Fudging The Game - RPG Philosophy

[@munderpool]

I am shocked - SHOCKED, that there is fudging going on here! Is there no depth to which you will not sink? If Dweebles - a man who clearly holds your GMing in the highest esteem - watches this video, he'll be heartbroken...

[@kiruppert]

\*Hands over an envelope * Your winnings, sir.

[@OldGodsGames]

When you said you deleted the older video my first reaction was "Oh no, the skit." It is literally one of my favorite parts of the video, and I am glad you recycled it. Thank you for attributing the music used in the montage sequence. I've wondered where to find this song for a while XD

[@richmcgee434]

Agreed on all counts. I'd hate to lose that epic battle with the evil paladin. :)

[@ChewieLuke]

I had the same reaction; that Black Paladin sketch is epic.

[@oblivious8868]

It is a fantastic skit, and I'm glad it survived

[@Alresu]

Not only favourite part of the video, that's likely my favourite part of this channel.^^

[@BobWorldBuilder]

Had to pause the video to say this skit is probably my favorite on your channel - you have many great ones, but this really takes the cake. From “Well, we followed the dice...” to that epic montage, solid all the way through ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️

[@APaganPerspective]

The BlackPalladin bit is so METAL....

[@Sougamwthmana]

Agreed, so glad Seth kept that part from his old video

[@TheBayzent]

I just imagined Kevin Hart in a black spiked armor getting crits with his Dwarven Waraxe. Because if Kevin Hart was in D&D he would obviously be either a Dwarf or a Hafling.

[@actualperson1971]

Hehe, palladium, hehe, metal

[@jimbillyjenkims]

I like to roll the dice every now and then for no reason whatsoever, then just look at the result and go, "Huh." and keep playing like nothing happened. Keeps them on their toes for when you actually NEED to roll for something and you either don't want them to suspect or need it to be an actual secret roll.

[@jasonnewell7036]

I like failing forward for Library Use rolls in Call of Cthulhu. If they look for info, I like them to find it so if they fail a roll I just increase the time it takea to find info. Once a player pushed a Library Use and I had him fall asleep for about 2 game hours. He still found the info, but it made their time frame a lot more tense.

[@ArawnNox]

This is a good way to handle it, especially when failed die rolls either have no immediate consequence or failure ends up gating off part of the adventure. Example, in a Deadlands adventure, the players have to make a Streetwise roll to find the specific NPC they need to continue the adventure. A couple of ways to handle that is either don't roll at all, or failure eats up more time if they're under a time crunch (they aren't in the module), or it could trigger an encounter and they find the contact anyway.

[@stm7810]

Yes, depending on the time period and library they might get stuck on finding false information, reading something only partly related or once had a kid see some of the accult tome they brought with them whilst the player was asleep at a desk and have to deal with the guilt of a child being traumatised by their failure.

[@ygaudreault]

Specialy that you usually have a take 10, or take 20 for those kind of rolls, they just require time.

[@jasonnewell7036]

I'm not a fan of binary success/fail

[@stm7810]

@@jasonnewell7036 Same, binaries suck there's at least 4 other options, succeed and, succeed but, fail and, and fail but. succeed: you find the book succeed and: you find the right book along with some other useful information succeed but: you found the book, but it's damaged or less useful fail but: you didn't find the book, but you get a tidbit that may help you fail: you didn't frind the book fail and: you waste time thinking a fake is the right book.

[@adammclauchlin7605]

When I started GMing I fudged to much and would often go sessions without PCs getting any damage (I was 11) because I was afraid they wouldn’t want to play it if they got hurt. In my experience the Players like to struggle. It’s dramatic and players will start know when you fudge if you do it too much.

[@lctaylor6]

I am the most forgiving Call of Cthulhu Keeper ever. I never kill players unless it would make for a really awesome death. I also fudge the sanity rules to the favor of narrative.

[@skirk248]

I'm the player who can feel a lack of tension in a game and will ask the GM to kill me off to get it cracked way up. The other players don't get it. My GM usually doesn't get it. But if done right this can help greatly

[@kasane1337]

I feel like I should have fudged in an earlier game...because they got way too little damage because I miscalculated their strength (and the dice were in their favour). One of them even told me after the session that he found it a bit too easy and not really challenging enough :/

[@darthsidious6380]

What about fudging to add damage?

[@robertnett9793]

@@darthsidious6380 This entirely depends. Some encounters look good on paper - but turn out to be painstakingly boring because - depending on the system you use, the enemies aren't able to hit the players at all, or do so little damage it doesn't really count. In this cases you can and should taking the reigns of the encounter tighter and scaling up the damage. There are a few videos out there about scaling up an encounter in the right way. So instead of just adding a random number to the damage - you should weave it into your narrative. The shaman behind the goblins might mumble unintelligible words, a soft green glow starts to surround his minions and you see how their muscles bulge and grow under their greyish green skin! Voila Double Damage - have fun. Or let them drink a potion (increases their armor class and damge) and so on. As long as it is visible for the players why the enemy suddenly is harder than before - it's fine.

[@JamesCorp]

I like throwing Fudge at my GM

[@markadkins1842]

Will fudge dice rolls for fudge!

[@lctaylor6]

As a GM, I like fudge. You shall live.

[@MrCorgifan2]

I wish my players threw fudge at me

[@kiruppert]

Delicious!

[@rexhazelwood7302]

Your welcome any time at my game :)

[@darbizzlebacon]

The Black Paladin bit is one of my favourites, thank you for keeping it!

[@nathanbrady5648]

"Does the game master want the player to fall to their death?" Sometimes

[@joshjames582]

I want them to make good decisions so they don't, but I roll my dice in the open in case they don't make good decisions, so they'll know they did this to themselves.

[@The_Custos]

One way I fudge, if they search for traps more, suddenly there are more traps to find!

[@LordOdor]

Yeah, I like to do that, too. Sometimes Spiders magically appear in the dungeon just because they were worried about meeting Spiders.

[@Isdezenaambezet]

That's just rewarding players tbh. If they have a character who likes to look for traps it would be a shame if he never found any.

[@richmcgee434]

@@LordOdor There was an article for running a VSF game (Forgotten Futures, I think) that suggested doing exploration adventures that way. The GM was meant to start with a bare-bones concept ("primitive aliens living inside an asteroid, survivors of a broken up planet") and modify things on the fly based on the speculations of the PCs as to what they expected things to be like. It was meant to model the way characters in old VSF stories (Honeymoon In Space being a fine example) would engage in scientific theorizing about what the inhabitants of a planet would be like before encountering them, which generally proved to be prophetically accurate. Mechanically, it tended to make PCs that are expecting trouble to get it, and ones who were optimistic and hopeful to run into more peaceful encounters.

[@Meatball996]

England: is almost early morning Seth:uploads Me: Awoken

[@theemperormoth5089]

AHYAHYAHYAH

[@nicklarocco4178]

"A dungeon master only rolls the dice for the noise they make" ~Gary Gygax

[@midnighter2k]

And yet somo grognards still on being "slave of the dice" for fear of "not writing a novel"

[@skirk248]

I'm the player that doesn't want the GM's (when highly experienced) to roll dice. I think the more feel they have for a narrative the more their dice can ruin it

[@origamiknife7556]

Gygax was also a proponent of punishing players in game for things they had done outside the game, so maybe we don't take what he says as gospel.

[@gorillahandz]

Glad someone included this quote. And should that be taken as gospel? Well...he did co-invent the game, so the guy earned it in my opinion. Aside from that, I agree mostly with Seth's take. Another thing I consider though is timing/pace. If the PCs are blowing through an encounter too quickly I'll fudge a little to stretch it out, or shorten it if we have a hard stop on game time. I had a player filling in once who tried calling me out on fudging, and I straight up told him it was an option I had no problem using, then asked him if when he ran for his group he used open rolls, he said he did, and my reply was, "You have your players spend a lot of time rolling up new characters, do ya?" He didn't say anything.

[@chrismoore1372]

OG RNG

[@GenCirnoLivestream]

No joke, I used the Black Paladin bit in one of my exit exams for my Masters to explain in layman's terms how D&D works AND the conflict between the rules of the game and telling a good story. I'm one of those people who looks at D&D as a storytelling device with rules that are meant to encourage creativity, but this is one of those cases where the story supersedes the outcome of dice rolls.

[@blandedgear9704]

What did you get your Masters in?

[@jesternario]

Did you pass?

[@GenCirnoLivestream]

@@jesternario yes

[@GenCirnoLivestream]

@@blandedgear9704 English Literature

[@lordzaboem]

The reason I think Seth is a particularly good KZbinr because of how disciplined he is in organizing his humor. His lecturing is credible because he doesn't break character as a see serious lecturer. We all know that Setg is very funny, but he keeps his humor within the visuals and the skits so as to not undermine the knowledge he presents.

[@MySqueezingArm]

I've been DMing a Pathfinder 2E game. After being accused of fudging rolls against the players after a tough encounter, I rolled publically the next encounter. I ended up critting every other roll and took out 3 of 4 players. Needless to say they relaxed a bit.

[@KickyFut]

"You don't actually want to fight me at my full power..."😈

[@MySqueezingArm]

Digital (FGU) dice

[@TheBayzent]

Thankfully my players have played wargames with me and know of my uncanny luck with die (directly related with my massive bad luck with women) so they know that when I fudge, it is to their advantage. I've had problems with new groups, which is why I don't hide my rolls with strangers.

[@freddaniel5099]

Great video and topic. As a player I really dislike the GM NOT rolling dice out in the open. Fudging ruins my fun whether I am playing or GMing. So fun for me means respecting the dice. Others may see their fun differently. The worst is "plot immunity" - NPCs that can't die, items that can't be used by the players, and GMs blatantly railroading. I guess it's important to play with people who all have the same idea of what is, and is not, fun.

[@Observer29830]

I like the last line in your post a lot, even if I disagree with everything else. I know I'd hate to end up in the company of dice goblins who treat the bones as prophesy is true. And I'm sure the goblins would hate me for bitching and moaning about how the party was mopped up in the first combat. What I like about your take is that you recognize that it's just your opinion, not the universal truth. Lots of comments here don't.

[@Yuni-is-Schrodingers-Fox]

5 Gamemaster Secrets is gone? Thats a shame. That was the first video I watched from this channel and I really liked it. Oh well, C'est La Vie.

[@erc1971erc1971]

I agree. I was so disappointed to find out that video is no longer available.

[@seileurt]

I miss that video already. Hopefully Seth will remake it.

[@kevingriffith6011]

I actually had a pretty heavy *rules* fudging incident in the last game I ran: The normal GM for our party is pretty forgiving of parties flying fast and loose with the due diligence of dungeon crawling, so when the party left the wizard alone while they were ritual casting identify on something, I had the wizard get jumped by a tiger. I planned this little ambush just for this scenario, and the full intent was to effectively knock the split-off character out in a single turn for the rest of the party to rescue them. "Don't split the party" and all that. The trouble was that because I had been kinda busy that week I hadn't actually recorded the party's stats, so I had no idea that the wizard player wasn't the level they were supposed to be... coupled with a lucky crit and the first swing downed the character, leaving the tiger with one more attack and then a bonus damage pounce that would have killed the character outright... so I conveniently ignored those mechanics: The tiger already did it's job and outright killing the PC with a monster that they only learned about the presence of in the very turn that it knocked them out is just unsporting, even if I made several behind-the-screen perception rolls to see if anyone actually spotted the animal, which they did not. The party regrouped, the tiger decided it liked living and ran and everything was right with the world, as long as nobody bothers to actually look up what a tiger can do.

[@ArawnNox]

My first session running 5e I did something like this. I had a big party of level 1s and I sicced a Giant Scorpion at them because according to the math it should have been a "medium encounter". So, after I insta-killed the party monk, I rewound it slightly to just downed, allowing the party member to be brought back up and I didn't use the scorpion's multiattack the rest of the combat and it was still a decent fight. That was also when I learned not to trust the CR system.

[@CowCommando]

The tiger doesn't necessarily have a reason to keep attacking an unconscious opponent and you aren't required to make every attack that you can, so this is just a minor DM fudge anyway. No reason to worry even if they do look up the stats.

[@tukman16]

@@ArawnNox There is a highlighted text in the DMG page 82 telling you about how you should be cautious with low level groups. It even states an example similar to yours.

[@cameronjames3499]

That wasn't a fudge at all! It just so happened that this particular tiger didn't use its second attack because that paw had been wounded by a goblin's spear 3 days earlier and so it was trying not to strain it as it healed. Also this particular tiger had been raised in captivity so hadn't had another tiger around to teach it traditional hunting techniques like pouncing. Quite a sad story really : D

[@coda821]

This is why I like the idea of a roguelike ttrpg. It could be brutal and educational.

[@Belnazz]

In our circle of friends is very common for the players to "fudge" some checks with a "I choose to fail" because failing will make for a better storytelling at a certain point.

[@Lallander]

I'm so glad you kept the Black Paladin segment. Fantastic work as always.

[@Bramandin]

I remember watching the old video and I'm glad you kept the skit :) I'm also like that you're revisiting old topics.

[@Oracle_]

This is the first time ever I'm this early on a video. And this is a very important matter to me, I've had lots of debate with friends over fudging!

[@schwarzerritter5724]

There is one thing you have to realize about randomness: True randomness does not look random. For example, if you take a 100x100 grid and use a D100 to fill it with points, you will end up with clusters and empty spots; it is perfectly random, but it does not look random. If you want it to l o o k random, you have to fill in the grid by hand.

[@KryptKicker5]

Failing to realize that leads to a lot of frustrations. Especially with XCOM players :P

[@theresasbaby]

That skit was worth saving! I am glad that it survived the cutting room floor, so to speak.

[@griselame]

12 angry men as the thumbnail. Instant respect

[@RossPitSharkHunter]

Actually it's just the 1 angry man... Anyway, yeah, great movie.

[@EpicFailLawlKat]

This falls under something I learned about manipulation - we do it all the time, and it's literally just how we interact socially. We don't hate being manipulated. We hate being manipulated *badly*. Especially for the gain of others. Fudging dice is the exact same way. We don't hate people swinging odds. We hate the odds being shoved in too hard in the wrong direction or for the wrong reason.

[@UnwalledGarden]

I'm glad you kept the old skit - its one of your best!

[@m.edwardmcnally6802]

Damn... I really thought Todd had that dastardly Black Paladin this time.

[@spacedinosaur8733]

Me too!

[@oblivious8868]

Was a good fight though, and that's what is important

[@erikbuchanan4648]

Great video. I'm in 100% agreement. One of the reasons I love PBTA games is failing forward is baked into the system. Plus these types of games allow the GM a wide birth of interpretation no matter the role. In more traditional games a little tweaking can go a long way. When I run a game my #1 job is to entertain my players. They put enough trust in me that they give me a few precious hours every week. If nerfing the occasional role is needed to make someone feel awesome, so be it!

[@ronin7997]

Everything is rolled openly at my table, both PC and DM dice, so there's a lot of transparency. I've found this helps establish trust with my players. I apply DM fudging to modifiers and HP totals with my monsters and NPCs IF needed, depending on the ebb and flow of the encounter to keep it fun.

[@Nickle_King]

I was in a campaign, and first session, our party was attacked by a Ranger, a Cleric, and a Monk. Our Sorcerer cast Sleep and suddenly the enemies were down to a Ranger and a Cleric. There was no possible way our party could lose. My Yuan Ti Rouge started to move the unconscious Monk out of the fighting to make sure she didn't get hit by something and wake up. That was when the DM Fudged very well. Seeing the situation, the Ranger whistled. A lion bound into the room. It surveyed the battle and saw my character dragging away the one who gave it treats. My Yuan Ti looked at the lion, down to the Monk, back to the lion.... "Uh oh." Then got mauled. She had nearly nothing for hit points, so a single engagement with this cat nearly took her out of the fighting. And it was glorious. That Lion wasn't planned. The Ranger didn't have it before then. And it made the game so much better. Fudgeing should ALWAYS be in a DM's back pocket. It's like salt. Used in a pinch, and never at random.

[@ArawnNox]

"Used in a pinch and never at random." Never heard that before. I'm using it now. :D

[@HonestAuntyElle]

I don't consider that 'fudging' more like improvisation

[@Nickle_King]

Ryan The Leach Eh. You’re not wrong. Still. Good Fudgeing can be in the same vein. It’s all about knowing when and how much.

[@kiruppert]

The original version of this was one of the first videos of yours I got recommended by KZbin, and I am really glad that you kept the skit from the old version. A+ Top-Shelf material.

[@timdertim]

Great upload! I especially enjoyed the Big Ben analogy, just using fudging as means to keep the game running like clockwork. Great stuff, love the Black Paladin skit as well

[@shawncarnes9471]

I’m literally wearing that same shirt today, Seth. Good choice.

[@TheWarpGhost]

Seth, firstly I'd like to say there are lots of other GMing/RPG channels out there, but I can honestly say that as good as many of them are, you are the only one that I have consistently watched without fail since I found it. So thanks for doing such a great job! As someone who almost exclusively uses virtual tabletops where there isn't really a proper GM screen (and I find it naturally creates an expectation of open rolls), I do sometimes wish there was more opportunity to fudge like in an RL setting, for exactly the reasons you give. There are ways around it particularly in combat, but I find virtual tabletops more limited when you're trying to create good story over technical correctness

[@eadee4910]

I agree with a lot of stuff on this channel but I gotta comment here... "Dice aren't storytellers" Exactly! they are a tool to create random numbers/outcomes. That's why you only use dice if you don't want to predetermine the outcome anyways. If you have to fudge the result of dice, you shouldn't have rolled the dice in the first place, you should've realized beforehand that you don't want a random result in this particular moment. As a GM ist is completely fine to go into storytelling mode to get the adventure back on track. Some things don't need to be a dice roll. And if you roll everything out in the open the shocking value of those two criticals will be amazing for the players, even if they get beaten to death in the first round. They have to see it with their own eyes and they will talk about it for years. GM screen is good for GM-notes, not for dice rolls. The point where only a single hero remains able to fight is the point where either the heroes should think of retreat and regroup. If the stupid act of attacking the end boss alone doesn't get rolled out fairly, the players will expect you to save their ass all the time and stop looking for difficult to find smart decisions. If, for some reason, you can't possibly let the heroes retreat and regroup (because there's a doom-timer or something) then maybe one of the beaten heroes gets found by a defecting agent of the evil boss, who heals up the fallen heroes so they can take the boss on as a group. This is a storytelling device to give them a better chance, no dice rolled. Just don't encourage your players to make dumb choices. They'll come up with a lot of creative and intelligent ideas once they realize that you won't fudge dice for them. If they get rewarded for stupid actions by you fudging dice, they will just care less and less over the time, because they feel like their actions don't matter at all. Players not caring about the game is bad. They won't enjoy the game as much as if they did care.

[@note4note804]

A lot of people have this sentiment without realizing the consequences of it. It's not hard to have a random encounter start with a max damage crit one shot-ing a teammate, or a slightly too high save DC resulting in half the party dropping out of the fight, and that's because challenge ratings are at best guesses for what the game thinks a standard party can handle. Going out in a final fight or in a campaign that's suppose to be deadly all the way through is fine, but no one wants to have an unlucky first encounter with a generic enemy end with rerolling a character because you're following the rules of combat. As long as you're not afraid to kill characters at all, you should absolutely be willing to tilt probability a bit for the sake of better storytelling without throwing out the dice completely.

[@danielmbg]

I agree that in major fights, sometimes it's better to let things play out as they would, even an instant death, it happened in my game D: The problem is when the GM didn't realize that something could happen, and it ends up ruining the game. When I was GMing, there were 2 situations which would result in the most Dumb and anti-climatic deaths possible, and I do believe if any player died in those situations it would kinda ruin the game, so I had to fudge a bit. It's all a matter of balance, and knowing how and when to do it.

[@FalkFlak]

so true. Seth begins at the wrong end. If Fudging the dice is the only solution (possibly, it can happen), you and/or the game rules already failed. Fudging dice is not your "art trick", you failed at being a GM and now try to save the situation. This is how I would've handled the Black Paladin Situation: "*rolls in secret 20, 20,* ..oh shit what have I done rolling this in secret.. uh, look at this guys how funny is this both critical... I think I better reroll it this time" - maybe my players even like the overdramatic death scene with that dice result, so I don't reroll. This is not a situation where fudging is anywhere NEAR a legit solution. Often it's bad GMs masking their incapability. They're doing this for themself. This is not about how to fudge right but being a better GM and see this things coming.

[@eadee4910]

​@@note4note804 That's a problem of random encounters (and the system used). As a rule of thumb I recommend this: If a PC is about to die ask yourself: - did the player make a choice to endanger the PC in this scene that led to his demise? Give the party a chance to save him if appropriate, with open die rolls but let the PC die if they fail (Neither fleeing nor surrendering against a powerful opponent IS such a choice). - is the PC is dying just because of some wacky game mechanic without the player making a single decision (like a critical hit from an enemy that isn't supposed to be a real threat)? Don't let them roll for saving their comrade in the first place. Offer them to save their comrade without a roll if they in turn retreat, surrender or sacrifice some resources (healing potions or whatever). - is the PC dying just because you didn't give them a chance to make a decision in the first place? Shame on you, you monster. Sending snipers against PCs without any hint or redshirt is not okay. Sure, if they meet some powerful individual who is known to be protected by snipers and piss them off without posing any future value to this person it is fair game that the snipers are used, but even then you should give the players a die roll to spot the snipers and take cover (rolled in the open). tl;dr: - If the players screw up by making bad decisions: give them the chance to roll their way out of it, with the risk of PC-death. - If a PC is about to die because of bad luck: give the players the chance to save themselves with a decision not involving any roll. - If a PC is about to die because you didn't give them a chance to make a decision or a roll: overthink your approach to GMing, maybe you should change it or maybe someone else should be the GM.

[@hunterkarr]

I need help developing something to play with my kids. I’m not into medieval fantasy and don’t want to use the cumbersome mechanics of D&D. I like the Xtreme Dungeon Mastery ruleset as recommend by Professor Dungeon Master‘s channel but I’m still finding it hard to get started. I think the main problem is I’ve never actually played an RPG. I can’t even watch streams. I think they’re boring. But I this the game has potential.

[@deadmanseltzer1233]

I am so happy you didn't adjust the audio or anything for the skit, it made me so happy. I just love that skit.

[@greenfkt]

1) Game style. 2) System. 3) Player expectations. These are in my experience the three decisive criteria that should be consulted before answering this ever ongoing question for each individual game. 1) Have you ever asked yourself, how satisfying Star Wars would have felt, if Luke Skywalker would have been zapped to ashes by the first blaster shot of the first Stormtrooper that he encountered when entering the Death Star? Sure, we had all this prequel world building somewhere, and then Luke's backstory and motivation, and then the first steps of his Hero's Journey with mentor and allies and threshhold guardians and all. But though everybody knows that Stormtrooper can't hit the floor if jumping out of the window, well... this time they just roled high, right? What a great and fulfilling narrative. On the other hand, remembering that wonderful time at the pool hall, when your much better opponent randomly banged the 8 ball around the table for 30 minutes, so you could catch up, to have a "thrilling" end game instead of just letting you loose in dignity? Equally fulfilling, wasn't it? Why do I tell you this? Well, just make up your mind what you want to do with your time and then DO IT. There is no "right" way to do it. There is only not knowing what you want and then beeing disappointed when the waiter serves you what you ordered. It is a matter of taste - and these are poor basis for a discussions, right? 2) There are these wonderful d20 systems that dominate the market, that give us a hell of a time with there unpredictable, utterly mad dice results and make us laugh and joke around and what not, with 10% of every little sub-task our protagonists try resulting in either catastrophic failure or over-the-top success ('Lift from the back, Rogar!'). If you choose such a game, you choose it deliberately for that sake, right? You didn't just buy all that expensive hardcovers because Matt Mercer has them on KZbin? If you are in for somewhat realistic and predictable results you would play GUPRS or another several-dice-game with more down-to-earth outcome. You are aware why the mathematicians call the Gaussian the "normal" distribution? Try to understand the games you could play, then make a deliberate and informed decision. 3) If your player hands you a written backstory including ten fully fleshed-out NPCs, a hand drawn and coloured picture of her/his character and wishlist for character arcs and personality development during the campaign, does she/he whants to play a game of chance or narrate a story? Likewise, if your player brings three premade characters from the basic rulebook to session zero, asks you, which one he/she should play and declares the others to be backup in case of character death, and opens a can of beer to be ready for the brawl, what is this player expecting?

[@eliasvernieri]

i said it before, and i said it again... it all depend on the table and playstyle ... Each table should define the rol of the DM. In some they could decide that the DM is entrusted to change dices, and in others tables that could be outside their role. Personally i don't EVER fudge dices. i just not roll them if there is a "force" result.

[@HandOvDoom2112]

The battle with the Black Paladin is one of my favorite scenes ever.

[@marathuzula9024]

Social Contract theory is so important these days!!

[@XX-sp3tt]

Except the DM isn't role playing hired actors armed with rubber swords.

[@dirtriderxr]

I don’t fudge often but my favorite was this time when, mostly the dice were going against the party to the point that half of them was down and those who were up where low hp. The healer (who was at like 15hp) was being hit and I rolled a crit and 18 damage before the double. So I told them they got hit for 14 damage and then it was their turn and they were able to get some of the others up. With that one moment they were able to turn a unsatisfying tpk to a epic story of snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. Which is much more satisfying in my opinion. 😊

[@pheanox3413]

That really was one of my favorite skits of yours, totally worth re-using.

[@theovermynd3930]

These are all amazing pieces of advice (OG viewer here, I appreciate that you kept the old skit, it was always a good one). I keep many of your videos in the "Educational Videos" section of my RPG Discord, i very rarely come across anything you say that I don't agree with.

[@Oleg-dp2fh]

Hey Seth, I have been watching your channel intensely for over a month now and having a lot of fun! I learned a lot and some things I knew I started to understand better. More importantly I grew to value my current gaming group I DM for even more. Also ordered me some Traveller books under your influence 😁 Thank you so much for your work!

[@SSkorkowsky]

Happy to be of help. Hope you enjoy Traveller.

[@RobinBaggett]

As a DM, I don't personally fudge my dice rolls and my players know that. I do it because I want to develop a sense of trust with my players. That being said, I have learned when and when NOT to roll dice. Putting too much power in the roll of a dice too often can really make for a bad session and upsetting consequences. As the DM, I have the power to not roll in a situation or to give my players advantage or disadvantage. Yes, it is still really hard to handle certain situations and fudging for most (especially new DMs) can be super helpful to a game but I just prefer not to, especially since when I just started DMing I would only fudge to get the advantage on my players, or against a specific annoying player. That was really stupid of me and I decided to just go a different route with controlling and adjusting encounters. The goblin sees you are down, so it knows you are not a big threat, it moves on. But sometimes, "the earth elemental steps on your head, to make sure you are dead".

[@coda821]

This is one reason I really like the idea of vitality and wound penalty system. Injuries become a real manageable thing. Players get a visceral comprehension, if the damage isn't always measured in points.

[@MercSet1]

I remember both the first video AND the skit. I also loved that skit. Thanks for keeping it mate. It really demonstrates the point of keeping the game interesting. EDIT: Also note. I feel like many of these points have been made in previous videos. But it''s still good to have it condensed

[@minklynx]

This is my favorite so far of the videos you've made, and that is really saying something. I love your videos. I run a couple of west marches games, and last year, we had to let a dm go because he couldn't grasp the idea of allowing players to fail. it was heartbreaking because he was a friend and great storyteller, but when choices have no consequences, things quickly dissolve as the narrative tension is lost. I love being nice to my players. I am known to be a sweetheart gm. I also roll 20s more than statistics say is possible (usually every third roll or so). So I fudge the dice a lot. I tell my players I do. And they know it is only ever in their favor. But they never go without feeling challenged. And the risk of consequence, even death, is always present.

[@emielpeper9248]

Boy am I glad I downloaded the original video. Seriously, sad to hear it's taken down since I love putting on your vids for background noise when trying to sleep and that video was one of my favorites :'(

[@lordroyalnightmare]

Lucky you... I really liked that video as well. It's like when Puffin Forest took down and replaced the rules lawyer video. I understand each of their reasoning, but I really don't think taking down the original video is necessary. It's like the discussion I think Nostalgia Critic had about George Lucas and the original cut of Star Wars. Yeah the new edited version may be more to the creator's taste and style, but seeing the original shows how they got where they are, and I think that's important.

[@bigblue344]

You would fudge dice also when your party kills monsters way above their level with no preparation but ends up getting nearly killed by a couple of goblins they saw down the road.

[@coda821]

Might want to try a different system too. Ignoring CR's and teaching players to choose their battles, while all battles are more dangerous. That could make it really cinematic.

[@garthenar]

I have a hard time fudging my dice rolls because my players know they're in trouble when I swear after a dice roll.

[@cmdrtransrights9015]

Aaaah it makes me so happy to see that bit with the black paladin again!

[@Raktus]

I'm against Fudging from both sides, the dice determine the whims of the world and should always be obeyed. I remember I was running a game once where the party was all sitting in a tavern near a window and one of the PC's was a rather important figure in the kingdom. The adventure I had planned was going to be one of assassination and political intrigue that would all begin with an NPC throwing a rock with Darkness cast on it being thrown through a window. Rolled a Nat 1 on the die... and instead of a fight where certain aspects of the story would have been revealed... the PC's booked it out of town and I changed the entire adventure on the fly to accommodate them laying low and trying to figure out what happened... turned into a cultist mystery in a small town outside the capital. I guess I also disagree with the Black Knight example. In the famous words of Dolph Lundgren, "If he dies, he dies." If it's only epic when the PC's crit, then why let the NPC's crit at all? The other party members were fine to get downed by the Black Knight in whatever way he rolled but not the last guy? I'd argue that if you are running your games in the same world, getting one shot by the Black Knight continues a legend of this unkillable NPC badass that the PC's have experience and reason to be afraid of... and the added time not spent fudging numbers gives them time to consider their actions next time or discuss what to do next (whether that be a new game or new characters). The rules and the dice are the things I believe should remain immutable. T he world and the people in it are always the things that can change.

[@briangriffin9793]

And we need DM's like that from time to time. I ran a "hardcore by the book" campaign. Dice were rolled in plain view, rules were followed to the letter. We had a blast. Everyone died. They asked to run it again, and again, and a final third time before I said okay guys I am changing the campaign. But my experience was the same as Seth's... we went back to what we used to do.

[@Observer29830]

"the dice determine the whims of the world and should always be obeyed". No, they don't. The God of DnD world is ALWAYS the DM, not the plastic cube. The dice are only there to add variance and because they're fun to roll. They're a tool. People who treat them as gospel always reminded me of dice goblins, who roll the bones and say: "Nyessssss! The clickety-clacks have spoken! And so it shall be done!"

[@SingeScorcher]

To this day the "Black Paladin" skit is my favorite of yours, regularly come back just for it.

[@raizinhell3096]

And a top 5 best call of cthulhu scenarios I would love to see that!

[@mkang8782]

I've been GMing for about 40 years, and I am pretty much in agreement with everything you said, *especially* about trust and communication.

[@johanneskaiser8188]

Thanks for the enhanced version. Especially for keeping the skit in there. Too good for oblivion. :) Failing forward is a nice idea and some systems even have rules built in for that, by allowing to fail but still get something out of it. But for any other system I think it's probably a good rule of thumb to only do that when the players fails by a small margin (let's say up to 2 points on a d20) or the effect of the failure would be instant death or otherwise severely harmful to the player's enjoyment. A thing I personally fudge is disabling 1HK on bosses. No matter how much damage the party does, the boss will alsways drop to 1 HP instead of dying instantly, unless up to that hit the PCs been handed the short end of the stick, in which case it's fine to save their lives. Explanation? In my Dark Heresy game, the player of the assassin found out pretty quickly that if he just boosted is Ballistic Skill by beelining, even his starter weapon could onehit most bosses on a solid roll. So he did. And for obvious reasons that is boring for everyone involved, save for the really short burst of laughter when the boss drops like a wet towel in second one. (For the math-obsessed people here: with a good attack and damage roll, he does 32 points of damage on average, while even bosses in the current stage of the game have a total damage reduction of about 8 and up to 20 HP.) And for the same reason I usually try to keep my bosses alive until they had heast had one turn, as I have a habit of rolling bad for their initiative so they sometimes need a bit of life support to be anything else than a paper cutout.

[@nes819]

Love that skit. Nostalgia's a nice whay to start the day.

[@zendikarisparkmage2938]

Failing Forward is an interesting idea that I want to try applying sometime. But I wonder, can there be such a thing as Succeeding Backward? Like, you successfully bribe the guard, but some other NPC saw you do it. Or you kill the giant, but it falls on you, dealing a small amount of damage (since the fight was too easy).

[@TheBayzent]

You could do that, but I rather approach it differently. If the player is taking relatively long in bribing the guard, for example, I start rolling extra die for if a patrol comes around and catches them, and if they are spotted. I don't make the giant one because it is annoying to have won a fight just to get 5 or 6 d8 bludgeoing damage, it will make your players think you are being petty because you wanted to win and encourages DM vs Player mentality. At that point it isn't that different from "Rocks fall, evwrybody dies". Adding some returning raiding parties on the other hand shortly before the giant dies works pretty well.

[@sinkmonster1299]

Powered by the apocalypse is pretty close to this with partial successes, you can succeed, fail (fail forward in this system) or partial, where something goes wrong or you dont get the result you fully wanted, its a great time.

[@brianlawson3757]

Thanks for changing my mind about fudging rolls as a DM. I'm totally new to the game and I asked a seasoned DM about running games. He mentioned fudging dice rolls and I reacted in the opposite because I'm too honest for my own good too often. This video softened my viewpoint and I realize what he was trying to convey to me now.

[@ghosty918]

I really hope you tell your players that you will fudge dice, unlike the advice from this video. Fudging is fine, if players are aware of and accepting of it being allowed.

[@l1ghtd3m0n3]

The black Paladin bit was great. Glad you kept it.

[@LordDukane]

I did love that skit. :) You play the same way I do. I'd love to see what some of your games are like.

[@markadkins1842]

I have a spoken agreement with my players about when and HOW I will fudge dice. Basically, there are three important parts: First, I promise to rescue your PC from Death due to bad dice rolls. This protection applies to character death only, so PCs can be captured, lose valuable gear, or suffer major injuries as a result - but I will spare their character. Special note: this protection applies only to PCs, not other characters. Meaning, I will kill your animal companion or familiar if the dice roll that way. Second, this protection does NOT apply on "Boss Fight Night." During major story confrontations, the protection is removed completely. Third, and most important: "Stupidity can always be fatal." If you're doing something dumb because you think that I will swoop on to rescue you, I will enjoy every second when the dice inevitably betray you. All of my players know this agreement, and it has worked really well for years!

[@ArawnNox]

I generally have the attitude of "I will do my best for the players enjoyment, but I will not save them when they do something stupid." Example: I had players start a firefight in the middle of an enemy stronghold because one of the players wasn't getting his way in the RP dialogue. Well, two of the party members died in that fight, but they had a blast doing it because it had several memorable moments, like blowing up powder kegs and wrestling with an enemy over a revolver. I used those deaths to egg the players on later when they found the crucified bodies of their former characters outside the BBEG's stronghold.

[@KickyFut]

BBEG... Beautiful Bishi with Engaged Girlfriends? Nice!😁

[@kalebrowland5891]

I feel really immature about this but when you asked how often should I fudge I giggled a little bit

[@rpeterson9182]

Wish you’d make a playlist on your channel of videos you’ve taken down. I loved them even though you find them painful to watch. They gave me the courage to DM my first games.

[@rpeterson9182]

Since you highlighted my comment does that mean you’ll make a playlist on your channel of your older videos you’ve taken down?!?!

[@32ShadowWolf]

That was Awesome Seth, The Black Paladin bit was done well bud :D

[@archonfett]

biggest fudge I made was the party wanted to go after a dragon, a mid range red, it rolled all 6's on it's initial breath attack, odds be damned, and unfortunately only the wizard made his save nobody had the hp to survive the hit, so I halved before the save making the damage survivable but still brutal, they managed to kill it before it got another breath weapon shot

[@Karajorma]

I have a simple rule about fudging, I do it if it will make the game more fun for the players, but not if it will only make the game more fun for me.

[@billthecanuck]

i personally roll everything in the open, dice rolls land where they land and the main reason i do that is i hate feeling like i'm hiding behind a gamescreen and i find it actually blocks my field of vision as i like to leanback and relax alot when i'm dm'ing, which puts the dm screen between me and the centre of the table where the battle mat usually is. I tried using a dm screen when i frst started dm'ing and quickly just put it to the side as i didnt like how it obstructs my vision.

[@oblivious8868]

I'm so happy you kept the Black Paladin skit! 😁

[@note4note804]

I find it fun to keep a kind of tally of fudge saves for sessions depending on the type of session planned. Give each player an amount depending on how hard the fight or encounter is, and usually play it up as the character barely surviving a deadly blow or getting just enough damage to push that barely dead creature to death. They never have to know, and because it's a finite amount for each player it serves to save each person only so much before mistakes or brazen stupidity gets them killed.

[@potatoheadpokemario1931]

There was another skit from that old video I liked, or at least I think it was that video where they were railroaded into a planet the players disliked, you should revive that skit

[@scottgrant1635]

In a recent session, the PCs were fighting a boss-level baddie with minions. Before the battle, I set aside some minions with a mid-level captain, with the plan for them to show up after 4 or 5 rounds. The battle was going badly for the PCs - not due to die rolls, but because their tactics were poor. One PC was dead, two others on the brink, and the BBEG hadn't taken any damage. When round 4 came along, I brought in the "reinforcements" but when they entered, the captain said, "it's time to put an end to your lies" and sided with the PCs. Their involvement balanced the battle. It was still gripping and engaging, and they were able to defeat the BBEG in spectacular fashion. This is a case where I had planned a fudge - When I designed the encounter, I knew that it would be a huge challenge, and depending upon the PC tactics, they could easily gain the upperhand. However, because one PC went Leroy Jenkins, it threw off the balance. That PC died, but it wasn't right to penalize the others for the poor decisions of one. Had the PCs planned and executed better, by the time the reinforcements showed up, it would have continued the challenge and the drama.

[@coda821]

Could being captured also be an option? Of course this creates other problems.

[@Blackmuseops]

Def your best skit. Love the series idea! Keep up the good work Seth!

[@tukman16]

Love Seth videos I have a problem to set my mind over this. I'd like to have a real experience as a player without any fudging in the game to set an opinion over it. The thought I can't get through is the idea that people would like to be lied to to play a game. On my current game as a player, I already lost interest in encounters because all the players are wearing plot armor. As a DM, I'm very clear to my players that I don't fudge. This is a game about trust. So my speech is something like "guys, I'm calculating all this shit with charts and modifiers for terrains, waves, etc. so you have fair but challenging encounters is some way. This may eventually backfire. Bare with me on this" and that is it. So far, my experience is that if you have a methodology to set encounters, your chance of getting something wrong is decreased, even tho it will always be there. We all need to be mature to face that fact. I think this is better than assuming fudging is necessary instead of coming clean about it. I really like the falling forward maneuver. I'm taking note of that and try to think of how I can apply it to that Black Paladin scenario (the original one, with the PC being nuked)

[@ZeroKitsune]

Players often don't want what they think they want. Not saying anything about your style, just that people definitely 100% can sometimes have a more enjoyable experience by being lied to than by getting exactly what they think they want. It's not even a tabletop game exclusive thing, it's a common practice in video game design.

[@tukman16]

@@ZeroKitsune Statistically, I can't doubt you. Every big TTRPG channel in youtube says the same about fudging, that is sometimes needed to keep the fun or pace. For some reason I find this morally challenging. Maybe in the future I'll get to the same conclusion as everyone else but I'm willing to try my method some more before that. I even state the DC before players roll so we are sure I'm not tempted hahaha.

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

Mmmm fudge Seriously though, it depends on the game. Some games will tell you the rules are only a guide. Fun is key. I don’t think it’s cheating to have fun for all

[@luislaracuente]

Yes! I've been looking for the original video for days and sad I couldn't find it. Glad I watched this and enjoy the epic Black Paladin battle again!

[@joelmaynard5590]

I have been a long time watcher but I have only started dm'ing last month and because of the lockdown we have to do it over discord and other software programs and one thing that I hate is that I can't fudge my dice rolls because my players hate it. It is really limiting on how I can adjust combat difficulty on the fly and what I had hoped was a nail-biting set piece with lots of tension is either a faceroll because they get lucky and I am not or it becomes punishingly hard and not at the intended difficulty. I love your videos Seth and they were what inspired me in the first place to start my own campaign even if not everything is going as I would like.

[@JamesCorp]

I have personally witnessed your supernatural terrible dice rolls on roll20!

[@SSkorkowsky]

There's two reasons for this. 1: When I'm running a game, my dice are incredible. It's part of why my players told me to go back to rolling behind the screen. But when I play... they're incredible in the opposite direction. I just can't succeed on a roll. 2: Dice-rolling simulators are just one step away from Skynet or Cylon rule. They hate be because I'm on to their little scheme and try to thwart me whenever they can.

[@danacoleman4007]

@@SSkorkowsky I have the exact same problem

[@JamesCorp]

@@SSkorkowsky Lol, well hopefully you'll have better luck in Delta Green....

[@SSkorkowsky]

@@JamesCorp Given my terrible dice rolls when playing Masks of Nyarlathotep a few weeks back, I have no reason to think I'll make a single roll for Delta Green. This is my curse. I accept it with open arms and gritted teeth.

[@Mr2Syderguy]

I have to say I really enjoy your content Seth, I feel like it has really helped me become a better GM. I also love the skits, very entertaining. Thanks for the content you make sir!

[@ts25679]

I've just had a terrible idea. What I'm thinking is that the skill challenge to avoid instant death uses up your death saves were each failure is akin to a failed save. This way you still give the player an out to save themselves, but you keep the tone and sense of danger. What do you guys think?

[@mad636man]

Hahahah that montage with the black paladin. Hahahahhahahhahah ❤️❤️❤️

[@weswyleven9540]

Thanks for saving that skit. It's one of my favorites and an example I use regularly.

[@ope6934]

When fudging is ok : when your underestimated the power of the players and your boss would have looked like a lvl1 golblin trying to take on a dragon... When it's not : when your player get an insane roll, you ask for another to see how lucky that shot was, gets another insane roll, and then rolls perfect damage : yep that will be the most epic scene of that character's life.

[@ghosty918]

Whats wrong with the boss going doing hard? It makes the players feel like utter badasses.

[@Skullkan6]

One of the best examples I've had to do for this is the "if they all go insane they die" scene at the end of Dead Man Stomp. This was actually my fault as an inexperienced DM with San rolls, but I pretty much had them be able to put down leeroy and then the police, hearing all of the gunfire, came in and opened fire on what were clearly walking corpses. It landed them in jail, but their federal agent friend from the module helped them out of it. Also one of the PC's got to grab the trumpet which has become a sort of "sought after mcguffin" for the cult that killed the friend who set up the wards to the cabin back in Edge of Darkness. The best part is the cult has sent a SINGLE guy after them, who looks like Herr Scarr from preacher and showed up to a funeral wearing a white suit. The guy keeps dying and coming back from nowhere wearing another white suit, the bodies crumbling into dust. Recently he burgled one of the PC's houses and knocked them out with a successful blow that knocked them out. This was a case where I COULD have fudged the dice like I had when attacks did too much damage and wouldn't have been fun (looking at you Call of Cthulhu Rats), but NOT fudging down the damage meant that we got an entirely new unexpected plotline of trying to recover the stolen mythos tome from this thief who just got a lucky roll.

[@braddoc4087]

I play online and use a Dice rolling program, no fudging at all, it's all hardcore! Also, playing Warhammer fantasy/Dark Heresy sorta helps with the mood of the game

[@Zakiel97]

also play in an online game currently, and it is indeed hardcore. Our pally died twice in the span of 10 minutes (ingame), we brought him back since we're high level but shit can escalate real fast when every roll is open.

[@TheBayzent]

I thjnk it depends on the mood of the adventure. I don't fudge at all in Warhammer either, or even Ravenloft, because you are supposed to have to roll characters all the time. I tried to fudge a minimum with ToA, so I told my players to minmax like crazy, and I still had 2 TPKs in that campaign.

[@braddoc4087]

@@TheBayzent While I admit some games are more deadly than others, I never understood the concept of 'scrap-characters' that you just make in droves and dies as quickly...I mean why bother, I'll just add a bar besides the name and keep playing with the same guy

[@doompocalypse842]

so happy the skit lives on. the black paladin with glowing weapons became a staple npc and my players fear his devastating critical hits

[@calunsagrenejr]

I personally dont care that my character can't be hurt/dead through plot armor/fudging in a campaign. The DM always fudges anyway, be it by misremembering rules, ruling in favor of the players, not playing the monsters in the most tactically optimized way, etc. I just adjust my expectations and actions accordingly. Just as long as I still retain variety across all my games, I'm still good.

[@kylestark1800]

So glad you kept the Black Paladin in this. Epic AF!

[@c_bass1971]

Most of us aren’t skilled enough to fudge well. And fudging poorly is not fun for players. This is a tool for experts in my view.

[@blinddog4288]

Always an enjoyable watch. I've given "thumbs up" to every video you've made. What I do in the case of the Black Knight crit is to make it a normal hit and then just up the knights HP, AC, or give him a special ability to make him a little harder to kill. In the case of the fumble pit roll, I do like you have suggested or allow for multiple attempts but it the follow rolls are bad, its fate. The difference is I will put the outcome of what happens on the player. I will have the player tell me if his/her character dies, is maimed, comes back later...

[@k12274]

great video once again. that skit got me once again. please do an RPG review of Apocalypse World 2e some time, i'd love to see what you think about it.

[@RPGImaginings]

Thank you. There are a lot of nuances to this issue. I've found that the "adamantly anti-fudging" crowd falls into three perspectives: 1) dice drives story-telling in games (I disagree) or 2) It is fully possible to plan/GM a mistake-free game (I disagree) or 3) Deeper trust issues than dice rules.

[@ZeroKitsune]

Oh after reading through comment sections a bunch of tabletop videos, I 100% agree with this

[@jamesmedeiros2471]

I personally always roll openly. I fudge by adjusting enemy hp, number of enemies, and other more abstract details. As dm I control the world so I use that to help create a better story and allow the dice to fall as they may.

[@davidioanhedges]

The DM who says they never fudge, always roll in the open, don't use a DM screen... either adjusts the monster stats on the fly ... or the few players left die very very often ...

[@JedediahCyrus]

Mmmm fudge...... I honestly really enjoyed your last video on this topic but glad you were able to give it a whole video. So glad you kept the black paladin bit!

[@marcar9marcar972]

I remember this skit. It’s a really good one

[@alexrheinheart6393]

Guy from 12 Angry Men on the preview)

[@blackbarnz]

I've developed physical & pyschological manipulative tactics in order to fudge a die when I potentially need to. It took me sometime before I realized I was using severa differentl tactics in a game session. I started to compare GMing to a magic show and I was the main attraction. My GM persona changed and my story telling style was enriched. I had to put myself out there a little bit more, I had to really get into characters, which are things you're supposed to do anyway but thinking of myself a magician I realized how important a tool it was to create the illusion and keep my players minds on the game/story. It's a big act man. I started to get out from behind the screen, making rolls out in the open when there was little consequences, building trust. Positioning myself at the table in a certain way or things in the room or even on things on the table to make seem like an inconvenience to roll out in the open. Roll out in the open all night with a lot of energy in my NPC's and when a potential dangerous challenge is coming up feign fatigue and go sit behind the screen. Show your players dead enemy's stats which you didn't fudge any rolls. Don't make like you are trying to show them the stats. When they search the body just pass em npc sheet and have them copy the treasure, when they do they might notice a stat relevant to any earlier roll and do the math quick realize you played it square. Talking to myself is tactic I use, as if GMing is equivalent to solving a series of physics equations and memorizing penal codes. Check you're notes for no reason at all on occasion, whilst you're playing. I keep extra dice on the table behind the screen to roll into, if for some reason my players want to see the roll I made behind the screen (it happens) I lift the screen and point to the dice which backs my claim whatever the case maybe, or if I don't have that option time to fumble something on the table, fall off my chair, what ever it takes. Slight of hand, misdirection, are your allies. Go all in. GM Poker face all game every game. What's fudged is fudged and never spoken. Never admit to fudging a roll, not even on your deathbed. The only problem is if you play with friends you see often your GM persona may slip into your relationship with that friend. Not that it's a bad thing it's just a thing.