SHE'S ACTUALLY MAD! Brutal Live Debate That Made BJG Storm Off

[@destiny]

This ESCALATED Into The Most Personal And Unhinged Drama Ever ►kzbin.info/www/bejne/fV7OmqCemLWWmbM

[@hrknesslovesu]

Smelly Kelly is Jelly for Mr. Borelli's attention.

[@IstandwithIsrael236]

12:16 i think he means not get blown up

[@IstandwithIsrael236]

14:56 i would say UNWRA brainwashing further generations into terrorism is probably the reason that there is no 2 state solution (bc without UNWRA brainwashing there will be less terrorism more reason for an Arab country to come in and run security or something along those lines)

[@IstandwithIsrael236]

16:35 im guessing the next words are not going to be about the fact hamas makes up numbers

[@IstandwithIsrael236]

17:01 she means the explosive made up claims got it (the actual place she probably got it was the AL Jazeera / Al Quds network "version" that claimed it had a 1 terrorist per 25 civilians ratio)

[@No_OneV]

She unironically answered with "they attacked your country, and as a response, you should surrender your country" Freaking paradox. ! Is this some sick simulation? Are these people actual NPCs ?!

[@hylianmango8272]

what should Hitler have done when the French and Warsaw resistance attacked him?

[@Tavat]

Even if that’s a ridiculously hyperbolic stance, the actual status quo is not acceptable. And the fact that D and many others arrive at the conclusion that it is acceptable and even correct is actually frightening. Especially when he/they acknowledge the serious wrongdoings in the West Bank-and then apply only good-faith interpretations of plans and actions in Gaza. And I’ve listened to ALL his Israel/Palestine content. The argument that most Palestinian supporters (not “pro-Hamas”, dipshits) want Israel to fold and cede all its territory to Palestinians is super retarded, and you should be embarrassed for tricking yourself into using that fringe position as a strawman to discount “those NPCs” who are lumped together with anyone against a superior state exacting deaths on tens of thousands of CIVILIANS. You absolutely cannot intellectualize it the way Destiny does. He’s wrong for it.

[@johns1625]

Terrorist sympathizers.

[@pantethine66]

@@hylianmango8272 Nice response because by asking that question they are basically saying Israel the occupying force is the victim of the conflict.

[@ane9911]

Isn't implication when right wingers talk about Ukraine? They never say word "surrender" but implication is always that

[@jloiben12]

It isn’t hard to make BJG mad. Just confront her with the actual consequences of what she believes. Since these often don’t align with how she views herself, the results are often hilarious

[@swarming1092]

There's a lot of Black Americans who centre their own experiences of actual racism so fully that they end up in bed with antisemites. BJG is one of them. She has no actual empathy or support or even really just knowledge of the historical experience of the Jewish people. And she has an incentive not to: because if she acknowledged how the Jews had been treated, not just by Europe but by Africa and the Middle East, she'd have to accept that actually there's a person above her in the Progressive Stack: the Jew. But that's not accepable, and everything else falls out of that.

[@baseplayer21]

Progressives thinking two steps ahead challenge: impossible.

[@jloiben12]

@@baseplayer21 To be fair, civil Tankies aren’t really progressives

[@MrAgnosticman]

If someone's getting upset because you are trying to get them to understand the consequences that will come from their beliefs or suggested solutions, then they are not concerned with consequences. They are more concerned about their own beliefs and solutions winning out than what the aftermath would be. You bringing it up only makes it harder for that "win" to happen and that's infuriating to people like BJG.

[@roymarshall_]

@@baseplayer21 if progressives were capable of conceiving of 2nd and 3rd order effects, they wouldn't be progressives.

[@vortex_1336]

When she's talking about the "Children followed and killed by a drone" she's talking about when israel released the drone footage of 4 Hamas fighters ditching their gear in an abandoned structure, trying to walk away all casual and then the drone opens fire and takes them out. In other words, she's lying.

[@erikkovacs3097]

Those poor "children". Probably just going to the market.

[@deschain1910]

I was so confused by that... If this is actually what she's referring to...I don't even know what to say to that...

[@Tysonnguyen808]

They always leave the first part of the video out where IDF follows them for literally blocks after they ditched their weapons. Only firing when they’re in an open away from dense areas.

[@machineman8388]

Links dont work on YT, so can someone please tell me what to search and where so I can see this for myself? I believed this story because I didn't see the whole video, but I had doubts on why israel would do such a thing. After the world central kitchen thing I didn't really want to question it though, because that seemed as absurd but ended up being true so I figured this was too.

[@FJaypewpew]

Opens fire?? I don’t think there are flying drones like that yet

[@Deezcartes]

How can somebody watch this video and think this guy just looks at Wikipedia. Literally gives their positions before they say it and has better arguments for both sides

[@Perfectcrime87]

They won't watch the video.

[@bazooka712]

Because people are more worried shoehorning people that don't share their point of view and fly the banner of morality rather than being productive in the real life.

[@MrSpudatohead]

They'll just watch a clip of his food being set down beside him and talk about Cuban slaveowners

[@yn7751]

Debatable that he gives better positions, if you're a destiny viewer then you're inclined to agree etc etc

[@bazooka712]

@@yn7751 q.e.d.

[@bat__bat]

Instead of answering what Israel should have done in response to Oct 7, she tries in a very roundabout way to justify Oct 7, such that it shouldn't need any response. I'm not cheering either side of the conflict, but in terms of a good faith discussion, this woman clearly has no interest in the actual events, only what she can potentially gain from showing up and going through the motions. Disgusting.

[@Liberal_pan]

Some the super progressive people are confusing. My guess is just a lack of perspective or knowledge or what exactly is occurring on the ground. They seem like they want to be good people but just have bad facts or something

[@pantethine66]

By asking that question you are basically saying Israel the occupying force is the victim of the conflict.

[@hermithefrog629]

​@pantethine66 they are the victim of october 7th. They are the victims of the war in gaza and the west bank. They are the defenders just trying to get their children and husbands and wives and parents and siblings back home. Normal palestinians took part and took hostages alongside the hardcore terrorists, and decapitated a Thai foreign worker for no reason aside from bloodlust. There are so very, very few innocents in gaza. The majority are the remaining hostages.

[@veritasabsoluta4285]

​​@@pantethine66 No, are you braindead?

[@sutulj]

The irony of her having a channel called "bad faith"...🤦🏻

[@christophernoneya4635]

Its really frustrating how this works. One side is willing to make excuses for any horrible thing their side does while the other is pretty open about all the negative things their side has done, doesn't tend to excuse their actions, but ultimately believes that its the lesser of the two evils. Its really quite frustrating to see them squirm and try to avoid ever addressing any serious criticisms of their side, and for some people its because they simply do not care or they enjoy the things that side has done. The amount that will call these sorts of actions unjustifiable but out the other side of their mouth revel in it is just painful

[@danhemsley]

Depending on the reader, this comment would model to both sides view of themselves and their ‘opponents’ 😂 Edit: For context I see the position of the commenter clearly despite any ambiguity. You just know a PP person would also read this, identifying themselves as the reasonable party. I’m speaking to the polarity and self delusions that we’re seeing in these debates.

[@roymarshall_]

Its Disney movie psychology. They have aligned themselves with the oppressed underdog, and in Disney movies the oppressed underdogs have no moral flaws. It is this exact kind of mindset that breeds extremism.

[@Toanleigh]

​@@danhemsleyThat is the point, no?

[@christophernoneya4635]

@@danhemsley i don't think the side claiming "from river to sea" often admits to wrong. They are still fighting on the hill that the hospital was Israel's fault, they deny the atrocities on the 7th, and so on... They can't admit their side did anything wrong because this deconstructs their view of this conflict being one sided bullying. Have to avoid proper nouns because KZbin deleted comments with certain keywords

[@christophernoneya4635]

@@Toanleigh any comment I make with proper nouns gets deleted so I have to use vague terms. I think it's pretty clear the side claiming "from river to sea" is unwilling to admit any faults whereas the popular defenders of the other side will denounce tons of things. That's why you see all these interviews where they're asked "do you support/denounce x" and they try to talk their way out of it while the other side is able to just give a simple answer

[@DL-dg5vt]

I looked up this chick in the dictionary, she was under ‘bad faith’ but also a gold medal winning mental gymnast. Pretty cool.

[@caninetiger777]

Does anyone know why the following point isn't addressed? Israel, which everyone agrees is significantly more technologically capable than Hamas, has admitted that 17% of their military deaths in this conflict is a result of friendly fire or preventable accidents. If that's the case, then what percentage of the 35,000 civilian deaths are actually a result of Hamas friendly fire and the errant homemade backyard rocket? I've seen numbers ranging from 10%-30% of Hamas fired rockets don't even leave Gaza. If 19,000 rockets have been fired since the start of the war, that means the lowest number of rockets that never left Gaza is 1,900!!! (albeit some unexploded) And that's forgetting the errant mortar or RPG!! Why does no one mention this?!

[@lybnychavez6953]

Because unfortunately many people are either stooopid or not well intentioned

[@Lochness19]

Matt Tardio, a US Special Forces veteran, from Speak The Truth on KZbin, talks about this a lot. Hamas makes no attempt to aim their rockets, so I wouldn't be surprised if the number was even higher than 30%. And of course, even though Israel experiences few casualties from those rockets, Gaza is not covered by the Iron Dome like Israel is. There was a video of a boy in Gaza running down the street getting killed by an airstrike that pro-Palestinians were trying to use as evidence of how evil Israel is but the damage was very characteristic of a Hamas rocket. And you have that hospital that they hit. And most of the cameras on Gaza are Hamas/pro-Palestine controlled, so I'm sure there are a lot more examples we don't know about. There's also loads of booby traps all around Gaza, just laying in the street and such, and it's definitely not just Israeli soldiers getting killed by them.

[@fokerfakerfuker]

Alright sure let's assume u geniuses are correct and 40% of the deaths can be attributed to Hamas. 0.6*35000 = 21000. Does that make u happier and more convinced that Israel is good?

[@fokerfakerfuker]

U also fail to take into factor the casualties that die from injury, buried under the ruins, the babies that die from a lack of medical resources, the population that died from hunger. Why don't u point these out too?? Expose your bias much?

[@caninetiger777]

@@Lochness19 I'm glad at least someone discusses it. It's really not a point I see talked about in any of the debates despite its apparent significance.

[@LuciusSicarius]

Getting a straight answer out of BJG Difficulty level: Impossible

[@matthewyoho5422]

Usually that's the template for a joke that at least slightly exaggerates the truth... but she literally never answered a single question that Konstantin posed to her, with an actual answer to his question. Not even once.

[@chomskysfavefive]

Even with people she agrees with, it's wild.

[@natethewaller98]

Nothing is impossible. It's just improbable. It isnt worth the time and energy sacrificed to get an answer out of BJG. We all already understand her general viewpoint on the conflict. It would be nice to hear her say what we know she believes, but it's most likely never going to happen.

[@house684]

She was amazing, though. I mean, how do you have a normal discussion with people who support Israel?

[@soggycheese8485]

​@@house684 you are adorable. Go back to sleep my baby.

[@jumpergamer1913]

Is that the woman who uses Israeli hostages as a talking point for a ceasefire?

[@roymarshall_]

This is the woman who rolls her eyes exasperated when hearing about the rape of Israeli women

[@charlesmiv3842]

@@roymarshall_ There's no evidence of any rapes that occurred.

[@paaklapi]

Yes, she is. Briahna has made the point that if the Israelis want the hostages back, they should stop fighting. She never explains why she thinks Hamas should be trusted to release the hostages instead of trying to get more concessions out of Israel, but hey ho. She's obviously much smarter and knowledgeable than us who regard her take as completely crazy.

[@Sar-gd7yi]

The irony of her speaking as a black 'oppressed' woman who has absolutely no idea what it is to actually be in danger, that she can roll her eyes about mass rape, torture, and murder is just so perfectly reflective of woke ideology. ​@@paaklapi

[@yoloswaggins7121]

Is that totally unreasonable?

[@percilenis8464]

Progrsssives will never concede that Israel has a just cause for war even if the conduct of that warfare is in breach of international law and rules of engagement because that means Israel has a right to defend itself and is a legitimate state. Extreme people like BJG cannot concede that point because it wouldn’t allow them to justify Hamas’ violence and conduct. To her, Hamas is justified in warfare and is free to use whatever means necessary to win which is why she refuses to condemn Hamas’ actions. The ends justify the means and if you deny the legitimacy of the ends then the means are irrelevant. That is the logic she is using and that’s why you will NEVER get off the ground with people like her.

[@lionsoldier1179]

Even more ironic is that if they say Israel is a legitimate state then they would have to apply their logic of hamas’ conduct to Israel, that being justified and free to do what they want.

[@vvieites001]

They passed just months ago. Israel is going too far

[@edwardcahill1631]

American progressives or at least the way right-wingers etc. see what a progressive is doesn't add up to even a simple understanding of the word progressive. Especially considering that there are only right-wingers in America you have your far right, then your conservative right, then center right and lastly your right-winger with compassion and empathy for others.

[@mr.OldNews]

It is so blatant how bad faith she is.. like there could be a video of an Israeli teenager being slowly waterboarded by Hamas militants And she'll spin that as Hamas still being the victims. Gross human being.

[@sutulj]

BJG: It's justified because Israel holds all the watering pipes of Gaza!! I wander how did they get there?😏

[@jasonmillsom2981]

To be fair Israel is more likely doing the waterboarding

[@zacros8116]

She has a podcast or show LITERALLY CALLED "BAD FAITH" just such a vile hateful person. sad

[@beanybabyrabie]

@@jasonmillsom2981you give literal ter////rorists way too much credit. Maybe you should go to the Middle East to see how things are done.

[@KMFWR]

So is Russia vs Ukraine not a war? Russia is the largest country in the world and Ukraine is 45th. So unequal means no war?

[@DomCoreLeon]

Ikr. Her comment was so ignorant. But she lives in fairytale land and pushes for a utopia, so I'm not surprised she thinks war is like playing sports where they have weight classes or they don't fight

[@Kouros-y2t]

@@DomCoreLeon Thats a good comparison. I guess civilians in the West have had the luxury of being shielded from the realities of history for a relatively long time and this is the result. Almost adorable but pretty stupid.

[@ExeErdna]

Why her logic israel vs gaza isn't a war either. Yet she won't say that and most likely just get loud and deflect.

[@KMFWR]

@@ExeErdna wasn't Israel and Palestine her exact point of reference?

[@ExeErdna]

@@KMFWR That's honestly the moment she really screwed up. She can't be like "oh here's war crimes" yet "oh that isn't a war". Sometimes it's just better to not speak on something.

[@RobertEgbers]

Brianna is absolutely THE worst bad faith character out there

[@ScorpiertheGreat]

Excepting maybe Vaush

[@beeofdoom]

Sam Seder and co is not far behind though...

[@house684]

This comment must have been written by an Israeli bot.

[@respectfulgamer7232]

@@house684 Leave the cult, there is still time.

[@house684]

@@respectfulgamer7232 I'm not a Zionist... Never have been.

[@sammy8749]

we’re so back

[@sanguinesr0se]

the content we deserve

[@daves465]

2:10:55 - Actually the Jews were expelled from the Gaza strip in 1929, when Arab riots broke out throughout Palestine. There are still Jews with Ottoman issued deeds to houses in Gaza. The Jews only returned to Gaza in 1967.

[@robinthrush9672]

The most annoying thing with people talking about this conflict is that it always seems to be "who took it last?" rather than "who had it originally?" And this weird modern thought that conquered peoples have some sort of blank check on an eternal blood feud to regain lost land.

[@daves465]

So who had it originally? ​@@robinthrush9672

[@JerryCheevers]

Ottomans who took over the colony from mamluks, who took over the colony from the caliphates, the enduring chain of arab muslim colonization originating in around 650 AD

[@charlesmcguffin2979]

Israel is an ethnostate but not "Palestine" and Pan Arabism.

[@markantony9038]

An ethnostate is when there's a bunch of different ethnicities within one country. Don't ya know?

[@dr.virtuoso]

@@PigPissBeUponThem wtf are you talking about? islam doesn't allow other ethnicities?

[@TotalWater-d2o]

Israel: Democratic society, 21% Arab with Arabs given full citizenship rights and allowed to from their own political parties (such as the Palestinian Arab nationalist party, Balad). Meanwhile, Arab Nations: Most outright ban any Israeli's immigration let alone practising their religious beliefs. *Lefty Loon:* REEE! Israel is an ethnostate! REEE!

[@SafavidAfsharid3197]

​@@PigPissBeUponThemall Islamic countries are multi ethnic but the thing is that they are apartheid states where non Muslims have less rights.

[@IndiaTides]

@@markantony9038 Iran cleaned out Zorostrarians and made it Islamic. Pakistan cleaned out Hindu and made it Islamic. Turks are central Asians. Arabs cleaned out Israel of jews. You can see this trend. There were different types of colonialisms. I consider them as colonial power as well.

[@mariejustme]

BJG doesn’t understand the concept of “don’t start none, won’t be none.”

[@AizenIsKubo]

She probably does when it involved Black thugs resisting arrest and police officers. Then she will be like "The police shouldn't have started anything and let the thugs do whatever they want".

[@bankoleojo-medubi4452]

1:54:18 Sorry, Destiny, Islamism does matter a lot in contributing to this conflict. I live in Northern Nigeria which has suffered many religious riots in which thousands of southerners and Christians have been killed. Imams had taught people that non-Muslims were infidels to be killed or subjugated, and it was actually a goal to die in pursuit of this. In 2002, 20k-30k lost their homes to one of these riots that started because Miss World was to be held in a northern city. This is an extremely hard mindset to even start to dialogue with.

[@MangaBear]

I'm honestly sorry for the atheist and Christian holy fuck that's awful...

[@מאירבק]

Yeah I think destiny is right on the money about most things in this conflict... but he underestimates the role of Islam in determining palestinian actions as well as the regional view against israel

[@spifflord308]

Her facial expressions are infuriating...and then there are the WORDS she says. Holy smokes.

[@andx79]

This woman is aweful, how is she taken seriously? Hamas started a war then calls foul when the people they attacked fight back and they sacrifice their mothers, fathers, children and neighbors by hiding under and in their homes.

[@jloiben12]

Moderators in conversations like this need to have mute buttons for the mics of their speakers

[@The_True_Boo_Radley]

And an air horn.

[@VoltigarRBLX]

good idea on paper but i feel like a ton of people just wouldn't agree to come on to panels where there's the possibility of them just heinously getting muted. also gives them hella excuses "they were just gonna mute me and ramble off their talking points!"

[@jloiben12]

@@VoltigarRBLX If someone is that terrified of a mute button, all you have to do is publicize that the person is that scared of a mute button and their credibility will be shot

[@VoltigarRBLX]

@@jloiben12 their credibility most certainly wouldnt be shot, people have declined panels for less and absolutely didnt suffer a credibility hit. it's also pretty reasonable... especially if you're going on to a platform that's even slightly unfavorable to your politics.

[@lonewaer]

@@VoltigarRBLX _« a ton of people just wouldn't agree to come on to panels where there's the possibility of them just heinously getting muted »_ "Heinously" is overly dramatic. Sometimes in such debates, a motherhumper needs to shut his/her trap. A mute/horn button solves this. Of course, that requires the moderator to be able to be a fair moderator, which, as much as I appreciate K. Kisin in general, he's overtly biased/pro-Israel, he has been. I'm still at the start, but I doubt he even _can_ be a good moderator on this topic.

[@SNEEDWRLD]

Greyjoy is so insufferable

[@haroldbrown893]

We do not sow

[@areichental]

I hope her and Candice Owen's do a fusion dance for maximum bad faith and question dodging.

[@merlin5849]

Yes...euron greyjoy

[@paaklapi]

The Greyjoys were much cooler in the books. D&D did them so dirty.

[@walkerdefaul8487]

She didn’t used to be it’s sad.

[@creep9498]

Brianna joy gray feels like the female sneako, what happens when child like wonder takes you down the worst paths

[@Fjaloeat1]

Sneako is a genuine brainlet. You can't truly fault him. BJG is an insidious bad faith actor who knows exactly what she is doing. She's so much worse.

[@yn7751]

@NestorMakhno_1789 i would say Sneako is equally devious, his thought process in his older content is worlds apart from more recent years. He comes off as an idiot because his new personality is one where he cant logically defend the positions but still decides to lean into it unlike someone like Brianna who expertly dogwhistles around the positions to maintain rep.

[@nand8203]

What happens when child like wonder takes you down the worst paths is a great line. Very cool I’m gonna use that later

[@Rallylabs]

@@Fjaloeat1I think while she is intelligent enough, she also legit doesn’t know shit about anything.

[@DomCoreLeon]

I think she's actively racist and mostly anti white in any regard. If she could press a button and white people became 2nd class citizens/the lowest tier.. she would do it. Her positions.. regardless of the situation is always curiously demonizing white people. I'm brown and hearing her weaponize Hispanics and other groups so often as some helpless victim so she can use that as a cugdel is infantlizing and infuriating. She's a sophisticated black supremacist, we see a few white ones and of groups every once in a while too

[@devonmarr9872]

A point i would have liked to be made. By Hamas' count 1/4 killed in Gaza were militants. By IDF count a little less than 1/2 killed in Gaza were militants. By either od those counts it cannot be a genocide.

[@kabine1]

Israel gets criticized by society that generally follows a carpenter while trying to make a deal with a society that follows a warlord.

[@izzykhach]

Well said.

[@mariomario1462]

But destiny said islamism doesn't matter cuz not all Muslims

[@Kouros-y2t]

​@@mariomario1462 He may have met one or two Arabs on his trip who smiled nicely.

[@JerryCheevers]

a pedo warlord.

[@O0kalā]

55:17 BJG: "Within 24 hours that was corrected." Destiny's neck nearly snaps.

[@DaDa-rg6ts]

Destiny calling Brianna and Alex Dumb and Dumber was hilarious 😂😂😂

[@vger9186]

Hear me out, what if, when Palestinians broke into Nova festival they started to dance instead of r$pe and m$rder?

[@fixpontt]

that would have solved the entire situation forever and everybody would have lived happily ever after

[@skurasch]

​@fixpontt are you unironically saying footloose was the solution all along?

[@cameraman502]

@@skurasch The Baconaton knew the answer all along.

[@ExeErdna]

@@skurasch Always was the real path to peace

[@aaronsaada9878]

Destiny keeping the idea that Islam isn't a huge part in this conflict has to be one of the most infuriating things about him

[@ericsonofjohn9384]

He’s secretly a muslim

[@jenispizz2556]

If you feel strongly about it, why don't you make that case either here or in the reddit? You should put up an argument my friend.

[@3rdEyeWide]

@@jenispizz2556 85-90% of the "Palestinians" are Sunni Muslim. Their foundational religious texts make it a "holy" mission to get rid of Jews: Sahih Muslim 2922. Christians also aren't similarly loved: Qu'ran 5-51. Muslims have a saying, "After Saturday comes Sunday" (meaning after we get rid of the people who worship on Saturday we"ll get the people who worship on Sunday). "Palestinians" have been offered their own state next to Israel multiple times but always refuse (probably indicative of the fact they won't accept anything less than ALL the land). Even a so-called "moderate" political organisation like the "Palestinian" Authority have never published a charter in Arabic that hasn't called for the destruction of Israel. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (Islamic head) sided with Hitler during WW2 and sought the expulsion/eradication of Jews from the area BEFORE Israel was even created. 800,000 Jews were expelled from Islamic-dominated countries for the "sin" of the creation of Israel. How are other minorities faring in the ME at the hands of the adherents of the "religion of peace"? "Christian Persecution in the Middle East reaching 'genocide-like' levels" - BBC 3rd May 2019. Yeah, I say there might just be a possibility that religion plays a part in this conflict, and one religion in particular's ability - or inability - to tolerate differing beliefs.

[@laurameszaros9547]

@@jenispizz2556 People are too scared to speak about it, to call a spade a spade. Islamic theology has always been a huge part of this conflict. Look at Robert Spencer's "History of Jihad". That'll give you all the arguments you need.

[@livewire87]

Agreed !

[@jloiben12]

“Why is this so [] difficult?” Because BJG has a habit of liking when bad things happen. She will know that she likes when bad things happen so when she gets confronted on how she wants a bad thing to happen, she knows it is problematic but she can’t handle the dissonance in a healthy way so you get things like this (an edit was made to more accurately cite what was said)

[@overtherenowaitthere]

She's the epitome of bad faith, she has faith for bad things to happen and will argue as if you have the same mindset. So either way it's a 2 way bad faith debate to her every single time.

[@artoriassif3728]

@@overtherenowaitthereshe’s so bad faith that’s what she named her podcast thinking she was bringing funny instead of what it really was, her showing her truest colors

[@orhutubeli5332]

The second Intifada started after Yasser Arafat refused Ehud Barack's offer to receive 96% of Judea and Sameria for the establishment of a Palestinian state. It ended only after years of suicide bombings on buses and Israeli decision to launch operation Defensive Wall which cancled the parts of the Oslo accords that granted autonomy in the Palestinian cities.

[@Steve2016100]

Favorite line, "Do not talk over me, I am not Robbie Souve"

[@Zeiss120]

That actually happened??? Time mark pls?

[@joellecohen679]

What was the reference to?

[@Zeiss120]

@@joellecohen679 if you watched The Hill, she was a host on that show with a guy named Robbie. And just like here she would berate, yell, talk over etc him because if you're not on her side, you are on the wrong side.

[@azure_azure]

Moynihan is a really funny guy. The Fifth Column podcast is worth checking out.

[@roymarshall_]

52:12

[@ekaterinastaneva9922]

But this is so common, expelling people violently from one territory to another after a war. My grandma was born in north Greece, which was bulgaria. After siding with Hitler and loosing the war, bulgaria was deprived from this area as a penalty. Like litherally a bunch of winners said ok we take this Bulgarian land and give it to Greece, because Greece was our ally. It was brutal, my grandad was with few men trying to hold the Greeks off while women and children escape. There were ra*pes, there was looting, homes were burned. But guess what - Bulgaria did exactly the same to Serbians after we win a battle in balkan wars. We did some pretty nasty things to these people. Now the question is shall I invade north Greece because my grandma was born there and her parents were both there? I think no. I do feel sentiment, she feels sentiment but we moved on, because there is no point in engaging in infinite conflict over it. In case of Palestine and Gaza specifically it is very related to the fact that they got sh*t home after they were kicked out of their home. Probably if my grandma was cramped in some mega populated blocks instead of getting a big beautiful home in stunning south Bulgarian mountains, she would have been quite unhappy. And also if there is an organisation litheraly dedicated in pouring salt in the wound.

[@eeyun5279]

The Balkan conflicts took a looong time to settle down right? For people to move on and those sentiments of revenge to fade? I’m not saying they’re 100% gone even today, but how much of that tension do you chalk up to outside influences? Personally I find outside actors like Iran don’t get nearly enough blame for instigating conflict at the expense of Palestinians, were the Balkan conflicts pretty similar with all the global actors involved in that? Or would you say it was mostly internal sentiment?

[@chomskysfavefive]

Very well said. It's terrible, but we are all here right now due to a lot of bloodshed.

[@bloom4807]

Yeah, that happened to many countries who lost the war. Romania also sided with Germany in ww2 and lost Moldova to the Soviets. People moved on…

[@yaeli_i_guess]

Agreed especially when there's a Jewish nakba from arabic countries that is larger than the palestinian nakba from israel. My grandparents fled yemen but you dont see me attacking yemen lmao

[@sutulj]

Your grandma was a refugee, you are not. 75 y.o. Palestinians and older where refugees and for "some reasons" everyone of their descendants are also refugees... Even if they are second generation born in Europe

[@IaMD.B.]

This whole debate is pointless. If the people who are arguing against Israel did so solely for the reason of being pro-Palestinian, then that would be one thing, but it's actually never the case. They always do so because they're actively anti-Israel, and want to see the country abolished. They talk about atrocities against Palestinians from one side of their mouth, but at the same time, they don't give a damn if atrocities will be commited against Jews as a result of their policies. "Right of Return!" "Citizenship for Palestinians!" "End the Blockade!" OK, sure, great virtue signaling right there. Now if any of these things actually happened, thousands of Jews will be killed. Does anyone care? Does anyone even deny this? No. Hypocrites.

[@Drigallski]

common Greyjoy L. Can't even hold Harrenhal....

[@gaz4553]

😂

[@alansnyder9]

Tbf, Harrehall is cursed.

[@Reel___]

​@@alansnyder9lol facts

[@Copemaxer]

ASOIAF reference

[@silentcalling]

1:11:10 - BJG calls Gaza and the West Bank a "refugee camp," but has talked at length in the past about how great Gaza was before Israel attacked. If that's not talking out of both corners of your mouth, I don't know what is.

[@beanybabyrabie]

What genocide do we know of that would be ended just by the “victims” returning hostages they took after slaughtering over 1,000 civilians?

[@B-Nice]

😥 sad that Briahnna's no different from other influencers who have a quick rise to fame, then get found out to be completely dishonest and braindead, and fall flat on their face for all to see 🍿

[@BennettMats]

BJG is so strange, she graduated from harvard law, she SHOULD be great at this. I guess this is what happens to a brain when you care more about your ideology that you do facts

[@AizenIsKubo]

@@BennettMats LOL Ivy League colleges.............. they produce indoctrinated students. Not just Ivy Leagues most big ones do. That's why it churns out Leftist ideologues instead of thinking adults.

[@JerryCheevers]

@@BennettMats its also an indictment of harvard.

[@AS-wu8ob]

She’s been known for several years now

[@effectosis742]

We need Destiny making the 23&Me DNA test to be sure that Destiny is not at least 1% Jewish... which would mean that he has a 1% bias towards Jew people !

[@isaiahvaldez3330]

11 shekels that he is 102% Shepardic Jewish with 2% margin of error.

[@ronniekregar3482]

Stephan Bonellberg needs to start wearing his yamaka on stream lol

[@HighFlyinBird90]

0℅ Watching him in Israel he doesn't have what it takes to be a Jew.

[@zappersolo7588]

He can be a reform​@@HighFlyinBird90

[@JABRONIANGELOR]

@@HighFlyinBird90 what does it take to be one ?

[@kc_h7h]

The black woman is based. This is why I subbed to her channel and am watching her reaction to bjg

[@richardhands904]

What timestamp

[@kc_h7h]

@@richardhands904 0:00

[@Slava_Ukraini1991]

had me there for a minute. good one.

[@topaz2821]

When it comes to “dumb bombs” they are still targeted using CCIP(constantly calculated impact point) and/or CCRP(constant calculated release point). CCIP allows for the pilot so see the impact point of the bomb through the HUD, and CCRP shows the release point that the pilot should drop the bomb at in level flight through the designation of a specific target. The way these targets are found by the pilot is through laser designators and ground radar systems. The pilots have extreme awareness.

[@cdnengineer]

Everyone of American Indigenous people have been forced off their land. Will BJG give up her house if a descendant comes to her door? What about Konigsburg? Does Germany have a right to go war with Russia? What about Polish occupation of Prussia?

[@olicorrivo3289]

Destiny needs to debate BJG. Two strong black woman on opposite side of this issue is what we need.

[@lionsoldier1179]

This is the funniest comment I’ve seen all day, thank you

[@calikingeroticparadise1441]

I'm begging for this !

[@MichelleKavarnos]

The applying western frameworks to non western countries and conflicts hits the nail on the head.

[@TheDarkendstar]

Okay to be fair one of them is a western country

[@Kouros-y2t]

Perfectly. People in the west also don't understand the harsh dynamics of power in this region of the world. They have been shielded from the realities of history for so long, the naivety is almost adorable. For Israel it would be fatal.

[@Renwa82]

BJG is such an icky person

[@willknowsright9615]

sticky.....

[@ezragoldberg3132]

Sticky Icky

[@off6848]

Nah she fine

[@bilbobluntz1946]

@@off6848nah, she ain’t

[@MagicPants647]

for someone who’s so intelligent and logical, i’m still trying to wrap my head around how you think Islam isn’t the root of the palestinians problems.

[@kristofferplaneus4472]

How ever u twist and turn the problem is Islam, Not only in this war but in the west as a hole.

[@daves465]

Even in the Arab world different sects of Islam war amongst each other.

[@Car-qu2bc]

Bingo. The Taylor swift concert plan is a great example of this s

[@jordanthomas4379]

42:10 - there has been no solid evidence proving these 4 people were children, they were walking from a Hamas compound through a destroyed area of buildings.

[@hawaiin420]

Not quite 6 hour but thank you nonetheless Augustus

[@Thunderdumpe]

at 2:33:00 I think you were missing the difference between malnutrition and starvation. Children die of unbalanced diet pretty easily, looking at total available calories mostly only makes sense for adults, children are way less resilient and versatile. Even with starvation a toddler would be in serious trouble if we found no food for three days, while I could skip 3 weeks before anything serious starts to happen. So looking at the mother being mostly ok doesn't mean the children would be fine.

[@Ameydusa1]

There is an Islamic “supremacy” movement happening in places like the UK and Australia. This point isn’t dismissible.

[@ChaseFarrow]

1:04:31 is correct. "Dumb bombs" like Mk82s and Mk84s are still extremely accurate. They just don't adjust course after dropped. The pilot uses the aircraft's CCIP system decide the impact point via the bomb reticle and when he drops. "Smart bombs" are generally either GPS guided or they're laser guided buy a JTAC unit that's on the ground manually marking, (or "lazing") a target. That's really useful for hitting things like tanks or moving vehicles. If you're just trying to hit a static target, unguided bombs are perfectly accurate.

[@tsu9788]

I'd just like to point out that 21000 people died of malnutrition in America in 2022

[@CheetahNuggs]

Malnutrition and starvation are not the same thing...

[@oknahh]

I generally agree with most of destiny's analysis but not about jihad. Theres a big difference to being raised in Muslim countries even those with shira law to raising generations of ppl as islamic extremist. Discounting this is discounting one of the biggest reasons why it's not been resolved. The palistnians have been screwed bc of an idiology its leadership prioritizes above life.

[@colkestrel]

Steven saying, the Palestinian argument to the statement of stop starting wars and losing them is basically well they did get favorable concession so is it really a loss? My response would basically be so Israel should basically never have been nice to the people of the Gaza strip then.

[@ski6035]

it’s crazy that wikipedia had such a comprehensive coverage that destiny was able to predict both side of the argument before they spoke and then provide a stronger argument just by reading wikipedia.

[@IILunchTraeII]

Zamn they did this to her on Juneteenth

[@wil404]

When an honest person is asked a question in a debate, it never looks like this. All an honest person has to do is state what they believe to be true. BJG is hiding her power level.

[@TheMidgetchaser]

Props to the editor… it’s a turning point

[@matthewn.crawford7840]

2019: "pets don't have moral consideration" 2024: "meow, buddy, I have a cat now"

[@Zeiss120]

I am so glad she got kicked off the hill, also I'm happy these people aren't pushovers like Robbie and call her out on her bull 💩

[@bradmiles1984]

Robbie snapped at her several times before she was fired. Robbie did take her crap for a long time but he was actively pushing back on her before she was let go. At one point he essentially called her a useful idiot for the side she's pushing for.

[@Zeiss120]

@@bradmiles1984 I stopped watching because it was just insufferable. I only saw once when he pushed back, good to hear he did it even more. One I remember he was about to call her a racist but he backed down.

[@bradmiles1984]

@Zeiss120 Yeah, over time they way she treated him, I think wore on him, and he started to snap back regularly, but like I said it's a recent thing. The reason she was fired was how terrible she acted during and after the debate.

[@steviejohnson378]

Robbie did push back against BJG. On the other hand, Saagar at Breaking Points offers no criticism at his co host as she rages against Israel.

[@Zeiss120]

@@steviejohnson378 Not gonna argue. I disagree with Krystal too and think some of her takes are over the top. And unlike when they left The Hill, BP was more in the middle. These days he just like you said lets her go off.

[@joex120]

1:58:46 This seems like a moot point. If its true that religious ideology is a primary driver of the conflict, it tracks that the Muslim countries bordering Israel would be the ones most incensed into action. Do Islamists anywhere else even have the capability to fight with Israel? Not saying that his broader argument is wrong though.

[@grandgibbon2071]

Destiny pretty much sums up everything in his initial thing about how people are not going to really care if it's million, or 100000 cops. The issue in their mind is that x group shouldn't be getting killed to begin with. Most people in the Israel conversation do not really care about the history, because as far as they are concerned Jewish people settled the land against the locals' wills and are an occupying colonial force. Everything else from their follows, the simple logic that one must do whatever is necessary to get liberation.

[@GODOURSALVATION.]

Saw her mocking an Israeli talking about rape, and belittling rapes by hamas, the very reason she was fired

[@sutulj]

‏‪1:49:55‬‏ Aren't Gigi and Bela Hadid considered as a Palestinian "refugees" ?

[@matthewyoho5422]

Yes, yes they are; UNRWA is a massively fraudulent organization that exists purely to ensure that this conflict NEVER ends, until Israel ceases to exist, under the pretext of providing humanitarian aid for "refugees" who are not refugees by the standards anyone else anywhere else in the entire world would apply.

[@sutulj]

​@@matthewyoho5422 Gigi can adopt a Ukrainian baby and have him registered as a Palestinian refugee 😂😂😂.... 🤕

[@מאירבק]

​@@sutulj😂😂😂

[@craigviau9555]

I agree with BJG the Palestinians should be given right of return but only if every Arab country in the world give's 10% of its land for Jews and another 10% for Christians and by give I mean leave and let Jews and Christians occupy the land. This would be a real right of return since most of those countries had millions of Christians and Jews before they committed genocide on them. This would include Pakistan, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Yemen, Afghanistan, Morocco, Algeria, Libya and many many more.

[@poffpoff1]

I wish debate would have lawyers like court cases. Both sides would get one "lawyer" each whose job it is to object when a debate tactic is used destructively or when a question is dodged. The moderator would then overrule or sustain. "Objection, appeal to authority" "Sustained" Would be so funny in the middle of a retort. (Could be done by the debaters but it's cumbersome to figure out retorts and arguments while looking for these)

[@poffpoff1]

@@bluesh0es true. So an overruled objection should award bonus time to regroup? For court cases lawyers are just expected not to let objections disrupt the flow I guess.

[@patricksikhrangkur8814]

The biggest issue in my mind, honestly with both a debate and a court case, is that people can and will speak over an objection, and while you might call for a statement to be stricken from the record, something once said can't be unsaid. This still functions in a courtroom setting explicitly because of the level of decorum demanded from every party involved. You could enforce decorum in live debates, but it would have to be done through multiple debates, and you'd have to be willing to end the debate yourself by simply throwing out one or even multiple participants.

[@poffpoff1]

@@patricksikhrangkur8814 if there was a way to objectively determine a "winner" of the debate maybe separated by discussed topics the platform would build confidence and authority over time and eventually "debateplatform declared you winner and you a loser" would actually mean something. But I suppose this isn't a likely outcome although it sure would be good content. (People already likes to watch court cases)

[@JesseTate]

watched it for 3 hours yesterday, now am fully prepared to repeat

[@urban_video5949]

unemployed

[@JesseTate]

@@Sid00077 But there's gonna be a whole new VOD tomorrow and I want to watch that one twice as well! Destiny only has 9K average viewers, we have to get that up to 20K at least and no fewer than four separate computers of mine will be contributing from individual accounts at all times.

[@xoferwalken]

3:43 when on God's green earth has this ever been the standard for defining what a "war" is? is this how debate is done now? you just manufacture a "fact" mid-sentence and expect the other side to accept it as reality so that your argument sounds stronger?

[@SacredCASHcow]

no im not watching 3 hours debate from Brianna who never answers a question

[@haruhirogrimgar6047]

Better this than interpersonal drama. This is at least politics.

[@RadicalizedRadical]

My brother in Christ. This is the best weapon the right has. Let them embarrass themselves. They are the only reason the right is winning almost everywhere in the west. Other than the UK , Australia and Canada

[@SacredCASHcow]

@@haruhirogrimgar6047 warfare is also politics my point is I don't want to engage with all forms of politics

[@dalodulo1373]

​@SacredCASHcow Isn't the basis for most of the content from this channel politics, though?

[@SacredCASHcow]

@@dalodulo1373 this isnt much of a debate. its propoganda

[@Soeradj18]

Never clicked so fast!

[@martthesling]

I came 🤤

[@idahodreams]

if you were a real fan youd have seen this stream yesterday

[@stahb3397]

it kills me that BJG is still taken seriously anywhere

[@MisterS.]

The bar for propee arguments is insanely low. You can be inhumane, dishonest, inconsistent, and still be cheered by your quite big echochamber.

[@ravenhawk3758]

Another point @3:23.00. Got this from Forbes regarding Yahya Sinwar and Gilad Shalit prisoner swap. 'In 1989, Sinwar was sentenced to four consecutive life sentences for abducting and murdering two Israeli soldiers, and served in an Israeli prison … until his 2011 release, part of a massive prisoner swap in which Israeli officials freed more than 1,000 prisoners in exchange for Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, who had been captured by Hamas.'

[@YurrNext]

Who the fuck tells a person to feed their cat a vegan diet?! Cats are fucking carnivores!🤯

[@ReddFoxx1562]

smooth brains

[@StankyTheKlown]

It’s a joke pretty sure

[@dxshawn532]

​@@StankyTheKlownNope he makes his cat eat vegan food

[@ballisticfish1212]

Destiny saying he couldn’t rate that guys fit because he doesn’t know enough about mixing different materials yet 😂😂

[@waburg9573]

3 HOURS AFTER 6 HOUR VIDEO 😊😊😊

[@techninja3001]

86% of Palestinians supported 10/7. How are they innocent civilians? More than 50% of Palestinians provide aid, comfort or shelter to Hamas fighters. How are they innocent? Women and children can be terrorists too.

[@Kyneship]

4:52 I believe the term destiny is looking for is militarized interstate dispute, commonly abbreviated to MID

[@TheHighlanderprime]

Love your show man. But the choppy interruptions are killing me with a dizzy spell. Palestinians are 85% Sunni Arabs. Thay are Arabs dude! The Palestinian identity automatically means a denial of a Jewish State. How about calling them Jordanian Arab settlers?

[@LunarLocust]

I don't know why that guy brought up dumb bombs being cheaper munitions, it's jews, of course they're using cheap munitions.

[@Car-qu2bc]

Kek

[@hrhdhdhhdhe]

Lmao ! Your cat sounds needy like mine. He's jealous you're talking to the computer I bet

[@spazmang101]

I went over the video twice. Nobody stormed off the stage. Am I missing something or is this the most misleading title I've ever seen? There is a tweet in the thumbnail, but nothing in the video...

[@windmerge]

I went to comments for this very reason and I NEVER comment. At least I'm not alone in wondering that

[@Anri0]

2:52:45

[@Azzam446]

Thank you August for having dgg chat on screen

[@SalamiCellar]

BJG is doing a great job at making sure she never works again

[@BootsieTheGreek]

I thought she got embarrassed that debate then she gets fired and cries about being canceled I had been commenting on her shows posts for months now about how bad she is at her job

[@famalam943]

When BJG claims something has been ‘debunked’ what she means is she saw a thread from the twitter squirrel

[@guidobolke5618]

She is just talking amok, automatically, semi-consiously and continously producing similar phrases over and over again. That's ok, if you don't know the answer yet and have to gain some time, but she never gets an idea. She is debating by wearing any intelligent person out.

[@mansnotprot1544]

You can tell she loves the sound of her own voice

[@xdxdsheep]

About the dumb bomb, smart bomb thing. In WWII, there was no smart bomb. A dive bomber could hit a moving warship that could be harder to aim than a stationary apartment complex. If you are flying directly above your target, you don't really need much smartness in your weaponry for it to hit.

[@MRPandoraHartDR]

They didn't have a smart bomb but they did have the bouncing bomb. :-)

[@blackeyedturtle]

The main thing I find extraordinarily disturbing, is people think nothing of offhandedly macro-criticizing Israel, placing their every action or combatant to civilian death toll as means to undermine the IDF and Jews in general. While saying absolutely nothing about Hamas, and support the majority of the Palestinian population has for intentionally targeting innocent civilians, and celebrating the tortuous death of babies, women, the elderly and infirm. I have watched these types of programs ad nauseum, and the atrocities, statements, sentiments of Palestinian leaders and civilians is never the topic of discussion. The Iranian/Islamofascist narrative strategy of keeping the focus on Israel alone, has proven and continues to be very effective, and continues to be one even the supporters of Israel feel compelled to observe.

[@chrisjones658]

Tbf plenty of people have pointed this out. It just falls on deaf ears and the other side gets to score cheap points with the plebs who suck this shit by inserting what-aboutism buzzwords back at you. It's just not said because it's not good in debates to bring it up because it's so easy to obfuscate with BS.

[@AtTheEast18]

Question: What should israel have done?. Destiny: Briahna is not even a good representative from the pro israeli side. To be fair to Briahna, Finkelstein couldn't even answer the question as well. So that kinda shows you the quality of minds in that camp.

[@ECKohns]

They’ll never admit this, but the real answer is: They don’t want Israel to respond at all. They rooted for Hamas invading Israel on October 7th and they want Hamas to take over and destroy all of Israel.

[@adamr5031]

Le sigh, trying to put morality on War which as a concept and in action is amoral. When you get one or more parties that engage in War, you turn that word into an acronym: "we are right". When you engage in war, you have tacitly agreed to the most horrific outcomes, pretending the war equals anything but death is nonsensical. If you start something that results in war and then engage in anything but actual meaningful peace talks, or reject every peace offer made, then you have made your position clear. Purposefully involving your citizens as a means of defense by integrating your military operations into the urban environment means you are not playing out of the same deck as those that value civilian life and the move itself (citizens as a defense) reveals the intent of the offending party. Namely the intent is to use your own values against you while simultaneously making mock of those values.

[@ezragoldberg3132]

I went straight to the Segment/Timecode named "MEOW"

[@VestinVestin]

I think the cat won the debate. Destiny went straight to ad hominem.

[@Scardor]

It's always interesting to me when people have a thing they're talking about for months, but then they cannot pronounce a word like Israel.

[@sutulj]

If I'll see another white American woman trying to say Gaza like a native, nearly coughing up a loogie... Ruhaaaaza 🤢

[@gregorthegrey]

Wait.. isn’t Destiny a girls name?

[@drockopotamus1]

@Roniixx-hp8lc Hold on, though. Isn't that a girl's name?

[@kyledelsan7024]

I love destiny. probably the most based woman, more based than that woman Hasan piker

[@RanEncounter]

​​@Roniixx-hp8lc But is it a girls name or not?

[@gregorthegrey]

@Roniixx-hp8lc are you trying to kiss? I’m getting a strong vibe you wanna kiss

[@Toanleigh]

And? Still Best Girl if true. ;)

[@aelfgernon7729]

Positive things Israel could do: 1. Stop settlements, they are both outsourcing their countries cost of living problems and jockeying for position to gain more territory, either through annexation or when an eventual peace deal is made. It's very hard to feel like your partner for peace is being honest when they are jockeying like this. 2. Have a standing peace deal on the table that is somewhat reasonable. Maybe start with one of the historical peace deals. Don't deviate too much from it so that your deal is somewhat palletable to the other side, and have that as a standing deal. Have it be where If the other side gave all of it, you would accept that deal any day and twice on sabbath. And also be willing to negotiate from there. What Palestinians can do: 1. Recognize that you aren't in a position to bargain for anything close to "from the river to the sea" and adjust your desires downward. 2. Eliminate corruption and BUILD! Just because you can't get everything you want doesn't mean you can't create a radiant and great country. If all the aid that has gone into Palestine over the years had gone into infrastructure and improving the lives of the people, rather than lining the pockets of various people in charge, they could be a shining beacon in the region. 3. Also have a realistic standing deal like I outlined above for Israel. And be willing to negotiate from there.

[@daves465]

So let me chime in on this. Regarding the Israeli requirements: 1. The settlements are not an obstacle to peace. The Palestinians know that just like Israel withdrew settlements from Gaza and the Sinai, the settlements in the WB will also be removed. But to be honest, I think that building new settlements should be punishment for acts of terror. Every time you resort to violence, you lose some land. This is the only thing that will pressure the Palestinians to come to the negotiating table. They do not cherish life, they write off all their deaths as martyrdom. The only thing they hold highly is land and honor. The entire western world should back Israel up on this issue, but as long as they know that the 67 boarders are always on the table, they have nothing to lose, only to gain. 2. Why should Israel endure terror attacks and be expected to have the same peace deal on the table? Every time you refuse a deal, and resort to terror then the deal is off the table, and the next deal will not be as good as the previous one. As long as the Palestinians know that the same deal will be offered them no matter what, they are in no hurry to sign the dotted line. Regarding the Palestinian requirements I'd add: 4. Chill the F out. Start building a better future for your children instead of indoctrinating them to hate. 5. Forget about the right of return. In the future Palestinian refugees will have the right to immigrate to the modern Palestine, not Israel. I find it outrageous that they demand a right of return for all the refugees to their ancestral home in Israel, but reject any presence of Jewish people in Palestine, even though there are towns and villages in the future Palestine that have had Jewish presence there for hundreds of years, like Hebron, east Jerusalem, and even Gaza. To demand Israel to absorb all these Palestinian refugees while you are not willing to absorb a single Jew is preposterous.

[@ChampFergus0n]

Has anyone checked BJG’s basement to see if she’s hiding some of the hostages down there?