Should Land Rover Defender Be Worried by the Ineos Grenadier? I Drive Both Back-to-Back!

( www.alltfl.com/ ) Check out our new spot to find ALL our content, from news to videos and our podcasts! The Ineos Grenadier is billed as a spiritual successor to the old-school 4x4, thanks to its design and relatively no-nonsense layout. But how does it compare to the Land Rover Defender, which has been thoroughly redesigned from its agricultural roots? Tommy checks out both SUVs back to back!
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#landrover #SUV #grenadier

[@GM-kj6sb]

You forgot to mention that the B58 engine is also used in the Toyota Supra. If Toyota has the confidence to put this engine in their car, it must be reliable.

[@RileyMonthule]

Supra uses a modified version of the engine that Toyota went over. I forget the specifics but they changed a lot about the engine to meet their standards.

[@GM-kj6sb]

@@RileyMonthule I didn’t think they changed much but good to know. Either way, the B58 has proven itself in every application.

[@chir0pter]

I just searched for it and found a blog post saying B58 is the best BMW engine ever, and they made some pretty good points

[@RileyMonthule]

@@GM-kj6sb o yeah no it’s definitely a good engine. Just don’t think it’s very cool in a 4x4. This thing just looks like it has a gnarly v8.

[@destroyerarmor2846]

​@@RileyMonthulestraight 6 engine is good

[@oliver5403]

Grenadier looks awesome. I am not even considering a Defender. I saw a Grenadier about 30 minutes ago on an ad and now I want one. 😊

[@noaerrr]

The grenadier is worse in every way, it’s also like 15k more expensive than the defender

[@tysony8785]

I love my Defender and I do take it off road. I think it’s the perfect balance between on and off road capabilities. I was intending to buy a 392 wrangler but after driving both and realizing 90 percent of the driving would be on road the Defender was the clear winner. I have 15k miles on my defender and zero issues. I’d buy another one for sure. The Ineos I’m sure is pretty awesome. I love the story behind Ineos. It great that both exist. I say drive both and pick which works best for you.

[@michaelstanley3961]

Grenadier Back doors cover rear lights when open, bad design

[@jalopy2472]

@@tysony8785you’ll change your mind after driving a vehicle with a slower steering ratio, solid front and rear axles, and no full-time AWD.

[@alannevin449]

Hi All from Scotland ! I’ve owned 53 Land Rover so far , currently have a 1969 series 2a , a 1979 series 3 and a new Defender 90 D250 X-Dynamic SE , I bought the Defender new in December 2022 and so far it hasn’t missed a beat ! In my experience the Land Rover reliability issues are mainly historic, I bought a Discover 3 when they came out , it had so many faults in 6 months they bought it back ! Bought a Range Rover sport in 2018 ran it for 3 years with no problems whatsoever , did look at the Grenadier and I totally respect what Sir Jim has done but the Defender is just a fantastic vehicle that does everything I need it to do and so much more Keep up the good work TFL

[@Bare36]

If cars do not have reliability issues in first few months or few years thay are considered as reliable?...are you joking? My audi a6,2.5tdi from 1996 has well over 600 000km,i could go with it around the world trip. Its that reliable. Few months ago i drove it 230kmh,drives just normally,as any new car

[@alannevin449]

@@Bare36 If your happy with your Audi then thats your choice and I respect that, I on the other hand would rather have a new car with warranty breakdown cover and no MOT for the first 3 years then buy another car that meets my needs at that time , my older Land Rovers are a hobby in my retirement ! Also have a new Mini JCW for fun ! When my Defender is approaching 3 I’ll probably have a look at the Grenadier again, always need a good tow vehicle for our horse box

[@Bare36]

@@alannevin449 one of my other cars is '07 Nissan Patrol. I often use it for towing trailer,combine headers (2.5 t) and few times I have towed tractors,once i towed 10t firetruck. But i still can't talk about reliability...car has done only 180 000km...so its too early to talk about that subject. my point is that about car reliability is something which is discussed in long terms..cars are not smartphones,so that can last few years,and that somebody can say its a reliable product. Every car should make at least 150 000km without any issue. Also,there where few range/land rovers in my area, and all have fall apart,even under 100 000km. They where driven only on the road.

[@stuarthearn9890]

@@Bare36 HAVE an sdv6 disco 6 best car i ever had, but will it last, who knows, with our speed limits in Au it is never even tested

[@roundbabyproductions]

Scottish but live in Australia, pick my defender up in 5 days!! Can't wait

[@JackMcRoberts]

When I drive mine, everyone thinks the Grenadier is a land rover defender. Lol You're gonna have a ton of people going to the land rover dealership asking for the grenadier without even knowing.

[@Steve-gc5nt]

And coming away with a Defender

[@jimmydst]

sorry I have to disagree. If China tried to copy a Defender, this is what it would look like. Not for me personally but I hope you enjoy yours

[@420fpv8]

@@MOSSFEENonly in your hateful mind.

[@jacobwhite9006]

I find it looks more like the G-Wagon tbh.

[@JDOFunofficial]

​@@jimmydst it copied. It's called Jetour T2.

[@jpg6482]

I was torn on the two but went defender - very happy with it 30k in. Brilliant in day to day off road use - just put the option mud tyres on it. So much more comfortable and well thought out.

[@BBPlasSVT]

Wife and I recently purchased a 110 and we are beyond satisfied with it so far.

[@oldcargeezer]

Agree with you re tyres. The standard tyres are not great off road. The optional Goodyear Wrangler are a lot better at the expense of around 2mpg

[@doggedlydetermined7022]

The clientele is entirely different for these two vehicles.

[@logtothebase2]

I finally agree with the view that the land rover is a Disco LR3 update not a Defender. just because everytime I see one on the road its is as blinged out as far the driver can afford, Skinny black alloys, a V8 tinted rear windows, all rather sad. rather than Farmers and Vets in a the base model with steelies, hauling bales of hay, covered in mud. and by the way they aren't buying the Ineos either.

[@PaddyMcQueen]

same money ... still too much for a car supposed to be scratched on trails... nonsense.

[@foleyu2]

Not sure about that. If the Ineos was out when I bought my Defender I would have seriously considered it.

[@doggedlydetermined7022]

@@foleyu2the vast majority of these defenders are mall crawlers in wealthy suburban areas. The Ineos is far too old school for these buyers.

[@youtubecarspottersguide1]

still more for the rich kids for us who want to spend say $55k we don't have much to pick from in a wagon /s.u.v.

[@lawdog516]

Love the overhead switches !!! It’s like the cockpit of a jet, really think other manufacturers should start implementing that into their off road models, awesome

[@mattalexander4699]

4Runners have been doing it for years.

[@lawdog516]

@@mattalexander4699 Didn’t know that, thanks

[@klarie6805]

@@mattalexander4699 looked at 4runner pictures of interior definitely not like Grenadier. The switches in Grenadier are designed to operate it also with gloves if needed.

[@buckamoona]

After seeing the Ineos it honestly just made me appreciate what Land Rover did even more. They really brought it to modern times but still kept it capable and kept design hints from the past 👍

[@nnoddy8161]

See how you are going once it is out of warranty. JLR are a DISASTER in terms of durability and reliability.

[@defender1323]

I agree with you on that. Once warranty is over the best thing to do is sell it quick smart.@@nnoddy8161

[@sarahdell4042]

Both are way too much money.

[@taurota1554]

Awesome and outstanding as always.Thanks for sharing and taking us along

[@shawtravis7384]

I bought an Ineos Grenadier, and ended up rejecting the vehicle back to Ineos. Reason - the vehicle had been at the dealer for 6 weeks whilst Ineos Technical continue to fail to resolve a non-working cabin heater and aircon. Eventually I got the car back after it had been 'fixed' - and the fault reoccurred after 50 miles. The Customer Service people had told me that fixing my car was a priority, and that an Aftermarket Manager would personally resolve this issue. Nobody contacted me, an Ineos will not share the manager's contact details. Also - Ineos would not lend me a replacement 4x4. Why would they - I had paid in full and had no leverage. I wrote recorded delivery to Ineos CEO Lynn Calder to try to get some traction on this issue. There was no response from the boss. So, like the rest of her organisation - she doesn't care. So after rejecting the Ineos, I bought a new Defender and it is great! My conclusion - Land Rover should not be worried.

[@LaunchpadGP]

Glad I went with the Defender then. I might still consider a Grenadier in a few years once they've worked the kinks out. It's just so cool and unique.

[@tomgransinger2018]

How are they addressing service locations on the Ineos? Thank you

[@StlrNtn95]

The Grenadier really has my interest. I am curious to see what the long-term reviews will look like and what kind of aftermarket attention it gets.

[@outbackgearforu]

There’s an Aussie guy does a review and it’s not good,lack of customer support,no technical manuals for self service ,long waits for or no parts available

[@StlrNtn95]

@outbackgearforu That's disappointing. Hopefully, things get better.

[@noaerrr]

It’s an awful car and more expensive than the defender

[@australia-ukraine]

I was considering buying both cars for off-roading, long trips, and expeditions. After testing, thinking, reading, conducting research, and drawing conclusions, I bought a brand new Land Cruiser 70 Series (model 79) double cab with a 4.5L V8 engine (not the 2.8L version with an automatic gearbox, which I jokingly refer to as the 'LGBT version'). Both these cars (Grenadier & new Defender) are just expensive, overpriced and over advertised jokes.

[@loridumler-vv6ig]

Another great video, thank you! Loved seeing the new Ineos. Have to admit I’m partial to the Defender for what I need, it’s perfect. So fun to see the innovation in this market space.

[@Pesmog]

The speed alert thing is because from later this year in many markets (mainly in the EU) all new vehicles have to have either a speed alert or a smart graduated/hard physical speed limiter. For now they can be overridden, but will reset every engine start.

[@ckm-mkc]

Someone will hack this eventually - it's really annoying since, in the US, many jurisdictions set artificially low speed limits to generate ticket revenue....

[@Stuka87]

@@ckm-mkc If thats the case, it sounds like this feature would keep you from getting tickets.

[@BrantTheResidentCalvinist]

This would stop me from ever considering this vehicle. It shouldn’t be required by law but if it’s not, it shouldn’t exist. I’m not paying computers to be my nanny.

[@chir0pter]

The EU sucks so hard

[@jalopy2472]

No excuse, we are in USA and that can easily be changed via software. It shows how lazy Ineos is in their design/ engineering

[@StephenFogarty2023]

Ineos have one factory with a production capacity of 35,000 vehicles per year. And they are about to launch the Quartermaster Ute. LR are delivering over 100,000 Defenders per year worldwide, ( 110,367 in 2023 ) and can’t keep up with demand. Grenadier will appeal to a ( smaller ) group of people who want a more rugged and utilitarian vehicle. This suits a small company, with one factory, such as Ineos. Defender has better comfort / safety / tech / it’s a better daily driver, and it has excellent off road capability. ( that most owners will not utilise ) This larger set of attributes, is why Defender will continue to appeal, overall, to a wider range of people, compared to the Grenadier. Defender offers different body styles and engines etc LR built the new Defender to suit their company and business model. Both vehicles have their place, and will be successful vehicles for both companies. Whilst comparisons are inevitable. In reality some people might buy a Grenadier instead of a Defender. But some people will buy a Defender, instead of Grenadier. People will buy what suits them and their own specific requirements.

[@noaerrr]

There is literally no place for the ineos, it’s more expensive, worse off road, way less likely to be used as a work truck due to its insane price and it’s less comfortable.

[@antoniosolli771]

“Worse off road”?

[@noaerrr]

@@antoniosolli771 yeah

[@stevegreen101]

You say the new Defender was to suit JLR's business model but that's so wrong. The new Defender was a result of the previous business model that looked to water down the design principals of the old Defender to maximise vehicle sales. Yes, that's been achieved to some extent but there's been a big negative impact of Discovery sales.

[@PumpUptheJam81]

@@noaerrrdisagree

[@PookieMaliboo]

One question I had was Ineos service centers for any repairs or warranty work. Looking at their locations, I was suprised by how many dealerships there were already, so now i'm even more interested.

[@davidjernigan8161]

A lot of the service supposedly can be done at BMW dealers.

[@escdefender]

@@davidjernigan8161 incorrect that used to be an assumption, but is no longer correct. However unless you live in the middle of nowhere, they’re actually are many dealers currently for such a new company, and many to come as they expand.

[@jeffk464]

@@davidjernigan8161 BMW mechanics can fix it but do they have a contract with Ineos

[@pale4980]

For everyday driving the Defender all day long. What they really did with the redesign is they recreated the original Range Rover. While the new Rangies are all upmarket luxury barges that will almost never see dirt, the new defender picks up where the old range left off. A very comfortable vehicle for all use cases without being too agricultural. I just don't see the Ineos as a compelling proposition rather than a few enthusiasts - especially in the North American market - given its price point and lack of dealer support and probably very limited after market options, due to a small market. If I want to go full on off road prowess, with unlimited customization options - the Wrangler or the Bronco are the way to go. Ineos Grenadier is really a novelty/exotic car with no USP and a extremely small target demo imho. I wish them luck.

[@petermatusov3055]

The aftermarket support for the Grenadier is already wider than for the Defender. You really have no clue.

[@pale4980]

@@petermatusov3055 lol and you get an F in reading comprehension. I was talking aftermarket comparison in North America between Grenadier and Wrangler/Bronco.

[@dmegahan]

I saw a grenadier yesterday in person dropping a load at my local dump. It was really customized. Very nice. Coolest feature I saw was a cleat type system wrapping around almost the entire outside of the car for accessories like Jerry cans, max trax, etc.

[@doublebackagain4311]

Think you meant to say 'cleat' system?

[@dmegahan]

@@doublebackagain4311yep. Fixed.

[@twentysevenlitres]

The whole point of the Grenadier is that is spiritually continues where classic Defender left off. The new Defender is a luxury SUV, and not the rugged off-roader the Series 1/2/3 and Defender were. I'm sure the new Defender can do these things, but that's not the market it's targeting. Grenadier *_is_* targeting that rugged Defender market and would be better compared to a late model classic Defender than the current model.

[@leangrypoulet7523]

Most people, (certainly most mainstream journalists, most non 4x4 enthusiasts, and certainly most of the design team at LR), completely misunderstood about the (now) classic Defender is that it was the best 4x4 by far (thanks JLR marketing team), and that that was determined by its abilities off road. Whilst (in the right hands) it could be very capable, most of the modern LR fleet (Disco 1/2/3/4, RR etc), with their better underpinnings and tech such as HDC, would trounce a Defender family vehicle, if given the proper boots. The reality is what made the Defender 'great' was its flexibility, its adaptability and its fixability. The most adaptable utilitarian platform the world has ever seen, with no two vehicles being alike. Cherry pickers, to fire trucks, to NGO wagons, to oil tankers, to tow trucks, to military armoured vehicles, to ski chalet bus, to farm vehicle, to brazier's wagon, to overlander, to estate vehicle and in more recent times, to gin bar and pizza oven. Literally no other vehicle has offered so much adaptability, and what's more, often so easily and cheaply. Take delivery of a ladder chassis with engine and cab and the world is your oyster. And if that oyster broke down anywhere, really easy to fix using a spoon and some zip ties and electrical tape. Yes there's the joke about LR reliability versus that of Toyota, but even a Toyota can break down or suffer serious mechanical damage, and if in the middle of nowhere, I'd know which I'd rather fix. The design team at LR suffered two misfortunes. First they clearly can't spell, and second they clearly can't see the point. They can't spell, so mistook Defender for Discovery (for that's what the new Defender is). Second they missed the point, as the ND development was all about reclaiming the title of 'best vehicle off road@ which perhaps it has done, but which had nothing to do with the 'point' of a Defender. Frankly, most Defender owners would have only needed a few upgrades to make them carry on buying the ND. 1. Keep the looks as they are 2. Widen the vehicle (to offer more space in the cabin) and try and sort the b-pillar blind spot 3. Put in a 'proper' engine (3l diesel minimum) - with auto box option 4. Full set of locking diffs for enthusiasts, LSDs for road biased users 5. Upgrade sound proofing 6. Upgrade electrics (reliability) 7. Improved infotainment/AC/Heater/Sat Nav, without kicking the a**e out of it like the ND and turning the dash into the 4x4 equivalent of the USS Enterprise. But no, Gerry McGovern couldn't help himself and 70 years of history was ripped up overnight to be replaced by an ugly, bloated Disco 6 that's bought by soccer moms, football players and drug dealers, and as soon as it leaves the LR dealership heads straight round to the owner's favourite bodyshop to get it pimped and slammed. Tragic. Wilkes will be turning in his grave.

[@noaerrr]

Yes exactly, the landrover is a work truck not an extreme off-roader

[@australia-ukraine]

What you wrote is true. Regrettably, only a few readers can understand it, mainly due to limited knowledge about off-road and 4x4 vehicles. However, I must also offer some criticism because you forgot to mention the Toyota Land Cruiser 70 series. It's one of the best vehicles for tuning, repairability, reliability, durability, genuine off-road capabilities, expeditions, and long-range touring.

[@leangrypoulet7523]

@@australia-ukraine Completely agree on the 70, just that they're not easily available in the EU and US, so discounts two potentially huge markets.

[@chaquisa1]

@@australia-ukraine You another Cult follower !! LC are nothing until one spends another 30-40g's to make them nearly as capable as a LR

[@wb5jysman]

Is it just me? Or is Tommy killing all his reviews? Keep up the great work. Hope to see you on the trail in March. I'll be back in yalls area.

[@user-gq2vn1xj2r]

No need to simp.

[@Kahless00]

Of those two it would be the defender. If i wanted a modern solid axle off roader its gonna be the wrangler.

[@SkippyPB.]

I love the aircraft style overhead panel.

[@halimelhage4756]

I just got the Grenadier. Sick car. I absolutely love mine.

[@therasarogers1169]

I've begun to see these around here in Boise, Idaho and they look great. Just haven't seen them off-road here yet. We love our Jeeps but the Grenadier is amazing in how customizable it is. If I could afford one I'd still need to have a Jeep because of its history

[@LukeEdward]

I think this is great because it represents people who are truly cross shopping this process range. It flushes out expectations versus reality.

[@johnbertram]

In my previous 2 BMWs, the key battery was charged via induction in the key barrel. Perhaps the Grenadier uses BMW electronics in part (or a similar system) and the battery just needed a good 'charge'? I noticed the key battery on my spare key going flat after maybe a year - but it charged real quick. Am just speculating here, don't flame me!

[@The_Opinion_of_Matt]

The BMW B58 is also the engine that Toyota sourced for the new Supra.

[@hugokatz]

Actually Toyota sourced BMW, for the Supra

[@user-tz9of6nw8g]

Engine management and, most likely, the cam have been modified to change a high rev and power engine into a tow truck engine…. Smaller cam benefits engine longevity and smoothness while improving low end torque. The B58 part is mostly about block, throttle body, heads and management architecture.

[@The_Opinion_of_Matt]

@@hugokatz Just like with Subaru for the Toyota GT86, formerly Scion FR-S.

[@The_Opinion_of_Matt]

@@user-tz9of6nw8g 100% with you on the engine management. I was thinking a smaller turbo that will spool faster, while lowering engine redline to prevent overspinning the turbo. Bad things supposedly happen if the turbo vanes break the sound barrier and send a shockwave through the engine, intake and exhaust systems. If changing the engine management and turbo it would make sense to change the camshaft profile as well so that it is matched to the other changes.

[@Queensizemusic]

I’m positively STUNNED you guys didn’t vie to be the first in America to buy one for a long term review!!!!

[@TYAC_TPE_SF-Bay]

The intro music is gold. Make a playlist on TFL for road trips.

[@Land_Raver]

Just picked my Grenadier up last night. It has a few things to be sorted out already (traps water in passenger door sill) and some wiring that needs to be installed but it drives awesome. It scoots pretty good.

[@darrenhaywood9260]

Must have the old doors seals in it, newer ones already have new door seals and they are changing older vehicles current seals as they come in to the workshops. The newer seals are far more pliable and have slots in them.

[@paulelledge8977]

It's brand new, how can it have old door seals?

[@Land_Raver]

@paulelledge8977 Probably older version of the door seals. I'm going to take a look at this afternoon.

[@paulelledge8977]

@@Land_Raver The truck has been out for two months, did they change the door seals in that amount of time?

[@Land_Raver]

@@paulelledge8977 It's been out for a year in other countries.

[@loum.4377]

The Land Rover looks like it is wearing a tuxedo to go out to play in the mud. Excellent presentation.

[@volcalstone]

I've always been a fan of the older Defender over any Land Rover. This is so looking so nice!

[@dipladonic]

If you have ever towed a lot you know that turning circle is extremely important. Ineos has dropped a bollock on this one.

[@aussiebattler7789]

I am a Land Rover bloke from way back and own several different models including series 2a to disco 2 td5 freelander 2 td4 and a few others .I would not even consider a new defender for several reasons (not in any order) it will never be am off road vehicle while it is fitted with 20 inch tyres , if the battery goes flat while touring the outback it cannot be started without a technition with a lap top and landrover software , not very practical on the Canning stock route or othe overland treks where the nearest landrover dealer could be 1000ks and 4 or 5 days away ,electronics way to complicated v6 diesels not very reliable . So I will be taking posesion of my grenadier 3 litre diesel in 3 days with 183 kw(245hp) and 550 nm(406 ft/lB) and 17 inch wheels it will be a great off road tourer

[@RBPeer]

I have both, both are amazing!

[@rainerzuehlke501]

The Ineos is the Landrover Defender II. The new Landrover is a Discovery 6 - a luxury SUV with off-road capabilities. However, due to extreme amount of electronics, the air suspension, the unibody, the lack of reliability (like almost all Landrovers), the inadequate rim/wheel sizes etc. you don't want to take it off-roading in remote places or outside Europe, urban North America and Australia.

[@davereid-daly2205]

Thanks Tommy !!!

[@give_me_my_nick_back]

It's very cool they are actually even able to make it this cheap being some really low number manufacturer and still having to comply with all the regulations.

[@barneybarret6088]

That Landrover Defender is probably the best SUV ever. However it wasn't replacing an SUV it was replacing a 4x4 commercial platform. There is no doubt the new one is better off road with all it's trick software, but can you take the back body off and fit a welding station, cherry picker, make it a fire engine or stick a tray on it. So Landrover made a really good SUV which would replace the original Discovery's really well, but it's no Defender / Series replacement. Unfortunately the Grenadier is trying to be that Defender replacement, but it's not really built in a way you could remove the roof or back body to use as that commercial go anywhere platform.

[@StephenFogarty2023]

Have u seen the Ineos Quartermaster Ute that is about to b released ?

[@user-vz8qv4tg9q]

That's crazy. The Defender will not go anywhere neat where the Grenadier will. Ifs, it's, bling bling wheels, no front locker, good luck find a rear one, all plastic, no wheel travel, all plastic, the defender is a road based cross over really.

[@Jackmerius_Tacktheretrix]

The suspension is the deal breaker for me as far as the defender is concerned. That independent air suspension has no travel and lifts wheels over the tiniest bit of off camber terrain. And it doesn't have selectable lockers. Instead it has complex fancy electronics to compensate for a suspension that is clearly has no travel or articulation. And since you dont have selectable lockers, if you have a sensor failure the terrain resonse will not work, meaning no locking center diff, let alone rear diff. This means when that stiff suspension with no articulation lifts a wheel while trying to get over a small pothole or stone, its going to spin one tire and the other 3 will do nothing. It will be the equivalent of taking a skateboard with open diffs offroad. And I love thw defender but why didn't they at least use a solid rear axle and manually selectable center diff and rear diff lockers?

[@LafemmebearMusic]

Nahhhhhh have you ever been in person and watched a defender or driven it? Don’t base that on videos alone it’s not giving you enough to make an informed opinion on.

[@miyahtallulah]

Because people who buy them, don't want them. I wouldn't.

[@Jackmerius_Tacktheretrix]

@LafemmebearMusic it gives me plenty. Ive been offroading for many years. Currently I have a Disco 2. That suspension lifts wheels over the tiniest obstacles when in offroad height and has no articulation. With everything worling correctly it does a damn good job offroad. But I think it shpuld have selectable lockers so if those electronics fail, which as an owner of multiple Land Rovers, I know they will, at least you could lock the center and rear diffs to get back home. I think at the very least they should have given it a solid rear axle with front swaybar disconnect. Those electronics just compensate and make a vehicle with an otherwise bad offroad suspension setup do things it normally wouldn't be able to do, which is impressive in its own right because there are suvs with better articulation that can't go where a defender will go. But to amswer your question, I have seen a defender offroad in person but I havent driven one.

[@user-vz8qv4tg9q]

It's not matter of driving one. It's just physics.

[@Joe-kx7bl]

No articulation lol when I put KO2’s on my defender 90 the guys had to keep putting spacers on the jacks as the wheel hang was crazy.

[@unpluggedkiwi1063]

The biggest selling point for the Defender in my case is the 90. I am single and only have myself to think of, except for school holidays when I look after my granddaughter. A long wheelbase 'anything' is just way to big for my needs. The only other short wheelbase I can think of is the 2 door Wrangler, and it's very limited towing capacity rules that out.

[@MilushevGeorgi]

So good this TFL videos

[@jmvmike]

On the new Defender, is there a self under the steering column that you wack your shins into every single time you hit clutch and breaks? Like the older Defender 90 and 110’s.

[@utahagentz]

Would like some off road comps with good tires

[@stevewilcoxson7173]

I would pick the Ineos Grenadier.🤔

[@TheBTG88]

Tommy conveniently ignores the multiple LR Defender failures they had earlier.

[@peterdelamare]

It was just one.

[@TheBTG88]

@@peterdelamare Nope. Multiple failures.

[@garthlundquist3623]

Multiple failures on multiple Defenders. A total chit show

[@peterdelamare]

@@garthlundquist3623 Still wrong.

[@tysony8785]

@@garthlundquist3623one was a dealer install issue I have 15k miles on my defender 110 and it’s been perfect. Everyone knocking it should drive one and hey if it’s not for you that’s cool.

[@bobbender5858]

Good video!!

[@bradleyscarreviews]

Never heard of the B52!

[@TJDST4]

I've heard of the B52s. Great tunes. I miss music like that.

[@admranger]

Yeah, caught my ear as well. It doesn't exist, but the B58 sure does. My wife's X3 has one and it is a beast!

[@foleyu2]

Nice review. Im 100% with you on the Defender. Its our comfortable daily driver, but man it also kicks ass towing our camper and doing recrational offroading such as beach driving and trails.

[@rightwingsafetysquad9872]

But Land Rover already had the Range Rover for that. They’ve effectively turned the defender into a Range Rover with less luxury stuff.

[@StephenFogarty2023]

@@rightwingsafetysquad9872 Defender and RR are different vehicles. RR costs a lot more, and is clearly focused on luxury. Defender is less expensive, boxy styling & a utilitarian vibe…

[@rightwingsafetysquad9872]

@@StephenFogarty2023 They used to be very different vehicles. Now they’re not much more different than a regular Yukon and a Denali. Same thing, just one is more luxury. The average mid-size American or Japanese pickup is more capable off-road than a Defender now. At this point the majority of people who buy the Defender would be as well served by a Discovery. Turning the Defender into a cheaper Range Rover left a giant Ineos and G-Class shaped hole in their lineup. It used to be: Discoverry: 80% on-pavement, 20% off. Defender: 20/80. Range Rover: Off-road fit for the Queen. Now Defender is 50/50 and they’re completely missing the 20/80 vehicle. And they’ve added like 5 more vehicles all called some variant of either Range Rover or Discovery even though they’re completely different vehicles just to make sure everyone is thoroughly confused.

[@krover01]

​@@rightwingsafetysquad9872 yep! Lr keeps building different versions of the same car.

[@StephenFogarty2023]

@@rightwingsafetysquad9872 LR pushed Disco 5 upmarket, and with different ( more rounded ) styling, compared to D3 / D4. It is a great vehicle, but, it hasn’t necessarily been hugely popular ( particularly since new Defender got launched in 2020 ) Defender, with its boxy styling, is the replacement of D3 / D4. LR delivered over 110,000 new Defender last year. It’s a hugely popular vehicle… Defender is less expensive then G class Benz… Ineos have one factory with production capacity of 35,000 vehicles… Grenadier has less market appeal, as it’s a more agricultural / utilitarian vehicle v Defender. LR built new Defender to appeal to a wide range of buyers, which it has very successfully done. LR could have made new Defender to be a lot more agricultural, if they wanted to, but they purposely chose not to, as they wanted to bring to market, a vehicle that would have much more sales potential then what the Grenadier has… A niche vehicle like Grenadier, suits a small company with one factory, like Ineos. New RR Sport and New RR are selling in huge numbers for LR. These vehicles probably are more likely to compete against G class Benz. ( based on pricing & what we get offered in Australia )

[@Funlu]

It’s amazing to see all the new marques of cars coming out in recent years, as opposed to watching brands shut down and cut costs for most of my life.

[@juanzingarello4005]

I would not cross shop these two vehicles. The Defender, while I still believe its a highly capable offroader, its not the vehicle I would want to toss around like I would a previous gen Defender. It had regardless become a premium vehicle too nice to want to abuse it in this way. I would take it on light trails and maybe sand but not heavy rock crawling. The Grenadier based on what I read seems very purposeful offroader kept simple and built to be durable. I would feel more confident taking this offroading and even fording over the technologically complex Land Rover. That being said, if money wasn’t an issue, I would probably get both, have the Defender in the top of the line X trim as the daily or weekend vehicle and the Grenadier as the offroading toy.

[@failsworth655]

The Rover is a much smarter buy for someone like me who does mostly hwy and city driving. With that said I would choose the Grenadier. That thing is just too rad.

[@natehoule567]

Definitely thought we were gonna see some off road testing comparisons in this video

[@ronaldrrootiii6040]

I would like the Grenadier to fit larger tires easier and have disconnectable sway bars but other than that I'm glad that it has over twice the towing capability of a Wrangler

[@thomassanio8745]

I think it will prove to be the better Overlander than the Wrangler.

[@dennisl6198]

i was about to complain about the $40k average low price for a wrangler. But if either of these are over $80k, then there's just no way I'm gonna go into that kind of debt for a question mark. if the grenadier ends up being more reliable than a Jeep, well then, i can get a used one down the line.

[@elizabethwonders]

Awesome Review! I just drove one the other day! It’s really incredible! I love the ball steering. I got to drive it up onto the sidewalk. It went right up! Incredible! ❤️✅👍😊

[@dinukeranasinghe5561]

Good review. Defender is really for urban driving and the Grenadier is made for off-road. In that regard they can't keep with each other....both vehicles can perform in all areas, but not as well in their speciality

[@djuell01]

Ineos was supposed to be cheaper and covid etc that didn't happen so most people won't pay that much money for it now. I wish your original 4 cylinder Defender that died could have been tested a lot more, would have been awesome. I have a JLUR and I wouldn't trade it in for either of these right now.

[@paulelledge8977]

I have a 4 cylinder defender on 18" Steel wheels and BFG KO2s. I love it. Best of both worlds. Smooth and comfortable for road trips but great on the trails.

[@escdefender]

Honestly, what raised the truck price 11 grand was all the inflation taking place that’s totally out of ineos control. It was originally planned to come in at around 60 K but because of all the inflation and supply chain issues it had to be pushed up to 11K to 71 to start. It’s a bummer but it’s still an incredibly good vehicle.

[@paulelledge8977]

@@escdefender Then why hasn't the Defender gone up that much? It has gone up some but not near that much. My guess is because producing the vehicle was a little harder than they expected.

[@escdefender]

@@paulelledge8977 you have to realize that, although some of it might be underestimating the cost of the vehicle build which could be a fair assumption the majority of that is that the number of connections Ineos has in the industry versus Landover is much smaller, and priority for parts for grenadier we’re probably lower that’s making it much harder to get it out the door and raising prices.

[@VWkid4life]

Yeaaaaaa I’m super happy I got a New Defender. So good.

[@KangoV]

Can you lift the body off the Grenadier in two hours? Excellent 4x4 with a bit of luxury? The Discovery 3/4 nailed it.

[@adriansanchez9409]

You could have told me the Granadier has mice on a wheel for a motor and I would still choose that over the rover.

[@jasonstorie8740]

I’ll take solid axles over IFS any day there is no comparison off road no matter how many tricks the Land Rover has it can’t keep all four wheels on the ground on any real off road terrain.

[@jonascampelo871]

I think this should be a TFLoffroad video, btw, carefull with the sound, you need to get new anti wind sound systems.

[@robertwright5487]

On the TPMS. Most likely, when it comes on after sitting overnight or a few hours, the tire psi is low. After driving a short distance, the tires heat up, and the air expands, turning off the TPMS. Check the psi after setting for a while. If it's a hot check, add about 5 more psi.

[@richfarfugnuven6308]

Will you immediately pop 2 tires if you take the Defender offroad, Tommy? 😂

[@nba_bnxn]

Physical buttons are always nice

[@terrencesoltz8943]

I think the lack of a traditional gauge cluster on the Grenadier might be a deal breaker for me, assuming I could afford an $80k vehicle in the first place.

[@michaelsharman7176]

Oddly Ineos is a privately owned chemical company in the UK. Surprising they wanted to build this 4 x 4 in limited volumes

[@TheEulerID]

It was a personal project by the owner, Jim Ratcliffe, who really didn't like the direction being taken by the new Land Rover. When you are worth an estimated $20.3bn, then I guess you can afford vanity projects, although Ratcliffe is a self-made individual who takes business seriously, so he was going to do it properly, and that is what it appears he did. It was going to be made in Wales, but Mercedes-Benz made him an offer he couldn't refuse to buy a state-of-the-art car factory in Hambach, France that they wanted to dispose of, complete with trained workforce. Reputedly about £650m has been sunk into the project so far.

[@miyahtallulah]

Same reason he bought 25% of Manchester United. Because he can.

[@midlandgeordie]

By a Brexiteer in France!

[@paulsharp8802]

A friend of mine ha s a 2022 m5 . At about 20000 km it needed 18 thousand dollars of work on the turbos. Luckily it was under warranty. I sed to him when he bought it that he was nuts. After he 18 thousand dollars warranty work . He is getting rid of it just before he warranty is up.

[@SaltShack]

And in the Land Rover you apparently need an endless supply of spare tires if you hit the rocks. I think I saw that on a review somewhere, wink wink, nudge nudge. Seriously comparing these two cars isn’t very useful, interesting but they are not for the same driver. Ineos can go off road , hard, day after day and the Defender occasionally and moderately, TFL proved that. Watch Dirtbox Overland’s Review of the Grenadier to see what it’s truly all about.

[@nickdattner8680]

One of them is a true off roader. I spend a lot of time in the bush and I never see a Defender.

[@hollisterman06]

My 2011 Edge had an alarm you could set if you went over the speed limit

[@fields1]

I wish INEOS would bump up the power to 382-400HP like the B58 outputs in the BMW lineup. There’s no reason such a heavy beast has such little power. For towing and passing performance the extra get up would sure be nice.

[@petermenzies1714]

Going to the mall or on road trips with friends or light off-road the Defender wins hands down & drives like a high-end car with low profile tyres, and the most sophisticated traction control system and air suspension - wow it is great! Going where there are no real roads, tyres do get shredded, and where you really need robustness & simplicity & options to fix it yourself to get you there or home it's got to be a Grenadier, an Old Land Rover Defender ( I own a Defender 110 CSW, S11A Airportable and Toyota) or 70 series Toyota Land Cruiser! I am a Land Rover man but value simplicity, maintainability & reliability over Gismos which won't work & simply cannot be repaired or made to work when stuck in 3 feet of dirty water.

[@paulanson6731]

Great video, interesting comparison. There have been comments on the INEOS about slightly offset pedals being uncomfortable on long drives. Was that apparent? BTW INEOS most people in UK pronounce it IN-EE-HOS

[@struancochrane753]

The off set foot pedals are only an issue in the RHD models as the exhaust travels through that side of the car. So in the USA and other LHD countries it should be fine. A universal issue with the Ineos G, regardless of driver side, is that it's steering isn't self centering. I am sure they will iron out a lot of their issues with the 2nd generation. For me it is worth waiting for that, whenever it may come.

[@sumitsrivastavau4410]

I am concerned with the cylindrical seat belt holders which come out from the side. In case of a crash what are the chances for ur head crashing sideways into them?

[@shekharmoona544]

That price hike is what deterred me.

[@J.Young808]

Same here, I payed the $450 for a reservation and would’ve considered it around $50k but not starting at $77k. I didn’t keep up with the e-mails and found my deposit retuned to me since I didn’t reserve one within the period. Quite nice of you them since I had completely forgotten about it being 3 years and all.

[@beam3250]

I like the Grenadier. New Defender drivers are that sort of golf playing dentist, without roots in offroading. Like most of the G wagon owners i know. So no choise for me

[@klarie6805]

There is one thingie.. the Ingenium Engine has a few design faults. First of all its the drive chain. 100.000 mls and it need to be replaced.. What is a quite costly topic. I had it on the 2 litre ingenium,.. and had quite to wait a long time until spare parts arrived. Also if you think about air suspension? - It might be a smooth ride BUT.. -. think of failures. . repairing this in the middle of nowhere is impossible. The Grenadier uses Eibach Suspension system.. Robust and reliable.. My opinion . if you need a car mostly on road downtown with a bit of space - and you can bear the cost.. If you go really off road and do overlanding.. then its Grenadier. BTW None of both is a rock cat like Jeep. If you want to do trails for a weekend you need short wheel base, a lift, things like that. Ineos might release a short wheel base Grenadier that could compete to Jeep Wrangler in this topic. But the current version is mainly an overlanding and adventure vehicle. Good storage and towing capability. Its a proper utility. I use mine in a Diesel version in Germany since now October 22. On the road on motorway, snow, ice, wet meadows, unpaved and ungravelled forest paths with potholes, puddles, mud. .. Grenadier manages all of my requirements.

[@phlfly10]

cargo 34 cu f vs 31 cu f . how does it feel it's really bigger in Land Rover vs Ineos?

[@MrTimothymartin]

How did you get the steel wheels with the six cylinder?

[@escdefender]

They’re actually 20 inch alloy wheels that look like the steel ones, proof, yet again that the new defender is actually a pretender! Grenadier comes to 17 inch steel wheels standard, which is exactly what you want !

[@tysony8785]

I do wish you could get 17” wheels with the Defender and the larger engines. I have 19” on mine and it’s limiting as far as tire choice. Either have to go up to 20” wheels or live with Goodyear

[@brent042081]

I might trade my Rubicon Recon for grenadier..

[@anthonymrskipt9252]

I have not owned either, but have driven and considered (currently looking at Grendadier) and they are quite different. The Defender has a great design and was great on the road, but seemed to be really meant for a highway and dirt road-type trip. The Grenadier felt very solid driving fairly quickly down a rutted dirt road. Still hoping to try it in a more truly off-road environment. I think it is more a Land Cruiser competitor rather than the new Defender. I have a Wrangler and would likely keep both as I view the Wrangler (lifted with 35s) as far more off-road capable, but the Grenadier would be perfect for a highway trip that ends in a fairly rough or technical road to get to truly away - with the ability to carry everything you’d need for at least a few days off grid. The Alu-Cab top seems like it could actually make the Grenadier an extremely appealing overlander. The Defender was a tractor and now it’s a Discovery (which, itself, used to be a tractor). The Grenadier is not a tractor, but it does seem quite nice and probably represents a unique offering if it’s what you want.

[@nunyabidness3075]

When we had two vehicles, an old land cruiser was a great car for me. We now only have one car. The defender has enough comfort for everyday and cross country and unimproved road use for camping and canoeing. Biggest issue with Defender is low volume means limited choice for accessories. The other issue I’m finding with JLR is the dealers. I’m not sure they are as bad as BMW, I’m souring on my dealer as I go in for scheduled maintenance. Frankly, they’ve been trained to exist in the JLR world of yesterday, and if JLR wants to break out, they are going to have to figure out how to nudge the dealers out of the lease cycle mindset. The tax rule changes will otherwise bury them anyways.

[@StephenFogarty2023]

LR offer a huge range of factory supplied accessories for Defender Plus A lot more is now available via aftermarket companies..

[@nunyabidness3075]

@@StephenFogarty2023 Lol, not in USA. Compared to Toyota or jeep there is very little competition. Last I checked, Yakima still didn’t even have Defender attachments. They are one of the two biggest roof systems in the US along with Thule. Looking for tree bars was similarly disappointing. There’s only a few choices, and so very little less expensive options.

[@StephenFogarty2023]

@@nunyabidness3075 Well That’s a shame I’m surprised that Yakima & Thule have not yet released items to suit Defender.. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@nunyabidness3075]

@@StephenFogarty2023 Thule did in 2022 I believe. Yakima has been playing hardball demanding JLR supply a test vehicle.

[@peterj5751]

I love how with all cars now the buyer seems to be the bug tester as well. It would be nice if car manufacturers resolved these software bugs before sending them to customers.

[@oscartrain1151]

Land Rover just needs to improve load and tow capacity a little, especially on the 130. They could do with a rear suspension mod to increase rear articulation a bit and improve off road stability. Some kind of front locker would be a nice option; and if they could get round to a high top van version (Sprinter walk in and stand up style). And of course a 16" wheel option. Basically a very off road capable work and overland platform then perfect.

[@stevekniess3665]

Been waiting for this and I don't have time to watch it right now😢

[@andrewjones-productions]

To be honest, I think Land Rover have more to fear from the new Prado (Land Cruiser in the USA) than the Grenadier. Also, the Lexus GX too for that matter with its V6 engine. The Prado is going to be sold in far more countries than the Grenadier and is less of a niche product. If one narrows down the market to overlanders and the like, then yes, the Grenadier will be more of a market threat perhaps, but Land Rover have failed miserably thus far to capture that market anyway. The toss up in places like South Africa or Australia is whether the Grenadier can capture the market from the new Land Cruiser 70 (Troopy and the like). I do know and acknowledge that there are those who do use the Defender in those countries. In the USA, you have far more options also. I am looking at it globally.

[@LivingRetirement]

Both are really great vehicles!!

[@shekharmoona544]

How's the footwell? Some people complain about comfort in the footwell area on the front passenger side.

[@richardchandler6976]

Only on Right hand drive

[@GordonGray-gz8ql]

It an apples and oranges comparison really. Although the initial concept of the Grenadier was to replace the work truck Defender it really has moved beyond that and created a very capable 4x4 for the well healed. It was to hit the market in the $50K area, missed by a long shot. The Defender is a road vehicle capable of a bit of off road wandering. Early days but I think where the Grenadier will shine is, due to the analog approach, is after warranty when it's a few years old. It will be 10-15 years before a major overhaul is required. The Defender wont last 15 years. Having owned 4 RR's and 2 RR Sports, you don't want to own them out of warranty unless you have deep pockets. Not because they aren't reliable, stuff wears and corrodes quickly..

[@WestUCoog]

Plastic car vs steel truck. That's how I view it. Nice review Tommy.

[@NAHolmesHeath1]

The Defender is actually made from corrosion resistant aluminum.

[@escdefender]

@@NAHolmesHeath1 but the plastic defender has no steel bumpers, and no ability to keep moving if you bump that front bumper into any sort of a rock, as it will pierce the intercoolers, which are located directly behind the plastic bumper. Anyone who’s ever offroaded who takes a 14 second glance at that thing knows it cannot withstand any abuse on the trail.

[@rose415]

Another great video

[@petermatusov3055]

That comparison works for "lifestyle" people who buy vehicles for the "cool factor" but don't really use them for their [assumed] purposes. There's no denying that Land Rover made a phenomenal 4WD platform with LR3/4, and probably made it better in the Defender. However, it all comes to a grinding fault when the tree branch snags off an air suspension hose, or ABS sensor wire. Land Rovers don't really even need to leave pavement to need a flatbed - our LR4 had spent more time and miles on the back of the tow truck than the rest of my jeeps and Land Rovers combined. The INEOS did what Land Rover should have done - bring back a square box on solid axles, relatively underpowered so the engine torque doesn't kill the rest of the drivetrain. The price point favors the Grenadier as well, for people who really know their market.

[@chrisowen2763]

Judging from the people I know who either now own a Grenadier or are interested in owning one, I’d say that it’s more of a Wrangler replacement than a G-Wagen replacement.

[@DD-dj4jr]

New GX550 will be a bigger Defender competitor

[@jamesmccreery250]

LOL, this has been the joke for years, no Rover is reliable enough to even be compared to any Toyota.

[@richfarfugnuven6308]

It should be pretty good offroad as well...

[@guentherwilke2055]

The GX/LC250 will be a formidable alternative for Defender (and probably Disco) customers. I wonder if the power upgrade available on the Tundra/Sequoia will eventually show up on the GX.

[@krover01]

​@@jamesmccreery250 if only reliability was the only thing that mattered. Toyota and lexus may make reliable cars, but they're boring as hell. The 80 series cruiser was the last cool truck Toyota made.

[@user-cg7cc7zj3e]

lol you guys went through like what three defenders? I'll take the retro one.

[@LafemmebearMusic]

Lexus gx550 that’s what I’m waiting for literally saving money for it now. 😊

[@andrewg9236]

Watch Tedward he's on his third Lexus 😅😅

[@flo-tourscorrecaminos4636]

I had to made the decision to buy the grenadier or the defender…. In the end the grenadier was to loud, to thirsty and to expensive ( 94.000€ vs 80.500€ for the defender) and the second row is so much more comfy for my kids … why ineos gave the grenadier an almost rectangular sitting position, in a vehicle that s made for traveling ?!? I really hope the next grenadier will be better in this perspective. Why are aren’t the 18” steel wheels available in the us? My defender has the recovery points and the 18” steel wheels….. an i have 14.000€ to spend on the vehicle and traveling !