one would work better in any scenario.

[@adamperdue3178]

mana mages are still in a super bad spot imo. Ryze for example can build nothing but mana items and even by level 6 can't 100 to 0 his enemy laner (assuming they're just letting him freely cast against him) without going oom. Only ways to get kills are to weave in autos, bait them into getting hit by minions/turret, or backing while they're not at full hp (hoping they stay in lane) and coming back with more mana to finish the job. Tear and Seraph's have been gutted repeatedly, and all other decent mana items (besides mythics which you can only have 1 of) have been removed, or had their mana taken out.

[@thienbachthai7992]

Seraphine passive music playing in the background in the video making it amazingly chill

[@SirLANsalot]

In the end, Seraphene was the Sona Rework we all were wanting, but instead was giving a whole new champion that completely ignored the games lore and was, quite literally, shoehorned into the world of runeterra.

[@redrosewick]

"There's no way you can mess up on sona" You underestimate the power of the people i see in silver/gold 😂

[@AlryFireBlade]

1 thing. Wrong Power Akkord.

[@Picaboom]

« There really is no one else who can achieve the same level of this increased tempo as Sona » Zilean: « Am I a joke to you? »

[@Picaboom]

And don’t even get me started on how much Zilean is a much better pick than Karma

[@AlryFireBlade]

@@Picaboom Nah, Zilean is stronger in Mobility, but in 1v1 Karma is stronger. They are still different playstyle. Karma can Fight alone, Zilean is hard focused on his Team.

[@Picaboom]

@@AlryFireBlade That is precisely the point I’m making. Karma creates her own tempo via her damages (which Zilean can also do, even if it’s less impactful if you don’t know most of his tricks), but in the « increased tempo » topic, he out shines all the other support apart from Sona. And the difference between the two, is that Sona is a mere 20% (+ 2% per 100 AP), against a pure 99% which makes most bruisers and ADCs almost uncatchable, or able to fly all the way up to the enemy team. Even tho one is AOE, the other is on such a low CD, and you can double it down with the W. Plus it procs Shurelia’s MS on top of it because you play Aery.

[@miniboymark7385]

Surround sound late game is on 10 sec cd so it's best to always double cast it as your q is on 2,5 sec and can be used to charge up the second double cast.

[@natsuvee5353]

Here an argument for sona. Do me a favour vars. I would you like to read Sona's power cord, specifically her W one. That power cord is a budget exhaust early but later it becomes a stronger exhaust that is on a 5 second cooldown. With that in mind, you can in some scenarios exhaust 2 enemies at once (if you chose to take exhaust) or exhaust any assassin that comes close to your ad. So, I think for that reason Sona is much better at fending off her teammates with an R that is much shorter cd and also gets reduced by her other spells, combined with op exhausts. If nobody on your team can die, then you can't lose the teamfight. Which will have me say Sona is a better teamfighter. Seraphine is way easier to play in these fights though, because Sona players don't utilize power cords well and utilizing them for right scenarios is hard.

[@Tsuusetsu]

Seraphine to sona "you can shield me so i can heal you?! DID WE JUST BECOME BEST FRIENDS?!"

[@roides1528]

As a sona main I promise you these two champs are night and day and the only thing similar are their designs.

[@G1ingy]

It's still baffling why they chose to make Seraphine fly around just like Sona. Like what were the odds that not only did she copy Sona's musical theme, but also happen to float around as well? And Seraphine looking like a KDA skin for Sona really didn't help.

[@Josh-99]

Let's be honest with ourselves: the only problem with Seraphine is her character aesthetic. If she had been designed as a void abomination throwing out shadow magic instead of a cute girl killing enemies with sparkly music, her reception would have been much different. People see her as encroaching on Sona because of her visuals, not because of her gameplay. They do seem like they are designed to be played together, as you noted.

[@giorgiozeniquel3153]

that's the thing with girly designs, community always hate them for "some reason". Zoe, Neeko, Yuumi and Lillia all faced similar backlash when they were released, but Sera is the "ultimate girly champion" so of course she was ultimately hated

[@Ultravioletskies]

@@giorgiozeniquel3153 if seraphine was some edgy boy using the skarner souls the community would literally not care so your point is 100% correct

[@kcStranger]

And if her aesthetic was different, people wouldn't play her 80% at support.

[@ignacioperez5479]

if she had been designed to actually looks like someone from runeterra instead of being isekaid into the world*

[@florianribault83]

Problem isn't who's better or who is doing a better job at what they do. problem is that instead of reworking sona's kit with Séraphine one they slapped a new champ That was made as a skin into a champ and half assedly buffed Sona to keep her barely relevant as they wanted her skin to keep selling but have a new champ with a better design that will sell more. You can't really compare both as they aren't two different champ but one champ and its old clunky version

[@shacolin6546]

To be fair, Seraphine is closer to Sona than new Warwick is to old Warwick. I still do believe those two are redundant.

[@FranciscoJG]

Agreed. Most pre-post VGU champions are more distinct than Sona-Seraphine.

[@ignacioperez5479]

old and new morde.have NOTHING in common

[@LordZemus]

Sona main here ; after watching this video I'm glad to see that despite their similar style , they actually have very distinct fighting styles and are good for different situations/compositions . Before this I was kinda OK with Seraphine copying Sona because it meant that , when/if Sona got a VGU or something similar , she could be updated to fit modern League with a new skill-set. But now after seeing this video , I'm actually convinced she doesn't need a VGU.

[@vanilly6960]

This! As a fellow Sona main I'd be pretty devastated to see her get a VGU honestly. I love her current playstyle so much and all she needed were the little changes that in the end were big for making her come back as a reliable pick. All she need is a visual update in my opinion, because if you compare her old skins and orginal form they look AWFUL in comparison to, for example, star guardian Sona (especially if u look at the hair)

[@Sluppie]

I don't think anyone could ever really claim that Sona and Seraphine are mechanical clones of eachother. I would say it's more that Sona was nerfed when Seraphine came out, and Seraphine reflected Riot's newer design philosophies while Sona very much did not and was apparently hard to balance. This lead people to conclude that Seraphine was a thematic replacement for Sona. Whether or not that conclusion was logical is up for debate, but it's very much not the case now.

[@shadowaification]

This is how I saw most of the hate toward Seraphine. Fans of Sona was seeing her as a straight replacement of Sona, hence the "Sona 2.0" nickname for her. That and the marketing leading up to her release was seriously cringe.

[@alphachurch01]

Pretty much the rework that could have been Sona instead we got a new champ with it kind of thing

[@benjaminbarraza8972]

As a lore fan Seraphine was like getting stabbed in the balls with a butter knife

[@ignacioperez5479]

yeah. its like being forced to kill yourself with a spoon. the funny part is, seraphine can move all the lore in zaun and piltover if she just dies

[@st2whocares988]

honestly I forgot about the hate of seraphine but it was pretty funny, like in the champion spotlight video, I say in the comment section like "seraphine is torturing the krugs with her music" and I got like 500 likes from it

[@ddanger420]

Thanks for breaking it down, seeing sona as defense and Sera as offensive is a good way to view it.

[@luism2125]

Seraphine feels more like a modern version of sona, better fit for the burst, hard engage, everyone for themselves meta

[@Ani_Thari]

Sorry, but I don't think people understand the backlash between Sera and Sona. The idea was Sera is a terrible, 200 year, rework of Sona utilizing Riot's design philosophy which highly favors DPS with misplaced utility. So, this is the warning if the rant to follow, above is the TLDR. Red string time but it is easy to see Sera was a rework. Besides the rush job to her main backstory, because skin lines usually have more lore for OG characters than characters themselves, by looking at the other stance dancer - Udyr - we can see where Sona's rework goals would be. I'm not saying it is suspicious that the only other "stance dancer" has a similar Sera effect of "the double cast gives a bonus ability" but it is a bit of a _coincidence_ isn't it? Despite the fact he is an auto attacker and the stance dancing is only to gain a necessary effect. Seems to me like the reason Sera has to charge the double cast by casting is because she was built off of Sona first and they could not let the the mechanic go. Throwing it back, in 2018 new Aatrox dropped and the backlash hit Riot. Could you imagine if they released, the next year, Sera's kit on Sona? How very angry Sona players, which outnumbered Aatrox's playerbase, would be if they had to change tactics from team support to violence? No, that would not have gone well at all - so, take another year and remake the character. Because, here's the other thing: Support, as a role, is not friendly to people having to do multiple actions for results (which is why Sera loves a damage role as much as Pyke). The clearer and simpler the abilities, the more you, as a Support, can worry about vision, jungle timers, and in that way enemy or ally positions. The problem with this verses at the core is it comes from it thinking Support players actually think Sera is a better version of Sona, when she never was considered that - she's a more aggressive, skill shots = skill, 200 year rework. But on the solo side people do not realize it but as a solo Support you can never assume ADC quality. You don't know if their IQ is above heatwave temps or you need to accept that you'll be pinging retreats or engages for the rest of your game to limited effect. Because there are two positions that get the most "blame" for a game: Junglers and Supports. Playing a Support that is overly complex or requires an ADC to read an essay to understand their tempo, is a disservice to both players. That's why many of Riot's recent attempts to make "aggressive supports" ended up moving out of bot lane (or become APCs). The two design philosophies simply do not work whereas the unintended Support, Sett, still has fans after Riot tried to kick him to Top exile. His kit is simple, best utilized against multiple opponents, he can build tank, and has high utility coupled with insane revenge potential. Revenge potential, by the way, is basically the unsaid mechanic that, if an ADC is falling off or running it down, Supports want to be able to pick up the slack. Technically our job is to carry the Carry to the nexus - kicking and screaming if necessary. So "revenge" supports that need only a little gold to be dangerous who can say, "Area clear," usually remain in the Support role - Renata is, in fact, the first one we have like this since old Support Morde. Basically, the more powerful the enemy team, the more dangerous the ally Support. With this in mind backlash against Sera seems like a preemptive strike against the idea that Supports need to be more "skill" focused on top of managing game flow for the team along with their Jungler partner in crime. So if you want more ways to win in League beyond, "Drop enemy team and push," stop saying the best defense is a good offense. Because when all anyone looks at is deaths and damage to champions, dismissing damage to towers, damage taken, objectives taken, time cc'ed, or wards up, nothing will ever change - including the overly complex character designs.

[@atomicpancakes]

FINALLY THE EPISODE I WAS WAITING FOR SINCE THIS SERIES STARTED

[@soraelysium4410]

The only thing I disagree with is that you never seem to include the second part of Sona's passive where depending on what song she has on she gets different effects on her next basic: More damage for Q, damage reducing on a single target for W, and huge slow on her E.

[@quickredf0x143]

He's a top main so he tends to not value supports the same way support players do. Everyone has their own blinders put on by their main role so I don't mind too much usually.

[@goleon7671]

Yeah, every person that says Sera is a better support than Sona does NOT know how op sona's empowered W auto is.

[@sindriana]

@@goleon7671 straight up mini exhaust every few seconds

[@soraelysium4410]

@@quickredf0x143 I also a top main but I like to mess around with all the other roles because a good support or jg can really carry your team.

[@EruCoolGuy]

I wanted to say Sera never really felt like Sona to me. I still hate her for those reasons : - She looks like Sona, but with somemore extract of 200 years, as if she was nothing but a reworked Sona themed around the voice. - She has nothing to do with the lore. To quote Necrit : "It's like putting a bunny women next to Aragorn". - Her voice in game. - I hate K/DA. - She's, at the same time, taking the job of an enchanter support and a control mage, thus allowing her to fill 3 lanes without big issues. - She is the emblem of what Riot has become : a company that does not hesitate to step on their old self to sell expensive stuff. In that case, stepping on both lore and Sona to sell a 30 bucks skin. To resume it : she's a champion made out of Sona rework concepts, without any bond to the lore, to fill the lack of gameplay between a long-teased skin with a huge promotional campaign. Edit : Of course he did. He thrashed Yone. What a man.

[@wojciechwerner8787]

Funniest part of this vs is fact that they sinergize so well. like it s to say that they shouldn't be fighting but cooperating.

[@tamamonomae2740]

Please note everyon: Back then Sona was bad when Seraphin was released. That's why there was so much of this hate.

[@pflaumi123]

When Seraphine released I think the point was valid for people to be upset about the similarities in gameplay. A rework would have been just fine too. (Not to mention that Seraphines lore was so bad, I would rather have it scrapped. Which makes me lean to the rework side even more.) Sona was in a terrible spot, either turbobroken or utterly useless and for a longer period at that time it was definitely the latter. Instead of giving Sona a rework she desperately needed, they used the new kit to release Seraphine instead. WIth the difference in strenght between them so high, you literally had no reason to pick Sona over Seraphine. So at that point Seraphine was basically Sona2. So at least for me, I didnt care that they are playing differently and have different purposes,. They were still similar enough and Sona was irrelevant because of Seraphine. And this was the case for a long ass time (they worked insane together on bot tho). Now two years later, they pronounced the differences between them more, by nerving Seraphine and giving Sona her mini rework, this concern I had is gone completely. But even then I stand by my point I had, since it took over a year to fix this issue in the end.

[@dravendraven1471]

Dravens answer would always be neither. But Sona does help me run it down mid with her E.

[@Mr_Mistah]

Draven remains based as always

[@yummy8074]

The only correct (and halal) answer

[@byeguyssry]

And Seraphine fails to with her W?

[@dravendraven1471]

@@byeguyssry Sonas E is faster, and has a shorter cool down. Sona wins.

[@Ultravioletskies]

Sera solos draven

[@UniEez]

Sera was originally designed as a supportive mid lane mage

[@dassd8393]

I remember when I had to face the terror of the duet. It was absolutely awful and I was playing as ADC. It's not the reason I'm iron but it didn't help. I love your videos and keep up the good work

[@max-potato-muncher]

Imma be honest, I had no idea that Sera's w heals when she has a shield. I was very confident in my belief that it was an effect of her double cast.

[@flyingthing7093]

Make mid sona more playable so I can rest as a Sona main

[@vanilly6960]

I love from time to time go mid with her and beat people because they are not respecting her dmg and how easy it is to get a good gank off of her

[@flyingthing7093]

@@vanilly6960 Ikr I just walk to under tower with throwing my green passive at whoever ganks me

[@kcStranger]

People who think Seraphine is a support are getting misled by her aesthetics and surface-level similarities to enchanter supports like Sona. You certainly can play her support, but a lot of her power is in her damage and AP scalings, and that's literally how Riot told us we were supposed to play her. Although pro play and soloQ aren't the same thing, there's a reason you see her mainly bot, sometimes mid and never support in pro play. Bot in particular lets you get your items but also benefit from your enchanter-y abilities (mainly W) in lane.

[@JoaoPedroPT696]

I honestly never understood why some people got this idea they were similar. Sera is more similar to Neeko than to anything else. Q and E are basically the same skillshot plus they both have super ults.

[@EthanBoycottLOO]

Seraphine passive is basically a free LeBlanc R every 3rd ability Seraphine Q is just the bursty version of Morgana's soil Seraphine W is just empowered Karma shield with an additional heal Seraphine E is similar to Neeko's root when empowered or with Rylai's Seraphine Ult is much more similar to Nami than it is Sona IMO

[@b4history32]

Wow you never understood why two music themed champions that have the same supportive capabilities of shielding and healing and even a large wave cc ult were compared to each other?

[@Kuraikari]

People tend to forget that Power Chord does more than deal damage. If the current aura is her W the empowered attack reduces the damage the target deals by 35%. If it's her E the target gets slowed. So Sona technically has an Exhaust in her kit. Rendering a fed enemy useless. Funnily enough, when seraph gets a shield from a rune, like overheal, it works as well. You could build locket on her to guarantee the heal in pinch. Not really good, but fun to play with.

[@phyrexian_dude4645]

Im a Sona player and long ago i came in therms that they play differntly and im ok with that. But Seraphine marketing and over all visuals are and still is by far the most cringe, outrageous and terrible of them all. The fact that on the concept art they litterally made far better and more Runeterra/Piltover/Zaun designs than the final result its absolutely unexcusable, that her lore was one of the most rushed, bone thin and objectively sociopathic didnt help either. But the final nail in the coffin was that her release KDA skin had more lore than AND that it was also an ultimate skin was simply unacceptable, they wantet to sell us THAT Seraphine, not the Runeterra one. The cherry on top was that at the time they gave Sona that awfull "rework" that made her unplayable, and to put more salt on the wound, they did it right after they gave her a new skin, and then they revealed this Sona copycat? Yeah, every Sona player had the right to be pissed about it.

[@SheValentine]

I was kinda hoping he'd mention the effects of sona's enhanced autos. She can not only buff her team but also debuff the other team and people seem to forget that and more often than not underestimate it.

[@Pyrrha_Nikos]

As someone who loves playing both Seraphine and Sona, I've been saying this for over a year now: Comparisons between them are always gonna be wrong because it's comparing oranges to apples. Sona is an enchanter support, while Seraphine is way way way way way WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better as a bot lane carry, or even a mid laner (although high mobility assassins can destroy her in mid, so I think bot is the best place for her) than a support, and has been for a long time now. If you think about it, as you mentioned, Seraphine has better damage, solo pressure and teamfight, all things that bot lane carries have, while Sona wins in mobility, defense and consistency, which are mostly things good supports actually need. Yes, Seraphine can be built as a support, and to some extent it does work, but it's like playing Lux support and building support items. Like, why? You are wasting the champion's potential, and your role in the team as well

[@rektbiich4585]

Seraphine isnt an enchanter,yea u can build her like one ,but she sucks being an enchanter due to her high cd on w that scales with ap anyway.She is a mage,either mid or adc, and she functions very well as one

[@Izigurand]

I probably wouldn’t have a problem with Seraphine if her ult was different and her theme was entirely different.

[@Fiddle0131]

I have an idea for some VS vids: Artillery attrition (Xerath VS Vel'koz) Resistance Raid Bosses (Malphite VS Galio) Freljord's magic Freezers (Anivia VS Lissandra) Man vs Nature (Volibear VS Udyr) Void Empresses (Bel'veth VS Rek'sai) Jungle CC Chaos (Sejuani VS Zac) Hops for days (Aatrox VS Riven) Shadow Isle Supports (Thresh VS Senna) Engage Tank Staples (Nautilus VS Leona) Identity Crisis (Red Kayn/Rhaast VS Blue Kayn/Shadow Assassin) Mid lane Time Bombs (Kassadin VS Viktor)

[@mobius730]

Me as a sona main: Now, I'll try using Seraphine. Game ends: Defeat! You know how frustrated I am when using Seraphine because of Slow movement of her skills and as a sona main only the 2nd skill is similar! Even sera's Ult is so hard to hit the enemy because of its slow movement of the ult unlike Sona's ult that when being cast you will be having a heart attack because of the sudden very fast sound that was produced on her ultimate.

[@recon_ik]

I don't think they accomplish the exact same job but I think they're close enough and comparing the two boils down to the same issues with most new champs. Older champs tend to have higher "raw" numbers while newer champs have way more things going on. Regardless of balance it's hard to see Seraphine not being superior to Sona simply due to the sheer number of features and adaptability in her design. Sona definitely can pump out more healing, shielding and move speed than Sera, but in practice Seraphine provides all that and CC and damage and in a larger area when it's really needed. Now that said, I really don't mind Seraphine, maybe a teensy bit too much range for how large the ability hit boxes are, but its fine. But damn do I agree her appearance is stupid. Art is one thing, but her model literally looks like a sims character and stretches around in animations like she's made of rubber.

[@Ultravioletskies]

There is a deeper reason as to why Sera got/still gets all this hate and you’d be lying if you said there isn’t.

[@omarkydevo6319]

"Battle of songstresses" Meanwhile, Jhin: Another target?

[@ignacioperez5479]

yes jhin, but this time make it canon please. so the lore of zaun and piltover can move

[@Etoilime]

Omg when you teased this video I was really scared as a Seraphine and Sona main cause they aren't that similar, I'm so happy you said that they shouldn't be compared! Although I have to disagree with Seraphine being an enchanter. She's as enchanter as Morgana or Lux are and she shines more in midlane or as an APC than a support where she's not really good since she relies a LOT on items.

[@kcStranger]

Agree. She has enchanter-y stuff in her kit but isn't really. If not for her appearance, I think people would mostly play her as a bot APC. (I think that's a better role for her than mid because she can benefit from those enchanter-y abilities more in lane.)

[@mimic3872]

I find it amusing that some people claimed that "Just because they are two music-based champions, doesn't mean you had to copy-paste their abilities, riot!" when in actuality it was those exact people that saw the two of them being musicians and assuming they're the same champion, despite how diffrent they were

[@Rakaan238]

"2 years have passed." WHAT! It's been that long already!? God i am getting old quick

[@TheGolleum13]

I don't think you adequately took into account Sona's passive. She has an inbuilt damage cut on her W. In the damage category you didnt even take into account Sona's Q aura

[@MayDawn519]

I still call them things like Mute Sona vs Annoying Sona, Mind Control Sona vs Genocide Sona, and Old Sona vs New Sona

[@RB-xc9wg]

i feel like the longer the fight goes, sona wins. (which doesnt happen in the current state of the game) the moment sone gets more than one cast of her abilities, shes more usefull in fights than Seraphine. (can heavily depend on teamcomp)

[@moonwatchereclipse5291]

I’m not even joking, I just looked up Seraphine vs Sona to see if you had made a video on it and it’s premiering soon. Talk about ✨ perfect timing ✨

[@Goldenfire49]

OK. The two V one Sett vs Sera/Sona had me dying in laughter. You know that the salt flowed in all chat from Sett after that loss.

[@AlryFireBlade]

Yeah it is so frustrating to play a Top Laner like that and be kitet to death from to People like the playball of a Dog. But yeah, that is how Sqishy Champs need to fight, when they want to win.

[@soap_soap]

When star guardian sera drops on pc they’ll be the most unstoppable duo of all time.

[@LuckySoftpaw]

Best Taric description ever

[@sakutaro3musik486]

my problem with sona is, is that she is an aura support, she should be the best teamfight support but she clearly isn´t. Sonas auras worked good in old league, but with how fast the game is now seraphine is just much better in many situations. One good sera ult is much better in a teamfight then anything sona can provide. I play both of them and sona is amazing but she is so team dependend while sera can carry by heself

[@user-ie4uk3ub6c]

I play both and I strongly disagree with this lol… sona is the best late game champ in terms of numbers. Seraphine is a good utility mage with aoe healing, shields, and cc. But her heals and shields aren’t as rapid.

[@ignacioperez5479]

@@user-ie4uk3ub6c who cares if you can heal 2500 in 10 seconds if the teamfigth is defined by who can deals more damage in less time? that is the problem of sona and why seraphine was so much better when she was released. seraphine offered more than sona in every aspect because of the figth being who can explodify the enemy in less time

[@user-ie4uk3ub6c]

@@ignacioperez5479 I mean duh seraphine is going to deal more damage.. she’s a MAGE. Sona is literally a HyperCarry of supports. She just gives her team perma steroids while seraphine is more cc and damage based

[@juliankanzuki2013]

obviously there are differences and they both have strengths over eachother. but the point still stands that they ARE too similar in their kits considering they also share the same thematic, AND similar design (young cute musical girl with long flowing pastel hair that floats around and uses music as magic). There is no denying that Seraphine is stepping on Sona's toes in every single area even if she's not an EXACT copy, she is still too close.

[@NekoSeeU444]

But Sona is in her 30s...

[@amandaslough125]

@@NekoSeeU444 They still have too similar a thematic, kits, and lore.

[@juliankanzuki2013]

@@NekoSeeU444 well that's outright false. considering she was a child in year 985 AN during the noxian war, and the ruination (most recent event) took place in year 997 AN. That means she could not possibly be in her 30s if she was a 'child' 12 years ago. it sets her age at around 16-25, so most likely late teens to early 20s since the lore specifically says 'child' not 'teenager'.

[@phoenixwright3752]

seraphine is literally classified as a burst mage, no one ever remembers this

[@user-ie4uk3ub6c]

And before durability patch, it was her most viable build. But now, she’s just better with cdr full ap.

[@xviolaa]

My hottest take is that Seraphine's design is really not THAT bad, people just hate her because I guess she looks like an egirl and it's cool to hate those. She's a Piltovan pop star, she looks exactly like I imagine that concept should

[@ignacioperez5479]

tell me, what on her design says piltover? her concept arts were much better showing that than her actual design. thats because probably her original design was the KDA skin

[@SingingNuke]

@@ignacioperez5479 she has a unnecessary leather belt, leather shoes, a lot of hextech, white clothing pieces and her stage. It's a mix of P&Z with glitter on it because she's a Pop Star. She was made before K/DA. Her lead designer said that she was in production 4 years ago. That's way before K/DA All Out

[@ignacioperez5479]

@@SingingNuke really? if you take her stage out i would say she is from targon rather than piltover

[@amandaslough125]

@@SingingNuke 4 years ago? So 2018. That literally is Sona 2.0 then. Since 2018 was the release of Odyssey Sona, with the beta Seraphine ult augment and the talk of a Sona rework that was later scrapped.

[@Shadessmh]

The point is that seraphine should have been a Sona rework,not a new champ.

[@snoovian7951]

this is a great vid but I just wanna say good work on the thumbnail looks amazing

[@lokir2809]

For me its really funny how broken is Sona around 2 items and how unpopular she is compare to it. She literally has 5 s CD unmissable exhaust, strong aoe dmg buff and istant dis/engage.

[@captainmorgan2530]

Well majority of people don't enjoy playing a garen-level brainless champ who unlike garen also happens to be an enchanter support.

[@Josh-99]

The thing is that other enchanters can bring more to the team while applying way more pressure early in the game. Sona has an amazing neutral game, but that's about it; she's best for bottom carries that want to sit back and farm safely, as her lack of CC early puts her at a massive disadvantage to support who can lock down their target and turn an early engage into a 1v2. If the opposing Leona / Caitlin duo all-ins at level 3 and Leona jumps on the carry, Sona can't do a single thing to peel Leona off, and her damage and support abilities aren't going to do anything to win that fight. Compare this to Lulu, who can point-and-click Polymorph or Nami who can bubble a target or Lux who carries tons of soft CC and a shield etc. Because games are so fast these days and people tend to play very aggressively in an attempt to get early leads, Sona's general playstyle has fallen out of favor.

[@jamersbazuka8055]

Lol @ Sona at 14:27, Sett's putting his whole rotation in and Sona's just like "yeah, I'm gonna go leave now..."

[@mathematiciantim3439]

Vars character development, you love to see it.

[@dawidlol1337]

You missed out the empowered W auto on Sona, that mini exhast gives Sona so much survivability vs stuff like Zed even. Which is why Sona should win out since you can protect vs assassins with this mini exhaust and than sustain your team back up which I would say is stronger than Seraphine's burst resist. And yeah don't go rylais on Seraphine it doesn't do anything go something that will do damage or help your team.

[@jiasolia]

I main both !! Idk much about gameplay though since I’m new so this was an interesting watch :D

[@ignaciovelasco9452]

I feel like you forgot taking into account sona's empowered basic attack honestly, you for example say that you have a better chance of surviving a malphite yasuo combo with seraphine but sona can just her W empowered AA to reduce in late game *41%* off someone's dmg, and if you have exhaust, which you will because sona only takes exhaust that is 73% of someone's dmg going out the window which in my opinion its one of the reasons sona is so busted, she can literally make someone useless with point and click utility yet you havent talked about sona's empowered AA anywhere. Look vars I love you and you are incredible but I hate seraphine with all my passion and love sona so im not letting this slip away

[@FranciscoJG]

Seraphine isn't a rip off from Sona, but Sona's neglected VGU

[@Mastattak]

I will never not hate Seraphine for what she is and how Riot decided to tease/release her, however I never was one of those people who claimed they just copy and pasted Sona, this video was very interesting in that it may help people see that 🙌🏼

[@Grondaia_Marcia]

can't wait for Samira vs Nilah kekw

[@tamanwin7278]

I used to main Sona, ever sinces Seraphine came out, shes pretty much a Sona Version 2, just like how Aatrox is Riven Version 2 to me. Seraphine is just a better over all kit.

[@invismilkman4618]

I am a sona main and will forever hold a grudge against seraphine, nothing will ever change this

[@Arob4343]

Taric makes an aggressive appearance and I love it

[@yazanalrasheed72]

0:30 “Roughly two years have passed since her release” Sorry, WHAT?! Wasn’t that 2 months ago?

[@xuanbachtrinh6499]

This vid is about sona and seraphine Vars: play seraphine theme tha whole vid Also vars: eqUAlly

[@shacolin6546]

I miss when Sona was a poke lane bully.

[@alevaleeria]

she still is

[@mjbakermd414]

even with max w she still is wtf?

[@t.h.mcelroy6597]

As much as I enjoy ribbing Seraphine, her kit is genuinely cool and distinct enough as to stand as a valuable champion on the roster. Good vid!