Should Superheroes Kill?

Should superheroes kill? Why is it that so many superheroes are becoming murderers? Micah sits down with Human Shield writer Michael Octavius to discuss this strange behavior with modern writers, and why it's no good.
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[@vinzingerakaelotakuakatheweebp]

If the superheroes are already established with a code to never kill. Then no.

[@storba3860]

Unless it's a one off. Like the What If where Spiderman ends up dying in a police shoot out because he killed all of his villains. I thought that was a pretty cool concept.

[@paulofevilbathrobes4627]

I feel that one of the big problems when a lot of superheroes start killing is the uncomfortable levels of malice I read from the actions

[@briangilmartin662]

I suspect a big reason a lot of writers have superheroes killing people is because they want easy answers to otherwise complex problems. Not every problem can be solved by brute force and sometimes yes, you DO have to actually talk to those you might deem an "undesirable" in order to find the most efficient and, ultimately, humane solution

[@paulberry5750]

Captain Cold or Cat Women? A non lethal jewel thief I wouldn't kill. Joker, Green Goblin, Dr Doom? Serial Killers or Genocidal would be world conqueror? Haha, you're not getting a second chance.

[@MrDman21]

The big homie Micah Curtis!

[@SethAurelius94]

Depends on the hero. If it's a classic hero no. If it's an antihero like punisher then yeah absolutely. Now if a classic hero accidentally killed someone that could make an interesting arc but it definitely shouldn't be a regular occourance.

[@146zigzag3]

Remember that Superman technically kills Doomsday when he himself dies. Sometimes it's what had to be done.

[@paulberry5750]

There was also an arc where Supes had to kill another Kryptonian exile from the Phantom Zone. The guilt made Clark Kent leave Earth for a while. @@146zigzag3

[@shawnboahene5231]

@@146zigzag3I think that also goes into the decision. It’s a matter of circumstance. Is the hero, city, or planet going to die if I don’t take this guy out? The hero should try to find a way to avoid that, but if they can’t, it’s justifiable. However, if it’s a judgement issue, “I find x irredeemable therefore, I will kill them and be done with it.” That’s crossing the line into evil territory

[@henrygambles3652]

Yeah I’m OK with classic superheroes killing if A. The Circumstances are absolutely dire and there is no other option and B. If the Hero is not like Batman or Daredevil and have a very strong “Thou Shall not Kill!” Stance! Invincible I think made the best case for whether or not superheroes should kill, Mark is not an Anti Hero and only kills in the case of desperation!

[@TheSillyDragonfly]

I'm partially with batman on this; killing is off the table. Unless you're a villain like the joker. If you take life and think it's funny, and cannot by any logical means be rehabilitated, then you cannot remain a threat to society. Period. Other than that, murder becomes personal, and superheroes that walk that path become evil superman

[@henrygambles3652]

If the heroes are established with a “thou shall not kill” code, then no! I understand exceptions like Superman killing Doomsday in the death of Superman or Iron Man killing Mallen in Extremis but those are exceptions not the norm.

[@alexferrana3979]

I mean, DOomsday is an immortal murder machine, so it's not even an actual kill.

[@dwayneasher6765]

To me only antiheros can kill but not normal heros

[@ggameboy10]

Only as a last resort/ cant be resonable contained tyoe of deal.

[@nowlwane9623]

Heroes should decide if a victim or villain or teammate should die. Because that’s where you know the hero is being pushed to the limit.

[@JcgLounge]

For me it depends on the character in question. Batman and Spider-Man? No way. I don’t enjoy seeing them kill because those are characters who specifically set a standard that no matter what, they won’t cross the line of taking another life. Not to mention they witnessed first hand what revenge can do to a man. Even tho villains like Joker for Batman and Green Goblin for Spider-Man(Trust me I wholeheartedly believe Joker is the only villain Batman can make an excuse for), have given them MULTIPLE reasons to cross that line, they still won’t because deep down they know that it won’t just stop at one life. Even other heroes like Daredevil and Black Lightning(I know random pick), I don’t picture them killing because it wouldn’t feel right for them to abandon their morals and start becoming judge, jury AND executioner. It doesn’t make them any better than the crime lords and other malicious criminals they battle. Now Superman? He’s an interesting case. Does he need to kill? No. Not really. Superman like y’all said is a character who a lot of us need to aspire to be like. He’s the gold standard of a TRUE, aspirational hero. However, there are times when Superman killing somebody or something is kind of justified. Should he kill the everyday street criminal or even dudes like Lex Luthor? No. But villains like General Zod, Mongul, Darkseid and Doomsday(Especially Doomsday, considering he’s a literal unstoppable monster)? That I think we can understand why Superman may have to cross the line. Those are villains that simply beating them and locking them away somewhere isn’t gonna be enough. Doomsday was killed because Superman understood nothing else in this world was strong enough to put him down permanently.

[@matthewrascoe8690]

Doomsday is less a organic being and more of a fleshy terminator with bone-spurs jutting out of his body. Unlike beings with intelligence like Zodd or Mongul, Doomsday is more a single minded drone with murder on its mind; zero thoughts in itself is dedicated to self-preservation outside of adapting to what killed it the previous day.

[@alexferrana3979]

Well, crime lords are killing either out of sadism or as a part of criminal scuffles, while killing from a hero might be either a self-defense or a desperate act (like, if villain is about to blow up a bus with kids and can't be stopped unless killed). Not all killings are equal. Otherwise I agree, especially about Superman.

[@thebaccathatchews]

Are superheroes private citizens taking the law into their own hands? Are they above the law? Are they acting on behalf of an authority representing the people? Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, the X-Men, they're are all private citizens. Who would give them permission to kill? Who holds them accountable?

[@paulberry5750]

They deal with threats that normal mortals can't handle. Remember the Spider Man/Juggernaut fight? Cops Bullets bounced of off Cain Marko like marshmallows. Spidey dealt with him not the NYPD... Earth 616's authorities have to deal with vigilantes diplomatically because Civil War 1 & 2 shows what happens when they try to over manage capes...

[@dannysummers4591]

they are above the law since vigilantism is against the law

[@paulberry5750]

@@dannysummers4591 "Vigilantism" in a Superhero universe would have a few legal guidelines & a lot of legal loopholes...

[@alexferrana3979]

Someone like SHIELD or similar. But it depends on many factors. Plus, about the X-Men - Cyclops and Wolverine has killed people.

[@davidfrancisco3502]

Characters from the pulp era like Conan The Barbarian, Solomon Kane and The Shadow were killers and still deemed as heroes. You don't debate about principles with somebody who does nothing but evil.

[@146zigzag3]

I really don't understand why they shouldn't ever do it. Having most of them avoid it most of the time is fielne but just like in real life there are situations where it's the right thing to do.

[@davidfrancisco3502]

@@146zigzag3 Have you heard of Mr. A? A vigilante character created by Steve Ditko following his objetivistic moral values, Mr. A kills or doesn't attempt to save the bad guys because of a pure black & white moral code.

[@fantaientertainment4163]

Okay, but I’m pretty sure they came from a time where moral were different back then. Kinda like Kratos. We all know that he’s a god killer, but because if the time period he was in, he would technically be seen as a hero. Morals change overtime.

[@davidfrancisco3502]

@@fantaientertainment4163 No. Morality never changes, humanity never changes regardless of the time period.

[@fantaientertainment4163]

@@davidfrancisco3502 are you trolling? Or being sarcastic?

[@graymanmedia]

The X-Men is acting like Magneto

[@christopherthibeault7502]

This is usually the hardest question that comes out of the superhero comic tradition, but it's more or less an American debate. I almost never see this brought up in comics elsewhere. Francophone/Heavy Metal Magazine stories don't even consider it. Manga often just skirts it unless we're talking hardcore Berserk or anything Junji Ito. They're not afraid of addressing death. Fact is, some stories and settings are such that, while I don't necessarily insist that we go out of the way and cross that line, I'm not always going to stop people from crossing it, particularly if survival counts on it and the odds of recidivism pretty much equals one. That's why, when I look at debates over whether or not a superhero should kill, my eyes glaze over. The way I look at it, you had Deacon Blackfire and then you had Abattoir. If you know the names and can fathom the references, then you know where I'm going. A lot of other comments are either indecisive or lay the burden upon what manner of character you got. Superman is the only adult in the room full of children and cardboard, so he's going to interpose before the other adult, Dagon. There are no wrong answers anymore than correct ones when it comes to the subject. I can imagine a superhero who realizes (or believes) that he or she just killed a major villain, goes through an extreme moral panic and freeze-up, and bows out of the vigilante gig almost for good, only to discover the villain that allegedly died survived, continued unabated, and slew a few more people. If that sounds a bit corny or a stretch, it's a plot point. A very sharp plot point. Most of us refuse to entertain breaching the no-killing rule, but if a superhero was in a position to stop a bad guy and either failed or half-assed it, which then allowed for further death down the road, and there wasn't any control sample or such thing like competent police, then what's with the refusal? The only real reason you'll ever consider going down the no-killing route is when you want your character to exemplify a moral code. Not that I'm trying to piss on moral codes, either--they're always obliged and profoundly scarce--but going merely by deed or intent and never considering the consequences of letting repeat offenders go unchecked is more than likely why there's even a debate, sadly enough.

[@tommyfishhouse8050]

"I almost never see this brought up in comics elsewhere'. Honestly the entire debate over if superheroes should kill or not is absurd. It would be *mental* for fans to have this same argument about fantasy, scifi, cowboy movies. Like. Imagine if Luke Skywalker wasn't allowed to blow up the death star killing all the stormtroopers. Or if Aragorn in Lotr wasn't allowed to kill orcs. Or John Wayne or Clint Eastwood weren't allowed to shoot the bad cowboys with their guns. That's basically the argument people are making when they get on their moral high horse and say Superheroes should never kill.

[@invisiblefan2387]

I’m really more of a “break glass in emergency” kind of guy. 😅

[@paulberry5750]

Golden Age Batman had no trouble getting lethal & that eras Superman had no trouble slaying slumlords & strikebreakers. Personally, if I were a cape I'd kill fiends who threaten me or innocent bystanders. Why keep irredeemable monsters like the Joker or Green Goblin around?

[@graymanmedia]

Also the non-Killing Superhero is a purely American concept base of the self regulating environment created by the comics code in the late 50s. In Japan Superheroes like "The Caped Baldie" kill villains as a gag.

[@clydemarshall8095]

My justification for super hero no-kill rules tends to revolve around the belief in the justice system and that they do not have the right to be judge, jury, and executioner and should apprehend the villains for courts to deal with.

[@AncestorEmpire1]

I don’t remember this becoming an issue until the Arkham universe got popular. Batman killing is often, if we use reality. Those low tier thugs are gonna have worse CTE results than Chris Benoit and The Dynamite kid. And yes, I just earned my ticket to hell for that comparison.

[@Jared_Wignall]

Lot of people want Batman to kill because villains like Joker will always kill and never be reformed. And while there will always be those arguments where you would understand why he could one day kill him, Bruce Wayne he doesn’t want to take a life, especially if he can help it. Now there may be a scenario where it’s either the bad guy or innocent people who will die and there’s no way around that someone will die no matter what, Bruce as Batman will still do what he can to save everyone in such a scenario, even if he almost dies in the process. I think it’s quite something that despite what happens, Batman will not kill Joker, especially since he would be the one criminal people would basically give Batman a pass for killing. Says a lot about his moral code and I know a lot of people being up the instances where Batman killed people, especially in the first year of Batman comics. Bill Finger and Bob Kane were still figuring out Batman and who he was. The Shadow was a major influence on the two when it came to creating Batman and Finger even said he copied some Shadow stories for some of the early Batman comics as that was the main influence on the character and so like The Shadow, Batman killed criminals. But then around the time they had Robin come into the picture, he stopped killing due to the fact it probably wouldn’t be a good example if Dick Grayson saw Bruce as Batman kill criminals since he would be helping him fight crime, plus it’s likely Finger and Kane wanted to try to distance Batman from The Shadow by changing certain aspects of the character to ensure no lawsuit would ever occur and then Batman would potentially cease to continue to be made depending on what could have been in the lawsuit. There are certain Superheroes that don’t kill, even if early incarnations of some killed various criminals. Circumstances would have to be at a point where there was no other option but to kill a criminal for someone like Batman. However, things like that should only happen rarely and not have it where the X-Men just kill bad guys for the sake of killing them. They have superpowers and have the ability to kill anyone they want, yet they don’t as they restrain themselves from doing so since they want to make the world a better place and they do what they can to not kill in order to it to be a great place. Great discussion on this guys, take care!

[@JohnVmc2]

It's simpler that most people think. Usually, superheroes don't kill, they're not murderous, but sometimes, they do. When they have no chance. Simple as that. It's like the average action hero, ya know. Besides that, what would happen in the real world should not be the biggest priority into comics, the idea of being private police is, by itself, a very compelx topic, if you want to start discussing comics as real world stories, it all crumbles. That's what's crumbling this stories for the last decades, forget this bullshit.

[@2345Z]

Since you're an indie comic creator, what are your thoughts on ISOM?

[@BigMicahC]

Haven't read it so I don't have an opinion.

[@Yayofangamer16]

Yesn't