Shockingly Bad Training Revealed by Heat Pump Whistleblower

Roger and Mike discuss the quality of the training offered by one of the major players in the air source heat pump space.
Check out the ‪@HeatGeek‬ 'Master the Heating & Renewables Industry' training course.
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[@HeatGeek]

We give figures on our channel!

[@HeatGeek]

@@mike-ology22 all on the way

[@HeatGeek]

@@mike-ology22 thanks for your meantions! Much appreciated! Good luck in your new job.. awesome company

[@HeatGeek]

@@mike-ology22 go to our website and fill in the contact form. I might give you a call bud if I get 2 secs.

[@HeatGeek]

@@Storm.Z.4u you can't manipulate the system COP.. its calculated on use...

[@HeatGeek]

@@Storm.Z.4u who has a cold house? Something wrong with the system design f its ever below target room temperature. Both of the people in thos video will tell you that 👍

[@marcusp905]

I know a company that trained 20 lads with a One week at the heat pump manufacturing firm 17 of the lads had no plumbing experience 😳

[@yrification]

Sounds like plumbers dealing with the equivalent of part p 🤣 one day course doing your own electrical work 🤘

[@arieveloo9808]

Great video thank you so much!

[@Accringtonman]

Thank you both! As I'm sure the Heat Geeks would agree, the key is system design. Very few gas boiler installs involve any system design. Most are retrofits and most of these are combis, the power of which is determined by hot water demand so there's nearly always a big margin for space heating. Add to this, few customers would want to pay for any system design. So I believe the knowledge of heating system design is thin on the ground, whether for boilers or heat pumps. The grunt work of putting in a heat pump involves the same plumbing and wiring skills as a gas boiler. On my self-build I went to Nu-Heat as they support self-installers. I sought them and there was no sales pitch. They did the system design for my heat pump and underfloor system, produced a superb set of diagrams and supplied the kit with no errors. When I'd put it all in, they commissioned it and gave it the MCS sign-off. Because the build was slow, the excellent relationship lasted several years and involved many technical questions, all of which were answered clearly. The system is nearly a year old and has been performing flawlessly from day one - I've never had cause to go back to Nu-Heat. The point of this is truly not some smug sermon - I wasn't Mr Smart-arse designer - it's merely that system design is the foundation, and without it, as Mike has shown, installers are in effect going into combat unarmed, and trouble is nearly inevitable. If I did one thing right it was giving this job to people who knew what they were doing. Nu-Heat do installer training but I didn't avail myself of it because I was only doing my own system - I'm now retired. (I'm not on commission by the way :)

[@logik100.0]

Well done SB for exposing the crap being pushed on the public

[@speculawyer]

LOL, he screwed people because natural gas prices are FIVE TIMES higher than last year.

[@ram64man]

totally agree with everything that has been said here. I had three different companies turn up to convert an 1940's build from a regular setup to air to mini split twin 11kwh setup, this heat calculation that engineers were asked to do is a complete scam, the first visit was a sales man with Zero morels , the cost £19,000 plus cost for an electrician fuse box upgrade, he was shown the door, second company clearly didn't have a clue, after an hour of listening to dribble I asked him to leave, 3 engineer clearly from a credible gas background, did a full cost analysis like the others were supposed to do, the property had a cop rating of just 2,3 , and was honest with me, to ask why spend all this when you could easily do a system setup that met my needs, you know what I took his advice, granted the upgrade did need a complete upgrade we went from a full micro bore to 28mm and underfloor heating on ground for future proofing just in case but that was ok since the house was in full renovation. total cost 6290. it sounds a lot but this included all the radiators, pipe work in copper, redesign system 210 tank plus twin solar diverter, and 4 days to complete. so far ZERO issues, the gas hasn't gone on since april, the solar heats the tank in the day, the overkill in insulation has basically meant when it did kick in, thanks to the smart thermostats and multi room sensor setup it hasn't even needed to output its full 15kw to heat. last years bill 359 to heat a 4 bedroom can't be bad,

[@mentality-monster]

@@mike-ology22 Would like to know the same.

[@No-timeforimbeciles]

I watch the 2 videos you do together with 'Heat Geek', was interesting. We live in a house which is much more than 200 years old, all stone, walls 1mtr thick. We have woodburner in resting room & a wood fire cooking range with large back boiler which heats 9 1.5mtr long double radiators also it gives us hot water, if range is good stocked, radiators can get almost too hot to touch. I did all pipework myself, it works good now for nearly 15 years, I downloaded the diagram from old Rayburn installation, it is open vented with a reservoir hidden in bedroom above the range, it is old system installation, with 35watt 3 speed pump installed on cold water pipe into the range (28mm pipes for first 5-6mtrs, then down to 16mm pipes to radiators. In winter it gets minus 20c+. All the time we get calls from heatpump companies on the phone & at the door, some come in & put their sales talk to us, but when we explain our heating they agree heat pump cannot come close to what we pay for our system, we have 2.5 hectares of woodland which we replant hardwood trees when we have space. I got impression maybe 'Heat Geek' is sponsored to promote heat pumps, maybe I am wrong, but there are many companies trying to sell them, I do not think they will stay too long promoting them, thy are not good for all circumstances, I only wish they would leave us alone. Thank you for your videos, I watch many of them 😊

[@Welton_Family]

Great Vid Roger. Mike is a star !! Very committed, questions everything, I hope he’s still doing Heat Pumps, I’d have him on a job anytime. 👍

[@garethburrell6101]

It’s unfortunately all to common in the trade big companies and the government create a demand with little research or training people. Then those at the top drag as much money out make a packet and fold the company once the grants are finished. Then leave the customer carrying the can.

[@arniet1]

The ASHP in my home, is just as costly in winter to heat up my home as it was when i previously had coal fired heating and hot water. The difference being that the house is colder overall now in winter, it takes 2 days to dry clothes rather than half a day and weve lost the use of a whole walk in wardrobe space cos of the heat pump install which basically looks like a micro set up for a moonshine producing business. The other frustration is, you go to have a bath, you have to plan it when the heat pump isn't in heat the home mode because if you use that amount of hot water for a bath, it'll transfer from heating the home to reheating the hot water at the detriment of then losing crucial time for home heat.

[@I-am-not-a-number]

I have logs and 2 wood burners. Being a carpenter, I love to recycle.

[@grrinc]

Same here. Every week I’m able to bring home wood from my bathroom and kitchen installations.

[@marcusp905]

Don't forget to have it swept !!by NACS chimney sweep 👍😉

[@TurinTuramber]

People usually don't like burning tanalised timber, except outside.

[@grrinc]

@@Storm.Z.4u yup. China doesn’t give a damn, neither do I.

[@amiddled]

Great, but if lots of people did that, the local air quality would be in the toiler with all the particulate matter.

[@shogun666able]

Nice to meet Mike, Roger, as alot of heat pimp installers have not a clur about the heating game, much like the GAs Safe enginneers from 6 months ago driving a bus and with a bit of so called trianing as a few fiddled photos and statements they become full blown gas enginneers. I have actually had this same conversation with Gas Safe so called top men that werent at the time regisitered engineers and started out as mud men to the Gas Board. That meeting went on in a trianing house where I said to one of them I would fault a boiler for him to fix, he didn't even try and said he wouldn;t have a clue. All this is is just another run around as double glazing was and the taking by the nstaller of governmant money. So incase your wondering what my background is I am a time served heating engineer gas and arc coded welder now retire at 73 having in my time for years 21 fitters working for me, so pretty much done it all and designed alot.

[@sasa1982uk]

If air con and heat pump installers are wearing white trainers they are fully qualified.

[@lesparker2529]

Hi Roger When I first looked at your videos on heat pumps, I didn't like them I thought you were wrong and in some sense I still believe that, but on one issue I agree with you and that is install, I was very lucky and the install was over two days and all items were brought to site on the first day, the company I used have helped brilliantly with small issues I had at the start and recently I talked to the installer who gave me his phone number about how to drain and refill the system because I changed the rads to the best heat efficient models, he was great and I have done the work learned how the system works and it back in service and working fine, if the installers were not experienced then I fully understand why heat pumps get bad press. The company I used was Project Heating Solutions who I would recommend to anyone👌

[@Mr7samuel7]

The volumiser increases open water loop volume, this could help in two ways: Stored heat available for defrost as mentioned in this video the other benefit of larger system volume is to help minimise stop/starts on the compressor which should help with longevity as well

[@bikerchrisukk]

Nice chat, cheers for sharing 👍 You've said it before Roger, but a real shame that they might really put gas prices up to make lecky appealing. As you know though, that just means potentially more inefficient homes out there which is surely bad for that environment thingy? Proof of the pudding to me is if new blocks of flats have air source, perfect location for them on the roof surely, despite the additional weight? Don't see many of those though, anyone?

[@speculawyer]

Who is the "they" you speak of? War criminal Vladimir Putin is the main person responsible for high gas prices.

[@zagan1]

An air con/heat pump same thing is the most efficient method to transfer temperature. But you do need the right size unit for the job

[@nickhickson8738]

Excellent and illuminating conversation.

[@sonnyd198]

I live in social housing and recently been informed that the landlord is planning on installing air source heat pump systems later this year(as the government are paying for it ) obviously my concern is that its going to substantially raise my electricity bill if not installed as efficiently as possible. Im just wondering if somebody could give me a some of the most important specific questions that i need to put to them to make sure they know what they're doing and that the contractor that they are using wasn't just the one that gave them the cheapest quote! Thank you, david

[@roders97]

Very interesting video, main problem is mp's making the rules have no practal experience in heating engineering or refrigeration they hear of somthing and say we will run with that but don't have sufficient knowledge to know if it is practiçal or don't care but it will make them look good.

[@irbfenian2594]

Good, informative chat lads, thanks

[@andytrewin]

energy prices - its all a conspiracy IMHO

[@Chanesmyname]

Great discussion, really enjoyed it.

[@briangeoffrey5436]

quick question about glycol: what is the snag using in rads. At what dilutions does it clog versus being useful. Is there any benefit and has it ever been tried? My system was assessed by a responsible heat pump installer, who turned me down as i have micro-bore, while another company suggested the low loss header. We do have enough space at the back of the integral garage for the “volumiser” i.e hot water tank and other equipment required. One house on my estate had new channels chased out in the concrete for 15mm when the house was unoccupied.

[@TC-V8]

The problem with Glycol is it can transfer less heat than pure water - so if the rad sizing is marginal it will make their heat output even worse.

[@HeatGeek]

Importantly the training that's lacking is heating training, not heat pump training!

[@HeatGeek]

Mike Jarratt. I will give you our awakening heating design course absolutely free of charge. Contact.

[@HeatGeek]

@@mike-ology22 I disagree bud. Understanding that stuff makes you a much better installer.. and again understanding that links the install with the commissioning.. the commissioning should understand the specific install and the installer Understand the commissioning. Thankyou for sharing our channel! If the growth is due to you, you must have shared alot! Much appreciated!

[@HeatGeek]

Thanks for the meantion! Real world running costs on the way and Roger will hopefully be coming along to see 😁

[@effervescence5664]

@@HeatGeek Mike unfortunately is right, many of the larger companies are splitting design, install and commissioning between people so they can throw them in as fast as possible with as high a profit as possible before the industry catches up. Sadly the commissioning side is normally what lets it down. Many of us engineers share your channel to customers and other engineers and although we haven't always agreed with how you present your videos the course is top notch and worth doing even if you're not going to be fitting Heat Pumps. That said we are a firm believer in being multi-skilled so all our heating engineers are electrically and gas qualified now. Diversity is a must in the upcoming future.

[@MrSparkyAprilia]

I built a 5000 square foot house, had a heat pump fitted after having a professional firm design my system, they consulted with throughout the house design (insulation wise) to make sure it was sustainable system. We now pay a third of the total energy costs of our previous house which was 6 times smaller. Moral of the story is do your research, work with a knowledgeable and reputable firm and these systems work great if they are engineered properly for the application.

[@mrsuperpants6019]

My first alarm bell going off is Mike not knowing about joists until watching Skillbuilder's video on it...surely part of normal plumbers training??

[@mrsuperpants6019]

@@mike-ology22 Hey Mike, sorry I mis-heard tha start of what you said about it as "you've just got a video on...", but listening back, I think you said "I've just got a video on floor joists, and I didn't know, we hadn't been trained on any of that". It's the same rules and calcs for notching, regardless of the pipe size, but very unlikely to find a wooden joist a big enough size in many homes in the UK that you could cut through as you say. Good on you for leaving somewhere encouraging bad practices. My comment wasn't meant as a direct dig at you, I just find it really frustrating how the basics don't seem to be known/followed and then companies like the one you were at are allowed to 'train' people on heatpumps for a week and then they are allowed to let loose on someone's house. The whole industry needs se reform in my opinion. Those guys working on the gas too - I agree with you, there's no way they are really trained, so setting dodgy going on. Great to see your honest chat with Roger, even if the alarm bells are still ringing 😉🤣

[@simonclark8290]

It's a shame that most of this discussion is just a rant about things completely unlreated to heat pump technology. Nearly all of the problems disucssed here apply equally to retrofit gas installs; hopefully by a plumber who knows how to notch joists. Skill Builder IMHO would be better off describing the problems yes, but more importantly offering skilled solutions based on years of experience. There's no point complaining that technology is making it harder as this is not going to change. Just give the controls to a 3 year old and they'll program it all for you ;-)

[@hardlybentspoke1506]

Thanks Roger. Yeh, I realize this is about six months late and a hundred words too long, but the topic is still very current. I'm an 85-year-old "pensioner" in the USA, in a house constructed in 2016. The original owner had ductless heat pumps installed, which we naively assumed would be up to the task of heating/cooling the house. However, the two ceiling "handlers" were woefully inadequate, since they couldn't distribute the air to other rooms. So, we paid big bucks to have an additional pump installed, feeding two wall mount heads. That helped keep the house heated/cooled. But last Fall the primary pump refused to provide much heat. It reminded me of a pump in another house where the shuttle valve jammed. A call to the local heating company resulted in a two week wait, then the tech screwed around and determined that we needed a new set of thyristors. We've been keeping the place lukewarm with oil-filled resistance heaters plus the second heat pump, fed via the house's marginal wiring. Wait another two weeks, a different tech installs the thyristors, but says we need a new main circuit board. Another two or three weeks later, another tech installs the board without any result, prods around and says we'll need the heating/cooling shuttle valve replaced, maybe parts plus "four or five hours" labor. I'm thinking the next step might be to find that the compressor needs replacing. At that point I asked a sales person for a quote to replace the entire heat pump unit. Two weeks later, the bid was over $7,000, just for a replacement outside pump only, no additional capacity or zones. Since then I've been researching heat pumps and starting to think along Roger's path. Since we need cooling here as well as heating, I'm inclined to stick with heat pumps, but I'm now thinking about one of the DIY systems that comes with compressor, heads, and lines, all precharged with refrigerant. At my age I think I could just about get up and down a ladder, and do the install, for around $4k. Whatever, I have a grudge against the original heating company, a mental plan to never darken their door, and a newfound negative feeling toward heat pumps.

[@identitywithheld1027]

If you contact most heat pump manufacturers they offer 1.5 hours to 2 day courses.

[@garyhawkins9246]

I believe that they have Hamworthy Modumax in Downing St from what I heard in 2011 😉

[@philiphowell1505]

Have the Gas Safe regs been scrapped yet, Now retired , it cost me thousands to gain industrial certificates, just wondered who is now paying for it.

[@rosslukeshay]

HI Roger, did you every look into a combi ( hybrid) system I’m renovating an old 1901 house was hoping to use my confessing oil boiler & heat pump with UFH Thanks

[@phillsutton2246]

Great discussion it made a lot of sense

[@Dogga10001]

I’m in Australia and did a refrig/air conditioning apprenticeship for 4 years and understand how a heat pump works, not a 3 hour course on the basics. Know wonder these installs are crap. I can’t do plumbing works but a plumber can do my trade!

[@UrbanPlumbers]

I have done some appalling heat pump training myself. There is only one training course worth doing out there. The one with the kid on the skaterboard.

[@SkillBuilder]

I think that Adam is a good guy but, by his own admission, he has not worked in the domestic sector. Applying the theory in a house or flat is the other side of the battle. From what I have seen you are good at that and can think your way around a problem but there are many out there who need simple plug and play solutions. If technology is not easy to apply then it needs redesigning because there just aren't enough Geeks to make this mainstream.

[@UrbanPlumbers]

@@SkillBuilder Roger, this tech will never be plug and play. Boilers aren't plug and play - they are just being installed that way, making them much less efficient and less reliable than they could have been otherwise. With HP the problem is much more pronounced as they are less forgiving. We need better quality engineers out there not dump down tech. We need much better training and education. You are right however, there may never be enough skilled engineers to make it mainstream. It does not mean we should not try though. Heat Geek is the only viable training for heat pumps at the moment. Anything else I have been to has been a farce - and that includes manufacturer's training as well. The biggest problem I see at the moment is training centers and manufacturers giving absolutely inadequate training to engineers, giving them no chances of success on-site. This will inevitably result in very poor installations out there.

[@shadoman7682]

Somebody living opposite me had one of these installed at the beginning of this year & it sounds like a motorbike engine being reved up all the time... It's aweful...

[@earthman6700]

I know Lady that has one installed in a small council house. She demanded they turn it off as it seemed to have a mind of its own and was operating a fan during this warm weather. Costing her too much in electricity. I think she will rather suffer the cold than bills she can't pay.

[@jonwilmot5331]

A good friend of mine builds beautiful plant rooms in luxury mansions. They commission the heat recovery units ,sign them off with building control then isolate them as they are considered more trouble than they're worth.

[@43bikeguy]

This whole heat pump program needs to be suspended MPs needs to get this to a select committee who can examine these cowboys and hold the owners to account. The whole heat pump fiasco will be another huge scandal in the future.

[@Sean006]

I don't think parliaiment works that quickly. It is a bit like the captain of the Titanic getting shouts from his lookouts that there are signs of ice, so the captain convenes a meeting with his senior offices to discuss the risks. After the meeting the lookouts were told to shout really loudly when they saw 'something big'......the alarm comes up 'something REALLY big' is ahead of us.....captain in a panic puts the engines into full reverse.....5 minutes later they inevitably hit 'the big thing'. Captain - if he survives - gets promoted to the House of Lords (Admiralty)!!

[@michaeld5888]

As we see endlessly with outsourcing to companies the Government is entirely indifferent to performance and renew contracts whatever the failings. The army had to be called in to man the Olympic turnstiles for G4S a government favourite to this day. Read Private Eye for endless tales of unaccountability as far as MPs are concerned with their chums in business and probably the ex civil servants on the board or lucrative promised places in the revolving door in to business. They are more likely to give big grants to the cowboys so they can pocket the difference and charge the public what could be obtained normally. The MP or civil probably will likely to go in to partnership with any cowboy supplier they meet up with knowing a good business deal when they see it. In some ways you cannot see the corruption in the UK as it is so tightly woven in to the system and all done with Public School good manners. At the head of it so often are those people blessed with an education in good manners and a gilded toe in to high society at that premier school for scoundrels namely Eton College.

[@alan2804]

Unfortunately the MPs who form the government are the ones pushing the money making schemes for their mates…select committees are useless, its already happening by that time.

[@Sean006]

@@TONE11111 I cannot comment on every government project but I would expect that most of them had good intentions - even if it is hard to see - but invariably the implementation and management has been very poor leading to vast waste of money. The problem is that governments of all hues see taxpayers money as an infinite resource.....value for money is not part of the equation. We would build a hospital that would win design awards for the way it looked BUT go way over budget and not be fit for function without expensive re-design. The Germans would build a hospital that 'probably' looked drab but worked efficiently and came in on or under budget.

[@speculawyer]

It should be accelerated. Have you looked at natural gas prices? They are through the roof due to war criminal Putin.

[@Sean006]

Mike seemed like an honest chap. It is fairly obvious that some installers will only be interested in the money and not on the quality of their work. In such a complicated system as a heat pump there are lots of chances for mistakes....especially when training isn't seen as important. The reputation of the HP industry is going to be severely damaged by cowboys companies only interested in a quick buck.

[@peterconnolly4608]

The main point now is ,when all fails who is going to be held responsible and accountable ,suppliers or government to fix the mess ,?

[@HeatGeek]

The tax is moving over from electricity to gas because electricity is getting much cleaner and gas can't..

[@hunchanchoc8418]

What if gas goes to being Hydrogen?

[@HeatGeek]

@@hunchanchoc8418 then bills will increase 10 fold for everyone using it.

[@speculawyer]

@@hunchanchoc8418 Gas can't switch to hydrogen since the small H2 molecules leak out too easily. You can go up to 20% H2.

[@hunchanchoc8418]

@@speculawyer I hope they aren't using my money to 'invest' in future provision then.

[@neilnpr9300]

Spot on. I bet we had the same problems in the 1960/70s when gas central heating started being fitted in the average home. It was definitely the way ahead, but there probably wasn't enough knowledge or traininge at the start. Heat pumps installs and set ups are so complicated is it really a surprise the industry will need a few years to speed up. Buy a gas boiler now and reevaluate in 5-7 years when all this mess is sorted.

[@nn-uj1iv]

No.

[@speculawyer]

Buy a gas boiler now when gas prices are FIVE TIMES higher than last year? Are you mad?

[@joekool5005]

Sounds like an overly complex system. Downunder we have gas central heating for cold areas. It's really simple. You have a furnace with an air to air heat exchanger, and you have ducting like air conditioning for the air delivery. Easy. Does that exist in the UK?

[@edc1569]

Not common, here we use radiators, heat the water.

[@speculawyer]

You don't have war criminal Putin in your neighborhood that sent gas prices soaring. And you should have a heat pump that is powered by solar PV.

[@johnmcfarlane789]

yes, it is called warm air was used in the 70s .

[@minesht1]

I've looked through the comments and tried to Google, but can't figure out the name of the company. Can someone PM me with it please.

[@edc1569]

In the south of England the average house prices is £350k, yet we seem to balk at spending 2 or 3% of this on the most important system of any home, whats up with our priorities?

[@AllenHart999]

Very interesting

[@markahomer]

As with the EV car push this heating great reset is 'politically driven' not market/demand driven.

[@simonnitro9574]

I would be interested to know the name of the company in question..... For personal reasons. Can you inbox me

[@zakcollisonx]

Sounds like isoenergy!

[@router5840]

Not good it's a bit Noddy said to Big Ears, nice he came forward to explain what some firms do.

[@allanmould2633]

Great video

[@edc1569]

Lets imagine we've gone back in time, and we've decided to offer a 6 grand grant to install this new fangled gas heating technology with none of the safeguards that ensure competence, we'd be having houses exploding every day of the week. The problem is not with the technology, it is with the incompetence (disinterest) of government.

[@michaeld5888]

It does seem that technology in general is becoming more complex and expensive by the moment and we see this complexity leaving people behind. The old Moore's law that the technology becomes more integrated and cheaper so increased complexity is free has gone by the wayside. The fact that there is so much confusion on how to install this stuff and its actual cost effectiveness is a problem in itself. The heat pump people who are often interacting with this channel calling themselves geeks does give a clear indication this is complex technology needing peculiar skills. The more I try to follow this the more confused I get on what to do but after this winter there probably will no money left to do anything anyhow so that does solve the problem.

[@cliffwright1970]

I’d love to have watched this video all the way through, but I can’t stand the mandatory non-skippable double adverts that pop up every few minutes. I don’t know whether this is a setting the channel controls, or is pushed on you by KZbin, but it’s just annoying.

[@ealingbadger]

If you watch it on a computer using Firefox and a blocker such as uBlock Origin then you don't get the ads. I watch the majority of my KZbin videos on the TV though and I agree, it is very annoying. (OTOH, a channel like this has to make money somehow...)

[@richardlyons7582]

Next thing " Have you been mis-sold a heat pump sytstem call Bodgit and run no win no fee"

[@towerdave4836]

Design, design, design. We’re not yet at the point where you nip down the local builders merchant and pick a system off the shelf. Seek out those with a proven track record and avoid those who spout rules of thumb and provide unrealistic expectations of energy cost savings.

[@normanboyes4983]

Screwfix are selling them.😳

[@therealdojj]

Task life experience trumps all those flashy brochures

[@barryhaeger4284]

This is so much like my experience in Solar PV 🤕 And Roger you should look ar "Magic Heat Box" scam

[@earthman6700]

One of these damned things installed three doors away, puts out an irritating low frequency noise which is quite loud at night. I hear it when trying to sleep. I'd like to see it in bits. Lots of bits.

[@effervescence5664]

Sadly this is par for the course from what we've been called to to rectify. It is a nightmare and honestly I wish they just made a British Standard for the smart controls that everyone has to comply to. How it's wired, settings, overrides, weather comp curves etc. Sadly each manufacturer is slightly different, most work with Nest/Hive but not all and everything is a bit of a piss take. Engineers though need a commercial mind set, knowledge of electrical and building construction knowledge to be able to judge on the day the best options for how to go about the installation. Better still anyone doing a site survey needs to do more than measure rooms and take photos, they need to lift floors and actually check the type of construction methods used. The thing is when it's all planned and installed properly they are great, they're not normally cheaper to run than a combi natural gas boiler but that's often due to how people have to use a heat pump vs how they use the combi.

[@effervescence5664]

@@mike-ology22 That requires people in charge of legislation actually listening to engineers and thus far they haven't been. There are new things on the market Tepeo storage boiler (basically the GEC Nightstor from the 1970s-80s). All require to be properly sized and the construction methods used already know. On modern buildings and new builds this isn't an issue but on older buildings we've had people ask us to do a site survey after a problematic heat pump install by others only to find their solid walls are Bungaroo and actually partially hollow and thus not as thermally resistant as their original installers expected. This isn't helped by the promotion of Combi-slinging over the years by the government and industry so their was less importance placed on correct sizing and now the push of "Heat Pumps are suitable for all situations" when currently they're not. We also need a relax on protected and listed buildings if they're to be updated as converting some to district heating would mean damaging internal features or mounting heat pumps would effect the look of the exterior. The whole picture isn't being looked at though, people have locked onto something they believe is a simple fix in the hoop it's a panacea.

[@effervescence5664]

@@mike-ology22 Back in the day that's what the HVCA helped do but it seems the ball has been dropped on education for industry. I have a decent amount of knowledge but I'm a person that always likes to learn more, I've taught, trained and hold qualifications for gas/electrical/plumbing for domestic/commercial and industrial across multiple types of appliances. What I lack these days is time. Hugh is right there are standards but what we need is backwards compatibility and cross-field standards so engineers are able to plug and play existing products, example being ancient room stat controls helping to adjust the curve on weather comp Baxi boilers - it doesn't require learning something new and most engineers are more than capable of installing it, most customers also don't have to learn new habits. You are also correct in most plumbers don't bother becoming Gas qualified and get a friend/colleague to commission installation work. Every 5 years it's costing me closer to £8k for me and I don't hold catering tickets. The same goes for holding the electrical accreditation required to carry out work. Regardless of what the Government might insist on there's honestly only two criteria we have to adhere to: 1. What's suitable for the customer. 2. What's suitable for the property in the current state. Outside of that nothing matters.

[@effervescence5664]

@@mike-ology22 Honestly there's already a plethora of sources out there that our government just isn't willing to use to set the standards higher. Joe Lstiburek is a great source of building design and using those principles they've managed to get AC to a very high scop currently 7-8 in parts of the USA and Canada and even Norway as they also came up with the Perfect wall design at the same time. I wouldn't go for Heat Pumps on roofs, if you're building flat complexes brand new Ground Source Heat Pumps with district heating would be better, connected to AC or pipework or indeed both. Then use the height of the building for Solar Panels along with the sides of the buildings, as over a certain height they'll need cradles to clean glass it's fine for maintaining the panels too. Plus each panel can be tied into micro inverters locally at each apartment or into the buildings communal supply. I also suggest, Matt Risinger and the Build Show Network for US/Canada based good building practices. Currently hunting for a UK based source but unfortunately our industry hasn't really changed much since the 1990s.

[@effervescence5664]

@@mike-ology22 Oh you don't have to share them, the amount of information we've given to Panorama and alike over the years. Trust isn't really an issue for me when people are obviously already educated enough to know there's no black and white and that no one product is going to cure all. It doesn't even matter how we got here, just that we make the best of what we have and the knowledge and products available to us.

[@philipmenzies7087]

To sum it up, don't bother, because the vast majority of companies do not know what they are doing.

[@MG-qo5ge]

Blind leading the blind .....welcome to the brave new world of up skilling of course one can also enquire where you can buy superheat?

[@milorudge5110]

Totally beyond me. Can you fit one on my tent?

[@SBIGDTSM]

Air source heat pumps are the new double glazing/cavity wall/solar etc. Countless companies spring up, overprice everything, promise the world, deliver very little. Follow the money, there’s huge mark up on these things, hence why it’s so lucrative for some of the less trustworthy companies out there. What people don’t seem to realise is, the electricity bills increase a lot, so there’s minimal savings. I’ve spoken to two different people so far with these and both have said how expensive they are to run, the radiators have to be massive too to get the same output. It’s all a big con in my opinion, I’ll stick to my external oil boiler until it’s impossible not to. I’m visiting friends next week that we’re waiting to have one fitted, £20k!!! Only a 4 bed bungalow, they are getting some grant but I think it’s only £5k

[@briangriffiths114]

New regulations out on Scottish Government News website today stating that they are putting through legislation in 2023 to ensure all new domestic builds "applying for a building warrant" will have to have zero emissions heating installed from April 2024. Also working on proposals that require existing heating systems which cause emissions to be changed for a heat pump or suchlike at point of sale or when applying for a building warrant, but not firmed up as yet. No new gas boilers to be installed from 2030 in existing Scottish homes with all fossil fuel domestic heating systems replaced with zero emissions systems between 2030 and final cut off date of 2045.

[@andrewglasby6317]

There's loads of schools with heatpumps

[@GavinLawrence747]

It was so obvious that the effiency savings claims are/were just totally bogus or at best massaged to look great to the public. Some of them to my eye looked like they defied the laws of physics. Heat pumps or no heat pumps - it still doesn't reduce aggregate demand.

[@Swwils]

Yes it does, because you literally do get bonus energy when you burn gas to make electricity for heat pumps to be used for heating a building. If your design or installation is so poor that you get a overall COP of 2.5 then something has gone very wrong.

[@speculawyer]

Have you factored in that gas prices are FIVE TIMES higher than last year? This is wartime.

[@RightWing1]

If the governed are backing it then run the opposite way

[@michaelfraser5723]

24/7 NOISE and VIBRATIONS ; HEAT PUMPS.

[@logik100.0]

Government grants are me and you paying for it

[@moonshinepz]

Hat right way round ✅

[@petemoring67]

Not too sure I should say this - But I Will! - After Mike said about how BAD Plumbers can have it ... back in the day - before Porta-Loos - We had no-Where 'To Go' unless we found a bush/tree whatever ... But On Site, once the Plumber had connected everything UP! we could then use the pipe that connected to the Loo upstairs as 'our' temporary Loo - (Not Good, I Know - But It WAS How it WAS!) - One day I've had My morning Piddle down the pipe, ONLY to have the Plumber running up the stairs Screaming & Shouting with his Hair Soaking Wet!! - WE! Just BURST OUT LAUGHING Un-Contrallably 😂🤣😂🤣😂.... He'd decided to dis-connect the pipe downstairs and was working underneath it - OOPS!! .... My Brother & Me STILL Burst Out Laughing every time we reminisce about 'The Good Old Days' - And I BET that plumber is STILL Dining OFF that Story as well 😂 ... YEP! Plumbers DO Earn their Money 😉😊

[@geoffreygcotton]

I’m having a heat pump installed by Aos any views?

[@richardpaine5923]

Earn while you learn & the customer pays the price!

[@peternorman2563]

Stick to oil Heating ! I have had oil heating for 55 years and three boilers. The latest Grant boiler is brilliant and our heating bill for oil starting in 1967 to date is £18,600. The unit cost for oil today is 88 pence and in 1967 was 1.6 pence per litre. Keep it simple and you will not be ripped off !

[@stephensaines7100]

Canada, the US and many other nations have no problem publishing *all necessary engineering figures* (Many governments as well as private research institutes included) for the use of ground and air heat pump systems. It's promoted by both the US and Cdn Govt's, with both having extensive engineering and research papers published on-line. (National Research Council being one in Canada, and Dep't of Energy in the US). Many Nordic nations also publish them. But alas, according to some it seems, the UK winters are so much colder...snark. If the UK can't make this work, don't blame the Science. Blame the social and political ineptitude.

[@stephensaines7100]

Btw: Heat pumps have been commercially available and promoted (at least by Canada's National Research Council) for over fifty years. But Brits can't make it work...so we are to believe.

[@pottywotty100]

Clean fuel.Vice.have a look

[@Paul-XCIV2]

Everything I have read/watched so far on ASHP, just screams.. The market is not ready... The market is not ready... The market is not ready... The market is not ready... The market is not ready... The market is not ready... The market is not ready...

[@Allegedly2right]

Complain to who,where ? MCS not worth a carrot

[@jimgeelan5949]

I hope mike has his own company because with his attitude he will win every time, ding dong mike

[@schrodingerscat1863]

This is to be expected, for installers heat pumps are a huge cash cow at the moment because of government grants so they are all jumping on the bandwagon. The fact that heat pump systems are comparatively very complex systems needing a great deal of knowledge and experience to get right is ignored. It's all well and good specialists like Heat Geek and Urban Plumbers channels talking them up while showing their well engineered and immaculately installed systems but many will never see this instead being faced with a botched barely working mess that then costs them a fortune to sort out after paying a fortune to get the mess installed in the first place.

[@jasonrobertblake1368]

Sounds to me like these guys don't seem to know much, I am amazed at the poor quality of general knowledge with regard to pipe sizing and joist notching/drilling. These guys should not really take the title of Engineer, really these are Technicians. With Heat Pumps I generally used heat pump cylinders with buffer integrated or I used a box buffer that the cylinder could stand on. Volumisers/buffer tanks should be insulated, I have never found one that isn't. The reason for the extra pump is if the volumiser is piped as a buffer tank, nothing to do with the head to the loft. I thought glycol was going away from heat pumps with the use of anti-freeze valves, I don't like the idea of using extra heat exchangers, it generally means extra pumps/energy consumption and loss of flow temperature by 3-5 degrees. The whole thing Sounds like a complete nightmare!! I am surprised that they could make any money at it.

[@jasonrobertblake1368]

@@mike-ology22 I had to run a set of 4 x 42mm copper pipes under the floor in a Manor House once. They were all drilled and feed in piece by piece and lagged between the joists it was not possible to notch as they were too large. Thankfully the joists were deep and narrow. 35mm pipe for the primaries on a heat pump is usually on need on units above 12kW. It depends on the delta T of the heat pump, which will specify a minimum flow rate. That is why on long runs between indoor/outdoor units I would often use refrigeration pipe and a spilt heat pump system, but that was before the days of using R32/R290 flammable refrigerants.

[@michaelfraser5723]

The more evidence we can gather about this very expensive farce, the better.

[@jimh5031]

Not sure you can always blame the skill level of the installer after all "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."

[@MrSparkyAprilia]

Here we go again 🙄

[@davidallen7540]

Infighting

[@Bon-Apart]

The sad truth of the situation is that it's all down to some horrible Tory Minister who's got a mate with a "great idea" to make billions.

[@petemoring67]

My daughter is a PropertyInventory/EPC Clerk - She took the course to train as an 'assessor' for a 'suitability report' because the Government is paying 'Good Money' to have these done - As You say, the Money-Hoovers are hovering and she has been recruited by a company who will supply the leads for her to attend .... At the One-On-One meeting with the Area Manager he leaned 'Really Hard' to try and get her to SELL the Systems at the Same Time .... She has refused ... BUT! there will be MANY who will see the £££££££ Signs Flashing and Vulnerable Folk WILL Be Fleeced !! ... And will very likely have their home LEFT Un-Insureable after these Herberts have finished :-(

[@webbo4148]

Evergreen energy…

[@KeithWhittingham]

Invent a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door. Invent a, well, not so good mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door if you lie to them about efficiency and bung them five grand.

[@edc1569]

Most of the world uses heat-pumps to cool and heat, in the commercial world its incredibly common, problem is you have to be competent to fit them.

[@reubenklang3968]

Listening to this is funny, so basically they’re getting a bad name because people are getting unskilled people to install them or companies are sending people out who don’t have a clue. As for knocking 35mm notches out of joists, that’s pathetic. The fella who was using the wrong press fittings etc has nothing to do with heat pumps either. Stick a decent unit in as well, eco dan or an altherma rather than pushing garbage for a bigger mark up!

[@mattkatrinabryant870]

I would only trust a Heat Geek (unless all their videos are lies :) ). Patiently waiting for my heat loss survey

[@everydaybiker]

"Apparently these guys aren't alowd to tell you"... come on Roger, did your mate down the pub tell you he heard that once? This used to be a good channel.

[@SkillBuilder]

We know the name of the company but we have run up against lawyers in the recent past and it can take up a lot of time and money. If you want to undewrite our legal costs I will gladly publish the name.

[@kr1886]

Is anyone surprised by this? Far too many companies in this country are interested in parting you from as much cash as possible yet are only capable of sub standard work. This is just the latest bandwagon.

[@roypateman470]

Cool

[@cipur11]

Co2 is food for plants ! This sxam is the only reason we are talking about this ! NUCLEAR

[@markjefferson7492]

Mike is brilliant, you need him back on for another session

[@wotnoturbo]

The green wet dream !

[@darrenlomax1283]

If you cant tell us who this company is you can tell us who it isnt.

[@michaelfraser5723]

THE POTTY GOV IS DOING EXPENSIVE ADS ON SKY, PUSHING THE 5k SUBSIDY! Meanwhile jets are still fillling the atmosphere with 'GREENHOUSE GASES' (CO2).

[@BarriosGroupie]

Since when did plumbers become 'engineers'? Don't engineers design and invent things?

[@bertram6934]

I'm a plumber, I design plumbing and heating systems most days.

[@bertram6934]

Also worth noting, a qualified gas "Engineer" can sign off passport photos as they are an engineer with professional qualifications.

[@ThriveTalesTV]

heat pump my ass .

[@bertram6934]

That's what she said

[@KeithWhittingham]

Too much methane mate...