Shin Megami Tensei V: Vengeance is Almost Great

[@Darkcelestrian]

I like how we saw tao disintegrate into magatsuhi but somehow is lying on the floor when her powers start improving

[@itsmisstwister]

Glad to see some real SMTVV discussion finally starting to come out. I agree with a lot, disagree with a lot - but I really want to comment on your assertion that the fact things like Tao's (first) death aren't explicitly explained is a flaw. I wrote something less structured and disliked it, so I'd like to give you my point-by-point thoughts on why that specific example is better off for how it was handled. Also note I watched this hours ago, so I might be retreading some of your grounds - if that's the case, apologies. 1. Why was Lilith even there? Well, the school segment follows the Lilith dream and Naamah's attack on the subway station - we don't know the full motive behind the Qadistu at this point, but we certainly know they're seeking Magatsuhi. Them capitalising off Lahmu's mess at the school is sensible. 2. Tao's whole "if you want revenge, I'll help you get it" divergence - given what we learn about Tao in the school segment, and how it actually plays out in practice, I don't think her threatening the bullies is particularly uncharacteristic. Tao's whole arc (as a human) in Vengeance is about her trying to reconcile her sentimentality and optimism with the genuine merits of Yoko's more cynical and pragmatic worldview - this is the first we see of that. I feel it's quite clear Tao has no intention of actually killing the bullies: she does it for the spectacle. She cuts herself while making her big sentimental speech to Sahori, and ends it with a plea that she not abandon her. Immediately after that, she drops the glass and starts crying. The intent is clear: she's trying to shock her into some reflection on how insane the situation at hand has gotten. Is it a bit awkward? Yes, but it's clearly signposted: she and Yoko even have a dialogue right outside the classroom about what was said on the roof. 3. But why does Tao have to die here? Well, that relates to four - giving her a motive that can span the rest of the game - but let's reframe it: why does Lilith kill her and Sahori, at this particular moment, without having revealed her presence beforehand? She says this is for gathering Magatsuhi: given point 1, I feel this is justification enough for doing so for a blind player, but I don't think that's the full story. We know Yoko, as their collaborator, is under fairly close watch by the Qadistu throughout much of the game: the killing immediately follows Yoko acknowledging her respect for Tao's altruism and courage, and the two of them accepting one another as equals. This is likely a relative first for Yoko: it's cheesy, yes, but the text of the game makes it clear that her friendship with Tao and the Nahobino is what - and come the Government Building sequence, Lilith has to (seemingly) kill both of her friends, give a big speech in an attempt to re-radicalise her, and enter/possess/influence her Lahmu-style (red eyes again) to get Yoko to recommit herself to her role in the Qadistu's plan. If Yoko were to be tempered by the sentimentality of another "saint", that would throw a wrench in their whole "destroy the entire planet without remorse" plan that's on the brink of fruition. We see how shocked Yoko is when this happens: the girl has highly obvious body language at all times, so it's clear she wasn't counting on it. Yes, a lot of this isn't going to be apparent to a blind player, as it hinges on all the Mysteries the game keeps sealed (for far too long) regarding Yoko's character: but I find it very intuitive to put back together in retrospect, and the simple explanation is decent enough for when it happens. 4. So, what about her resurrection, and the prophecy delivered to her during it? I feel obligated to point out that the equivalent scene is far, far more barebones in Creation - it sucks there, I think. But the way I see it is as a more direct intervention by the Great Will (or whatever other divine force enforces Creation through the goddesses) in response to Yoko and the Qadistu. Tao's the '''law''' rep here, but in Creation, she lacks motive (and ends up losing her personality entirely). Vengeance doesn't alter the base of her character much to make her more active in the narrative: all it does is make her people-pleasing and saviour complex the crux of her personality and philosophy. Tao receiving vague prophecies as a human is nothing new; hell, it's one of the first things we learn about her in both routes. The specifics won't be obvious to a blind player, but they know that much and that she is a "saint": that's certainly vague enough to justify a resurrection. The purpose Sahori's death and Tao's resurrection serve at this point in the story is to give the latter a carrot on a stick to make her involve herself directly with the events of the rest of the game: Tao isn't looking to 'uphold' YHVH's order like Dazai is, but her main point of contrast in regards to Yoko is her desire to preserve and perfect the world as is. This is desirable to the Great Will, as it refrains rocking the boat and undermining universal laws in the way destroying the throne or resetting the universe might: and the latter is a very real possibility, what with Yoko running around free. Tao's eyes glow the same blue as her Panagia form after she gets up and says her whole "I have to save everyone" thing. In retrospect, that clearly signifies that the forces that control her as a Goddess of Creation have already taken root in her, just as Yoko (unbeknownst to the player) is already working for the Qadistu - this scene is vital to setting up her role as a contrasting rep. The thing with all these points is that they don't necessarily make that scene peak fiction - among mainline, Vengeance sits right next to Apocalypse when it comes to its sentimentality and "anime" dramatic stylings. But I couldn't help but notice you reiterated your dissatisfaction with things which seemed to you like non sequiturs or unexplained Happenings several times throughout your critique. Some of these are fair. Dazai's character has a thematic purpose here - when the whole cast besides him acknowledges YHVH's order is awful explicitly halfway through the second area, you can't really have a sensible traditional law option, and making the character who represents allegiance to the status quo go through a power corrupts thing is sensible. It still sucks, though, because they do even less to earn it than is done in Creation! The narrative falling apart in Taito is something I also agree with: I have my suspicions the endgame was really rushed in production, actually. But the explanations I offered here are things I just intuited throughout my playthrough. I don't think the writing would be any better off for having direct exposition on every point you mentioned: mainline already lacks subtlety, so the last thing I'd want is more dry dialogue and the ironing out of subtext entirely, personally. (Yes, this is a long and belabored point regarding a single contention which I'm sure is pointing out the obvious at times. Please understand that I enjoyed your analysis enough to spend the time writing this in response.)

[@ChrisStoneinator]

holy fuck

[@breadandm5007]

awesome video! i agree with you a lot on the story; i’ve been wanting to make a video going over what i’d change about it but my editing skills and art are… poor to say the least, so that’s just gonna fester in my head for now i was surprised to see you not like Yoko, since i felt her cynicism and “edge” served to give the story actual stakes and disagreement, albeit in a very hamfisted way (i do love a little edge from time to time tho)

[@olly_lmao]

something important with the eisheth and miyazu scene - eisheth nulls fire, and it shows that she nulled it. it also shows khonsu showing up to actually free miyazu. it would be neat if this had any later use in the narrative

[@livingdoubt54]

@@olly_lmao now thats insane attention to detail

[@goleh4044]

Shakan's theme is so underrated, specially knowing that it was made to be sympathetic with the player processing grief and loss of the events that happened before it.

[@waifu27]

I think Dazai's transformation was done ok in vengence. Not only cus he was transformed by an angel who was already portrayed as morally questionable, but also can be seen as how christianity can be brainwashing since he was given power by an angel in general. Though I do think Dazai saying "mastema has opened my eyes" or something like that wouldn't hurt either I think Abdiel and Dazai could've been great tools to show how law isn't the "right choice", but instead they died and Tao becomes the main law rep at the end and she's obviously like, good

[@livingdoubt54]

my issue is that mastema did the same thing in strange journey with zelenin. the difference here tho is that we get to see zelenin be gradually be consumed by her new found powers. in vengeance it is literally just good guy one scene, bad guy the very next, theres no build up to it

[@ethicalapemen3686]

@@livingdoubt54 I just got done watching your video. I liked the vengeance story way better than creation, and I didn't take *too* much issue yeah, but hearing your perspective was refreshing. I think that both stories could've done with taking a page from Final Fantasy IX's book, specifically Active Time Events where you can actually WITNESS events that otherwise happen offscreen which take place at the same time as events in the main campaign. Having a Theater Mode where you can view all of these cutscenes plus the campaign's scenes would've gone a long way towards rectifying that issue.

[@gottesurteil3201]

Ah yes, Christianity, with the unique and exclusive ability to brainwash people.

[@floop1662]

Great video, you're like the first SMT V: V review that actually talks about the story in-depth. My thoughts closely resemble yours on the story, although Yoko is not that bad like she dips into 9th grade philosophy sometimes but I loved the way Tao and her changed each other. While the story is undoubtedly an improvement over CoC, it could definitely have been handled better. I understand that having a neutral usually makes the moral choice between Law and Chaos moot but c'mon you cannot tell me an ending where you convince both Yoko and Tao to chill and compromise on the need for massive systemic change while also not letting everyone die and start from zero would not have been supremely satisfying.

[@-.-Infinity-.-]

Great Video, felt really professional. I hope you make more content like this

[@Thatonenigqa]

This was a great, insightful (entertaining even ) video good job 👏🏾

[@wockguy133]

in my first play though of the game i skipped over yuzurus monologue over the director and it made that fusion scene so much more impactful

[@bluemori2822]

I share a lot of the same thoughts regarding the story. It has the framework for something pretty good but stumbles hilariously at very important points

[@WatiSaurus]

nice vid david! i haven’t played SMTV yet, so i have no opinion. you did give me great insight on it though, so thank you

[@FieryAnubis]

To me, it was actually great. It fixed like, every issue I had with base SMTV, added Canon of Vengance which added a lot of good stuff to the plot, and it even adds the non-plot stuff into Canon of Creation (the original route), essentially making the original Switch version obsolete. This way it really feels like a worthy successor to Nocturne imo. It doesn't need to be as tough as that game can be to be enjoyable if you ask me, so yeah. It pretty much made me give SMTV another go and from feeling let down with the original Switch release, it actually changed my mind completely and it's now one of my favorite entries in the series.

[@bunnyallii]

loved this video david :) it was nice hearing your opinion and I loved the way you edited and structured everything!

[@dc7981]

I actually don’t mind smt5s buffs system. Buffs were pretty mindless in older games, slap em on throw on charge/concentrate and delete every enemy and boss in the game in like 4 turns max…. Every game is like this especially 4 and sj where enemy hp is weirdly low. People take issue with the slower pace of 5 but that’s an aspect I actually like about it, you actually have make strategies beyond just dropping a big nuke and not having to worry about what the boss can do

[@livingdoubt54]

@@dc7981 my problem isnt that theyre temporary, my problem is theyre temporary in a game with mp costs this high

[@ephemeralbro]

​@@livingdoubt54it's only really a problem with luster candy and debilitate imo. Those should automatically have 1-2 more turns to offset the high MP

[@dave9515]

@@ephemeralbro Extra turns wouldn't offset that against a boss with dekaja/dekunda.

[@TherioRoss]

@@livingdoubt54 gotta disagree in the sense that I feel the high MP costs actually cause a gameplay phenomenon to more naturally emerge that older entries barely even dabbled in, which is the ability to toolbox your whole party with your stock thanks to the same switching system that was employed in apocalypse (and 4? don't remember tbh). buffs being a temporary thing is a change that made me feel like i needed to more carefully consider not just my mc+3, but rather the whole stock of demons to try and maintain uptime rather than just making sure my mp pool can generally sustain +4 and -4 and calling it a day (or +2~3 and -2~3 in cases where the AI is scripted to dekunda/dekaja at +4/-4). it is definitely a matter of preference, but i found that 5's system generally leads to more dynamic fights employing a whole slew of demons in a single fight if you're willing to put in the effort

[@NakiKyoku]

goated video. smt v v is my new favorite smt. id even say its my favorite jrpg but I agree story wise and narrative pales in compassion to IV. also atmosphere wise, while still really good I think nocturne beats it

[@livingdoubt54]

okay so im getting a lot of comments about this so i just want to address it: I KNOW it was mastema who caused dazais corruption. my problem is that we dont get to see what happens in between him getting his new powers and him killing yuzuru. so everything just feels out of nowhere since theres no build up.

[@alsaiduq4363]

It's the same issue with the original game. You can understand and maybe even connect the dots to know how Dazai went from Insecurity mess to lunatic. But still too sudden and still happens off-screen. Compared to something like Keisuke from Devil survivor. You learn on why he's crazy about justice from his backstory dealing with bully and feeling of betryal, his feeling towards Midori and once people turn on her , Keisuke going from peaceful kid thats earns for justice to Justice Freak make sense. Dazai setup and development is well done , but the transformation ends up feeling top sudden.

[@Andy-sj4ip]

Great vid and review honestly. Personally this game had a story I really liked overall and Iove the cast despite the criticism. The biggest takeaway for me is how much I ended up liking the alignment reps in route, rarely I have been this compelled and torn between the ideals of the reps in mainline, really sympathetic view and both law and chaos and easily among my favorite reps in the whole franchise, something I cant really say about something like SMT4 despite thinking the story was cool its just that I found myself unappealed by how the reps came to their final solution and what those solutions are it left a really bad taste in my mouth about the whole thing personally

[@Andy-sj4ip]

And NO NEUTRAL THANK GOD

[@cloverraven]

Vengeance is a massive upgrade. My heart is so full.

[@федяконовальцев]

I like that during the khonsu fight Dazai is the one to convince yuzuru not to listen to the demons, showing his radical nature and SOMEWHAT foreshadowing his edgelord phase

[@Kamino.Shimobe]

I will say, this video is pretty good. As someone who enjoyed smt v despite its flaws, I think it was still a decent game for me, however the story did leave a lot to be desired. Vengeance I felt was better, and my absolute highlights in the game was the Yuzuru fight, the aogami sacrifice, and the mastema moments. The music was good, however the game did feel "empty" after the big long cutscene of the summoning of Tiamat. I will say that the changes in the demon haunt music as well as battle theme changes after fusing with Tsukiyomi was really good and this game had a lot of good moments and steps in the right direction. At this point I feel like atlus has been trying to captivate more of it's persona audience with the direction the games go in storywise, but I think they should revisit a lot of the philosophies of older games. Great video but I still think vengeance is a good game. However this game def makes me wanna just replay strange journey.

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

I have some issues with the plot like how the Quadistu should have had more scenes and interactions with each other (lilith doesn't talk to her fellow girl bosses once), Naho Murakumoing Tiamat felt super anime even for a persona game, Tsukuyomi being a proto fiend is a retcon im pretty sure, Miyazus rant on Koshi/Tsukuyomi shouldn't have been a side quest, Sahori is still mid. But at the same time theres still a lot here that I do still like. Atsutas an actual character now, Tao is an actual character now, and I really enjoy Yoko and Taos dynamic even if most of they're interactions are missable behind side quests, Yokos the first atlus enhanced edition girl I didn't hate, dropping Neutral for once is an interesting idea, I really like the endings with Law being the first Law ending that didn't suck even if it doesn't really feel like a law ending and Chaos being a better version of the White even if the adam/eve romance stuff is kinda goofy. Its probably the most 50/50 story ive experienced in a long ass time for everything I didn't like there was something there that I did

[@livingdoubt54]

@@MILDMONSTER1234 thats so true i didnt even think about that. the qadistu shouldve interacted with each other way more

[@leixalkvinay2729]

I think people did theorize on Tsukuyomi being a proto friend, due to some npcs and how he is the only demon to apear human with 0 powers or even a demon form, plus both Tsukuyomi and Aogami look identical.

[@sociallyawkard5675]

The japanese exclusive artbook for og calls him a protofiend​@@leixalkvinay2729

[@noway7774]

Tsukiyomi being a proto fiend definitely isn't a retcon, the green tube in the lab representing the Tsukiyomi and Ametarasu type have always existed since the og game, they were just never explained until CoV

[@sociallyawkard5675]

@@noway7774 the artbook exclusive to japan for og actually directly stated he was a proto fiend

[@TheSwordsman100]

I have some answers but they just to lead to more questions. Tao: Each time Tao died she was resurrected straight up by the Great Will/Axiom/God himself (not one of his avatars like the "Creator") to make sure that world would have a chance a renewal via the Mandala System since Yoko sided with Chaos. (Doing this with Tao specifically is heavily implied to be the reason Japan can't resurrect Amaterasu according to a sidequest) Yoko: That thing that she stole while you fought Abidel was her sealed away throne goddess powers that she lost when she was imprisoned originally. Dazi: The changes to Dazi anger me so much, back in his version of Law he just wanted to beat his friend, not kill him and as Mastma later reveals he KNOWS that actual God isn't against the progtag and Tao recreating the world but hes the only difference and thus the nail that could make Dazi go more crazy. Like seriously Dazi could've just joined team Tao and nothing would change but no we have to make him fully evil and kill him off despite that clashing with the Canon of Creation. Mastema: Is apparently able to control Tiamat because as was told to you in a blink and you'll miss it lore dump he can command demons. As for the Law bias, I don't mind at all. Chaos (like in Nocturne's TDE) and especially Neutral normally tends to get the love from Atlus. Like SMT2 is the only other game where Law has a focus and that is with the caveat that it spends most of the time fighting itself.

[@Kelpie9423]

I did not play the original release but I've absolutely loved SMTV:V. Definitely not perfect but there is so much to get lost in with it. The story is good in my opinion and kept me engaged enough to get invested in what was happening. The gameplay is the best SMT has ever been imo and the exploration is a huge highlight for me. I have very little complaints like the dungeons are pretty mid but there are so few that I don't even care.

[@shinyanakagawa8241]

I still don't get why people always wanted Sahori to be something or someone super crucial to the story. She is not and she wasn't meant to be, even back in the vanilla game. She is just a plot device or may I say, MacGuffin to move the plot forward.

[@narukamizanagi8645]

When you compared the story of Vengeance as prison slop to smt4a and the Creation route as dogshit I laughed so fucking hard LOL Also wanted to compliment the great production quality and analysis dude

[@alsaiduq4363]

Its quite refreshing to see a critical yet fair review on SMTV. I hope people don't go around sharing your video as some "i hate smtv because i hate having fun" because it's quite good on how you explains your issues with the game. But you clearly enjoyed a lot of it still.

[@Megs813]

Great vid! I agree with alot that you said. Vengeance is definitely an improvement over the original. I loved the combat and demon haunt was my favorite addition to the game. The story wasn't perfect it has some flaws but at least I somewhat cared about the characters this time.

[@YungTimeWeaver]

Overall a huge improvement gameplay and storywise. While I didn’t agree with all your story takes I do agree It kinda drops the ball towards the end. Aogami should’ve stayed dead imo. And I wish there was a new neutral ending. But other than that I’m glad the game got a second chance.

[@jamesr5909]

I personally really liked all of the Tao and Yoko conversations during all the side quests and the main story, and that was honestly my favorite part of the whole game. The story just really fell off after Tiamat was summoned and Yoko dipped because she was my favorite character and for some reason isnt there at all for the second half of the game even though she’s the chaos rep. Other than that the game was really good and great video.

[@dave9515]

I agree honestly with a lot of what you said. I don't think Dazai is written badly in COC though cause we see how his lust for power can change him like when in Chiyoda how he chalks up his survival all to Abdiel and he never feels mentally insane per say at the end of the route and is much more understandable in viewpoint that Tsukuyomi. I also dislike the buff changes and i don't think the new additions can make up for it and status effects are worthless in Vengeance even so a large portion of demons kind of suck and the balance between roles is severely lopsided. Now for story i think the end portion of Yakumo, Dazai and Koshimizu playing buddy buddy to have you side with them was a cool touch in COC. I think both sides have something the other lacks and vice versa. I don't think Tao was out of character either but i guess its hard to understand overall since her character arc is so short. I think the miyazu arc sucks personally so it being side content is fine but the yakumo thing and Miyazu moment is a result of a style atlus has been pushing with storytelling from persona that modern JRPG's are also starting to do with the success of persona social links system and so it sadly infected SMT.

[@louisadams5713]

Yeah the last third of the story really dropped the ball,especially the endings.

[@Gunzerkingidiot]

All story writing goes to the golden goose of Persona

[@Junpeidaman190]

Uh, persona 5 is poorly written

[@ddrxmanpkmaster4988]

​@@Junpeidaman190 if you truly think Persona 5, especially Royal has poor writing. I dread what you think of SMT5, cause it's writing is generally horrendous on a whole other scale

[@bunnyallii]

also I forgot to mention I liked the ending with jami🔥🔥🔥

[@wodensthrone5215]

I played the new route on my Series X, I'll probably new game plus the original story route some other time.

[@Maxshark999]

havent finished the video yet but so far the only thing i disagree on is the level disparity penalties. Almost every single RPG including persona and smt penalize you for being way below and even above enemies levels. you deal less damage and take more, or if you're way above you get the benefit of dealing more damage and taking less. some games take it a step further and make it so you get reduced amounts of exp and money for killing enemies much weaker than you (like you're 5+ levels higher than them. whatever level difference causes the enemy to run rather than fight = reduced rewards). But i do agree that base SMT5 handled it like dog shit where just a simple 1-3 level difference can either make the fights bullshit or baby mode and that was something specific to smt5 and i have no clue why they thought it was a good idea lol. vengeance absolutely made it much better where even being 10 levels over a boss can still result in you getting your shit kicked in.

[@eddymetal]

7:40 you do know this is super common in the series, right? Nocturne definitely had this too. This was my biggest gripe in the original SMT5, so I’m glad it’s fixed now. But people acting like this is a random out of nowhere design decision is so odd to me. It’s not just you; I’ve seen this type of thing everywhere. Dazai’s transformation makes sense just fine in COV. Corrupting humans is Mastema’s bread and butter. SMT4A’s main endings weren’t law and chaos, but isolationism/individual extremism vs cooperation. They’re both “neutral” on the law/chaos spectrum. Vengeance is great. It’s still lacking on the story, but is a vast improvement over the original - which is all I really wanted. Expecting each entry in a series like this to have the best everything is setting yourself up for disappointment. Never played SMT1, but of all the mainline games I’ve played: SMT2: Best story, best characters - the themes are some of the most grounded and relevant I’ve seen in any game Nocturne: Best replayability, best level design, most satisfying secrets/unlockables SMT4: Great narrative - one of my favorite twists in games. Best setting. SMT4A: for people into religious scholarship, has the best “flavor” on the topic. Best sense of scale. Great combat. SMT5V: Best team building mechanics, great combat, great visuals, best compendium. The games all excel in different ways.

[@livingdoubt54]

@@eddymetal the problem with the level scaling in 5 is its more severe than in past games due to the bosses being spongier, thats why its brought up more. the 4A comparison was just that it only has two endings. i never said peace and anarchy were law and chaos. which is why i reluctantly said "second time, i guess." i dont think its too much to ask for this game to have a great everything when the past games did.

[@eddymetal]

⁠​​⁠​⁠There’s no issue with bringing up the level scaling. Imo, it’s miserable design. What I find odd is that in the same paragraph you criticize this in SMT5V, you praise Nocturne while neglecting to mention that game had the same exact thing. I haven’t looked up numbers or anything, but outside of the new COV superboss the bosses typically felt tankier in Nocturne. Regardless, it’s shit in both games. I misunderstood what you were saying on 4A there, my bad. No game in the series has been the best at everything. So your expectation seems super random. To each his own, but like I said: you’re just setting yourself up for disappointment.

[@rpgfanatic9719]

I don't know what you mean by super common, 4 definitely did not have this and 1 barely had any levels involved so I doubt it's even a consistent thing in the series as you say it is, just saying smt 3 has it just proves smt 3 is trash and so what does that have to do with 5? 5 is a modern game with supposed updated mechanics like 4, not hot garbage outdated trash like this and removing the ranged element, swapping whispers for garbage essences, removing equippable gear, literally 4 is better and more mechanically complex in every way and it's beyond unacceptable that it remains this way. At this point if they just made 4 and 4F as a complete 2 packaged game with updated graphics I wouldn't be upset, that is how bad 5 is. What are you even talking about with saying 5 has the best compendium? Smt 4 has 400 some odd monsters and vengeance has 276. Smt 5 is pulling a Pokemon sword and shield and none of this is getting addressed, this game should be completely boycotted, but it wasn't so now here we are with 5 being rereleased with barely any changes or updates that 4 had.

[@eddymetal]

@@rpgfanatic9719 Meant super common in Megaten as a whole (at least out of the games I've played). I'm not sure about the 4 duology (I didn't notice this in those games, but they were my first mainline games - so I didn't have much to compare those to when I played them). It's also in Devil Survivor 1 and 2, and Digital Devil Saga 1 and 2. Not sure why you seem so agitated. The dude made a comparison between 5 and Nocturne, as did I. They're in the same series, and we're talking about game design. That's what it has to do with 5. Not sure how that evaded your understanding. Maybe if you were to take a deep breath and relax, you'd find basic concepts easier to grasp. 4 has its points of complexity, and points of simplicity. I'd say that the demons' stat distribution is oversimplified and bad. Quality over quantity is what I'm talking about. One of the positive points I left out of 4 though were the demon designs. People whine about all the guest artists, but I actually think all the different talent involved was to the game’s benefit. If not mechanically diverse, they certainly were aesthetically diverse. 400+ 2D sprites and 200+ 3D models are certainly not the same - another simple fact you should consider after some deep breaths. Dexit wasn't the real problem with Sword and Shield. I'm old af, so I was around for the original dexit (gen3). Something like the 8th gen dexit was an inevitability. The real issue was Game Freak straight up lying to fans about the reasons for the dex omissions. And as far as I've seen, while Atlus has reprehensible business practices, they haven't lied about Vengeance at all.

[@thelettucebarrel7784]

@@rpgfanatic9719Bro came out the gate swinging, my god.

[@goobertgum]

cool video lokifula

[@benkai343434]

Considering every single game prior to this has been biased towards nootral or kayos, it's a good thing we finally have the Law-game that we all deserve. Lawchads stay winning, Chaoscels eternally seething. 'BBUT I WANT TO BE TEMPTED BY THE DEMONS' no.

[@antichton1926]

I don’t think it’s bad that Aogami returns. Tsukuyomi explicitly states that with his Knowledge gone, it is impossible that he can remake the world. Aogami returning is the only way that he could remake the world for the ending, as Susano’o is conflated with the bull god. I do agree with the latter ends of the game being a bit shaky, but I find that criticism a bit disingenuous. Tao coming back twice is still legitimately awful, I will always concede that.

[@akira2988]

Even so, the protagonist became Nahobino again and still had the opportunity to recreate the world. There is no part of the game that says that the protagonist could not create the new world with Tsukuyomi, even the sidequest where you obtain his essence he supports you in that you have to take the throne with him, otherwise there were no reason for him to be at the Empyream. If he couldn't, he would have defeated Tiamat in a different place or prioritize reviving Aogami with something taken from the whole Proto-Fiend to return to being the Susano Nahobino. There's nothing in the story that tells you they (the protagonist and Tsukuyomi) can't, and I feel like if they wanted Aogami back to complete the bull god vs snake theme, they had to plan the Aogami reviving differently and less rushed.

[@gottesurteil3201]

They fixed about anything else but they couldn't be asked to fix the law route character.

[@zeropierre4662]

I love this game but fuck man they really dropped the fucking ball on this one, Persona would never have came out like this, I don't think Atlus really cares about Smt anymore.

[@MILDMONSTER1234]

The persona team and smt team are two different groups lol

[@Junpeidaman190]

@@MILDMONSTER1234 and Bro is overreacting. The game is fucking incredible and the story is actually decent imo

[@zeropierre4662]

@@MILDMONSTER1234 Same for Mario and Zelda at Nintendo, not sure why you think I said otherwise.

[@zeropierre4662]

@@Junpeidaman190 Not the game itself but that fact I bought this game twice for the real thing, you wouldn't understand unless you played both.

[@Junpeidaman190]

@@zeropierre4662 uh, i played both, i bought SMT V vanilla on day one

[@MuntoRickDiaz]

Makes me glad that I did not play the vanila version. Going through vengeance route right now and I am enjoying it a lot.

[@seth7726]

If I was given a dollar every time I get to rant about SMT Vanilla... I'd have at least enough to get me a nice meal lol. Now seriously I just hated the original release bc it was my most anticipated game back in 2020 (or 2021? I can't really remember since it was such a big disappointment). For starters, I'll always take the opportunity to shit on that lvl scaling feature. I'm with you, that stupid ass mechanic goes against the game philosophy of the entire franchise. I couldn't fathom how it came to be, let alone make it to the most recent mainline game which was marketed as a celebration of the 25th anniversary of the SMT franchise. Stats didn't matter, level has such an omnipresent pressure above anything else in that game and you couldn't so anything about it. I hated it the most when people said "what? I didn't notice such a thing" like dude, did we play the same game?! Party comp? Strategy? Nothing like that matters if you are a few levels behind an enemy. Bosses were either literal damage sponges or piss easy if you were a few levels above them. Going for the secret neutral ending ruined the boss since you had to grind to have an opportunity against Shiva and after that true Lucifer didnt stand a chance vs lvl +90 Nahobino... God, I hope lvl scaling never ever gets to ruin another game. Vengeance toned it down just enough so I was can now confidently say I do like the gameplay. Now onto the story. As everybody and their mom, yep, I think the same about the game dropping the ball after Shakan. It really starts to fall off without the Qadistu being involved anymore and Yoko being nowhere to be seen just makes it worse. I mean, wouldn't she want the 3 keys of whatever in order to be able to enter the empyrean? Also what the hell are the other Bethel reps doing? They just saw big ass Tiamat be released and being a serious threat to every faction yet they keep themselves quietly stationed as I'd nothing happened. At least CoC showed us they do have a common goal about going against the forces of chaos, yet they do not care about the bigger problem Tiamat represents? Funnily enough I liked Beelz inclusion despite feeling kinda out of place/not having any sort of build up prior to his reveal. Vasuki always felt kinda out of place for me so I couldn't care much when he was obliterated by the fly lol. I know he was just a proxy but couldn't they use someone else? I swear I remember a demon in Taito mentioning "Lord Vishnu" and Bethel in the same phrase. I mean, he's already in the game, just give him a role for God's sake... (maybe they didn't want to give Bethel India much power since Shiva is already a big guy for everybody to the point he doesn't even consider going to meet the reps lol) There's so much I want to say about both games, good and bad thing alike, but at least I got my very much needed dose of fun with vengeance and story did enough for me so I'll say it can be a personal 8/10. I don't really like giving games a numerical score but fr Vanilla SMT V was such a disappointment that I almost considered one of my worst experiences of the whole franchises and Vengeance improved it so much. For that, I am very grateful.

[@scottdreemurrthegodofcreation]

It would’ve been completely great if they let you keep the second form

[@dave9515]

Also the level scaling in vengeance isn't that bad. In my first playthrough i was 5-10 levels below recommended and never realized it till i had to fight Yuzuru and couldn't win but even then i could have had i grinded out for some demons looking back and there are low level runs of Vengeance already. I know base 5 level scaling was bad though but only cause of seeing and hearing about it.

[@SFan29]

good video !

[@Lord_KiwIse]

Dude if you do all the quests (more like 9/10) in SMTV the level scaling is in your favor...

[@kagerisu]

I definitely liked vengeance at the beginning but towards the end it kinda got boring with the lack of fully voiced animated cutscenes and a lot of rushed instances, a lot of recycled scenarios from the creation story

[@diordrone0000]

why did you name yourself bladee ecco2k 😭

[@livingdoubt54]

@@diordrone0000 its tradition for me to put something random for my second playthroughs of these games

[@vimomento]

i edge to your videos

[@livingdoubt54]

@@vimomento hi violet :3

[@vimomento]

@@livingdoubt54 hai bestie :3

[@jaffinator2166]

1:46 I partly disagree. They HAD interesting characters. Atlus just, didn’t do anything with them.

[@jaffinator2166]

22:41 It was Mastema. He f#cked with Dazai’s mind to become Vergil early.

[@jaffinator2166]

29:40 I was actually more reminded of Shekinah from SJR.

[@jaffinator2166]

Yeah IMO the only reason to do the Chaos path is because Yoko is a far superior demon to Tao and Mastema isn’t obnoxious to fight like Tehom. Plus his OST goes hard

[@aaroncalloway2898]

Idk man. A lot of whining at the start over grinding. Grinding has always been pretty inherent in JRPS. Hell that's one of the things that a bunch of core audience likes about jrpgs.

[@SasukaRH]

atlus is allergic to good stories nowadays 😭

[@ZefoniusLinestraf]

SMT Games are more about the gameplay and world and atmosphere and some belief and ideals talk and less about characthers i think this is why it always falls on its head when it trys too hard to make compelling characthers and also at the same time making the idology and beliefs stand out together to be cohesive with also the world itself and its inhabitants to also tell a story about your resolve and your choices and your belief and ideals are they the truth or are they just lies we choose to believe or are their no real path or dose it realy matter what we do in the end it all leads to the inevitable and we cant fix what is already destined to be doomed and so theirs no real answer because their is no right or wrong way i think they should focus on asking the questions and less on making other characthers drive your choices and let the world and its inhabitants make you question each side ideals and beliefs and look for your answer to the question and not let others manipulate your answer to this ideas that are being precented okay didnt expect to say this things but oh well

[@ZeroillusionX]

I have a few things that I disagree and agree with, like for example, canon of creation story, well, it sucks balls, the characters are really bad an inconsequential, this much I agree, they couldnt be more vanilla and bland, on vengeance though, they fixed all the characters, while I won't say it was great or that the improvement was amazing, they not only make sense in the story, but they actually mean something, I think tao is probably the worst character in vengeance, but yoko even though she's the atlus obligatory insert girl for the remix, she end up being a great adition, she improve upon the bland characters of the game, and i'm not sure if you pick it up, but both canon of vengeance and canon of creation are interconnected, heavily, I do agree that they throw a lot of shit in vengeance just like in creation, I feel the worse thing they did was the abdiel transformation taking place off screen, that really felt like a kick in the balls not gonna lie, but dazai have the best character development along with atsuta, and no, he didn't just became an asshole for the sake of the plot, although I do agree dazai magically becoming an asshole in the original story was indeed bullshit, not in vengeance though, because yeah, it is not shown, but this is so glaring and so obvious that you literally have to not being paying attention to miss it, and is the fact that mastema is responsible for dazai sudden malicious change, early in the story, there's a piece of information that a lot of people probably miss, and that is that the devil summoner program takes a toll in the mental psyche, so much so that weak minded people start aligning more into demonic matters, you know? like in smt1 and smt2? then you have the cutscene where mastema literally says he's gonna give dazai more power because he is a chosen individual, I honestly don't know how much obvious that needs to be, it's clear mastema is the reason for dazai having a 720 degree change in attitude, also the fact that mastema has an inherit power to control any and all demons, this is something they tell you, but I can see people missing it since it's not a cutscene. Another of the things I don't agree, yoko, again, it should be obvious enough that canon of vengeance exist because yoko exist, at the start of the game, yhvh and probably the goddess of tokyo (could be some other 2 people, but I cant think of anyone else to be talking in there) tell you not to grab the hand of the girl, the girl being yoko, a funny enough, just like with tao, yoko is the opposite to tao, yoko is a goddess of chaos and tao is a goddess of order, one leads to destruction, the other leads to order, although I would agree it is kinda boring, but point is, the passing soul is no other than the messiah, kei amemura, or the protagonist of smtv, I actually like a lot that smtv built upon the fact that other universes exist, and that timelines diverge, if you played other smt games, you will know that yhvh is nothing but an avatar of the great will, the creator of the multiverse, and yhvh is usually place in a universe to test humanity and let them rise to greater things, yoko doesnt exist in smtv original timeline, because she will drive that existence to chaos, unless you stick with tao, the point being, canon of vengeance and creation both coexist and even interact with each other, just how a certain superboss, or superbosses interact with the timelines, and tao was necessary for this, I would still say, in terms of lore, this is by far, the best smt game to date, and not really that far behind in terms of the story, it still have some obvious poorly managed moments, but it was crazy good, although I agree it could be better. The aogami part, it makes sense if im fair with you, because they werent meant to die, they where meant to be absorb, but I will agree that keeping him death seemed like the better play, but you cant deny it was the coolest shit ever to see them fuse again and perform murakumo to bitch slap tiamat, and like I said before, mastema can control demons, so what I agree its kind of an asspull to have him control tiamat, it makes sense lore wise, or at least it was an ass pull until you beat the game reload your save, do his quest and get the superboss, then it makes sense why the fucker can so easily control tiamat, I know there's a lot of missing pieces, but it all makes sense if you really pay attention and play the game, and I understand that information like that shouldn't be hiding under text or specific quest, let alone superbosses. Tldr I disagree and yoko was cool and aogami was cool too

[@livingdoubt54]

i already know mastema gave him the power, my problem is that his corruption isnt gradual like it is with zelenin in strange journey, and we dont get to see what happens in between him getting the powers and his heel turn either. also i didnt find the aogami scene and murakumo to tiamat cool i literally said so in the video

[@YurificationTrademark]

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[@renren47618]

I think that Vengeance has a very mediocre story that it's better than the original's story which is not a high bar by itself. Law is so good and better than Chaos this time that i see no reason for someone to choose Chaos over Law except for sometimes fear of the Marduk thing repeating itself due to Nahobino being corrupted by the Throne, Tao and Yoko are ok but sometimes Yoko is kinda silly with her edginess, everyone else is an improvement from the original but very barebones except for Yuzuru, Abidel is worse than the original, Yakumo/Nuwa are even more irrelevant this time and the story falls off on Taito. The Qadistu lack more screentime and character interaction and you have no reason within the story for the MC to follow Yoko who side with them, Chaos route was rushed and made no sense in the final battle Mastema could've been used better and there were a lot of other missed opportunities, in the end, for someone that was expecting a huge improvement on Vengeance it's a dissapointment. Honestly i feel sad with how much potential SMT has for insane stories using of the alligment system, the religious figures and themes but it's probably one of the JRPG series with the weakest stories out there, i understand that SMT is gameplay focused but i could only wish for a MAINLINE SMT game with a story of similiar quality to Xeno games or even the best SMT spin offs story like DeSu and DDS. I think that the Taito part should've been treated as a big climax of the game, instead of the area being the same as the OG, It would've been overun by dark clouds and a red sky with Magatsuhi flowing on it, demons would've been running around and Bethel would gather all of their forces to fight against Tiamat(this time instead of them betraying each other to become a Nahobino and take the Throne they would unite against the threat of Tiamat), along the way Nahobino would fight against them because they should also kill him due to the events in the Shakan, Vasuki would be found dying before Nahobino found out that he was killed by Beelzebub, then you would fight against him in the same area where you fight him in the game. The alligment split would happen earlier with Nahobino joining with Yoko and be given the mission of defeating Bethel forces, in the Law one, he would join with Tao to beat Tiamat and fight Bethel members along the way basically. In the final battle keep Law's boss fights the same but Aogami would not come back at the end, but you would have a brief moment where Nahobino falls down and Aogami appears talking to him in a spiritual/dream like event to make him try to get back at the fight, Aogami's voice would motivate Nahobino to get up and defeat Tiamat with a flashy anime move like they did in the game but in the Tsukuyomi form. Law ending would require some sort of brainwashing or restriction on Free Will to achieve what Tao wants to do in the end or at least something else that would work as a possible flaw like Lucifer having different dialogue and mentioning that even if the Mandala System is destroyed by consuming his knowledge, by using the throne the chances of the Bull God's will to return are higher but not a given. Meanwhile Chaos would remain the same ending but with Lucifer confirming that Yoko would get rid of Mandala System by doing what she does, the final fights itself would've been different with first fighting goddess Tao, then Mastema which you would beat his normal form but then he would begun to laugh and start speaking about how he can control Tiamat and that your efforts are worthless (in his original lore Mastema is able to control demons so maybe he could allude to that in his speech), you would fight against Tiamat which would fuse with Mastema and give her a different form, in the final scene Yoko and Nahobino would have a flashy team up attack that would destroy Tiamat. I think that while this wouldn't exactly get rid of all my issues with the story, it would've made it way better for SMT standards. Edit: I forgot to mention, you would fight against Dazai and Abdiel as Nahobinos in the CoV instead of it being them on their normal forms Edit 2: I thought about putting the Miyazu thing also on the main game, she would appear as some sort of isabeau on Law/Chaos from IV and try to avenge Yuzuru in the main story but she would end up dead since she would want to kill Koshimizu and you would have to fight against her, maybe she could even appear as a Nahobino with Konshu too which would be great.

[@TheGamernews1]

Yep couldn’t say this better myself. Really disappointed how bias the game towards law and basically being a good ending and doing a piss poor job painting as a moral dilemma. More shocked that how little criticism the VV story getting like virtually zero on KZbin because this is the only video I found so far that’s being critical.

[@CursedShinobiClown]

I thought Yoko was based af tbh