Should I LOWER Flaps in a Turn?

Possibly the most debated topic in aviation! Should I lower flaps while turning base to final? In this video, I explain why you should be using flaps while turning. Even if you don't agree with my conclusion, you are definitely going to learn something from this video! Enjoy learning more about aviation.
Huge thank you to Rod Machado (@Flight-Instructor) for the work on this article:
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[@user-pn6mv4wy7w]

I have 18,000+ hours and am currently a captain on a 737, we use flaps in turns all the time. It’s an amazing tool for energy, speed and path management.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you! Love getting comments from experts on the subject

[@desertshooter007]

Based flaps during turns enjoyer

[@mikeabc5355]

My private pilot instructor was a retired Airforce colonel with a civilian ATP rating. He taught me to use flaps 10 degrees at the end of the runway on downwind, additional 10 degrees on the turn to base, and an additional 10 on the turn to final, over the years I have never experienced a single negative event from using flaps and I never approached a stall in turns.

[@FreePilotTraining]

That is exactly what I teach

[@mikeabc5355]

@@FreePilotTraining And you are 100% correct, from 70s to today that technic worked for me.

[@shopart1488]

To make this all work out as it should you complemented the flaps with the proper airspeed.

[@mikeabc5355]

@@sncy5303 I can't see any logical pilot arguing against using flaps in turns.

[@Arturo-lapaz]

@@shopart1488 exactly right Same indicated airspeeds no matter what the density altitude is.

[@Kevlux86]

1 / Sin (45°) = 1.41, 1 / Sin (30°) = 2.0. As an electrician, we use these every time we bend an offset in conduit, was cool to see it pop up in flight training too 🤓

[@FreePilotTraining]

😂 🤯😂

[@michaeljohn8905]

Is there a good video to learn it ? Im doing bend radias in my A&P course .

[@Kevlux86]

@@michaeljohn8905 tons. Search for “conduit bending” and you’ll find lots. Also might look up the same for pipe fitters. The math will be the same for what you’re doing, you just need to find the video that explains it best for you. Good luck!

[@ajkbaritone]

It’s the secant, or 1/cos for load factor. Sec 60 = 1/cos 60 = 2. Of course the sine and cosine of 45 are the same for an isosceles right triangle.

[@John-nc4bl]

Without split, (assymetric) flap protection as in most light aircraft designs, flaps should not be deployed in a turn. Take for example, a Cessna which has cable operated flaps. There are 4 separate flap cables to pull the flaps up and down. Two cables pull the flaps down and two cables pull the flaps up. If one cable breaks due to corrosion which is possible, the flap operated by that cable will not be pulled down, say to a 40 position in an older Cessna. The opposite side flap will be pulled down to its 40 position. Trying to keep the aircraft flyable during final approach to the runway with ailerons and rudder will be very difficult, probably impossible depending on airspeed.

[@michaeljohn8905]

Just want to say thank you for all the videos that you are making for us the general public. I work as an apprentice A&P and I’m a student pilot . Quick back story , I’ve been trying to do this since I was 15 years old when I started flying. Life and the fact that Flying is so dang expensive ! I’m now 49 years old on tue verge of getting my PPL and Airframe and Power plant Certifications. 🎉 I say this to say if it where not for you , your time and I just wanted to say thank you for all the time and your effort . I would not be doing this with ought you and others that do this for the GA world. You Lady’s & Gents are un sung heroes of GA . Thank you 🙏🏻 Michael John . KLZU.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much Michael John! That means a lot! Good luck on that PPL! It’s worth the work!

[@smflyboy]

You are funny! I'm a student pilot and I lower the flaps in a turn to either base or final almost every single time. But I have to admit that a small voice sometimes asks "should I be doing this now?" Glad you cleared it up for me and gave me more confidence,thx!

[@FreePilotTraining]

😆 you’re welcome!

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

I learned that in early 1990's. If overshooting alignment on GRM or base to final, you pop more flaps while banking up to 45 degree, then after level, bring them up if getting to slow or low. Crop Dusters do that every day on their GRM Alignments.

[@OrionWebster]

I always drop my flaps during a turn onto base (20°) and final (30°). But it really depends on my airspeed and how the aircraft feels to me.

[@mikecoffee100]

this video isn't a drag .

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks! And I love the pun! 😆

[@colourwheel20]

It lifted my spirits!

[@TurningFinalOfficial]

We always use flaps in the pattern in the Cherokee 140. First notch downwind abeam the numbers, second notch on base, third notch on final. Same approach every time. Love the videos brother, keep ‘em coming!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks! The 140 is such an awesome aircraft. Thanks for the comment!

[@SoloRenegade]

that's how most pilots are taught it

[@PRH123]

Had same training on 152 and 172... totally standard I believe....

[@worldtraveler7806]

yeah in france we also use second notch on base turn, flying in a PS28 Cruiser

[@xrey83]

I thought the issue was whether or not to pull flaps down during the turns.

[@dandrewmd11]

Very good explanation of an "old wives tale" about flaps in a turn. I have flown heavy jets to small aircraft and honestly never heard anyone tell me not to use flaps in a turn. I fly a Bonanza now and we just had an AD required in the last two years due to the right aileron cable having corrosion on a turn buckle due to moisture from a heater duct. There were at least two inflight problems and several hundred discoveries on the ground. With the rudder aileron interconnect, when one of the turnbuckles broke inflight the pilot, using all of his experience and brains, determined that if he maintained 130 knots indicated AND making only a continuous left hand turn, was able to advise ATC, find a LONG runway and approached it in a turn and got it safely on the ground. The right aileron was deflected up and he had to use almost full left aileron to maintain control. There is an interview with him on KZbin somewhere. Very scary and well handled. There have been others that failed upon inspection but thankfully on the ground. Mine had the beginnings of corrosion when I checked it. The Bonanza wing is such a great flying wing I tend to not use flaps on long runways but not due to concerns of split flaps but just do it that way...why? Had a student in his Bonanza that his flaps stuck down full and I had to tell him how to "repair" them so he could get home. Your demo of turn radius makes a lot of sense. Thanks

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks! That is really interesting! I’ll have to look that up

[@danielmahecha6779]

Love your sense of humor, it actually helps me learn MUCH MUCH better the way in which you present things and make it fun as well. Keep it going man you’re awesome 😎

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much! I really appreciate the comment! I got one the other day telling me how immature I am. I’ll continue with the humor, cuz I think it really helps retain information. I think that guy was just a sour puss

[@danielmahecha6779]

@@FreePilotTraining hey forget those haters, if you’re so immature..why are they watching then..most of us who watch are here to continue expanding our knowledge with you and what you offer; the others meh forget them. Cheers from Chicago

[@FreePilotTraining]

@@danielmahecha6779 thanks! That’s exactly right!

[@mohammadrezasamadian7319]

In Canadian flight schools, teach the same as what you explain .canyon turn is a solid example of using full flaps during turn .

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

BS, Full flaps at low power due alt is DRAG FLAPS. Use only LIft Flaps or under 20 degrees.

[@kurtisf3366]

⁠@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 I don’t think you know what a canyon turn is. The canyon turn is done at full throttle, there’s nothing low power about it. I was taught: 1) maneuver to the far right or left side of the canyon, you will be in an upslope position on the mountain close to the ground, 2) cut throttle, 3) nose up to trade airspeed for altitude, 4) once in the white arc drop full flap and roll it over to 60 degrees of bank in the downslope direction towards the center of the canyon, 5) nose down to maintain 65 knots trading altitude for airspeed, 6) roll out of the turn, recover and clean up the airplane. The technique results in a very tight turn, I’ve executed a 180 degree turn in a C172 loaded within 90% of max gross weight in a 370m radius using this technique. The turn requires loss of altitude to manage the airspeed. Edited to add radius from my ForeFlight track log.

[@Warhawk666]

​@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350 slower you go and higher angle of bank would result in the tightest turn. Full flaps would ensure you can fly slow as possible to preform the turn with the smallest radius and not stall

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

@@kurtisf3366 LOL. They say im an expert on 3 kinds of Turnbacks and Turnarounds. It is bullshit to cut the power, raise nose when on a canyon. Between mountains you tend to pull up more than over flat area due the ground on windshield optical effect. You will do an accelerated stall before flaps added. Tell that Bullshiter to demo that on a real canyon at 10,000 feet density altitude from a Vx climb as usual. He is bullshiting you. DEMAND THAT VIDEO from a real vx climb.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

@@Warhawk666 How many power off steep turn accelerated stalls have you done ? I used to teach them on Cherokees, Grummans and Tomahawks and Cessnas. YOU are advocating accelerated stalls on Box Canyon Turnbacks.

[@101akar]

Amazing work - as always thanks for giving the detail and making the video simple to follow

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much! That means a lot!

[@crunion1]

Excellent video on flap usage. Flaps and maintaining DMMS until final will work every time. "Maintain thy airspeed lest the Earth rise up and smite thee." Disasters don't just happen. They're [triggered by] a chain of critical events.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks! 😂 I remember that verse from somewhere.

[@gabrielpearson]

My question is what if DMMS is equal to Vfe? It is in my aircraft.

[@blt1158]

EXCELLENT explanation. 25+ year commercial airline pilot had me paranoid about split flaps in the pattern while PPL training in a Skyhawk.

[@FreePilotTraining]

That’s so funny cuz the airline guys drop them in the turn all the time.

[@cubs56698489]

I've watched every one of your videos. I only fly in msfs but I have gotten much better from watching them. This might be my favorite video so far. I love your idea about creating a video with Rod. The second flying related book I ever bought was probably his 1980ish manual. First was Stick and Rudder which I am actually rereading now. I fly mostly the Beaver in the sim and I've seen multiple videos saying to use flaps in a turn with them. Now I understand why. Thanks for expending the time and energy to make these videos!

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re so welcome! I hope to start incorporating some sim stuff into my future vids!

[@tradingtimes5752]

I want to start the ms2020 flight sim but I want to fly the Cirrus Vision is it offered Thanks havent purchased the software yet where should I get it from ? Thanks

[@FreePilotTraining]

@@tradingtimes5752 I bought it from the Microsoft online store. I wish I had the disk, but I don’t know if you can even do that anymore

[@hauberbrian]

Great video! Going to cite part 23 next time I have this conversation. However, a month ago at the flight school I currently work at there was a flap roller that failed and the flaps got wedged into the ailerons and locked them into position. The aircraft was in a bank at the time so they got locked into a bank and had to declare an emergency and fly another lap in the pattern with rudder and elevator trim. Highly unlikely situation, but that is also a hazard. I will still use flaps in turns for all my patterns.

[@FreePilotTraining]

That is an excellent point. If the flaps get wedged into the ailerons, your basically screwed if you can’t get those loose. The best option is to try and move them back where they were immediately

[@tradingtimes5752]

and climb if possible and last resort pop your caps Cirrus wannabe man here

[@theovanvliet3988]

Love you explanation and thank you for that, I will use flaps in a turn without hesitation. What I still not understand is the aerodynamic logic why the circle gets smaller when flaps are used. I believe that if you set flaps, you have to lower speed, or bank more to keep the flight level.

[@FreePilotTraining]

This is a complete theory of mine. As I stated, horizontal lift component apposes load factor, BUT if my theory is correct, load factor IS NOT equal and opposite of horizontal lift because BELOW flaps limiting speed, weight will be greater than the force created by inertia. In my personal opinion, THIS is why maneuvering speed is so important. Load factor is closer to being equal and opposite. Now, if weight is greater than the interia force, WHEN we lower flaps, the horizontal lift component can become greater WITHOUT increasing vertical lift.

[@TheAirplaneDriver]

30 years of flying and instructing and 5,000 landings later….I never even heard of any concern at all for applying flaps in a turn until I saw this video.

[@FreePilotTraining]

I had never heard of it either until I started getting comments

[@johnrn-pilot3083]

Same here.

[@bwalsberg]

Better to nip it in the bud before it (the bad habit) develops😂.

[@klausbellroth5451]

I think the main reason why CFIs teach you not to use flaps is that for student pilots, landings are hard enough to do as it is and they don't need the extra workload. It's easier to handle one thing at a time, turning OR changing the flap settings. It's easy to get overwhelmed and miss a crucial change in attitude or speed. Imagine a student making a turn to final. Assuming that their descend was stabilized so far, their main focus is probably on making the centerline. Maybe they'll also be able to keep an eye on the speed. However, if they change the flap setting during the turn, the workload increases. The plane will want to slow down and lower the descend rate, both of which need to be countered. In my view, changing the flap setting during a turn is not inherently dangerous, but it does increase the workload, which is not ideal, especially for students. Once you're more comfortable handling the plane and predicting what it is going to do, I don't see any issues using the flaps while turning, though.

[@FreePilotTraining]

I do believe this to be the case, but I don’t see the difference in doing that and increasing the flaps in the descent which can initially cause the plane to balloon and make them more unstable on final

[@gerardmoran9560]

Good job! We use and adjust flap settings all of the time in the military (fighters & transports) and in the airlines while turning. BTW- transports are designed under the stricter guidelines of FAA part 25. That's probably why all of the transports I've flown (Boeing & Lockheed) have a system to stop flap movement once an asymmetry is detected. Happy landings!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much! I need to look more at Part 25, but that makes total sense!

[@nicolasbilal8769]

This was awesome. I remember my instructor telling me not to use flaps in a turn but was never told why. Great video. I love how informative you are while also backing up your claims.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks Nicolas!

[@ar15gator]

Thank you for this video, it’s especially great to have seen this video at this time, for I am actually a sport pilot, flying in the LSA classification exclusively, and within the classification everything is so light and nimble and there’s so much to be aware of constantly just in flying a plane in GA. This video kind of puts to rest some concerns and worries, Thx again!

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! Thanks for joining me today!

[@wadeh9124]

Student pilot's are taught to not SET flaps during a turn for CRM. They have enough to keep them busy just working the pattern, power. airspeed and don't need to add putting their eyes in the cockpit to find and use flaps during critical low manufacturing. They are just never taught its ok to do as they get more experience. They should be taught to set prior to the turn to maintain the FAA stable approach. You're exactly spot on, flaps for pattern turns are a great tool.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks for the comment. I’m sure you mean SRM? CRM probably doesn’t apply to most student pilots. I like my students to practice task management skills in the cockpit while I’m there. That helps them develop those multitasking skills in the cockpit

[@wadeh9124]

@Free Pilot Training not familiar with SRM? We use CRM for Cockpit Resource Mangement with students in the midwest. At least that's what it was 3 years ago for my CFI. Wouldn't surprise me it changed with so many other FAA changes recently. keep up the great videos

[@NorthwestAeronaut]

Keep in mind, too, that those load factors and stall speeds at various bank angles only apply in level flight. Not in a descending turn which is what we’re usually doing in the pattern. 👍

[@FreePilotTraining]

Exactly

[@BillPalmer]

they apply in a climb or descent exactly as in level flight as long as your climb or descent rate is constant. for example, if you're descending wings level at a constant 500 ft/min it's still 1 G. the vertical speed of the aircraft is irrelevant if you're not accelerating vertically (thus changing the load factor - which is what really drives the change in stall speed)

[@talreichert]

@@BillPalmer I'm afraid technically this is incorrect. Load factor is lift divided by weight, at a no-turn climb or descent the load factor equals the cosine of the climb/descent angle (which means that for small angles it is extremely close to 1, making the difference unnoticeable and irrelevant). I will be happy to explain further if of interest.

[@BillPalmer]

@@talreichert Ok, ya got me it's not 1 G it's 0.9986 G on a typical 3° descent angle (e.g., ILS glideslope) However the G force in the cockpit if the scale was level with the ground would be 1.0. Just like it is in an elevator going up or down at a constant speed. It's interesting to note that the difference in g force of just being on the equator vs the pole is a bigger difference than that 3° climb or descent (0.65% vs 0.14%) Cheers. 🙂

[@talreichert]

@@BillPalmer Well, I did say it's extremely close to 1... The issue I was commenting about was the categorical statement that any time an airplane is not accelerating it means the load factor is 1. Naturally, should you choose a steeper angle, you'll get a more noticeable change (e.g. high-speed glide or a climb at Vx). Lastly, I agree that if you put an object on a scale in the cockpit, any non-accelerated situation results in it weighing its full weight (m*g), just not as a result of the lift.

[@phosfurgaming917]

By far the best pilot channel on KZbin. ❤ always 100% in depth with clear cut explanations. Keep doing what you’re doing!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much! That means a lot!

[@phosfurgaming917]

@@FreePilotTraining of course man, you helped me get through PPL. I’m on Instrument training now. But every new student at my school I meet, I send them here.

[@FreePilotTraining]

@@phosfurgaming917 much appreciated! I wish I could’ve started doing instrument videos by now. I’ve just been so busy lately

[@phosfurgaming917]

@@FreePilotTraining no worries man. I know when you get to it eventually I might actually understand it lol. No rush

[@rezaesfahani6573]

Thank you so much again for your another very informative video.I haven’t read this before and never thought from this angle.Thanks for effort you put to make these videos,well done again

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much!

[@mach1driver960]

Flaps are an integral part of patern work. You start to add flaps on the down wind before even making your cross wind turn. Not to mention short, and\or soft field takeoffs... I really appreciate the videos and the way you explain things. The humor added in helps keep it fun and engaging. You remind me alot of Rod Machado with the style. Keep up the great work! And E=MC² to you too buddy!😂😂

[@FreePilotTraining]

Yes, they are! They are an excellent tool! Thank you so much!

[@aviatortrevor]

The "level flight" part is a pretty big part of what you said about the chart that shows the relationship between bank angle and increase in stall speed. If you're not pulling back in the turn, you're not increasing load factor, and therefore stall speed does not increase in the turn.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Yes, that’s why I said “low on glideslope.” If your low, it’s not uncommon to make a level turn on base to final

[@BlueMax333]

this video got me thinking! Beautifully explained. Learnt a lot. Many thanks!

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! Thanks for watching!

[@XanderxXxCageX]

If the only argument against it is a chance of split flaps, you should understand loss of control will be regardless, level or in a bank. If theres an immediate yaw or roll, all you can really do is try to retract flaps all the way or to the stuck flaps angle.

[@N91CZ]

Regarding tightening the turn with flaps - something got a little off. The turn radius is purely a function of the horizontal lift component (from the bank angle) and your true airspeed. Sorry for an equation: r=v^2/a. If your bank angle was truly the same, you were making exactly the same lift as in the no-flap case - AoA was lowered to compensate for the flaps. How do we know this? Consider that your vertical lift component was also identical given that you were not climbing or descending during the turn. The two ways to tighten a turn is to slow down or increase bank angle. Here is a related video - load factor with airspeed. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bYCuoXqffcZ4n9E

[@FreePilotTraining]

However, flaps also increase lift. Therefore, if I bank my airplane, my horizontal lift is also increased.

[@N91CZ]

@@FreePilotTraining flaps increase lift if all other factors remain the same. If you maintained the same bank and increase lift, you would tighten the turn AND start climbing. That is, both the horizontal and vertical components would have increased. Since you remained at the same altitude you know the vertical component did not increase and thus you can deduce that the horizontal component also remained the same.

[@N91CZ]

@@FreePilotTraining Just compared screenshots of the brief period the bank was visible in the video. The flapped bank angle was noticeably steeper. If both are representative of the entire turn, that would explain the different turn radii.

[@VegasCSIP]

@@N91CZ I agree 100%, N91CZ. Turn radius is purely a function of groundspeed and bank angle. Now it IS true that flaps let you tighten the turn radius because you can then safely fly at a lower airspeed (so, a lower groundspeed) - or a steeper bank angle - if you do so! But if you really do maintain the same bank angle and the same airspeed (again, technically groundspeed), your turn radius cannot change. There is another misconception in this thread - that is that wing loading is less in a descending turn. It is at the _start_ of the descent - that is, when the airplane is accelerating down - but that lasts only so long. Once the descent is established, the wing loading returns to what it would be (for that bank angle) in level flight. BTW, I lower flaps in the turn, as needed, and that's what I teach.

[@marccreal]

I agree, too. I also wrote a comment which says basically the same (did not see this one at the time).

[@ldfranklin2]

I’m a student pilot and have been nervous about dropping flaps in a turn for fear of upsetting the attitude of the AC. After watching this video you clarified a lot of things that make sense and have taken that worry away. Thanks!

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! Thanks for watching

[@bungee7503]

Flap extension normally makes the nose pitch down, so don’t worry.

[@FreePilotTraining]

@@bungee7503 that’s exactly right

[@shopart1488]

Always increase your airspeed you can always loose that increased speed on final The book is suggested increase it by 20% see how much better it feels.

[@blainepetsupplies5354]

If flaps increase lift, how do they make the nose pitch down? I’m also a student pilot soloing in a champ right now which doesn’t have flaps but in msfs (I know it’s just a simulator) when I lower the flaps when landing, the nose pitches up at each notch of flaps only right when I extend them, after pushing the yoke forward to keep my glide pitch, it levels back out

[@olivieraudige7959]

I have always made my turns in report base and report on final to use the flaps, thank you for yours videos.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Nice! You’re welcome!

[@HighField-qr6bl]

Brilliant! This is the best explanation ever, on so many different levels!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much High Field!

[@DougBowman6]

Thanks for the great video. Appreciate your hard work! Here is my equation... C130 driver + military training + FAA certs + Rod M. homework = YT video that is legit & worth twice the price! 😎😂

[@FreePilotTraining]

😂 I love that equation! Thank you so much!

[@billharris5231]

When you are turning for final you are also descending, so you aren't in level flight which is a requirement for determining that the load factor at 45 degrees is 1.414G. So, since you are descending, won't the load factor actually be less than 1.414G, thereby contributing less to the increase in stall speed? I.E., maintaining a descent while banking at 45 degrees in a base to final turn adds a little bit more to the "safety factor" that you mention. Do I understand that correctly?

[@FreePilotTraining]

Yes, this is true. That’s why I mentioned being “low on glideslope.” The real problem is when you level out and steepen that turn up.

[@marccreal]

Nice video! Your reasoning makes sense (and in the end, who would want to question Rod? ;-) ) but I have to jump in on one point because imho it is wrong that flaps tighten your turn at least in the way you explained (and showed) it. The turn radius is depending on airspeed and bank angle - how should the flaps come in there? If you fly the same airspeed and the same bank angle, I don't see how the turn radius should change so I was quite confused by your demonstration. Yes, flaps increase lift but this is only an instantanous effect - you will have to change something (power setting and or angle of attack) to remain level and then, the wing produces again 1g of lift. Generally, flaps of course allow you to fly lower airspeeds and this lower airspeed will then give you a thighter turn radius. But if you remain level and remain at the same airspeed, I see no reason why the turn radius should change. The forces to execute the (level) turn are exactly the same regardless of the flap position. Am I missing something?

[@VegasCSIP]

Correct. I agree with most of this well-done and nicely explained video, but this point is, unfortunately, inconsistent with facts. I responded to C91CZ with the same comment.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Turn radius is directly related to the horizontal component of lift. There’s quite a bit of information in the PHAK on the subject

[@marccreal]

@@FreePilotTraining Sure it is - via the bank angle. The horizontal component of lift is in a fixed relation to the total lift and also to the vertical component: Vertical and horizontal vectors add up to the total lift vector. As the vertical component has to be 1g, this automatically fixes the other two. With flaps, you get more lift at the same angle of attack. But regardless of the flap setting, for straight and level flight, your wing has to generate exactly 1g of lift. For a level turn, it has to generate load-factor*g lift. With flaps, you can achieve this lift with a smaller angle of attack, but it's still the same amount of force.

[@guyrandom1]

Thank you for doing a deep dive on this topic!!!

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome!

[@MattyCrayon]

Just finished up my CPL and even during that training, I was getting a "Don't use flaps during the turn" from a couple of instructors, with no real explanation of why they thought it was bad. During my training, they also said that the wings don't care which way the plane is turned or turning. the airflow over the wing is the same, so if' its the same, then the plane doesn't care if you put flaps down in straight and level, or in a turn.. This was an awesome video! Thanks for taking the time to explain.

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! That’s a fact…as long as you’re coordinated and the controls have been neutralized.

[@a320nick]

@Matty Crayon: If they were right we could never do an orbit on approach....as requested by ATC - raising flaps here, especially after base leg, would be bad, unwise and uneccesary.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

@@a320nick WTF !!

[@andrewtaco]

Keep up the great work! Your navlog video helped me throughout my entire PPL training up to passing my checkride. And to prove that, a^2 + b^2 = c^2

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much! Congrats on that PPL! Glad to have you around

[@PablitoElio]

Thank you for talking about this!!!!! its very important to know it

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome!

[@jodyolivent8481]

Great video. Fortunately, I was taught to use all the tools at my disposal to make the plane do what I need it to do. Happy E+MC^2 to you too.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks Jody! 😆

[@raccoonair]

Excellent explanation; thanks for sharing.

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! Thanks for joining me!

[@LocalConArtist]

Thanks for the great videos, you are helping me through groundschool!

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! I’ll be seeing you around then!

[@ZSn1p3r0]

Thank you so much for sharing this video! I had an instructor teach me not to lower flaps in a turn when I started and my CFIIs have all consistently emphasized doing it on circling approaches. I kept asking them, very confused, and none of them knew what I was talking about. I can’t express enough how much I appreciate this!

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! That’s exactly right, flaps are important on circling approaches. In fact, flaps can change the category of some aircraft when circling because the circling minimums are based on turn radius

[@hiscifi2986]

I think your instructor was correct, but not for the reasons you think. Always be wings level when selecting flaps. So for instance progressively select flaps on base leg. The very act of selecting flaps will cause some pitch variations, which may catch you out if you are fully concentrating on your bank angle, in an ever changing horizon.

[@ZSn1p3r0]

@@hiscifi2986 I hear the logic behind this, but I still question it. In a turn to base, you’re pitching down. You should be paying attention to everything. Are you saying when you fly a circling approach you don’t add flaps in the turn to short final?

[@hiscifi2986]

In the UK we don't do the circling approach, we keep the circuits rectangular. Also using no more than 15 deg angle of bank in the climbing turns, with all flaps selection on base leg. This makes for a stabilised final from the 600ft turn onto final. We also universally adopt the 'Bumffpitch' memo on the 1000ft downwind leg.

[@flyingfamily1203]

I had a cfi teaching me some bush flying in a 1961 182. He was using the manual flaps to tighten turns in level flight following a river. Adding flaps in the turn releasing as the turn rolled level out.

[@FreePilotTraining]

That’s pretty cool! I’ve been getting a lot of crop dusters telling me that they use them for this as well!

[@lukeacl]

Really excellent points made in this video in a super clear way. I'm a flight instructor here in Australia and this gave me pause for thought about what and how I'm teaching and how that's backed up by some pretty simple examples. Some great takeaways.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks Luke! I appreciate that! I need to get down there and fly at some point

[@nostradamus7648]

Who flies better? Roos or Koalas?

[@michaelhughesdvm]

All of your videos are thoughtful and informative. All are very well put together. But this one - the best by far! What a fantastic way to use humour to teach :) Thanks v v much from Canada.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much for that! I love adding those little bits of humor that pop into my head. They make it so much more fun

[@michaelhughesdvm]

(Exceptional teaching) = [(Much information) (Correctly presented)^2] So here’s the correct E = M C^2 :)

[@sonoftherepublic9792]

Thank you. Excellent video and great technical research and analysis. I’ve been instructed both do and don’t over the years. I usually do apply flaps in turns and find that compared to level flight, they are virtually unnoticeable to passengers because the sensations related to any changes in pitch and speed are both mitigated by banking. I also seem to fly a smoother, more accurate and stable pattern applying flaps when they are needed instead of waiting for an arbitrary level off period between turns; especially when flying relatively tight, “power off” patterns. Thanks again!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks! I really appreciate that! I never thought of that before, but using them in the turn could alleviate that ballooning feeling from lowering them in level flight

[@vesnajurc4188]

Great video. First time I actually got a comprehensive explanation on this topic!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you!

[@murraynielsen3532]

Absolute legend! Love the videos man, keep it up 🙌🏼

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks Murray! That means a lot!

[@smudent2010]

Literally what we teach in the military for final turns. It's perfectly fine

[@FreePilotTraining]

Exactly

[@markuslutzenburger8982]

I just found your channel and I like it a lot how you approach that topic. What a friend of mine showed me also when to lower my flaps to use it as a even better tool. This applies to a C-172: Abeam the numbers in the downwind leg, flaps 10 and trim to 80 kts IAS and power setting to have a stable flight. In the apex of the turn to base leg, lower to 20. Without any input, power adjustments or trim the C-172 will slow down to 75 kts IAS after the turn still perfectly trimmed out. Same then for base to final. Just next notch of flaps of 30 degrees. After the final turn, you will be at 60kts. Way less work to keep your attitude, airspeed and descent rate. Very helpful in our crowded pattern and super short 1340 ft (408 m) runway where every landing has to be on spot.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you Markus! I appreciate that. Great tip!

[@samterrell3265]

I love these videos so much they are so interesting and funny at the same time. keep up the great work!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks! It’s always hard to know how well my jokes are going to land!

[@geoffspitfire5160]

I was taught not to lower flaps during a turn but lower them before rolling into that turn because of the slight chance one side hangs up as the instructor says. Very informative video thanks for posting.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks!

[@airlandnsea]

I've learned a lot on your channel, keep up the good and funny work.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks Steve! Will do!

[@RandyBroderick]

I just found your channel. I love it and I subscribed! I'm also a big fan of the PA28-140. I've got one too 😁

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks Randy! Good to have you here! Love the 140! Great plane!

[@briantaylor9594]

Great video and explanation! Another option to always consider, if things are going wrong (I.e. overshoot, too much Bank, not stable,etc.), is to go around. NO reason to push a bad situation.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Absolutely. There’s nothing wrong with going around

[@TimE-en7jf]

Incredibly well done. Keep it up!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks Tim!

[@JohnChuprun]

Rod Machado is awesome. Really enjoyed his books while learning.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Yes, he is!

[@NOBODY00000]

Thanks for the hard work sir 💪🏽

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! I’ve been wanting to make this video for a while. Finally got my chance!

[@rauldiaz3193]

Spot on Sir. I was taught to use flaps in a turn and not load up the wing and that will minimize the stall spin on base to final. And is I did overshoot and don’t like the it there is always a go around.

[@GyrionSports]

I’ve been watching your vids and love them. Just learned you are a C130 pilot. My son is finishing up at Vance, then on to Kirtland. He will be flying for AKANG. Thanks for the videos, I love them as a private pilot.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much! That’s so awesome! I tried really hard to get in that unit and they told me they don’t have any slots for rated pilots. So jealous…

[@GyrionSports]

@@FreePilotTraining thanks for the response. Did you train at Kirtland or Little Rock? My son is looking for any gouge (his words not mine) you can offer lol.

[@FreePilotTraining]

@@GyrionSports Little Rock. I’d love to help him out, but the AF schools are pretty great

[@briancasey7693]

Thanks, great video. Many stall,spin accidents in the pattern, I always put flaps on early to prevent a stall when slowing in the pattern, didn’t know it allowed for a tighter turn , all the more reason. THANKS

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks Brian! That’s a fact! They definitely add a safety buffer

[@ShadowFreedum]

CFII here, seldom do I comment, but this video seems to acknowledge one of the many teaching points I attempt to hammer into my students. There is an incredible amount of nuance and individuality that comes with every airplane in any environmental scenario that should lead us to NEVER paint aviation in only black and white. Stating “NEVER use flaps in a turn” is incredibly narrow minded as there are many scenarios where this may be a pilots best option! I find it to be MUCH better to have students understand the relationship between wing loading, airspeed, and angle of attack. With a great understanding of load factor, airspeed, and angle of attack, stalls in any scenario can often be avoided by simple situational awareness coupled with muscle memory recovery in a wide variety of stall scenarios… not just simple power on and off without banking. ❤️ the video

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much! That’s one of the biggest reasons why I started making videos like this. Supply information that gives pilots “things to think about,” then they can use “good pilot judgment” to decide what they should do in any given situation

[@ShadowFreedum]

@@FreePilotTraining Absolutely 🙏🏼 keep up the great work. Educating with extensive context is absolutely exhausting, especially when dealing with people on the internet haha, but you’re doing great. New sub here.

[@FreePilotTraining]

@@ShadowFreedum thank you so much!

[@andykaltenhauser1234]

Great !!Thank you for sharing!! Awesome!!

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! Thanks for watching!

[@lisaleedavidson]

Great video and it makes you think!!! I read somewhere not to add flaps while turning, only while wings level. That’s clearly out the window now.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks Joel!

[@chaseshumway4062]

Thank you! The hero we needed 👍🏼👍🏼

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! Thanks for the comment!

[@philrichards1283]

A very good explanation and perfectly correct. Having ridden with Ag pilot's in NZ, (when you were allowed to do so, not now.) they would always be adding flaps during their turns particularly when still heavily loaded. And if anyone can get the best out of an aircraft safely it would be an Ag pilot. I've learned more from them than an instructor and I apply a lot of what I have learned from Ag pilot's to my own piloting although I refrain from flying at the low altitudes required for Ag work.

[@FreePilotTraining]

I had no idea that ag pilots did this on purpose until producing this video. I’ve been getting lots of comments mentioning that

[@nelsonbrandt7847]

Excellent, this is exactly what I needed

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks!

[@AkPacerPilot]

Excellent video, 100% what I was taught.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much!

[@xplayman]

This video was so many different degrees of great explanation

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks! I appreciate that!

[@SamLeHardy]

Very helpful! Thank you.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks! I appreciate that!

[@GeneralChangOfDanang]

I was trained in a Rans S-7 and was always taught to add the first notch of flaps at the start of the descent and full flaps on final. We would even do forward slips with full flaps. It's ok in that airplane but check the operating manual for your particular aircraft.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Yes, that’s exactly right. Cessna says it’s prohibited with full flaps

[@Slimothy]

*I love when KZbinrs get fed up with geeks in the comment section making up BS/spreading false info. Great video* 👌🏻

[@FreePilotTraining]

😂 don’t get me angry! Lol, thank you so much!

[@cofibot8270]

Good video and good reasoning. 9:03 - This chart is a graphical representation of two equations. But that doesn't take away from your point. Equations are tools, and we need to use the right tool for the job.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much! Yes, we need to use the tools we have available

[@ronsflightsimlab9512]

A great point! My instructor slapped my hand for putting flaps in during a turn... Going to send him the link! And show this to MY students. Thanks!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Awesome! Time to ruffle some feathers 😆

[@corvettedoc1]

@@FreePilotTraining During my checkride for getting cleared to solo I got told about the split flaps and dont do it, promptly sent him this video. Even instructors can learn from other instructors.

[@lanceerickson9611]

Just improved my WarThunder performance. Thanks!

[@FreePilotTraining]

😆 you’re welcome!

[@robertcovell2787]

When I was a young man (long time ago) I spent a lot of hours in the right seat of a Beaver in the Canadian north. We routinely found ourselves dropping into tiny lakes on steep approach. Couldn't do it without flaps deployed during the entire circuit. You are bang on!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks Robert! Someday I’m going to fly a Beaver! Those look so cool!

[@robertcovell2787]

@@FreePilotTraining They shake and rattle but they never quit!

[@ryanborchardt5078]

Phenomenal video as always.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks Ryan!

[@deanfowlkes]

I loved this video. I have been banking and turning with flaps deployed when approaching for landing. However, I don’t feel comfortable moving/adjusting flaps while banked. Only while wings level.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks! I just wanted to clear up any confusion out there

[@nkawtg4]

What? People didn't know this? Nice job explaining it. As a 26 year AMT,/A&P/IA, This is common knowledge. I can't wait to enter the pilot world and debunk these type of "common misconceptions." Nice 4 fan btw, but NKAWTG!

[@FreePilotTraining]

It’s crazy, I know! Yeah, I’d love to see some stuff from an A&P!

[@lechstryzewski9350]

Awesome work !!! - Thank you !!!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much!

[@ksuen106]

My PPL instructor was the “no flaps during turn” type, and as a student it just increased the workload during straight leg portions of the pattern work.

[@FreePilotTraining]

I could see that, but I’d rather you be busy off the perch and turning base than be busy on final trying to get the plane stable

[@artswri]

Great info Thanks

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! Thanks for the comment!

[@MsLjusi]

Wow! Thanks a lot for your clear and “funny” explanation! 🔥🔥🔥

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! Thanks for that and thanks for watching!

[@gilbertofauri2135]

tank you for this very special video. From Brasil.

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! Thanks for watching!

[@jlnrt]

Thanks for the great explanation ! Next step add it to my final turn :)

[@FreePilotTraining]

No problem! Thanks for watching!

[@micsherwood4930]

Excellent! i have seen many RC pilots stall spin while turning to land, and brought this same issue up. it never goes over well, so i demonstrate why pilots add flaps while on downwind leg. i feel, as you have shown, it allows more options when needing to correct alignment through base-final. thanks for this video. i now have something to send them too, so maybe there will be less crashing on the field. BTW, it is the only way i land a sailplane, RC and Certified.

[@FreePilotTraining]

Too cool. I’m always fascinated when RC pilots and simmers also find these videos useful

[@williamursery2554]

48J! I teach in this airplane. Thanks for the video!

[@FreePilotTraining]

That’s awesome! It’s a great little plane! You’re welcome!

[@gerhardcombrinck7026]

Good video - thanks.

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! Thanks for the comment!

[@donuts5491]

thx! Very nice video!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thanks! I appreciate that!

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

When CFI I used to teach crosswind landings using normal flaps until short final. Then raise them slowly to land with no flaps. No, you wont stall if nose is down, it even accelerates a bit.

[@FreePilotTraining]

I’ve actually heard this technique a few times now. I may make a video

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

@@FreePilotTraining That was in 1999, so i dont have any videos myself. I even had a blue line on Vglide speed on all airplanes i taught there (about 6) A now called DMMS line. If Crosswind, i used Vglide Blue Line until short final with flaps, then cut them slow to land with none or 10 degrees only. Put a blue line on Vglide first.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

@@FreePilotTraining I was the old CFI that in 2010 put the first video on youtube showing how to do 4 kinds of EFATO and cutting flaps on flare and accel stalls and other maneuvers. I did that video in 1995 when CFI. Cherokee, Sebastian airport FL, 4,000 feet runways, 16 knots winds. Yes i did 4 tailwind landings on 4k runway. Cutting flaps.. After 2 weeks i was insulted so much that i put it private. Its still private. But some brave pilots started practicing the EFATO Turnbacks i showed (2 kinds, partial and no power, Cherokee 150).

[@Tee7driver]

Keep up with the awesome work

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you so much!

[@susansticazsky9787]

Emc2 you 2 awesome video thanks!!

[@FreePilotTraining]

You’re welcome! It seems I may have started something 😆

[@wingandaprayer883]

Excellent video. I have been flying for decades and was always taught to use flaps in the circuit/pattern. There is one other little advantage, if you apply the flaps at the same time as beginning a turn, in most GA types this will produce the usual 'balloon' in pitch, that balloon will in many cases match the increased pitch required to hold altitude in a turn. (Yes I am aware this doesn't apply to some aircraft types with barndoor flaps or types that have a pitch down moment).

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you! That is so true! You could intentionally roll them in the turn to keep from ballooning

[@alexarnoldy]

You bring up a lot of good points, and a couple of very important things I didn't know/hadn't thought about. However, the most important thing, IMHO, that you left out is to stay ahead of the airplane. I fly a 182 that has had a split flap condition (the side that doesn't have the motor jammed) which might make me a little more cautious than most. I have no problem getting in 10 degrees before turning base, then 20 before final, which lowers my stall speed from 51 to 44 kts before I turn final. Less experienced pilots might have trouble staying ahead of the plane, but less experience is a good reason to have the plane configuration stabilized with 20 degrees of flaps in before turning final. Great topic to cover. Thanks for all of your helpful videos!

[@FreePilotTraining]

Thank you! That is so true! Staying ahead of the airplane is key! Especially in a complex aircraft

[@terryrigden4860]

Thank you, I learned a lot. I'm just getting used to using flaps on a R/C model

[@FreePilotTraining]

No problem!

[@rogern5368]

Are your flaps on separate servos in your model with a Y harness on one channel or separate channels ?? Something different with full scale and models is that if either one Servo could fail on a Y and or one channel could fail. In any case if turning and or flying a model putting flaps down if one fails it could roll the plane very fast and if your a novice it 😢could be hard to recover likely even an expert rc pilot could have a crash. It’s always good to set the first 10* of flaps on downwind like I would teach in full scale at a 45 degree angle to the end of the runway. Flying a model you would have to think of yourself sitting in it to guess where it is. But at least in straight and level Flight you would know they work and if not have altitude to save your model by quickly raising the flaps if one was not functioning. In full scale not ask likely likely but if so the same goes get that flap lever in the full up position as fast as possible to save your plane and or your butt if flying full scale. Good luck with the complex model transition.