Shon Faye: Trans liberation will free us all

Shon Faye is the author of one of the most important books of our time - THE TRANSGENDER ISSUE. Coming at a time of vicious anti-trans backlash, we explore why the liberation of trans people will free everyone, how the current moral panic against trans people is similar and different from that gay people have faced, the situation facing young trans people, why liberation is bound up with the struggle against capitalism - and much else.
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[@OwenJonesTalks]

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[@noor5x9]

@@rustybucket7323 excuse me, what? Go back any number of years and you will find that the overton window has shifted significantly to the right. You know that Labour used to be anti-capitalist right? Like actually seize-the-means-of-production socialist?

[@deefjohnholler]

​@@rustybucket7323 try the daily mail. the murdoch empire. the sun. the express. the observer. the spectator. fox news. gb news.spiked. triggernometry. unherd. the rubin report. Jordan peterson. kelly jay keen. megan murphy. abigail schrier. the shapiros. the shakespearos and the bbc. hope this helps. x

[@PantomimeHorse]

This is great. Something that consistently impresses me about Shon is her generosity to, and patience with, people who mistakenly hold GC beliefs out of genuine ignorance. Given the bad faith of the organised terfsphere, and the transphobia she endures on social media, it really speaks to her character.

[@timk6181]

I'm just a cis guy and their bad faith arguing still makes me hulk out so I have no idea how she does it.

[@PantomimeHorse]

@@timk6181 Same.

[@WalterKhayyam]

@@timk6181 How do you distinguish between an argument you disagree with from "bad faith arguing"?

[@Lumidingo]

@@WalterKhayyam When you're delivering it.

[@timk6181]

@@WalterKhayyam Straw men, poisoning the well, crybullying etc. Here's an example, I mentioned the suicide rates for trans people and a TERF retweeted me claiming it was abuse and that I (cis male remember) was threatening to kill myself if she didn't agree with me.

[@bikerpaul68]

Also, speaking as a gay cis male retired psychiatrist, I found the remark about psychiatrists toward the end of the interview somewhat unfortunate. As far as I recall from my period in UK psychiatry in the 1980's, in the gender re-assignment clinics it was the surgeons who demanded a psychiatric assessment of the candidates, not psychiatrists.

[@schrire39]

Would it be fairer in your view to refer to “the medical establishment”?

[@bikerpaul68]

@@schrire39 Generalizations about "the medical establishment" - whatever it is, I've never been part of it - are just as questionable as generalizations about "psychiatrists". You might just as well say "all men are ..." or "all gay men are ..." or "all transgender men are ...".

[@bikerpaul68]

Re the question: what would the ideal non-phobic society look like - in 1984 Samuel R Delany published a science fiction novel called "Stars in my Pocket like Grains of Sand", which dealt with some of these issues. I still have my (pristine) copy. From the afterword: "I think that at any time when there was ... a notion of a centered subject, especially when related to the white, western, patriarchal nuclear family, not only was it an ideological mirage, it was a mirage that necessarily grew up to mask the psychological, economic, and material oppression of an 'other' ...".

[@kingcyrusthegreat3887]

Also Shon Faye is the GOAT

[@frankshailes3205]

That didn't sound very flattering but then I found it means "Greatest Of All Time" so, fair play.

[@kingcyrusthegreat3887]

@@frankshailes3205 lol 😆 it's ok that's what I meant

[@DavePigott2000]

I'm a 63 year old straight cis-male who went on gay pride marches in 1977. I completely get how we are moving forward. Society will catch up. It will take a while, but we'll get there. Love to both of you!

[@frankshailes3205]

Well said. The haters are on the wrong side of history, new generations will see that.

[@WalterKhayyam]

@@frankshailes3205 That just means the battlegrounds is the education system.

[@Lumidingo]

@@WalterKhayyam Ah, rerunning Section 28, yet another example of the reactionary right's malicious attempts to harm the minorities they don't like.

[@frankshailes3205]

@@WalterKhayyam One of the battlegrounds, yes.

[@WalterKhayyam]

@@Lumidingo What's Section 28 got to do with it?

[@AlexandraBryngelsson]

As a trans girl that has been in a trot org for 15++ years, I always felt accepted in my org, it's been a "safe space" where it was just a non-issue. But maybe it was different in the 80es/90es?

[@whereweregoingwedontneedey4374]

Can someone explain to me what there is to gain by changing how society views sex? Why can't we accept male and female exist (as it has done since the dawn of time) and if the notion of the gender identity exists then this is separate to sex. What is the end game on this side of the argument? A lot of what is referred to as "transphobia" is really boiling down to this part of the discussion, i.e. not accepting that a body's inherent sex cannot be changed just by saying so

[@tabbymoonshine5986]

Nobody…..denies sex exists. Boring.

[@PedanticPig]

We do accept that the male and female sex categories exist, it's just not always a particularly sensible way of organising society, especially in edge cases like trans or intersex people. And yeah, sex can't be changed just by saying so - that's what medical treatments are for.

[@whereweregoingwedontneedey4374]

@@PedanticPig Thank you for what is a very sensible reply. 👍 Not everyone shares your viewpoint.

[@deefjohnholler]

1) it is still transphobia whatever the rationale that people use to justify their phobia. prejudice always boils down to self interest,a lack of empathy for others and an emotional commitment to ignorance. when you ask gender crit questions on a message board beneath a trans positive video you are not looking for answers. you are just looking for conflict.

[@pb1105]

@Alice What you call "single sex spaces" have always actually been "single gender spaces." People forget, but trans women have been using public toilets for longer than the word trans has existed, and some cis women have been barred from these spaces because they don't perform gender adequately well.

[@charllandsberg]

Yeee! Go Shon!

[@BD-yl5mh]

I’m just about breaking out of my egg now at 27 and how the hell does everyone not realise EVERYONE is being ‘forced’ into their gender roles from that young age???

[@nigelfrench8894]

Yes, there are similarities to the experience of gay men historically and trans people I note lesbians not mentioned) However, part of same sex attracted history was that we fought against medical and pharmacological intervention and this is what is being fought for by trans people. Therefore , this constant association with same sex attracted gay men with trans people is so dangerous ! Gay male conversion therapy is happening !

[@dambrooks7578]

This was a marvellous interview, thank you Owen, Shon and to everyone that didn't take Owen's call to arm's seriously ❣💜💜💜💜❣

[@jamietulacz7742]

Great show- Shon is a brilliant and eloquent guest!

[@DianaAmericaRivero]

Greetings from the other side of the Pond! Shon's book was referenced in a recent article in the New Yorker so I thought I should watch this and I am very glad I did. Gotta read her book now.

[@EamonCoyle]

I just watched a show on Decoding the Unknown and I have concluded that Shon Faye is Banksy !! :P

[@stephaniedale8302]

As always, a fantastic interview. Shon, is a great advocate for the trans community. As, you are too. Her book is a must have, for many many people. Even those, that are not trans or have experience of the trans community. Like Christine's book, it's one that'll be seen in the future as historically significant to the progressive pushes achieved. As there were the Marsha P Johnson's & Sylvia Rivera's of times past that gave us the stepping stones we tread on today, Women like Shon and other's will build bridges that those generations in the future won't feel its necessary to tippy toe over. Long gone, will be the rocky stepped stones over troubled waters One must precariously cross. There'll be a stable secure bridge built, that everyone can walk freely without doubt or nerve. That'll be down, to the likes of people like you Owen, and those wonderful people like Shon that champion to shine. Thank you !

[@annlove2098]

Thx for your excellent reports. Always topical

[@bossendenwoodconvict]

I wonder how Trans Liberation is going in Palestine Owen.

[@deefjohnholler]

no you don't...

[@nigelfrench8894]

I wonder if the many gay men in Iran & Pakistan who are subject to conversion via transitioning feel liberated?

[@sophiepooks2174]

@@nigelfrench8894 Authoritarian cruelty especially, religious cruelty, mob cruelty is nothing new and nothing to do with transgender people. so how is it their fault? Basically mean spirited people are just trying to find more reasons to be cruel and inact more draconian laws against transgender people.

[@avirtualcanvas7584]

Shon's fantastic book I hope is the one book that will open people's eyes to the reality of being Trans.I read it and thought this book can really open people's eyes and hopefully minds too.Her genoristy and empathy and patience and openess is so inspiring.This book and Shon's thinking and insights give me a little glimmer of hope for the trans community. It's such a well written book and I could relate to so much of it. Shon's voice is one that shoud be listened to really listened to .This was such a great and empowering interview.I have to say I do agree with Shon's saying trans liberation will ultimately fee everyone and after reading this fantastic book I hope other people will feel the same. Shon thank you for this breakthrough of a book and thank you Owen for this interview as well.(matt)

[@567secret]

Hey Owen, don't know if you'll see this, but it would be really awesome to see you talk to somebody about asexual oppression and disenfranchisement (in general or just in the UK), as we're another group within LGBTQIA+ that often goes unnoticed and forgotten... And I think a lot of people don't know about the barriers we face. Similarly can be said for intersex people too.

[@whereweregoingwedontneedey4374]

Could you elaborate? What oppression do you face as an example. Plus a range of positions on the A-spec really aren't anything special (e.g. 'Demisexuality' - I mean come on, why does only being sexually attracted to people you have a bond with need a flag - sad indication of our society if this is seen as "special" )

[@deefjohnholler]

@@whereweregoingwedontneedey4374 why do nations need flags and national anthems? sad indication of our society if just living in the same place is seen as special? why do sports fans need to wear their team colors and wave flags? sad indication of our society if a sport's team is seen as "special". now piss off...

[@whereweregoingwedontneedey4374]

@@deefjohnholler You didn't really explain - how is Demisexuality anything different or victimised enough to be part of a group that was all about being proud of who you are in the face of adversity and discrimination. How are demisexuals discriminated against?

[@nigelfrench8894]

Gay men's sexual health is a priority for public health and they have been a target group for health promotion for a long time now, so incorrect to say they are not.

[@sophiepooks2174]

Gay men's health is well supported for 30 years where I live.

[@JosephStealin]

Women = an adult female human being. Oxford English Dictionary.

[@miriamlana833]

But "female" is defined very vague, if not arbitrary.

[@JosephStealin]

@@miriamlana833 😂it literally is a binary. You are either male or female.

[@miriamlana833]

@@JosephStealin by what exactly you want to divide?

[@JosephStealin]

@@miriamlana833 what I, or anyone else wants has nothing to do with biological facts, which are immutable.

[@miriamlana833]

@@JosephStealin why avoiding an answer? Have none?

[@feeamerie5011]

Love you Shan and the book was amazing. Gobbled it up in two days

[@dambrooks7578]

I purchased this directly, it is a case very close to my heart. I am looking forward to learning directly from you Shon. 🥰❣💜💜💜💝

[@0532phillipjoy]

42 mins the intersectionality is stark, if half of all women are unable to find refuge places it is easier to understand the TERFs degree of anxt about 'female' spaces. It is very political. Any chance the book is available on audio?

[@sophiepooks2174]

Of course, as Shon said it is the fault of Tori politicians not trans women also needing refuge from bad situations with non trans men.

[@simonebrady05]

I learned a lot listening to this interview. Thanks to you both ❤

[@kayleekayt3306]

(RE: Sirens and Owens remark) ... sound of the beast

[@PeruvianTreeProductions]

Owen said “gender identity assigned at birth”. I always thought biological sex was assigned at birth, not a gender identity. When a midwife writes boy or girl, is that not because of an observable physical, anatomical manifestation ? What should they be writing instead? Not challenging anything here, genuinely curious.

[@Lumidingo]

Biological sex is superficially observed (there is no comprehensive observation, which can be a problem for some intersex folk), and gender is presumed, or 'assigned', on that basis. There is a question as to why that needs to be recorded in the first place, as the utility of a birth certificate as a record of either sex or gender is, for all practical purposes, irrelevant. We simply don't use birth certificates that way.

[@Lumidingo]

What's your point? You've looked at a baby's genitals? Can we presume you haven't looked at the genitals of 99+% of the people you meet, or are you an incredibly exceptional individual?

[@Lumidingo]

@crabhat1 Objectively, it is superficially observed for the vast majority of infants. The kind of observation you'd need to do to detect a lot of intersex traits are practically never done on infants, which is why a lot of people are diagnosed with an intersex condition at later stages of development. I can't imagine why you felt that looking at your baby's genitals gives you insight into a child's physiology that wouldn't be drastically surpassed by a comprehensive medical examination.

[@pb1105]

@crabhat1 It's difficult to take your fanaticism seriously.

[@pb1105]

Curious what purpose this distiction has? Do we need to write down boy or girl at all? What would happen if we didn't?

[@kaykay1570]

💚

[@weejockpoopongmcplop]

Shon lost me at the end ngl. I get that reproductive capacity isn't the sole thing that determines whether one is a "man" or a "woman", but unless we're talking about some far-flung future where all new humans are being grown in vats or whatever it seems that some kind of binary is going to persist.

[@schrire39]

I think Shon said exactly what you’re saying. Please elaborate on what element of what she said “lost you” ?

[@weejockpoopongmcplop]

​@@schrire39 As I recall she just said the categories of men and women would cease to exist, which makes it seem like it will happen as a consequence of humans just becoming more enlightened or something. If there was an implied "when sexual reproduction becomes a thing of the past", I guess we are saying the same thing.

[@deefjohnholler]

how did you go from rigid binary sex to the matrix in one step? lol. there will always be people who insist on the binary and will divide humanity accordingly just as there are those who insist on race and divide humanity accordingly. it doesn't make it right.

[@deefjohnholler]

@@weejockpoopongmcplop no. noone is saying that. reproduction is not dependent on cisgender heterosexuality. i think you should write distopian fiction. the world will not stop turning when we treat trans people like human beings with the same respect you demand as a right.

[@weejockpoopongmcplop]

@@deefjohnholler I agree that reproduction is not dependent on cisgender heterosexuality - a homosexual man could impregnate a transman, after all - but (currently, at least) human reproduction is dependent on a sperm cell merging with an egg cell. That's two different types of cell, and for a large majority of humanity, each of us only produces one of those two types of cell. Hence the binary. Note that I am NOT saying that you have to produce the right type of cell to be considered a man or a woman, simply that sexual reproduction is the root cause of the binary that exists. It's not clear to me that recognizing this fact is tantamount to treating trans people like they aren't human or deserving of respect, but I'm sorry if that's how you feel.

[@DanielleA2023]

We are a Species. A young species. Species evolve. We are evolving. Evolving includes Diversification! Everything, no matter how small a number, is NORMAL, CONTRIBUTES TO OUR JOURNEY & ADDS VALUE

[@jdrobertsambient]

Incredibly informative and fascinating. Thank you!

[@neilwilliams2883]

Doesn't look like this is a show for me.

[@Banjo2030]

Why not? I'm curious...

[@neilwilliams2883]

@@Banjo2030 Do you want the truth or would you rather I toe the line?

[@Banjo2030]

@@neilwilliams2883 I asked didn't I?

[@weejockpoopongmcplop]

@@neilwilliams2883 Still waiting on that truth Neil.

[@neilwilliams2883]

@@weejockpoopongmcplop and you are?

[@DCI-Frank-Burnside]

If you're making Rod Liddle incandescent with rage, you've got to be doing something right.

[@joewedg3703]

Liberation from what? Bad words on the internet? Not exactly women’s sufferage is it 😂

[@clarabatty8696]

Maybe read it and find out...

[@joewedg3703]

@@clarabatty8696 I will do when I have time 👍🏻 just the name of the video made me laugh

[@Banjo2030]

@@joewedg3703 Liberation from the multiple systems of oppression, coercion, and control that are inherent to capitalism I would imagine. You don't think you could do with liberation in your own life, or those around you in theirs?

[@joewedg3703]

@@Banjo2030 I agree with most of that but what’s being trans got to do with it?

[@pb1105]

Same things that are hold you back, mate. That's the point of the book.

[@tomthumbelina70]

Speaking as a trans lesbian bisexual half penguin with a dash of badger woman, I found this interview quite interesting

[@voodoochile333]

Just go up to your mother and say 'I am just as much a woman as you are! ' And then watch her cry. Where the hell are the feminists? Why are they not sticking up for women's rights ?

[@Hyperplaterine]

I am a feminist who stands up for women's rights. I stand for the rights of: Black women White women Straight women Gay women Cis women Trans women ALL WOMEN If your feminism isn't intersectional and inclusive, it isn't feminism.

[@deefjohnholler]

if you turn womanhood into a competition, as you have in your bizarre example then you have failed to understand womanhood and have failed the asignment. i believe more mothers would be more upset they raised a bigoted son who treated women like garbage.

[@voodoochile333]

@@Hyperplaterine sorry, no matter how you dress it up, you are a biological bloke in a frock. It may hurt your feelings, but it's a fact.

[@voodoochile333]

@@deefjohnholler I know it is a bizarre example to say that someone with xy chromosomes is the same as someone with xx chromosomes. IT'S CRAZY!

[@Hyperplaterine]

voodoochile333 Why do you care so much about a group of people that aren't hurting you or anyone else.? Are you having trouble dealing with feelings that make you uncomfortable?

[@bacchic6676]

Love shon

[@A2Z347]

✨💗✨

[@dambrooks7578]

I have proudly been involved in two different Pride Take Overs with two different groups, one of which was with Lesbians and Gays Support the Migrants which encountered more opposition from a radical group of Lesbians that had organised their own Pride take over to speak out about how Transgender persons (male transitioning to female) where basically rapist trying to hide in plain sight. Being a part of the mobile drumming contingency we drowned out their voices and suggested they relocate to Speakers Corner as they might be heard...

[@FBH991]

I think wonder about less of us to be honest. Like, my personal experience is that there are a lot of people who once the idea of being trans is normalized will say "oh yeah that's me too." So I think as the idea of being trans is normalized we'll see more and more people who do it.

[@sophiepooks2174]

You could say the same thing about alcohol, tobacco, or weed they were at one time prohibited, only people who need to will do it, many are too lazy would not be bothered going through the long expensive/painful process of transitioning socially and medically, many would not be able to for medical reasons either.

[@rafaelgamma07]

Can science agree with the transgender concept?

[@helenlawson8426]

Treatment of trans people has evolved and comes from scientists and specialists... so yes.

[@pb1105]

My doctor seems to think so.

[@WalterKhayyam]

@@helenlawson8426 And how do you know they're right?

[@Lumidingo]

@@WalterKhayyam Typically, because their treatment and standards of care have been developed through decades of institutional knowledge gathering, not navel gazing from time-wasters on the internet.

[@WalterKhayyam]

@@Lumidingo So you've read the studies then? Or are you just making an assumption?

[@mumitm8212]

Shon is correct. Liberation and abolition are two sides of the same coin

[@michaelcarrick2015]

Ewww