“Shiny Happy People” | Duggars, Pearls, & Bill Gothard Vs. Biblical Patriarchy

[@Baeprints]

It was NOT a few scandals. Every child that was abused was scandalized individually. It took away that female from being able to be the best wife and mother possible. Many priests have participated in abusing girls and boys too. The sin multiplies as it’s covered up.

[@fndrr42]

You think the guy trying to teach a repackaged version of the same thing is going to admit that? 🙃

[@andrewmattiewalter]

Yes agreed! It's only a matter of time before there is a documentary about moscow, Idaho

[@fndrr42]

@@andrewmattiewalter - there is nothing i am more certain of.

[@cosmictreason2242]

@@fndrr42 it’s not the same thing. There is no connection historically or ideologically between these movements

[@spartakos3178]

Sickness is sickness... But a culture that believes in murdering babies and pediatric genital mutilation being upset about abuse is a perfect example of pot meet kettle. Abuse is terrible, I am glad every time a cult gets called out... I wish the cult of Marxism would receive the same attention from mainstream press.

[@mary-janechambers3596]

Had a friendship with a lady and her husband who raised their 13 children with Gothard’s home school program. They kept the “rules” when they were kids but when they grew up only a couple of them showed evidence of salvation. The rules instilled fear in their hearts but didn’t draw them to Christ. They would be afraid of something bad happening to them if they didn’t keep the rules. However if a husband was a serial adulterer the wife couldn’t divorce him. Patriarch didn’t have accountability.

[@cosmictreason2242]

Yeah that’s disordered

[@ArugaPH]

Did Gothards home school program teaches that? Proof?

[@CH-kr2df]

So basically the kids grew up to be like the rest of the secular world. Fearing only consequences but not fearing God. Many are called but few take up the cross.

[@MansterBear]

Yea. I remember reading Doug Wilsons Reforming Marriage and one of the first points that stuck out to me was the authority of the husband isn't just "i get to make the decisions and I'm the boss" but it's the responsibility that comes with that authority. I obviously knew there was a difference between having headship, and abusing authority, but the emphasis he put on responsibility was something that stuck with me and really motivates you to live up to your calling. As someone who is much more in line with Joel's definition of Patriarchal, rather than squishy complimentarianism, I cringe when I hear men quote the "headship/submissive" passages in a "I'm the boss of everyone" type of way.

[@PeterSawyer2626]

Love this channel. Love the content. Didn't realize how much heat your videos drew until I listened to this video live and saw some of the comments in the live chat. I've been blessed by this channel. Keep doing the Lord's work!

[@RightResponseMinistries]

Definitely a lot of heat. Lol.

[@MansterBear]

lol just finished watching it and was reading the chat at the same time and kept wishing I could respond. I saw you and a few other people responding at least. I know I've watched all those interviews, and don't remember hearing him ever say that, and I know it's not in line with his theology anyway. But now I think I'll go listen to them again, just because I do remember enjoying them, and I recommend Rachel's videos and books to my wife

[@pambaker7092]

While I am saddened by the IBLP scandal and demise, in the '90's we homeschooled under ATIA (Bill Gothard's Advanced Training Institute of America, later ATII, which went international). While it didn't work for us because it was too regimented, it introduced us toThe New England Primer and the Westminster Shorter Catechism. We learned a lot there that has stuck with us through the years. Also, at the same time, we had a large group of reformed homeschooling families who were looking at teaching the Trivium, or Classical Christian Education, which was connected to Reformed doctrines. Many of the others who had held Dispensational beliefs (myself included) coming from the '70's, were changing. Thank you for your teaching. Some of these are difficult doctrines, I know, but they need to be taught. We need to hear them. Changing my beliefs from Dispensational to Reformed has completely changed my understanding of who God is and has put him truly on the throne of my life, and not just because of a choice I made.

[@TheMaineSurveyor]

*Biblical patriarchy* We have to be careful about putting the word biblical in front of our pet concepts. We all think we are biblical. You can simply say that you subscribe to patriarchy, state a few verses where you are getting that from, and let the hearer search the Scriptures to see if these things are so. I'm a patriarch. And my wife is a matriarch. I know this because of Exodus 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother" and Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Beware of getting caught up in talking about authority. If you feel the need to constantly talk about authority of husbands and fathers and male headship, and are also constantly reminding wives and daughters to submit, you might have an unhealthy authority fixation. People preoccupied with authority are not to be trusted.

[@andrewmattiewalter]

Amen!

[@NNaadah]

Agree, I stumbled across this subject kind of on accident. (Started with research on transgenderism. - What a flip ehh!) I'd originally run into these teachings when my son was little. I just didn't know exactly what it was / didn't have a "name for it" until now.

[@chrisgillespie4455]

Understand your point, but it makes sense when contrasting wrong viewpoints. We are to preach the word with authority. If we start with a disclaimer that “this may or may not be biblical” then we strip our preaching of that authority. The scripture is clear that not many should become teachers, as they will be judged to a higher standard. The teacher must teach with authority as they are convinced about the word. This is why we are all called to study the word to show ourselves approved. We are to discern what is being taught.

[@TheMaineSurveyor]

@@chrisgillespie4455 Sure, but I never suggested starting with a disclaimer; that was all you. Preaching and teaching with authority does not mean having to add words to make it sound like the speaker knows what he's talking about. Indeed, needless modifiers might have the opposite effect at times. And even if someone teaches with authority, the hearer still has the opportunity to search the Scriptures and see if these things are so.

[@joegriffith810]

As a father of 9, with the wife of my youth, and lives in NW Arkansas and spent time at the Duggars home, I appreciate this. Subscription earned brother.

[@davidfayfield6594]

When you say wife of your youth, are you saying you got married as a 16 year old ?

[@jackjones3657]

On this June 6, 79th remembrance of D-Day I Thank GOD for faithful God-fearing Church leaders who honor the sacrifices of those who have paid the price with their lives for what America has historically largely held as it's foundation, that is The Holy Bible and Christian Truth. Keep up the good work!

[@beaulin5628]

Having free will to choose does not mean a person is contributing to their salvation in any way. It means that when a person realizes their true condition before God, that their sentence to destruction is real, that they could sink into hell any day and can do NOTHING to prevent this they cry out to God, "Save me!" The one who cared nothing about God, lived in rebellion and even blasphemed God's name now WANTS to be saved when before he did not. A drowning man who cries out for someone to save him is helpless to save himself and he knows it. Jesus saves people like a Heavenly Life Guard. He does for them what they cannot do for themselves. He committed his very person and body at the cross to save them. No drowning person who cried out and was saved by an earthly life guard imagines they saved themself. If the Life Guard does not hear or does not come, they die. Their cry (choice) expresses they understand their need for what they cannot do for themselves. Jesus promised to save ALL who sincerely call upon him in faith for salvation.

[@cosmictreason2242]

You sound very close to Calvinism here

[@Hadloc411]

​@Cosmic Treason it is only if they understand that the change in desire is a result of the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration, which leads to the rebel sinner calling upon the Lord. The difference is really not about free will, both sides could claim that sinners freely call upon the Lord, the question is about is regeneration the necessary prerequisite for man to choose God.

[@runcandy3]

The cry is still a work. I appreciate how much you try to distance yourself from calling it a work that you are almost becoming a calvanist. They wouldn't say that they saved themselves, but they did do an action, namely, a work.

[@beaulin5628]

@@runcandy3 The "cry" is not a work that can save them. If the Life Guard does not come they die. They have no ability to atone for their sins. God has to do it for them. Calvin's doctrine is like God tieing up a dog and then commanding the dog to "Come!" to him. The dog cannot "Come!" because God did not give him the ability. So after repeated commands God kills the dog and tortures it forever in fire because it did not "come". If the dog were free it deserves to be blamed but it is not. This doctrine also denies this scripture: 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentance." Why doesn't God sovereignly save them ALL, then? What kind of "love" towards humanity is this ?(John 3:16) Throughout the Bible God addresses unsaved people as though they have the ability to respond to him. Why this CHARADE going on for centuries if it is not so? Why not just create heaven with billions of saved people and angels living in bliss, and hell with billions of unsaved people and angels suffering in torment forever? Calvin also approved of infant baptism which is never done in the NT and the burning heretics.

[@beaulin5628]

@@Hadloc411 True, the Holy Spirit must influence and "draw" people, and he does this through the preaching of the gospel. But people are able to "resist the Holy Spirit", mentioned when they stoned Stephen in Acts. The can stubbornly resist the influences of the holy Spirt which is why they are to be blamed. God is calling all of them but they resist. In the Bible people "believe" first and then received the Holy Spirit to dwell within them. "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." Acts 19:2

[@jesseschut3784]

I just wanted to hear about the documentary but It turns out Joel’s just gonna ramble about premillennialism and Arminianism. Joel loves to pick and get snarky and punch down on some theological positions but he really want reformed folk to respect “reformed Baptists” and let them into the reformed camp.

[@cosmictreason2242]

It was relevant if long winded

[@amrosh791]

@@cosmictreason2242it was totally irrelevant. The idea that homeschoolers weren’t calvinist in the 90s is silly. Evidence: I was a kid then, and I was homeschooled, and there were Calvinists.

[@cosmictreason2242]

@@amrosh791 iblp specifically wasn’t the same people who were in say Vision forum

[@amrosh791]

@@cosmictreason2242 but his claim in the video is the "homeschooling" movement. Which vision forum, IBLP, Abeka, ACE, and many other groups were all a part of in various forms. He basically claims that to be Arminian is to open the door to these problems, which is just asinine. Just look at Grace Community Church, or Mars hill for examples of reformy boys' abuse.

[@cosmictreason2242]

@@amrosh791 you R the one lumping together what doesn’t belong together

[@robertoesquivel4447]

I'm glad you're talking about this brother, my fiance and I have been learning a lot about Biblical Patriarchy and was recommended Debi Pearl's book by Lori the Transformed Wife who you had on your show, but was troubled to hear about their association with Bill Gothard, which of course forced me to research more thoroughly their theology and concluded that I didn't want my fiance reading any of the Pearl's books. I'll just have her read books from Doug Wilson and his family! I'm not sure if you address it here specifically, but do you support the Pearl's ministry and their books? After my research I couldn't.

[@susiethorpe1670]

Good for you for researching ! The pearls promote abuse and twist scripture to justify it.

[@TheMaineSurveyor]

To those of us outside of the Wilson world, there are a lot of similarities between Wilsonite and Gothardite culture. The constant discussions of authority--always reaffirming the husband's authority, and the wife's requirement to submit, ad infinitum--are the red flag.

[@NNaadah]

In your research, curious if you came across a book called "Thy Rod and Thy Staff" by a fellow named Samual Martin. Very interesting book; and I'll tell you why. My son was born in 2002 and among the people I associated with at the time, there were several families who (patriarchal in nature) who recommended books by the Pearls and James Dobson "Bringing up boys". I tried following the principles in these books until I began to observe a certain pattern of behavior emerge in my son. He'd get frustrated and start hitting himself. The first time he did that (he was maybe 4 years old) I instantly recognized this was bad. I knew that because I did that myself as a kid. That was the point I recognized that I was screwing something up. I wasn't going to get the obedient child that I was promised by these methods. Why not? Well, I'd soon have confirmed that my son had epilepsy. We already knew he was developmentally delayed. He was getting PT, Speech, OT and special education services through the county. We knew he was delayed, but didn't know exactly why? I'd suspected he had seizures, because I'd seen some things that looked like seizure activity; and though the EEG's were significantly abnormal, doctors couldn't identify what exactly was a seizure and what wasn't. Today he's 21 and despite the best efforts of some well skilled professionals; he never out grew the developmental issues. Today his epilepsy is classified as refractory. (Uncontrolled by meds and he will have it for the rest of his life.) Now what does this have to do with the Pearl's books and this "Christian" culture of "discipline"? Well, I came to a certain revelation. That was that these folks and their interpretation of what Scripture was conveying had to be wrong. They had to be wrong because if they were correct; than their techniques would have been effective across all applications and with all children regardless of developmental factors. Well, the fact that this clearly wasn't working with my kid; gave me my answer. So from there, I started reading books on neurodevelopment of the human brain. I learned about language patterning and acquisition of language in multiple populations, including the deaf. And since something was obviously amiss about my son's acquisition of language; I'd been teaching him sign language. I read a lot of medical journals, a lot of articles and books on things like attachment theory and Autism. Another book I found useful was called "Unconditional Parenting" by a secular child developmental specialist named Alfie Kohn. When I found Samuel Martin's book; it was quite the eye opener in regards to the Hebrew language and different possibilities of application of different passages. The "rod" is an implement of instruction. If you want to teach a kid math; you don't hit them when they don't know how to do the task. You find a method of instruction that they can grasp the lesson through. (If they are capable of it! Come to realize when we hit middle school that there was a lot of academic tasks that were beyond my son's capacity because his seizures interfere with his ability to encode information from short term to long term memory. This made school extremely challenging; even for teachers who had decades of experience teaching elementary school kids. My son was a combination of home school, public school and the special education system. Most of high school was home instruction. He had a number of tutors. He only ever attained about a 6th grade education though he'd been through 12 plus years of instruction. In the mean time though, while I was trying to find answers that worked for my kid; I was getting A LOT of pushback from my Christian friends about how I was "doing it all wrong". I was basically told that their methods didn't work because allegedly I didn't do it right. I had a lot of help from multiple secular outside agencies. And to them, that was against their patriarchal understanding of how things should operate. Consequently my marriage also ended. My husband had a couple of affairs and than abandon us after a catastrophic car accident we were all involved in. Then when my son was 15, his dad committed suicide after his 2nd girlfriend broke up with him. Now the ironic outcome today is that the friends who were so vocal about how I "wasn't doing it God's way"; their families have all disintegrated. Most of their kids are now adults and have taken on raising their own children very differently than how they were raised and in many cases; the adult children refuse to talk to their parents. And here I am, with the 21 year old son whom I raised very differently. He still lives with me. I'm still his legal guardian. He still listens to me. He still respects me. We still work on resolving problems that come up. We still negotiate life. And the friends I still have contact with, can't "figure out" how he "turned out so well", when their relationships with their adult children are all in shambles. What goes around, comes around and when it comes back to bite the unobservant in the butt; it usually hurts pretty bad! I've been a believer for 30+ years. Still do a lot of Bible study. I've learned a lot with an Interlinear Bible and a couple of concordances. I'm doctrinally kind of an eclectic mix of doctrines of grace (reformed), Baptist who sees presbyterianism as the most Biblical form of church governance. And I'm somewhere between Amillennialist and Partial Preterist, who believes what Dispensationalists call "the great tribulation" was connected to the atonement. Historically, I've come to the conclusion that there's a lot of things the church only got.... about half right? Overall I think the church throughout history did it's best work in explaining redemption and the need for sin to be atoned for, as well as why Christ had to be both Divine and human, with no sin in order to be the only appropriate sacrifice. Personally, I pray a lot for wisdom and the courage and perseverance to "do the next thing in front of me" because life has got me pretty tired at this point. But if you want an interesting read on child discipline? Samuel Martin has put his entire book out on PDF - free for anyone who wants to read it! www.biblechild.com/assets/thy-rod-and-thy-staff-they-comfort-me-mar-2013.pdf

[@davidchupp4460]

I got saved under Mike Pearl and his biblical teaching. I see nothing he teaches in his cds as not biblical.

[@cosmictreason2242]

@@TheMaineSurveyor no they are not. That is Biblical. You’re clearly anti patriarchy

[@thaishonsberger7443]

It is a blessing to see that are still people that preaches the true word of God and not trying to please everyone, specially those evil ideologies! Thank you 🙏🏻

[@andrewmattiewalter]

Did you seriously just defend your version of patriarchy vs theirs because of your eschatology? That's the difference? Wow no. Just no.

[@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx]

it's not purely based on eschatology, but it does at least have a small part to be fair

[@cultdoctor100]

Bill Gothard received his B.A. in biblical studies from Wheaton College, 1957 and then his M.A. in Christian education in 1961.[7] He completed his Ph.D. in biblical studies at Louisiana Baptist University in 2004 yet he was wrong in many areas.

[@kaylar3197]

If you are addressing Joel's point about him not being a churchman, he didn't mean that he was without a seminary education or credentials. He was saying that he was not submitted to a body of elders in a church.

[@cosmictreason2242]

You rambled quite a bit at times. I think you could’ve gotten the points across equally effectively by scripting a little (not verbatim but all your desired points). I’m certain you’ll have lost some people across the two hour span of the video.

[@cosmictreason2242]

Albeit, for somebody who has no time constraints, it wasn’t hard to follow. And on some level repetition of phrases is a homiletic strategy to make sure listeners pay attention to an idea

[@sarahd5341]

He’s definitely very long winded…😮‍💨 I think he’d be more appealing if he shortened his points.

[@robsadob1594]

That take on the blanket time thing was on point. When I heard about it, I couldn’t quite articulate why it was wrong, but your explanation hit the nail on the head. Keep up the good work. God bless you!

[@ravinglunatic299]

Pastor I am so glad that you got on this quick. Me and the Wife just got though with the documentary. We found it interesting but was appalled when they attacked Christianity. Just reinforces me that even the gates of Hades will not prevail against the Church.

[@andrewmattiewalter]

Maybe you should not call your wife "the wife"

[@optimisticallycynical.814]

They never attacked Christianity. Funny how how You allow the church to back politicians who arm Saudi Arabia and pretend to be a man of God

[@davidchupp4460]

I wouldn’t throw the Pearls in the same ring as the Duggars and Gothard. Just because you disagree with him on his teachings doesn’t mean it’s not biblical. I’ve never heard him going against anything that’s not biblical.

[@maryscammell8999]

My church is doctrines of grace (Calvinistic), pre-mil, dispensationalist and we are not pessimistic because we know the Lord is sovereign and good and all powerful so we call people to repent and believe in the gospel-Mark 1: 14-15. And trust God for the results. We are obedient and He is the Lord of the harvest. And when Jesus comes back comes, no one knows the time so keep doing the Father’s work while there is light-while we are here we live for Him in the power of the Holy Spirit and call people to faith. And be good citizens in a constitutional republic and promote and vote for what is right in God’s eyes and pray for righteous leaders and laws. We go through the Bible verse by verse and God is Lord over all and has triumphed, is triumphing and will triumph for all eternity. Maybe we are different but that’s who we are. 53:01

[@beaulin5628]

Amen, sister.

[@juliek93187]

Amen!!

[@sarahd5341]

When we say dispies are pessimistic it’s because you believe the world is in a steady decline and that the majority of humanity is reprobate. PostMills believe Christ, like leaven in the loaf, is slowly bringing the world into submission under his feet. We believe the majority of humanity will be saved. In that sense, you’re undeniably pessimistic.

[@kaylar3197]

@Mary Scammell that sounds like my church. Thank God for faithful churches sharing the gospel, disciplining believers, and worshiping God in truth. My beliefs are much closer to what Joel expresses here, but I am so thankful for the sincere faithfulness of my church even though I disagree on some doctrines.

[@oliverwoods4699]

As the church matures over centuries are there not some areas in which our fathers excelled (such as creeds of incarnation and Trinity), but others in which they were, and still are "dumb." For example, Van Til I think looks back over time and sees the church being "dumb" in the realm of apologetics. In other words, there has been an habitual tendency to use "evidences" in a futile attempt to "prove" the Bible instead of "evidences" used to convict the sinner. This has resulted in the cataclysmic judgment that we labor under today. 1) Augustine used the Neo-platonist Chain-of-Being to "prove" Christianity: "The One"=God, "Nous"=Christ, etc 2) Boethius used Greek philosophy for comfort facing death: The Consolation of Philosophy 3) Pope Hildebrand used pragmatism to escape state rule, but left the state to its own secular law codes. 4) Anselm used Greek logic to "prove" the incarnation and God with an Ontological Argument. 5) Pascal used probablility and "heart religion" to "prove" Christianity 6) Cotton Mather used Newtonian Science and Plutarch's Lives to prove Christianity 7) Aquinas used Aristotle to "prove" Scripture, but repented 3 months before his death 8) Today Canon Press uses "natural principles" of Aquinas excluding Bible to prove CN, & has not yet repented. In other Words church leaders have permitted the heresy of Natural Law to undermine the doctrine of the Ultimate authority of Scripture to this very day. God's definition of Christian Nationalism in Exodus 20-24 is completely ignored. For evidence please Check out Keys to the Classics: A History of the Decline & Fall of Western Christianity in the bookstore at KingsWayClassicalAcademy.

[@saynotohookups]

I attended a Baptist Church for several years. I don't ever remember hearing the Pastor say that Baptists just came out of nowhere. Baptists continued on from the time of Christ and the Apostles. I remember the Bible stating that they were first called Christians in Antioch. The terms Baptist, Anabaptist, etc were terms that their enemies gave them.

[@TheMaineSurveyor]

As I understand it, Baptists in English-speaking countries can trace their theological heritage--their distinctives--to the Puritans in England. Baptists believed most of the same things the Puritans in the Anglican Church did, but practiced believers baptism, instead of infant baptism. The 1689 London Baptist Confession was largely drawn from the Westminster Confession of Faith, with the chapter on baptism being one of the greatest differences. From there, Baptists split into two groups, Particular Baptists and General Baptists. The General Baptists drifted further and further from the gospel, to the point of unitarian theology (a false teaching). The introduction of dispensational theology in the late 1800s/early 1900s whittled away at many of the Particular Baptist churches here in the US, leading them away from reformed theology.

[@NNaadah]

@@TheMaineSurveyor - Yes, there's a lot of "rabbit holes" one could go down digging through church history. When Pilate asked Jesus "What is truth?" I think that is applicable to just about anything we read in history books. I think we'll only ever know as full of an answer as is possible on the other side of eternity!

[@highcountryprecision4639]

This should be interesting, my wife knew people in the documentary and her family was early in it. I've been showing her a lot of your videos and shes commented more than once it's like being in a Gothard seminar!

[@BEABEREAN10]

Yeah, after hearing more and more about these seminars, I can't help but see the similarities. I'm not saying he's a cult leader, but the level of control he extends and the fact that he relegates many matters of conscience to outright sin is concerning. Not to mention his stance on theonomy.

[@DCard-yw6ml]

@@BEABEREAN10 I agree with you both. Be very cautious of his teaching. A lot of legalism.

[@cosmictreason2242]

@@BEABEREAN10 bruh what an L take

[@cosmictreason2242]

@@DCard-yw6ml define legalism, bet you can’t

[@dougparker629]

I had a similar reaction when I saw it pop up. I thought, “Oh look! An ultra-misogynistic patriarch is going to talk about another ultra-misogynistic patriarch! This should be fun!” (It wasn’t. Mostly long-winded and boring.) I listen to this guy predominately to ensure I’m not crawling around an echo chamber. My favorite clip of his is where he declared that he doesn’t let his wife read unless he’s read it first and he deems it worthy for her fragile little woman mind. His “reasoning” that “Biblical Patriarchy” is superior to Gotthard’s is essentially stated to be: 1. Because churchmen are advocating for it. (cuz that’s never gone bad before…) 2. His theology is supposedly better than Gotthard’s cuz Gotthard is a dispensationalist. (Though I seem to remember IPLC being fairly Calvinist in practice…) In reality, when you strip away the fancy theological phrasing and textbook narcissistic arrogance, his reason mirrors that of modern-day Marxists who support socialism despite its universal historic abuses and failures: “Because they did it wrong and we’ll do it right!”

[@beaulin5628]

Matthew 23:9 "And call NO MAN your father upon the earth: for ONE is your Father, which is in heaven." This verse is talking particularly about spiritual "fathers" and "masters". It was the Jewish religious "fathers" that led them astray with their traditions for centuries and that is still going on. To this day Jews that are not secular atheists follow the teaching of the rabbis instead of the word of God. The command to "honor thy father and thy mother" in the Ten Commandments is about physical fathers not church leaders.

[@mattdoby5895]

“They just appeared and they’re about to disappear” 😂😂

[@keelhe893]

I don’t agree with the eschatological views and some of the other concepts on salvation of this channel’s community but I agree with the concept that there should be a balance in life. I also agree that these so called Christian documentaries are not being fair to honest Christian viewpoints and are attacking the body of Christ

[@thesagetraveler7649]

Side note, Kristin Du Mez is everywhere. Just watched the Hulu doc about Hillsong and she was featured in that too.

[@RightResponseMinistries]

She’s truly a snake.

[@swordman802]

This means that there will probably be a documentary about John Macarthur too!

[@amrosh791]

He deserves one about as much as Jim Bob. Covering up abuse repeatedly, misappropriation of funds, etc.

[@cosmictreason2242]

One of the people in the documentary, KZbin channel fundie Fridays, says she’s beginning to focus attention on Allie Beth Stuckey and John MacArthur next. So your likely to to see attacks coming from the 🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍🌈🚺 eventually

[@subzerox2324]

Pastor Joel, don't be discouraged by resistance to the message you're preaching. If this was a game, you know you are headed the right way when you encounter enemies. You have been such an encouragement to me in the past weeks, I've been devouring your content wholesale and sharing with any who are willing to listen. Run with endurance the race that has been set before us 🙏

[@RightResponseMinistries]

Thank you! Incredibly encouraging!

[@MrLibertyHugger]

Way too long and rambling. The views should be stated in 20 mins. He is painting with a 24” roller with only black and white. He should have James White on and have a discussion .

[@juliek93187]

Your statement about church history and independent fundamental baptists is a broad swept assumption. I grew up learning church history and taught it to my homeschooled children. My father is a baptist pastor and has immersed himself in church history from the 70's when He came to a knowledge of salvation. I know many examples contrary to the claims you made. Be humble please. This is prideful, divisive and elitist.

[@silverbuckeye]

Yeah, as a Fundamental Baptist myself, I made it about 48 minutes in, and just had to stop. I thought he was going to be really good, and some parts were, but much of what he said about my particular faith left me peeved, because his representations of it are not true. Fundamental independent Baptists are not Arminian, and we don’t believe you can lose your salvation like arminian theology teaches you can, and we don’t believe that the only sin people go to hell for is rejecting Christ. 1 Corinthians 6 is not a challenging passage for us. Also, even though the vast majority of us are premillennial dispensationalists, we don’t believe Jesus is coming back next Thursday. We believe Jesus could come back any moment, but in what effective capacity is that different from the other model he gave of Christ’s return? His model of end times ALSO teaches in the sudden return of Christ. Coincidentally enough, my church just went over 1 John 3, where John is telling his “little children,” the church there, to be ready for the return of Christ. Unless I missed the rapture, that was about 2,000 years ago that was written, and we are still in the final hour. Guess what we believe? The great commission was a command that implied Christ wouldn’t come back for a while. That’s what we believe. We’re living in the final hour, BUT WE HAVE BEEN SINCE CHRIST’S ASCENSION TO HEAVEN. What he outlined was HYPERdispensationalism, the blood moon conspiracy nonsense, which is the garbage espoused by men like John Hagee, which NO IFB church I have ever attended has taught. Sidenote, but worth mentioning, he engaged in the same exact error that he accused the maker of the documentary for having. I mean, he rightly identified that this documentary is a hit piece on conservative Christianity as a whole. Anybody with the discernment skills of a fruit fly would know that’s how it was going to turn out. So, he rightly observed that, and rightly said, “Hey, that’s not all of them, or even most of them.” but then turned around and basically said, “One of the reasons that they were like this is because of the influence of Independent Baptists, and that’s because they’re Arminian not Calvinist (which is a false dichotomy, and not remotely true), and they believe that Jesus could come back at ANY MOMENT, and they teach salvation is like a gift and not something that God assigned without their knowledge or choice before the foundation of the world, and they don’t have answers for this and that and blah blah blah strawman strawman strawman.” I stopped almost immediately after he said, “I don’t engage with them for the same reason I don’t engage in debate with my two year old.” Okay, sir. Excuse me here, but you don’t just get to make up crap about what I believe, destroy that strawman, insult your brethren as lesser than your two year old, and then call for serious theology, which the only one he thinks is serious is Postmillennial Covenant 5 point Calvinism. Well, 5 point Calvinism teaches there is no such thing as free will, that God predestined all things to happen. That is what they mean when they say “Sovereign”. It would only then follow that the Calvinist “man doesn’t get free will” theology dictates that God divinely authored original sin for the purpose of saving only a fraction of His creation. The same God who cannot look upon sin authored it “For His glory.” Some brands of it will dictate you can’t even know your own salvation, or you can’t know if your miscarried or stillborn child will go to heaven or hell. Don’t talk to me about how much Calvinism is biblical, and makes sense. It isn’t, and it doesn’t. Sorry that God doesn’t fit in your box. I believe what the Bible says, including the parts I can’t easily explain. If god fits in my head, he isn’t a god worth worshipping. (Lower case g for reason of the fact that that god would be one of my own imagination).

[@ransombaggins9301]

Some great thoughts! Can't agree with your wooden definition of "rod" discipline or the notion that "gentle" parenting equates with hating your children. Frankly, that sounded like the kind of irresponsibly broad brushstroke I'd hear from a stereotypical fundie than a considered pastoral exhortation. 🤷🏻 I've wrestled with this for two decades now, practically but especially scripturally, and I am confident that *proper* discipline is what's called for and what that looks like in particular situations may vary somewhat and it's not always or necessarily corporal in nature. That said, despite my supposed "hateful" parenting, God has blessed us with three wonderful, loving, God-following teenagers who are a joy to be around. 😉 Again though, some excellent commentary on an important topic. Keep it up!

[@cosmictreason2242]

He’s not wrong, guarantee your issue is with what you’re imagining discipline to look like

[@NNaadah]

I started out with corporal punishment and had to change my methodology and how I taught my child how to behave. Hitting him only began a process of internalizing a form of self hatred that I could see emerging when he was only about 4. I recognized the pattern because I'd gone through that as a kid myself. It took a lot of years of therapy to not believe I was worth less than the dirt on the ground and that God could actually love me. My son is 21 now and has developmental issues; but today he functions quite well despite the challenges his epilepsy brings to his life. He's also quite strong in faith and I've learned a lot from him (and am still learning a lot from him). Just recently came to the realization that God conveys a certain care of all in creation simply based on the intrinsic value He holds for life itself. That's pretty confounding, even despite there are those who will face judgement for their sin. God's ways are beyond ours!

[@darkcircles06]

@@cosmictreason2242the rod referred to a shepherds rod, shepherds don’t hit their sheep with it. They guide them back to the flock. People who think it means hitting them have never learned how good animal herders treat their animals.

[@cosmictreason2242]

@@darkcircles06 you just described what a staff is, which is in the same passage in ps23, but on what basis do you conclude that the same word means the IDENTICAL same thing in two completely different places? Do you do the same thing with words like “youth” or “brother?” Hope not

[@darkcircles06]

@@cosmictreason2242 that makes literally no sense. The meaning of a rod in that society would have been referencing a shepherds staff, and only abusive shepherds hit their sheep into compliance. You think God is sitting around waiting to beat you into submission? We’re talking about the same one who allowed himself to be brutally murdered for us right? Cause that’s pretty inconsistent with an abuser, sorry to break it to you but hitting people weaker than you is abusive.

[@jameseverhart9814]

I always enjoy your videos 😊

[@sammyt4549]

Joel, id love to hear what some of the books and curriculum for parenting young ones are that you're referring to

[@gianthebaptist]

"not the witness of Church History" Laughable. Luther literally believed universal atonement. Limited atonement is in the minority in history, and it's not even close.

[@cosmictreason2242]

Everyone believes in a limited atonement unless they’re a universalist

[@zacdredge3859]

Perhaps Joel said this and I missed it but what exactly does Premill eschatology have to do whatsoever with these particular people being abusive etc? Seem like a blatant case of genetic fallacy.

[@andrewmattiewalter]

It really is, he said that about eschatology to assure you that this is the reason his version and also Doug Wilsons version is somehow "better" and "more biblical"

[@ForwardTalk]

I have to say that I was surprised how graceful you were to Mark Driscoll.

[@dustinnyblom7835]

Do you have a list of resources on young child discipline and such? I was going to look into the book by one of these groups but I need to figure out where I need to go to learn these things

[@RightResponseMinistries]

I recommend Doug Wilson. And his daughter Rachel.

[@sarahd5341]

Standing on the Promises by Doug Wilson is an invaluable resource imo

[@kimmurphy72]

Shepherding A Child’s Heart by Tedd Tripp

[@jjgems5909]

I loved this book and also parenting by Tedd Tripp.

[@jjgems5909]

Sorry I meant Paul Tripp.

[@marymack1]

Don't know if Voddie Baucham would say he's patriarchal, but I do believe he's amill in eschatology, and does speak a lot about father headship in the home (fours P's), home schooling, and has spoken against age segregation in the church (like youth group). I have also noticed the alignment with patriarchy and post mill, lol.

[@ArugaPH]

I'd love to hear voddie speak with Patriarchals

[@fndrr42]

Voddie had ties to quiverfull. Did a good job of distancing himself from it but he was definitely involved.

[@mktay2067]

Many liked what he had to say but I never actually heard him pushing that teaching. 🤔

[@fndrr42]

@@mktay2067 - I doubt he fully endorsed the teaching, he just had ties with the Gothard movement. If you like him, I wouldn’t worry about it.

[@cosmictreason2242]

@@fndrr42 he did not have ties to gothard/IBLP that is slander. He was associated with people from Vision Forum, a completely separate movement that was church focused and reformed

[@highcountryprecision4639]

How many people do you actually know that ho we're in IBLP? 100% of those I was around were Calvanist in soteriology, they move very easily into a Reformed Church, all that I know that are still in it are now Reformed, it was a lateral move for them!

[@kaylar3197]

I don’t know a ton of them, but the only one who’s soteriology I am familiar with was strongly Arminian. (That may be changing-we can hope.)

[@amrosh791]

Exactly. I was homeschooled and interacted with lots of homeschool families. There were plenty of Calvinists to go around.

[@mktay2067]

JimBob was completely against Calvinism so that actually surprised me

[@MansterBear]

What is a good reformed baptist catechism? I have the Reformation Study Bible and it has the Westminster Catechism in it, but as a reformed baptist I would prefer a Baptist one. I'm sure I agree with the majority of the westminster anyway, but is there a reformed baptist equivalent? I assume there is, so I'd be interested to hear what you use at your church Joel, or maybe what the Apologia guys use.

[@RightResponseMinistries]

Benjamin Keach

[@mrsupchurch2987]

I’ve never heard that “honor your father and mother” also meant church fathers, too. 🤔

[@MH-uh3hw]

Church history is helpful because we have thousands of years of ppl who have the Holy Spirit who consistently believed the same thing.

[@MH-uh3hw]

We should be cautious when someone brings in something new that no one has believed

[@beaulin5628]

That verse is about giving due respect to one's earthly father (and mother) not spiritual leaders. Jesus is warned especially against the Jewish "spiritual" leaders who led the people into apostasy and idolatry over the centuries: "And call no man your father upon the earth: for ONE is your Father, which is in HEAVEN." Matthew 23:9 Terrible judgments came upon them from the Assyrians and the Babylonians and finally the Romans. These "religious fathers" are the ones who rejected Jesus and were the cause of the temple being destroyed in 70 AD ! All through the Old Testament God rebukes the Jews for doing things and following "traditions" learned from "their fathers" which contradicted his word instead of following his Word. This is still going on today. Religious Jews trust their "rabbi"and books written by ( apostate) rabbis like the Talmud, and Mishna, and other oral traditons handed down instead of believing the Hebrew Bible (Old Testment) which they view as a history book rather than the supernatural revelation of God to the Jews. Some of these past rabbis were very prominent occultists. I respect all true Christians leaders of the past who were sound in the faith and hold them in high regard. Charles Spurgeon is one. There are a few contemporary pastors I also respect, and value all the more because false teaching is so widespread now. But much error has come in over the centuries and the word of God must be our primary focus, never church leaders. The Apostle Paul told people to study the scriptures and even check him out, like the "Bereans" did. The authority of the father in the home, and male leadership in the church is clearly God's esteablished order to be followed for the best results in both areas of life.

[@NNaadah]

Jesus said that his mother and sisters and brothers were those who obeyed his Father in heaven. (Which included Joseph. Scripture said Joseph was a fair minded and upright man.)

[@beaulin5628]

Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

[@K81620]

Doug Phillips was a Calvinist and also would be lumped into this kind of group

[@cosmictreason2242]

IBLP is what the shiny happy people were about. Vision forum was something different

[@davidfayfield6594]

A cult is a cult is a cult

[@jeremysmith964]

I am a covenant theology guy but why do all Calvinist quote pieces of Matt 7 but never the entire statement Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. So what is the will of the father. And what fruits will get an unfruitful tree thrown into the fire. This implies we can do good and evil. I mean that’s 4th grade level comprehension For the record I believe dispensationalism borders on heretical doctrine

[@beaulin5628]

”Primitive” Church? It is the height of arrogance that most of today's theologians, seminaries, and 'churchmen' like to refer to the New Testament first century church as "primitive". The First Apostles and first believers were the people closest to Jesus. Many even saw the resurrected Christ. They were the closest witnesses to what he taught and recorded it for all of humanity in the midst of severe persecution and great peril. To imagine that modern expressions of "Christianity”....churches with rock concert stage shows, circus-like entertainment , prosperity hucksters, women and homosexual pastors, Marxist subversives, Ecumenical corruptions of doctrine, pompous Popes, bishops, and cardinals decked in purple, scarlet, and jewels is an advancement of authentic Christianity is unmatched PRIDE . The doctrines taught on the pages of the NT are the FOUNDATION of the Church, the "fundamentals". The foundations of the walls of the Heavenly Jerusalem that descends from heaven are even named after the Twelve Apostles. Christians who adhere to these foundational beliefs ("foundationalists") are viewed with intense contempt by today's more learned and enlightened religious leaders, perhaps because those “dangerous fundamental Christians” are not as impressed as they should be with the scholarly improvements these ruling theologians have produced in Christianity. Errors began coming into the church very early which Jesus addresses in his messages to the Seven Churches in Revelation 2-3, all of which have since “lost their lampstands” to Islam. That people should look to the Word of God as their final authority for faith and practice, as taught by Jesus (“Thy word is Truth”) is most odious to those who desire to rule over God's heritage.

[@beaulin5628]

The first century church as described in the New Testament was the church closest to Jesus. Why would anyone not follow them as the best example? You admit that scripture is the only INFALLIBLE authority, and that church history is not infallible. So why not stay with the INFALLIBLE authority? This is the very way the Jewish religious leaders gradually drifted away from following God by "traditions" they had learned from "their fathers" for which jesus rebuked them so sharply. They believed their (erring) "fathers" more than the written words of the Hebrew Bible. and ended up with a religion that bore no resemblance to Moses and the Tanakh "Scripture itself testifies to other authorities"? WHERE does the New Testament testify to "other authorites"? I know of none. The "traditions" taught by the First Apostles and Paul all were all things taught by Jesus and found in the word of God. Jesus said, "THY WORD IS TRUTH". He answered most questions with "It is written".."It is written." If scripture is the "supreme infallible authority that never errs" (which it is) why would anyone move away from that in any degree to follow Church Fathers in some things MORE than God's word? And why would someone criticize those (distasteful) "fundamentalist" believers" (ugh!) for doing exactly what Jesus told them to do? "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4 No one despises "church history" or the church fathers for the accurate things they taught following the Bible but they do reject the many errors they brought in over the centuries. You are trying to sell believers "church traditions" and you are failing. Obviously you are part of a system where approval, acceptance, and advancement is to be had by regarding Church "Confessions" and Church history as much as, or equal to, the Word of God. This is exactly how the Roman Catholic religion evolved to become a counterfeit version of Christianity which has destroyed millions of souls. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1

[@VintageHart1]

This felt like a master class. Exactly what we needed. Thank you.

[@BEABEREAN10]

Universal Atonement: #1 the OT atonement was available for all of israel but inly applied to those who came. #2 jesus is called the way. The gospel is call the way. Propitiation is a payment of which jesus paid for the sins of the whole world, but only those who come will that be accounted on their behalf. Meaning, their sins are nro forgiven unless they come. So no, the sin of unbelief is not the only one people are suffering for. Without belief, the payment is not applied so you are guilty and will suffer for all your sins. Yes, God knew not all would come, but he still provided enough for all! Some may say this is a waste, but it is simply a show of his grace and mercy leaving no one with an excuse. I know you won't argue it because its like im a 2 year old, but it must be said.

[@BEABEREAN10]

I think the best analogy is that of God providing a meal for all of humanity. Because that's essentially who Jesus is, the bread of life. So God knows how many people will ever be born in this world and he buys enough pizza for all to eat of it. He then sends out ambassadors to go and proclaim the free pizza to all the world, and anyone who comes can eat and be full. But those who do not come will be hungry. If you say, well didn't God knows how many people would eat it? Absolutely! And so did Jesus when he multiplied the loaves and the fish, but he had no problem with their being leftovers after the meal. He didn't view that as a waste, and neither is his blood wasted if some do not come.

[@BEABEREAN10]

Also, referencing deut 30 - God spoke a word to Israel which brings faith and enables them to choose death or life. But even then, some did not mix faith with what they heard and they died. In the same way today, God's word, the gospel, is spoken to men and they too are thus enabled to choose life or death...but just like Israel, many reject the cutting to the heart and do not mix faith and are lost. If you think that makes the one who chose better, then that's on you to take up with God since it's CLEARLY how God intended it. That we choose. But to be clear, no man is able to choose apart from hearing God's word. IF you truly believe we do not choose at all...then God is a deceiver for telling Israel to do something they couldn't do. That would be like laying your baby on a blanket and placing a toy in front of their face, and then anytime they reach for it, you smack their hand and tell them they cannot grab it. Which is actually the very way this show describes teaching your children from a young age, telling them to do something they cannot do. That's like me telling my 6 year old to go climb Mount Everest or else he's getting a spanking! That is wrong and so is God telling mankind to choose something they cannot lest they be punished.

[@John14Verse6]

So if he paid for everyone’s sin, why then punish people for something you already paid for?

[@BEABEREAN10]

@@John14Verse6 Because they didn't come. That's the condition...in real life a judge may say to a criminal - come to this place and you'll be pardoned of all your crimes because of XYZ...but if you don't, then they will remain and you'll be jailed for them and you can't go back and blame the judge. So the judge makes a way. This is the same thing with the eternal judge and savior, He paid for all the sins and said the only condition to apply the payment on your account is that you must come. So if you want to be technical...yes, people are suffering in hell for sins that were paid for, but the payment was never accounted to that persons record because they never came to the one who paid for it.

[@beaulin5628]

@@John14Verse6 One must believe in Jesus Christ and what he did to have the benefit of being forgiven applied. One must "receive" the offered gift. Many reject it thinking they are "good people" who don't need Jesus for forgiveness of sins.

[@lepp6598]

That whole movement is just plain evil.

[@darkcircles06]

So right from the start your pretending that half that churches leadership knew nothing about these abuses that Gothard committed which I can tell you from experience is wrong. Especially when it happens to children they’ll say things or ask questions that will identify that they’ve been abused and every adult that heard them turned a blind eye to it and let it keep happening. Almost every victim in the church I’ve ever met had the same story and it’s the same with parental abuse. Someone has to speak for that unaccounted for time when he was grooming these kids, someone would have noticed the pain the children had after being alone with him for any length of time. Don’t kid yourself, it wasn’t isolated. Their entire church abandoned them because these principals of authority that you hold dear would hold anyone who questioned the patterns guilty of apostasy or a loss of faith for even asking the question. It deserves to be called out and no amount of “but I do the abusive things the right way so they aren’t abusive” is gonna get you out of facing the fact that you personally share beliefs with a pedophile and protectors of a pedophile.

[@beaulin5628]

You just said it, "Mr. "Calvinst Confessional". Adam and Eve CHOSE to sin. They had FREE WILL to obey or disobey God and their descendants do also. (They obviously had some "molecules" God did not control, R.C. Sproul)

[@philipmurray9796]

They act according to their nature.

[@beaulin5628]

@@philipmurray9796 The obviously had the ability to choose as part of their nature. And God made them that way.

[@philipmurray9796]

@@beaulin5628Romans 9:19 answers your question. Will you accept it?

[@beaulin5628]

@@philipmurray9796 There is also election for service and purpose. The choosing of Jacob and Esau is about God choosing between two NATIONS that would be the descendants of these chidren and to which of them he would commit his doctrines and testimony, not individual salvation. God knows by foreknowldege what people will do but does not make them do it. Jacob valued spiritual things so much he was willing to steal to get them and Esau cared only about earthy, fleshly comfort.

[@philipmurray9796]

@@beaulin5628 before they were born, God decided. It says it clearly in the text. So it's not based on what they did or would do.

[@davebuehner4307]

The existence of errors does not negate the virtue of the genuine. Only scripture is the rule to life and faith and not particular attempts of application. A bad reaction to the evil of feminism does not justify feminism. What is missing even from Michael Foster’s and Rebekah Merle’s presentations is that marriage is a type or representative picture of gospel. It is the core the gospel not just dominion or feeling fulfilled. Biblical patriarchy is not simply about authority, (but as Christ has authority over the church so authority does matter) but about grace, oneness, nurture, sanctification, discipleship, faithfulness, humility, service, mission, covenant and sacrifice. But the true gospel encompasses authority and covenant. Piper wants to flatten hierarchy (except in the pulpit) - just as Eve desired. Biblical patriarchy respects hierarchies in authority within jurisdiction and in service, duty and covenant responsibility. The church has attempted to synchronize romance with covenant and has lost the essence of the covenant marriage, ie the gospel typology that points to Christ and the church. The Arminian marriage teaches that a husband must “earn the married bed” according to Al Mohler or the happy wife happy life or the a husband must first touch his wife’s heart before he can touch her body et al. The decision of a wife is the central principle not the covenant and unity that presents union with Christ. The existential choice of a wife represents the choice of a believer. Hence submission is something akin to a gift not a command to obeyed, a husband is an equal not a “lord” as Sarah called her husband, and husbands cannot correct their wives because that would be overbearing and tyrannical. The natural result of Arminianism is the destruction of the household by means of existential caprice. The Greek stem for apostasy and divorce is the same word, because breaking covenant on earth represents rebellion resulting death and hell. Yet the church embraces divorce because they embrace romance theology even if it requires suppressing the scripture. Refusing the Christ after having tasted grace is apostasy, that is pictured by a divorce. Refusing one’s earthly lord pictures refusing the Lord of lords. Likewise a husband divorcing his wife pictures a Christ who is not faithful to His covenant with His church - that is anathema to the true gospel.

[@framboise595]

@ Dave Buehner "The Arminian marriage teaches that a husband must earn the marriage bed" This is the most wicked and unscriptural heresy that gives wife power and let her act like a whore who does what they please with her body. How men can agree with that is beyond me . Nothing but fallen Adams who obey females rather than God and what HIS word says.

[@sonnyh9774]

Jesus bought the sin debt. Jesus has the right to collect on the debt like a debt collector. If we choose to believe and trust Jesus for forgiveness, He will. People go to Hell because they reject Jesus. People go to Heaven because they choose to believe in Jesus for the forgiveness of sin.

[@beaulin5628]

You're right about Bill Gothard.

[@davidfayfield6594]

Gothard may not have been a church man. But he was quite the coxman!

[@nicobrits5111]

The IFBs just called those church fathers ‘Catholic’ end of story.

[@psalm2forliberty577]

Joel, my best Christian Brother - 40 years he was my best man - lives in NW Arkansas and knows Jim Bob Duggar personally. He's a sincere & serious solid Christian man. Albeit the TV show definitely turned their whole family into holy "Celebrities" not unlike Televangelists. This has had negative consequences, surely. But Jim Bob Duggar hadn't wavered according to my friend whose "in the know". Just my informed 2 cents !

[@RightResponseMinistries]

Glad to hear that! Jim Bob was never my concern.

[@cosmictreason2242]

Jim Bob nevertheless no matter what the circumstances, failed to deal correctly with the issues regarding his son at multiple points

[@psalm2forliberty577]

@@cosmictreason2242 Hard to say from here. It's easy to misjudge when you're not party to all the details. My wife & I thought we were "Pro Parents, God's Way" when all our children were young. Once they grew up the more challenging circumstances appear that humble you & can seem intractable. Truth is, despite our "Covenant Faithfulness" - which we certainly aim for - our children are still sinners who have to "work out their own Salvation with fear & trembling". That process is messy & can make both them & us look like abject failures. God's Grace & Spirit must guide...not our formulaic wooden expectations.

[@juliek93187]

@@psalm2forliberty577 spot on! Parenting is humbling, sanctifying, grace-filled work. Cling to scripture, the true gospel, and be faithful to an expositional, Bible teaching church.

[@psalm2forliberty577]

@@juliek93187 Yes Ma'am. And we can't choose our Trials & Tribulations, they're, in effect, chosen for us, and timed to humble us & train our dependency upon Christ as LORD and Holy Spirit as Guide. This experience will be a journey far beyond "paint by numbers" Christianity, to discipleship by Christ Himself. Don't be dismayed when / if God is pleased to use rejection by many near you, like children or relatives (hopefully not your spouse) or by fellow church members. The prophecy given in the Temple to Mary about Jesus yet unborn, "He will be set for the rise & fall of many in Israel"....still influences us today. We seldom see the verse on our Fridge: "I have not come to being Peace, but a sword, to set at variance a mother from a daughter or a man from his wife, or a man from his neighbor..." (My close paraphrase)

[@K81620]

Whats an apostate? A believe who has turned away

[@beaulin5628]

Most people who believe that free will is involved in salvation do NOT believe you can "make another choice" to lose your salvation because genuine salvation involves being born again and CHANGED into a "new creature" that would never want to leave God. The Bible promises that a saved person is "kept by the power of God"..."that he is able to keep them from falling and present them faultless before his presence in glory." (Jude) "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Christ Jesus." Philippians 1:6 Jesus said that "no one can snatch them out of his hand" and he will "lose none of them". People who turn away from God after claiming salvation were never "born of the Spirit". If they were "sows" or "dogs" before, they are still those creatures inwardly.

[@zachsparks3947]

What are some examples of boomer theology?

[@orborn3580]

I watched the first two episodes of the documentary. It showed the Bates family from Tennessee. They are a great family…nothing like the Duggers.

[@cosmictreason2242]

Yet they’re divorced now aren’t they?

[@orborn3580]

@@cosmictreason2242 no…

[@cosmictreason2242]

@@orborn3580 turned out I was thinking about the plaths. I don’t know either group. Not from this background.

[@mktay2067]

LOL Gil is a leader in IBLP.

[@orborn3580]

@@mktay2067 well, they sure don’t follow it. All of their adult kids have KZbin channels, wear jeans and makeup, get their hair cut and highlighted….not exactly super fundamentalist behaviors. The married kids don’t demonstrate hyper hierarchy male/female roles.

[@andrewroby1130]

40:22 Does the concept of the unforgivable sin answer this? I thought the one thing that cannot be forgiven is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, meaning (in part) to reject knowledge of God's existence when one has been shown, even to one's own satisfaction, that God is real. In that cas Christ died for all sins _except_ the one which he could not. Alas, I see as through a glass darkly...

[@andrewroby1130]

Oh lol I should have shut my mouth and kept listening. I should never assume I know enough about the Bible.

[@grantarmbruster6591]

I love this Channel and I pray for you and I really hope that your children don't release a tell-all book remind us again hold your children are

[@davidfayfield6594]

See you are way of base about parenting dude. It’s not if it’s abusive or not, it’s if it’s BIBLICAL or not. That’s where you need to center your discipline

[@highcountryprecision4639]

IBLP was not a denomination, it was a way of biblical living so it was to be taken to the church your in, some might be Arminian NONE I know were, the ones I know who have left IBLP since the stigma about it has come have 100% settled into Reformed Covenant church's. They did drop a few things, I find most funny they now find sitting with a cigar or pipe with a whisky or scotch now cool and make your theology better but other than that same root same fruit. You can come up with ways to sound different all day long but its coming from the same souce that has worked to deceive for centuries. This is the smoothest rebranding though but it always comes back around in times like this, you can set your clocks on the rebranding and resurgence. IBLP members will feel very comfortable with the teaching on this channel, those who have gotten out of the cult react very negative and always say this channel reminds them of listening to the Gothard. The end of this path is pain, I've seen more than a few men at the end of life in this and NONE have a relationship with more than half of their children and I only know of one family the children still claim Christ, Calvanism has been the only safe spot they can go that take all their guilt off of their shoulders since election frees them from the torment of destroying their children!!

[@cosmictreason2242]

You want it to be the way you say but it ain’t

[@andrewmattiewalter]

Yes totally true

[@jesseschut3784]

They were also all baptists

[@RightResponseMinistries]

Very true. That point did not escape me.

[@andrewmattiewalter]

To think that the next "Netflix" documentary won't hit close to home for you is very naive of you, to think you've got all your theology tied up in a pretty bow and that it makes you the best most balanced most RIGHT pastor is naive, I guaranteed that in the next 3-5yrs people are going to be watching the next documentary and feeling the same way about Wilsons church, apologia church or your church. One of you is next.

[@LucianaPelota]

💯

[@LBelieveinJesus]

There's no one in hell today. People sleep in the grave and then rise to everlasting life or to hell..hasn't happened yet. I agree with a lot of what you say and I'm probably more Armenian than Calvinist but I think it comes down to the unforgivable sin Jesus spoke of. I see salvation as a vehicle and something you can claim by choosing. Under your logic someone could want to be saved but never have a hope to get saved. This means Judas had no hope of salvation and he was born to be the betrayer. I think he had a choice in the matter. Calvinism seems to reject the notion of free will in my estimation. Armenianism is more open to the thought that anyone could choose Jesus and therefore no one has an excuse come judgement day. Back to the documentary, I watched it and cringed so much for the kid getting punished on stage in front of all those people. It mentioned men slapping their wives too (to correct them) it seems to reduce the woman to the position of a child. Yes women are to learn from their own husband's but this idea is troublesome because it's easy to let abusers off the hook. There's dignity in marriage that gets messed up when these principles are brought in. I do think that Jesus is coming back soon. I'm not sure when but I'm hoping before next Thursday.... Any day. Even if it's not for 50 years we still have the obligation to raise our kids right for their future. But there's nothing wrong with saying he will be coming back soon as in the 2000 year grand scheme 50 years isn't much more than 5 years. The problem is when people date set. I don't like how you make it out Armenians are foolish and can't be reasoned with. You're making good points but then you're dividing the herd into smart and stupid groups of your own making. It doesn't really matter what we all think we know what matters is what Jesus did and what he's gonna do. I think we should have these discussions, they add value to the church as a whole. Also I felt so bad for the girls in the Dugger home. Seems like Jimbob had too much control over the money. Also you're talking about child discipline. I can't agree with you that discipline starts round 10 months. I think that's quite callous and ignorant. I think round 2 or 3 but again it depends on the child and method of delivery is also different for all kids. Some kids have sensory issues and trouble processing fear and pain so there's no one perfect answer but I'm not a proponent of physical discipline unless it's the last resort or the situation naturally warrants it. The blanket time was pure evil. Parents are supposed to be a safe zone for their kids. And if I bought my child a toy then why would I place it out of reach and smack them for crying for it. Babies and toddlers aren't great at communication and we should have ultimate grace for them. What would Jesus do? I don't think he'd be smacking the little kids at all. Kids understand things very well when you're patient with them and give them one on one alone time. It's pretty lazy parenting if everytime your kid steps out of line you just smack them. The rod the bible describes could easily just represent discipline in general.

[@cosmictreason2242]

1. Soul sleep is a heresy. 2. You don’t understand corporal discipline

[@cosmictreason2242]

But to clarify we all agree blanket time is foolish

[@juneeastwood8391]

The view is Arminian, with an “i”, named after Jacobus Arminius, Dutch theologian of the late 16th century. Armenian with an “e” means one who is from Armenia, a country in Asia.

[@LBelieveinJesus]

@@juneeastwood8391 lol my education let me down. Thanks for the correction 😁

[@LBelieveinJesus]

@@cosmictreason2242 Daniel 12. You also believe in a day of resurrection... How can you call it heresy when it's just expansion on Jewish thoughts of the time. It doesn't negate the need for salvation or the fact that you cant do anything about where you're going when you're dead if you die in your sin. Also I understand corporal discipline but I just don't think it's only an actual rod that the bible discusses. I haven't seen it modelled well and I think you can discipline without the use of it. There are other ways.

[@theresaread72]

Jesus said Call no man father, because you have one Father in heaven. Matthew 26 This is true for Catholic Priests and people who went before us. The Bible never says to look to the People who went before you and call or honor them as Fathers The Hall of Faith, the Cloud of Witnesses in Hebrews 11 say to put your Faith in the One Father in Heaven through Jesus Christ. Satan is not bound to no longer deceive the nations any longer, proof we are not in the millennium

[@sarahd5341]

“The seventy-two returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name!” And he said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you. Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”” ‭‭Luke‬ ‭10‬:‭17‬-‭20‬ Satan had a demotion following Christ arriving to earth. He is no longer able to deceive the nations the way he was able to in the Old Covenant

[@preppedforeternityhomestea2848]

Joel as a SBC Pastor and attender for years I concur . I am gone lay it out here Reformed Confessional Preachers , Churches and Denominations have a higher view of Gods word even higher that The moral majority or the IFB churches . And I believe those who are convinced of the Solas are more disciplined students of Gods word there it is

[@theresaread72]

@@sarahd5341 Cults, Mormonism , Islam all false destructive deceptions. We have the Truth in the Gospel, Jesus is the Truth, We have the Spirit of Truth but Satan is not bound as PostMillennials believe. We are not in the Millennium. God Bless

[@psalm2forliberty577]

Actually Satan IS bound in this sense: He can do NOTHING to prevent the 🌎 worldwide spread of the Faith, ALL nations today are open to & hearing the Gospel. Christians in virtually every land & underground & VISIBLE churches thriving everywhere, on every Continent. Prior to Christ Jesus' enthronement as KING 👑 upon David's Throne (Psalm 110:1, Daniel 7:13-14, Matthew 28:18, 1 Corinthians 15), God's plan of Redemption was only revealed to SOME of Israel, not even all, and unknown by other Nations. Now, that has ALL REVERSED. THAT is how Satan is bound. He CAN occupy foolish willing vessels who "give place to the Devil", and is certainly the "spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience". But his power is greatly diminished, and Satan is routed by Jesus name, everywhere it's used in genuine Faith by the Holy Spirit, AMEN.

[@beaulin5628]

Amen!

[@kookpatrol7490]

Hi Joel, do you reject lordship salvation? And do you have a critique video?

[@cosmictreason2242]

Lordship salvation is just the word for Biblical Christianity. “If you love me you will keep my commandments” also John 15:14

[@Kirsten130]

Boring and confusing.

[@edeancozzens3833]

Did I hear that George Sonos bought control of Christianity Today?

[@Dulcimertunes]

It’s been worldly for years

[@beaulin5628]

Sexual immorality proves any person, ordained or not, who professes Christianity to be false and no one should follow them. The religious leaders of Jesus' day looked down on the "untaught" fishermen Peter, James, and John and the other ordinary people that Jesus called to be his first disciples with contempt. Who are these untaught fisherman to deal with spiritual matters? They are not ordained by the High Priest. And who is this Jesus? This carpenter from Nazareth? Can anything good come out of that backwater? And who is this camel-hair-clothed "John"...coming out of the desert and daring to BAPTIZE people in the dirty Jordan river instead of the temple, and telling us Saducees, and Pharisees to "Repent! For the kingdom of heaven is at hand."? Who gave him the authority to do this? "WE have the authority of God, not this untaught rabble that has appeared from nowhere."

[@edeancozzens3833]

Christian hit piece.

[@K81620]

Jinger escaped fundi to go to MacAuthirs church to dress in tight pants and escape modesty. Shes not going to homeschool...wow she is cool now

[@jjgems5909]

You’ll get over it.

[@impalaman9707]

Having watched "Shiny Happy People", I must admit--I do like the IBLP's stance on a man choosing a woman to marry and the woman isn't allowed to refuse him. As a guy who was always a loser in the game of love---that works for me!🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@grantarmbruster6591]

I love this Channel and I pray for you and I really hope that your children don't release a tell-all book remind us again hold your children are