Shōgun is a Masterpiece on Translation

[@HallyPorter]

As the person responsible for creating the dub of Backstroke of the West, itself a legitimate attempt at a translation of Revenge of the Sith, I'd just like to say that it was never done to poke fun at another culture, but rather having some fun illuminating the differences between languages, and the sort of poetic expressions no one would have thought of. One of many examples of this is "a day after the fair" meaning "too late." This is an expression a westerner would not think of, yet could works as an metaphorical saying- removed from its context however, such as in a situation where one needs to jump to avoid a falling elevator, it's both humorous because it takes more time to say, but also an unfamiliar phrase, which can be seen as an inviting mystery. This subject matter, and your video, was very interesting. Edit: I wrote the above after watching just the first bit where you mention Backstroke, but getting more into your video I see that you mention the same things as above!

[@dankym]

Honestly, "Backstroke" opened up the way I thought about English phrases. Putting words together in ways we couldn't think of; almost creating new idioms. It's both a hilarious and a genuinely interesting way of seeing translation, Star Wars, and English overall. Although I'm sad to see that it's no longer on KZbin, at least the video I saved.

[@HallyPorter]

​@@dankym Wow, I appreciate that Backstroke had that affect on you. Yes I'm sad the full movie is gone, too, interesting how Disney can dig up Peter Cushing but quietly stabs Backstroke in the alley. (It wasn't my channel anyway, a few clips survive from 2010 on the original dubgathers channel. They are dubbed but not subbed.) You video here brought to mind a lot of what I set out to do, that's why it's read entirely seriously, not breaking the fourth wall and doing it as the closest thing an English speaker could get to hearing English as a foreign language, was important beyond the aims of just lols. Likewise I was fascinated with what you were saying about the aims of the Shogun creators in how they approached the methods of dubbing and subbing, making that format a storyteller unto itself.

[@rfmerrill]

Once I actually started learning a little bit of Chinese, I immediately flashed back to "do not want" and realized, oh right... Chinese doesn't really have a way to translate "no" universally does it? The phrase you would use in that situation literally means "do not want".

[@hundredfireify]

@@HallyPorter Is there any way I can find the Backstroke of the West video online?

[@xHomu]

This is why professionals prefer to call their job localizing rather than translation.

[@johnmicheal5722]

You're wrong! Translation and localization have a lot in common but are truly just two different approaches to communicating information from one language to the either: domestication & foreignization (Look those up). Context and often times the target audience determine which one is more suitable. Therefore, there are professionals for both, and both are of the same importance. Not one trumping over the other. Another fact is that in multicultural contexts, translation is preferred to localization because it transmits just the information, not all the cultural nuances that have to go along.

[@黒板消しブリーダー]

I am Japanese, but while watching this series, there were times when I couldn’t fully catch the old Japanese language, so I always had Japanese subtitles displayed. Additionally, since I can speak English, I would sometimes rewind the scenes with beautiful lines to check how they were translated into English and read the English subtitles.

[@errolglenn4548]

It would be awesome if you shared the beautiful Japanese lines in your own best way into English

[@黒板消しブリーダー]

@@errolglenn4548 I think the translator did best job for English subtitles. All the lines are translated its best way.

[@dankym]

Hey, thanks for just clicking on the vid. Spent months researching and working on it, so I would definitely appreciate if this video got a lot of love. Just in time for the Emmy wins too.

[@MunaNuxay]

You welcome bro. Loved watching

[@mcrumph]

Thus, Anjin embraces cosmopolitanism. I especially liked that the editor(s) didn't rush the scenes. It gives the emotions created by the actors time to sink into the viewers' understanding. This is an excellent program on every level.

[@mattsoca1]

There is a reason that Japanese is considered one of the four most difficult languages to learn according to the US Department of State. When one adds in the complexity of 3 writing systems, the level of difficulty only increases. But the final complication is added by cultural ramifications such as status, hierarchy, etc. It's also important to realize that there are often times where an exact translation is not possible. I studied Japanese for my compulsory foreign language requirement in secondary school and university. I am currently living in Japan for 3 and 1/2 years. There are occasions where I feel that I am still learning Japanese. Watching Shogun and understanding what was said in Japanese was pleasant, and definitely seemed natural, adding immensely to an authentic experience. The only distraction was viewing some of the translations in English, and then immediately thinking that it wasn't quite accurate.

[@phik]

My mom is Japanese and I speak it, but I live in Germany, so I got German subtitles and I felt the same way about the German subtitles. I had trouble with some of the very old formal Japanese though.

[@mattsoca1]

@@phik Curiously interesting. Most of my childhood was spent in Switzerland so Swiss German was actually my first language, followed by English and French. When we moved back to the States (especially because my english was lacking), there was a compulsory language requirement and I tried to enroll in German, then French, thinking I could skate through. But the school officials were too wise, they compelled me to take a "new" language (even after I told them that Swiss German was considered Plattdeutsch, which also got me no where). So I enrolled in Japanese since it was offered at the private school that I attended. Then for university, I attended one of the few schools that also had a 1-year compulsory language requirement. The same thing happened with respect to German and French, but because I wasn't fluent in Japanese like German or French, I was allowed to take Japanese, skipping the first quarter requirement. (I even tried to convince them and the previous secondary school staff to allow me to enroll in English classes since it was not as fluent as my German, but they had none of that.). But now that I'm in Japan, I am so very grateful that I enrolled in Japanese classes. This has enabled me to experience Japan that very few noncitizens are ever afforded. When I leave Japan in a little more than a year and a half, I will definitely miss the country, and already am not looking forward to the day of departure.

[@dainkoa]

Thoughtful analysis, masterpiece video honestly

[@dankym]

@@dainkoa Thank you for the high praise, but im just relaying what Shōgun has already said.

[@ellenbaker8553]

As difficult as it would be, it would have been so damn sick if they could have had these people speaking historical Portuguese. Make the viewer really feel what it's like to be lost in a foreign land, as enchanted by the language as confused.

[@cyberiansailor9741]

I watched the entire thing in Portuguese since that's what they are speaking most of the time

[@trevorfuller1078]

@@cyberiansailor9741: Regarding the Portuguese (The language, people & culture) of that period, one should not forget that the Portuguese had already been invaded & were then being subjugated by the neighbouring Kingdom & Empire of Spain, some 20 years or so earlier, since 1580. During the series, Shogun, this aura & background of passive hostility & conflict (These putative events were supposedly taking place while the ‘Anglo-Spanish War, 1585-1604,’ was then ongoing!) that seems to prevail, casting a menacing shadow over the hitherto, normally peaceful & mutually-supportive relations between England & Portugal. However, due to then prevailing threat Spanish dominance & of reprisals being wreaked upon their people, if not their will & commands were then completely complied with, from their overbearing neighbouring masters in the Kingdom next-door on the Iberian Peninsula. Thus, the contemporaneous Portuguese had actually no free choice during this era, & were then forced to follow the Spanish lead politically & militarily, especially, during this specific period (ca 1597 to 1603) that the story here is set, & also this foreshadowing situation was then aptly reflected in this latest version of the ‘Shogun,’ mini-series was also typified by the minacious actions & attitudes demonstrated by the Jesuit Priest towards Blackthorne, of this particular era of occupation in 16th & 17th centuries, between 1580 until 1640, when thereafter, the Portuguese finally broke free of the Spanish yoke that had additionally reintroduced & intensified the extreme activities of the “inquisition” into daily life in Portugal & its overseas colonies, & had thus restored their traditional monarchy & sovereignty in 1640, when King John IV of the House of Braganza was restored onto the Independent Portuguese throne, then supported by the English throne & parliament! This was then an important development historically between these two countries (Portugal & England), as this also effectively reactivated the ancient Treaty of Windsor, 1386 that had then been concluded & ratified by the courts of John I in Portugal & Edward III in England & Parliament as well that it still continues in effect in diplomatic, defence, political & economic cycles up till the present day between the two countries! Last year in 2023 marked the 650th anniversary of the Treaty of Taghilda (1373), then marked & officially celebrated in both countries, Britain & Portugal, as the initial Treaty that bound the two kingdoms into the Anglo-Portuguese Alliance that was afterwards ratified & substantiated at the Treaty of Windsor in 1386, when King John of the Royal House of Aviv married Philippa of Lancaster, the daughter of John of Gaunt, King Edward III’s brother, whose royal offspring & some of their descendants also became historically known as Portugal’s Golden Generation(s) of Rulers!

[@CatRoxMusic]

The sad thing is that they're not even speaking portuguese from Portugal, they're speaking portuguese from Brasil. Damn sick would be if they got that part right to begin with :/

[@cyberiansailor9741]

@@CatRoxMusic Yeah I think it has to do how Japan and Brasil have a close relationship. Still beats hearing Portuguese sailors and clergymen speaking English with each other. The only one speaking English is our Protagonist and that only for the first two episodes at most with his crew

[@CatRoxMusic]

@@cyberiansailor9741 Yeah I get that, different experience for sure :) but it would've been great to hear actual portuguese from Portugal ^^"

[@liliansea5468]

Your video essay is wonderful. ❤️ I'm glad I found this underrated gem.

[@hundredfireify]

6:24 "Keikaku means plan" Lmao. I'm not sure how many will get the joke (the Death note anime is 18 years old now!), and now *I* feel old

[@DAoutaouais]

I honestly stumbled across this video by accident. It so happens that - before poor health made it impossible to continue professionally and academically - I was immersed in the world of applied linguistics. A Canadian/British dual national, now living in Scotland, I paid the bills by teaching English as a foreign language, while I studied towards working with minority language preservation and endangered language revitalisation.... essentially, trying to "save" the world from English (my native tongue); a paradoxical compromise I have found many in the field have had to make, at some point. Based on the title, I was expecting to find technical notes on a specific treatment of translation. Instead, I found so much more. It is clear that @Dankym cares deeply for the subject, and has taken careful consideration to address many perspectives and questions. The result was a lot more philosophical than what I was ready for, but it was so much better for me - to learn and grow - than what I had first imagined. Thank you! I have subscribed, and, in time, I shall be looking into previous videos by this creator, eagerly and with interest.

[@dankym]

Thank you so much for the kind words. I do talk more about linguistics in my Chants of Sennaar video, but that's about it. It just so happens to be one of my interests, but I do hope to incorporate more of it in my future videos.

[@黒板消しブリーダー]

Your content is so perfect, especially the topic about poetry (Tanka and Haiku). Thank you.

[@dankym]

@@黒板消しブリーダー Thank you, I wish I knew more about poetry, but I’m glad you liked it enough.

[@Enhancedlies]

and all it takes is one second, and one video to know this is a masterpiece and a gem of a find! 2k subs?! i was expecting way more

[@CosmoJarvisClips]

Great deep dive! I like your take on it and great video in general

[@Volatilevinnie]

It took me over an hour and some to get through this video. I learned a lot. Props to you!

[@dankym]

I'm glad you made effort to finish it. All props to the creators for making the show!

[@chocom4546]

Great review and insight into Shogun. Love it!

[@serhiyroyter8434]

Outstanding video, it reminds me of a take I had back when Shōgun episodes were coming out, we had Japanese representing Japanese, English representing English, and also English representing Portuguese? My single complaint about the show is I wish the Portuguese was just Portuguese. We’re all already reading subtitles. I think that would include even more opportunities for introducing subtlety and depth in translation, with another beautiful language.

[@KayGee-r5o]

I am convinced part of Shogun's renewed appeal in the US and possibly Britain is that a large part of our culture could now be construed as the direct opposite of feudal Japanese culture of honor and unforgivable shame for even a hint of disrespect... We are fortunate to be reminded that there is a better way than believing liars and cultivating ignorance and at least some of us must prevent our world's from spiraling into the void forever.

[@_Tengri]

The words in the ending of the video were just flawless. Thank you

[@mkkm1701]

Fantastic essay!

[@jasozilux3791]

Very informative, thank you for your hard work!

[@MM-xm8ot]

As a J>E translator, I loved this video! And as a gamer, I immediately clocked the Okami soundtrack, lol

[@dankym]

Thank you, it is a great soundtrack. Yeah I would have liked to use the Shogun soundtrack itself, but it was already risky enough to just use footage of the show. So I had to substitute it with the Okami and Ghost of Tsushima soundtrack. Though listening to them, it makes me want to play both again.

[@maemuraakinori]

Thanks!

[@dankym]

@@maemuraakinori Oh my god thank you!

[@maemuraakinori]

@@dankym great analysis. I really enjoyed the layers of language and elaboration in the translation in this drama, but not so capable to make it into language. You made it. Thank you.

[@Velereonics]

My favorite translation from that badly translated Star wars was "our dichotomy opens the combat" as opposed to " if you are not with me then you are my enemy"

[@tommymaxey2665]

Shogun was a great show. It was visually impressive, but the writing was amazing. Not only do they have to write for english, but also Japanese, and how the translation would work. It kinda reminds me of Inglorious Bastards. So many languages mix together, and depending on how many languages you know, the more you truly understand the scene. Another show that does language good is a French animated show called "Les Grand Grand Vancanes." It's about 2 French kids staying with their grandparents in Normandy during ww2. Everyone in the show speaks their language. Germans speak german, French speak French, and when a British pilot shows up, he speaks english. A German soilders may speak french but it'll be broken. It's been a while since i watched it (High School French 4 in 2019) but subtitles are used very rarely. Another show that i don't like how it did language was Vinland Saga. Foreword, i love Vinand Saga its amazing, but why is everyone speaking and not speaking the same language. Characters will go from speaking perfect English or Japanese, depending on your dub audio, to broken languge because they are talking to an Englishmen or Frenchman. I would love if Vinland Saga had a moslty historically accurate language dub. So the Vikings would speak norse, English would speak old English, Wealsh would speak whatever their weird ass language is, and Frenchman would speak old French. Would it be almost impossible, yes thats a lot of translation for languages that are not good for tv, but it would be cool as hell

[@dankym]

@@tommymaxey2665 A more authentic and accurate dub for Vinland Saga would be cool. Not very necessary nor easy to do, but I could see it as a cool fan project. We already got a Welsh voice actor well known in the anime online community.

[@patricksprecher8221]

20:54 Ghost of Tsushima mentioned!!! Really great Video keep it up🫶

[@CatRoxMusic]

Just a note at the 20:27 mark, that's not ancient portuguese, it's not even european portuguese (the language portuguese people speak)... It's brasilian portuguese, the portuguese spoken in Brasil. Careful with the mix ups, both languages may be portuguese but they are not the same. The portuguese (you know, from Portugal) spoke, and speak, european portuguese, not brasilian.

[@dankym]

Oh I'm well aware, I did it for a joke which is more evident in the captions.

[@CatRoxMusic]

@dankym Oh, I apologize then 🙏 Didn't get it was a joke 😅 My bad!

[@dankym]

@@CatRoxMusic All good, no worries

[@freebornjohn2687]

Clavell based his book on William Adams an English sailor who sailed with a Dutch expedition to Japan in 1598. I've read a biography of him and its an incredible story of an incredible life - well worth reading.

[@alexsmith9617]

I have to say that my favorite version of the original Shogun from the 80s was their first version. In that version, they relied on subtitles more than overdubbed exposition. At that time, tv execs didn’t think the US audience could handle subtitles. I thought the subtitles added quite a bit of depth to their performances.

[@Eruantallen]

Brilliant essay! ✨

[@Djaybird]

Amazing work 🙏

[@goobfilmcast4239]

Just completed my second viewing and am very happy to have stumbled on to your essay. I hope that streaming studios use the example of Shogun to offer quality projects that offer themselves for multiple viewings and cogent analysis. It’s sad that so many current shows are just complete garbage considering the amount of money poured into them. The worst offender is Amazon’s Rings of Power. So much promise and potential spoiled.

[@cQ2DHPavXTqemm9Vsbgi4TV7x]

beautiful video

[@slyphknttdotdotdot637]

"hot diggity dog Ishido, Toranaga weaseled his way out of the god darn castle"

[@jgg088]

Well done Sir! Good show

[@saitamablz1512]

I am Brazilian i see you vídeo subtitles kkkk belo trabalho

[@carlosdelgado2737]

How i miss to see the faces of Richard Chamberlain, Toshirō Mifune and John Rhys-Davies

[@eleanornelson5810]

Shogun, the book is one of my all time favorite books! I’ve read it several times. In the book, once a phrase is used, for example “Wakaremasu ka?”, and explained (Do you understand?), they use it in the book without explaining. The TV show honors this from the book.

[@rfmerrill]

6:42 you think you can just sneak "Cherry Blossom Storm" into a video and NOT have me comment about it?!

[@dankym]

Appreciate that you did.

[@wildreeds]

👏👏

[@comradeofthebalance3147]

Either I misunderstood your title, being new and all, but half of the video does not seem to be about the translation and interpretation part of the show

[@yvonnereyes9954]

I'm an avid fan of subtitled movies.

[@amievil3697]

I would right student evaluation progression comments in English then translate to Korean then back to English. We would all have drinks and laugh away for hours.

[@SleepyPotterFan]

I think the only (partial) disappointment I have is the composers. Following up with their interview in Variety, it seems like they put in A LOT of work and spent two years on it, for which they absolutely deserve their kudos, but the interview also has them explaining they only used gagaku and authentic music as a ‘texture’ so they could basically create other moods with the music than just comfort. Which implies that Japanese music CAN’T, which is one of those generalizations that having local input can easily fix.

[@dankym]

I do like the soundtrack but absolutely they can make an eerie soundtrack with just Japanese instruments. They did partner with many traditional JP musicians. However, I do appreciate the fact that they didn’t just want to make stereotypical Japanese music. If I heard some of the tracks out of context, I wouldn’t have thought it was from a show in feudal Japan, and yet it fits so well. Even finding background music for this video, I was conflicted in using just ‘Japanese music’ since the show uses more. Maybe the quote was out of context and sounded bad, but I felt they wanted to open their options up for the soundtrack to also embrace a mix of cultures. Also I read they used a rubber band to hit a note the traditional JP instrument couldn’t, so maybe thats some of the limitations.

[@ajbnmd]

A masterpiece “on” translation?

[@dankym]

@@ajbnmd Yes it’s intentional. While it could be a masterpiece “of” translation, I didn’t want to mislead. I don’t go into detail how individual words or phrases are translated and localized. More so, I focus on the general act of translation, and how that affects the story and production of the show.

[@rmbl88]

The series only fails on one thing...the japonese speak of course japanese, but the portuguese language is portrayed in english. And blackthorne, who is english, speaks in english when it was supposed to be portuguese...that doesn't make sense at all. It would sound much richer with real portuguese speaking actors.

[@dankym]

@@rmbl88 The creators recognized that, and said that maybe another Shogun adaptation in the future can do that. They thought about doing Portuguese accents but didn’t like it.

[@rmbl88]

@@dankym it just seems to me as a missed opportunity, especially knowing that a Portuguese actor, Joaquim de Almeida, was already cast in the show.

[@adelezakus4795]

I can understand, wanting to portray all the languages properly. They only had so much money and they were using everything with regard to the Japanese culture, language, wardrobe, fighting. Also, considering this is feudal Japan the language nuances are different, the walking is different andThe fighting is different. I can see why they spent most of their time in considering making sure that the Japanese representation was fully immersed that included bringing someone along to Translate the Japanese into English subtitles. I had a hard time, figuring out the honorifics as I haven’t watched enough Japanese TV. I really enjoyed this video.

[@erikm8372]

But the subtitles are in English for the Japanese… so… if it were truly historically accurate, we’d be seeing Portuguese (historical) writing and Japanese script. And only people who understood those could watch.

[@MeeesterBond17]

I suppose finding an English actor who speaks fluent Portuguese might be difficult, particularly european Portuguese.

[@Mike111Chou]

Fine I’ll watch shogun

[@miguelsi7543]

🤌🏼

[@RasheedKhan-he6xx]

Ummm. The novel, written in English, was an exploration of how early contact between cultures might have taken form. It's whole point is that the challenge of cross-cultural communication is not only that of language. (The 1980s television adaptation intentionally didn't have subtitles - so non-Japanese speaking audiences would experience the same feeling of being lost and confused that John did). The love story and the dramatic historical background are just literary devices added to keep the reader entertained. So a half hour video laboriously pointing out the obvious and one in which you treat the Japanese dialogue as source material forgetting that it is itself a translation from the original English, seems pointless? If anything we should highlight the Japanese dialogue writers who by all accounts elevated Clavell's fairly pedestrian English prose into nuanced and poetic classical Japanese but you don't do that. I dunno. Maybe I'm missing something.

[@dankym]

This video might simply be not for you or have what you are looking for, and that's fine. I wanted to showcase the themes of Shogun, but it looks like you're already well familiar with them. This video more so focuses on the act of translation rather than the individual translations made. I had an earlier draft where I did feature more lines and how they were translated, but they were claimed, so I had to remove them and shift the focus of the video. I also showcase how translation was used in the production of the series itself, like how they decided on how the subtitles look, or the poetry not being exact. If you want to know how some individual lines were translated, I suggest looking up the viewer's guide. At the bottom of the episode 8 guide, they talk about linked verse poetry and breakdown the particular Japanese words used in the exchange between Toranaga and Mariko. www.fxnetworks.com/shows/shogun/viewers-guide/episode-guide/episode-8

[@richardrose7382]

YW