CRF300 v KTM500

What's the real world differences when used as a lightweight adventure bike?

[@ShonkyProductions]

The main purpose of this vidoe is to answer the question I get asked all the time... "Why not just buy a KTM500". As this video shows, the real world difference in power and speed are not a big as people think. The 500 makes its power earlier and has more of it, but i have no problem riding at normal trail speed and even higher (play racing) keeping up with the 500. I enjoy riding a small bike fast and using all of its capability. The 500 is more "fun" if you want that big power for wheelies and skids, and it will get up to speed and overtake quicker on the highway. Choose the bike YOU want and let others choose theirs.

[@SqueakyBoot]

Good comparisons, great timing...I have a DRZ400 set-up as a light weight adventure bike, I was in the Vic high country the other day and was considering a KTM/Husky 500 build, only because of the tarmac kilometres that have to be travelled (between some dirt sections for an Adventure trip), but, once on the dirt the DRZ can do it all, yes the weight at times may be an issue....so many variables, so it's still the same old "is their such a thing as a Unicorn".

[@robertscarisbrick7245]

Great test !! You have done an excellent job of developing the overall ability of what is a great platform !! The crf300 is a very accessible bike for people to start adventure riding but you have show what it is ultimately capable of . Both bikes look great 😎 but as you and other have shown the Crf is a real world adventure bike that would take you anywhere 👍💪😊

[@ShonkyProductions]

Thanks mate, that's exactly what I'm try to show.

[@bosoceansport2068]

Great video Sean. Leaning against a wall the two bikes look like they’re in the same type of class. But one is leaning toward the soft adventure touring market and the other is an enduro weapon which with the right mods can be an adventure bike as well. This comparison is at the extreme end of what most CRF owners will put their bike through and yours is obviously modded towards the higher end of what the Honda is ultimately capable of. It’s great that you’ve explored these capabilities. But in the end and without spending big bucks to make these bikes try to meet halfway, the buyer will go in their chosen direction, apples for apples. Some will mod the CRF to be a little more capable and some will mod the KTM/Husky to be a little more adventure tourer. The big decision is what it will cost you to buy and mod either bike in your own chosen direction, and then the actual cost of ownership long term. I think you’ve opened a Pandora’s box here and created video content for the next three years. And I welcome that. Somehow I feel the most interested viewers should be the manufacturers. If they’re smart. Love your work Sean.

[@robertscarisbrick7245]

Great comment !! Totally agree . Why do manufacturers sit on the fence !! Surely a light bike sorted for proper adventure cannot be a bad business decision !! I just don’t understand the decision not to build what the public want !!

[@ShonkyProductions]

Thanks, I really appreciate you well thought out comments.

[@ShonkyProductions]

@@robertscarisbrick7245 perhaps they feel we are too small of a market...? But if you look at the interest in the new Kove450, it would seem that there is an appetite for a lightweight adventure bike.

[@ShonkyProductions]

Yes, Stage 4 (301cc Kit and Sports Cam)

[@jctoth]

Great video. I admire all you've done with the CRF300L. I have built up a CRF450RL similar to your build as an ultralight ADV bike. For me it fits perfectly between the 300L and the 500EXC-F. The 450RL is not as smooth as the 300L but quite a bit smoother than the 500EXC-F. And with the GET ECU and Graves exhaust its power output is similar to the 500. But I do prefer the suspension on the 450RL over the 500EXC-F for sure. And the road manners of the 450RL is a notch above the 500EXC-F. Keep up the good work.

[@ShonkyProductions]

That sounds like a great bike. I'm yet to ride a well setup CRF450RL.

[@ridemfast7625]

Have you tried a 690/701 and able to compare to the 450rl? Interested in the lighter weight of the 450rl in comparison for both on and off road.

[@jctoth]

@@ridemfast7625 Yes, I have ridden the 690. The 690 engine is a marvel, power everywhere! But a well setup 450RL with 45-50 horsepower is more than enough for a 300 pound motorcycle. I much prefer the suspension and handling of the 450RL. It is race bike derived and requires little tinkering. The 690 can feel like a handful when trying to go fast whereas the 450RL feels very much at home going fast. It just seems to flow. As for weight the 690 carries its weight fairly well and didn’t feel too much heavier than the 450RL but the 690’s handling is off a bit. Maybe because of the rear fuel tank? Also the gearbox on the 690 feels a little clunky compared to the Honda’s.

[@jasgsxr2726]

That was great, not many people go to the extent to show the difference in crashability. Body work is expensive , something for us to think about , thanks.😉

[@trailsandtires1457]

I was on a KTM 450exc before buying my 300L. The 450exc and 500exc are definitely different bikes but was also a big awitch to the 300L. The 450 on open two track was brilliant and huge fun but I never got along with it in tight single track. I tried a whack of things to make it work better for me but eventually gave up on it. Definitely part of it is me as a rider. I lose some of the excitement in the open stuff but overall I have really been happy with the switch from the 450exc to the 300L.

[@enduromotorradtouren]

Very interesting result of this experiment with two equal riders. Fans of the bigger grunt engine magnify the glorious moment of giving throttle. And neglect the longer time after that initial phase. Happy days, Günter/Nürnberg

[@ShonkyProductions]

That a good point you raise... that instant acceleration grunt is short lived.

[@sausagesandwichSA]

I did some bike swapping on some tight double track with two guys who have far more skills than me, DRZ and 500...of course I could not keep up. When they were on my 250 and me on the other two I still couldn't keep up....all that extra power didn't improve my skills. The DRZ felt really good and the 500 well that was a blast on open dirt roads. A comfy lounge chair was also my description. Some of my plastics are now held together with black cloth tape and cable ties.

[@ShonkyProductions]

I feel my plastic will be the same soon!

[@Boowa4]

Very interesting, now do one compared to the AJP PR7 and a 690/701 with a tower

[@SomewhereInside]

One thing is certain …the Rally is beautiful looking …it gives me a lift when I turn the light on in my garage , and see the red white and blue Honda.

[@airadaimagery692]

Awesome video mate! Awesome comparison. I know my stock Rally wouldn’t hang that tight to that 500! No way. And even though Jeff seems to be a bit heavier than you, his bike being 40 kilos (88lbs) lighter, makes a huge difference. That’s a good bit of weight difference. I’m glad Jeff didn’t get hurt. That was a helluva crash. Hope you get her all fixed up. That’s the only thing that sucks with having all that plastic. And I know how much more comfortable the Rally is. I haven’t ridden a KTM500 but I did ride a 350, and it felt more like a MX bike compared to mine. Especially with my aftermarket seat.

[@colinavery3262]

I've got a KTM 625 and the biggest difference for me as an idiot rider over a smaller capacity bike, is in the steep single track sections where I inevitably screw up and find myself in the wrong gear, but the ktm has enough torque to just power through and dig me out. At my level I bizarrely find the bigger cc easier to ride as it's got a more flexible power delivery. Plus the LC4 engine seems tough, as does the whole bike which has taken quite the bashing and just keeps going.

[@OneManTrail]

Then the 500 gets home and needs an oil change, the 300 has 7,500 more miles.

[@william6815]

Great video mate, I don’t think you can really compare them one is a adventure bike the other is really a desert racing bike (yes it can go on adv rides) but at the end of the day it’s a dirt bike. The 300 rally is a road bike with off-road suspension it’s definitely the clear winner for me for adv riding, I’ve got a 350 excf and turned into a light weight adv bike but it’s just no good on the highway great only dirt tho.

[@mechcavandy986]

That KTM is cracking man! But I’m biased. I’ve owned a few.

[@bzrider29]

Good video. Its hard to match the power of the 500.but I find the equalizer is the woods and tighter trails . I keep up with most in the woods . In the open stuff they leave me . I can do the speed limits on the road just fine .

[@ShonkyProductions]

That's what I find too.

[@mikehayes77]

Fantastic video, and perfectly timed as always. I was on that exact piece of single track on Friday and did several laps. First lap I took the left clay side that Jeff did and was sliding every where, took the right side for the remaining laps. Of interest I did some rough timing with and without traction control (350) and was almost 2 seconds quicker per lap with TC on. Surprised me! Keep up the great content

[@ShonkyProductions]

Hi Mike, that doesn't surprise me actually. I noticed when racing the KTM500 how much power was being wasted in wheel spin.

[@nickalbon5929]

Great video, this is exactly the riding I want to get back into. Curious to know, the vibrations on the 500, was it only noticeable on the road or road and dirt?

[@timjrvine]

I came from a 300 rally, and now im on a 501. I thought the 300 rally was amazing, but it lacked a bit of power for overtaking at higher speeds. That was one of the main reasons I got the 501. Now I have put a cush drive and a seat concepts I love it, I even commute to work about half the time on it. Still not as smooth as the 300 though.

[@javierpallalorden]

The CRF300 motor is smooth as butter compared to the KTM. It's like comparing a sowing machine with a jackhammer.

[@fawcetttrips2466]

So why bother over taking? If the vehicles ahead are too slow, they aren't hard to pass. I run a 250 rally and have passed road trains no worries.

[@colinlow1167]

My CRF250L ended up pointing back along the trail too. I think the rear had spun up on poor traction, gained angular momentum, then suddenly gripped and threw the bike round (essentially a highside). Slammed me down hard. Glad all well, but sorry about the plastics :-(

[@ShonkyProductions]

Good explanation. That was probably it

[@cosamuel7182]

Would be interested in hearing some thoughts on suspension, chassis, handling, fit/finish, weight, cost/value, etc. Comparison of these two outside of just the power. I have a KTM 2-stroke enduro that I think the world of. I also have one of their road bikes that I live in constant fear of needing costly repair, but have found no equal to for out of the box power, handling and sheer fun factor. I also had to sell several organs to finance these machines. The appeal of the 300L is that it is-I think-90% as good for 50% the money, even once you consider the "needed" upgrades and fixes.

[@fawcetttrips2466]

It had to be done, yes. Well done. Having said that, I question the percentage of light weight adventure riders this applies to. Most are not at the same skill levels as you two or do a lot of single tracks. Finally, I see no point in "keeping up", I let the racers go and crash. Arriving at the next turnoff 10 seconds later is ok by me.

[@ShonkyProductions]

Yes, they are very good point you bring up. In real life, just normal riding the differences between the two are even less, because as you say... there is no need to "race".

[@markjacobs3956]

Totally agree. I'm 60 and my highy modded 300L works just fine.

[@lionelemata7433]

I’m 60. I also ride a ‘22 500EXC and a ‘23 300 Rally (& a ‘21 890 AdvR) They are 3 different tools for 3 different purposes. When I’m doing BDR’s across the US, riding intense dual-sport events with my friends, or all-purpose riding in a 3rd world country, these 3 tools can’t comfortably do each other’s job. Next, maybe pit Mike Tyson against Manny Pacquiao in a ballet competition with ice skates.

[@TwoWheelerSparky]

The beauty of the 300 Rally, is that you can still roll out of the bush and onto the open road comfortably. Imagine if a bike was coming the other way in some of those corners 😐

[@ddacaro3625]

I got a 300L non-rally, then thought, "this things gonna kill me" after riding a few times on intermediate trails at the OHV. I took a 15min test ride on a ktm 500 and realized in that short period that based on how it handled in comparison in the dirt, yeah, the 300L probably will kill me. So I sold it and now have (2) 500's because I feel safer letting visiting family ride one of them then the 300L in the dirt just for handling alone. If you don't punch the 500 throttle it's pretty tame, unless modded. Got my second 500 used from 2014, only 900 miles - great deal, and "euro mapped" so it hauls ass. But my 500 '22 is waaaay more nimble. I ride trails, not reall gravel. I think the 300L is fine for the kind of terrain shown in this video - great even. But on the sketchy off road, there's no comparison between the honda and the ktm, really none. The 500 is a dream, I feel comfortable on expert trails on it when on intermediate trails on the 300L at the same area I feel sketched out.

[@ShonkyProductions]

Yes, with the stock suspension if you push it hard or fast you will quickly find its limitations.

[@lionelemata7433]

What a coincidence: I have a ‘14, ‘22 500EXC and a ‘23 300L Rally. This is my take. My KTMs have been spot on reliable in the way I use them in California. The ‘14 bike was taller (39”) and heavier (250 lbs.). The ‘22 bike was manageable height (37.8”) and more nimble (232 lbs.) which works better with my 5’7” height with a 30” inseam. I use them for dual-sport events and off-roading with like minded/skilled riders. The ‘23 bike is much shorter (35.2”) but seems taller because I ride it on the street most of the time. With half the power of the 500 and 99 lbs.heavier (331 lbs.) it’s getting better as I mod for power and trim weight. I ride it like a single track dirt bike on the street with no fear of law enforcement because it’s traffic in Cebu, Philippines. The CRF will never satisfy my needs in the hazards of off-road. The 500s will never have the comfort of a CRF for daily riding in a third world country. If I want to go longer distances as in cross-country adventure riding, that’s what I have my ‘21 KTM890 AdvR for. It’s always about having the right tool for the job. Thank you ShonkMan for your guidance.

[@tonyrdr7207]

Well done mate great video. It never even crossed my mind when I bought the rally that it could with the proper mods be that close to the 500 in performance and in all honesty ride a probably half the speed you two do 😂. So it is not that relevant for me but interesting none the less. Regarding the many comments you get on 690. I have lived with both bikes for 2 and 3 years each now. So I have done the comparison for myselfMine was a 701 with a hard kit setup for desert raid. On paper it looked amazing but in reality it does not hold up as an adventure bike so hence compared to the 300. Yes on the highway and fast flowing tracks it is great and very seductive but it is expensive uses a lot more fuel, is fragile. Overheats in tight slow trails and generally is very temperamental. Sadly the tighter the trail gets fully loaded for an adventure ride the faster and more confident I am on the 300. I never quite gelled with the 701 and am so happy with the 300 which I consider far superior for remote exploration. Still many riders will put up with the limitations of those bikes and be happy with them, just like I happily put up with the 300’s limitations

[@ShonkyProductions]

Thanks Tony, I feel exactly the same with my 300... I'm very happy to live with its (now reduced) limitations.

[@ozidaho]

Great stuff. What about a comparison between the CRF 300l and the ktm 350exc. Seems more apples to apples. I’d love to see how they stack up. So many options 😂

[@ShonkyProductions]

Yes, they would be a lot closer. I did this comparison because so many people said "Just get a KTM500".

[@javierpallalorden]

Not even close! Not even to a KTM 250 EXC-F (42HP). KTM doesn't make a 4stroke with only 34HP.

[@fawcetttrips2466]

@@javierpallalordenand not even comparable in any way. Valve clearances on a CRF are done at 25,000km. KTM250 every 30 hours. Honda makes bikes like that e.g. CRF450L, but they chose to make the CRF300 like it is for good reasons. There is no way in hell I would buy a trail bike where use is measured in hours, I like riding too much for that.

[@javierpallalorden]

@@fawcetttrips2466 It all depends on your riding style, if you ride a KTM like you ride a Honda CRF300L than you do not need to check the valve clearances every 30 hours. If you ride a KTM full power than yes there is a lot of maintenance. Anyway I like riding the CRF300L and keep the revs in the middle and maintenance is a breeze.

[@colinbowman8816]

​@@ShonkyProductions350 exc still weighs around 245 lb, and still makes 40 hp. Like the 500.

[@Oldfatbeerman]

I believe the DR 650 would be a better comparison , needs suspension work to set up like the CRF , along with the range being addressed and I also changed out the CV carb for a pumper for instant throttle response , it weighs a similar amount but the power delivery is opposite , it is a Bottom end / mid range power bike v's the CRF being a Mid range top end bike the way you have yours set up now Sean , definitely not anything but an Adventure bike in any one's honest estimations , unlike the 500EXC which has won numerous Finke desert races and other similar events , there will never be a DR650 or CRF300 rider on the podium at Finke (unless they rode their 500 EXC that day ). Also a similar expenditure when compared directly with late model second hand purchased bikes .

[@byrnestuff]

Honda has ABS so you can buy a new one and use it where the import regs require ABS eg in NZ. Can’t ride a new KTM 500 on the road in NZ. Same applies in other markets and THAT is why the CRF will sell.

[@DoodleRiderGSA]

Hi Shonky, what stage set up did you have on the Honda in this video? Had you done the stage 4 yet.

[@stefanhansen5882]

The comparison was good. However, I think riding through a rock garden or more technical terrain would show the advantage of the lighter enduro bike better. How about doing that? :)

[@ShonkyProductions]

Good point. I'll cover that in a future ride when we do weekend adventure ride.

[@markbanjodaniel]

Have you tried a ktm 690 enduro R ? Sounds like it could be a combination of the two bikes . I’m torn between the 690 and “adventurizing” a 500, as I’ve always got a lot of tarmac miles to get to the trials .

[@itisfinished4U]

somebody owes you some money, he is lucky he didnt get injured

[@Ride2Live420]

$11, 399.00 vs. $5, 399.00 You get what you pay for.

[@DavidDacaro]

Quick thoughts from a guy who has both bikes. I got the 500 because the 300L almost killed me more than once in technical, exposed dirt situations. The 500 is incredibly safe comparably because of the weight/handling and power on technical terrain. What y'all were riding here is perfect for the 300L. If that's all I rode, I'd be fine riding the 300L. But, what I typically ride on for ADV trips in the Western US puts me in genuine sketchy, technical situations, so I love the 500, it's a freaking scalpel. Last year on Engineer's pass, a rocky, bumpy and at times exposed trail in the Rocky mountains, my buddy and I on really old 520 and 450 KTM's blew by 6 riders on their crf300l's (a 300L club?). We were riding at a light racing pace to meet folks at a pickup point we were late for, while the 300L's were granny-piddling along at super low speeds trying not to crash in the technical stuff. I'm just an amateur rider, FYI, my buddy says a "slow c class". I felt worried for the guys on the 300Ls thinking it was dumb to put those bikes on that trail. To be fair, I was assuming none had upgraded their suspension, which changes a lot. There's a youtuber with a k-tech suspension upgrade (and ecu too I think) who rips his 300L in the dirt like a champ. I'm not him but if you're an awesome rider, then maybe like Chris Birch on his 890, you can upgrade the 300L, have the reliability, and push it a bit in the dirt too up to it's power limits at least. Having said that, my damn 500 engine just blew up at 6K miles, and KTM says it's too many highway miles (I put maybe 500 on it over it's life, but probably did 20 or so rides with 30 min between 70-80mph, seems like nothing?!). For KTM America, highway miles more than just a few between trails in the slow lane is a no no on a 500. So, I think the 500 is leagues above the 300l in every way except now the one that counts, reliability. Breaking down in the middle of no where solo because of a delicate, high performance engine is no longer an option. The relatively dangerous, boring, gutless (in technical stuff where you need torque down low) 300L is going to be the albatross that I now have to wear and it hurts but it's the best ultra light weight "miles bike", which I guess I need for reliability, after the discontinuation of the WR's.... man the 500 is soooooo much better and fun and able, sooo much. Crap!

[@glennwr450]

Own the 500, mate had the 300 rally-stock. Heavy slow terrible suspension, comfortable. Boring reliable. Great bike for what it is

[@airadaimagery692]

It’s a starting point at an affordable price. Once the suspension is tuned for your weight, and a few simple mods, pipe, sprocket, ECU, it’s a blast, and definitely light enough. And still cheaper than most. Having the reliability is super important for me. I’ll sacrifice some things for reliability.

[@kai-uweoch1159]

My first impression of the 500 would be Oh god is it high! The crf will easily sink down 50% into its crappy suspension,, while the 500 would still give me (a short guy) problems even setting one foot down!

[@888jimmy]

Good real world comparison. Don’t you love it when your mate bins your bike. Don’t hold that against him... 😂 Good to see all ok.

[@ShonkyProductions]

Yes, it's hard to stay mad when you're laughing at them!

[@ametti000]

Great review. Where is that initial off road ramp you take from the tarmac?

[@ShonkyProductions]

Ohhhh... That's a secret 🤫

[@ametti000]

Found it...

[@neilpederson5212]

Do a 50000Km review and see which one has been more reliable

[@ShonkyProductions]

I'm definitely interested in that!

[@neilpederson5212]

@@ShonkyProductions the 300 in stock form 100% would be more reliable. I am interested to see with the 300 kit how reliable it is. If it’s as or still more reliable as a stock ktm or any other hp dual sport I will be doing it to mine over the next winter

[@foaley77]

Do you notice the weight of the 6l Fuel Tank Much on the Rally?

[@ShonkyProductions]

@@foaley77 no, not at all. And it drains first.

[@RogerAlcon]

6:20 Yupiii...

[@humzilla707]

Apples to oranges. Power is one thing but anything more than the dirty flat roads you were on and the 500 isn't even in the same realm compared to the ridiculously soft 300

[@muckytrails323]

Two great riders think I go with Honda for the reliability 🤔wouldn’t fancy meeting someone coming the other way doing the same speed ride careful lads ❤

[@Tolandur]

you should test a stock 300 against a stock 690/701...... same weight bikes with twice the power in the KTM/Husky....... and then test your ADV 300 against a fully adventure rigged 690/701and see what bike "adventurices" best 😁

[@ShonkyProductions]

Yes, that would be interesting.

[@fawcetttrips2466]

Really? The results of this video is not surprising, although I am glad that he did it, documenting when there has only been bias speculation. What you are suggesting is even more predictable and a waste of time. But if you make it, I will be glad to click to the predictable end for you.

[@airadaimagery692]

Where have you been buying your rear sprockets from? Do you prefer the counter sunk bolts, or the stock ones, does it matter? Aluminum vs steel? Any particular advice on any particular sprockets? Thanks.

[@ShonkyProductions]

I buy my rear sprockets from a online dirt bike parts store in Australia, MXstore.com.au. I prefer the steel one for strength, price and durability. Some of the sprockets only accept counter sunk bolts, so I purchased two sets of those as I have two sets of wheels.

[@airadaimagery692]

@@ShonkyProductions thanks! No preference for Aluminum or Steel?

[@ShonkyProductions]

@@airadaimagery692 as above... steel

[@airadaimagery692]

@@ShonkyProductions sorry, I was trying to read through a cracked screen. Thanks!👍🤙

[@billcotton1551]

Sorry about your bike man! He was lucky not to get hurt in that crash.

[@ShonkyProductions]

Thanks Bill, yes he was.

[@adzythepwcblokeinaustralia5467]

Hmm 🤔 new tyres are needed urgently !

[@markjacobs3956]

Big surprise. A stock bike that costs $4000 more than a fully modded 300L with double the HP is faster.

[@airadaimagery692]

Lol! Brilliant observation Einstein... The video was created in order to showcase what the moded 300 has become, it wasn’t meant to highlight the the one that cost $4K more. He had to use something for comparison....

[@joshuasarfati5520]

If only the crf was a 450 or 500. I think they are built for the Asian market where there are less open spaces and you don't need the power to transit long distance.

[@ShonkyProductions]

Yes, even a 400cc version would be great. I'd prefer a counter balanced, smooth running motor with good oil chain intervals over outright power.

[@fawcetttrips2466]

There is a 450L. Been there for years.

[@joshuasarfati5520]

@@fawcetttrips2466 yerrr it is nothing like the 300 rally

[@joshuasarfati5520]

@@ShonkyProductions I had an old 84 Honda xr 500.the first disc brake rfvh. It was definitely lighter than a 600 and had longer legs than a 400. I rode it from Darwin to Adelaide. Brilliant bike.

[@fawcetttrips2466]

@@joshuasarfati5520My point exactly, because it's a 450, like you want. The CFR450L is what you get when you increase the power, more weight, shorter service intervals etc etc.

[@liviosinibaldi3632]

Apples & Oranges.

[@anthonyfox5337]

Why didn`t you mention / compare suspension , brakes , handling etc etc ........Of course a KTM 500 will have more power and torque!

[@stefanhansen5882]

KTM 500 what? EXC-(F)?

[@steve955smith]

Trash in one off, deffo worth the crash protection before taking off road!

[@thefathippy]

Looks like you can still get into trouble with lower powered bikes 😂 Bugger!

[@austynwilliam]

Honestly, that KTM just sounds wildly unreliable lol. Sounds like it's just holding on, trying not to explode

[@ShonkyProductions]

Haha... That shaking a bucket of bolts sound is normal for a KTM.

[@austynwilliam]

@@ShonkyProductions yeahhh thats pretty accurate from what I've seen. Would make me so uneasy lol. If my bikes (2008 Yamaha 250f, 2020 Honda cbr 500rally, 1980 Honda cb750f) start sounding like that I'm panicking lol

[@ShonkyProductions]

@@austynwilliam you're like me... You've been spoilt by the smooth sewing machine sounds of Honda.

[@javierpallalorden]

Jeff trashed your bike (@22min), bad luck. Hope you can restore everything back to normal.

[@ShonkyProductions]

It looks like it landed on the left side fairing as it was sliding backwards and ripped out all the fairing mounts. I'll pull it off today and see what I can do.

[@javierpallalorden]

@@ShonkyProductions I keep a box of those little plasic push pins, they do not seem to hold very well.