Should Baldur's Gate 3 Be The Industry Standard? | Dropped Frames Episode 360

[@Regnier191]

Yes. A feature complete game without predatory MTX made by a team that truly cares about the product they’re making should be the industry standard.

[@foulXD]

and it all began with horse armor... fking bethesda...

[@XSamsaX]

The only correct answer.

[@LymeGreen04]

This isn't new. There have been games that have done this since the dawn of gaming. What is the new standard?

[@Sub-zp2gs]

@@LymeGreen04 no thats how it was, before constant online gaming and patching, and figuring out they make 1000x more money on micro transactions, than subscription model, etc EDIT: hell even after most games went fully digital, and 80% of the cost of the games were the CD's and casing, they kept the price the same and even raised it,

[@bobbob-cd9yl]

The thing is Obsidian and Insomniac devs are the ones who made the comments and they talked about scopes of games being 6 year projects and how it should not be an industry norm. The whole topic got taken out of context to suit another narrative @@Sub-zp2gs

[@Kratos263]

Bad take from Cohh. Every AAA companies have more ressources, and they have the same or more experience ( how many CoD are there? How many Battlefieds? FIFA? Halo?) Baldur's gate is not an anomaly, AAA just can't be bothered to actually try

[@Kyriac]

100% agree. He's making excuses for these people. We all should be holding these companies to higher standards to make quality products that don't aim to rip us off. Enough with the defeatist attitude people have about microtransactions, buggy releases and subpar products

[@AwesomeNuke]

Disagreed. In your definition, any game under a 9.7/10 would be trash? Of course BG3 is an anomaly lol Also just to be clear, "being an anomaly" in this case is not a bad thing. But it definitely is

[@darthrevan6]

It's by definition an anomaly. No one else has achieved what Larian did. At the end of the day, big companies are controlled by profit margins first, the creative process is in service of it. That's why they can't achieve this.

[@None38389]

Game dev here, every AAA game that got made and is actually "good" is an anomaly, especially when it comes to projects as massive as this, there are simply so many moving pieces which hinges on each other moving in every directions, it is in general far more likely for things to go wrong than to go right. Most AAA productions, especially new IPs gets canceled before they are even announced. The games which you actually heard of are already the tip of the iceberg, beneath that there's a graveyard of canceled projects. Having the resources, the people and the experience is not enough, you need one hell of a leadership to see things into finish in the right shape, and that's the part which is the hardest to come by, especially when the leaderships are only looking at numbers. Devs usually have to spend more energy fighting the leaderships than actually working on the game. BD3 IS an anomaly because Swen Vincke is an anomaly of a leader, most projects do not have leadership like that, a lot of project do not even have leaders who play games, either that or you get people who only play games and don't know production.

[@Lanthirrhos]

I agree. A lot of these AAA dev studios have been making the same game for over a decade. They have huge resources, staff, and experience in their field/genre (some of them many times what Larian has, even now), and they still cannot make a complete and fit to purpose game at launch. I'd amend your statement to say that Baldur's gate IS an anomaly, because the devs DID work hard to make it as good as it could be. It just should NOT be an anomaly in the AAA scene. And yet most small INDY studios are out-creating giant AAA studios. I've heard a lot of people attempt to blame project leadership, or shareholders and whatnot... and do not get me wrong, They are going to be just as shitty... but you can see these issues down at the dev level. Releasing broken games, terrible balance/patch changes, a lack of knowledge on how their own games work etc. It is quite astonishing just how many games have done the bare minimum these days.

[@fatmatt6669]

Love seeing Dan he just hit 14 years on Twitch legend

[@nr1771]

That's crazy. Is he the longest-running streamer on Twitch? I know Day9 has been there a long time too, and probably some others.

[@kephalai]

hell yeah Dan S Gaming my favorite 4th member of the show :D

[@Monnisti]

Twitch hasnt been around for 14 years. But sure hes been there since the beginning and I guess justintv before that.

[@fatmatt6669]

@@Monnisti yes it was Twitch was called Justin TV that started 17 years ago they renamed it twitch when Amazon bought it

[@Monnisti]

@fatmatt6669 exactly what i said my friend. We arw both right

[@sp6rda]

AAA Devs: Baldur's Gate 3 is making us look bad Swen Kenobi: You have done that yourself! seriously AAA games have been going downhill for pretty much the last decade before BG3 even started. The sad thing is that, this used to be the standard for RPGs that everyone wanted to emulate. Bioware used to do this. Dragon Age Origins, Mass Effect, KOTOR. These were all games that were made before the huge push to live service games. Even games like Fable were pushing the boundaries at the time. Obviously with today's tech, BG3 is better, but if you look at those games as products of their time, BG3 isnt really that far-fetched of an expectation. We have just allowed the bar to be continually lowered over the last several years.

[@Kmaitland89]

Man, this isn't even true. Tears of the Kingdom, Jedi Survivor, RE4 Remake, Baldurs gate 3, Elden Ring, God of war Ragnarok, Breath of the Wild, Mario Odyssey, Spider Man. The list goes on and on of AAA games that are better than ever. Are there lots of bad ones? Yes, but they are not ALL going the wrong direction. This is such a pessimistic view and a wrong one.

[@aytony4090]

@Kmaitland89 Jedi Survivor is grossly overrated and was indeed broken at launch. Ragnorak was kind of a mess with its pacing and with FF16 upstaging it with boss fights is a little sad to look back on. Re4 Remake was really good but Capcom's scummyness know no bounds with Ada dlc dead silent as well as holding Wesker and Ada hostage from mercenaries as well. Tears of Kingdom although very great still has the stink of the first one with all its flaws as well but that said I would concede with Elden Ring and Tears being great examples of AAA industry still making bangers.

[@zackaryfaucher9301]

@@theobell2002i think you missed the point, They aren’t saying Fable and Kotor are as complex and well made as BG 3, they are saying that FOR THE TIME they were released, they pushed the boundaries of games with what limited tech they had, obviously BG3 is much more complex and has a lot more content, but it also was released in 2023 instead of 2003-2004

[@sp6rda]

@@Kmaitland89 Obviously not EVERY game in the last ten years is a horrible cashgrab, but if you look at all the big studios and take the average of all the games they have been making, you will definitely see a trend where the industry is moving away from consumer-friendly behaviors. Im not seeing BOTW developers complaining about BG3.

[@CL-jq1xs]

​@@aytony4090now we are even saying GoW Ragnarok is not up to standard..... i actually feel pity for devs at this point.

[@SuperPhoenixFrog]

Cohh totally missed the mark about the Dev/IGN discussion. People want all games to be this polished (or at least AAA games), not just talking about CRPG's. There's 0, zilch, nada, reason a AAA game shouldn't be this quality in all aspects, from RTS's to FPS's to colony sims and city builders they all should be highly polished but they are pushing out crappy battlepasses and mtx but not putting out as quality and feature complete games

[@MSPaintRose]

It bothers me still that he didn''t get this.

[@bradenhazle4378]

In terms of having a complete game with no MTX that's already a standard with story/non-live service games.

[@nicholasg.5441]

People have a right to complain about industry standards refusing to compete with Baldurs Gate 3. Market competition is the reason capitalism thrives and if devs and publishers refuse to match the market thats on them.

[@bobbob-cd9yl]

Not what the origional dev tweets were about at all but people just took them out of context and refused to read what the devs actually said

[@T.R.A.N.C.E]

Execs at EA, Ubisoft, Activision, Blizzard, etc would have to take a pay cut to compete and that's not happening. Devs at X company be like, "We would never be able to match this" (from their experience working at X company), not the devs fault though, particularly the smaller companies/indies. But big publishers don't have an excuse.

[@nicholasg.5441]

When I say market competition, I mean within the same price bracket. Of course a 20 dollar game shouldnt compete with a hundred dollar game, but any game requesting a hundred dollars plus micro should absolutely be held to the same or higher standard than BG3. If they cant meet the demand, that isnt the customers fault. Blame the publishers and execs for being greedy or blame the industry as a whole for normalizing it, but when better options exist for your products price range, that is certainly not the customers fault and its not on the customer to fix the issue.

[@synthiandrakon]

baldurs gate is an unreasonbly excessive game, it just is its like red dead redemtion 2, great games but i don't expect or want every game to be like that. Lets put it this way as someone who likes crpgs, if every crpg has to be like baldurs gate 3 now, the crpg genre would cease to exist. Plus lets be real no studio can sustainably make games like baldurs gate 3 its just too much work, part of the point devs are making is that they would actually like to go home and see their families at some point, and lets be real this level of detail for the most part does not happen on a comfortable 9-5 schedule

[@nicholasg.5441]

@@synthiandrakon I fully agree, but when it comes down to it, the consumer shouldnt be the ones taking the blame when FIFA is more expensive than BG3 and demands more on top of that, and NBA games have to tell their consumers to petition the belgium government to change their gambling laws if they want to play. Thats a much deeper problem than player expectation.

[@TombstoneUK]

Would be superb if they could get Sven on again and get his post release take on BG3 and perhaps what the future holds for BG3 and Larian

[@drcox012]

Only if Zeke asks the same question again 😂😂

[@saiwaqa2573]

If i pay full price for a AAA game i expect: - a full-release game not a half-finished game. - A game that does not require DLC to finish or unlock more of the game - A game that does not have blocked content behind season and battle passes - A game that is not crashing every 10 fcken minutes - A game that is not trying to bleed me dry after i just gave them 70 bucks. If AAA gaming can't give me that, i won't, i repeat i won't buy them anymore. the state of AAA gaming has actually been surpassed by gacha gaming in that you can play any gacha game for free, and have the same level of experience, with the same amount of content, same amount of microtransactions, same amount of online play, same amount of bps, skins etc and NEVER PAY A CENT. ABSOLUTELY BG3 SHOULD BE THE STANDARD. If a person is a Dev, a AAA dev and is telling me that they are gamers just like me, and they don't want to but they have to - i call bs. Not because they have to do it, but they aren't prisoners, they don't have to work in that environment. The truth is they don't care as long as they are getting paid. They are the bad guys in this scenario " oh i hate oil but wait, im gonna work in oil and gas".... WTF?

[@iCatCloud]

In regards to BG3 junk selling, you just have to start the conversation with the highest charisma character, then you can just swap to the "mule" and sell stuff.

[@VorpalSnak]

Rob all the items in the shops inv and sell it back to them, just like real life.

[@Equalyzer89]

​@@VorpalSnakat least this time there are no buckets involved. Hopefully ..

[@Nr4747]

I personally haven't noticed any difference in vendor prices based on charisma of my characters. If it does exists, it's likely pretty minor and a huge swap-aroo is probably unneccessary aswell since you can make plenty of coin in the game either way.

[@delphidelion]

​@@Nr4747a cha character tends to only have 8 to 10 str. Your main will usually be the one you vend with. So making sure they donate enough gold worth of items or just straight gold gets them to green and means 30% better transaction. But you have to have them start the vend everytime to make sure to keep the benefit.

[@Nr4747]

@@delphidelion Ah, interesting, I didn't know that.

[@_ryju_]

I am so glad it is the highest rated game on Opencritic. May even be the first even 98! Every gamer deserves this win, not just Larian!

[@synthiandrakon]

Not every game needs a character creator. Id argue most don't, its only in a game like baludrs gate that it feels meaningful. A lot of character creators are fuck around for 20 minutes and then it doesn't matter for the rest of the game

[@sigmar4564]

Yes Baldur's Gate 3 should be the Gold Industry Standard

[@BloodyBobJr]

Be very nice, but realistically don't think it will be. Not that other devs don't have the talent/time needed to make it happen. Mostly because big company publishers won't do it, like Blizzard, EA, Ubisoft. They want profit, making a game just for gamers and just.. a straight up product for enjoyment is secondary goal. Profit and making a game to make profit is their real goal. All those companies who make rpg type games always insert MTX, cosmetics, add-on, battle passes. More effort typically is put into those system then what Larian has done with cinematics, music, narrative, gameplay system, world design, etc. Larian is the gold standard of game made for gamers

[@LordlyWeeb]

It can't be. Be realistic

[@sigmar4564]

@@LordlyWeeb Enjoy your trash then

[@Kyriac]

I cant be. Be idealistic.@@LordlyWeeb

[@LordlyWeeb]

@Kyriac Games should always strive to be better but the fact is that as long as executives and other various high up suits get to act as they do, there are limitations in most AAA spaces. Sorry.

[@BigmanDogs]

I would be having a nervous breakdown if I was working on the dragon age 4 team. Thats probably the game I can think of whose reception will be harmed the most by baldurs gate. Especially since they have conciously deviated from the origins (pun intended) of the series.

[@Khryss-jr7ju]

And the series has suffered for it. Still the best one and only one I managed to actually complete was Origins. The rest I struggle to stick with and find I lose interest in.

[@TheTomoyaNagase]

@@Khryss-jr7ju for real. I see inquisition praised alot but it felt quite boring to me and a far far far shot from the quality of Origins.

[@Darkholow]

BG3 is once in a lifetime masterpiece of a juggenaut in the CRPG space. As someone who has over 100hours and is a fan of old school CRPG's I'm extremely happy and somewhat shocked that it's doing this numbers and reaching so much mainstream appeal..love to see it. Well deserved congrats to Larian and everyone involved...they went above and beyond with this game.

[@zamarickz]

Everyone knows that Larian/BG3 is an anomaly, but we also know that this was the standard 20 years ago. Game studios being run by passionate gamers that made games they wanted to play was the norm in the 90s and early 00s. Now they are run by business men that don't even play games and focus entirely on the profit potential. People are mad because Larian reminds us of what gaming used to be. They're an echo from a better era, and it's depressing that this style of game development is now considered an anomaly.

[@LakeVermilionDreams]

Blizzard, for one! I worry about Larian, because the Dark Knight line is proven with Blizzard: you either die a hero, or live long enough to be a villain.

[@sinisterplank3113]

​@@LakeVermilionDreamsto be fair, Larian has been around since the 90s too, and they're sticking to that way of making games.

[@noahmcclellan4372]

Thanks so much, needed a podcast with people who have actually played a significant amount of the game. Everyone else is talking about content I cleared in the first day or two. An all time game IMO so far, just started act 3.

[@shadowace940]

I like how Zeke said he probably wasn't going to play it too much...puts in like 40 hrs lol

[@shadybrain3424]

@@shadowace940 zeke is just notorious for playing games slower than everyone else for whatever reason.

[@luuxii]

Larian: "A game can have abundance of choices with actual consequences." Bethesda: surprised pikatchu face

[@space5814]

The difference is Larian deliver games, everyone else delivers a product. While Larian is measuring fun everyone else is measuring engagement metrics. The longer you keep a consumer engaged, the more they spend in your shops, buying the battle passes, the cosmetics, whatever else you're selling. Therefore the most important thing is to find (to them) ways to keep people playing, and the cost-effective way to do that is to design systems that increase that engagement metric - which is to say - make things take longer to achieve.

[@sinisterplank3113]

I think its a fundamental difference in philosophy. Larian are making money making games, as opposed to making games to make money. Their highest priority is the game, where others priority is the profit.

[@direnova6284]

BG3's success feels like my team just won the World Championship.

[@GD2X]

Hell yeah it should be a standard for AAA developers. Their AAA for a reason.

[@LakeVermilionDreams]

*They're

[@darkguardian50]

Cohh: "I don't think I've ever save-scummed" The Literal Narrator of the Game: "I'm talking to you CohhCarnage and your savescumming ways" Yes I understand he was being facetious. It's still funny.

[@sinisterplank3113]

I'm a little sad that joke kind of flew past the panel, I thought it was hilarious and deserved a good chuckle.

[@Choteron3]

Probably the best episode of the year. Amazing guest and topics

[@Keeli129]

I could almost see BG3 a crpg getting GoTY at the game awards this year as a possibility......might not be a big possibility but one none the less lol

[@stirfrysensei]

Lots of corporate shilling. Sad to see. Poor AAA developers, they rush out a broken game, charge premium price for it, add in mtx, and then cry on Twitter that their job is hard. Talk about first world problems.

[@theobell2002]

You realize developers don't decide deadlines, pricing and monetization systems, right?

[@fernandozavaletabustos205]

Yup, sadly those are the executives or shareholders.@@theobell2002

[@spec02alex]

No. The standard should be higher, since their budgets are much higher.

[@foulXD]

of course! EA, ubisoft, activision blizzard. all those companies have SO MUCH resources they are not using, in fact, they are using the bare minimum and fill those games with MTX. absolutely disgusting. i havent bought a game from any of those companies for at least 12 years.

[@spec02alex]

I mean look, there is something to be said for companies that make different genres of games. They get a little slack for trying new things and specializing in several genres. However, companies like Bethesda get no slack. They specialize in one type of game and thats open worlds. Every game they release should be a 9 minimum and minimum bugs. @@foulXD

[@foulXD]

after what bethesda did with fallout 76 (which is STILL buggy and new content is garbage) i spit on bethesda. last game i bought of them, was skyrim (which is horseshit without mods). i wouldnt be surprised if starfield releases buggy af and most of the shown mechanics and content got oversold. bethesda is essentially dead to me, same with blizzard, EA and ubisoft. bunch of hacks who forgot what makes games fun.@@spec02alex

[@Canucks4us]

I haven't been so engrossed in a game since i was a kid. I go to work and all i can think about is what i'll do in BG3 that day.

[@figuures6098]

I only ever will play Githyanki. My 1st playthrough I was a mf'in Space Paladin, and that's the coolest thing to me. I pledged an Oath to my Silver Sword to seek vengeance against all the dirty Mind Flayers in the Planes. Githyanki felt better and better, both in gameplay and story, the further I progressed.

[@rogerchandler2241]

Bg3 best game in atleast ten years

[@Repenter0]

On the long rest thing. You can long rest to get story/character elements without consuming supplies you simply choose not to use supplies and as a result you get a free long rest for story elements even if you don't recover stats.

[@tropicata]

I don't think people are saying they want every game to be BG3 in terms of scope and breadth of content. I don't even think MTX is the core issue. What people wanna see more from AAAs is deeper gameplay, characters you can connect with that are memorable and rich in personality, dialogue that's compelling and makes you give a shit about the story, and a world that's dense and alive and isn't padded out the ass with fluff and vapid filler. Modern AAA games have become increasingly lifeless as they've grown in scale, fidelity and budget, and BG3 stands out by being anything but lifeless. That should be the main takeaway here. It isn't that we need every game to be 100hr-long grand RPGs with 2 million voice lines, we're asking AAAs to put some god damn humanity into their games

[@docw85]

What i want to see is creativity. Most AAA games from Ubisoft, EA, ActiBlizz are just copy & paste stuff from already existing games. Having a new world or a detailed, historically accurate map of Paris in your game is great. But what's the point if everything done in it is the same, or just subpar and uninteresting?

[@theobell2002]

​@@docw85 EA, Ubisoft, Blizzard copy pasting: "Bad!" FromSoft copy pasting: "What an industry saver! 10/10 GOTY!"

[@grandcaprice]

Larian studios made BG3 in 6 years Diablo 4 took 7 years to make with 10 times the funding and staff and it's the most mediocre dogshit out there

[@gabrielhedin1697]

People will pre-order starfield before they know it's good so they will make the bag anyhow. Pls don't pre-order friends :)

[@leopard2690]

Something I recommend everyone. Don't do things you dont think are interesting. Skip side quests if you dont wanna do them, dont just work through your quests. Do what you like the game gives you enough power and loot.

[@Spyger9]

I absolutely prefer RPGs where I've given a character. It's cool that BG3 gives you that option AND custom characters, but there's nothing wrong with games of smaller scope just doing one.

[@synthiandrakon]

Hate to say it but idk how i feel about trying to minmax rests, i feel like part of the point is that you don't see everything. Maybe it's just me but i feel like games like baldurs gate especially on the first run are almost runined by minmaxxing. Right now everyone has different experiences they see different shit. But idk 6 months from now a lot od new players will have similsr playthroughs because they were looking up the same guides on how to do everything and get the best stuff

[@thoronirgros188]

I'll be very happy if more games like BG3 start being made, even if they're not all as good. Budget and scale is not everything. What really matters is what games are all about. More focus on good story telling and less on mindless grinding. Is that too much to ask? More Dragon age origins, less DA III.

[@TrampyPulsar]

The issue with AAA development is there are too many cooks in the kitchen, but everyone still needs to get paid. You don't need thousands of people to develop a game like WOW or Destiny 2. Molten Core in 2004 took a handful of developers a weekend to make as WOW's first raid instance as an example. When you have 1000 people working on a project that can really only be done by 20-30 people, you have to give them a reason to be around. This is an issue with how corporatism and publically traded companies screw with the game development. When it comes to stock trading, the gold standard is to have a company that grows grows grows, but infinite growth isn't sustainable. And when it comes to producing games, you don't need massive corporations to develop a game, but growth demands that those team sizes grows. And you can't grow the development side without ruining product, so you grow sales and marketing, and as Steve Jobs pointed out, once the sales and marketing teams take over the company, it becomes less about developing a good product and more about pumping sales, and the way the games industry did this was by gutting the experience to repackage and resell it as day 1 DLC, microtransactions, ect. Which is why you have so many AAA developers being hamstrung by their own teams, where the priorities goes to making sure the cash shops work perfectly, even if the gameplay is hot garbage, such as the hardcore D4 player losing his character to an emergency hotfix to fix the cash shop.

[@katarjin]

11:00 ES,Ubisoft and Acti-Bliz have DECADES of experience and way more resources and still can't make good games these days..too focused on getting all the money and abusing their staff.

[@jaketyler9003]

You have podcast with timestamps. Subbed immediately

[@BloodyBobJr]

I never really liked Bards in older DnD games like.. even BG 1 and 2. I sorta played one Neverwinter nights 2 and they were much better. Holy crap.. in BG 3 their insanely strong. Not even in a pure tactical/fighting way, their still good in combat and provide amazing support/casting. Just in every other aspect of the game with skills, dialog and questing. My bard/warlock can virtually do everything, main thief with lockpicks/disarm (but sucks finding traps). Bartering and selling is easier and faster, dialog is a breeze and deception/persuasion/intimidation all possible. AND it's super fun, u get unique interesting dialog options, singing, doing performances.. I'd never expect to enjoy it so much (I've heard in 5th DnD their super strong, but don't really play). The best cutscene in the game so far for me.. is a hill overlooking the druid grove and a certain demon lady feeling sad. I won't spoil any of it, but when you find it you will know

[@LakeVermilionDreams]

Their insanely strong what?

[@sinisterplank3113]

This is a credit to 5th edition. They really put Bards back on the menu with 5e.

[@kyontv6826]

Early in the game I'm just looking for a ring in a barn and to my surprise ended up in a human mushroom colony underground.. It's so much fun how unpredictable this game is.

[@Machobunni]

But... Bethesda did lie about fallout 76, they did make claims that they didnt deliver. Cohh be full of Bethesda copium. However the analogy that no one was as high as CDP and fell as far I agree with

[@silenceyouidiot]

I still feel like No Man's Sky is king of people getting hyped but then it came out in one of the worst states where the director lied to the scale of Peter Molyneux on expectations vs what the Devs could actually accomplish at the time.

[@sethchapman1425]

Must be just me that wants companies to do their best every time, not to be about greed, and not have to wait for the community to mod something.

[@nokturnallex2160]

Yea I already had 0 hype for Starfield because of how bad the recent Microsoft and Bethesda releases have been. I'm glad BG3 is setting other people's expectations higher. As gamers we really need to put our foot down and force gaming companies to stop being greedy and just focus on making good games.

[@sinisterplank3113]

To be fair, they are doing their best every time, it's just that their priority and understanding of best is fundamentally different from the consumers. Larian is a rare example of a bigger studio who's priorities align with consumers and they are deservedly celebrated for it.

[@sethchapman1425]

@@sinisterplank3113 I can say that is fair a description.

[@benjaminmatheny6683]

BG3 brought immersive sim elements to a CRPG. That's what makes it different.

[@jepeman]

Ultima 7 from 1992 did the sim elements thing first, obviously not as well, as the technology simply wasn't there. Same studio made the original System Shock too. And Ultima Online, there hasn't been same kind of MMORPG ever since, itself included, as its been completely changed and IMO ruined a long time ago. Richard Garriott was/is also a super passionate CEO, but has gone off the deep end in his later years (one word, NFTs).

[@Buzzdog1971]

I would expect the experience of all of the Elder Scrolls and Fallout 3 and 4 that Starfield should be at the same level as Baldur's Gate 3. But we all know it will not be. Starfield will be loaded with all of the classic Bethesda bugs that will have to be fixed by the community in the un-official bug fixes. It is a copout to say that Baldur's Gate 3 creates false expectations. What ever happened to a game setting the bar and all other developers trying to pass it. We live in an age of mediocracy in games, film, and TV/Streaming shows. As consumers we should expect quality in our purchases.

[@Silentpoppy]

Bethesda as a studio is really good at building sandboxes but much like sandboxes in real life it is up to everyone else to bring their own toys (mods)

[@theobell2002]

Bugs are the least of Bethesda's issue. There's fundamental design philosophy issues in the company that can't just be fixed by mods or a patch. Don't get me wrong, I'm looking forward to Starfield but I'm not exactly expecting a good roleplaying game. It's just gonna be a glorified action adventure where there's no real consequences for your actions like all their other games. Also imagine saying we live in the age of mediocracy when Bethesda's games have been the definition of mediocre since Oblivion.

[@TheWindwall]

Hell yeah! Time for the real weekend programming. Thanks for the quick upload as always.

[@ElevenHymn]

That IGN video is the epitome of garbage ragebait milking views from a brewing circlejerk. I implore everyone to actually read all 10 tweets of the twitter thread that the IGN video cherry picks from, and then compare it to what the IGN video claims. It was an indie dev (not AAA) stating that most CRPGs do not have the luxury of a 400+ dev team (excluding contractors; this is AAA level), 6 year dev time, and be allowed to be in Early Access for 3 years while using a brand, Dungeons and Dragons, that's currently at the height of it's popularity following a movie. The game still even released with a pretty large amount of bugs, varying in severity; other games would be raked over the coals for that following Early Access.

[@waraidako]

When an indie developer says "don't expect this from us" it's like yeah no shit, no one was. But when AAA studios then come out of the woodwork to say the same... No, I will absolutely expect it from you. It may not be the coder monkeys themselves deciding the schedule and content of the games, but that doesn't change that they shouldn't be rewarded for half-baked overly monetised games that are released often over a year before they're even done. BG3 was indeed an anomaly but not in terms of them being in a particularly unique position, but in terms of them actually taking their time and finishing their game before releasing it. That is, unfortunately, an anomaly these days, but if EA or Blizzard or Ubisoft try to sit there and pretend like they can't afford to also take 6 years to make a game that's actually good, and that isn't filled to the brim with microtransactions, that's some fucking grade A bullshit. They CHOOSE not to do that. The publishers CHOOSE not to let them do that. BG3 got to top seller globally on Steam a few days before relase, and it is still there 3 weeks later, only recently having been overtaken by FromSoft's new Armoured Core game that comes out tomorrow. Larian was rewarded with amazing sales for making a quality game and proved, like The Witcher 3 before it, that you do not need microtransactions to be profitable. You just need a good product. There are however a lot of boards of directors who would rather make a shit game and squeeze the money out of the players with shark cards and overpiced skins rather than stay hands off and letting the process take its time. That is what the community is railing against.

[@nathanielsoucie-porter936]

BG3 has sated my craving for an honest to God authentic gaming experience, and I think that's the story for a lot of people. It's been a long time since we got a game like BG3, and I don't mean in terms of game play or even dynamic story arcs. I'm talking about monetization models polluting every single game that was released over the last decade or so. This isn't to say the gameplay, story, characters, voice acting and OST, player agency, and just about every other aspect of BG3 isn't absolutely incredible, but I think the gaming community as a whole is sick and tired of monetization models and BG3 shows what a team can produce when they aren't bogged down with worrying about battle passes and cosmetics and premium currencies.

[@fernandozavaletabustos205]

Baldur's gate 3 and Larian Studios deserve all the success of the world!!

[@theorangewarrior03]

I understand that Larion and BG3 are anomalies, however I also strongly believe that they shouldn't be. We should not be made to feel wrong to expect all game companies to be run by people who are passionate about games and want to deliver good products above simply rinsing the consumer out of every possible dime. That is the standard we should hold, for example we cannot realistically expect a bg3 level game from an indie dev, but we can expect them to deliver the best possible product with their available resources because most indie devs are passionate about their game. With triple A companies, we should be able to expect high quality games filled with passion because they have insane resources at hand. The problem is half of the top level of those companies are filled with people who don't even get involved with games, yet they get to determine many aspects of them which is plain wrong.

[@twohorsesinamancostume7606]

BG3 is no more complicated than how games USED to be even a 5 years ago. Frankly I find the excuses offered by the major studios to be pathetic.

[@chickenmonger123]

I love that more people are experiencing 5e. The rule set is rather elegant in what it allows. Not graceful in how that works out per se. But the things it decides are important and the way it organizes itself is, in the scope of combination. Nothing it does happens in a vacuum. Everything interacts in some manner, allowing the rule set to cover it. The amount of time looking up how RAW interactions, and realizing that in fact you CAN do what I thought you might be able too is excellent. The Sage Advice stuff usually is clarification, to reconfirm, and so you can take it to your DM with some degree of legitimacy. I’m probably some degree of Munchkin, Rules Lawyer. But mostly because that is the part of the game I like. So I don’t think I let that harsh anyone else’s buzz. The story slides over that stuff for me. Some play the opposite, but even then knowing the mechanical part works there. You just have to explain how the play drapes over the machine so nothing sticks too far out from under there.

[@asheroc4709]

I don’t think making a complete, engaging, and truly passionate game is an anomaly. Doesn’t have to have a billion dollar budget to be all three of those qualities. And blaming the gamers for your failure to complete those basic requests is disgusting. All studios need to step back and learn from larian.

[@MrCreativeEgo]

Regarding the discussion about dipping: if you don't have a candle or another source of fire, you can dip you weapon in Karlach. And that's not an euphemism.

[@Mythaelos]

Baldur's Gate 3 is as good as games used to be. Anyone calling it an anomaly does so through the lens set by an industry that has since transformed the environment in which such games were normal.

[@Silvertaurus_]

Larian developers do not work for Swen to deliver game that will earn money Swen works for developers, to sell game they make. Origially developers needed big companies to handle all this publishing, advertisement and legal stuff, so they can make big games. That's how big games of old came to be, when passionate groups of developers made studios and just worked under umbrella of big companies. But this relation over years flipped back, and big companies want to make money by making games, so games are tuned to max profit...

[@GMarc29]

It's the people who ask for collectors' items. Miniatures of their favorite BG3 characters. I'd pay to have a miniature of my warrior or Karlach, maybe.

[@damianfirecaster7230]

I love this discussion about BG3 you guys are having this is great Thank you.

[@kingxiong505]

This is the first time I took a game seriously regarding the gameplay and story since the likes of The Witcher 3, RDR 2, TLOU 1 and 2. Thanks Larian Studio!

[@Nasahuta]

Is a world record an anomaly or a bar that others should strive to beat?

[@LakeVermilionDreams]

Right, nobody should ever try to beat Olympic records, nope, fans should only expect 5th best! Like you, I don't get that attitude!

[@Justin-ee1mv]

Watching this again makes me more excited to see to the shitstorm or insane release next month

[@Darkasasin80]

I'm definitely the kind of player to choose a more vanilla race and a charisma class my first playthrough unless there is something really really appealing to me to make me do otherwise.

[@lillkvirran]

Really liked Dan's point around Bethesda's modding scene. Like just as an example, one of my favour FO4 mods just had a huge update just around the release of BG3, that I really hope to be able that I can squeeze in a playthrough in-between BG3 and Starfield now. With the excitment level almost being on par for that as these two games!

[@kephalai]

1:35:20 Dan transforms into Cohh

[@crazyt4c0]

Great spot that was hilarious!

[@oran1plays]

Some Devs just need to price their games properly and not put $60/70 is the value of all games when many are no were near as good. Not all games are the same and that's okay, just know their value.

[@Ayay01]

Cohh and the rest of the gang is way to excited ,,can not risk watching this because of spoilers ,,,oh well waiting another week lol

[@Deathelement53]

I absolutely want a dropped frames playthrough of the game

[@nr1771]

That would never happen, the game is way too long.

[@Equalyzer89]

​@@nr1771the crew genuinely enjoys their time together; I could see it being treated like a 1-2 year DnD campaign ✌️

[@Deathelement53]

​@@nr1771even if it was just act 1 I would be happy

[@n4l9bx]

god that would be so funny and infuriating XD

[@impotenceaura]

Baldur's Gate 3 is the quality of RPG that Cyberpunk advertised itself as.

[@Equalyzer89]

But kinda obvious for me that the depth and care and workload to bring what BG3 succeeded into a FPS-RPG hybrid is an even more challenging thing to develop. Maybe. Still hopeful for the CP2077 DLC and everything that it'll bring with it.

[@Badbentham]

Exactly this: The promise from CDPR, also the starting point of Bethesda since Daggerfall and Morrowind, was to make an immersive, dynamic, non-linear, reactive game world, with a myriad of choices and consequences that truly matter: An RPG in its "true" sense. - Of course, putting all this into an Open World FPS title, compared to a Turn Based RPG with its (large) zones, is quite the mammoth task . However: BG3 of all game titles is indeed the first one that actually lives up to its promises.

[@RelaxingD]

Cyberpunk in my opinion is the superior game at this point in time...people can have different tastes in gaming

[@exysa2798]

Yes. But Cyberjunk was made by inexperienced amateurs and scammers

[@exysa2798]

​@@BadbenthamCDPR are inexperienced amateurs and scammers

[@0Pinger]

Re JP against streamers playing game early. I am for it, the streamers PC🎉 setup is a factor but if you have 3 too 5 days warning before you can still cancel a preorder if the game is a buggy mess Didn't know the RDR update was for consoles only, another slap in face

[@SourBogBubble]

For AAA studios yes for indies and everyone else continue as usual.

[@MSPaintRose]

I disagree with Cohh's framing of Larian Studios. Blizzard has 20 years of experience in ARPGs and MMOs. Bungie and Activision have 20 years of experience in Shooters. Bethesda has 20 years in Open Worlds with Ubisoft having 16 years. CD Project Red with 16 years as well. All of these AAA studios, and we are talking about AAA studios having the same amount of experience with more employees and way more money. I don't understand Cohh's point. No one is talking about smaller Indies than Larian or even studios that are barely larger than them. People are obviously talking about other Massive AAA studios that some have an even larger parent company owning them. It bothers me, when it shouldn't, that the framing was changed here.

[@thant0s]

Attitude is exclusive between each individual character. Also the value required to max reputation is different from vendor to vendor. The reason to "bother" with reputation and gold is for all the things that are actually worthwhile, which are worth such a high value that they are difficult to directly pickpocket. Ideally you can steal more than enough items to sell back to vendors to get the money you need for gear, but the massive discounts / favorable selling rates for high Reputation are well worth the investment if you intend to purchase more than a single item.

[@lukagremory6618]

I agree with coh but what trigger people is the way they said it. We as customer demand the best of the product we buy, but when people from the company that make that product said "dont expect thing is same quality as this product" people will take it negatively.

[@pul0y]

Send to camp EVERYTHING!! My camp: single candle away from killing everyone coz all the smokepowder barrel, firewine barrels and all the other good stuff are there. Wulbren and I are of one mind!!

[@aimeerobidoux7635]

I spent about 41 hours in act 1, doing everything I could find, then about 39 hours in Act 2 (once again, doing everything I could), then 75 hours in Act 3. Definitely the biggest act. I've started two more playthroughs and 40 hours is about the average length for act 1 if you are decent at the mechanics and don't skip any quests.

[@ChronoTriggerHappy]

step 1: load a box or barrel full of explosive devices, of your choosing (or mix for wacky crazy bombs) step 2: give barrel full of explosives to high strength barbarian or character, give them items that increase throw damage for extra effect. step 3: get into fight with alot of characters or high health character step 4: chuck the barrel full of explosives at middle of group or high priority target or boss. step 5: if maximum explosive effort is not met, allow ranged character to plink remaining explosives that spill from cracked barrel, put on sunglasses, and walk away.

[@jaxonfreeman1756]

Anyone who has played BG3 to completion will not be fully satisfied with other inderior offerings. I think what you're seeing happening over at Bioware is a direct repercussion of the release of BG3. Bioware looked at Dreadwolf in comparison and realized they had to re-evaluate DragonAge moving forward. Bethesda should do the same when it comes to ES6.

[@miinyoo]

I think this is a great conversation. It ultimately boils down to is it a good game on all fronts. I take the side that value comes with excellent work. Value isn't distributed equally. If there is an excellent game I'll give Hearthstone for example which doesn't follow tradition, let them make money because they put out a good product. That's all people want. Not the other way around like Star Citizen where you put in money and the product will get better. No, it simply got more ridiculous. Fuck off until it's quality. Find a way. The onus is not on the consumer to help you along aka D4. Now I get to go into a rant. Sorry for this. Movies and TV don't get this luxury of fixing shit after the fact like Cyberpunk to make good on a good experience. That's not how it works. First impressions all the metric and you can't go back. I think those companies are suffering greatly because they think they have an undo button but they don't and so they have to be disciplined as much as they are not. Gaming has the same qualities now at least and has the ability to Undo. Well that's just not acceptable. It is accepted by necessity but that trend causes people to lose trust same as they have in the streaming morass and movies. It's not a money issue, it's a trust issue fundamentally and that's why Larian walked to the bank for the amount of bank they actually deserved. No game deserves infinite money. If it's good it deserves to be recouped the costs, lather all of the devs with jet skis and there be plenty left over to make another hit and then some because you never know how the outside world will impact your efforts.

[@vazzaroth]

I'll never understand why being interested in human stories and opinions is pathologized so much. Drama is literally the very first type of entertainment humans keyed into besides eating and doin' it (And sometimes relates to these!) so ofc it catches people's interest. It's useless drama that's stupid, but the whole point of useless drama is that everyone wants to know about it to figure out if it's stupid or not! So anyway I don't think there's any shame at all in saying you wanna hear the drama, but yea, getting caught up in pointless, tedious gossip is still a fairly boring experience for me and a lot of people. The thing all the lowest-common-denominator news outlets exploit is that a click =/= actual good content. But ads only care about the click. So as usual, the real complaint is capitalism (and it's hellsapawn Marketing this time) yet again.

[@gusmlie]

Everyone who says yes needs to do one simple thing to make the change. Stop pre ordering. Stop allowing the likes of EA, Ubisoft, Take Two from banking your cash.

[@kowaikokoro]

gamers embrace good games like BG3, hopefully starfield is the same or pushes that goalpost off what a GOTY means but i highly doubt it'll receive the same public perception as BG3 currently has, we're talking 90+% positive reviews on steam with over 800k players on the weekend, all that for a CRPG which by some AAA people was deemed dead. Not only did larian ''revive'' the genre it made every single RPG prior and post launch raise it standards. From the fully unique voicelines to the insane variety the game has to offer in its problem solving, give it a year or 2 for definitive edition and that'll be a completely different playthrough

[@_aullik]

As for the IGN thing. The reason i see that many AAA devs get so defensive is their pride. What have they created in their career? Have they worked on anything that is actually loved by fans or are they just associated with some PR disaster? Even when its good games, if someone tells me he worked on Jedi Survivor the first thing one thinks of is the horrible release. I just think that deep down those people know they purposefully develop something inferior and that must mess with their sense of achievement. At the end of their career what can they look back to? This is were i see the big "problem" they have with BG3. They don't make their game worse on purpose and they show that it is not some law that you cannot work around, that it is a decision whether you wanna make something inferior for money or not.

[@jesusl3716]

Yes Baldurs gate is a fresh achievement, recovering what others lost, reminds me how good video games innovation was before 2013, what makes bad videogames are all this waves of ideologysts devs inundated the industry with awful repetitive gameplay and cash grabbing ideas.

[@DarkScreamGames]

Do you see any other CEOs saying their team are literal masters of their craft? No, you don't. The average game studio CEO doesn't even play the games they make, and even if they did, they don't try to cultivate that type of talent. That is where ALL the AAA developer dialogue is coming from - They know what they are, they are the McDonalds of video games. McDonalds cannot provide you the gourmet experience Larian can. But that is why those companies are gonna have a real bad year in 2024, Like it or lump it, the consumer has spoken. And spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler spoiler Yeah... mr tentacle man tries to get with you too...

[@LakeVermilionDreams]

Industry shills trying to temper expectations are telling on themselves! And shills on podcasts/vodcasts are clinging on to corporate sponsorships with takes like this! Hahaha just keep telling on yourselves!

[@MrJake8555]

34:00 you are not exaggerating zeke, I closed the door on those first bandits in the ruins and one was in the door way, so I think the door being locked meant he couldnt move forward or back since he was in the doorframe but he literally SPAMMED the check locks way more then 8 times

[@bobmario9]

I played the game with a friend and we just killed anything and anyone aligned with the Absolute generally. I played a tiefling Gloomstalker Ranger and he is a Half-elf Valor bard unfortunately he's usually on the front lines and goes down pretty often

[@sinisterplank3113]

To give Larian even more credit for bumping launch, sure it's easy to say it was smart in hindsight, but they made that decision not knowing how the chips would fall, it was a very risky decision they made based on their faith in their product.

[@Ghostwasabi]

I did the opposite, I went full on evil on my first playthrough, and my 2nd one is a good druid playthrough

[@SmugglerSteel]

The only tweaking I did to the origin characters is redistributed their ability points. Their stats are awful. I look at it helping new players optimism for what they want. LOL

[@TheRodonji]

Sounds like JP was consistently 2-3 levels higher than me throughout the game. When I realizied that it made sence he thought the game was a bit to easy.

[@Monnisti]

I too find the game too easy on tactician but i also was level 7 when i got to last light inn. Heard people get there at level 4 and im just wondering how is it possible. Maybe only going from mainquest objective to objective

[@TheRodonji]

@@Monnisti all though not nearly as bad as it was in D:OS 1 and 2, talking your way out of fights lose you massive amounts of XP. If you always try to do that you really start to fall behind. 4 by last hope is pretty bad though, I was barely level 6 when getting there.

[@Thurmanation2011s]

For thos waiting for the PS5 without a PC. The game is streamable w/ Geforce on a Roku or Smart TV.

[@RelaxingD]

Devs ripped Elden Ring too...embarrassing

[@foulXD]

horizon forbidden west devs were especially salty because elden ring stole the show (released 1 week after horizon), lmao.

[@XxWolfxWaRioRxX]

Nearly every big name studio today just doesn't have the talent or passion that Larian studios has and especially it's studio head are there talented devs that are forced to make crap yes but a lot of em are just lacking the talent and direction devs like Larian have

[@damianfirecaster7230]

We want good game we dont give a DAM who's job it is to do that but GIVE use good games Simple !!!

[@VladTheRad]

I mean the question really should be "Shouldn't BG3 be the industry standard?"

[@JohnDoe-ur3tr]

Backpack bomb or Mage Hand suicide bombing is still the most fun for me!

[@MarkOfTzeentch]

JP.. you can have a 5-some.. if Halsin is in your party, he will join in too..

[@handumf]

Just asking this question, shows how bad quality AAA games are today!