Shōgun Clip - “Lord Toranaga Sees A Map of the World” (2024)

[@Ved000000]

"Why not just split the heavens between ourselves and China?" Because that's Stellaris, this is Europa Universalis.

[@staubsauger2305]

Because tech matters, and the West was far ahead of the East at that time.

[@pokari-u4k]

@@staubsauger2305 The same is true now. Japan simply copied Western technologies but failed to make their own. Modern China is not even as good at copying as Japan.

[@CochoSGO]

@@staubsauger2305 I wouldn't claim that until at least the 1700.

[@staubsauger2305]

@@CochoSGO If you were to make that claim. amigo, then you'd have to fall back to saying the Western system of governance was better, with more entrepreneurial vigor expanding European influence (mostly beneficial but not without downsides too) compared to China's strong centralizeation of control and the social norms that enforce that (and still do) and restrict timely responses to events.

[@CochoSGO]

@@staubsauger2305 I sense a strong bias on your answer, however, I'll try to make my case clear. The mighty Asian Empires achieved centralization WAY sooner than the European kingdoms, and this centralization was a key factor to their growth. However, both centralizations were achieved with different political and economical resources. For example, the Ottoman Sultans steamrolled the mediterranean on the shoulders of the turkick, islamic, persian and helenic political traditions and the control of the silk road. The Ming Emperors could count on their vast and milenarian state aparatus and confusianism. Their political systems were made keep the multiple nations of the land empire in check while profiting out of stablished trade routes (slik, spices, porcelain, etc) The modern European nation-states appeared roughly 200 years later, combining the germanic, christian and grecoroman traditions in the intrest of kings to weaken the feudal lords by empowering the newborn burgoise class to create their own state aparatus. These new nation states, absolute monarchies, couldn't make their riches on land empires (the bloody European wars of the 1600 attest to this) but the conquest and colonization of America. There they found the riches to eventually overpower the stablished asian empires. Remember that Asian Empires had compases and ships capable of oceanic travel WAY before than in Europe, but they didn't have the economical need or the political resources to expand beyond their limits. By the 1700 the Ming Emperor still mocks British trade goods, by 1800 the British force him to trade with them, by the second half of that century the rest of European powers (and even a local power such as Japan) would have bases all over the country and all sorts of concessions. But then we are talking about Burgeoise states, not Absolute Monarchies. That's also why the British and the Dutch had such an advantage over other powers of their time!

[@nathanlawson313]

This part was in the book. Toranaga also made a big deal about Japan being so small on the world map. At first he refused to believe it was true.

[@Jedislayer19]

Which is totally relatable. Who would ever imagine that their home, the purpose of their entire existence, was so small compared to others? Pride demands skepticism at the very least.

[@kylepessell1350]

To be fair, Japan is a much larger island chain than people generally realize. So it's understandable that he would be awed at the scale of the world in comparison.

[@TheBooban]

No, that was in the movie, the King and I.

[@heterosapiens_sapiens]

Oddly enough, not a Japanese example per se, but in Ptolemy's map, Sri Lanka is shown as about half the size of India, which is tens of times larger than it really is

[@globalist1990]

You do realise Portugal was present since 1553? And they took Japanese to Portugal and back?

[@Taphosthewarlock]

"To Vanquish our common enemies" into "To enlist you against his enemies" is a purposeful mistranslation.

[@georgiastamos667]

While a mistranslation, I think she’s just reading between the lines, bc shortly before this he saw the Japanese as savages, idt at this point he respects them really, I think she reads him correctly that he’s just trying to use them against the Portuguese (at this point, later on he def respects them)

[@Ramschat]

@@georgiastamos667 If a translator did that these days they would so be fired though xD Translators are supposed to translate as accurately as possible and leave such deductions to the listener, or they might suggest it after translating the actual words spoken.

[@aqswd6825]

@@Ramschat Have you read any of Clavell's Asian saga? translators mistranslating things is pretty common in it.

[@johnroscoe2406]

@@aqswd6825 Be that as it may, what Ramschat said is still correct.

[@ethyr]

If anything, it's a mistranslation by the subtitles. She says 敵と戦うのに殿の力添えをいただく為と申す. it's very respectful and still gets across that he's asking for their help to defeat the enemy.

[@kriddius]

That "unless I win" struck deep at Toranaga's Samurai pride. Fighting against impossible odds and dying gloriously in battle for one's beliefs is like war porn for Samurai

[@RovingPunster]

The prior version of that part of the scene was better ... when Toranaga crowed "YES, you name the ONE mitigating factor ... VICTORY !". Toshiro Mifune NAILED that scene, whereas the remake fell flat in comparison.

[@RaeneYT]

"Is like war porn for samurai" that slaps

[@RobertStewart-i3m]

​@@RovingPunster I've seen the original full length one, and read the book. I thought this version's was pretty good; the smile

[@WebShaman01]

@@RovingPunster That's because the "new" Anjinsan is...a milquetoast.

[@anbfm129]

He really went 'Nah, I'd win' against a country

[@chrishamilton7516]

Can you imagine that. “Hey isolated kingdom. Turns out two ENORMOUS, MILITARISTIC, GLOBAL HOLY EMPIRES have split the ENTIRE world between them and you fall in the realm of this one that’s a short jaunt outside your borders. Anything else you’d like to know?”

[@RoyalFusilier]

"Oh, also, just to make sure, you knew the world was round, right...?"

[@BastiatC]

@@RoyalFusilier like a fruit

[@jimheimerl1637]

@@BastiatC”The world is cube-shaped, like a watermelon? This is… intriguing.”

[@decimusdecius7858]

Where i have seen this before...

[@pfl95]

this is funny because spain also wanted to conquer china and it would have been impossible for either spain or portugal to conquire either china or japan at the time

[@gabebenson6105]

I prefer the original context of the “unless I win” line. Originally he was telling them how the Dutch were in revolution against the Spanish King who claimed the Low Countries as lawful Spanish territory. Torunaga then goes off that and asks how they could fight against their lawful rulers, how there is no justification to rebel against divinely instituted authority - something Torunaga as such a leader would be familiar with implementing in governance. Blackthorn said that there was one justification to rebelling against authority, no matter who put it in place. “And what is that justification?” “You win.”

[@suntear26]

Thank you, this! I dislike they changed the context for the movie. Even if the contraints of making a movie forced certain sacrifices, it very much changes how we view Toranaga and his relationship to Blackthorn

[@mystriddlery]

Might is right

[@declancain2988]

The Spanish did have legit claims on the Low Lands as they were Habsburg territory through marriage and the Habsburgs married into the Spanish Royal family henceforth by inheritance the Low Lands were Spanish and the German Regions were Austrian. Just saying but yeah I like this version you showed more.

[@gabebenson6105]

@@declancain2988 Yes, I wasn't trying to cast retroactive doubt on Spanish claims in the Lowlands. I mean, as I understand it, the Dutch national anthem still has a line praising the Spanish King since they never got around to changing the hymn they had from way back when

[@declancain2988]

@@gabebenson6105 ah ok my bad then.

[@romilrh]

One of Shogun's biggest achievements was to make dialogue scenes with a translator actually interesting, because the translator is a real, complex character with her own beliefs and motivations. You watch and listen closely for any time she might smoothen someone's words or even mis-translate them on purpose. Scenes like this go from tedious and boring to compelling and even intense.

[@acptelford1307]

Of course the translator has been changed to a female Jesuit priest solely for the film. The book is so much better.

[@llamas3655]

@@acptelford1307 LMFAO, you did not read the book.

[@shoopdawhoop8730]

Good point. Never really thought about it until now.

[@notacrook140]

@@acptelford1307You clearly did not read the book. This is Mariko-San, a huge part of the book.

[@jemtai7770]

@@acptelford1307 ....ok, first time for me to see someone pulling a "book was better" line when he hasn't read the book. This character is straight from the book. No changes. Like seriously dude, wtf.

[@asquishyjellyfish5431]

her face when she realized he's serious, went from being prideful and doubtful, turned into real fear of something greater that can potentially destroy her homeland.

[@TheBooban]

I think she is the prettiest Japanese girl I’ve ever seen.

[@galileufigaro]

@@TheBooban agree

[@the_sad_wallet1553]

Not just that, but she is a Christian convert, which explains why she can translate for him (technically they’re supposed to be speaking Portuguese, not English in this scene). Her faith and education comes from the very Portuguese priests who he has now told her seek to own and exploit her country for profit. That’s why she didn’t believe him at first, her world is being turned on it’s head

[@ferhatozdemir2536]

​@@the_sad_wallet1553exactly great britian betraying its own christian roots just for gaining an advantage over portugal

[@infinitelink]

​@ferhatozdemir2536 betraying roots? They just didn't want to be invaded or destroyed. Undermining "missionaries" who sought murder of difference & engaged in systematic deception in order to not only unjustly conquer but then also culturally genocide other nations isn't "betraying their Christian roots." Britain would have suffered destruction without seeking advantages, alliances, etc in the same manner Japan would have suffered without the intervention of this man to warn them about the real nature of these empires. Britain even grew not quite by conquests (ordinarily), but via accepting petitions for protection or accepting to be a third party between warring factions, and then fighting corruption, publishing prices to help the poor, and building institutions like hospitals and libraries...all quite the contrast. Further along, when efforts were implemented to block humanitarian parties...Christian Brits would expose them, and it caused uproars back home. (This felled the great private Sovereigns like the East India company.) etc etc.

[@chiefemo399]

0:39 I love how Blackthorne pauses after saying, "The Earth is round, like a fruit," to see if Torunaga would be mindblown from hearing that, and was almost disappointed to see that Torunaga seemed to already know that.

[@i-am-your-conscience]

Yet, some americans... :D

[@antontonable]

@@i-am-your-conscience Unfortunately I think it's bigger than just "some Americans".

[@Alex202]

@@antontonable a lot of ?))

[@skyworm8006]

He wouldn't have known that though, not unless the Portuguese told him. Actually it's unlikely he would've believed it since his classical Chinese education on the matter would tell him otherwise.

[@i-am-your-conscience]

@@antontonable There are statistics about flat earthers around the world.. Guess where most of them are from ;)

[@rickyhurtado]

That last line is what made Toranaga a fan of Blackthorne. Outnumbered, hopeless, and still has a winning attitude.

[@keenynman34]

In the books it's a much longer conversation. Toranaga can't believe queens rule lol

[@NickMeisher]

I read the book over 20 times. The lines are a bit off. Book shows this last line very differently with much more impact. Toranaga says something like 'How can you not be called a bandit/ronin for going against your lord?' and Blackthorne answers 'If you win'.

[@Gimpy17]

@@NickMeisher damn bud, over 20 times? that seems excessive lol

[@NickMeisher]

@@Gimpy17 Great literature like this becomes family. These books call to me to be read again over and over.

[@WhoThisMonkey]

I can't reread books, I remember them vividly and I would always know what's coming next.

[@avikmahfuz2894]

"Nah, I'd win" -Gojo blackthorne

[@greenee04]

Poor Blackthorne

[@liamwright2510]

Except Blackthorne actually won

[@maximusd26]

@@liamwright2510 his ship didn't tho

[@regidio5083]

​@@maximusd26minimal loss. He can rebuild. He won.

[@starsapphire156]

I literally thought this, was about to comment and then saw your comment. Us JJK fans are everywhere.

[@osark2487]

For those that never heard of it, that portuguese and spanish treaty really existed. It was called the treaty of "tordesillas" in spanish or "tordesilhas" in portuguese. Quite an interesting part of history covered by this series. Needles to say that the portuguese not long after, sided with england permantly against the spanish and french. A military alliance still on, in fact the longest military alliance in the world.

[@Autonomous_Automata]

Worth noting that the Portuguese/English alliance actually predates the treaty of tordesillas by over a hundred years! It’s almost 650 years old.

[@criztu]

There was no "Spanish" or "English" or "Portuguese" in those times. eg. king of Spain was Philip von Habsburg. king of Portugal was Philip von Habsburg. king of England was Philip von Habsburg. king of Naples was Philip von Habsburg. lord of the Netherlands was Philip von Habsburg. This movie is fiction, not history. I haven't read the book, but I suspect it's the same cartoon.

[@Autonomous_Automata]

​@@criztu Tl;dr: The monarchies of Spain, England, and Portugal were separate things, and are the basis for the governments of The UK, Spain, and Portugal today The monarchies of Castile and Aragon, which were two separate monarchies, were united by the marriage of king Ferdinand of Aragon and queen Isabella of Castile in the late 1400s. This created the kingdom of Spain, which is the root of the modern nation of Spain. Yes, they have a different constitution, but there is a continuity of sovereignty that dates back to this time period. The current king of Spain is legally from that same kingdom, and modern Spain is still legally the “kingdom of Spain” (a fun reminder that the king of Spain, again from that same monarchy, speaking against nazism is one of the reasons Spain did not join the axis). The Kingdom of Portugal was indeed plagued by a crisis of succession around this time in history, and the Spanish hapsburg monarchs did claim the Portuguese throne for half a century, starting in 1580, before they were rebelled against by Portuguese people and the Portuguese throne was reestablished as a separate throne under a different lineage. The treaty between the English and the Portuguese was, to my understanding, not broken during this transition in government. Nor was it broken during the 1910 revolution of Portugal during which the kingdom of Portugal was overthrown (no longer the original signatories of the treaty but claiming to be a continuation of the kingdom of Portugal) The only time a Hapsburg, or anyone on the spanish throne, had any claim to the title of “king of England” was very briefly in the mid 1500s, decades before the crisis of Portuguese succession, and was only for a couple of years, and was for a wed monarch not a regnant monarch. This was a very fraught time in the British monarchy, and led to the union of the Scottish and English thrones, but that English government has a continuation of rule from that point to the present day government in the UK (with some changes as constitutions happened) and was not the Hapsburgs. The treaty splitting the "new world" mentioned did exist, was between separate thrones, was endorsed by the pope, and was relevant to the Japanese. The treaty of alliance between Portugal and England was real, was between separate thrones, and though there are discontinuities of government between then and now, (Specifically on the portugal side) the treaty was never deemed "no longer in effect". This is indeed historical fiction, and some details are fuzzy, particularly those about Europe. Because the goal _is_ to tell a story, specifically a fictionalized version of the start of the tokugawa shogunate, but the tensions (less than a century since the protestant reformation, the fight for the new world) were very real and did influence things historically. And there are real people who served as a basis for the characters in this show, who dealt with the issues in this show. Though, of course, maybe not with these exact conversations. (Also, arguably, the French throne had a better claim to Naples than the line of Aragon (Which became the Hapsburgs), but that's a question that started wars, so let's not get into it.)

[@criztu]

​@@Autonomous_Automata I just told you that Philip von Habsburg was king of England, that's in 1558 the movie Shogun happens in 1600, when Philip 3 von Habsburg was king of Portugal and Spain.

[@Autonomous_Automata]

@@criztu None of the many people named Philip from the Hapsburg dynasty was ever regnant King of England. The Spanish throne was regnant over Portugal during the time period, hence my pointing out the use of "fuzzy" details, but the reestablishment of the Portuguese throne as a separate lineage tells you that the Portuguese did in fact seem themselves as *not spanish*, and the fact that modern governments trace themselves back to these roots tells you that it's not ludicrous to think of things in these terms.

[@Zero_Point_Energy1]

Toranaga’s like “Cancel Christmas.”

[@tuorofgondolin8235]

Well, they did turn Christmas Eve into a nation-wide date night.

[@funkymonk5805]

​@@tuorofgondolin8235 正鵠を射ててお笑いだ

[@DarkKnight69654]

😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@Kristiano100]

Which Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga’s real life counterpart) ended up doing, he outlawed Christianity in Japan and killed a lot of Catholic Japanese converts and had the rest return to Shinto and Buddhism (some remained in secret). This was during the whole “sakoku” closed country policy of isolation until America came knocking in the 1800s.

[@potato9832]

No Kentucky Fried Chicken for you!

[@stephenrandazzo220]

That unless I win was what made toranaga want blackthorn as a friend. The book series is amazing. In short you are not a patriot but a terrorist or rebel, unless you win. Then you are a hero. Justice is determined by the Victor, so is history.

[@Charlie_Ses]

Yes they completely butchered that line, lost all its meaning. The essence of the original line was that to fight a war as an insurgent is immoral; Blackthorne retorts unless one wins, which Toranaga smirks at as he recognises the truth in that. But if they can butcher such an important line in the book it makes me wonder about the rest!

[@Jedislayer19]

"TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY." - Death (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather)

[@Briselance]

"Justice is determined by the victor." Then had Nazis won WW2, their creed would have been justice? Vietnam won the Vietnam War against the US. Does that make the Communist Vietnamese regime any better per se? No. Justice is not determined by who wins or loses. Justice cares not for that.

[@Briselance]

​@@Jedislayer19 "Death... you make the mistake of ultra-materialists: As long as it's not physical, it doesn't exist nor can it have consequences. You simply limit yourself to physical touch."

[@Briselance]

​@@Charlie_Ses Fighting a war as an insurgent is immoral? How so??

[@letterman6546]

I thought first the "treaty" he was talking about was the famous treaty of Tordesillas, but he is referencing the less known treaty of Zaragoza. Love love love when they care about getting the historical facts right.

[@brianlanning836]

In the old Shogun series from the 80s, Blackthorn says it's the treaty of Zaragoza.

[@katsasgeorge]

Toranaga in this series has the most dangerous kind of intelligence a human can have. He doesn't just think outside the box, he does it and then creates a new box that includes everything the previous boxes did. When his worldview is challenged by Blackthorne, he does exactly this. The fact his mind can process such drastic changes in the way the world works compared to how it used to work, so fast, is incredible.

[@eren34558]

What would you say his IQ level is?

[@katsasgeorge]

@@eren34558 He's a chess grandmaster but his pawns are people. I'd say around that level. A cross between Moriarty and Kasparov.

[@JustKrin]

He's not 2, 3 or 10 steps ahead of everyone. It's like he's in another dimension where he can see every possible outcome and plans accordingly. Immensely intelligent and a great strategist

[@captainhomie6156]

The glazing is real

[@NikolisPontios]

Well… He studies the wind…

[@snoweefrost4412]

I don't want viewers to believe that the Japanese language lacks the detail to accurately translate what was being said by the Englishman. The Japanese translator was purposefully editorializing his speech to her lord. This is a plot element, I am positive, so please keep this detail in mind. The Japanese (and Chinese) languages have developed around a very advanced court system. The civilizations are aware of litigation, treaties, compacts, pacts, oaths, holdings, succession, claimantcy, etc.

[@tesnacloud]

Toranaga directly asks Mariko if she will be a reliable translator, and honestly translate what Blackthorne says. Or if her loyalties are divided. This directly plants in the mind of viewers the idea that Mariko COULD mistranslate for her goals and beliefs. That makes them then think in this scene that she just might be. This shifts the audiences questions from "Do the Japanese understand this?" To "Will Mariko let them understand this?"

[@suikamanti]

the translator herself is a character of the plot. not simply a device to the story. She displays complex emotions and actions, shock, anger, fear and disbelief, she even questions the hero directly as a a liar!! as if her own life depended on what shes about to translate....

[@aycoded7840]

I don't think that was a doubt

[@thedeadpoolwhochuckles.6852]

OMG! are you staying this is a television series and not found footage?

[@franktheavocado7573]

@@thedeadpoolwhochuckles.6852sarcastic asshole being sarcastic asshole, ain’t no one tryna say that lol

[@cow1816]

I've personally never thought of the shock it must have been for the Japanese to hear a port in China, Macau, was now owned by the Portuguese. I remember hearing how much of a shock it was when the UK fought against the Qing and won while taking Hong Kong, but never thought as far back as when Portugal was able to secure a port in China.

[@rehman1833]

Macau wasnt owned by the portugese, they rented it from the chinese government after being defeated by the chinese in several battles. Japanese shouldve known about this at the time because there were a lot of japanese merchants and pirates operating in the area also trading with the portugese

[@jenniturtleburger3708]

Clavell writes about that too. Tai-Pan starts with them obtaining Hong Kong. Probably my favorite book ever.

[@DaKdawg]

It must also be a shock because after unification under nobunaga the Chinese attempted to turn Japan into a vassal state, very much how the catholics are attempting through the Portuguese.

[@JuandeMariana1994]

No pasó nada. Los portugueses y españoles no estaban interesados en conquistar Japón. Lo que sucede es que esta serie parece ser que quieren convertir a los españoles y portugueses en los malos.

[@taokumura]

@@JuandeMariana1994 Even if the Portuguese and Spanish had no intention of conquering Japan, it is a fact that they conquered countries all over the world, and it is not surprising that the Japanese felt threatened.

[@stiimuli]

Dude's got a fantastic voice

[@FrizFroz]

Crazy thing is Cosmo Jarvis sounds nothing like that offscreen, he adopted this voice just for this series.

[@derekhurd7426]

@@FrizFroz He sounds like the main character in gladiator

[@Kwodlibet]

That's not a dude, that's a lady - her name is Mariko 🙃

[@highsodium1ntake]

She died end of ep 9​@@Kwodlibet

[@Argentdrinkvender]

​@derekhurd7426 yep sounds just like Russell Crowe in master and commander

[@abdulmismail]

If you haven't watched this yet. Watch it. It's phenomenal. The cast/acting. The story. The production. Everything about this is superb.

[@1526andrews]

It's fantastic. And based on a true story

[@Sledgehammer1944]

It's okay. The barbarian is a bit of a pussy though for someone who was supposedly a pirate and had a past of burning churches and people to the ground.

[@skylerrutherford9870]

This clip just got me hooked! I can't wait to see it now!

[@olegshyshkov4740]

Read the original book! The film is a piece of sh...

[@martinfiedler4317]

The colors and the charisma of the actors are no comparison to the 80s miniseries. But I have to admit, that they put a lot of work into the Japanese dialogues.

[@C.J_the_Goat]

Fun fact, when Portugal and Spain split the world where Portugal could continue East and Spain would have the West. But, they were unaware of Brazil and how far is extended east. That is why Brazil is Portugese and the rest of South America is Spanish.

[@romanbabynyuk946]

Actually, just to add some historical detail: the Portuguese were already aware of Brasil when the Treaty of Tordesilhas was signed, but kept that information from the Spanish. In fact, they pushed for the meridian to be pushed slightly westward, so that they'd be able to lay claim to Brasil, as the originally proposed by the pope meridian location would have left it entirely within Spanish control.

[@ThunderBolt-dc1xt]

This is among the most riveting tv shows I have ever seen. The culture clash alone is worth the watch, but the entire series is phenomenal. The acting, costumes, story, everything is of the highest order.

[@kcrelax3330]

Well said

[@frostneedle]

Not to mention Cosmo Jarvis spoke Japanese with much respect to the accent as possible. He made sure there is minimal British tone in his Japanese. Incredible actor! I cringe when white actors butcher Asian languages but Cosmo is on another level.

[@OzzyCoop]

@@frostneedle "I cringe when white actors butcher Asian languages" Well I mean 99% of people in his situation would butcher a language they didn't know. Which makes his approach not very realistic. You consider it "butchering" but I consider it only natural when learning such a wildly different language.

[@spicypineapple2778]

⁠@@OzzyCoopextremely good take. The other person is more concerned with being offended than how this all may play out in real life. HOWEVER, the guy learned from the source and had reasons to get good at it. It’s not surprising he can do it well when most people today aren’t putting in nearly the same effort.

[@filip9564]

@@frostneedledo u hate it when someone speaks englisg with a accent too?

[@generallytso1077]

This is a great moment in the book, but if I remember, it’s altered slightly here and I don’t know why. If this is the scene I’m thinking of it was more like Toranaga saying something like “you deserve to be wiped out for rebellion against your masters” And Blackthorne responded “unless I win.” And then Tornaga smiles and says “ you’ve named the one exception.”

[@ProzacStylings]

Stories are often updated to get the right emotional response from the audience. Today, in the West, loyalty to a country and governmental structure is viewed more negatively than it was when Shogun was written. Today, that quote would make more people view Toranaga as an ignorant bad-guy than it would have when the book was written, wheh he's supposed to be a positive figure.

[@PresidentSunday]

​That's not an update, that's robbing the dialogue of its meaning and treating the audience like it's stupid. ​@@ProzacStylings

[@generallytso1077]

@@ProzacStylings I actually haven’t watched the series. I was just interested in the short because I’ve read the book several times. I don’t know if the series portrays Toranaga as a good guy, but in the book he was most definitely not. He was interested in becoming Shogun whatever it took. on occasion, he willingly sent loyal servants to their deaths just to have an opportunity to have a political advantage against his enemies. He expected people to die for him whenever he demanded. He cared absolutely nothing about peasants except that they could produce wealth. That being said, he was probably the best of them because he didn’t simply murder people with glee like a lot of samurai did .

[@Charlie_Ses]

Yes they completely butchered that line, lost all its meaning. The essence of the original line was that to fight a war as an insurgent is immoral; Blackthorne retorts unless one wins, which Toranaga smirks at as he recognises the truth in that. But if they can butcher such an important line in the book it makes me wonder about the rest!

[@RidoDrago]

​@@ProzacStylings so we're just going to change someone's idea? Someones book? Someones religion? What he he said and what he meant? Is that also why youve changed the holy Bible a dozen times? Screw the audience, you cant temper with history...

[@Timbo6669]

Wow…that smile from Toranaga at the end is such beautiful acting.

[@jeffvincent6690]

The guy playing toranaga was the second in command in "The last samurai". The original Shogun is probably the best TV mini-series ever made..

[@sebastianwisniewski2634]

Hiroyuki Sanada

[@flybeep1661]

If that's all you know him from, guess you're not really a movie buff.

[@richardscanlan3419]

Well,the original did have Toshiro Mifune in it.That's Japanese acting royalty right there.

[@LoveMaskedBandits]

He's also in the movie 47 Ronin with Keanu Reeves, plays a part in John Wick's lastest movie. And an older show called Helix. I've always loved Hiro. Discovered the reason recently. He's one year younger than me. Born two days before my birthday. Nugget of Knowledge: Libra is the ONLY non living symbol of the Zodiac.

[@galiojusticejustice3191]

​@@flybeep1661 Oh no, some random prick on the internet said he doesn't know movies, what ever will he do?

[@Memog78]

Who knew that translation and geography could be so interesting?

[@rcslyman8929]

Translation, not so much. Intentional mistranslation, now that's a character unto itself.

[@Scarletraven87]

What are you talking about? They have always been interesting

[@jimhsfbay]

@@rcslyman8929I watched a whole K-drama about a woman who writes English subtitles for Korean films. It was fascinating!

[@theloverlyladylo9158]

@@jimhsfbaywhich drama was that?

[@OriginalPuro]

The creators knew. What a silly question.

[@andrewjeffries8721]

The book "Shogun" and the series of stories that followed it, Tai Pan, Noble House, King Rat etc. are some of the most powerful stories ever written down. James Clavell is a master!

[@jenniturtleburger3708]

Shogun is a stand alone novel. King Rat also not part of the Nobel House series as It’s based off of Clavell's experience as a POW in Changi prison, although Peter Marlow (based on Clavell himself) does show up in Nobel House as he’s researching to write a novel about Japan just as Clavell himself did.

[@Mark-xh8md]

"To enlist you against his enemies".....I don't know man...there's a subtle but ESSENTIAL difference between what he actually said, which was cooperation against a common foe, and the word "enlist" which would indicate subservience. He seemed to get the point, though.

[@TheMisterGuy]

There is! But just from this scene, I think the translator has her own agenda and did that on purpose. She also stopped translating to call him out for "lying" about the foreign claims on non-Christian lands, and then didn't relay the strength of the oath the man took. I wonder if she is a Christian convert (EDIT: I'm stupid, didn't notice she's wearing a cross) or has some other reason to be friendly to the Portuguese, because these actions all tilt the conversation to favor the Portuguese without her ever actually having to lie or disobey her lord.

[@Jedislayer19]

@@TheMisterGuy the much simpler explanation is that she believed his words to be misleading. She communicated the meaning she perceived behind his words, all in service to her Master. I think she was also lowkey offended by his presumption that he was equal to them. He said "us" and she basically said "there is no 'us'. This dude is trying to use us to win his battles."

[@TheMisterGuy]

@@Jedislayer19 "the much simpler explanation is that she believed his words to be misleading." That's not a simpler explanation in storytelling. Good writers don't throw things like that in there if they don't mean anything. "She communicated the meaning she perceived behind his words, all in service to her Master." But interpreting the foreigner's words and then passing that along to her master - instead of what he actually said - takes away some of the master's ability to perceive the situation. Similarly, she accuses him of lying rather than passing the lie directly to her master for the master to decide. Just looking at this one scene (again I haven't seen the show), she is manipulating the situation and is more of a power player than merely some translator. "I think she was also lowkey offended by his presumption that he was equal to them." That may also be true. But there are at least three things she does in the scene that are questionable, because they all lean the same way: 1. Changes "we have a common enemy" to "he wants to enlist you". That will obviously cause a way less friendly reaction. 2. Refuses to translate something she calls a lie, which would reflect badly on the Portuguese. 3. When he takes an oath to his god that this is true, she does not relay that oath. This makes his claim feel less strong. All three in one scene benefit the Portuguese. I'm excited to watch the show, but just from this one scene, that's way too many hints for it to be just something like "this member of the lord's staff is offended by the foreigner." A good writer would be hinting at something bigger. EDIT: I missed a major detail the first time I watched this scene. SHE IS WEARING A CROSS. I was going off just her words before, but somehow missed that she's literally showing her allegiance on her person.

[@CleverGirlAAH]

@@TheMisterGuy I saw in a similar comment thread, a previous scene was a priest telling her to I believe lie, or be careful how she translates Blackthorne to Toranaga. So she is skewing his words on purpose. It's wonderfully Japanese too. Hahaha She's not lying but not entirely forthright with her translations. ((I havent seen the show yet either but am a fan of the original miniseries, this clip has me hooked. I was waiting to hear if there was any 'modern audience shoe horns before I watched it myself haha It sounds dutifully accurate to the book though))

[@TheMisterGuy]

@@CleverGirlAAH YES! That's exactly what it looks like she's doing! She keeps slightly mistranslating or changing context on things in a way that make Blackthorne look bad to Toranaga, to the benefot of the Portguese/Christians, but never actually technically full-on lying. (This would have been more obvious if I hadn't missed her cross necklace.)

[@calebmantle2910]

"If I invade Laconia, I shall turn you out." "If."

[@jZamora87]

breh, turning someone out is a crazy phrase.

[@Leviathan4000]

Of course, then he invaded Laconia, and turned them out.

[@twobitsnick]

​​@@HowlingWolf518 i suggest you check your sources again. He invaded and was victorious. Its true that he didn't go directly into Sparta but he took land from them, and the only reason he stopped is that he might have felt he had bigger fish to fry.

[@jerrygu5316]

Actually he said way more, but Philip made him eat the rest of it from history. Impressive.

[@calebmantle2910]

@@twobitsnick And your girlfriend goes to another school, right? "He had better things to do than take Sparta" yeah ok.

[@kyliam80]

Christ. Hiroyuki Sanada is such an amazing actor. Such minor facial expressions, and he conveys so much emotion through them.

[@chrisbanks6659]

The whole show is built on facial expressions. Not one character lacks them. Least of all Fuji-sama. It's the best piece of 10 collectable art works I have seen for decades.

[@wardgushee3050]

Also in the book Blackthorn is getting some rudimentary Japanese, which he learned from the Franciscan monk in the jail.

[@LordBuntaro]

The franciscan monk who is in prison is not mentioned in this series (but is in the book, and in the 1980 version) is friar Domingo, a spaniard imprisoned by the portuguese, who teaches japanese to Blackthorne, and tells him about things the portuguese are doing, such as arms trafficking and the black ship

[@zipzapman]

Isn’t he the priest from the prison in episode 2?

[@stynkus]

@@zipzapman Yup.

[@LordBuntaro]

@@zipzapman Exact. Father Domingo is a character who appears in the novel and in the 1980 version. Although he does not appear a lot, his presence is important. He meets Blacktorne in prison, establishes a friendship with him, and in addition to teaching him japanese and some protocols in japanese, he warns him about the intentions of the portuguese. This cannot be understood without friar Domingo, because everything that Blacktorne knows about the portuguese, the black ship, etc, he knows thanks to friar Domingo. In fact, Blacktorne tells all this to Mariko, and tells her that friar Domingo told him. In this version of " Shogun " have completely discarded this character, I don't know, I guess to give more importance to other characters

[@menechne]

Well at this point in the serie he starts to get the basics

[@Voodoomaria]

I saw the original mini series many years ago, and was suitably impressed. I have NO hesitation in saying, from what little i just saw here, this looks WORLDS better. I have to see the whole thing now.

[@geoffreyhilario9501]

The lighting alone is leagues better

[@ManoleitorArg]

So far best 2024 show...

[@akui88]

aside from fallout, this is the best of 2024 so far.

[@stevenphillips3466]

I like the far more realistic and submissive Woman of the Original series .... nt teh Boston College Asian type here...she's hot but not nearly authentic Japanese woman of that time like in the Original .

[@Voodoomaria]

@@stevenphillips3466 We can't expect that some modern social contamination will not slip in. I'm a movie collector and amateur film historian, and there's something I always say about the movies. They are a carnival fun-house mirror reflection of the times in which they are made, and a lot can be learned about the mindset in every day society of any given year by examining the distortions, exaggerations, and stereotyping that creep into the popular entertainment.

[@occamraiser]

That 'unless I win' line is nonsensical in the context of 'you are massively outnumbered' The original version of shogun - the 1980 version with Richard Chamberlain has him replying 'unless you win' in response to 'There is no excuse for rebellion', which makes MUCH more sense and has much more impact.

[@disrupt94]

Not really. Blackthorne is essentially saying that that even an seemingly impossible battle can be won. Original sounds better though.

[@FumetsuGolf]

This show is such a masterpiece.

[@21erkhan21]

Nuh uh

[@aliasalias8433]

I recommend the Book

[@luceafarul579]

Until episode 6 :(

[@scw77]

Your whore mom is a disasterpiece

[@LucaBrasi-gq5rf]

It’s terrible. They cut some of the best parts. Read the book or watch the 1978 version afterwards and you’ll see. This was nothing but a neutered version full of “stunning” special effects.

[@nicolaslabra2225]

heard a lot about the series, but this clip sold me, im watching the heck out of this one.

[@bme4285]

Imagine if she wasn’t translating what each person was saying? Such power she has.

[@clmberserker245]

Did he just pull an "Nah, I'd win"

[@onlyeasydaywasyesterday]

No he just pulled One of the first ever "hold by beer"

[@UnclePengy]

He used the same line in the original miniseries (although in a different place), and Toronaga was similarly bemused.

[@dempseyhighroller1886]

Throughout England and Japan he alone is the honored one

[@0doublezero0]

How did this meme get so insanely popular and its not even animated yet? Under 25 crowd is pretty large here. lol

[@clmberserker245]

@@0doublezero0 im not even under 25. just young at heart i guess

[@Enfors]

I believe this corresponds to the scene in the Richard Chamberlain version where Anjin-san is told that "rebellion is unforgivable", and he responds "Unless you win" and is met with a laughter of agreement. kzbin.info/www/bejne/mn_CpHSfbcmBi6c

[@raman5329]

Yes, and that scene (same as in the book) makes much more sense and is more powerful. The new series is nice but that scene is awful....what were they thinking altering it like this?

[@JohnDoe-yq9rt]

Anjin-sama not san

[@TheMisterGuy]

@@JohnDoe-yq9rt "Anjin-sama not san" The non-Japanese dude is a lord?

[@JohnDoe-yq9rt]

@@TheMisterGuy watch the show

[@TheMisterGuy]

@@JohnDoe-yq9rt Yeah it looks awesome, can't wait!

[@kael100]

Missing the part when Toronaga explains to Blackthorne that they already known it (Williams Adams, arrived to Japan in 1600). Japan sent prior his arrival two embassies to Europe; one to Portugal (1580 - Tensho) and another one to Spain around 1613 (Keicho). If you are curious, in Coria del Rio (Seville) there is a japanese festivity called "Toro Nagashi" (every 15th of August). Even today you can find many Spaniards surnamed "Japón" (Japan) due to these relationships, especially in the province of Seville.

[@Trump20-24years]

Spainards hate asians...

[@RawCaribb]

The treaty is called" Treaty of Tordesillas," 1494 Correction - Treaty of Zaragoza April 22 1529

[@guynoir5968]

If I was as ill-informed as you I would have just deleted my comment

[@mikiroony]

As for it being secret, I have my doubts. Magellan's trip was known to all of Europe.

[@GreenRiceProd1995]

@@mikiroonyThe trip as a general concept was known but the European maritime powers kept all sorts of specific information like island and route locations within their own country. You yourself know that Magellan passed through those straits, but could you sail yourself to those straits without a marked map or GPS or coordinates? And do so in a timely manner so you don’t run out of food and water because you don’t know where you can even stop to resupply?

[@sartte]

18 June 1452: Pope Nicholas V issues Dum Diversas, a bull authorising the Portuguese to reduce any non-Christians to the status of slaves.

[@globalist1990]

@@GreenRiceProd1995that's absolute rubbish. The expeditions could be from a specific kingdom, but sailors and navigators could be from anywhere, really. Spanish had native Americans even. And Portugal, Africans. It was very common to have Venetians and other Italians. Even this story is about an English in a Dutch expedition. Probably there was more a divide between Protestants and Catholics, because there was real conflict in Europe between the two. Even Columbus first proposed his expedition to Portugal, he was refused and then went to Spain (Castille, more accurately). And Magellan was Portuguese in a Spanish expedition.

[@eggos5074]

Wish the actor playing toranaaga got more roles he does the "f around find out" to damn well.

[@streetgato9697]

He's been acting since the '60s, started as a child actor then later as action star in Japan and Hong Kong, and already starred in numerous Hollywood movies like John Wick, Last Samurai, Avengers, Wolverine and Lost. He'll surely get more roles after Shogun.

[@FrizFroz]

Mate he’s one of the most famous present day Japanese actors internationally.

[@tonyrandall3146]

@@streetgato9697 TWILIGHT SAMURAI

[@ALBINO1D]

His name is Hiroyuki Sanada. He's basically working full-time for an actor. How much do you want him to work? jeez

[@mfhex1398]

@@streetgato9697 don't forget he plays the villain in Rush Hour 3 :)

[@lostlatinlover]

My God I Loved This Series! We need more content like this; thoughtful, great acting, beautiful costumes, a real and meaningful plotline.

[@samuelmolina9496]

I love that he’s played two rolls in the same series in the original and then the remake great actor. Great story.

[@VasKyah]

Who did play in the original? I haven't seen it yet.

[@SimBir08]

Rice roll and an Egg roll?

[@Mundanesoup4]

Flat Earthers watching this like 👁👄👁

[@carloko08]

But how, the earth is a sphere just because an english pirate says so? It's very easy to convince you

[@carloko08]

@Habs798 hahaha, how absurd is all that, I only asked THE EARTH IS A SPHERE JUST BECAUSE AN ENGLISH PIRATE SAYS SO?

[@carloko08]

@Habs798 actually the real laugh is to think that the english are something more than pirates.

[@radicalpaddyo]

Harr harr matey, that we be

[@colehampton4579]

So you think they stopped lying? Get a jab? Put on a mask? You're not that stupid

[@sgtlamancha805]

I’ve now watched through twice and it’s without a doubt one of the best series I’ve ever seen. Impeccable acting, blocking, choreography and that stillness in scenes that require it. They absolutely nailed this.

[@nathanlawson313]

@@sgtlamancha805 yep. I read book first, years ago. Then watched this. I've heard the 70s TV series was better than this one. I find it hard to believe but it's next on my to-do list

[@cyruszoghi]

Shows can go on for several seasons and never achieve "That Moment". The reaction to "Did he really say Belong?" WAS THAT MOMENT!!!

[@tcjusttc5418]

The amount of subtext is just EPIC

[@robertmortimer8288]

Poor americans. When I grew up with american tv shows there was always subtext.

[@sqaure4175]

@@robertmortimer8288How enlightened of you. What a pig headed fool you are.

[@BayhouseLoans]

@@robertmortimer8288 I think you mean subtitles? Subtext is a distinct and underlying theme in a conversation.

[@robertmortimer8288]

@@BayhouseLoans English is not my motherertongue, but sure, it can also mean between the lines. According to my countrys dictionary subtext means primarily translated texts under, that's why I interpreted it as such.

[@BayhouseLoans]

@@robertmortimer8288 look I’d feel embarrassed just like you do if I said “poor Americans” only to find out I was completely wrong 🤣. Just take the L and move on.

[@kebabsaurusrex1601]

Can we all take a moment to appreciate how amazing this looks, feels and sounds. The acting is top notch and Hiroyuki Sanada is fantastic.

[@gattingbowledwarne]

The original mini series… not the movie version… was excellent. The book is a masterpiece. Got to watch this.

[@Adrian-L3x4]

I remember the old one. Amazing. This reminded me about it. Time to rewatch 👌🏻

[@failtolawl]

the old one was terribly made lmao

[@littlemouse7066]

this is better.

[@peternicholas2393]

If I remember correctly, the term "miniseries" was *coined* by the original Richard Chamberlain _Shōgun._

[@foothilldave]

This series remake is incredible. The episode "Crimson Sky" is one of the most epic episodes of anything on TV - up with highest rated Game Of Thrones episodes.

[@hazardeur]

so GoT is your measurement for greatness?

[@ProzacStylings]

@@hazardeur As it is for most people, edgyboy.

[@foothilldave]

@@hazardeur No - for highest rated TV (on IMDB)

[@hazardeur]

@@foothilldavefirst of all, GoT is on number 13 of that list. secondly, if you go by this philosophy, marvel movies are the best movies and i dont even want to make analogies to current music but you hopefully get the picture

[@kryss.4725]

This was the most pivotal scene between Toranaga and Blackthorne, in my opinion. It was in this instance that Toranaga realised that his enemies, and that of the realm, were much, much larger than just the other members of the Regency. As someone who was ten to twenty steps ahead of everyone else, I believe it was in this moment that he decided that Blackthorne would never leave Japan, as he would have to learn everything he could about the Portuguese and other potential European enemies from him; this, and he'd need a fleet of powerful ships to rival any foreign naval power that dared claim Japan. In tandem with which, when Blackthorn revealed that the Portuguese were his enemies, he immediately placed him as a piece on his virtual chessboard, knowing that he could one day use him as leverage with the Catholic Regents. Blackthorne in all his arrogance upon first arriving and meeting the Japanese who he thought were savages could not have divined any of this; even until the end, he didn't fully perceive Toranaga's real intentions with him. I think in the end when Yabushige was imploring Toranaga to tell him why he was so intent on keeping the Anjin, and Toranaga said something to the effect of because he made him laugh, it was almost like he was amused at how narrow Yabushige's range of vision was and decided to tell him something that would make him chuckle just before he died - it's almost like at that point, if Yabushige couldn't see the bigger picture, why even bother tell him. Just my read.

[@ryanrobinson6654]

I hope they do Tai Pan next. And then Rat King. Clavell wrote some of the best books.

[@markmayfield2228]

The whole Asian saga was really good.

[@rbu2136]

The audiobooks are very good.

[@Onii-chan899]

Tai Pan is my favorite

[@Ginric99]

And like all the best stories it is all based in fact.

[@markallison8108]

King Rat

[@MrLookatmyhat]

I love seeing the book brought to life. This is almost beat for beat exactly what happens in the book. Phenomenal!

[@sustainablerenewableintegr8311]

In 1511, the Portuguese invaded Malacca and laid waste to the city. Back then, it was one of the most important maritime trading hubs in the Asia-Pacific region, connecting the Far East to the Middle East, Africa, and beyond. The news of the destruction spread like wildfire across the Far East from the returning merchants. Every kingdom was on high alert and was very suspicious of European travelers. To the ruling elites back then, this was an existential crisis, especially when they found out the Portuguese armed the previous rebellion

[@Judge_Magister]

Dutch traders were welcomed almost everywhere. They exclusively traded with Japan for some 250 years or so during the period of isolation.

[@DylanJo123]

​@@Judge_Magister were the Dutch catholic or protestant?

[@Judge_Magister]

@@DylanJo123 both. The Netherlands was founded as a republic with “freedom of religion”, though protestantism was dominant and there were laws against other religions. Later Napoleon would create a puppet kingdom out of the Netherlands which continues till this day. As for Japan, Dutch traders at Dejima Nagasaki had to prove to the Japanese again each year that they were not there to spread Christianity by stamping on clay portraits of the virgin Mary. Another interesting topic of the contact during those days is the concept of Rangaku or “Dutchknowledge”.

[@DylanJo123]

@@Judge_Magister interesting. You seem informed about that stuff, do you have any reading recommendations on the subject?

[@Judge_Magister]

@@DylanJo123 not any books in English that i can think of. You could google history of Dutch Japanese relations but most handwritten accounts are in either Dutch or Japanese. There is the SieboldHuis museum in the Netherlands (lso I in Japan) which is also interesting.

[@miguellogistics984]

Beautiful Color. Beautiful set. Excellent Costumes for Frame. Clavell's work is amazing to be met with the effort exemplified in this scene.

[@theknights5086]

This is the scene that hooked me for real, so tense and well written. Masterful show beginning to end

[@englishkernigit8294]

I love the admiring grin at the end

[@jameskane8428]

I'm gonna assume the next scene is when he tells them the secret to winning against Portugal is to capture Andrew Garfield and bully him into submission.

[@Buffalopian]

That comes much later

[@joshuarosen1862]

I really like seeing how Toranaga realizes Japan is believed to be not independent for Portugal outside their island conquering nations without knowing it can really make you angry

[@phuturephunk]

Sanada played that ever so slight smirk perfectly after "Unless I win." Just perfect.

[@InternationalScoutIIHarvester]

Haven't watched this yet but I still remember the original on tv as a kid . The very stoic and harsh depiction of Japanese culture was startling. Early 80s, when Japan was the bad guy, their automobile and other various industries were crushing the competition. Now that China is the bad guy I'm glad Japan is on our side

[@garcalej]

“To vanquish our common enemies..” “To enlist you against HIS enemies.” Love the not so subtle change there…definitely going to watch this….

[@marocat4749]

I mean thats not wrong, itds his entention to use them, right?

[@garcalej]

@@marocat4749 Yup…that’s why they’re called “interpreters”, not translators.

[@xavidub]

It's a long time since a series had such high quality acting as this. Everyone in it was absolutely perfect.

[@marcdavis4509]

I watched the original Shogun in the 80’s and really am enjoying this

[@jenrods3512]

Simply love the series!! The fight scenes when samurai clean their swords after killing another warrior is next level.

[@eb9782]

This scene is SO SO good. I wish that every director and writer tasked with doing exposition would watch this before doing anything

[@Bropann]

In the book it is revealed that when Blackthorne said, "Unless you win" he was actually replying to a statement that Toronaga made about how it was dishonorable or whatever to make war against whoever was your lord (or daimyo). And it is revealed later that it was at that point that he truely solidified his relationship with blackthorne, that he became his friend. Because he agreed with him totally of course.

[@amandaruth9566]

Damn, Hiroyuki Sanada is one of the most charismatic performers I've ever watched. An absolute pleasure.

[@NgocTran-nf5hr]

What’s great about his acting is that you can’t see a hint of fear on his face. His eyes are unflinching, never reveal his emotions! But you know there’s an urgency underneath the calm exterior. A very traditional esteemed characteristic of a leader 👍❤️👍❤️👍❤️

[@kekohokko7213]

The lines from 4:10 are in a different context in the book. Toranaga says on being told of the Netherlands rebelling against Spain: »There are no 'mitigating circumstances' when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord.« which Blackthorne answers with »Unless you win.« I prefer the original setup for the sentiment, but this show looks very well made and acted.

[@Chiberia]

I'm amazed they even made this into the movie. I've read the book twice and the book is _long_ (1,500 pages or so). The fact that they were able to get what probably took 3 hours of reading into this scene without breaking the feeling the book gave is pretty good screen writing.

[@BlueSwampyCraft]

I think they kept that in the 1970’s tv series if I remember correctly

[@chieftan69]

This is nothing but dialogue, but. I was on the edge of my seat watching this. The surprise, disbelief and sadness of Mariko and Torunaga are beautiful acted.

[@Wraithfighter]

One thing I love from the show is the number of times its clear that people fully understand what sort of thing is being said, even if they don't understand the language. The bit at 2:50 is a great example: There's a brief exchange in Japanese, and Blackthorne picks up that Toranaga is *pissed* at this info, and probably even that others are in disbelief of the notion. It really helps sell that the characters are smart, able to read the tones and able to work forward from there.

[@jeroencrabbe]

With "we" he actually means the Dutch.

[@Bronzescorpion]

That is quite odd since he is an Englishman. Even more so since he says "unless I win", not "we"

[@globalist1990]

@@Bronzescorpion he was on a Dutch ship. There was no official English presence in Japan until the 19th century, I think. Portugal, Spain, France and whatever the Dutch called their land then. But there were many more "nationalities" in any of the ships sailing under those flags. European, and from any land known in between Europe and Japan. Spanish even had native Americans working as sailors. Globalism started over 500 years ago.

[@Bronzescorpion]

@@globalist1990 No, he was on his ship, hired by the Dutch, but that doesn't matter at all, since the "unless I win" quote is about the protestant and catholic war, in which he mentions Elizabethan England and again, he says "I", not "we". So no, he didn't mean the Dutch. He meant himself and to an extent his mission, which was protestant and English. The Dutch wanted to trade, he wanted war.

[@globalist1990]

@@Bronzescorpion William Adams, better known in Japan as Miura Anjin, was an English navigator who, in 1600, became the first Englishman to reach Japan. He did so on a trading ship called Liefde under the leadership of Jacob Quaeckernaeck; it was the only vessel reaching Japan from a five-ship expedition launched by a company of Rotterdam merchants (a predecessor of the Dutch East India Company). Among the few survivors of the expedition who reached Japan, for more than a decade, the authorities did not allow Adams and his second mate Jan Joosten to leave the country. Adams and Joosten settled in Japan, and the two men became Western samurai.

[@Bronzescorpion]

@@globalist1990 wtf dude? Are you pulling a leg? William Adams is the real life person that is the inspiration of John Blackthorne, but those two characters are separate. You can't seriously argue this way. The story in Shogun differs from the actual events, even though much is similar. What a completely pointless argument you present. What I have said is literally in the story, so it is the canon despite what happened to the real life inspiration.

[@khylerbane4523]

I imagine that later on, when they were alone, Toranaga and the others all had a existential crisis when alone when they tried to come to terms with the fact they and everything they ever dedicated their lives too was a footnote in history. How else do you react to learning your entire existence was completely insignificant on the world stage.

[@Rendarth1]

No moreso than most other world leaders at the time, though. Even the most powerful colonial "empires" at the time didn't control much away from a few coastal population centers.

[@Makise3]

I love this show so very much. How I wish this could get another season or a movie or something.

[@analoguegeek]

give it a few years and the English and Portuguese shake hands on an alliance that still exists.

[@spheromancer_]

A small correction, that alliance was formed 200 years before when this show is set. He might be british, but he represented the Dutch and England never took part on Japan related things.

[@drivestowork]

I really really hope they put this out on disc! I'd very much like to watch all of it rather than just tidbits on KZbin. Before you ask/suggest, No I don't have a streaming service either.

[@pippofranco879]

then pirate it?

[@Cornerboy73]

This series was exceptionally well done. The talent in front and behind the camera outdid themselves.

[@definitelynotthequestion5359]

When 16th century english pirate has more knowledge about geography than modern day flat-earthers.

[@dontworry4945]

I mean he DID sail to Japan. most flat ear....most people nowadaya couldn't point out a cardinal direction in this modern era some need the gps to get to the grocery store.

[@Talyrion]

I mean, I'd expect ANY sailor from almost any point of history to have more knowledge about geography than flat-earthers.

[@garymills562]

​@AustrianPainters_TopGuyl think flat earth types just like to stir the shxxt.

[@TheEvilCheesecake]

It is absolutely hilarious for an englishman to describe the actions of the portuguese like this, when his nation was doing the exact same on an even larger scale.

[@Talyrion]

@@TheEvilCheesecake I mean, at that date (1600), they hadn't really started. Yet.

[@berkowk]

This was a clip that hooked me.

[@Aprlmoore]

This was such a great show! I sure hope they continue it.

[@stevenator0281]

England and Portugal have never gone to war against each other.

[@unusual9026]

Aside from an interim period where the Portuguese and Spanish monarchy married. The Spanish Armada was during this period, which included Portuguese ships. Once their monarchies separated again, England and Portugal both agreed that didn’t count, and continued the alliance to this day.

[@tomli3898]

There is one exception to England and Portugal having never fought each other and it is right in the period Shogun is set. Spain and England are at war due to a number of reasons, Portugal is under the control of Spain with the legitimate Portuguese government in exile in England. If you want more context look up the Anglo-Spanish war (1585-1604). Additionally, Shogun is set in the year 1600, so at this current moment England is at war with Portugal as a country, the technicality is Portugal is currently controlled by a puppet Catholic government.

[@drvater1416]

@@tomli3898 The legitimate government was in power, mainly because the legitimate king of portugal was Philip II, already king of Spain. Most portuguese were loyal to him and accepted his rule. The other portuguese pretender held power shortly in the mainland and later in the azores. Another portuguese pretender marched alongside drake during the english armada and did nothing of note as the local population and nobility stood besides Philip. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_succession_crisis_of_1580#António_of_Portugal_and_Philip_of_Spain en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Armada#Portugal

[@iamrapidrocket]

@@tomli3898sure, but they were always catholic…

[@tomli3898]

@@iamrapidrocket Yea I could have made that more clear, the main difference being a government keen to continue the alliance between England and Portugal and the puppet pro Spanish one.

[@sdswood3457]

Sanada is just incredible in everything

[@noneedtoknow07]

goddamn the clips of this show are making want to renew my Hulu subscription.

[@shiggymartin9722]

Easily one of the best shows ever produced.

Most things like this are great because of everything that went before them, and what the creators learned from those. Remember that.

[@EP-cg4fs]

I forgot how good this is

[@J.Y.Creative]

And this is why the series deserves those Emmys

[@rafalpalma]

I guess that's how story of "Silence" movie come to happen

[@gonun13]

The treaty to "split the world" was real but the rest is mostly fiction. Portugal appearing in Japan did had a great impact in the History of Japan by introducing firearms and global economic trade, both that sped up the unification of Japan. Portuguese where the first to translate Japanese to a western language. To this day the relations between Portugal and Japan are still in great standing. But of course some english guy would want to paint another picture to get a piece of the action...

[@rkc906]

The smile at the end....slight inkling of respect. To fight against the odds. Absurd but possible. Belief against logic. Amazing

[@smnoy23]

love the reaction to hearing about the Portuguese base.

[@razgrizadler]

"Unless I win" is not nozomi wa aru "nozomi wa aru" should mean "there is a way" to be precise.

[@arcon97]

3 excellent actors given great dialogue and nailing it here. I must watch.

[@MrOlgrumpy]

Beautiful translator

[@Unleashed75]

I frigging love this show. It's so good!

[@TheGreatWerebear-ge7uh]

I really wish they'd leaned into this dynamic--the way the Europeans were involved in Japan--a little more in this version of Shogun. It would have taken maybe an extra half hour of content over the course of the series to give us more time with Father Alvito, maybe Rodriguez too, and foreshadow the (incredibly sinister) long-term trajectory shift that occurred in Japan as a direct result of the main character's actions. It's been a while since I watched the 1980 version, but I do remember more time was spent on this topic and it's one of the few ways in which I think that the 1980 version had an edge.

[@YoniBaruch-y3m]

If historical, this conversation would go a long way toward explaining the pre-Meiji Japanese desperation to suppress Christianity.

[@pixsilvb9638]

john Blackthorne: "Unless I win" Lord Toranaga: "Thats 'ma Boy"

[@moomoodeadcow]

I love Sanada san's work. The Ring was legendary. I just re-watched it again recently and it still gave me chills after so many years. You can see it's shadows in so many films that followed.

[@minglin2814]

Ain't no way he said "nah I'd win"