Should Hans Niemann's Career End?

[@UdyKumra]

"If I had to choose who to have dinner with, I would choose Magnus. Now he probably wouldn't show up, but I don't mind eating by myself." Lol what a legend

[@tjtennisicmroll2k]

Did Magnus ruin Han's life, did Han's ruin Han's life, or did Han's life not get ruined? tune in next week.

[@anosmianAcrimony]

My favourite was the guy in chat who said, "Maybe Magnus would show up, eat one bite, and leave" LOL

[@ryanjavierortega8513]

Lol

[@josemanuel947]

@@tjtennisicmroll2k i think Han´s life wont get ruined at the end, at least in chess

[@w1mark275]

@@anosmianAcrimony If Magnus and Hans were competitive eaters xD

[@Julian-br7wb]

FIDE: "After careful deliberation, the committee has decided that both Magnus and Hans shall be put to death!"

[@Fontaami]

Deathmatch!

[@2DarkHorizon]

More like have a game of chess boxing.

[@zBrain0]

@@2DarkHorizon is it safe to box with a butt plug inserted?

[@rickneibauer1]

Literally lol'd

[@robertm3561]

Lol 😂

[@SophisticatedBanjo]

This cheating drama has honestly made me more of a Finegold fan, because I think Ben has consistently had the most honest and level-headed opinion on the situation of any major content-creator.

[@jimmysaha9506]

I agree. He is the only one not ignoring any of the facts to support his side.

[@evelybeck8181]

Question. My understanding of the FIDE code of ethics states that accusing someone of cheating is a violation of the code of ethics and rules of fair play. Does this mean that technically everyone that is a FIDE member making accusations of cheating is at risk of disciplinary action?

[@DashRetro]

@@evelybeck8181 I think Ben mentioned this specifically in another video that FIDE should come down on Magnus for this.

[@nikhilmalik62]

Id say levy is pretty fair in his recounting and not coming to conclusions. If anything I would say Rosen has been petty level headed as usual, Ben is fair and honest but he has a pointed sharp delivery style

[@13anjowizard]

wrong, from the very beginning ben has gone into overdrive putting in overtime to defend all cheaters by acting like a steretoypical defense attourney from the tribe. We all know Hans is a cheater.

[@serbach]

“What did you do when YOU were 19? You pled the 5th!” Good line, Ben!

[@pattyrocha9955]

Here's an angle you didn't seem to cover during this video: as Hans cheated online on prize tournaments, he stole opportunities from other professional chess players and as he cheated and his rank raised, it granted him spots on OTB tournaments as well. So, maybe if he hadn't cheated online, he wouldn't even been able to play in person against Magnus in that tournament. And then when you know someone has a pattern of cheating, it gets harder not to be suspicious all the time, which makes things more complicated, because then something he does that doesn't seem natural, it might throw off another player thinking he might be cheating. Also, other players might think it's not fair for him to be there because his rating might be fabricated, and could decide they don't want to play him. So it is not easy to separate the online matches from the OTB matches.

[@jerrybernini9491]

Here's a handy little dictum: falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.

[@andysanders262]

Yes! This is what I’ve been saying. If I’m a team playing In the super bowl vs a team that cheated in 50% of their games to get there, does it matter to me if they don’t cheat in my game? Probably not. Anybody can get lucky or play great and win a game, but it doesn’t make them world champions if they cheated to climb the ladder. Hell even Ben here can beat magnus on a good day…doesn’t mean he deserves what comes his way for doing it once if he shouldn’t be there in the first place

[@markdierker4292]

It's telling how many are quick to defend the online cheating. What's the line of thought here? "cheating is different if there is a reasonable expectation of not getting caught."? It's totally cracking me up that otherwise intelligent people cant understand the situation. To say he has 5 million dollars of other peoples money isn't a difficult argument to make (he is a fraud). Too many people think that given enough money any action becomes righteous.

[@lorcster6694]

@@markdierker4292 nobody is defending it. Although they are saying he did it as a kid so it shouldn't define his whole life

[@pattyrocha9955]

@@markdierker4292 who's defending it in this thread? 🤔

[@davewestner]

Unless he's proven totally guilty of OTB cheating, it'd be a missed opportunity to not let Hans play tourneys. Every sport needs a villain. I'd be willing to bet that Hans would be as big of a draw as Magnus, at least as long as he doesn't drop down to 2500 or something

[@kingcarisma]

Yes, he's like Darth Vader now!

[@MrBorndd]

@@kingcarisma Twisted by the dark side, young Niemann has become.

[@grubbygrub8332]

thats completely wrong in every way. tournaments get money by gaining sponsors, and no company is going to want to sponsor a tournament with a player whos suspected of cheating

[@davewestner]

@@grubbygrub8332 I'm sure they'd look the other way if it lined their pockets a bit better.

[@raymondsublett3108]

@kingcarisma except Vader was a badazz. Neimann is more of an Ewok.

[@PhatLvis]

Neiman has demonstrated, for years, that he's very, very good at chess. But only Sometimes. He's erratic, which stands to reason considering his self-described intuitive and often ambitious (as opposed to risk-averse) style of play. He's also an admitted devotee of Carlsen, and so knows his moves and tactics perhaps better than anyone else's, and with the way Carlsen had been dismissive and condescending toward Neiman over the past few years, it only makes sense that the teenager would have been gunning for the Master - which is exactly what Neiman has claimed to be the case. He brought his A game, while Carlsen - by his own admission - played poorly in their Sinquefield game.

[@rastafarianbarbarian6766]

Yeah but the g3 nymzo line which Magnus has rarely ever played being the exact line he's prepared for, and if indeed he did, the subsequent analysis, do seem highly suspicious, you'll have to admit.

[@phenax1144]

@@santiagomorales9129 Take a chill pill

[@Morphysince94]

@@phenax1144 take a common sense pill

[@phenax1144]

@@Morphysince94 Man had one million question marks

[@neillore7332]

GM "cheating online is not a big deal." ME: "Bwaaaaaaaa????"

[@martinskanal]

this dude is a clown

[@xxslysinxx]

This is like saying eSports professionals, Dota LoL CSGO and others can cheat during a casual pub game but can't cheat on LAN tournaments.

[@GK-ee7mw]

Yeah I mean just rated games outside of tournaments I think it’s not a huge deal; yeah it sucks and I’d be mad if I played a cheater but it’s not “ban for life” type of thing. I do think cheating in a money tournament online deserves to throw the book at them (like Hans’ coach who got banned and got another chance like 3 times)

[@alexk9295]

@@GK-ee7mw I'm not familiar with what rankings can do for you in chess, but if a certain rank allows you to play in certain tournaments, then yes it matters just as much as it matters as cheating in the money tournament itself.

[@SilverVayne]

@@GK-ee7mw No, it's a ban for life type of thing. Real life, online, no prize money, prize money, no title, title, casual or rated. You cheat once, you don't deserve to play ever.

[@benvendergood1064]

In the game that Magnus lost, Hans played well but MC played that game rather poorly. In this singular instance that was the catalyst for all this ... the game on both sides of the equation looked pretty human. No weird or fantastic moves really ......

[@DeuceGenius]

pretty sure its gone for a long time before that

[@phonesgiveeveryoneadhd2826]

Engine moves look boring

[@TheViking75]

After the match he said he by coincidence looked at the exact same lines that very morning. He has still a problem explaining the line. Weird..

[@benvendergood1064]

@@TheViking75 Everything Hans says is being picked apart now. Like many of us, what he meant to say is that he was noodling with similar variations. These lines are many but on the same theme. I played the Sicilian Dragon for years and could inevitably make the same statement about my pre-game prep after every game. Bearing in mind that I am not Magnus and would not want to be Hans right now. Whether he did or didn't is irrelevant. It's like someone accusing you of being a pedophile. Hans can never be "exonerated". ☺

[@benvendergood1064]

@@DeuceGenius Maybe. Yet Magnus never says a word in several tournaments leading up to this game, and only gets "righteous" about it after he loses? It isn't like Hans went on to win any of these tournaments by the way. I am not defending Hans, just noting the inequity of the situation. ☺

[@TuxedoTalk]

I want to see a double blind study on cheating. Have tournaments where there are people cheating and see how good cheating experts are at finding them.

[@TheGibber]

I don't think you know what a double blind study is... xD

[@theveni12345]

So the cheaters wouldn't even know if they were cheating or not 🤔

[@emailjwr]

So technically OP can be right. If he's referring to the people playing the cheaters and the arbiters reviewing the games would both be blinded.

[@tplmkhize]

Next video title: Should Hans wash his hands after using the toilet?

[@GK-ee7mw]

I watched Hikaru‘s video on the analysis saying Hans had many 100% and 90% games OTB (while basically no other super GM does). I wish Ben would address this more deeply than just “it didn’t happen” because the data analysis seemed pretty solid and showed some clear discrepancies for Hans vs basically all other GMs.

[@someverycool4552]

It's already been debunked quite widely. The methodology to check for cheating like this is flawed. The metric is not showing what people think it does. The metric in Chessbase can be manipulated with. The more engines you use to measure this metric the higher the likely number becomes and Hans games were analysed with many engines including some obscure ones and some named "Unknown". Because for each move it will try to see if it matches any potential engine, not for the whole game but in any move against any machine and then it's a match. You could write an engine that will always pick a move Hans made and then all Hans games would be 100%.

[@Shoreditch]

The anonymous (gambit-man) second hand (FM Yosha Iglesias) data Hikaru used is flawed and unreliable. I've checked many of Niemann's games using the same Chessbase Let's Check analysis and Stockfish 15, including the alleged ten 100% games, and got very different results. For example, four of the alleged 100% games came back as less than 100%, one of those alleged 100% games (round 2 of the 4th Sharjah Masters 2021) coming back as 82%. But if you find that shocking another of those alleged 100% games Niemann-Cornette (round 6 of the 7th Sunway Sitges 2020 game) gave an Engine/Game Correlation of White = 88%, Black = 78%. Also the data used does no take into account long lines of opening theory, forced moves, known endgame strategies etc. Neither does it compare the correlation of both players. Then there's the question of sampling size. The Niemann sampling was taken from 360 games, which means that my analysis found one game in sixty to be 100%. The comparison data used by Hikaru was taken from a far smaller sample, sometimes as little as one or two but never more than twenty games.

[@sharonjuniorchess]

@@someverycool4552 What about the correlation between ACPL (average centipawn loss) and STDACPL (Standard Deviation of ACPL) which for a sample of top players was found to be around 90+% when measured according to their ELO rating at the time yet for Hans (after 2018) proved to have very little correlation? Obviously one has to take these measures with a pinch of salt but the more one looks at the data the more red flags start to appear. This is how fraud detection works in the world of commerce. Everyone leaves footsteps.

[@someverycool4552]

@@sharonjuniorchess I saw ACPL analysis by a Brazilian data scientist just recently, but I haven't had too much time to look into it yet. Not sure if you are referring to that. There were few things that I think should be improved, I think it had only 6 GMs, but they should automate the process and take Top 100 and see what the outliers are then. I couldn't tell if the players were cherry picked or not. It's too early for me to claim anything based on that ACPL analysis. There's also playing styles that could affect ACPL, for example aggressive risk taking probably or choosing novel, uncomfortable positions for both players strategically could mean higher ACPL.

[@luizfelipemedeiros7506]

First unbiased and logical analysis I hear. People are inverting the onus of proof to an insane level. Thanks

[@ceciltucker7291]

This guy is biased as hell and he comes off as stupid in most of what he says. “He lost 9 games so what kind of cheating is that?” Yea as if cheaters always cheat in 100% of games. The guy is an idiot.

[@FrenkieWest32]

Arent you literally commenting on a video with a 72-page report as proof?

[@ericshoemaker9140]

Ben's comments on Miami are hilarious though.

[@ryanjavierortega8513]

So good to see the Grandmaster’s KZbin channel doing well

[@SockTaters]

6:56 "If I had to have dinner with one of them, it's Magnus. Now, he wouldn't show up." No, he'd show up, eat one bite, and leave

[@KravMagoo]

Hey, you can read! 7:39 Comment by tonyrubak

[@SockTaters]

@@KravMagoo This is the saddest day of my life

[@KravMagoo]

@@SockTaters If it happens again, you will be labeled a plagiarist for life, because once a plagiarist, always a plagiarist.

[@LizaFan]

@@SockTaters FIDE has already launched an inquiry.

[@computerflight2145]

Why is ben lumping naroditsky and hikaru together as people who just "look at the game with an engine and decide hans was cheating" Hikaru did that... Naroditsky had a much more nuanced take and didn't conclude hans was cheating.

[@skibbles827]

Right, he kinda threw them under the bus there

[@djfootfoot]

It’s refreshing to hear a thoughtful level headed take on this. Innocent until proven guilty. Right?

[@dengai2932]

Guilty until proven innocent.

[@ceciltucker7291]

Thoughtful and level headed??? Did we watch the same video? He was wrong in so many ways.

[@ericmandolesi9590]

You know what? If you build a reputation as cheater, whenever you win your reputation will work against you. Truth hurts :)

[@GrimeUK777]

You can't not like this guy. realist guy online. Go on Benjy

[@pepperwestwood]

Realest realist

[@MarzipanCat.]

But also stay there

[@findmads]

Magnus handled this poorly…. I couldn’t agree more. He should have brought some evidence or said he overreacted… which people would have thought was understandable since Hans cheated in the past….

[@youtubecensoringcomments7427]

Absolutely. He can't backtrack his bad assessment but people support magnus decision because he is World champion

[@findmads]

@@santiagomorales9129 so far he is accusing someone without evidence …. Until he shows some, he has handled this poorly.

[@FrenkieWest32]

to you peoople, ''some evidence'' seems limited to a video of Hans having stockfish on his phone during the match or something. This is obviously not how cheating is fought

[@OEx25]

Update: Yes

[@francescgonyalons9936]

What is your explanation for Hans' poor analysis after Alireza game?

[@claudioa.dmedina2020]

again @GMBenjaminFinegold, a big thank you for being the rational voice in the Hans - Magnus story. You are now proof that chess players have the potential of being intelligent :)

[@sirmad2222]

Stai zitto

[@Reptex_cs]

..and proof they're not all drowning in confirmation bias. Nice to see.

[@sirmad2222]

@@Reptex_cs ??????

[@Jartran72]

A lot of them are intelligent. But most did develop chess skills over rational reasoning and therefor don't seem as intelligent as they should be

[@Reptex_cs]

@@Jartran72 learning chess doesnt require rational reasoning. A memory is all you need.

[@FlashNorton]

Thought experiment: if Magnus accused Hikaru, how would all this look? Hans was hated before…

[@Charmlie.R]

If hans hadnt done things to be thought poorly of, he most likely wouldn't have been thought poorly. Similar to hikaru. If hikaru had a history of cheating, people would be more likely to think poorly of him. The analogy kinda doesn't work unfortunately.. At the surface level, no actions included, it would probably come a lot more down to personal preference or existing evidence, and that wouldn't influence their decision as much yaknow

[@chauncyquest2779]

Hot Take: Hans and magnus were secretly dating, and Hans cheated on him with a stockbroker who specialized in fish/fishing industry.

[@justinium5965]

love how unbiased he is!! finally a refreshing take on this scandal! subbed!!

[@lucaslorenz8580]

Ben's perspective is what's needed right now, and his point about Hikaru is particularly apt.

[@robertm3561]

I’d say it is likely, that Niemann cheated against Carlsen & many other times, but definitely not sure about it! Just the “overall” scrutiny with a Lot of red flags makes me think, that it is even highly likely, that he cheated. I hope the truth comes out at some point in time. If he’s innocent, this all sucks for all, coz for ex. he would never be completely vindicated, coz almost impossible to Prove the negative

[@DZeuf]

Same here!

[@Reptex_cs]

@@robertm3561 if you went allin for it and decided to find clues to Magnus cheating, you would find a ton. This is what the average chessplayer don't understand. It's called confirmation bias, and this scandal is drowning in it.

[@aaronmarchand999]

What are you talking about, he's completely biased, Hans is the God of Chess and he treats him as though he's just an ordinary mortal

[@mikecantreed]

Fully agree with Ben. The FM Yoshi analysis fell apart immediately. Who would’ve thought when she started the “most damning evidence against Hans” video with “oh I just found out about this let’s check feature” was going to be inaccurate. Yea that video isn’t going to be riddled with errors.

[@kosinarm]

Players are complaining of an awful stink when Hans comes back from long bathroom “thinks.” He won’t be invited to many tournaments in the future.

[@queequeg00]

Ahh yes. Post the same content in different lengths to trick people into thinking you have more to say on the subject, Ben. I promise it will work.

[@kiwione12]

Come on mate, everyone is milking the drama for content, let Ben get his as well

[@La_sagne]

could this be considered cheating on youtube?

[@edgytarian3332]

It unironically has been working

[@jaasonjones4419]

Frankly, terrible

[@VeggieRice]

guess you're new to the channel. it's common for his editor to upload a 1-3+ hour VOD then clip it out, he always has. I guess you're thirsty for drama so it *you clicked* anyway meh

[@jahonten5]

“I don’t mind eating by myself” it fucking shows

[@eraticus]

I'm embarrassed to admit I don't play chess. But I LOVE your channel.

[@GenuineRage]

Ben, you consistently succeed in providing level headed and multifaceted opinions that I respect. Thank you for the upload.

[@MrOffTrail]

Ben has the most spot-on, well-reasoned take on the whole situation here. Also, I’ve lost a lot of respect for Magnus on how he handled this, and Hikaru for his click-bait dogpiling on to make a quick buck at the expense of further damaging a young man’s reputation. At this point, even if Hans was cheating, they wouldn’t be vindicated, because they threw around allegations without the slightest shred of evidence, and that would just be a lucky break for them…like if vaccines turned out to have something harmful in them, that wouldn’t make anti-vaxxers who make stuff up “right”.

[@WrathDmnBand]

Personally I’m fine with Hans screwing over his own career by cheating and associating himself with a known cheater. The kid really needs to learn some humility. He throws tantrums on stream and throws his mouse, smashes his keyboard, screams like a stuck pig both when he wins and loses. Not saying it makes him a cheater I’ll just be happy to see a lot less of him once this is over

[@richardpawl1664]

Set up a room as a faraday cage and subject each player to an emp before entry to the room and players can't leave until their game or games are complete. Probably the only way to prevent cheating outside of non-electronic mechanisms.

[@tomswiftyphilo2504]

then there'd have to be a bucket in the corner and they'd be accused of colluding with the piss boy.

[@grumpytroll6918]

Tin foil hats for the audience are cheaper

[@JunkBondTrader]

They should, and he would lose.

[@Jack-dv6oi]

How could non electronic mechanisms be used for cheating? I can't think of any way

[@JohnS-il1dr]

@maxb krab tell us. There would be no way to convey the moves without electronic devices. Morse code from an audience member by blinking their eyelids or hand signals is nigh near impossible with many witnesses milling about the hall at Sinqfield club.

[@JH-en6ql]

Hans is so popular now (thanks to Magnus) - people will tune in just to see him play. As such, he’ll continue to get invited to tourneys. It’s interesting - before Magnus’s accusations, I didn’t even know who Hans was. Now, Hans is getting so much attention.

[@profd65]

Popular? Is that what you call it? Is English your native language?

[@enchomishinev35]

People don't dedicate their lives to chess because of fame, not everyone is Hikaru. These accusations are clearly a very damaging thing for Hans.

[@jumpimcjump7888]

Hans's won't be invited to any tournaments magnus will play because otherwise magnus would probably just boycott them

[@anosmianAcrimony]

@@jumpimcjump7888 At that point I wonder if the organisers will invite Hans *rather than* Magnus. Who knows when this is going to happen again? Is he going to flip out and withdraw from the tournament and start alleging things the next time a slightly sketchy weaker player beats him with black? Seems like a liability to me.

[@Bobo-Vieri]

Hans' career is over.

[@robocopvn]

an old wiseman speak the truth! Respect. People tend to think it's black or white, but the fact is between black and white are millions of grey colors.

[@hexstone6009]

Hikaru did more to condemn Hans than Magnus did. Magnus made a statement, Hikaru made it a career.

[@Nietzschebot1]

Now Ben is making it a career too apparently, throwing out opinions and statistics with no evidence of his own. I trust Hikaru and Fabio and Nepo, who are all very measured in comparison to this blowhard approach.

[@2FadeMusic]

@@Nietzschebot1 how has hikaru been measured about this LOL

[@ghostlyphantasm2352]

@@2FadeMusic He's just angry cause he wants ben to accuse Hans of cheating. As there is no reason whatsoever wrong for Ben to say until there is evidence no certainty can be determined, where the comment above he just calls him a blowhard cause he doesn't 'believe' without evidence.

[@hexstone6009]

@@Nietzschebot1 Trust isn't the issue. Accusing another GM of cheating over the board without proof is. Hikaru is guilty, more than Magnus, and FIDE needs to act accordingly.

[@Nietzschebot1]

@@2FadeMusic He hasn't called Hans a liitle "b=tch, for instance. He may have his opinions, but he uses the appropriate if-then statements. Talking bad about Hikaru is cool because he's popular, but at least he's relevant.

[@PersonVoid]

Hans beat Magnus in 2 moves... The guy is a chess god

[@xijinvegg]

Did you mean cheater

[@therocker3024]

Magnus Beated Hans in 2 moves. He crushed his entire career. At MAX Hans' career will be over in a month, dead and buried.

[@johnnyboy5073]

@@therocker3024 I argue his career is better then ever if they don't prove he cheated he will sky rocket literally everyone talking about it even ppl who don't play chess that's only good nothing bad about it but ppl have opinions when if they're wrong

[@Lunyore]

@@johnnyboy5073 I got some news for you bud. It’s been confirmed that he cheated over 100 times.

[@PersonVoid]

@@Lunyore lol, youre really funny saying something so absurdly ridiculous. By whom has it been confirmed that he cheated over a 100 times? 😂

[@tonystefanuk2149]

whoever does the thumbnails for this channel is a genius lol

[@gregoriolobato3033]

I think that every time I see a thumbnail from Finegold

[@fbruvik]

The beads speak for themselves.

[@scythermantis]

Honestly pretty measured take and I would go even further and say without reasonable physical evidence or at least a mechanism or accomplice IRL cheating suspicions are pretty meaningless.

[@JunkBondTrader]

there is tons of daming evidence. I don't know how the 100% correlated games aren't well beyond reasonable doubt

[@scythermantis]

@@JunkBondTrader They aren't "100% correlated games" as you're not even interpreting them properly and you don't even know what that means. Furthermore EVEN IF THEY ARE (whatever that means) guess what? Chessbase themselves, where the data comes from, says that Engine Correlation is NOT to be used to prove cheating since it is not useful for that purpose.

[@bleepfakes]

I agree 100% with Ben. I also love how he says those pesky streaming personalities are making money out of this controversy. Yet here I am on his video, and commenting no less. Hehe.. Ben you win :)

[@christopherneedham9584]

I agree with most things. I despise his opinion that cheating online doesn't matter. Or that somehow cheating OTB is worse. Imho if you cheated once, OTB or online, after you are an adult. You deserve a lifetime ban from competition.

[@patrickrobertshaw7020]

@@christopherneedham9584 Are you seriously unable to see how cheating OTB and Online are different? Cheating online can be as simple as a streamer having chat saying moves. Cheating at an event with security? That requires serious planning and premeditation, and a whole conspiracy to defraud everyone. Cheating when it's difficult to cheat is just intuitively worse. We even have different levels of murder based on a crime of passion versus something that was planned and premeditated.

[@nicky2coats]

@@christopherneedham9584 You deserve a lifetime ban from commenting on KZbin.

[@akorthouwer]

@@christopherneedham9584 so Hans should still get an opportunity then cuz there is no evidence he cheated as an adult

[@christopherneedham9584]

@@akorthouwer I'm wasn't saying he should or shouldn't get a second chance. That wasn't the point, or even having anything to do with my comment. However, that being said, I very specifically said "adult" because I think if Hans did last cheat when he was 16, it shouldn't be held against him.

[@meleecritical]

Hell no. He’s a youngster. World will demand compliance. Let that process happen naturally and hope he figures it out before some devistating reckoning. He’s talented and it ought cultivate.

[@kodiak_fgc6736]

Re: Hans disappearing after October 15 and the next six months. The possibility of this happening is exactly why Magnus put out such a weak statement. Everything Magnus said was a matter of opinion and supposition, but if Magnus had said "Hans cheated in x game" then it becomes a question of objective, verifiable facts. If Magnus takes a shot and misses, he could end up legally and financially responsible for the damage to hans's reputation, including hans's lost income for potentially decades

[@reincarnatedleaf1926]

Suspicion of cheating is valid and is a good way to start investigation. It also promotes better security measures and if you don't have nothing to hide, it's no problem. Magnus was right and is courageous to withdrawn thousands of dollar to make a statement in the chess community.

[@JohnS-il1dr]

@@reincarnatedleaf1926 well he proceeded to suspect cheating in the wrong way. It's like those nutballs who claim the election was rigged in 2020 and claim that it brought a spotlight on election fraud. All it did was create division among opposite parties and now chess fans and pros alike with this Hans nonsense

[@clivehallam5339]

Cheating in real life and cheating online is different says man online..

[@reecewood1918]

I think your mostly right here Ben, but I think this drama might actually be good for hans's career. He has drawn a lot of eye balls and a lot of support for it. Controversy is always profitable

[@dco1019]

In the long run it won't be profitable unless these people that 'support' hans are going to do this personally..giving donations on twitch or something after the hype disappears. As far as sponsorships, tourney invites, big price money he is thoroughly f'd up I would say..chssdtcm banned him, ch24 are magnus his boys. Lichhess has no money.(edit: online chess is iffy in any case since hes been cheating there unequivocally, no fair player wants hans in his/her tourney) Otb tourneys have sponsors and directors who are usually not into all this drama. So what's hans gonna do? Play valorant on twitch?

[@reecewood1918]

@@dco1019 time will tell, but if it ruins his career I won't feel bad for him. If he wanted to be a pro chess player he shouldn't have cheated at all. I'd say it ruined his reputation, but he litterally has no other reputation. If he can't play chess profesionally he can become a welder or a carpenter like the rest of us. Pro athletes are held to a higher standard

[@reecewood1918]

Or he can write a book about how he got kicked out of chess, there are so many Hans fan boys right now he could probably make a nyt best seller

[@SomethingLegit1]

If Hans is incapable of defeating Magnus without being accused of cheating, what use is it for him to play him anyway? What use is it for any player below 2,800 to play Magnus? This sets a very dangerous precedent.

[@JunkBondTrader]

its not that he won, it's how he won.

[@shobhitbansal1504]

Some players have beaten magnus. None have been accused of cheating. Hans is a well recognised cheater and persistent liar.

[@FrenkieWest32]

this is a proposterous analysis. Magnus has been beaten dozens of times by lower rated players and never been accused...

[@kiraPh1234k]

Exactly, based on rating Hans should win somewhere in the range of 25% of games against Magnus. Also funny that people accuse Hans of cheating with no evidence, but Magnus who clearly broke the rule about losing on purpose which is directly cheating is entirely ignored.

[@shobhitbansal1504]

@@kiraPh1234k : you really don't know anything about probability. Do you?

[@tweetysour5460]

They should add Security measures and let Hans Play .

[@metalichasan]

If he were my lecturer, I wouldn't have ever missed a class.

[@philipstevenson5166]

those who want to can always refuse to play against carlsen if they feel so strongly about it; looking forward to a world of mass posturing defaults

[@thomasgilson6206]

I agree with that. We just need a few GMs brave and principled enough to give Magnus a taste of his own medicine. But they won't, because they need the money.

[@helgedragseth4599]

Many og them agree with the idea that Niemann is a notoriouse cheater. And all of the top players has been aware of Niemann before this happend in S.cup.

[@israeladeola6398]

@@thomasgilson6206 you want them to take a stand for a serial cheater? Are you dumb? Supporting Hans must have taken a toll on your thinking 😂

[@Biocontaminator]

To my mind, defending a cheater who has cheated in rated games (by admission to gain rating points and notoriety) and in prize pool tournaments in an attempt to steal money from other players playing honestly is deplorable. “having a higher rating would mean people tune in more to my streams when I’m battling Hikaru, Danya or Eric (Hansen). I need people to believe that I’m a worthy rival to follow and subscribe”. Demonstrably false quotations from Hans: "They didn't want to ban me publicly, because then they'd have to give a reason. And they think they can scare me, because they think that I'm not going to talk about it, because I'm afraid to admit this. But this is an online - I did this when I was 12 years old. And then, when I, and then the second, the other time I think, it was not even an over the board tournament, not even in a prize money, online tournament, it was in absolutely random games." "This is the full truth, and I'd like to see if everyone else can actually tell their truth."

[@emilschulz9888]

As always Monsieur Finegold is on point

[@spanielmander]

I would definitely like a more comprehensive rebuttal to the multiple 100% games by Hans than “it didn’t happen.” That’s quite weak.

[@larrynail9677]

Magnus didnt hurt Hans, Hans hurt Hans by being dispicable. Cheaters and liars are inextricably joined.

[@fedes9626]

If a lot of people are cheating online it does not make it ok, also, cheating on a money tournament online should be a ban from fide.

[@mbealhighjump]

The Chess community should hold itself to a higher standard instead of being so dismissive about online cheating. Especially since online cheating has a psychological impact on & creates an unfair advantage against OTB opponents. I understand how much harder it is to regulate such things, at the lower levels, but GMs are meant to be the highest pillars of excellence and should be held to the highest of standards. Professional sports commonly suspend players for displays of bad character. It’s a bit bothersome how consistently Ben has downplayed the negative impact of online cheating throughout this entire saga.

[@puncifikator3870]

9:54 this is misinfo. Magnus considered not attending the entire game when realizing that Hans was invited (confirmed by himself and other GMs) but ultimately decided to play. so fyi magnus thought/knew that Hans would cheat from before they had the game

[@markdierker4292]

I think the take that Magnus is just a "sore looser" is a little simplistic. It's quite plausible that he had been sitting on information and this simply prompted him to act on it, that's generally how it works.

[@kiraPh1234k]

@@markdierker4292 I don't think it's too simplistic. One of Magnus' reactions was to resign a game against Hans as it started, which itself is directly defined as cheating per FIDE laws. A player cannot lose on purpose, it is match fixing. A player is also not allowed to use the court of public opinion to attack or make claims about another player.

[@jameywc2]

Magnus didn't lose he got f.ckin stomped!

[@TheMartinontario]

1. Online chess IS real life. If you win a tournament, they will give you REAL, ACTUAL MONEY. So don't dismiss online behavior as "not being real life". 2. You're giving Magnus too much credit. My guess is many tournaments will grant Niemann admission because he's become tremendously famous and people is curious. 3. The fact many GMs cheat online does NOT make online cheating OK. Quite the contrary.

[@jacksondickery509]

Grade A irony. Ben is the same guy who fails to listen to Poker experts when discussing cheating in poker .

[@zorglub667]

Here's what he did in real life though, just the proven, non speculative stuff : 1. He profited from a psychological advantage of his opponents being insecure whether they are playing an engine 2. He blatantly lied to the entire chess community with a straight face about the amount of his cheating. He lied about the amount, about the nature, he lied about not doing it in rating relevant games, he lied about not doing it in prize tournaments. You may think that's all irrelevant because that's the hill you chose to die on, but i as a chess fan did not choose a hill beforehand and can now say, I don't want to see a person with that kind of track record in any pro chess event ever. Don't even care anymore whether there was OTB cheating on top of all this mess. The psychological advantage and the lying is more than enough and it's absolutely beyond me how people look at that kind of behavior and think they need to downplay or even defend it. It's a guy who's been +2400 ELO for quite a while now. He certainly has enough brain cells to be aware about how wrong his actions are. He ripped people of prizes and skill recognition. May be nothing to some grown uos with their finances in order, but even a small money prize can mean a lot to some kids. But no, thats all irrelevant, people should stop caring about such details because reasons, and that's the rational position? Uh huh.

[@ukaszadamczewski6186]

Ben speaks for himself

[@TheMartinontario]

1. As a human being, you don't switch from dishonest to honest just because you're not online. 2. Clearly, we will never be certain about St. Louis. 3. The decision here is: Should chess organizations continue to include top players with proven online cheating behavior? My take is NO, THEY SHOULD NOT. As a chess fan, I will surely lose any interest in chess events if I know potential cheaters are allowed. As a chess fan, I DON'T CARE about legal proof. If I see a prominent cheater like Niemann in an event, I would switch to any other content.

[@kiraPh1234k]

I expect you'd also turn it off if Magnus came on then? Considering Magnus directly cheated against Hans when he resigned after two moves, which is "match fixing"/"result manipulation", both of which are directly called out as cheating in FIDE laws.

[@DudeTastic13]

I'm not trolling ... someone please tell me ... how can someone cheat OTB? They said he had a bead where the sun don't shine ... but how does IT read the board and know the placement of pieces to provide a move? Like buzz 4x for a Knight, and 6x for F, and 3x for 3 (Knight F3)? Does the cheater have a invisible contact in his eye that is computer like, and it connects to the bead? I'm with Mr. Finegold here. Where is the HARD evidence FOR the game in question??? OR do we need to wait for Chesscom to give the answer this week???

[@defiant_]

the bead would receive signals from aliens who watch the game live and then vibrate the best moves (or some other information, maybe not every move)

[@michaelemerson1949]

It doesn't. People talking ish. Someone could have ear bud with someone filling in moves

[@mschosting]

How did he cheat? Before the game started Hans as hidden an Informator on the WC and while Magnus was thinking sometimes he would go to the WC and consult it, as easy as it gets to cheat OTB

[@DekarNL]

You bring a cell phone and use the engine. You have a spotter who signals you the moves. You consult books with opening theory. I can go on.

[@DudeTastic13]

They also don't broadcast the game live ... they're on a 30 m delay. So nobody can buzz in a move for anyone. They also did the basic body scan (they did more after Magnus quitting) upon entry. Maybe some are right. There's an alien satellite that sees the board from thousands of miles away and somehow relay the moves to Hans or whoever. Joking aside, nope, still no hard evidence. No smoking gun. Did Hans really used the bathroom for long periods of time? Or did he even use the bathroom at all during his game? Or like Ben says, Magnus is just angry because he lost this game and felt Hans shouldn't have been here playing based on his history??? In this case it means Hans didn't cheat THIS game.

[@rickrick5041]

I’m glad GM Finegold straightened out the Hans situation once and for all

[@AndrewNajash]

Let’s say the investigation shows, beyond all doubt, that Hans didn’t cheat and Magnus himself can’t provide any evidence that he did, what repercussions would Magnus face?

[@leftunity8627]

None lol and that would be assuming we could ever prove he DIDNT cheat which is impossible

[@mschosting]

Probably a slap on the wrist.

[@crbrearley]

Fide will make a not-so-scathing statement against Magnus. Honestly, I just don't see how either player can be punished. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that proves computer cheating (although there may be new and more thorough analysis done). And how do you punish Magnus for failing to trust another professional because he has cheated in the past?

[@dansmart3182]

Magnus is losing nothing in the situation. Because he is magnus.

[@KemosabeTBC]

I think it's impossible to prove beyond all doubt that he didn't cheat. Proving that he cheated (if he did) beyond all doubt is easier if you catch him in the act, but how do you prove he didn't cheat?

[@johnward5404]

But that's a misconception I think, saying that "He is a bad cheater, he LOST." Well I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be "GOOD CHEATING" if he just wiped everyone off the face of the earth with a cheat engine. You can't cheat 100 percent or even a high percent of the time.

[@keysersoze9651]

Plays a 100% game , ends in draw. Played better than Bobby Fischer in the tournament end at 13th place. You believe this nonsense?

[@Bahomar]

appreciate your take on it, thanks for the upload

[@johnrichardson7629]

The Magnus game isn't even a relevant issue. Hans is a serial cheater. Magnus didn't end Hans's career. Hans did it to himself.

[@legueu]

What we care about is Ben drama. Like that time when he said a thing and somebody didn't like. Or when it was the other way around.

[@GraemeCree]

The only one of the two that we know for sure has cheated is Magnus. Throwing the game to Niemann at the Baer Cup was totally illegal and he did it in a way that left no deniability about whether he was trying to lose. FIDE rules explicitly describe result manipulation as cheating. The only defense to this is that he threw the game as part of a protest, but if he did, it was an illegal protest. The Ethics Rules are clear on that too. "All protests must be referred directly to the arbiter or the Technical Director of the tournament." You aren't allowed to go over their heads and try to settle your dispute in the court of public opinion. That's exactly what Topalov was reprimanded for. If it should turn out that Niemann cheated too, that would be worse than what Carlsen did, but it wouldn't get Carlsen off the hook.

[@rocaluma]

Totally agree with you. It's virtually impossible to cheat in a masters tournament. Magnus should get off the big horse and move on.

[@pamsuepmnos2371]

Kamaru Usman, (now) former UFC welterweight champion and #1 in the P4P rankings recently lost his championship to someone who was a 3:1 underdog. Afterwards he gave credit to his opponent and expressed anticipation to compete again.

[@snuggleseal]

Yes but Hans was ranked 50th. That's like Usman losing to an amateur.

[@snuggleseal]

@@diomedes7971 yes it is. A welterweight ranked 50th wouldn't even be in the UFC.

[@RicardoTakeda]

Online or real life are not separate things. It proves what he really ia as a person.

[@paulr3934]

There's a lot going on in this controversy but I think this video has convinced me: It's certain he cheated online, it's likely he cheated more online than he admitted, it's unlikley that any of these statistical analysis are telling the whole story, and on the balance of probabilities, It's unlikely that hans cheated OTB vs Magnus to win with black - though he may well have cheated OTB at other points. The real take home is this is ruining a young man's life virtually entirely on the hunch of Magnus (a hunch most top GMs don't even agree with). The fact that cheating online is so prolifict (even among players who go on to be professional) is the part of the puzzle that I think cements this as having gone too far.

[@jonathanshaashoua5836]

For me, i don't think about it like you. Imagine it like this: there is a player you think has cheated more than once in the last 2 years, maybe even otb. Now, 5 days before you play an elite tournament he is anounced to be participating. You want to drop from the tournament but decide to play, as you already committed and it is a very prestigious event. When you play him in the 3rd round, you don't play to your level , as happens when you think you are playing an engine. He beats you. What are your options? Shut up and repress your anger and sens of unjustice, or stop everything and put it all on the table. Magnus made his choice and i think i would have done the same in his position. I do agree he could handled things better by giving more clarification earlier, but still i think he made a brave choice and brought a serious and complex discussion to the air

[@mschosting]

Serious and complex do you mean Nakamura twitch channel? The 100% accuracy guys or the latest trend bad centipawn loses by Hans? Everything thing is so silly 🤣

[@dechain1927]

but magnus chose to play with him in major tournaments just a few days before the sinquefield cup. its just all of a sudden he decides its a problem

[@brendanbrown3100]

At tournaments there are these people called arbiters. You go to them if you have a problem. Not twitter.

[@jonathanshaashoua5836]

@@mschosting i am not talking about the hans magnus discussion, which is more yellow than cheese. I am talking about the discussion of cheating in chess and how do prevrnt it from ruining the game

[@jonathanshaashoua5836]

@@brendanbrown3100 we heard from fabiano that magnus's and ian's concerns were not taken seriously by the organizers, and the security update was only put in place after magnus withdrew

[@kiraPh1234k]

Finegold with them rational thoughts. Helping keep the Interweebs sane, and I thank you for it.

[@PHeMoX]

Not to be annoying, but why believe Ben over people like Fabiano, Magnus, Hikaru, Naroditsky and plenty more again? And no, Hikaru didn't argue Hans must have been cheating. He merely said he didn't consider some moves natural to play.

[@nicky2coats]

Because people with brains can actually weigh arguments rather than base their opinion solely on the perceived credibility of the speaker.

[@danielfladmose]

Ben must show some data to be taken seriously.

[@omargodinez7256]

because those people you mentioned are amazing chess players but they are just a bunch of ignorant goofs at basically everything else unfortunately.

[@KemosabeTBC]

Of all those people the only one I ever saw accusing has of cheating was Magnus. Fabi said some moves were suspicious but that was about it.

[@rxw5520]

This idea that using an engine to win online is a lesser crime than otb is outdated. Using an engine online and using an engine otb are philosophically the same. The only difference is it’s harder to do otb. But it’s the same game, same money often involved. The principle and the competitive nature are the same. The punishment should be the same, and soon it will be.

[@ceciltucker7291]

Amen

[@Crustle1]

It's the same sort of thing as digging out someone's offensive tweet from 10 years ago and never forgiving them for it...until we get some concrete evidence I say go Hans!

[@DeuceGenius]

until we get some evidence i say the world chess champion knows better than i do if another guy is cheating

[@keysersoze9651]

@@DeuceGenius Average Magnus fanboi

[@sharklite3316]

@@keysersoze9651 salty cheater cant get away with it

[@keysersoze9651]

@@sharklite3316 Hans most probably cheated in OTB but Magnus sure acted like a crybaby

[@hulkingmass]

@@keysersoze9651 out of all the takes on this I think this one makes the least sense out of all I've seen. You think he probably cheated otb but also think the guy who brought it to light is a crybaby. Impressive

[@Thesamurai1999]

If you cheat, you're a cheater and shouldn't be allowed play in tournaments.

[@hmdchy]

Ben is talking about Hans everyday now! 😮

[@panikk2]

"what'd you do when you were 19? You pled the fifth that's what you did"

[@mohdyassir4375]

He should sue Magnus/Hikatu for defamation and strictly in regards to accusation of cheating in Singfield Cup.

[@terryboland3816]

So why hasn't he?

[@cooloutac]

@@terryboland3816 it costs a lot of money to to hire a competent lawyer that's why it's naive to think Magnus fears any sort of lawsuit from him. Hans has to hope some good lawyer wants to make a name for himself off magnus and Hikaru.

[@skibbles827]

I don't think you can sue Hikaru for expressing an opinion

[@cooloutac]

@@skibbles827 you can sue people for opinions I don't know why that rumor is spreading around, but of course it all depends on the circumstances. But you're right it would be shaky trying to sue him. but not impossible.

[@terryboland3816]

@@skibbles827 Depends on the jurisdiction.

[@StoshGalumpke]

There is also growing evidence many podcasters are harvesting a sudden windfall of Big Chess Drama clicks ...

[@Agirmetal]

Why defend this career cheater? Magnus didn't frame him because he lost but he can see he cheated . You may not be smart enough to figure out the cheating yourself but at least be smart enough to comprehend that Magnus will do it . You are a GM and should know better yet talk like an average Joe on the street

[@Trollpapa-s8e]

Typical reaction. A Jew protects his own kind under all circumstances

[@imacarrot6570]

So Han's moves did not match chess base's comparisons with 3 engines? there was no 100% correlations between his moves & engine moves? That is what you were saying? It does not take any knowledge of chess to match human moves with an engine's moves.

[@citamcicak]

We all know that if Hans us cheating over the board, it is with a supercomputer hidden in a lipstick.

[@theemptyatom]

Not sure what your ax to grind with Naka is, but he has not said that.

[@daytonagreg8765]

Bens reputation took a dive along side Hans…. On purpose it seems. I used to love this guy.

[@NidusFormicarum]

You don't have the same respect when playing people online as when facing them in real life. It feels like you're playing (bad) computers rather than human beings because you don't your opponent in front of you. You don't have the same respect when sms:ing people as when talking to them face to face, because the former feels a bit like writing to robots or rather like talking to yourself. You are the only one with feelings as far as you are concerned.

[@greatestever6952]

BEN IS THE BEST, THIS MAN IS COMEDY, THE STUFF HE SAYS MAKE ME LAUGH AND ITS ALMOST EVERY VIDEO. GREAT CONTENT , 5 STARS 🌟 WE LOVE YOU BEN 🍻 CHEERS

[@blogintonblakley2708]

Cheating is cheating. Not sure why it would make a difference if it was OTB or online.

[@Neil-yg5gm]

I looked up his blitz progress on the FIDE website. His rating went from 2278 in November 2019 to 2632 in October 2022. How can you cheat in blitz?

[@ovoj5631]

It's possible

[@justinbabes7561]

@@ovoj5631 There's a video of someone cheating against Aman chessbrah in bullet (He strongly suspected it after a few hours of bullet games, and the account was suspended for fair play shortly after the stream)

[@ovoj5631]

@@justinbabes7561 yeah engines are very fast, especially if you're strong enough to only need to look at them for a few critical moments, then it becomes extremely possible to cheat in blitz or bullet

[@user-ro9md9wp3j]

@@justinbabes7561 I think he's asking how can you cheat in blitz OTB?

[@abbynguyen5923]

@@user-ro9md9wp3j No way realistically.

[@PhoenixTTD]

If you damage your reputation, there are consequences. If what is happening to Hans is unfair, then maybe he shouldn't have been unfair.

[@baxtermaxtor]

0:03 those asymmetrical shoulder shrugs

[@Relbl]

Excusing a guy for cheating in money events online shows that your opinion on this topic is rubbish. Also in pointing out the 0/9 performance you take the exact wrong line -- what other 2700 player would ever conceive of going 0/9 in any tournament? It just proves he's not at all that calibre of player....

[@roberttitan4497]

Oh Ben, there are three kinds of people in this world. Those who can count and those who can't.

[@DanielHuman1996]

If it is proven that Hans cheated at a specific tournament that tournament could ban him. However, Hans should be allowed to compete in other tournaments. He is still a very good player. Now he is infamous, and tournaments need a good heel. It makes the game more entertaining!

[@Thanosdidtherighthing]

Read the new Wall Street Journal article.

[@JunkBondTrader]

have you not seen the recent news? he's good, because he cheats.

[@FrenkieWest32]

That is absolutely the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. This would mean someone could cheat in every tournament they play in, get caught everytime, and still be invited over and over to new events?

[@DanielHuman1996]

@@FrenkieWest32 Yes, the tournaments can police themselves. We don't need a group of Chess nazis policing all of the tournaments and requiring fees from players. An anti-cheating, anti-doping society will just add unnecessary fees for players. Chess doesn't need the equivalent of USADA to ban people from competition.