Ship Chat: Miranda Class

Today we look at the career of one of the most prolific ships to ever serve in starfleet. Introduced in Star Trek 2 'Wrath of Kahn' and continuing to appear as far a Deep space nine. as always enjoy.
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[@hansebee]

Miranda class says "oh yeah, so where were all the Constitution Refits in the Dominion war? We didn't see none!"

[@jamesp8164]

I always assumed that the Constitution class was not a modular starship design like the Miranda. It became too difficult and costly to keep it upgraded as compared to the Miranda or the newer Excelsior class. It was likely retired in favor of these other designs that proved easier to build, maintain, and to modernize as new advances were made.

[@Sensiblefool]

@@jamesp8164 there is that one theory that the Connie got banned because she was too powerful she did time travel the easiest.

[@chrissonofpear1384]

My headcanon is that the Wambundu-class, meanwhile, is the Miranda-lookalike for the Ambassador-class (see shipschematics.net, USS Pellucidar)

[@hansebee]

@@chrissonofpear1384 yes, imagine the internal volume of this thing. Although, looking at the Pellu, I always thought the Ambassador type saucer would lend itself to a more underslung rear hangar superstructure, instead of or addl to the existing one.

[@KertaDrake]

I get the feeling that the Constitution Refits just reached the end of their upgradability. Likely having the Enterprise-A problem where they would turn into a tech support train wreck every time a system was replaced with a newer one, while the Miranda had the benefit of being a new build based on the Constitution Refit design rather than being a jury-rigged frame from at least one or two starship design generations ago. The Constitutions were VERY old even by the end of the TOS movies and even the Enterprise was likely a cobbled together mess of tech from over 40 years of time only held together by duct tape and having the best engineer in Starfleet! I'd imagine if you tried upgrading some random old duotronic computer in the bowels of the ship, the lights would go out in the saucer or the deck plating would spontaneously ad 0.25g for no sane reason! There's probably plasma conduits that you have to just give a kick sometimes to keep the plasma flowing, but no one can explain why that is and you can't replace it because those parts haven't been made since the 2240s. The Constitutions might as well be inhabited by poltergeists after going through as many extreme refits as they have! Just ask any corporate IT guy whose company relies on pre-90s software they refuse to pay to replace how difficult it can be to make old systems still work with modern computers and you'll have a small glimpse of the nightmares that Starfleet has hidden beneath the shiny hull plating.

[@GoodOldGamer]

I appreciate the Miranda because it's the daddy to the Nebula and granddaddy to the Akira. The design lineage is one of the clearest to see.

[@Shadx27]

I like the new Reliant class that takes after the Miranda. From Star Trek Online.

[@ErokCherokee]

Miranda class has more internal volume than a Constitution class. Yes I was surprised to find that out also.

[@JeanLucCaptain]

Miranda is certainly built as a warship first despite it's modularity. It has far more forward and rear Firepower then the Connie and is even taking some design cues from the D-7.

[@richardtrue2758]

It does did you see the vid by E.C. Henry where he figures out that Miranda does have more mass? It's like the Galaxy class and Nebula class people don't believe me when I say the Nebula has just a little more mass then the Galaxy

[@JeanLucCaptain]

@@richardtrue2758 Which makes you wonder why even bother with Connie or Galaxy? Miranda could do the job of the Connie better because of its modularity and superior armaments. Same with nebula.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

i get it with the Miranda because it does use different elements for its superstructure. whereas the Nebula is entirely galaxy parts.

[@richardtrue2758]

@@JeanLucCaptain you can say that again

[@MrRavenBlackwing]

8:19 I want to take a moment to highlight something. There is apparently a Miranda at the Battle of Cardassia named U.S.S. Samuel B. Roberts in the background shots. No Hull Registry but it is there according to the eagle-eyed among us. If you are a Naval Historian of any merit; you know the very significance of a ship with that name. I would like to think that is a Miranda that was not only at every major fleet engagement of the Dominion War but also at the Second Battle of Sector 001 with the Cube and it still somehow survived all this while its sister ships died; it kept on fighting phaser and torpedo. "The Destroyer Escort that fought like a battleship" would definitely have a ship who earned bearing the name in that instance. That's also a vessel worthy of Hero Ship status.

[@mattcaughey4883]

As I wrote my captain he was a commander of a Miranda class ship named USS Normandy. During the battle of wolf 359 he was in a wing with the Saratoga and an Ambassador class. He was there and tried to help the Saratoga escape the borg tractor beam. He didn’t pull it off but managed to escape from the borg after one nacelle was blown out and took a few good blows as he ran back to the fleet. On his last pass he went in with with the admiral and that’s when his ship was virtually blown to bits. The resultant plasma explosions inside burned him badly and trapped him under wreckage. His XO had to use a phaser to cut off his legs above the knee to get him off the ship before it blew. While being carried he caught another one and they had to put him in stasis. The ship was definitely not enough

[@albatani27]

I've never really understood the Miranda's reputation as the "redshirt" of the fleet. We really didn't see them destroyed in significant numbers during the Dominion War, and the battles that did claim them, also took out Akiras, Excelsiors, Nebulas, and Galaxies. Plus aged as they may be it's a pretty safe bet the Mirandas that did fight in the war, were doing so with upgraded systems. Would they be the same standard as a modem Nebula or Akira? No. But they would still be highly effective ships. At least in my opinion.

[@james8449100]

It's like a bowing 707 next to comcord.

[@jbz4788]

When you’re 90% of the participants of the battle of course you’ll take the most casualties. The question is how proportional to the numbers were the casualties compared to other classes?

[@cmj0929]

Excuse me ? Everytime it was on screen it was being blown up in the dominion war lmao

[@oldgamesinvestigator7852]

I agree. Also, in many of the games like Star Trek Starfleet Command the Miranda was actually the best light cruiser in the game. Compared to other ships of the same class it's also quite heavily armed, fast, and fairly durable. I think the reason many of them get blown up is because the Federation has used plenty of them and is always using them in fights, kinda like the Klingons use their Bird of Prey in literally every war they've had.

[@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent]

For the most part I think it was to show how pathetically unprepared for combat the Federation actually was compared to the technologically powerful Dominion. Also I think the Miranda's kinda have a reputation as the villain ship from the Wrath of Khan that screwed over the constitution in short order. So seeing Miranda's becoming red shirts likely as a way to screw them over. In reality the Miranda's should have been one of the last relics of the Federation true military forces besides the heavier excelsiors. A outdated light cruiser given to captains that the federation had do patrol or light exploration duty has been updated over the years becoming little monster frigates that has a nasty little reputation against smaller power vessels and pirates that could rip apart anyone dumb enough to warrant having one turn up and as a inspiration for the Defiant and the Akira class and also as a possible well maybe we might still need them along with the excelsiors.. In the few footages of the Miranda in Deep Space 9 they prove to be agile quick little ships. With the roll bar of the torpedoes. They should have been nasty little torp ships that fired torps at a distance then covered larger ships well able to shoot and hurt anything above their weight class. Sure have them still be thinned skinned or shielded. Its not like small ships are going to last long against heavy fire but at least have them take a hit or two before going down. In STO you get I think two miranda's the early starting ship one that essentially is a outdated miranda TOS movie era and then a later late 24th early 25th updated one. The ship can't last to much under heavy firepower but with updated systems its nasty little ship that brings a lot of hurt and acts like a heavier defiant.

[@darkguardian1314]

When I seen Wrath of Khan in the theaters back in the 80's, two things stood out were the uniforms and the Reliant. Reliants review was a interesting. First, you see the saucer section and I thought oh that must be Enterprise then you see the rest of the ship after a slow fade in and I was like interesting.

[@stephendarroch5565]

I believed that part of the reason so many Miranda class were so successful was its adaptability, like its 24th century "replacement" the Nebula class. Between the end of the Klingon cold war, the Cardassian conflict and the discovery of the Borg threat the federation and Star Fleet had gotten complacent in a "golden age" of exploration and peace. Using the Miranda class Light Cruisers to patrol and police the federations borders. However once the Borg showed up obviously what had been cutting edge early 24th centrury ships had to be mothballed and replaced by what the 25th century needed, ie Akira, Defiant and Steamrunner class. However when faced with the Dominion's battle fleet, taking the venerable Miranda class ships out of cold storage and hastily refitted with minimum crews to field attack wings makes sense.

[@JoacinoDaGona]

Essentially the Miranda became the victim of her own success, being service way past her viability, because there was no need for Starfleet to look into a successor (like they did when they replaced the Oberth class with the Nova class), when the ol' reliable Miranda was performing good enough.

[@KertaDrake]

And then in the 24th century when replicator tech became commonplace on an industrial scale, you could probably build most of a Miranda in an hour and just have people bolt the parts together in a day or two.

[@darkestfugue]

one of my favourite ships, took a while to grow on me but these days i think its a beauty

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

yes a definite classic.

[@mgrant011]

But always the first to bite the dust during the domin war

[@-randychasechase2660]

I always loved the grain ships that carried the poisoned grain. The cargo vessels

[@pauldavis9387]

I saw a Kitbash that had this primary hull attached in line with a Constitution class secondary hull and Constellation class warp nacelles. It is The Coeur De Lion. In French it is The Lion. One of my favorite ships ever.

[@Vandelberger]

“Long lived”, was never a word I’d given a Miranda, lol.

[@blairbrown4812]

Individually,no. But in fleet numbers,yeah.

[@shalaconballard9912]

The Miranda class was started out as a light Cruiser but they also made a Heavy cruiser version of the Miranda class . and they even made it as a light carrier .

[@ussvoyager8650]

The Miranda class is a really cool little ship I've got models of the USS Reliant & the Saratoga & Soyuz versions of the Miranda class

[@biostemm]

I've always been a fan of the extended/expanded saucer section - looks lean, mean, and all business!

[@larqven0192]

I've long felt that the Miranda Class was a new ship in the 2270's. Much of my thinking and head-canon was influenced by novelizations of episodes and "The Motion Picture". The Motion Picture novelization indicated that the Enterprise refit was SO extensive that it might as well have been a brand new ship, and also was only done because it was so famous a ship. In short, it was massively refit due to political reasons. So, I've not been a fan of the Miranda style refit theory. I thought it was a new ship. On the OTHER hand, the registry number for Reliant seems to exist in the TOS era setting, and the Enterprise seems to be the test bed for these new technologies. Further, as the Enterprise was about 25 years old by the time of the refit, the closeness of registry numbers would suggest that Reliant was a TOS era ship as well. We also know that Star Fleet typically does refits quite often to upgrade their vessels for a long life rather than ships getting swapped out every decade or so. On a somewhat related topic, I've been a proponent for the Constitution ships NOT showing up in the late 24th Century setting for their age. Miranda Class ships make sense in that they had great utility for their modules and shuttlebays. They were the heavy 'pick up trucks' of the 23rd C, and the light 'pick up trucks' of the 24th C. Even when they became small and dated, they were still useful for mundane missions and generally reliable in a fight. And, of course, there seemed to be a lot of them; they seemed to have become the standard sort of Star Fleet ship for some time. I'm not sure that Miranda design is actually more modest in size than the Constitution. Due to its larger half-saucer scale, and its blocky aft hull, it might well be slightly larger in mass and volume than the Constitution. The ship had a poor showing in the Dominion War, but conclusions should be tempered by the Dominion being a superior foe. After a very long time, against the Borg and Dominion, Star Fleet was forced to punch UP as opposed to fighting inferior foes with 'one arm behind their backs'. ALL Star Fleet ships were going to come up short, even the much vaunted Galaxy class after the dramatic encounter with the Odyssey and the Jem'Hadar 'bug ships'. The overall point is correct, though. The Miranda Class was obsolete and needed to be retired, it probably should have happened earlier. But, as newer ships seen in the 2360's were 'mostly peaceful and pretty' in design, the little old battle-wagon frigate probably had a lot of proponents keeping them around. Indeed, while being obsolete, a case might be made that their presence could have been more beneficial than negative. Star Fleet might have been very well served militarily to have replaced them with New Orleans class ships for example, but that might not have been a great enough increase in firepower and utility to have saved them against the superior foes and left the coffers depleted for when more dangerous ships needed to be built. A case might be made that the greatest problem with the Miranda Class was that it was so successful a design that Star Fleet made too many of them! While they were clearly in a sort of long phase-out period, they were still a major component of the fleet. For some time, the typical ship of Star Fleet was probably a Miranda Class or variant.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

yeah the movie also has dialogue which states that the refit was extensive. and yes there's arguably politics and patriotism behind its continued service. similar to how the american b-52 and tu-95 are still in service despite being over 50 years old they are national military symbols. i'd be tempted to say the registration 1864 was more a result of production than anything else. your probably right regarding volume. and i agree that in many ways it was a victim of its own success.

[@teresaravenshaw5477]

NCC-1864 works okay for the 2270s. NX-2000 was only in the 2280s. Clearly ship construction was slower and fleets smaller at that time, which makes some sense for a much smaller Federation.

[@barrybend7189]

I see with the Miranda class it was similar to the constitution class. Only instead of 3 generation runs there's only 2. Gen 1 is the TOS type while gen 2 is the ones seen in Wrath of Khan and later.

[@TheRezro]

Miranda (Refit) itself was. But it actually was evolution of older ships, at least in Beta canon. Starting from Anton class destroyers (or gamma canon Ares, what is extremely popular), then historical TOS miranda. In fact Helios and Malachowski class from Discovery are clearly proto-Miranda's. Then all those ships were refitted into unified standard in 2070's. I like this piece of lore as it make Khan decision really smart as Reliant was rebuild Anton/Malachowski. What make it way stronger as purposefully build destroyer then regular Mircanda, even if you could distinguish them only by few details. Like slightly different placement of nacelles.

[@poseidon5003]

The Miranda class wasn't that useless in the Dominion war. Yes we see a few of them get wrecked but those were dire circumstances when they were under severe heavy fire. We even saw Excelsiors and an Akira bite the dust as well during one of those occasions. It's not fair to shine it in such a dim light like EVERYBODY does. It had it's place as a maneuverable frigate. The torpedo launcher could wreck and was probably equal to a Dominion fighter one on one. We've seen Dominion fighters go down with around 4 photon torpedo hits, and the Miranda could serve that up easily. Yes. On screen, it was the ship that got blown up the most, but that is expected when they are so numerous. But we also saw a lot of BoP's and Dominion fighters get wrecked as well. Yes it was the Federations weakest ship, but it obviously had it's place.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

i would agree but i think the reason people pick on it is its size. as you say its competing with dominion fighters and B'rels but its a lot bigger than either. it fills a role yes but its not so much that it was designed for that role its that it fell into it from age. a more apt comparison would be the Ktinga granted we don't see it as much which is almost the point. the Klingons still make use of the Ktinga but they know its limits.

[@poseidon5003]

@Stanley Jedrzejczyk But.....the oberth.....didn't...get blown up the most.......

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

true it could mostly take care of blowing up itself.

[@larqven0192]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 This is a good observation. The Miranda class was SO good, that it stayed in service even as its role devolved ever downward. It became Star Fleet's de facto destroyer or even light attack frigate (or heavy attack frigate might be more accurate, lots of guns, but too big and heavy). The Miranda was designed to be a battle cruiser in its day; but it was playing lighter ship roles in the end. To its credit, it usually did a good job of it, such was its acceleration and maneuverability I suppose. Apparently countering the Bird of Prey designs were not seen as necessary? In any case, the Dominion Bug ships left the Federation flat footed, with nothing to counter them by the 24th C that comes to mind, except the Defiant.

[@raw6668]

@@larqven0192 I don't think the Dominion Scarb class is that hard to deal with on a ship to ship level with as they were made to be mass produce warships. As we see them get trounced by even a runabout, and times where the fleets size was the same or smaller then the Alliance had the Federation Alliance win with fewer casualties. No, the problem was the Dominion could mass-produce and replace fleet-level losses within days. Combine swarm tactics and the use of concentrated fire made them deadly on the battlefield. Making it difficult to concentrate one ship to take down, while dealing attack runs made by 3 or more ships at once. The only way against such a tactic is the ability to fire in all directions and have strong enough shields and armor to survive the initial attack or being maneuverable and agile enough to avoid the initial attack and fight amongst the enemy. The Miranda is a good ship, but she is designed for tactics where the enemy cannot afford to be reckless and more balanced enemy fleets.

[@stevenewman1393]

🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and very well informatively explained and executed in every detail and every way shape and form possibly provided indeed, And I myself have always loved the Miranda class starship's, Also I have various model kits of this ship and the micro machines and Hot wheels model and Johnny lighting one's and all of the Eaglemoss variations of this ship as well👌.

[@madrabbit9007]

I look forward to a deep dive Wings look at this and other Federation ships.

[@TimothyChapman]

Can we just chock-up the majority of appearances in TNG and DS9 as simply that the writers couldn't be bothered to build more era-appropriate designs?

[@weldonwin]

As I understand it, TNG was a very expensive series for TV at that time and there would of course be pressure from the studio to keep costs down, which is why the only Starfleet ships we saw aside from the Enterprise, were Excelsiors and Mirandas, with the occasional Oberth

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

budget maybe. i wouldn't blame the writers. speaking as someone who has experience writing scripts you can write whatever and its someone else's job to make it happen. Although in my case that person is also me... i think the big tragedy is they didn't try to re-use or rebuild any of their wolf 359 models.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

aye but its still a tragedy that we never saw them try to fully realize them.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

@Stanley Jedrzejczyk personally i have a soft spot for them the Niagara especially

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

im sure it will be fine... probably.

[@leomartin1603]

I wish that star trek lore can give a accurate analysis of how TALL as well as wide the saucer section is.

[@garycleveland6410]

The Miranda class was a good modular design in its day but it became the "red shirt" of Starfleet during the Dominion war.

[@stars9084]

Ive been looking back lately and I’m not sure the issues the Miranda had during the Dominion War were as bad as they look at first glance. In the battle for DS9 2 of them hung in with the Defiant going through the Dominion lines. By the time they were blown away the Defiant had already taken heavy damage running the same gauntlet

[@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent]

Problem with the Miranda's is that they tended to be closer to the screen compared to later era ships thus giving them the red shirt status although in actuality they proved to be tough little ships that could run with ships like the defiant and keep going. Its likely true that in the end other ships likely proved more red shirt than the miranda's (looks at the Galaxy Class before they turned into proper battleships) Yet many people have always had a love hate relationship with them.

[@dannyfisher5086]

I think it would of done much better in the dominion war if it could of made use of its shields but as the dominion could bypass them and the ship was so compact each hit would be potentially devastating it just wasn't designed to fit that sort of role

[@FBobby]

I made a group on facebook wayyyy back in the day called A Tribute to the Miranda Class Starship - The Red Shirt of the fleet.

[@blairbrown4812]

Oberth-class:Am I a joke to....no,wait. Never mind,I don't think I want to know.

[@Sephiroth144]

"In universe, it was constructed around the 2370s"; other forms of canon put it earlier. I mean, I know it was a verbal "typo", but... I'mma bet all forms of canon put it earlier ;-)

[@mrhitisnumberone]

More battlespace please you do your best work with that series.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

its coming next week. i just do this to tie you guys over since 'Battlespace' does take longer to make.

[@jeffhallam2004]

I was in the theatre and it was amazing! Keep these videos coming!

[@AvroBellow]

Despite the Miranda's outwardly smaller appearance compared to the Constitution, it actually had a significantly larger interior volume compared to the Constitution. From that standpoint, it was, in fact, a larger ship than the Constitution.

[@macadoo1588]

As much as the Federation loves to say it does not use money, building ships costs resources and time. When you have a territory spanning 8000 light years, ships that are built to last and can easily be upgraded are at a premium. The Miranda fit that role very nicely.

[@Roddy229]

Newly commissioned red shirt's experiences: Gets assigned to a Galaxy class: "Ooh, swanky! I'm gonna enjoy this one" Gets assigned to a Miranda: "Well crap, I'm gonna die soon, might as well update my will now"

[@springtime1838]

Considering the weapons on a Miranda Class at least 6x2 Type 8 Phaser Banks probably of kind you'd expect on a Battleship and two forward and aft Phaser Cannons and twin forward and aft Torpedo lunches and two big shuttle bays i have to wonder if like the Soviet Kiev the Miranda Class was just called a Cruiser heavy light and such but was really Battleship or a Heavy Shuttle Fleet Operation Cruiser(using the Soviet system)

[@franksmedley8619]

The Miranda class lasted so long due in large part to it's modular design. Being modular, it was thus easier to maintain and access components of it's design, as well as the modules attached to it. Dual shuttle bays meant that, even though small, a ships compliment of shuttles could be deployed twice as fast as the Constitution class, and with it's primary duties as an explorer vessel, it could deploy those shuttles more quickly to get a wider and more accurate picture of any new star system the ship encountered. The Miranda also had more volume internally than a standard Constitution class, with a small overall crew compliment. Which meant that more of the ship's internal volume could be devoted to both stores and specialized scientific instrumentation. On top of all this for the 'basic' hull, the class had it's modules. Many, many modules. Some being weaponry, some being scientific, and some being additional sensor systems of various types. And finally, the Miranda class became, due to it's ease of access, and ease of repair and operations, a 'test bed' ship design for newer technologies during their development phases. 'Back in the day', decades ago, my friends and I used to refer to the Miranda as the 'Star Trek version of a Liberty Ship'. A ship intentionally made simple, reliable, and easy to maintain and upgrade, as well having the ability to integrate additional systems as it's mission profile dictated with the addition of the 'pods'. So, all in all, it is my considered opinion (dis-agree with me if you must) that the Miranda was the most under-rated of the most successful of Star Fleet's ship designs. speaking Frank-ly

[@raw6668]

Miranda is the most overrated and underrated ship in the fleet. Used too much since its conception to carry everything, including the kitchen sink. But in the Dominion War, had the unfortunate fact of being the best model and became the red shirt for it made pretty explosions the designers said. Making it a joke in the end despite being a tough ship.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

yeah thats quite a backhanded compliment 'You guys built a really nice model. so we are gonna show it blowing up a bunch!'

[@raw6668]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 Oddly enough, compared to the number of unique appearances seen in the show to being blown up on the screen, it actually has the lowest percentage of being destroyed compared to ships like the Akira, Sabre, Defiant, or Steamrunner. Only the Galaxy have better survival rates. I think we see it a dozen times but only 4 were shown to be destroyed. Heck, in the Battle for Chukona, we see 2 Akiras get blown up, but only 1 Miranda. It is sadly the only ones we see up close get blown up.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

interesting i'm guessing a lot come from the battle of sector 001 where most explosions are in the background.

[@ycplum7062]

Supposedly, both teh Miranda and Constitution classes were deep space exploration ships. Ir ead, but not sure if it is canon, that teh Constitution class was capable of 5-year missions while teh Mrianda capable of 3-year missions. Obviously, more comfortable living quarters, greater self sustainability, additional quarters for science crews, and extra science labs increases teh ship's volume without adding to its fighting capabilities. If anything, it hurts them by increasing hull armor and shield demands for the addition non-military spaces.

[@haroldchase1881]

Frankly star fleet could have kept them around because of treaty limitation. Much like pre WW 2 Navy’s kept many older Battleships exc and gave them massive refits because the treaty permit the refits and prohibited larger more powerful replacements. Perhaps star fleet played the game of refit the older ship and make her more powerful using the latest technologies.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

true there may have been limitation treaties at Kithomer. and due to the Klingon economy Collapsing there wasn't a tech race any longer. and your right Starfleet does like to switch up old spaceframes with new parts.

[@richardtrue2758]

That's what they did all the older ships where refited with state of the art tech and weapons

[@highcommand4786]

One of my favourite starship designs and I'd argue the best one Starfleet produced. I'd even go against the conclusion reached in the video that they performed badly in the Dominion war. Hear me out on this, I promise I have reasons. Firstly look at the designs Starfleet came up with to fight the borg. One feature they share is flatter hulls than the TNG era ships giving them a slimmer target profile for enemy weapons to target. The Miranda also has that shallow target profile. In First Contact, despite the battle of Sector 001 having been going on for quite some time by the time the Enerprise arrives, there is clearly seen a Miranda class engaging the cube amonst the fleet. Tactically Starfleet are performing much better using swarm techniques but a Miranda is still doing as well as many of the newest generation of ships. The other thing to consider is crew size and the impact of automation. Memory Alpha states the Miranda class as having quarters for 220 officers and crew but it also gives the crew size as 26-35 in the 24th century. This actually makes them incredibly efficient from a manpower perspective, which is a major issues when fighting the Dominion with its ability to clone Jem'Hadar in vast numbers and they are prepared to use suicide run tactics such as when they destroyed the USS Odyssey with it's huge crew size. We see Vorcha Class ships suffer the same fate at Chintoka and Romulan warbirds taken down with ease at their failed attempt to wipe out the Founders. The Miranda is much more comparable to the Klingon bird of prey in how it performs in the larger engagements. Individually vulnerable but the numbers they can be deployed in and the small crew size is the key. Compare it to the Galaxy class for a moment, and the crew sizes from Memory Alpha. It list the crew size as 1000-6000 (compared to the Miranda's 26-35). If we take the lower estimate of the crew size of the Galaxy at 1000 and work out how many Miranda's could be crewed by that number of people using their higher estimate of 35, the answer is 28 Miranda's can be deployed. Imagine now going into battle against say 10 Jem'Hadar bug ships. Would the Galaxy class survive the encounter? Probably not. Would most of the Mirandas be destroyed? Probably but in the end weight of numbers would win the day. For most of the War we see the vast majority of the Dominion fleet being either Galor or Jem'Hadar bug ships and to me that's not an unreasonable opponent for the Mirandas, particularly when they are operating as part of a much more varied alliance fleet.

[@toomanyaccounts]

they lasted as much as other ships that got massive firepower against them.

[@bear8696]

partway thru tng the federation imposed a "warp speed limit" that alone probably extended the useful life of this class of ship in multiple roles. if you can only go warp 5 or 6 instead of red lining it all the time (fire wall speed! go fast zoom zoom!) then you extend the life of engines and ships.

[@toomanyaccounts]

that warp limit was fixed in like a month. they figured out how to negate the pollution issue and just shared the tech.

[@26th_Primarch]

The head-canon about the Miranda being a TOS era ship and all we've seen are refits is a bit much for me... So I came up with a variant on the idea: That it was originally designed and a testbed vessel or two were built prior to the technology seen in the Enterprise refit and when that became the current standard the test ships one of which could have been the Reliant were refitted while the rest of the Mirandas being constructed were built to the new standards of Starfleet vessels. Of course I am basing this concept on how some real world military equipment underwent development.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

definitely possible and thats a better ending than a lot of projects which get stuck in technical limbo- integrating new tech only then for another advancement to develop.

[@samuelvine]

Would you be interested in doing ship chats on some of the fan designs from before Picard? Not from STO but the online beta canon or books - like the giant Excalibur Class or the Voyager A from the Extended Seasons Project.

[@matthewleto1180]

My thoughts on the Reliant’s number showing up in TOS is that the Reliant was finished and looked like a TMP ship, just with a TOS livery, interior, and some internal components.

[@KertaDrake]

Considering it's registry was about a hundred higher than the Enterprise, it could very well have been built before the TMP refit of the Consitution, even as early as while Kirk was still just a captain of the Enterprise, with new technology that was then retroactively fitted to the Constitutions and the design just wasn't seen because the new aesthetic just hadn't had a chance to fully circulate through the Federation.

[@JeanLucCaptain]

Can we do a discussion about the USS Equinox? Because THAT NEEDS THE VENOM TREATMENT!

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

definitely i'll probably cover it after the oberth

[@JeanLucCaptain]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 So your covering the Two Explodium class ships First? What about Axanar? Do you have plans to cover those ships?

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

@@JeanLucCaptainin the videos these are based on 'tank chats'. the best ones are often where David Fletcher discusses a strange or failed design so thats the kind of thing im going for.

[@JeanLucCaptain]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 true but some more philosophical discussions maybe? Kinda like an expansion in the clones/jam'hadar style video? WHEN IS PART 2 OF THAT BTW🙏 the actual VS match. I just think that it's would be interested for you to do a battlespace on the Equinox but make it a more philosophical or "What would you do?" Kinda video. I'm especially interested after watching The Sinking of The Liconia. An amazing two part movie that shows how a U-boat rescued the survivors of the Laconia a passenger ship turned troop Transport they just torpedoed it's the Christmas Truce of WW2.

[@SuperGamefreak18]

From others whose names I've forgotten over the years I've always had the head cannon that the miranda class was the upgraded version of a TOS class that acted as a test bed for the new line of connie refit/enterprise class Connies with the enterprise like someone else said being refited because its fame and every connie refit after was a new ship

[@dbarnaby86]

While there’s certainly a lot of beta canon that points toward the Miranda being a TOS contemporary that was refit during the movie era I tend to think that “proper” Miranda class ships were new builds staring in the mid 2270s. There’s a lot of FASA rpg and other sources pointing to a TOS era light cruiser like the Miranda that was called the Avenger or Anton class. In my head cabin I tend to think those were available in smaller numbers during the 2250-2275 range. They proved the efficiency of that particular hull form and showed the potential modularity that it had. The enterprise returns triumphant from its

[@dbarnaby86]

Damn. Hit post too soon! Anyways the enterprise returns from its 5 year mission. Due to the new generation of tech needing a testing platform + the political aspect of ship being a celebrity in its own right it was used as a test bed for the next generation warp drive, tactical systems etc. as theorized in many places, including this channel, the vertical warp core barley fits and while the refit is a success there are some practical considerations (warp core for and vulnerability due to the thin neck chief amount them) that it makes sense to no create new build constitutions. The relativity small number of connies get refit, the TOS era Miranda’s look alike classes are decommissioned, and a serious production run of the new Miranda class starts around 2273-75. I feel that star fleet looked at this form factor and took the connies vertical warp core and flipped it horizontally in the Miranda’s hull dead center / toward the back half of the primary hull. It was far more protected than in the connnie and you could swap out the entire impulse unite / warp reactor for refit or repair from the ships aft rather easily without having to cut up the rest of the ship. Since these were new builds and were sooo much more modular than the Connie they were far more future proofed. The Connie was never a modular ship. It had one spot to fill in the fleet and it did so and did it well for a long time but the simplicity of the Miranda’s hull layout was its biggest strength

[@marz2467]

I'd like to think that Starfleet pumped out nearly 200 Mirandas from NCC-1800 to NCC-1999, with most surviving the latter times of Klingon aggression and into Starfleet's Golden age where they would take minimal losses through the years before being placed in reserve right before TNG begins early 2360's. Because they're so recently mothballed they're the first ships pulled out of reserve and given a quick refit including automated systems so that they can function for a protracted period with a minimal crew. It's my head-canon that Captain Montgomery Scott's contribution to the Dominion War was laying the ground work automating these Miranda class ships with the same Automation tech he'd used to steal the original Enterprise decades before. This alleviates both a manpower shortage and a shortage of combat credible Ships (As noted in DS9: In the pale moonlight).

[@TannithVQ]

I like the Mirandas. They knew what they were doing when they built that. Wrath of Khan wouldn't have been half so good without it.

[@jetnova16]

The Miranda-class is used in the Star Trek: Vanguard novels; the USS Bombay which is destroyed by 6 Tholian Battlecruisers on a routine resupply mission at Ravenar IV and this is set during, prior and after the TOS episode “Balance Of Terror”.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

interesting like i saw i do have a soft spot for the look of TOS miranda's but lore wise find them a bit unnecessary.

[@jetnova16]

Venom Geek Media 98 it makes sense that they would exist though along with other ship classes like the Constitution-class. The Constitution-class were frontline heavy cruisers for their time well the Miranda-class is the light cruiser normally for patrolling the Federation systems along with other classes and being the workhorse of the fleet well the Constitution-class the battle ready ship equipped for longer missions in a time when communications with Starfleet Command took hours to even longer at times.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

true and i don't rule out a Miranda Equivalent i simply don't think its worth the time refitting all of them in the way the constitution was. it would probably be easier to build new ones from the new parts.

[@jetnova16]

Venom Geek Media 98 The Miranda-class was parts interchangeable with the Constitution-class that’s why they refit them together. They use the same nacelles, struts and saucer section actually just in different configuration. In fact the real life model was made with the Constitution-class parts and rearranged.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

true but its worth bearing in mind that the constitution refit itself is built out of entirely new components and arguably it was more effort to refit the connies than just build new ones. and with a lighter ship like the miranda its even harder to justify.

[@TimothyChapman]

Can you do a video on how Janeway was not held accountable for what she did while in the Delta Quadrant, but instead got promoted? I'd also like to see a video on why Sisko got away with terrorism.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

i haven't seen all of voyager so im not really in a position. but yeah i might do a Madlad Sisko video or one on why Picard should have been medically discharged at least twice.

[@I_am_Diogenes]

AGREED ! I have no issues with Janeway as a captain but as a Starfleet captain ? No . Best be careful about Sisko however ..... every time I point out he is a war criminal his fans get kinda ..... testy .

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

@@I_am_Diogenes he definitely went to the 'Aurther Harris' school of warfare.

[@bear8696]

light cruiser or escort ship. capable of doing a lot of things without the cost of your flagship.

[@TheDing1701]

Wouldn't it be 2270s? Awesome video, though!

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

most likely yes but we don't see it for sure until the 2280s

[@joeclerkin2653]

Venom Geek Media 98 right, but on the video you said 2370’s multiple times.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

@@joeclerkin2653 my apologies thats me mixing the dates up because i forget the 23rd century are the 2200s.

[@larqven0192]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 I would point out that the movies Star Trek II to IV (and even V to an extent) happened right after each other, almost during the same year. So, instead of taking place in 2282 as might be expected, the battle with Khan in the Reliant takes place in 2285 as per the "Star Trek Chronology" by the Okudas. And a case might be made for making it later than that. This IS helpful in explaining how the incredibly technically advanced Enterprise from "The Motion Picture" was treated as a bit obsolete in TWOK. Indeed, it was withdrawn from active service and was a training ship. The admiral declaring the Enterprise to be "20 years old" is clearly wrong. Albeit, the 2271 refit was SO extensive that it really is essentially a different ship than the TOS Enterprise. So, the timing the admiral was using could have come from that? He's still wrong, but could be rounding up; I like to think that movies II to IV took place in the late 2280's. So, it's not unreasonable that the Reliant might have been built, or heavily refit, in the 2280's. In my mind, the firepower and utility represented by the Miranda Class's internal volume and dual hanger decks, and the coming Excelsior Class as the new premier Heavy Cruiser made the Constitution obsolete for matters beyond age or technology. The Excelsior was set to take over as the big gun heavy cruiser, and Mirandas could multi-task well as middle weight cruisers as both credible frontline ships, interceptors and also just workhorse duties. Nor were the Constitution ships all being phased out. The Enterprise was SUPPOSED to be refitted, but the damage against Khan made the powers that be to change their minds. And, the Yorktown became the Enterprise A; so there was still life in the class. But, the ship, as the Enterprise A, would not have a long service before it was mothballed; so I'd have to assume the class's years were numbered. But, again, there might be wiggle room to push events back even in the 2290's, towards the movie "Generations" and the launch of the Enterprise B. Enterprise A might well have been mothballed to provide a illustrious name to a new, premier heavy cruiser?

[@darrelgibbs4898]

I have That movie And I love that movie

[@mrandrossguy9871]

I wonder why ST ships turned more Oblong Saucer in later years, I'm sure there's a vid about that ! With the whole Gene Roddenberry and Matt Jefferys Design Philosophy - like the Round Saucer represents All Aspects or Circle of Life type stuff !?

[@deaks25]

The Miranda's career actually has parallels with 20th Century naval destroyers; ships that had been First Class units in the 1910/20's had become, at best, Second Class units bey the 1940's, but when you need ships, you take what you can. I'm sure I've seen (Maybe Beta Canon) info suggesting the Centaur class was supposed to replace the Miranda's, mirroring the Excelsior's replacing the Constitution's as the main cruiser, but the Excelsior building program meant there wasn't the dockyard space for enough Centaur's so Starfleet kept the Miranda in operations, downgrading them to lower threat tasks such as internal patrols, anti-piracy etc, where it would still be the meanest fish in the pond. The Miranda's, for all the on-screen Red-Shirt-ing they get, probably made pretty good escorts for larger ships/fleet. They were fast enough, were easy to modify and upgrade so could be running relatively modern systems, weapons, warp core etc. We do briefly see two running interference with the Defiant fairly successfully; they can manoeuvre with the Defiant and provide fire support, it's only when Dominion ships start to focus fire on them that they get mullered. One suspects if Starfleet had the swam of Defiant class that was intended by the original design doctrine, the Miranda's wouldn't have needed to be there, which again feeds into my theory of "We need ships, any ships". Let's not forget, that some of these ships are 100 years or more old, so to be able to anything at all in the Dominion war, says a lot for how good the design actually was.

[@cdlord80]

EC Henry did the math and found the Miranda had more internal volume than the Constitution. I 3d printed both ships to scale and confirmed with a displacement test.

[@sim.frischh9781]

EC Henry made a video comparing the volumes of Miranda and Constitution, resulting with the Miranda being actually the BIGGER ship, displacement wise. So the warp core should be either the same or even BIGGER. He measured and came to the Miranda being about 19% larger than the Constitution despite being ~70 meters shorter. Here is the video if you are interested: kzbin.info/www/bejne/n4O2dYaAmt2Ae6M

[@hudsonball4702]

incorrect. it was NOT the fisrt "other ship" of starfleet that we saw after the Constitution. Way saw the Daedalus class in the animated series.

[@Rocketsong]

Starfleet is chronically under-budgeted. I always figured that the Miranda Class was Starfleet's way of getting the most hulls for the credit. Half the price of a Constitution but 2/3rds as capable.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

in fairness i wouldn't say starfleet was underfunded. but they do make ensure every penny is well spent and streamline production where possible.

[@grantt1589]

I think it was the original replacement for the constitution but Excelsior replaced it instead

[@-randychasechase2660]

For a ship that could have a crew of 325. At it beginning. You think with a crew of 45 in the end. Those empty spaces could have been given new up grades weapons. Like micro multi torpedo and more fazer strips

[@toomanyaccounts]

there is so much you can do. the automation has limits.

[@DarinRWagner]

The only evidence that the Mirandas did poorly in the Dominion War was that one shot where two of them alongside the Defiant got wrecked. LOTS of ships got wrecked during the Dominion War. Given how much more maneuverable the Miranda's were demonstrated to be during the Dominion War versus their first appearance, I'd say there's just as much evidence that they rose to the task.

[@megacide84]

If Starfleet had Maranda class ships (TOS variant) They certainly would have won the Battle at the Binary Stars.

[@jimminey-fooking-cricket4903]

The Miranda class the Panzer IV and UH-1 Huey of the future.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

an excellent comparison especially with the Panzer 4 given the number of variants both saw.

[@venzybierxski7672]

It's a classic.

[@blueneptune5860]

That ship was awesome minus the name of class. I will make a real flying one now that shape is perfect.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

i presume its named after Prospero's Daughter Miranda in Shakespeare 'The Tempest'

[@mrandrossguy9871]

The dominion War was StarTrek turning into StarWars !? I mean really, might as well just made full on War Star Ships/Battleships/Battlestars/StarDestroyers etc. Because what that really gave birth to was the Sovereign Class Tactical Battle Cruiser which had Defiant type Guns and Voyager type tech !? But yeah SPACESHIPS XD

[@jamesnealii8370]

I think you meant to say it was constructed in the 2270s and said 2370s by mistake a simple verbal error no big deal

[@joeclerkin2653]

The hull is made from 90% explodium...

[@Eshanas]

I wish we saw this in a TOS configuration, but if it appears in SNW it may just be DSC'd.... That, or like FASA canon, a close predecessor, because the Connies were the sort of Gloryhounds, the Mirandas were the hoo-hum cruisers doing a lot of work. But, here's a hurrah to the old Mirandas. For the TNG Era, they should had at least added phaser strips, some bigger windows, and TNG era nacelles, just to show off a 'modernized' version, same with the Excelsiors. They stick out too much with 2270-2280 livery in 2360-2370 IMO.

[@weldonwin]

If a Constitution Class is a Conny, does that make a Miranda Class a Minnie?

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

thats actually pretty fitting. lets make it happen!

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

good point about the windows they make it quite austere next to the glowing glittering galaxy class. i can't imagine it was particularly pleasant especially if you were used to 24th century interiors. so yeah some more lights and more glowing from the nacelles might have been nice.

[@suzumiyaharuhi3438]

Just like the Shermans in WWII.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

interesting comparison

[@valor1omega]

To be fair not even the galaxy class could deal with the dominion ships. Only reason the defiant did well was because it was the Mary sue ship of ds9. Give the Miranda class the same upgrades as the Lakota refit which outclassed the Defiant and I think the Miranda class would have faired better during the dominion war.

[@jessemay1547]

Still almost my favorite of all time next to the Constitution refit. Almost a tie.

[@ISAF_Ace]

I think that the Miranda class is a perfect example of the federation as it is like they cannot let go of the past even when it is practically begging to be retired. Don’t get me wrong I like the Miranda class but it was kept in past it’s time. Like a ww2 hurricane, at its time it was the peak at its time but if it was kept around today in the Air Force it would be more of a liability. Let it rest and have it be a happy memory not a symbol of your weakness of your military.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

precisely but also 'How dare you insult the Venerable Hurricane If its good enough for Granddad Its Good enough for Me!'

[@ISAF_Ace]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 well I would take a WW2 cruiser over a modern one today, tomorrow and for the rest of my life. same way I would take a Jupiter class over a mercury class.

[@athrunzala6919]

I regret that Sisko served absurd one at Wolf 359, I think it would have made more sense for this class to have been mothballed decades earlier and Cmdr Shelby rebuilding the fleet would involve upgrading the class to serve for a decade while new ships were built.

[@victorroche5044]

The unposed question - Would starfleet had been better served if Centaurs had replaced Miranda's in the Dominion War?

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

perhaps the problem you had with the centaurs was getting the bloody thing to work properly but in an ideal world yes.

[@ISAF_Ace]

The centaur was more warp patrol wasn’t it? The Cheyenne class would have been better but lacked the agility of the Miranda class. I think a few more New Orleans class ships would not have killed anyone

[@victorroche5044]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 With the Centaur, your getting a more modern ship (and upgradeable a la USS Lakota) at the cost of hanger space the Miranda provides. Curry makes up some of the hanger space on a similar upgradeable spaceframe. Yeager is too dumb to fit in my canon.

[@richardtrue2758]

Should be replaced by the Sabre class the best ship for the job

[@ISAF_Ace]

@@richardtrue2758 the sabre was a very good picket ship to fill the gap between the defiant class which was more like the Normandy. meant to work in fleets but capable of going on solo ops. the reason I think that the new Orleans class or nebula should have been produced more was because they had the ability to be used in combat situations whereas the sabre class has a limited mission profile, in face a few more ambassador class ships would not have been missed.

[@thewargod1995]

There is no cannon for how these ships faired in the dominion war. These ships are the predecessors of the Nebulas, which you said were not very maneuverable while you are saying this one is. I'm not sure where you get your back history from but supposedly the Reliants were refits of the Antons which served in the 4 years war. They suck around forever not by choice by by necessity. Chances are a great many of those ships were mothballed but after the borg attacks and the random wars Star Fleet fought they needed ships. They were modular and so it was easy to upgrade their weapons, shields, sensors and engines.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

i the nebula shipchat i pointed out that the nebula really is the odd one out from the 3. the miranda being a refit of a TOS design; im torn on because i like TOS miranda's but i can't think of a sensible reason why they'd do that. i do agree that they had a lot mothballed.

[@igncom1]

Well to be fair, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want. If Mirandas are all the federation has, then that is what it'll use. I mean they were still using refitted Excelsiors when even the Ambassador that was supposed to replace them, has been replaced by the Galaxy!

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

true if there's one thing you can say about starfleet its that they are sentimental and hesitant to retire their most beloved designs.

[@winkles2314]

And by 2409 they were frigates, according to STO

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

THEY WERE STILL IN SERVICE!???

[@paulrasmussen8953]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 yup, they are your first command

[@timothyhiggins8934]

In its early years it was a bad ass. But to me, by the Border Wars it was too old. It should have been seen through its mediocre combat performance against the lowly cardassians at the time. Good video

[@robmckee5295]

What's up with the lack of a deflector?

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

the most common explanation is that it embedded into the saucer, maybe in the same place as the nx-01? but yes most people give this particular ship a pass in that regard...

[@paulrasmussen8953]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 could be those two tubes on the dorsal side

[@reidtyndall4953]

I like your videos. If you’re willing to hear it though I have a slight suggestion. Towards the end you start saying “uh, um, and-um” a lot. It detracts from your excellent presentation.

[@shampoo100]

its build in the 2270s and not the 2370s

[@ivaylomladenov3185]

".....it was little bit long in the tooth....." - Oh....., "british people"..... - i honestly think you are a living "human treasures", - of ear-juy..... :)

[@richardtrue2758]

It doesn't have the same torpedo launcher as the Connie only has two forward launchers where the Miranda has two forward launchers and two aft and has 7 standard phaser banks and 4 mega phasers the original name wasn't Miranda it was the Avenger class they changed it because it sounded to much like a warship which it was during the age of the Klingon cold war

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

i would say only 2 heavy phasers i don't think we even see them firing backwards. and i see what you mean the enterprise torpedo module blending into the hull so your right they would need another Aft launcher. but i only see 6 phaser banks on the Miranda 3 dorsal 3 ventral on the saucer.

[@richardtrue2758]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 That's true we only see them firing forwards but looking at 1/350 scale model the phaser emitter point both ways if not they do in my head canon

[@richardtrue2758]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 In one of the old Star Trek magazines said that there one aft phaser below the impulse engines but it's not on any of the models so it's more hear say then anything

[@starsiegeplayer]

@@richardtrue2758 There are two phaser emitters below the impulse engine. They can be seen on the filming model.

[@richardtrue2758]

@@starsiegeplayer Nice didn't know that thanks

[@Lord_Shadowz]

The federation is using the Miranda even in 2410!!! I don’t know why you say it’s career is over? They are STILL being used! There’s nothing wrong with this. Look at the Klingons. They use ship hulls for centuries!

[@richard1701able]

Then why did Starfleet make it out of One-hit-and-it-blows-upium?

[@Sephiroth144]

*Remembers Wrath of Khan* You sure about that ship composition?

[@richard1701able]

@@Sephiroth144 absolutely. I'm one hundred billion trillion gagillon percent.

[@Sephiroth144]

@@richard1701able Weird; I recall the Reliant slapping the Enterprise around a bit, Mirandas being a core ship during the Cardie wars, and some Miranda taking a full hit from the Borg, and got messed up- but didn't get half its saucer melted like an Excelsior...

[@richard1701able]

@@Sephiroth144 The USS Reliant attacked the USS Enterprise with direct hits to the Engineering Section from its Mega Phasers. The USS Enterprise's shields were down and the multiple hits did not do any damage that the Enterprise couldn't repair. It chased off the Reliant and was battle ready in a few hours. When the situation was reverse and it was the Enterprise's turn to attack, the Reliant didn't last long, proving which is... was the superior ship design. When we see Miranda Class ships and its variants in TNG it's often always as a ship in distress (USS Brattain, USS Lantree, etc). Think of the Miranda like the M4 Sherman tank of World War 2. It was quick to build, quick to be destroyed and quick to be replaced. Take the The USS Bozeman (NCC-1941, a Soyuz variant) it's entire class was decommissioned in the 23 century as it was cheap just to build the standard Miranda Class spaceframe and put mission specific equipment on it. When it went to battle in the 24th century it didn't do much better than it did in the 23rd. Just look at the USS Majestic and the USS Sitak in Operation Return. While the USS Defiant was taking hit after hit, its escorts (The aforementioned USS Majestic and USS Sitak) were destroy in one hit each. Starfleet didn't have enough of the Saber Class so it had to field Mirandas. The morale on these ships must have been low as the crew must have known just how expendable they were. The only 3 ships that we know that fought in the Cardassian Boarder Wars were the USS Rutledge (Unknown registry and class, but it is believed to have been a New Orleans Class), The USS Cairo (Unknown register, Excelsior Class) and the USS Stargazer (NCC-2893, Constellation Class). The Stargazer is a good example as its class it a contemporary design to the Mirandas. The captain of the Stargazer (Whose name I forget) admitted that his ship was no match for the unnamed Cardassian ships and only survived the encounter due to the ship's speed. If a 23rd century Constellation Class was no match for 24th century Cardassian ships then the Miranda class shouldn't have faired and better. I don't want to say that the Miranda Class and it's many variants was a bad design. Starfleet didn't think so as it got many different production runs well into the 24th century; when newer designs were available and was it constantly upgraded as much as the space frame could handle. But at the end of the day a design can only last so long, and the Miranda Class was not the same ship at the end of its life as it was at the beginning. Every component on the ship had been replaced, the crew had been reduced from 220 to 35 or less, and its mission profile had changed from a patrol and picket ship to being the pride of the auxiliary fleet. For example, The USS Lantree (A 23rd centaury ship still in operation) was a deployed as a Class 6 Federation supply ship AKA a freighter not a Starship; and the USS Saratoga (A much new ship than the USS Lantree) was an explorer and science ship kept in the deep core of the Federation. It only took part in the Battle of Wolf 359 because it close by. Speaking of the USS Saratoga at the Battle of Wolf 359, it was taken out in one hit by the Borg's cutting beam and left to drift as it was longer a threat. Don't forget the USS Saratoga had something the Excelsior-class USS Melbourne didn't have in the battle against the Borg. Plot Armour. The USS Melbourne could have had it if Riker had accepted his promotion, but it is doubtful that he would got to it in time. In conclusion I will sum up by comparing the Miranda Class to Disco (The music genre). It was important in its time and it may still be around in one from or another, but we've moved on to bigger, better and more modern things. (I hope that sounded as good in your head as it did in mine.)

[@Sephiroth144]

@@richard1701able Let's talk about the Reliant first, because in doing so, you have to talk about the goals of the commanders. Khan's in the first battle was to cripple, humiliate, and then likely slowly destroy the Enterprise. He didn't want to destroy her, not until he get the Genesis info, nor before Kirk knew "who it was who had beaten" him. And he definitely was over-confident; should have sheared off a nacelle or two, but didn't. But the return fire from the Enterprise severed his weapons control (and bonked the observation dome) but that's it. Then, its on to Mutara- "the Enterprise's damage was repaired". So was the Reliant's- and the Reliant had people who had, what, a handful of people who had a week of learning Starfleet vessels? Compared to a full staffed ship, (trainees, but repairing stuff is WHAT YOU LEARN if you're a mechanic in the military). And don't forget, the Enterprise wasn't fully repaired, not by a long shot. Not full power, mostly tactical systems back, even with that. And Mutara showed (even explicitly stated) that the experience was highly unequal- if you put comparable crews in the ships, it would have been much closer, (probably closer to 55/45) To use RPG terms, the Constitution (Refit) has more HP and probably DEF (shields), but less ATT (both had the 6 phaser banks across the saucer), but then the Miranda has both fore and after photon launchers, as well as the heavy mounted phaser cannons. Likewise, the Miranda-Class was more maneuverable than the Constitution. Oh, and since you brought up the Soyuz/Bozeman... you DO remember how, when nacelles collided, that random Galaxy-Class ship exploded, repeatedly, across every timeline shown, whereas the Bozeman *checks notes* did not. Which one was made of blows-upium again?

[@brianjohnson5272]

Navies refit old vessel all the time. Being a lighter contemporary of the constellation class the Miranda would have been refit as well to hold the Klingon's at (Botany) Bay. I spent 45 mins rebutting this point and a hand spasm erased it. I have fought this fight on SFC 1 and 2 over a hundred times this fight, if Khan hadn't snuck up the Enterprise would have turned the Reliant into a burning hulk. A constitution had slightly greater firepower, engine power (the deciding factor) and could take a bigger beating and still punch back on even ground. This is a light cruiser (Naval designation CL) the Reliant, Vs. a battle cruiser (ref ST 3) (Naval designation BC) Thats not one but two classes above a CL so it's a heavy weight vs. a lightweight. On SFC I have played the Enterprise with shields down until first strike, shields up pre strike, the mutara nebula, fought around Regula one, used shuttles as bombs, missile racks, anti missile, etc. So I've basically done it all but auto destructed near the Miranda. In a straight fight the Miranda's shields even reinforced with every ounce of reserve power can take 3-4 alpha strikes (fire everything) at close (not point blank) range with a 66-75% torpedo hit rate. While a constitution can take that +1-2 alpha strikes with reserve power to forward shields at close range. So by the time the Reliant could knock a shield down it's taken 2 alpha strikes to her hull (basically on a good run that's a mission kill not a destruction). Before someone brings it up yes I know NOT CANON and FYI federation shields were equally powered around a ship (Klingon's weren't and a HET 180 and a single alpha strike would cripple a D7 pre shield refit).

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

i wouldn't know we tend to just scrap our entire fleet in favor for a shiny new one. interesting and i would be inclined to agree. although i would argue while the Connie is faster overall at warp it doesn't enjoy the same acceleration and agility of the Miranda. i also wouldn't say the Connie is that much more heavily armed it has the same torpedo launcher the same phasers on its saucer it perhaps only has 2 or 3 more on the engineering hull and its a bigger slower target and the Miranda has those powerful heavy pulse Phasers.

[@brianjohnson5272]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 in peace we do mothball older ships this I agree. Yet during the 3 big wars (cold war Klingon, Cardassian, dominion) ESPECIALLY with the Klingon's hulls were needed to keep the Klingon's at Bay (they pre Praxis a war budget of several lesser empires) post khitomer the Miranda went into mothball until the Cardassian war. The Cardassians ship were in the beginning at best 2 generations behind the Miranda in most tech fields (sensors, shields, warp field). So they were recommissioned brought up to standard for the day and sent to the line with good success (though her limits showed at the end of that war.) Again with the federation high on a treaty mothballed the ships when they should have been scrapped (hubris kills). With the dominion war there one advantage in a fight was taken. It's agility. The Jem'hadar fighters were equal in firepower smaller and far more agile. Thus this beautiful, venerable design was finally surpassed. With the need of hulls they were again pulled back into service refit and went out. With many lost because her best asset (agility) wasn't the best in these fights. Those heavy phasers on the sponsons had two flaws I see. First is the firing arcs. 45 degrees ventral is just bad! I can dip a ship below her ecliptic at close range and unless she risks collision she can't bring them to bear. Secondly they are on sponsons. A lucky (or targeted) hit can cripple one of them causing her to be combat ineffective (a mission kill) and since all federation ship fed phaser power directly from the warp drives (STMP, and ST 2) I quote "they have damaged the photon control and the warp drive" end quote. With the warp drive damaged they couldn't power those phasers and driven off. Decker in STMP (I haven't seen it in awhile so I can't quote it) points out to Kirk that phaser power is now diverted directly from the warp drive so when an imbalance is there the phasers a cut off. The sponsons will have power conduits going through them to both the phasers and the photon launcher. A solid hit at or below the heavy phaser will kill BOTH! Even with secondary power conduits the power and fire rate will be reduced.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

yeah so the cardassian Kulinor could Match the Miranda and that was a 2350s design. and for its time and its class it is a very agile vessel but as you say it wasn't ever meant to fight something like the jem'hadar. and it is true that the Phaser and Torpedo Module is vulnerable but in fairness this is basically the first 'Modular' ship so they were still working it out.

[@brianjohnson5272]

@@venomgeekmedia9886 alpha designs are like that.

[@robertbarrows6687]

Hey, next Ship Chat...can you cover the Venator and Victory-class Star Destroyers from the Clone Wars and compare and contrast them?

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

i'd love to. unfortunately KZbin doesn't like it when i try to cover star wars it always seems to punish me views wise. the best thing for those who wan't Star Wars content is to become Channel Members or Donate to my paypal so i don't have to worry so much about videos taking off.

[@EdricLysharae]

If *The Lower Decks* had been a show set in the pre-TNG era, they likely would have been on a Miranda.

[@garthstewart6099]

Navy boys always have this huge chip on their shoulder: only a tiny fraction of your branch faces the enemy, and you have to reach back eighty years to find some glory, otherwise Navy is just an office job. Why did you create the Marines, Sea Bees, SEALS?? JEALOUSY Army, 2001-2004, 11C

[@gunny419]

Miranda Class- the ship that was good enough right up to the moment it it turned in to the CRAP this is actually quite bad, ship

[@titincat172]

*have an entire fleet refit is just un practical* USA *Let's refit all of our ship so it can stay up to date* he doesn't know how a fleet works

[@jinsetayinsei4146]

For me, she was awesome in ST II, she was just tolerable almost 100 years later in TNG, insufferable in DS9 when they could have used CG models, and infuriating when seen in games where she flies along side Sovereigns. The major refits in games are alright, and I don't mind a scheduled group by group refit program to keep these guys up to date for a while. From a lore perspective, I get where this ship was useful in chasing down Klingon harassment, but the gap between the Khitomer Accords and the Cardassian conflict is too far to justify heavy mass production of these models. They're essentially a rapid response assault vessel which is not ideal in peace time. During TOS times and especially on after, the Federation is already a massive territory. Longer sustained high warp speeds are more important when you're not at war or being harassed. I can't see a reason to produce hundreds or thousands because of harassment unless there was another border conflict I'm not aware of like something with the Romulans during this period.

[@venomgeekmedia9886]

its so cool in 'wrath of Kahn' leaner and meaner than enterprise, and surprisingly menacing. yeah the only event with the romulans is the Tomed Incident which is quite brief. its definitely a more economical option next to the connie much like how STUGs were next to the mainline Panzers. i think it boils down to stagnation. after kithomer the klingons were no longer a threat and starfleet so there was no need to develop 'Horizontally' from new designs thats why the Centaur takes so long to get off the ground and there are few derivatives of the ambassador. there was little need for 'depth'

[@jinsetayinsei4146]

So the reasoning is that Starfleet decided to keep building a successful model rather than put more resources into r&d. Sounds good to me. I do prefer to view her as outdated during the Dominion war, offering only fair odds under the best circumstances. And on the flip side of having long range vessels, a large number of rapid response vessels would fit the bill. It's little details like this that can shed some light on the Dominion war. For the Miranda, the Dominion probably saw her as a turkey hunt, and thus probably produced a lot of Federation casualties.

[@MROJPC]

Are these new production Mirandas or all legacy stock that was heavily updated/retrofitted? I always took any Dominion War era Mirandas as legacy ships fulfilling supply/logistics roles and even hulls being pulled out of mothball and being heavily updated.

[@larqven0192]

@@MROJPC No new Mirandas, they were way old. They were being slowly phased out, but they were still a major component of Star Fleet. Some of them were downgraded from armed 'Starships' to be refitted to science ships, or were just used as support or transport ships. Doubtlessly, a lot of them were mothballed.

[@winkles2314]

I like the uses of them in TNG as largely automated science vessels and transports. Seems like they’re only chucked into the fray if there isn’t much of a choice.

[@Phil-D83]

Flying coffin

[@MrJcn89]

First!

[@monsieurdubitatif8567]

deuxieme

[@Phil-D83]

Flying coffin