Making knights relevant in worlds with magic

Let's explore the different ways to make Knights and warriors relevant in worlds filled with magic wizards and sorcerers.
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#FantasyRearmed

[@tristan_ahmaru]

Shad I just finished Shadow of the Conqueror! A truly emotional masterpiece, please tell me when the second book is coming out! I don't want to wait.

[@yolowop18]

Does this magic in Shad’s magical universe use geokinesis superpowers or magic? If so, that will be a FLAW in his story, because Iron is the third most common element making up an earth-like planet. So, moving rock, dirt, or minerals will be a MAJOR FLAW in Shad’s assessment about magic being repelled by iron. That is, if any characters in his Universe, uses an earth-like element magic or superpower. Sorry Shad, but you’ll have to go back to the drawing board.

[@yolowop18]

Iron filings are small shavings of a ferromagnetic material, but studies doesn’t show that iron fillings in a horseshoe is more refined than iron itself. So, one will have to say that iron shavings in a horseshoe is exactly just that - Regular iron minerals. Unless, you have a study to bring forth. Otherwise, Shad needs to go back to the drawing board.

[@pinkliongaming8769]

@@yolowop18 what does that have to do with anything?

[@MaaZeus]

@@pinkliongaming8769 He has been spamming this same comment on multiple posts. Ignore him.

[@receivedbeans8555]

Is it actually really good? I didn’t consider getting the book at first because a lot of KZbinrs come out with books that tend to be kinda trash and I’m pretty picky when it comes to fantasy. I might have to look into it if it’s as good as you say. I suppose it’d depend on my tastes. I’m feeling talkative for 3 am, so I’ll share. Usually I like my fiction somewhat depressing, but not super edgy. A realistic level of grim, not Warhammer 40k grim (I am a Warhammer fan, but it’s an exception to the rule). Comedy and Romance are excellent for engagement if done right, but not necessary (Not RomCom, unless it’s anime). Stupidity is a big immersion breaker for me, but as long as it’s not rife throughout the book, it’s ok (Still loses points though). Rich lore and a really thought provoking story (As a big history, political geography, and philosophy nerd, rich lore in the first 2, and thought provoking in a philosophical sense are major pluses). I enjoy challenging reads, but I also don’t read “deep” books as often because I actually have to be fully awake to understand them. By “deep” I mean written in a more old fashion or academic style, sort of like research reports or a poorly translated “Tao Te Ching.” Anyways I’ve rambled on long enough. If the book sounds like something I’d like lmk or ignore me either is find tbh.

[@aidanthornton173]

This came up once at my D&D table. The groups wizard asked the local king why he didn't create an army of wizards instead of soldiers. The king told him: In the time it takes to train a single magic initiate to not blow his hands off while casting a simple cantrip, I could train 100 men in the proper use of the bow and sword. Training a single wizard requires a great investment of time and resources, and that's assuming the wizard passes his trials and doesn't die upon the lavatory the next day because he chose to celebrate with a spicy curry.

[@josephteller9715]

Same with history.... foot soldiers are cheap, Knights are expensive. It takes 20 support people and several hundred acres of land to supply a night & his horses. Green footmen, with spears are cheap and can be conscripts. Archers (yeomen) are bit more expensive but are effective as long as they keep range on their targets. Mages need support equipment that far exceeds either in costs. If mages are like alchemists they will need a lab, glassblowers, someone to make charcoal for them etc. (Alchemists making explosives, smoke bombs, greek fire etc. can be used as a good analogy to magic users for how you control and limit things. The Mage would need a pack mule or a full wagon if going to war and time to prepare a collection of supplies to bring, set up and use.

[@MaaZeus]

Indeed. AFAIK in most fantasy scenarios Wizards are a rarity and their training takes a long, LONG time. Capable wizards that are worth a damn in battle, instead of being a hazard to everyone around them, tend to be well into their middle ages. Building an army of wizards is almost impossible, the time required is too much and even among those in training a majority of them are either failures or end up dead prematurely because they arrogantly tried something foolish with their new magic talents. Getting a bunch of conscripts and training them with a way of the sword and bow is much more efficient.

[@ericmurotake5180]

Another possibility is that large numbers of mages are impractical not just due to resources, but also capability to fight in units. Large mage formations require potential investments of supplies, plus SUPERLATIVE coordination to not only avoid hitting allies, but also to reliably coordinate spell assaults. One Kingdom in a setting I played in had a division of specially trained mages, all of whom specialized in a singular spell (Fireball), and acted as a sort of artillery detachment (hanging back and salvo-firing spells with the aid of a scrying until to mark targets)

[@chris-il4qu]

@@ericmurotake5180 that sounds less like some random kingdom and more like the Central Empire of a Continent my dude. 😂😂 thats basically bringing in a modern day Artillery Battalion with unlimited ammo to go and fight some dudes with pointy sticks and swords 😂😂

[@ericmurotake5180]

@@chris-il4qu In this case, the Kingdom was entirely a magistocratic/magitech focused Kingdom, which, while not the main empire, was generally hailed as one of the biggest military powerhouse of the region (they had a massive edge with their mages, but other Kingdoms had other edges (one specialized in defensive magework like creating city wide defensive spell networks, another was renowned for "the finest fighting men in all the realms", another was known for their mastery of shadowy work (spies, assassins, covert fighters), another had a harsh land that produced deadly alchemical and guerilla masters, etc)

[@freakvampire20]

Watching Shad wearing progressively more and “heavier” armor is like watching an rpg character level up.

[@jimbotcb3985]

Straight up following his original pro-gambeson argument that it was a solid base to add extra armour to progressively as ye olde peasant could afford it

[@RainMakeR_Workshop]

Its LARP armour though. Polyurethane, Not steel.

[@alexanderguzman7781]

@@RainMakeR_Workshop He has 2 brigandine chest pieces, one is made out of proper metal and the other is a larp reproduction.

[@RainMakeR_Workshop]

@@alexanderguzman7781 I was talking about the arms.

[@speedy01247]

@@RainMakeR_Workshop arms like sword or arms like his literal arms? (I know the answer, but it took a moment for me to realize what you meant)

[@Snazzydragon]

I've always liked the "Magic attracts unwanted attention from Gods/Demons/Abberations" so magic is great if you're a small adventuring team, but for pitched battle putting that many magic users all in one place is inviting disaster far worse than their usefulness on the battlefield.

[@MrEvan1932]

Aka Warhammer

[@madtechnocrat9234]

except that if you start losing you can nuke your opponent then...

[@elderscrollsswimmer4833]

Sounds like Percy Jackson and the Olympians. The more "magic" power a demigod has, the more that person attracts monsters. They don't need to even use their power; just having it, being aware of it and using it all add up to the lure monsters scent they have.

[@wado1942]

A pegan friend of mine who is into magik, says it's all about influence. You can't *make* something happen, just increase your chances. Also, an equal and opposite reaction is happening elsewhere. Like, if you cast a spell to protect one person, you're endangering somebody else. I think that makes a lot of sense.

[@poopsiepop4179]

Bro just up the ante with war crimes. Can't cast spells without air to breathe, can't cast spells if you're breathing in mustard gas, can't cast spells if you're scalded by burning phosphorus, can't cast spells if you have your hands and tongue chopped off. Can't cast targetted spells if enemy uses smoke screens. Can't cast spells if specialized slingers are raining nigh-invisible leaden projectiles on you.

[@M-Cyn4269]

5:34 this reminds me of a quote from the Vlad Taltos books "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style."

[@blackfin2389]

Imagine Voldemort just getting breakfast and the last thing anyone would ever think of happens killing him instantly...Harry shoots him from across the street with a gun he purchased from the IRA

[@arcangherss999]

I mean, the horcruxes would protect him but that would be a bloody scare, hahaha

[@jamescawl6904]

@@arcangherss999 what about explosives? Will the horcruxes protect him from that?

[@arcangherss999]

@@jamescawl6904 I mean, It should protect him from even f*caking desintegration since it will ensure you won't actually die as long as your soul is in one of the objects (Basically Lordy Voldy is a lich). But that doesn't mean it protects the body. I guess it can regenerate, but there's a possibility he might have to go around and possess another body. It would be a good way to stall him and deter him for a while.

[@jamescawl6904]

@@arcangherss999 imagine voldemort gets targeted by the british empire for trying to upend the status quo. There could be wizards trained by the british military and british intelligence for the sole purpose of destroying voldemort for good. Instead we have harry boi who only uses less than a dozen spells in the entire story.

[@arcangherss999]

@@jamescawl6904 I mean, yeah. A good amount of V4 adequately placed or "apparated" near Lordy Voldy would probably fuck him up and blow him to pieces. That could work once, maybe twice, but it wouldn't be a definitive answer. Sadly, although he is a pretty pathetic Dark Lord, Voldemort is REALLY hard to kill because literal things are attached to his soul. HOWEVER, I do admit it would be great (and a bit funny) to see an NCIS style of show with a group of Wizards and high-level IRA/MI6 Agents searching for the Horcruxes and ways to destroy them and just as Harry decides to go out to get them, like 5 out of 7 already vanished and people are like what the fuck? Suddenly, a shadowy figure comes out of nowhere, James Bond style and bloody shoots Harry's head off, making Voldemort completely helpless to a tactical bombing.

[@ChrisBrown-re3vn]

Don't forget that warriors don't just fight wizards. Monsters that have enhanced magical defenses (or even absorb and reuse magic) would be enough reason to train some warriors in the area.

[@terryanisaurasrex2207]

And with this creatures people can then purchase their hides, scales, etc. to make weapons or armor that negate or weaken magic so now for higher level combat you need these armors and subsequently in a mage duel if you’re both wearing magic proof armor then it’s more effective for people to attack with melee weapons so now warriors can be used as a counter to magicians

[@CorruptPianist]

@@terryanisaurasrex2207 Now mages can train in combat that uses magic to heighten their physical abilities, so over time they'll get the edge again. Depends on how long it's been since the people of this setting made this discovery, and how much time people have had to form a new martial art.

[@bobbobbing4220]

a man with leather armour steps forth, challenging the wizard... his hide is made from magic resistant beasts..

[@jasonleejames_official]

Another thing altogether is sometimes magic has cast time, sometimes different metals resist different elements, like one metal could resist fire another could resist cold, while leather or hide could resist lightning.

[@bearandthebull2372]

@@terryanisaurasrex2207 This is actually how it sorta works in ES.Even though anyone can theoretically wear a robe and learn spells with enough willpower and time,there's both monsters with ridiculous magic resistance and enchantments which straight up negate magic. On top of enchantments turning weapons and armor into death machines,they allow a strong warrior to go toe to toe with beings that even the mages have trouble against with sheer brute force.Plus battlemages can allow these two styles to be mixed,which advocates for more martial training over raw magic as well.

[@Barbarossa2690]

I've always liked the Warhammer-esque style of magic. Where being a mage gave you incredible power, but the more of that power you harness, the more likely it will horrifically backfire on you.

[@loturzelrestaurant]

The Manga ‚Lazy Noble becomes Reformed’ is literally the Answer to this Video here.

[@keithstone8693]

A little vague there Damien. What sorta backfire are we talking ?

[@Barbarossa2690]

@@keithstone8693 In Warhammer? Demonic possession, horrific mutations, ripping holes in the fabric of reality, etc. But for a different setting it could just be hard to control. Trying to cast a fireball? You must exert your will over one of the most chaotic primal forces in the universe or be consumed by it. Casting death magic? You're drawing energy to yourself that is antithetical to you being alive. Without the appropriate skill or protections, magic could be like walking into a nuclear reactor in your birthday suit.

[@christiankoch5646]

@@Barbarossa2690 That sounds fair. The more you yin, the more you get yanged.

[@_Hierophant]

No I promise I meant to shoot that into my own formation, it was a morale move to show them what happens

[@quantumastrologer5599]

In skyrim was a book (dunno which one honestly) which described an invasion of a foreign land and the role of battle mages in that scenario. Turns out later in the raid the were unable to throw fireballs and what not since they were all exhausted and mainly preoccupied using their magics for communicating between the fronts and such. Loved the idea that mages apart from being a powerful force also were used for utility and logistics and were susceptible to fatigue.

[@evalationx2649]

In Dragon Age I liked the way the Templars could "cleanse" an area with their own magic after they consume a Lyrium Potion. Giving them an advantage over the now defenseless mages they are hunting down. The draw back to that is Lyrium is highly addictive, leaving many Templars in a state of severe withdrawal if they haven't drank a potion in a while.

[@deadslayerpl3480]

Not only that,they also have whole training dedicated to exterminate any magic threat. Simple shield raising just to redirect fireball is awesome

[@marvolofarhel1578]

That’s what I was thinking. Dragon age has a good setup that mages are really powerful, but they are kept in check by the templars who are specifically trained to fight mages, allowing normal warriors and rouges to exist as normal. I just really like the world building.

[@BasicLich]

Agreed!

[@3cho787]

Yeah but there aren't any real draw backs other than headaches and lack of energy if you decide to stop talking it that is until the withdraw wears off and you're back to normal

[@NaraMouse101]

@@3cho787 I think that you're vastly underselling the severity of lyrium withdrawal. Most drugs irl only cause physical withdrawal symptoms for a couple of weeks, peaking within a few days. Where as lyrium withdrawal continues for an unknown length of time, seemingly peaking months after the last dose. Lyrium withdrawal has also killed templars that tried to quit.

[@dappernecromancer5364]

"What ho, muscle wizard! Might you cast for us a spell?" "Of course young adventurers. I CAST FIST."

[@AveSicarius]

Muscle wizard is the wizard any self-respecting magic-user should be if they want to survive for long. How do you best both swords and sorcery? Cast a bunch of self-buffs to make yourself nearly invulnerable to either, then run around (very fast) with your sentient +10 sword that can cut through pretty much anything. Int-20 strength-20 is the only way to go!

[@AveSicarius]

@Andrei Salvaleon Who cares about the size of your armor when you can fly! Who cares about mobility when you can stand like a mountain and let the hordes break upon you! Who cares about dodging when you can successfully grapple a giant and scream in their face while repeatedly casting shocking grasp! Blunderbuss indeed! On a more serious note, I do wish that strength was a little more appealing in some RPGS. Dexterity sometimes seems more "optimal" (not something you should care about in a RP context but people always bring it up anyway) in many cases. I don't want to dance around like a knife-ear, I want to trade blow for blow!

[@danielhounshell2526]

@@AveSicarius it's optimal sometimes, mainly if you get a lot of attacks each round. If you don't then maxing out dex just won't give you as much damage as strength weapons, especially for classes like paladin that rely mostly on hitting something once or twice really hard (at least in Pathfinder, I don't play 5e much unless it's a one shot, progression there is just less interesting imo).

[@danielhounshell2526]

@Andrei Salvaleon that's when you go magus, they get a class ability that lets them ignore spell failure. Plus spell failure only affects arcane casters. You can still be a muscle cleric and spam cold ice strike without a care in the world.

[@TheMadTurtle]

HADOUKEN

[@AngryBoozer]

The pendant in Wheel of Time also has one drawback. It only prevents the wearer from being affected by magic. If the caster, let's say, levitates a boulder and throws it at them, the pendant won't be much protection

[@loturzelrestaurant]

Know Veritasium, i wonder? I mean, this channel here is nice, but Veritasium is NICE.

[@TheRenegade...]

@@loturzelrestaurant How is that relevant?

[@sebastianb.3978]

@@TheRenegade... probably a bot or alt for self advertisement

[@valhalla_1129]

@@sebastianb.3978 it's not self-advertisement, Veritasium wouldn't stoop to that level. He's cool. the commenter is still an idiot for bringing it up or a bot though. Probably not many people would make a bot to talk about some other youtuber though, so most likely a real person.

[@mansfieldtime]

I like the limitations of exhaustion. The wizard can only perform so many spells or the spells get weaker after each use because it is using their energy. If that were the case, like in Christopher Paolini's Eragon magic had to be focused, used sparingly and tactically. I remember there was one point when one of the talented wizards used a spell to burst a blood vessel in someone's head. Good easy read.

[@dylanguignion2036]

okay regarding innovative uses of magic... if uv seen konosuba, u know aqua is the godes of water. do you know how much of the human body is water? enough of it. wonder if kazuma knows this... aqua probably does, but (as she so consistantly does) fails to effectively apply her factual knowledge.

[@mastertubbily1812]

@@dylanguignion2036behold Konosuba, the sexual harassment show

[@durttheelder4035]

And that series has if you accidently over exert yourself through casting a spell that is too ambitious for your energy levels it can kill you I also like how Wizard duels are done "you can't just fire a spell to kill a user because even if they don't know how to counter the attack they have enough time to fire something kill you" so you have to pierce their mind first

[@alecsmith3448]

I have always figured that wizards would function on the battlefield somewhat like artillery, they could theoretically slaughter the enemy regulars, but first have to deal with the enemy wizards who are a threat to them. Thus battles would resolve into two, one between the warriors and one between the wizards. If thevwarriers break through then the enemy wizards must turn attention to them and thus will be destroyed by your wizards, if your wizards break through they will be free to attack the enemy infantry

[@ShadowsOfTheSky]

That’s how War was waged in Christopher Paoloni’s Inheritance cycle, because a single caster could theoretically kill thousands in an instant, the battalions have wards on them, so it’s battle of wizards vs wizards, and then when the wizard casting the wards is dead, suddenly that battalion is susceptible to instant death, having lost their wards

[@BENR8108]

Raistlin Majere has his “origins” book basically show that. I enjoyed it at the time.

[@imo098765]

@@ShadowsOfTheSky Thats the Eragon author, if I recall. It was find and kill their wizard before they find and kill yours

[@couldawa7114]

@@imo098765 from what I remember it was just boiled down to he wanted to get revenge and targeted a wizard but it's been forever

[@romanivantsyk2785]

Wizards were crucial to win Battle of Sodden

[@Huczek141]

If there are thousands of footmen for every mage, this question answers itself. Just like in today world of drones, tanks and jets we still need foot soldiers with humble ak's and ar - 15's.

[@Tracker947]

It depends on the caliber and type of magic. In some cases, it is more like a nuke than a drone, which would obsolete soldiers if it wasn't for mutually assured destruction.

[@darthsidius9631]

So obvious

[@bimlauyomashitobi421]

Also war isn’t all about killing power. Ultimately the objective is to make the enemy stop fighting you, preferably on your terms. And, due to this, ultimately, killing machines like Blackhawk helicopters and snipers, despite being extraordinarily effective at killing, are failures in war. In Afghanistan, for instance, the taliban views the use of blackhawks as cowardly due to just how overpowered they are in comparison to the common footsoldier, so instead of seeing their friends get mowed down and surrendering it angers them further and calls more to action against us. The only reason nukes worked to end WW2 in Japan was because America was the only nation that had them.

[@janinecat1865]

Obligatory reminder that ar-15 is not a battlefield weapon

[@Huczek141]

@@janinecat1865 I said ar-15, because its more broad than m4 or m4a1, and covers the entire "family" of rifles. For example Canadians use C8, who may look like m4's, but are a different gun.

[@ValeTheOwl]

I'm also writing a novel, and in my setting knights are actually considered stronger (or at least more cost effective) than wizards. I go with the option of "empowering" the knights (they use their "aura" to enhance their fighting capabilities) coupled with "nerfing" the wizards (casting actual spells is TERRIBLY tiring). While hurling magic spells at the enemy might be flashy, a warrior that can fight at superhuman level for a whole battle is just more practical than a wizard that stops being useful after casting one or two spells. However, where "discrete magic" shines is in the support roles: wizards handle communication, intelligence, healing and pretty much all non direct combat activities. An average wizard may not be able to cast more than 2 or 3 fireballs, but they can use "message" spells all day to communicate with other wizards regardless of the distance. This, however, apply to the average aura-using warrior and average wizard. At the highest levels, wizards still have a HUGE edge. For example, an extremely elite aura warrior may be able to do stuff like cutting a small hill in half, but an elite sorcerer could nuke cities. That said, people who do get at that level are extremely rare (1 in several millions) so on average, the use of knights is still fully justified.

[@user-jy2sj4ed4i]

Sounds well thought and a future good read

[@svetochmira9994]

You reminded me of "Awaken online" book series. There is one battle where air mages are used as communication network, and necromancer specifically targets air mages and turns into "zombies" and instructs to create mayhem in enemy command structure)

[@toddkes5890]

The other idea is that magic takes time to learn, while peasants are already strong and tough. So it is fairly easy to get a basic army and equip them with armor and clubs, but getting a good magic user requires that a few people are kept in relative luxury for several years, hoping that one or more of them will have the spark of magic. High investment, but potential high reward. Knights also require a strong investment in time (both for their skills, armor, and horse), but you are far more likely to have a knight at the end

[@svetochmira9994]

@@toddkes5890 well, if its only about resources, than guess i guess that your world aristocracy will most like be wizards, or wizard descendants, basically usurping most advanced knowledge, magical techniques etc... and peasants will be scanned for magical talent, and most talented will be "asked" to marry into the family. also being a rogue wizard will be viewed as being outlaw.

[@toddkes5890]

@@svetochmira9994 For a Rogue wizard, the question becomes what they are getting out of it. Did the wizard belong to a family that got deposed and now the wizard has to make a living however they can? Is the wizard choosing to go rogue to help the peasants (potentially starting a rebellion against the current feudal lords)? If a rogue wizard is rumored to be in the territory, a noble would probably want to (politely) invite that wizard to have dinner and talk with the wizard and find out their goals. Peasants would be rewarded if they spotted a rogue wizard, to encourage the peasants to keep their eyes open.

[@The_Somewhere_Monarch]

One of my favorite interactions in DnD is how a silence field prevents the use of spells with verbal components. Which is like all the paladin, cleric, and bard spells plus 90% of the spells on other spelllists.

[@Estalarki]

I must say, the beginning was definitely a flawless representation of a knight vs a magic user

[@SackofDooDoo]

Pokemon, Shadiversity edition

[@onceuponarevenant9409]

A regular knight may not be able to, but a mystic knight or enchanter paladin, is a different story.

[@metalmike3780]

UNLIIIMITED POOOWWWAAAA

[@eggcelentrat4005]

I remember a magic system that was so funny that it became my favorite of all time were the effects of magic can be lessend by your willpower so you could literally refuse to be burned by fireball and if you were stubborn Enough it'd be like throwing a match at you

[@sofar55]

I think you might be talking about the Galaxy Outlaws series. It's a sci-fi+magic series where "mages" have to persuade the universe that the thing they want to happen is the way it naturally is. You have to tell the door that it's actually unlocked and should open. Non-living objects are easier to "convince" because most people are self assured of their identity and unlikely to be changed much.

[@thenecromorpher]

That sounds stupid, I like it; just refuse someone's preferred reality to refuse them lighting you on fire.

[@eggcelentrat4005]

@@sofar55 I don't actually remember we're it came from I just remember the magic system because it sounded so wacky to me it stole my heart

[@jennaherman3859]

@@eggcelentrat4005 sounds like warhammer 40k honestly belief has a huge impact in that setting

[@peaceprinceshaxi5978]

Ah So dnd or pathfinder illusion magic x) if you smart enough, no scary monster If not Then phabtasmal killer

[@TheRednaxelas]

The long bow knight giving the bird to the wizard was too perfect!

[@xCr00k3Dx]

*silver knights after shooting my squishy mage off the peaks of Anor Londo for the 476th fine* 🖕🖕🖕

[@kodyjayvin]

Many fantasy settings have things like "Aura" that warriors can gain. It's basically a special ability that gives super human powers. Not everyone can do it. Only 1 out of 100 warriors will ever unlock aura, but the strongest could cut a mountain in half. Doesn't have to be that strong, but it works. Often time, only prodigy's or people who are in life or death situations can unlock aura.

[@svetochmira9994]

Yeah shad talked about "Qi" warriors

[@slayeroffurries1115]

One Piece's Haki

[@uchophamxuan6515]

​@@slayeroffurries1115 no no, OP Armanent Haki is an invisible energy armor, it's more of DB's Ki

[@devingunnels3251]

Shad, you missed the most obvious answers: spells require both time and concentration to work. By the time a wizard would be even halfway through prepping a big spell, a knight could close the distance and cut him down. It would also be hard to concentrate when a guy in full armor is charging at you;

[@joedatius]

I mean it depends really. because in many of these cases if you took a typical wizard they could easily out range the knight and deal severe damage or death from afar, not to mention mind altering and body controlling abilities. if the knight is allowed to be experienced so would the wizard and their ability to cast relatively quickly and hold their concentration wouldn't be a hindrance especially when you can cast a spell that forces the knight to stop entirely

[@hewdelfewijfe]

@@joedatius It depends on context. What's the time to cast? How close are the combatants when one or both notice each other? If the quickest that you can cast the spell is 1 minute, and if casting requires line of sight to your target, then that's a pretty huge limitation.

[@joedatius]

@@hewdelfewijfe sure if you give all the disadvantages to the mage but when would there even be spell times of one minute? I literally never heard of any wizard characters needing any more then a handful of seconds or less to cast. also many spells would naturally not need line of sight but thats not even a limitation since the same thing goes for anyone else.

[@seanslaysean7097]

Like having to recite a prayer/spell

[@hewdelfewijfe]

@@joedatius For example, plenty of magic systems have magic users performing rituals with lots of chanting which takes longer than a few seconds.

[@Neptune0404]

Another fairly easy "fix" is that magic is complex and takes time. So in a standard duel, by the time the mage was ready to use his magic, the warrior would have reached him and cut him down. A variation of this from my DM's "D&D" setting (technically riddle of steel, but D&D setting gives you the vibe) is essentialy that if a mage wants to make magic of any significant effect, they either need to take a long time to cast it, or risk the spell backfiring as casting quickly is more difficult. Meaning that only the most skilled mages will be able to create lethal magic at a moments notice, while most would either need more time, or would only be able to wound someone at the most.

[@bigbossgreek]

Sounds a lot like the ritual spells from Thieves World.

[@Draco_WarriorEX]

In actual D&D, Wizards prepare their spells ahead of time, and the spell is just sitting there waiting to be fired in an instant. So, if spells take a lot of time to warm up, someone will eventually find a way to store spells like this for use later and become king of the magicians. Either that, or someone would use the magic known as "Git Gud", and be able to cast spells as 2nd nature, which is closer to what you were saying there near the end.

[@KairuHakubi]

I used to look at DnD and think 'who would ever play a magic user, it seems so damn limited, sometimes you have to prepare spells ahead of time and you only get so many per day...' but now I realize balance is kind of tricky because outside of fiction (where nothing really seems to hurt anyone because ohnoes the kids might see), magic would be a bit OP wouldn't it..

[@lionheartt15]

in most fiction that is exactly what is used for magic that or some other forms of limitation. most fiction the most powerful mages tend to stay in guarded locations making it hard to get to them as they cast their powerful but time consuming spells while generally weaker casters seem to use swiftly cast but not very powerful spells or like eragon using magic takes the same amount of energy if you did it without magic meaning magic is powerful but very limited or like dnd mages prepared ahead of time to cast their spells. most fiction tries to limit magic to keep it from being so overwhelming to everyone else that it makes any effort to defeat the person pointless.

[@Trust751]

I think that's how magic works in Terry Pratchett's Discworld series; "That's what's so stupid about the whole magic thing, you know. You spend twenty years learning the spell that makes nude virgins appear in your bedroom, and then you're so poisoned by quicksilver fumes and half-blind from reading old grimoires that you can't remember what happens next."

[@GoblinLord]

I think Mushoku Tensei did this very well, by simply having fighting styles be advanced as far as magic can, one could argue that it's just sword flavored magic, but it still relies exclusively on physical capability, or at least mostly, they even have specific anti-magic moves like throwing your sword as soon as your opponent ends up trapping your leg or something

[@jacksongrove3409]

For a book I'm writing I went with giving warriors their own kind of power. I can honestly say balance is pretty difficult, but put my own spin on things with a third power that is also separate from magic. Been fun in this regard.

[@genericnamehere7602]

Like Ki versus Chi. Physical energy vs spiritual.

[@RoninCatholic]

Another option: _Cold Iron_ limitations. Not just having wizards unable to wear armor, but making it more difficult to cast spells on people _wearing_ armor. There are a lot of traditions where certain magics, particularly fey powers, have difficulty with ferrous metals - this is why you hang a horseshoe over your house's entrance. Armor is already expensive, so not every warrior is going to be fully armored, and those with the wealth and resources to do so are better equipped to fight fairies, magical dragons, and evil sorcerers.

[@Nurk0m0rath]

Actually there are many legends surrounding the reasons to hang a horseshoe. There's also the luck legend, and perhaps the creepiest one is the legend that the horseshoe represents a woman's reproductive tract, and thus distracts a demon aiming to enter the house and perform a rape.

[@arianheight750]

Oh ye that's what we did in our dnd playthrough, we said our world had a rule where pure iron barely conducts magic, so mages wearing a bunch of iron stuff cannot Regen mana well, and attacks using pure mana does not affect ppl wearing iron armour much. We also said that steel also insulated mana a little bit, but less than iron.

[@robertburns4429]

Not just iron armor, the presence of iron in any significant quantity could be a factor. Even an army of peasants without metal armor is going to have a lot of iron present in spear heads.

[@jgkitarel]

He did mention that when he did his second way, even mentioning iron.

[@colinsearfoss-smith5523]

This is actually somewhat depicted in League of Legends with the country of Demacia where they have a material that be infused into metals, stone, and even raw wood(natural state) that drains weakens magic

[@moonie9000]

The thing is, knights don't need to be a match for wizards etc. if the magic users are rare enough, or the cost is high enough. Jedi still work, despite Han Solo existing.

[@laserbean00001]

That's mentioned in the video

[@adarkwind4712]

@@laserbean00001 this

[@calebbarnhouse496]

you also have the fact that not all magic is built equally, you can have a mage that can do some minor sparks, or you can summon a fire tornado

[@arctictiger8690]

Like in Eragon!

[@dominic6634]

@@arctictiger8690 Last book in that series let me down. They where great up until that point

[@biggusdickus1234]

There's actually a tabletop system I recommend, called Anima: Beyond Fantasy. Magic and Ki are separate things in that tabletop game, with magic being much more versatile and usually more powerful but much more rare, and Ki being something literally everyone has but is usually specialized because you have to specifically train it like you'd train your body, rather than simply studying.

[@mischaavros5444]

I honestly think the question is simple. A "knight" here is basically a warrior who equips themselves so they are defended against the forms of attack they are likely to face. That's why historical knights wore armor, and I think the principle transfers over to fantasy just fine, and shows up constantly in myths and legends where heroes acquire armor or items to thwart the hostile magic they face on their journey. Different magic users have different levels of power, different knights have different levels of defense.

[@dontcallme5551]

0:16 Such an emotional beginning, the camera work is flawless, the effects are so realistic that it's seems like IRL and sound is just amazing. This doesn't belong on KZbin, this should be in the Cinema.

[@ethanlocke3604]

It made me emotional. It was beautiful

[@AxxLAfriku]

I don't have any friends because they are ashamed of the videos I upload. Are they really that bad, dear eon

[@professorx3060]

@@AxxLAfriku Yes

[@bimlauyomashitobi421]

It’s simple. In a world with magic, why does everything else have to be normal? Have blacksmiths use magic to enchant the armour with anti magic-ness, or have there be magic resistant metal. Maybe the more magic resistant type of the metal, the more expensive, and only the richest knights can afford armour that wholly dispels magic. Or maybe there are limitations in the magic system itself that makes magic users vulnerable to knights. There is so much you can do in the way of making knights strong against magic users, you just need a little imagination.

[@augustinevoncarr2765]

Exactly! There are so many ways to even the playing field, you just need to use some creativity, which you should do anyways.

[@senounatsuru6453]

Dark souls did this quite nicely with knights. Faithless knights were often defeated by sorcerers, but ones who followed the way of the white and were aware of miracles had tools to mitigate the damage caused by magics.

[@luigivercotti6410]

Well it kinda defeats the original aesthetic purpose of magic if its uses are so common. Magic is/was meant to be mystical, extraordinary, an otherworldly affair, not meant to be understood by most folk of the zeitgeist. This goes into the hard magic vs soft magic concept that Hello Future Me has talked about a lot; But basically, it's entirely reasonable to expect that making the extraordinary into the mundane could make a story rather boring, at least as reasonable as it is to expect the opposite result.

[@Meatball996]

well, in any world just a "no fuck you" thing just seems kind of cheating /retconnish.

[@Gigachimp]

A big shield is enough to block a fire ball

[@nameless_the_first5197]

Two of my favorite magic systems were from Eragon and Dragonlance. Those always felt like they would realistically work and it's what I base my magic systems off of even today.

[@enraikow6109]

It's probably a lot to ask, but can you please explain how the system works? I heard from other people as well, that it's really good, but up until now i'm kinda too broke to buy the books and i have something against pirating so yeah. You don't have to if it is too much. Thanks anyway.

[@nameless_the_first5197]

@@enraikow6109 Well in Eragon using magic is like doing the actual thing. So if you try doing somthing your body couldn't physically do it would kill you. Plus Eragon has a really interesting mind system where you can probe into others minds and put up walls to block people out.

[@thatonguy2407]

I love how the series Faraway Paladin handles magic, Words of Creation are used to literally create physical phenomena, but making a mistake in your pronunciation or being interrupted can cause the spell to misfire, so many users of the Words don't get into combat. There's also the idea that the Words of a liar lose their edge, so mages need to be honest all the time, and the more powerful Words are much longer and more complex, meaning that often times its better to use a small, simple spell in creative ways than it is to use something like the Word of Entity Obliteration, which erases anything it hits from existence, because if that spell misfires, you're at risk of being hit by your own Word, and with how long it is, casting it alone is near impossible in battle. The Words system also has some crazy advantages for magic users, as they can double or even triple cast if they practice, by speaking one word while writing another in the air with their hand. Triple casting allows one person to do the normally team work of casting the Word of Entity Obliteration in a timely fashion. Words are also available to everyone, so even a normal warrior could learn the Word of Negation to stop a mage from casting their spell. Warriors also have superhuman levels of physical stats for real life, such as being able lift a wyvern, or jump multiple feet into the air, or run at super fast speeds. As one character says "get ripped, and you can solve just about anything with physical force", while he also says it's better to just train your body to fight on reflex than to come up with a bunch of ingenious techniques, because those techniques tend to be only useful in specific situations, so you should get the baseline, normal techniques down to the point you can do then without thinking. There are also magic weapons made by engraving different Words onto the blade and handle, such as a spear that can light up, or a spear that can extend, or a sword that has extra magical range and sharpness, while the more powerful magic weapons are viewed as more of a curse than a blessing. Like the sword Overeater, which absorbs the life-force of whatever it cuts for the user can make you feel immortal, even though it can be bypassed by simply shooting the user from a range, or killing them in one hit, so getting reckless because of how powerful your weapon is can easily lead to your death. Edit: I forgot to mention the benediction that some priests can use. To even use benediction in the first place, you need to make an oath to a god, and the blessings you have available depend on what kind of oath you make, like you could make an oath to Volt, god of justice and lightning, like "I will do my best to fight justly" to gain minor protection, or make an oath to Gracefeel, goddess of the flame and flux, like "I will be your sword and shield, helping all those I come across who can't help themselves, and I will drive the undead out anywhere they may be" to gain a high enough level of support to be able to call forth holy bread and water by asking, regenerate entire limbs, or force any soul back to the afterlife. The problem with making an oath like the second one is that in order to keep the blessings, you need to keep your oath. You wouldn't be able to ever ignore anyone in need or any mention if the undead without losing or significantly weakening your blessing. So magic based off Words is super strict, and can easily backfire, while magic based on the blessings of a god is only as strong as your oath, with the risk of strong oaths not being easy to keep, while a warrior's muscle power won't ever backfire on them, nor do they need to act in a certain way to use it, meaning that normal warriors are more common than high-level priests capable of doing anything for a battlefield or mages with the capacity to actually fight, while the best warriors won't be able to match the best mages or priests in a straight fight where nothing happens to mess with them. There are also elementalists who commune with the fae to cause magical effects, though that requires you to be extremely in tune with nature, it's the least risky form of magic by far though, while also being the weakest. It's best used as support from a ranger

[@deanofett]

I'm always a big fan of the "powerless guy in the story makes things work though smarts/tactics/willpower vs powerful foes" trope so I am interested in this topic!

[@prettycoolguy3206]

I've always found those stories fun too, the only problem I have with them is that they so often rely on the powerful foe being such a colossal moron that being smart/using tactics ends up being nothing more than common sense

[@potatokilr7789]

greetings, fellow explosion enjoyer

[@leenorman4140]

I think you mean Sokka from avatar lmao (I too love the regular guy surrounded by basically gods)

[@ChristianAuditore14]

Nah

[@kotarouinugami1745]

This makes the question less about knights, and more about rogues. Which is a good question too, but doesn't seem to be in Shad's style.

[@BigVince80bce]

I reckon enchanted weapons and armour that are somewhat resistant to magic. Also maybe the metal and materials used to make the armour could also have some sort of passive resistance to magic.

[@swedneck]

Yeah it's pretty common for at least specific metals to either absorb, block, or just straight up nullify magic, and i think that works quite well. Especially having metals absorb magic makes it interesting in that with enough power you can just completely ignore the protection it gives by brute forcing magic into the metal armor until it just melts. It's also interesting in that even with no magic or enchantments you could have armorsmiths that figure out how to layer and alloy metals to produce armor that is way more effective at blocking magic than a simple single-metal armor. Plus you'd need some non-conductive layer in there to negate electric attacks!

[@darthsidius9631]

And, maybe magic is just, weak af, in some fantasies for example maybe magic fire is, much weaker than real fire

[@clintonbehrends4659]

pewter is commonly magic nullifying

[@hawkticus_history_corner]

@@darthsidius9631 That's kinda how DnD does it. Like, Fireball is really just a giant microwave explosion that flash cooks stuff around it

[@gendor5199]

@@clintonbehrends4659 I did not know that! That is very interesting as I was thinking of the Copepr/Bronze being the metal for wizards, but with pewter having so much Tin in it that would mean Bronze is less effective.

[@Priceluked]

I think the most entertaining form of equaling the playing field is buffing martial archetypes with their own abilities rather than limiting magic but that's just me.

[@demi-femme4821]

Yeah a wizard can slow the flow of time and teleport, but when you're fighting someone who outruns sports cars and has the reaction speed to back it up, you'll need a good plan to take them out, and we all know what happens to plans on the battlefield.

[@snew2000]

I also like the idea knights/warriors using “magic” in more utility aspects like earth magic to harden skin, wind magic to enhance movement speed, lightning magic to enhance senses. And I’m sure there could be many more.

[@johnkiezulas7439]

I'm working on a setting right now and I took the idea that many warriors would learn spells to make them more effective and increase survivability. One example is in regards to flying cavalry, Pegasi, griffins, wyverns, ect. If they are thrown from thier saddle they need a way to catch themselves so they dont fall to thier death. The answer I came to is they would learn a flight spell so they can at least fall to the ground soft enough to not be seriously injured. I also figured a quickening spell would be great for cavalry so they can better catch up with fleeing foes and run away from forces to large for them to handle.

[@CIoudStriker]

The webnovel "A practical guide to Evil" has an interesting take on this: Knights' armors are generally inscribed with scripture, which makes it somewhat resistant to sorcery.

[@roberthudson3386]

In a nutshell: not every wizard is a master wizard, and master wizards are REALLY rare. Apprentice wizards can cast tiny shards of ice no bigger than an arrow head or little fire balls that flame out against the metal of a knight's armour. Cannons existed alongside knights in medieval times, despite being infinitely more powerful. Why then did cannons not take over the battlefield? There were limitations of cost, limitations of expertise, limitations of reliability - I imagine wizards would be the cannons of fantasy settings.

[@TheWaffle654]

My favorite is anti-magic. I love this idea of a powerful wizard boldly attacking a man, and he just raises his fist and sucks all the magic out of the area, and suddenly this powerful mage is stuck in a straight up fist fight.

[@user-lx5iv5cw1w]

And it's just some guy who makes barrels in the medieval equivalent of neighborhood watch guarding a gate with a charm his grandma gave him to ward off magic, which happens to be real, so now you get to have a fistfight between two nerds with sticks.

[@Colin-xv3bc]

i really like how Eragon presented it, a wizard is really overpowered, so every army needed a wizard to defend them from the other wizard by battling them. the army wouldn't attack the wizards for fear theirs would lose concentration, therefore breaking their defense.

[@davejones9469]

I like the idea of willpower being a major source of magical power, so if a warrior with a strong enough will or faith (paladin-like) can resist certain kinds of magic. I also like the rarity option that Tolkien uses. There are only 5 wizards in the whole world and nobody even knows where the two blue ones are...probably off sulking somewhere eh? Hahaha...

[@lonebattledroid4474]

*The Fire Wizard prepares to fry your @$$, you are filled with Determination.*

[@davejones9469]

@@lonebattledroid4474 Yes, but the last time I faced a fire wizard, I had smoked a bunch of dog treats and smacked my head on the moon...

[@GSSAGE7]

Final Fantasy Tactics did something like that, but balanced it by making it a thing they can't turn it off. High levels of Faith means magic both increases how your magic works, and increases how magic works on you. On the other hand, if you have no Faith, you can't use magic at all, but you're also completely immune to magic... even healing magic.

[@marxist-leninist-protagonist]

@@GSSAGE7 Atheist class

[@Liquefaction]

As an aside I heard the two blue wizards went to the east and were successful in whatever their missions were. Just what I heard but it may not be true or even based on anything

[@1FatLittleMonkey]

When discussing magic being rare, you didn't expand on the idea that magic can be hard. Firstly, it's implied in many settings that learning magic is more like some combination of physics, chemistry and mathematics. In theory, anyone could learn it, but how many people realistically can learn it to the point where it's effective beyond "heal light wounds"? While being a skilled warrior is hard, takes training and time; give any rube a spear and shield and he'll be so utterly, vastly more powerful than an unarmed opponent. It's a sudden leap in power. Armour adds another instant leap. If, by contrast, magic requires years of practice just to cast a "detect evil" spell, how many really good magic users would a world have? Secondly, it's often stated outright that magic requires control and balance to avoid harm to the magic user. Even when you have great skill and knowledge and power, it still requires you to hold that balance while you cast, or else you'll harm yourself. Bigger the spell, greater the self-harm. Even training is hard. So wizards tend to get rarer as they age, simply because one day, they lose just enough control over a spell to die. And thus powerful wizards are reluctant to take such a risk for minor causes. Moreso, once you learn magic, there may be a minimum level of control required _all the time_ . You are tapping into forces that from then on, are always pushing in on you. The urge to just leave distractions behind and go live in a remote mountain cave somewhere will be constant. tl;dr - Lashing out with a pointy stick when threatened comes naturally. Ducking behind a solid thing when threatened with a pointy stick comes naturally. But solving a maths equation in the middle of battle does not. Especially when every equation you've ever learnt is simultaneously trying to solve you.

[@louisxii3482]

D&D has a word for this risk of going out of control : Magical Misfire spells can fizzle out just like they can blow in your face

[@DeathnoteBB]

1. Just because lashing out with a pointy stick comes naturally doesn’t mean _you’re gonna be any good at it_ 2. The same can be said for magic users. Letting off an instinctive force of magic if you’re attacked.

[@Row.]

@@DeathnoteBB To answer your points: 1) having a pointy stick will make you more lethal in almost any situation, as it extends your reach and the force concentration. With the most basic training you will be more effective than you could be with your bare hands. Any weapon is better than no weapon. 2) an instinctive, uncontrolled burst of magical energy could be a danger for your opponent, but it could also get you instead. When you react out of fear or instinct, you loose a lot of control. Think of when your phone falls, you try to catch it and just slam it into the wall instead. Your reflexes triggered a movement, but the timing, positioning and force behind it were completely fucked. With a phisical type of reaction, this means you'll slam a few phones into walls, miss a few things being tossed at you and maybe lightly fuck up a muscle/throw an elbow against the wall and get some minor injury. Given all of these imperfections in something like moving an arm, think of the mess that could happen if the reaction wasn't triggering a movement, but rather a very complex and finely balanced chain reaction. Where you didn't close your hands in time to grab the phone, now you're detonating the fireball inches away from you fingertips, where you moved too fast, now you're using too much power, turning a gust off wind in a shockwave that hits you and everything around you, where you missed an object by inches now you're arching a thunderbolt in the wrong direction, having it hit you instead, the strained muscle is now an excessive use of energy that leaves you so tired you pass out, or even get an heart attack and die. If you miss a spear thrust you might leave your guard open for a second or two, if you missfire a spell you could injure or kill yourself and everyone surrounding you. In mathematical terms, it's easy easier to draw a line connecting two dots, rather than creating a second degree equation so that it gives a specific result. (say you want to write an equation (ax^2+bx+c=0) that has x=4 as it's only result, you'll have to build it so that Delta(b^2-4ac)=0 and (-b/2a)=4) With minimum training, the first will be easy, maybe messy, but still doable, whereas the second will be extremely hard and just writing an equation without thinking will not usually give you the desired result (though there is always a chance, but you can't completely rely on luck) With further training, you might be able to instantly form the equation in your mind, and it will be correct 99% of the times, but you'll still mess up every once in a while. Meanwhile, you've committed the line to muscle memory and can draw hundreds of them without having to think about it.

[@Row.]

@@DeathnoteBB Tl,Dr: 2) Releasing a random burst of magical energy by instinct has a huge chance of it going wrong and backfiring horribly, which can easily translate in you committing flambé on yourself and your party members, among other unpredictable things.

[@DeathnoteBB]

@@Row. About the TLDR reply there… again, _only if you decide so_ Also, lashing out with a sword can also hit your friends as well, but that’s not being mentioned

[@artcatdraws4203]

Some things I plan to do for magic in my book series is: magic takes time to cast. Yes technically you can cast spells actually quite fast but it still takes a matter of seconds at best to cast a spell which is precious time in a fight. This means enemy’s can get an opening, allies will have to protect their casters, and casters will have to plan out and pre cast spells before fights. Iron is resistant to magic. It doesn’t absorb magic, (there’s a gemstone called Magebane for that which eats magic and gives spells casters, and only spellcasters, vertigo by just being around it too long let alone touching it). But iron is able to easily block magical energy and lessen its effectiveness. Iron weapons can weaken spellcasters temporarily, and armour can give major protection to warriors whilst being unfavourable to casters. Magic costs an amount of physical energy and focus. Which means that using spells will both exhaust casters and strain their minds. Potions can be crafted that can give resistance to magic and even act as poisons that affect a persons ability to use magic. And lastly. Magic is sparse. It’s basically everywhere as far as raw magical phenomena’s and creatures. But actual knowledge of spells and runes are rare and hard to come by as spellcasters will horde their knowledge to keep an edge over other casters and to prevent their enemies from getting an edge on them.

[@caveman2787]

Isn't there a bunch of iron in peoples blood? Do wizards just not have iron in there blood or would it make them physically weaker

[@maxpower9546]

This actually comes up a lot in fiction. One of the takes I liked the most was in Mushoku Tensei, a novel (now anime) about a guy who reincarnates in a fantasy world. In that world everyone has magic but magic can be divided in a few different types. The "easiest" magic to learn is actually *swordsman* magic, which only makes you stronger, faster and tougher while maybe allowing some bullshit anime attacks. On the other hand the "fireball" kind of mage need to learn long chants that then allow them to use dtuff like fireball and the likes. This means that they can unleash A LOT of power as long as they have the time, the distance and the knowledge. Sadly this also means that a swordsman who is running as fast as a speeding car and who can parry fireballs will probably split them in half before they manage to get one word out. It is fue to this that large scale warfare basically ends up with melee types keeping the other melee types away while mages keep on firing magical attacks. Of course when you have someone who can do both things just as well (though this is super rare, like having a genius physicist who is also an Olympics level athlete) things start getting harder to predict.

[@cioplasmmajic8327]

You came at it from the perspective of the warriors figting, but what about balancing wizards? There are many ways to introduce more weaknesses than just the glass cannon. Their magic could have a reagent cost, or only very limited number of spells. The classic is probably the idea of casting time. Standing still for even six seconds in a real battle is extremely dangerous, not to meantion longer casts. You could also introduce a requirement of concentration, where a distraction as small as a thrown pebble can interupt the cast. Edit: if you really want to make wizards more careful, you can also introduce the idea of a "miscast" if they stumble on an incantation, or lose concentration, or roll a nat 1, then the magic runs wild and explodes in his/her face. Give magic a risk/reward balance.

[@TheAnalyticalEngine]

Wizards could be the equivalent of artillery - powerful yes, but it takes a while to "reload"

[@nicolaslg1421]

These are brilliant ideas!

[@Mark_Agamotto1313_Smith]

@@TheAnalyticalEngine Add in the concept of memorization, and you give limits to the range of "Shells" available (using you artillery analogy). Mage has hundreds of spells in their book, but must choose just a few to memorize for that day and thus must guess as to what is needed for that day.

[@crozraven]

I honestly do not like the idea of stationary casting like it's some kind of unwritten rule of mandatory. It's very gamey-ish imo, like being trapped in turn based situation. Why is it supposed to be stationary?? IRL based rules don't dictate/prohibited of a person who chant while moving around or engage in direct combat. What if the mage have strong concentration to do such things? What if someone can do a chantless magic even? or use voice barrier with written runes/scrolls? or use a catalyst tools to conjure magic much more dynamics? or even body movements like hand signs, limb waving, etc? Surely there are numbers of ways to do a non stationary chanting.

[@danilooliveira6580]

@@crozraven what if the magic itself has a connection from the ground, and moving would break that connection ? for example what if casting the magic involves the drawing of magic and immovable runes and circles in the ground and the caster needs to stay in the center ? there are many ways to make casters need to be stationary that makes sense. and that could have the added bonus that you could say that movable casters are not as powerful, but are more flexible.

[@PlehAP]

Shad asking for ways to level the playing field between martials and casters: I am reminded of what Atton Rand said about fighting Jedi in Kotor 2. "People say killing Jedi is hard. It’s not, you just have to be smart about it. No blasters, no getting close to them, no attacking them directly when you can gun down their allies instead. There’s ways of gassing them, drugging them, making them lose control, torturing them. I was really good at it." It points to another cliche for dealing with magic users: psychological warfare. Sometimes the best way to deal with an opponent who has overwhelming force is to sabotage their weapon and make them blow themselves up.

[@carltwigg6519]

My personal favorite is the Mandalorian approach: gun.

[@lpmatthews7387]

@@carltwigg6519 same, shotgun/high caliber rifle just too good.

[@zeehero7280]

Or you could make spells capable of bypassing a trained knight's shield and skills difficult to learn and take time to cast. making a knight who gets in close a serious threat. Just becuase a setting has magic doesn't mean its the poorly written crap magic. Magic has to have rules and limits like anything else for it to be any good in a narrative.

[@BlueSkiesAreGrey]

I was gonna bring this point up exactly.

[@oniemployee3437]

It is a great tactic. Overwhelm/nullify the senses of someone who *requires* concentration and focus to be useful.

[@rafaelfarias4359]

"A sword is useless against sorcery." "Magic must be fought with magic." - Conan the Destroyer

[@thaynealexander]

And yet Conan a non wizard, beat and killed a powerful wizard with a sword.

[@rafaelfarias4359]

@@thaynealexander Well, he had his lot, and pretty much had to improvise in the room of mirrors.

[@thaynealexander]

@@rafaelfarias4359 Despite all that, he still beat a wizard. And killed him with a sword.

[@hermitcard4494]

@@thaynealexander Magic sword or regular sword?

[@thaynealexander]

@@hermitcard4494 You guys are just looking to argue aren't you? What does it matter? I'll say this a third time, A warrior (Conan) beat and killed a powerful wizard with a sword. Countering what Conan's quote said. End of story. You guys can sit there and throw in all these little, worthless quips to prove me wrong all day. You'll fail and waste your time.

[@willowterra402]

one of my favorite ideas for making armor still useful in a magical world is the idea of "Creating is magic" where the act of creating something, such as a house, or armor or a sword is inherently magical, making anything that has been modified by human hands is able to reduce the effect of magic.

[@Lst-kb3sr]

I think a great way to balance magic is making it EXTREMELY dangerous. Like in games like noita or magicka where if you mess something up a little bit-it WILL kill you. You want a fire ball? It can explode in your nands or just go back to you after destroying your enemy. You want a magical protection? Look out to not cast it on your enemy lol. You want to heal yourself? Try not make your healing spell kill you.

[@johnbones3455]

There’s also the Warhammer method. Magic is great, except you might be corrupted by evil eldritch horrors beyond imagination.

[@tyler1673]

That's great in books. The magic thief for example. In RPGs it's harder.

[@goldfishmind]

I like this, or a variant of this, a lot too. You can easily make it like a comparison to a gun (a Fighter/Warrior) vs an airstrike. Both will kill someone real dead if they're in the way, but we don't just carpet bomb everyone because we tend to like to have bits left after we finish the war, and also because civilian casualties are a thing. Oh, and let's also not forget that dropping an airstrike too close to your own base can be a bad idea. Similarly, if magic is powerful but generally large area effects with little control/refinement, it can absolutely demolish a battlefield, but with little regard for who happens to be in the blast. It can errect massive wind walls to protect from arrows, but those arrows and wind has to go SOMEWHERE, etc. With wisdom, it's still very useful and powerful, but used foolishly and you just create more problems than you solve.

[@madness_lab]

Like lightning bending from avatar

[@Pijetlo91]

One of the funniest ways I've seen this interpret this is the following: make mages trust their magic as programmers trust programming code. For example: "There is no way I'm using teleportation unless I have no options what so ever. The last 3 guys who tried were ripped to shreds. I much prefer travelling by ship."

[@davalious5107]

I've always been partial to the idea that magic, especially strong magic, is really draining or that mages only have access to so much magical energy at a time. So battles with them boil down to just surviving till they run out of power or attacking them while they're low (like right after they use a big spell)

[@Wastelandman7000]

In the old game Arcanum you could pass out if you used too much magic too quickly. Sometimes you didn't wake up LOL

[@largo778]

that also brings up creative use of low level spells. with the "draining" magic systems the more powerful the spell the more it drains, after all, controlling the weather requires more power then lighting a candle. This balances things a bit because your average high powered wizard isn't going to use battlefield level magics in a tavern brawl. combined with "glass cannon" or "kryptonite" weaknesses you can end up with worlds where low level wizards are in bigger demand than high powered ones

[@largo778]

@@SnakeWasRightDark Sun campaign setting, turns out wizards were using the life force of the planet to power magic

[@largo778]

@@SnakeWasRight according to Dark Sun's lore, it is finite.

[@thundermarkperun1083]

I tend to like this system as well, where the more powerful the spell, the higher the level of fatigue the magic user has to save against. And we have examples in stories from Moses to Yoda where even a powerful "magic user" had to rest after using powerful Supernatural effects

[@Ian_Comics]

A neat idea I read once in regards to iron blocking magic was the reason dwarves and elves are distrustful, or even fearful of humans, is that humans are resistant to magic, maybe even to the point where they can't use it. The reason is because of the iron in their blood, where dwarf/elf biology has their blood oxidize with a different metal.

[@austinboucher5286]

I remember reading the Slayers light novels, and the way they dealt with this problem was having it take awhile to actually say a spell. In the books, that’s part of why the swordsman character Gourry acts as Lina’s (the sorceress’s) guardian/backup. He can protect her from enemies while she takes time to formulate a spell. They act as mutual support, and it helps that gourry actually has a sword with magical properties.

[@xxohanzeexx]

I really love the magic system in "Ascendance of a book worm". Its set in a proper medieval setting with books being a thing for rich people and people don't know how sicknesses really work. In this world only nobility have the ability to use magic, not because of their bloodlines but because they are the only ones rich enough to survive having magic. Humans born with mana are stricken with fevers and frailty very early and if not treated by special magic items their mana will kill them before they're even 10 years old.

[@StarshadowMelody]

huh, wonder how that'd go when you get to more modern eras and the concept of free healthcare starts being embraced like it should be, if that's the only real gate.

[@Auriel_Argentis]

@@StarshadowMelody They probably don't ever go to more modern eras. Rulling class dont have health problems thanks to magic, so they cannot care less about healthcare for others. Plus, human lives are worthless in their world. Many poor aristocrats are willing to let their own older children die same way as commoners, if they have a more gifted with mana, but younger offspring. It's a world where the price of your life basically equals your mana pool.

[@shadowpriest2574]

I mean, yeah it sounds good until you understand that its circular reasoning, since its not a natural sickness and its still solved with magic, which means that its understandable that they can manage it now, but it does not excuse the first magic user . In short, the only way to cure magic disease is with magic but how did the first magic user survive it??

[@jasonfurumetarualkemisto5917]

@@shadowpriest2574 They could have been pretty tough, I knew an 8 year old who fell from the 2nd story of a building. He was fine, but he broke his leg. In modern times kids can get near life threatening diseases and survive too, if they're cared for well. The reason all children probably die here is that since it's a medieval setting people probably don't know that washing your hands after using the chamberpot is a good thing. But then again, in real life some kids lived through plague.

[@shadowpriest2574]

@@jasonfurumetarualkemisto5917 Well yeah , but the disease itself is said to only be cure-able by magic . My point was not that its impossible to survive it , but that its not "being rich " that allows nobles to survive the magic disease but rather being rich in a world with magic . Basicly the first guy presented it as if it would make sense that nobles would survive using their money , and it would make sense if the cure was a rare substance that needed to be worked on by profesionals and the resulting object would naturally cure the disease somehow, but in the show its a magic item made by ppl with magic that cures it meaning that for the first child with magic the parents would not be able to buy the object because it would not have existed. I am not saying that its a bad idea, just that its not correct to say that they survived because they were rich .

[@giovannichardonne3545]

My favorite way is that high-level warriors are much more "powerful" than average humans. They are faster, tougher, more agile and stronger. Basically I give them the Captain America treatment, but without the serum, just with training.

[@MemoryMori]

I like the solutions: 1) Magic user use one type of magic (fire/wind/ etc.) so you can have amulets to negate/ disrupt that kind of magic. 2) magic dont kill you instanly but after...lets say 10sec of continuous fire. So if you are sturdy enought, you can rush the Wizard and kill then, before they kill you. But yeah, when you are a powerful DEMON LORD or something, even 10 000 highly trained knights are just flyies :D

[@carso1500]

Basically the anime protagonist treatment, yeah maybe a wizard can use a meteor rain spell to nuke an area from orbit but what is he gonna do if suddenly one of the warriors jumps into the air and starts cutting said meteors in half

[@Vit-Pokorny]

I prefer the solution "everyone can do magic"

[@mr.gameandtime8432]

@@MemoryMori I prefer the Anime answer to those solutions like Magic is already a thing. Super-humans shouldn't be surprising in a world that has Dragons or Elves. I find an idea of a Super-human shocking the fuck out of some elves when they rip out a giant tree to smash some troll into the dirt with it as a very funny idea.

[@josephercanbrack8393]

One way that I've always liked magic is in the Call of Cthulhu vein: That 99% of spells are rituals that takes a fair bit of time to cast, ingredients, and specific incantations. This makes them more suited to either passively help an army through logistics, food distribution, scry enemy troop movements....or make MOAB level fireball that will take at least 3 hours to cast.

[@EFDNora]

Yeah its Just the best way i likes Magic especially in an RPG, especially strong spells like dominate cannot be utterly abused too, as it Works on singles target

[@reginlief1]

Really it just depends on the accessibility of magic. If it’s hard to use, or kept secret from lesser classes of the world, then warriors exist as the much more common solution to martial threats.

[@chabri2000]

Knight: What is my purpose? Mage: You tank arrows and explotions. Knight: Oh my god.

[@ArinJager1]

knight: * wilhelm scream *

[@oten9616]

Well, it's not a direct "sword beats magic", but you can make knights relevant in the world by adding a third party (maybe in the environment or a type of fauna who's very effective/resistant to magic, or maybe that nourished itselves from it and is attracted by it), and so the knights would be needed here as bodyguards. You would get some kind of balance between the 3 party where mage beats knight knight beats fauna/nature fauna/nature beats mage

[@michaelpettersson4919]

The horror of playing classical Diablo with a sorcerer just to run into a triple immune mob meaning nigher fire, cold or lightening can harm it. Either whack the thing down with your staff, or shoot it with a bow inflicting pitiful damage. Raising a golem could help since it did indeed inflict physical damage but the darn thing cannot be controlled and it can be killed...

[@dhwwiiexpert]

Ysalamiri from Star Wars: Legends project a field that nullified Force powers, and when in groups the field would increase by varying distances up to kilometers.

[@robertenyart9982]

In most fantasy games, the wizard or sorcerer suffers from spell slots or a mana pool. There are only so many spells that can be cast. Then comes the saving throw. The ability to resist magic spells or completely dodge area of effect spells. Survivability also depends on who goes first. Wizards have a tough time casting when turned into pincushions or sheaths.

[@x-mighty7602]

I am currently writing a story that takes place in the 2010's decade, and I made it so that gunpowder cancels magic, so the mages need to use oldschool weapons while the warriors use guns.

[@dekaritheprofessor2631]

Dope❤❤😊

[@user-ng4xe5rf8n]

My answer for wizard-killing warriors: Crusaders. If magic system is related to something heretic, then at least some deities would give 'normal' people strength to counter it.

[@jonathanwells223]

“Better if steel and bowstring prevail without further aid from the arts, for the constant use of mighty spells sometimes sets forces in motion that might rock the universe.” - The Hour of the Dragon

[@Wastelandman7000]

Yes, I think Howard got it right. Wizards could do all sorts of horrible things, but, they had limitations. And unintended consequences.

[@Edgelord-rn9he]

0:38 UNLIMITED POWEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@codyallison8093]

Dang it Shad. You're giving me more d&d ideas. I'm gonna end up a DM again because of you.

[@razanon4373]

One of my favorite ways of defeating magic users comes up in Tsukihime and DxD. Basically both settings have a character that figures out how to disrupt spells by stabbing them. How dangerous that is amuses me. Essentially gambling you can hit the spell before it hits you.

[@wolframsteindl2712]

It would be interesting to see how castles would realistically end up looking in a world where magic and monsters are a thing. I can imagine they'd look quite a bit different, especially if flying monsters that you can ride on are a thing. I'm guessing most of them would be bunkers, preferrably underground.

[@andyknightwarden9746]

Depends on if you can ward the castle well.

[@ancapftw9113]

Mine have magical bubble shields and Anti-aircraft turrets.

[@erikrungemadsen2081]

My guess is that they would look more like bunkers with flak batteries on top, or firing positions like machine gun nests og gun emplacements for wizards, and then then it would be loaded with traps internally to trap the occasional dragon to get inside.

[@kotarouinugami1745]

We adventurers call these bunkers "dungeons". While they're decent protection against armies and giant monsters, they are vulnerable to crack special forces teams that adventurers are.

[@sitter2207]

Nuke

[@Demonskunk]

There are a couple of big, simple possibilities. 1: Ritual. Magic takes time and focus to cast. A warrior just needs to swing his sword, a wizard needs to wave his arms in the right way, say the magic words, and sometimes present a special reagent. That gives a warrior enough time to easily close the gap and cut them down. Simple spells like throwing a weak fireball, or a bolt of force might be instantaneous, but the more powerful the spell, the more time, effort, and focus it should take to cast. 2: Mana Pool. Magic takes energy to cast. Wizards might only be able to cast a certain number of spells before resting, or casting spells might burn calories so they need to be conservative about when and where they cast their spells. If a warrior can bait a wizard into wasting magic, they then only have to contend with a tired, hungry nerd. 3: Martial Techniques. In my fantasy setting (which still needs a proper name) warriors, rogues, et all don’t cast spells per se, but they manipulate magical energy through their own disciplines. Warriors strengthen their bodies and suffuse their weapons with magical energy. Rogues learn to blend into the shadows, leap great heights and cling to walls. In a setting with magic that is freely available to all people, and doesn’t require lifetimes of study, it only makes sense that different ‘classes’ would make use of that magic in different ways. Very much like how JRPGs tend to do it.

[@peezieforestem5078]

Nice list, I'd like to add: 4) Enchanted tools (swords that can slash from a distance, seeking javelins, etc.) 5) Medieval mechas, a.k.a golems, which mimic the movement of a knight inside them and protect them 6) The opposite of glass cannon: magic cannot be used destructively 7) Poisons 8) Insignificant magic effects, "spark" instead of "fireball" / "lightning", that must be used creatively (such as blinding) and do not dominate their opponents 9) Mind control magic only, thus you still need warriors

[@brambl3014]

That's exactly what Mushoku tensei did

[@julietfischer5056]

#2 is similar to Larry Niven's fantasies, set on a prehistoric Earth whose mana was used up by all the mages and wizards. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magic_Goes_Away

[@yolowop18]

Does this magic in Shad’s magical universe use geokinesis superpowers or magic? If so, that will be a FLAW in his story, because Iron is the third most common element making up an earth-like planet. So, moving rock, dirt, or minerals will be a MAJOR FLAW in Shad’s assessment about magic being repelled by iron. That is, if any characters in his Universe, uses an earth-like element magic or superpower. Sorry Shad, but you’ll have to go back to the drawing board.

[@yolowop18]

Iron filings are small shavings of a ferromagnetic material, but studies doesn’t show that iron fillings in a horseshoe is more refined than iron itself. So, one will have to say that iron shavings in a horseshoe is exactly just that - Regular iron minerals. Unless, you have a study to bring forth. Otherwise, Shad needs to go back to the drawing board.

[@rallaa]

14:00 This is something I've seen in various Japanese manga stories. Magic systems where most people have some level of magical capacity, but not everyone is able to apply it. The best warriors develop an instinct to apply magic to themselves and enhance their speed/strength, but doing so can be stressful on their bodies if they aren't physically fit enough.

[@neokolder472]

I implemented most of this in my setting) I worked on balancing my power system to the point that only advantage, that magic has, is its versatility. With same amount of training the raw power of pure magician and pure martial artist are equal)

[@dangersquirrel4868]

I really like the concept of magic having a verbal component. I think it's a nice balance. On one hand, magic users can do all this crazy stuff, but a simple gag completely disables them. Warriors can then develop items that impair speech, like a pepper bomb. Also, if the magic requires a long incantation, warriors become more useful simply because magic is slow.

[@joshuaortega2708]

A wizard who forgets the magic words when they are in a stressful position in and out of combat

[@franohmsford7548]

Some spells are verbal only, some are gesture only, some require material components and super long casting times. A High level Wizard worth his salt will research spells that he can use with his hands tied or even his tongue cut out so he can survive. A Super High Level Wizard may have contingency spells ready for his sudden death {like instant Teleport to a friendly high level Priest :)}.

[@Dan_Kanerva]

@@franohmsford7548 so basically Naruto hand jutsu and talk jutsu

[@ThreeGoddesses]

Dnd/pathfinder has a really good magic system because of that exactly. Bind and gag a mage and suddenly they cannot cast most spells, UNLESS they have metamagic feats that severely reduce the potency of their magic. For example, a stilled silent spell (something only an exceptionally talented mage could accomplish) effectively reduces the maximum spell level you can cast by 2. So If you had access to level 5 spells, suddenly you only have access to level 3 spells. And this is only dangerous to from bards and sorcerors, because they are the only casters that dont need material components, and because wizards, driud, clerics ect have to prepare spells before hand, and use compenents which they cant if bound and don't have a relevant spell prepared before hand.

[@Zoten001]

I read a story that basically had everyone who participated in combat being some kind of mage. Two classifications. 1. The Emitter. Your standard Mage you see in pretty much every fantasy setting. Spells get cast outward, take time to cast depending on training...etc. 2. The Augmenter. Can use magic to effect change to themselves. Basically a self-buffing. Can increase own stats to stand against an Emitter.

[@iverstim2218]

Beginning after the End?

[@eliasraine8726]

Beginning After the End most likely, amazing series

[@7Kibz]

Mushouko tensei also does something similar with normal magic and aura that high level warriors can use to make them physically stronger. In the series warriors are actually the strongest combatants at the top

[@Djorgal]

D&D is also similar in that aspect. Everyone is superhuman. A high level warrior can achieve feats that are impossible for a puny earthling human even without counting his enchanted gear.

[@Stthow]

@@Djorgal Not...really?While a high level warrior do achieve feats that are impossible for a regular human, a high level spell caster can literally alter reality. The power disparity is too big. Pathfinder deals with this problem way better than D&D. D&D needs to nerf casters or buff martial fighters otherwise It doesn't make sense to even hold a sword in that setting since magic is everywhere.

[@thecarpeteer4107]

In my D&D setting, magic is enabled by giving silver an electromagnetic charge. On planets with silver in their core, magic can be done by anyone, but in space and on non-magical planets, you can enable magic in an area by zapping silver with electricity. However, if you corrode silver by exposing it to sulphur, you get silver sulfide, nullifying the effects. And if you zap silver sulfide with electricity, you create an anti-magic zone where magic can't exist. Altogether, this means that you can create AMZ grenades with nothing but a small battery and a silver sulfide ingot. Any silver touched by this field will corrode into silver sulfide, meaning the effect overrides the magic field trick.

[@cracdealer9007]

The idea of warriors having their own magic to counter mages kinda reminds me of the templars from dragon age. The spells that they use are literally geared towards lowering the effect of, or disabling a mage’s magic. Would love to see you guys play one of the dragon age games on game knight btw.

[@sifuminus720]

I like Tolkiens implementation of magic in Middle Earth, it behaved more passively rather than an overwhelming active force. The minor exceptions being the few wizards like Gandalf who wielded fire and light occasionally. Having wizards and other powerful (magically enhanced) beings behaved more like beacons of hope for those around, rather than 1v10000 battle xXxFazeClanxXx noscope kings.

[@alekssavic1154]

The subtle version of magic has grown on me a lot over the years. While fireballs are cool, they're a lot less interesting than the less flashy magic of folklore or LotR.

[@Tubbiestduck9827]

If you dive into Tolkiens world building you find out those who are powerful in magic like Gandalf are more like divine beings. Just something interesting I recently found out.

[@sifuminus720]

@@Tubbiestduck9827 Yeah, most of the magic in middle-earth is divine in origin. That's why at the end of Lord of the Rings as the wizards, and Elves depart, so does 90% of the magic of the world, as men are left to fill in the void left from ages past.

[@ClockworkGearhead]

So, it's more accurate to call Gandalf a Cleric than a Mage, eh?

[@sifuminus720]

@@ClockworkGearhead I would say Gandalf is neither of those classifications. Cleric implies he is a priest/healer/part of military order, he was neither of those in lore. Nor do we assume he was a mage, implying he was normal being capable of magical feats, who trained in the magical arts. According to what Tolkien ascribed, he is a demigod along with the other wizards that existed, Sauron, and the numerous Balrogs. They had powers already, whether overt or subtle in their contexts. The elves were a divinely created race, so if you were to label anything as a cleric or mage peoples, it would be the elves, but that's a vast stretch, as most of their power was almost like an amplification of natural effects, like most "magic"/trickery was.

[@frankenstein6677]

There's a manga series called Magi that does this pretty well imo. Magic is generally rare, and magical items even rarer, but everyone has "magoi" (basically mana). And only people NOT gifted in magic can train to achieve magoi manipulation (chi-like martial arts, where you can enhance weapons as well as your body, and even push your mana inside others in order to disrupt their own flow of energy). Djinn, which are housed within weapons and can use some pretty extreme magic, can also only manifest their magic through the bodies of non-magicians.

[@UnexpectedWonder]

Ayy!!! That Magi: the Labyrinth of Magic Beyond Greatness though! 😁😁😁🙏🙏👌👊👏👏

[@davidevans7477]

So mages suck...

[@Iuri100]

Wait if you are gifited with magic... you cant use magic? How? Why??

[@Gryzon96]

@@Iuri100 For example: casting a true spell is equivalent to solving differential equation entirely in your head. It is possible, but it isn't common to be able to posses such skill. Considering that it would take years of training to even try if your capable, many would resort to train only the prodigies with high chance of succeeding. Depending on a setting that could turn magic anywhere form rare to only being a handful of magic users on whole world.

[@nyalan8385]

@@davidevans7477 no, the magi (proper mages) can absolutely mop the floor with anyone. But becoming one requires *immense* natural talent and they are incredibly rare. The average person, and even above average person has no hope of achieving this in the slightest, and therefore it is much more efficient to train them with regular arms and armor, and to equip the more talented soldiers with magical items to capitalize on their skill

[@lisaboyer6946]

SUPER high quality, I totally see why you said so in the beginning. Loved it.

[@shelbybayer200]

A lot of RPGs Has Magic in an Energy bar that drains as you use magic attacks I always imagine the Magic user being like Magic User: Wait wait, I need to replenish Magic Energy Knight: ....... Yeah, No And SLICE

[@uchophamxuan6515]

Or oh hell no! u I slow time then stab u with a knife - Dragonborn

[@ChainsawGutsFuck]

You can keep knights (and armour) relevant by making magic "physical" - i.e. spells still have to penetrate chainmail and steel plating, so heavy armour would protect you from a lot of conventional magical attacks. i.e. Fireballs would have to actually heat up the armour enough to hurt the person wearing it, rather than instantly incinerating forged metal. Blizzards of sharp icicles would be able to batter armour much like arrows, probably more potent for their impact than penetrative power. RPG balance tends not to favour realism, because realism is "boring" and not very balanced since there tends to be an apex technology or method for doing something that everyone copies.

[@ChainsawGutsFuck]

@Tuber Septis Exactly. And magic tends to ignore armour, when in reality most of it would still be subjected to the laws of physics (despite being fundamentally broken by magic) when it comes to the "standard" elemental style attacks. Plate armour would be a poor choice if wizards started using electric / lightning magic, because the wearer would basically become a grounding pylon. For that reason, they'd wear leather... until the ice spells came out which can pierce leather, or fire spells which can inflict grievous burns to both armour and wielder... I personally don't like when wizards are forced to use robes because then it's "easier" to cast spells; anyone that's ever worn a robe would know they're an annoyance and get in the way most of the time. Let them wear any armour they like, just punish them if they were to wear heavy plate and cast the aforementioned lightning spells, damaging themselves in the process.

[@raixuh]

@@ChainsawGutsFuck ground pylon or faraday cage, the second option would render the lighting spell useless, specially IF the inner clothing was applied, wich was, for confort 🤔 However, an unarmored or partially plated armored warrior would be likelly to eletrecution IF usign textile armor with at least half the face exposed Better yet, make the armor usefull to reduce the harm from magic, like moder armor does to bullets 😉

[@ericmurotake5180]

@@ChainsawGutsFuck Generally, the constraint is that mages need to wear cloth, due to armor being unfamiliar and impeding movements needed (as an analogue, try doing a task that requires precise dexterity wearing a pair of thick leather gloves). Now, once said mage gets comfortable in the armor, they might be able to at a minor penalty (because again, no matter how used to it you are, there's still a bit of dexterity lost with armor on)

[@ChainsawGutsFuck]

@@ericmurotake5180 I don't think that's the case, though. You lose more dexterity wearing loose fitting robes as you trip over it trying to run up stairs; remember Christopher Lee having trouble behind the scenes in LOTR? Robes look fancy and are very useful to balance magic users in a game setting to force them out of heavy armour, but I'm sure a proper set of custom armour will be better than most robes for mobility, whether it be leather, chain, or plate. Or combine the two; there's little reason not to wear a chainmail vest under the robe to protect against attackers. I get that magic users tend to have shield spells but there must be times where they can't simply ignore physical damage otherwise pretty much everyone would learn at least the basics of shielding spells. As for a performing a complicated task with heavy gloves on, I understand that... but how complex are spells to cast anyway? Most of the time it's a finger gesture with spoke words, in which case what's stopping the magic user from simply not wearing gloves / gauntlets but keeping the rest of the armour on?

[@ericmurotake5180]

@@ChainsawGutsFuck The robes aren't a necessity, but a stylistic thing. Mages in most settings are usually considered "upper-crust" (educated, formally trained, well off enough to afford supplies for whatever they're working on, etc), and enjoy the superstitious fear and respect of the common folk. So they tend to be more dressing for style and effect, rather than practicality (whereas traveling mages are more likely to go for simpler, practical clothing like a tunic, trousers, and a cloak for the elements). It's just that in visual shorthand, "flowing, voluminous robes that billow dramatically in the aura of power of a spell" is synonymous with "mage" (Look at the difference between Gandalf (whose outfits are much more practical and simple, as he tends to travel the world) and Saruman (big, flashy, theatrical robes as he rarely leaves his tower and uses servants and proxies for just about everything). As to armor, it's a matter of concentration (if you're not used to armor, you're going to feel it, which can throw off the focus to use a spell). Most settings have a certain threshold of what constitutes enough to throw the concentration of a mage off (usually anything heavier than chainmail) without specifically training to acclimate to the difference in weight and mobility.

[@crazymanmot]

I normally like settings that balances magic users out by giving their magic a draw back. Word of Darkness Vampires, Mages, and Werewolves come easily to mind. Making the magic cost something large like your humanity and having "mana" limited on top of putting the magic in a magic-hostile setting makes magic allot more balanced.

[@als3022]

On that note they are also rare in relation to the normal mortals. Sure a powerful vampire can defeat a normal no hunter mortal easy. On the other hand a big group of mortals can destroy even the strongest vampire. The image is of a werewolf causing a stampede of mortals and having to explain I'm the afterlife how they were run over by panicked humans

[@thac0twenty377]

yep. The entropy points were a cool mechanic

[@germanss4311]

@@als3022 Man, that would be embarrasing, for the werewolf.

[@SuddenlyUpsidedown]

Mushoko Tensei does a good job of the 'Warriors have their own magic' type. Everyone has access to mana, but while wizards have enough to cast spells, warriors only have enough to perform a type of self augmentation called a Toki/Battle Aura.

[@stgibbs86]

LOVE the victory reactions! Teabagging, flipping the bird, hilarious!

[@LydaLynn]

I love the 'magic is energy' aspect where using it tires the mage, giving them limited ability, less likely to use and more likely to leave them in a weakened state if they aren't careful.

[@Tubbiestduck9827]

There's a book series called 'Dresden Files' that does this very well.

[@ProphetTruth95]

I am very surprised you didn’t mention the Templars of Dragon Age. How they use the Mages own magical source (Lyrium) to nullify their ability. In the early games I really enjoyed how the Templars were portrayed as warriors devolved to combat magic.

[@HerrDoctorFaust]

Same thought here! Aside from being lyrium junkies and weak in the head after, like, 30 years of service, templars are amazing

[@cp1cupcake]

Its basically type 4 in Shad's video.

[@GnarledStaff]

I almost asked if you were having fun Shad, but stopped myself because I know the answer to that. Glad you are enjoying what you do. Good video.

[@x-mighty7602]

High Guardian Spice Writer be like: Just make the mages dumb.

[@caledvwych1366]

Inheritance Cycle style magic: Using magic requires physical energy equivalent to as if the person physically did the thing. (still not entirely sure how that translates to stuff like reflecting/bending light, but it does happen in the books) So they can light a person on fire, but the amount of energy they would expend means that they can't light too many people on fire and while it keeps them very strong in 1v1s, in the terms of a battlefield they usually tire out much faster than a normal warrior.

[@catlover2223]

Yes! That magic system is so underrated!

[@Merrsharr]

A system that really encourages clever use of physics to achieve great effects at minimal energy expenditure.

[@munchkin7151]

Counterpoint: It does not take a lot of physical effort to pinch a blood vessel in someone's brain. If magic, as you say: provide the means to do something but require the you to put in the effort (in this case provide the mean to generate fire but you have to put in the physical exertion to create fire), then all the caster need to dominate is to select the option that causes maximum damage while requiring minimal exertion: pinching a vessel in the brain, creating a tiny rip in the cornea, severing a specific tendon, etc

[@Surreal_Traveler]

@@munchkin7151 I'm pretty sure that's the major plot point in the book regarding large-scale warfare. For every Magician that goes down from the enemy military, an entire garrison of soldiers is available to be insta-killed by a Magician (usually the same Magician that killed the aforementioned Magician).

[@Ditidos]

@@munchkin7151 Yeah, which is why magicians are considered extremely dangerous and must remain hidden unless they know they are the most powerfull magician on the field. Wizards in that setting can only affect other wizards if they use more energy or if the other wizard is willing, normal people can also train to gain this ability independent of their magical power but they will always be worse than a wizard and intruding inside someone trained to defend itself gives away your location. This prevents from wizards dominating the battefield completely unless there is only allied sorcerers alive or they risk dying, so the bulk of the battle is still done by regular troops and not so obvius magical effects. Of course, the dragon riders have much more magical potency than anyone else, so akin to force-users they don't have to worry about regular mages, only other dragon riders and perhaps elves dedicated to spellcasting only, since both of those are obvius, they tend to go in 1vs1 battles to see which one win (and if they do and aren't completely tired, they are probably going to win).

[@xenomorphphantom8852]

"Mage starts chanting" An arrow goes into his eye socket... "Knight laughs" Ranger and Knight make a high five and sack the Mage's corpse. There.

[@7Rendar]

Only works with a magic system that requires chanting though.

[@xenomorphphantom8852]

@@7Rendar The variation is; "Mage shows up" An arrow goes into his eye socket... If the Knight (and his Ranger friend) knows that the mage is his enemy the result is the same.

[@wofls2713]

i imagine that the ranger and knight start tea-bagging the mage corpse after they kill them

[@chiepah2]

Absolutely flawless

[@TheSorrowfulAngel]

In many settings, anti-magic has often been associated with holy or religious powers. Templars, basically. This can work out really well. You basically have a somewhat exclusive kind of warrior to fight mages and create anti mage armor.

[@Chris-ok4zo]

Shad's skits with his magic friend is what I imagine MMORPG battles going down and ending. The teabags and middlefingers are just too real.

[@zappodude7591]

Spawncamping fresh installs = skill

[@Chris-ok4zo]

@@zappodude7591 Took me a minute to understand what you said.

[@zappodude7591]

@@Chris-ok4zo I mean, it was a quote from famed intelecutal, acclaimed scholar, and Rust player xX-NoobBasher-Xx Baggins.

[@Chris-ok4zo]

@@zappodude7591 Have no idea who that is but what they said sounds so true. A good quote to have.

[@yolowop18]

Does this magic in Shad’s magical universe use geokinesis superpowers or magic? If so, that will be a FLAW in his story, because Iron is the third most common element making up an earth-like planet. So, moving rock, dirt, or minerals will be a MAJOR FLAW in Shad’s assessment about magic being repelled by iron. That is, if any characters in his Universe, uses an earth-like element magic or superpower. Sorry Shad, but you’ll have to go back to the drawing board.

[@Madmax45247]

Black Clover is also a really interesting concept. A world where literally everyone has magic. The main character is the only one who can't use magic but he trains and is given swords that are antimagic and repel and cut through any form of magic.

[@realdonpanini5028]

To be fair as the story progresses his anti-magic is starting to act the same as other types of magic, aside from it's attribute being that it nullifies magic. He's able to use it to fly and even affect physical objects.

[@yolowop18]

Does this magic in Shad’s magical universe use geokinesis superpowers or magic? If so, that will be a FLAW in his story, because Iron is the third most common element making up an earth-like planet. So, moving rock, dirt, or minerals will be a MAJOR FLAW in Shad’s assessment about magic being repelled by iron. That is, if any characters in his Universe, uses an earth-like element magic or superpower. Sorry Shad, but you’ll have to go back to the drawing board.

[@yolowop18]

Iron filings are small shavings of a ferromagnetic material, but studies doesn’t show that iron fillings in a horseshoe is more refined than iron itself. So, one will have to say that iron shavings in a horseshoe is exactly just that - Regular iron minerals. Unless, you have a study to bring forth. Otherwise, Shad needs to go back to the drawing board.

[@krispalermo8133]

@@yolowop18 Iron at one time was rare in every day use, and they used to hang iron symbols, crosses or horse shoes above doors and windows to keep fairies and spirits out of homes. Now days houses have tens on pounds of nails & screws holding the whole building together instead of wooden pegs. Any wonder why people don't see fairies any more ?

[@ZionStrickland]

@@yolowop18 I mean, just do the classical “magically significant” where a thing isn’t inherently stopping the user, but in a certain form or manner it does. Example being vampires and running water. Water doesn’t hurt vampires, but the bubbling stream is magically significant and impedes it’s path. You can do the same as “cold” iron and fae. There are many ways you can pull off this kind of thing

[@commenturthegreat2915]

One of my favorite examples of a kryptonite-style weakness is the overseer music box from the Dishonored games - A sound that when you hear it nullifies your magical abilities. It's a creative and thematically appropriate twist on the idea, and through effective sound design and visual elements really captures the feeling of your abilities being sucked out of you.

[@ZenCloud180]

So happy to hear you talk about D&D, I started in 3.5 as well :)

[@rpontonjr]

Another way to "balance" warriors vs. magic users: Magic is limited and really expensive, especially brute magic like combat evocation, so magic users rely on quite a lot of bluffing and redirection to avoid actually having to spend magic. A standoff between a warrior and a wizard is largely a test of the wizard's poker face to convince the warrior to just walk away.

[@jlokison]

Real world sword or gunslingers were the same, when an infected cut or puncture can kill even with treatment, convincing an opponent that the fight isn't worth it is very important. The Spanish fencing masters taught a style focused on intimidation in their stance and attacks as a result. The Japanese have a lot of records of duels between Samurai, and some of their films display them accurately, the fight was often won or lost before a blade was drawn by psychological warfare, and once the blades were drawn it wa usually over very quickly.

[@Zergling.]

I have a more realistic view, alot of the balance problems in games and stories is the need to have different classes, be it for better history telling or better gameplay, in my realistic view theres no warrior or wizards classes, everyone can have and use magic, if you want stronger and more powerful magic you will need to learn and train for it but if you just want to use, lets say lvl 0 magic you can, light a fire, boil water, clean yourself, dig a hole, create a dirt shelter, jump a little higher, cure small cuts, this type of magic. What i think will exist is specializations, some people will prefer long range magic, others more close combat magic, others prefer mind magic or magic that interferes with your senses (ilusions/mind control/blinding/memory) maybe you prefer a more sneaky playstyle, or you are good at creating special formations or rituals with magic for defense or attacking, alot of possibilities, i only have seen very few novels, anime or games with this type of aproach probably because i think will not be easy to implement so many options and choices. A very nice webnovel that has this type of thing is Mupreme Magus one of the best novels i have seen.

[@bigbossgreek]

That was the beauty of old school d&d, 2e AD&D and earlier. Spell components were expensive, and using magic was really rare, AND YOU COULD ONLY CAST A FEW SPELLS PER DAY. The new mechanics are a joke.

[@powerist209]

Glad that warhammer fantasy had those. Also sleep require will saves, spells lots are limited and situational on if magic wind is here or not, and magic can have nasty side effects due to being part of the warp.

[@DarksteelHeart]

That's sort of how my primary protagonist works. He doesn't wanna kill people, so he basically tries to do a show of force that takes no lives instead.

[@jamesbaxter5147]

In the Anime “Gate”, they justified this by saying all magic takes a *long* time to prep, making it significantly impractical in battle. After all, what good is fireball if you have to spend 10 seconds preping just one? Someone could shoot an arrow at you well within that period.

[@krankarvolund7771]

Then the mages would be like siege engines, they can do terrible damages, but they need to prepare a lot ^^ Or if they need like 10 seconds, that's close to reload rates of arbalests and better than most ancient rifles, so it can still be a good asset, just a one that needs protection ^^

[@michaelpettersson4919]

There are where mages need to be smart about their spell selection.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

@@krankarvolund7771 That made me think of a soldier assigned to bodyguard the radio operator, the closest thing to a mage on the battlefield since he can call in artillery barrages, airstrikes and even call for reinforcements.

[@KingRyanoles]

@@michaelpettersson4919 This made me think of that windtalkers movie but instead he's a knight guarding a native American spellcaster 😆

[@BreandanOCiarrai]

this was factored into the mechanics of 1st and especially 2nd edition AD&D back in the 80s (which we still play to this day, bunch of grognards we are :D )- spells have casting time that is added to the initiative roll, and it often puts their spell's launch well after melee and ranged attacks. If the mage is hit while casting, they lose the spell (barring other factors that come in at higher levels). This makes the high-Dex (i.e. faster initiative) ranger and rogue archers effing invaluable when fighting against a mage. Does it negate the value of a mage? Nope, a smart player who sees mages as more than fireball dispensers can easily work around this with foresight (following the Harry Dresden rule of wizardry- Be Prepared), but it balances out against a lot of the issues shown in the intro.

[@StarlitSeafoam]

Thanks for the video, Shad; I know I'm a month late, but this was great for getting me thinking about my magic systems, again.

[@Sketchy3032]

Adding to the enchanted items and superhuman point: warriors (and even regular people) may already have innate magical abilities/defenses based on their race like in The Elder Scrolls other than just superhuman capabilities I remember always having a hard time fighting nords as a wizard in early-mid game Skyrim since they always have a strong resistance against frost spells, which are supposed to be a hard counter against warriors since these also slow targets down to a crawl and drain their stamina apart from dealing damage... all just because they're nords...

[@RockThekami]

Star Wars has an interesting dynamic between force uses and regular warriors. People like Boba Fett and even droids like HK47 learn how to exploit weaknesses inherent in all but the best force uses. HK was specifically made to hunt Jedi and Sith.

[@windwalker5765]

A Jedi can kill an ordinary soldier fairly easily. _An_ ordinary soldier. Problem is, there's a hell of a lot of them...

[@hellacoorinna9995]

@@windwalker5765 Bullet to superheated splat. Also shotguns.

[@puddel9079]

"I hope none of them were friends of yours, but really, they had it coming!" HK-47

[@ShadeSlayer1911]

@@hellacoorinna9995 Jango's method was simply to have fast firing yet powerful pistols that make it hard for a single jedi to deflect effectively. You saw how hard it was for Coleman Trebor to deflect those shots. It's a shame that Mace was so much more powerful, so he had little trouble with those same shots.

[@Trust751]

In Knights of the Old Republic 2, one of the side characters mentions how they used to hunt Jedi professionally despite not being able to use the force themselves and lists a couple tactics they would use.

[@TheDemigans]

1: artillery magic. By adding a relatively long time to "fire" a magic spell they become artillery rather than direct combat murder vehicles. 2: limited power storage. Sure you can kill that guy with a fireball, but what about the next guy? You'd better save your magical power for when you really need it and rely on more normal combat until then. 3: mechanical magic. Ties in with number two somewhat. Magic is about manipulating mechanics, the more you manipulate the more energy and skill it takes. Throwing a fireball takes a lot of energy, lighting candle oil on fire and launching that instead is far more efficient and less cumbersome. 4: no perfect spells. Casting a spell requires skill and concentration, and mistakes alter the spell in some way. It can be less powerful, lack the range, go off-target etc. 5: no "thought" magic but "think" magic instead. Most magic is what I classify as "thought" magic. A healingspell will simply heal any seen and unseen injuries for a certain amount without any further intervention of the caster. A thrown magic missile or fireball will always hit the exact perfect spot the mage intended (unless the target tried to dodge). If the mage has to aim the spell himself then shooting a straight-flying fireball across a battlefield has a high inaccuracy unless the mage is also highly trained in said accuracy. Think magic means you need to know what you are doing to some extend. To heal a wound you need to know its there and have some idea what needs to be done to heal it. To launch a fireball you need the knowledge to light the very air on fire and cause this fiery disturbance to move and stay together until it reaches the target, which could in turn mean there are a dozen different fireballs simply because the understanding and techniques are different. 6: use "low power" magic instead of epic magic. Wolverine's magic lets him heal in seconds, but a superpower that lets you heal in a day is already a ludicrously powerful magic ability. Instead of throwing fireballs you might be able to throw a candleflame, but applied right that is still immensely useful in combat. Similarly the ability to for 1kg telekinesis close to your body and halving in power every meter away would seem insignificant compared to the force, but used the right way it can be an immensely useful tool without making othets obsolete (even when limiting it to outside of the body of your opponents).

[@elperronimo]

Nerd

[@legchairhistorian5496]

@@elperronimo Loser

[@leonardschopper1076]

telikinetic power armour I hear?

[@SeanLaMontagne]

#3 is basically the Fire Nation in Avatar. They don't shoot fireballs from their hands on a ship. They light a giant ball of flammable material and shoot that.

[@heilmodrhinnheimski]

Terry Pratchett actually does a think based magic system sort of. When a wizard tries to levitate somewhere, he first has to calculate the energy created by a falling object to counter the amount of energy it would take to levitate them and then seek out an object that is at more or less the required height or possesses the correct mass. Edit: he also does a whole bunch of other cool things to limit magic within the setting, kinda surprised the video doesn’t touch on them

[@JacobOphir]

I absolutely loved it glad you tea bag the wizard 🤣