Should Medical Staff Have Final SAY | Or Riders?

Join the gang
/ johnnyhopper
Join this channel to get access to Comment perks:
/ @johnny_hopper
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Intro
SOB: / hopper875

[@nickcollins1528]

Medical professionals should have the final say in all situations with on track incidents. Also all concrete near the track should be padded. Its a sanction racing event it should be in their contracts

[@eaglemx45]

In 22’ When I broke my pelvis,hip and back in same way forkner crashed I couldn’t walk and was in shock and sat on a lawn chair for 6hrs watching my friends race. I almost blacked out. With that said I wasn’t in my right mind I chose to do that and could have been bleeding internally the entire time. I needed someone to step in and say no you’re going to the hospital now! Then once I got into treatment I was so far behind the trauma the pain was immeasurable. Learned a lot from that one.

[@SLAYJUCE]

when i broke my pelvis the medics dropped me on a rock cliff, strapped to a back board lol

[@db1988]

Ya big difference between some dude riding and pro athlete who has made the decision that a dream is worth dying for. You couldn't walk. How did you get off the track? The people that got you off. The track should have been more concerned. We're talking about forcing someone to be tied down on a backboard. It's a big difference from your friend. Seeing you wad yourself and let you sit in a chair while you're looking half concussed all day. Sounds like you need some better friends not to tie Random professionals down on a backboard with a neck brace

[@Natedoc808]

As a Doctor of Physical Therapy who worked in pro sports on the sidelines, worked in level 1 trauma centers, having had to collar and spine board injured athletes, and having had to hold my friends in spinal precautions after moto crashes on more than one occasion and they are in no man’s land when they wake up, trying to get up and move and thrash because they are completely out of it. Spine board should be SOP in moto as it is in other sports. If a rider is knocked out, they wouldn’t be allowed to sign the surgical consent forms as they aren’t in a mental state to provide informed and understood consent, so that argument/comparison is out. If someone is placed in a collar, you cannot safely get them up if they have a cervical spine injury due to the traction that any lifting points (under the arms like they carried forkner is the worst) create on the spinal cord, the dura, and the ligaments which can shift bony fragments which slice and pierce the spinal cord. SOP: if you suspect spinal injury at any level, hard collar and spine board. Have the riders sign the consent at the beginning of the season to be collared and spine boarded as SOP if there is suspicion of spinal injury- end of story. They don’t need a fine or anything like that, they need proper trackside medical care and that’s on Astars for blowing it.

[@angel387mx]

Totally agree.

[@happycampers6592]

As a retired professional firefighter, I have a little knowledge about this. Every emergency medical service will have protocols/SOPs/guidelines in place that should cover just about any incident. In most cases, if the patient is coherent (alert and oriented to person, place and time) and there is no obvious, life-threatening issue, then they are free to make their on decisions regarding treatment. However, the importance of appropriate interventions should be strongly conveyed to the patient, employing friends or family of the patient, if necessary, to help sway the patient. We probably all agree that Forkner should have been placed on a backboard, with all c-spine protection measures in place. However, if a patient is adamant and a first responder does not honor their wishes regarding treatment and/or transport, then the caregiver opens themselves up to legal repercussions. None of us were on scene and know what the conversation was like, so...

[@andyanderson9051]

Well put, I agree as previous paramedic, ER RN, and Ortho NP. I will add that many protocols don’t mandate spinal package I think theory is that if there was going to be spinal injury it would have already happened from the injury. If patient awake and there is issue pain will provoke body to self splint. Having a scapula fracture in past it hurt to lean against or on any hard surface so that may have played a part.

[@andyanderson9051]

Johnny hopper I agree that the AMA should have a clause that does not let riders refuse care i also say AMA assumes cost of workup and treatment

[@andyanderson9051]

Maybe not ama but smx organization

[@kurtheidelbach]

@@andyanderson9051 LOL there are basic patient medical care provider rights for everyone for a reason.

[@darrelflint]

Great discussion! I am a firm believer in personal rights however, If you have a concussion you are not capable of making an informed decision. For the sake of precaution, take them off on a backboard/head restraint then after further evaluation let them or their representatives make the decision to decline medical advice.

[@andystreet339]

Thanks Hopper for all the content

[@TB-ModelRR]

Backboards are the enemy of foolish pride. 😂 this is why I don't mind getting older. The ignorance just goes away. It's great!

[@db1988]

Have any of u ever been straped to a back board with a neck brace it sucks it's not comfortable.

[@db1988]

If someone is willing to die for what they love , who is someone else to take that away from them

[@TB-ModelRR]

@db1988 yes. And it was to prevent further injury because I could not get up. Couldn't straighten my legs out. But yeah, cover the topic like a blanket as if all injuries are the same. All it is is prevention of further injury. Has nothing to do with anything else. . Silly that pride would be the downfall here. But, this is all hypothetical in relation to Forkner.

[@SB-wu9mk]

Austin said himself that he was out for 4 or 5 minutes. There is absolutely no way they could have thought he was in his right mind after that. I guess they wouldn't want him to lash out and cause more damage if they tried to tie him on the board. It's tough dealing with people that aren't in their right mind, so glad it wasn't worse!

[@DGW2013]

I wouldn't be surprised if Law Enforcement steps in... 😮

[@PETERLOCHEADYZ250FX]

I don't even know why its a debate. Impact like that is a no brainer. Safety first?

[@Blacksheep-ik7gx]

I think in this particular scenario there wasn’t enough thought put into his state of mind. He was probably extremely dazed and not fully “there” mentally due to the impact he took. As a medical professional it is your job to protect your patient from themselves sometimes. If he is not GCS 15 then he does not need to be making his own medical decisions at that point. Walking with a spinal injury can cause major injury especially when you have already broken vertebrae. I am not impressed with alpine stars response to this. I believe he even stated he does not remember any of this which proves that he was not in a normal state of consciousness.

[@RadioReprised]

This is a non issue...the Medics must have the ability to make the call on the grounds of the Track. Once you are safely removed from there if you STILL demand to be released a designated member of your Team can ask you or make the call himself as to if you are Transported to a Hospital. Liability on scene for the host is protected and the Individual's Rights are still intact. Win Win.

[@peacefulwarrior4078]

Give the riders a choice if they feel like they can get up and walk off the track under their own power. #1 safely Back boarded off by a medically certified trauma team #2 have the riders sign a insurance waiver stating that if they elect to walk off that THE RIDER IS THEN SOLELY RESPONCIBLE if any serious injury arises and worsens to where it then becomes a permanent injury.

[@Leland387]

When I seen him walking I was yelling to the TV saying "WTF are you doing that's not normal at all they never do that"

[@lakeloon]

Saw

[@Leland387]

@@lakeloon come on who cares really that's what you got out of what I said? Seen/saw

[@saltybmxer6977]

@@Leland387this is why America isn’t what it once was. Keep lowering standards and you end up with a bunch of DEI hires and inferior product.

[@Skidderoperator]

AMA wants to look good. Walk it off, or your OUT.

[@Leland387]

@@Skidderoperator i doubt that's the kind of look they was going for, it wasn't a good look for the sport him getting up, especially people who have rode and know how wrecks far less then that can be serious.

[@cliftonpfleger9525]

A signed Contract by all Riders allowing the Medical Team to make their expertise decisions based on the facts and all Manufactures must honor without any threats or law suits the medical team just like any accident or military organization. Yes, its a Business BUT human life is not defined in a US Dollar, so accept this fact and move onwards.

[@datapusher-]

I think in an organization like the AMA and the contracted medical staff, it would be good for the RIDER and their own liability to have some sort of protocol. Letting a guy who was passed out for 5 minutes make medical decisions is INSANE! Also... how about putting some DIRT or something else down on side of the tracks!?!?!!?

[@datapusher-]

I know we cant bubble wrap life, but falling on concrete slabs (like webb in this video, or forkner) just looks insane.

[@jaysonsorensen594]

What do you want them to do if he says no? You want the medical staff to hold him down? Force him into a backboard? They told him their suggestions and he said no. Move on instead of being butthurt for him

[@SLAYJUCE]

that sand track in Quesnel is sick haha i came off the track coughing blood ! tucked the front.

[@patd4u2]

Two things I do not agree with, first one was they did not red flag the race, he was knocked out on the side of the track, I wonder why? Second, they should've put him on a stretcher, no if ands or butts about it. My brutal opinion, medical team incompetence.

[@VWAPChopra]

Three words, standard of care. If these medical providers don't practice with the standard of care, they open themselves to malpractice. Feld can make these athletes sign a waiver agreeing to adhere to the medical professionals treatment, problem solved.

[@CHIEFMOTORSPORTS]

RIDER ! - THIS ISNT FOOTBALL

[@saltybmxer6977]

Stop yelling !

[@JbFixCorleone]

Look at formula 1 you are not allowed to get out of the car if a accident happened if you do.. you get fined.. that’s the way to go.. the riders can do what they want but have to accept the fine

[@MichaelAMyers1957]

Riders should have to sign medical wavers that state, if theyre told to get on the board and don't, all liability is on themselves. If they walk off and end up making things worse, they cant turn around and blame the medics or sue anyone from the medics, ama, feld, whoever. Back in 2017, i crashed and KOd myself pretty bad. Was in hospital for almost 4 days. After about 2 days, i was sick of it and wanted to leave, but they told me once i sign off that im leaving on my own, the insurance would NOT cover anything. Thats how it should be for riders. You can't just froce them to do something, but at the same time, need to make sure that if they choose to not listen to the medics, all liability is on themselves

[@kurtheidelbach]

LOL...Backboards aren't even used in the field that much anymore. Let alone there are basic medical rights in place for the patient and medical care provider for a reason.

[@db1988]

I cant im so blown away by how many think that its ok to make someone be strapped down to a back board with a neck brace These guys are put on a pedestal for their grit and determination. Let me see someone tell Cameron mccadoo. He has to get on a backboard when he doesn't want too.

[@db1988]

These guys are professional athletes. They have the right to decide if they're last time. They're gonna be seen on a track is then being carted off on a board

[@shredmas]

This will be an unpopular opinion. I think SX tracks are too dangerous. I think they should all be made of well watered sand with just sand rollers. I know everyone want to see people flying 100' in the air and you will loose some of the big crowds, maybe tv. But in the beginning MX was for the riders not TV. When it's all about the viewers it's going to be dangerous because that is what attracts them.

[@jmac636]

AMA makes you sign consent forms and medical release forms to release liability. Not really much to debate here. It is always left up to the medical crews discretion whether or not to put the rider on a backboard. They are down there talking to the rider. Sometimes they make bad judgments, that is all.

[@jaysonsorensen594]

It just something for talking heads to cry about. Riders know this is dangerous. He made a decision against the advice of medical staff. It not any different then your lawyer giving you advice and you going against it

[@Benders25]

It doesn't matter what any of us think it's illegal to help somebody or make them get on a backboard if they say they don't want to. For instance if you have a bullet watched in your neck and you're squirting blood out the side of your neck you refuse medical treatment legally nobody can help you, now if you pass out then at that point you can legally help the person because they're unconscious. So I have a feeling that forkner told them he wants to get up and walk they cannot legally make him do anything other than what he just told them

[@motofevermedia1]

I dont think most people realize that Forkner was the one eanting to walk off. All i keep gearing is "fire all the alpinstar guys, poor Austin" "cant believe they made/let him walk"

[@db1988]

If they do what your saying every one will be getting strapped to a board every time they barely hit the ground.

[@jmanab5438]

Probably a good call. Doubt any of these guys would refuse medical assistance or advice. They hit the ground harder then most athletes. Everytime ive woken up on a stretcher in an ambulance im so confused and need people to explain what happened....had some bad seizures and just dropped while out in the mountains riding. Fractured 3 lower vertebrae and back rippin no back problems

[@db1988]

What are we gonna do next hit? People with the paddles that have DNR and bring them back to life. Because the professional doctor thinks you can be saved and live longer

[@Sh1tstir]

I think what alot of people miss here is the potential for injury, and that potential needs to be treated because without proper medical diagnosis and scans you just don't know, the severity or the extent of the injuries. Hind site is wonderful and Faukner got away with it, but what if he doesn't and from reports his broken vertebrae moves while sitting in the back of the mule unsupported and hes now paralysed what then.......... no insurance company is going to cover you because you refused medical advice, you can't claim damages because once again you refused medical advice so your life is essentialy ruined. There is no scenario here that didn't warrant a back board and full immobilisation here and the AMA/Felt to impose on riders that medical advice needs to be taken. Always bet on the worst case and hope for the best case in these situations. How many riders have taken a hit in practice or qualifying to be concussed then go race the main and put not only themselves at risk but every rider around them? What happens if that rider causes a fatalitie worst case?

[@Fips33ktm]

Nice Video.

[@db1988]

What if they tell someone they have to get on the board but they need to get points because in battle for championship in the end its determined they are 100 % fine and they lose the championship!!! its not your place or anyone else's to make that decision for someone that has dedicated there entire life and maybe they are willing to die for a dream. who the hell are u to make that decision for a professional athlete. 🤦 This makes me sick. What do you wanna do next? Take away free will. Some people are prepared to die for what they love. Who the hell is anyone to take that away!!!!

[@motobrohs2774]

medical staff ...........

[@gregmulfort9577]

It should be up to the racer. Maybe every season they can sign a voluntary consent, under clear mind, that they heed their medical freedom to Alpinestar medical if they hit the ground. Band this is optional agreement. For coach to say any time you hit the ground you're under full control of Alpinestars?? That's asinine. So a simple tip over in a corner? Stop and wait for a medic to clear you??? Go multiple laps down??? This would determine every single championship. And don't roll your eyes and say not tip overs... Ok well exactly at WHAT point are the medics in full control? WHO determines that? What exact criteria are they using to end someone's championship? Are they using instant replay or just maybe that a medic who is not trained in this saw something.. but maybe not for another guy in a different patt of the track... In real time during a race? What about all the gray area in this? What if they aren't knocked out but might have hit their head or whiplashed their head? What about when tomac cartwheeled in a rhythm at the triple crown last year and popped right up? There is ZERO doubt that there will be instances where a rider gets stopped for a lesser crash and in same season a competitor doesn't get stopped for a worse crash and that would have massive championship implications, all due to medics calls on the field. It would be logistically impossible to do this. And championships would be determined by this year one. You think these medics see everything all the time and have the split second decisions making skills to give a real time diagnosis in that moment? It'd be a total judgement call every time. Sure easy on the worst case scenarios like Forkner, but there will be a LOT of grey area and if you think refs make bad calls in football, you haven't seen anything yet. The whole championship would be a complete joke because it'd all be determined by medics. Jett has hit the ground numerous times, twice alone in the last main event! You think he should have got stopped by the medic to be cleared to keep racing??? What's the test for that? If he wasn't knocked out a doctor can't diagnose a concussion in seconds, they have full on tests for that which take longer than a race! That one race Jett would have been out of the championship because he would have finished a couple laps down at least. This is also assuming that a doctor clearly see every crash for each of the 22 riders on the track to see if they hit their head or whatever. It's an asinine proposal that hasn't been thought through whatsoever what that policy would actually involve and how you'd do it logistically and ALL the ramifications from such a policy. For coach to keep referring to the Forkner crash that medics wouldn't have got sued.. yeah sure maybe not in that worst case scenario!! But there will be alot tougher calls where they will get sued and ruin championships and these are people's livelihoods snd retirements yoyre affecting with a judgement call from a medic who isn't trained to diagnose in seconds and may or may not have even seen it. Its so arrogant and ignorant for coach to use the Forkner crash ad the example and not consider all the borderline cases which will be most of them. You can say they're the monkey in the circus, but when the championship is illegitimate because every one will be determined by medics, you'll have no circus because it'll be a joke. You're not thinking of the consequences

[@CoachRobbBeams]

Appreciate your feedback! I was in no way insinuating that if you hit the ground, you are in the hands of the medics, only to these types of scenarios. Like discussed during the show, there is no way to apply a blanket cover to every situation; however, there needs to be some level of guidelines was the message I was attempting to convey. If it was received in any other light, that was NOT the intention. Thank you for taking the time to both watch and comment!

[@gregmulfort9577]

@@CoachRobbBeams I'm sorry for the overly aggressive comment, I didn't mean to call you ignorant. I guess I went off and kept going. We are all passionate about this sport. I think it'd be possible to have a small electronic on top of every rider's helmet that reads g forces and if it exceeds the level they determine through testing, it turns a light on the device and rider gets black flagged. All good, sorry I came in hot. Enjoy Daytona

[@jaysonsorensen594]

All you guys saying they should have forced him into the board? How does that work? If he says no are you saying they hold him down and tie him to the board? Is that really a better way to go about it? Forcing him down while he fights it? Im sure that would go over well

[@CoachRobbBeams]

We discussed this during the video. Yes, he should have been put the board as a precaution. Erring on the side of caution can't be a bad thing at the end of the day.

[@jaysonsorensen594]

How? If he didn't want to go on the board. You can keep saying he should have been on it, but you haven't mentioned how. You want them to wrestle him onto it? Against his will? Sit there for 30 min arguing about it not knowing the full extent of his injuries? Where did you get your medical license? Why should I listen to what you said vs the people on the ground who know all the facts and have actual medical knowledge?

[@jaysonsorensen594]

@CoachRobbBeams even if you had in his contract that you could fine him if he didn't listen. That doesn't matter. I bet you the pride of walking off means more to them then the fine. I'm not even sure you can legally force someone to get medical services. The only way to get him on a backboard would be to hold him down against his will and force him on it. Is your opinion that is a better option then what the medical staff did?

[@db1988]

You dont have to sign a form they want u to sign the form to cover them. Tbis is how people lie to you your entire life. Ok you want to check out u have to sign this. No we want you to sign this.

[@richardupyurass2379]

Medic…. For sure. All precautions should be taken.

[@db1988]

You guys planned tk talk about thisbut dont loook up what people right are and what is the Protocol is diffrent from having to do something

[@db1988]

I live in a dumb ass state where they make u wear seat belt but dont have to wear a helmet on a street bike. Bet its ok with all the Democrats that your hit with a 100 $ fine first offense not wearing a seat belt

[@jaysonsorensen594]

They would win if they got sued. Cause that the law. Im sorry that your butthurt about it but that an asanine statment you cant force people to have medical treatment. If they forced him onto that board against his will they would lose their license and be sued into oblivion.

[@CoachRobbBeams]

True, you can't force anyone. But look at Brian who is now paralyzed because extra precaution wasn't taken. How do we keep something like that happening again? In my opinion, err on the side of caution. Thoughts?

[@jaysonsorensen594]

@CoachRobbBeams I'd like to know what precautions would have changed anything? Are you saying you understand the situation better then the medical personnel that work for the track? The only way to have got him on that backboard would be to force him. Do you think forcing him onto that backboard would have been a better outcome and put less stress on his body vs just keeping him calm and doing what they could? Now you could fine him after, but unless it's in his contract, you can't fine someone for making a medical decision for themselves. I will side with the medical personnel who have the full knowledge of what was going on vs some guy who just watched a video and thinks he knows better than the people on the ground.

[@db1988]

Listen to you guys, you need someone to force their expertise. It's a free country foolsomebody that is more apt to listen to medical advice will probably do so in that situation. Someone that wouldn't want that Extra help would typically refuse, so a who are you to force your way to force your way on someone. It's like a parent. Yes, that's why we become adults. To make our own decisions, that's the problem. Everybody wants to blame everybody else in the end. If you get hurt, you can't walk again because you decided to walk. That's your f n problem The entire issue with this country In the end you have to man up for your own decisions

[@CHIEFMOTORSPORTS]

DOESNT MATTER, THIS IS AMERICA, WE ARE FREE TO SUCCEED AND FREE TO FAIL.

[@saltybmxer6977]

Why are you yelling ?

[@frankdobs]

@@saltybmxer6977Cause he never looked in the mirror and noticed he is looking a fool.

[@Ozfreerider_adventures]

Omg this is so dumb 🤦‍♂️. Enforcing a FINE on a ride for not obeying medical advice … how will a fine deter someone whose just had a concussion! They won’t give a fuck about that and therefore it leaves the issue back at square 1 . Man Jonny I like your videos but you have some stupid takes on things at times . And what if a rider is on track with spinal fractures and a broken arm , the medical staff see him holding his arm and think oh that’s all the issue is let’s drag him off the track ? Once again , 🤦‍♂️. Think a bit deeper guys .

[@CoachRobbBeams]

We were in deep; however, there is no way to cover every situation with one answer. There has to be some level of decisions that have to be enforced and they should always err on the side of caution. Appreciate your feedback!

[@Ozfreerider_adventures]

@@CoachRobbBeams definitely air on side of caution o agree . They should do everything in their power to convo and injured rider to accept care and past that , if they exhaust every avenue to get someone like forkner on a spinal board and can’t , just let his team or family also try and if they can’t they just have to accept his decision , but fining someone in that situation will have literally no positive outcome for a rider bit migh just take even more money from already struggling mid and low tier riders